How to Heal, Let Go, and Find Faith | Dr. Thema Bryant - A Really Good Cry

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From very early on, we get bombarded with these messages
of like how our hair should be, how our face
should be, how we should dress, how our voice should be.
Some people's trauma started so early. They're like, I never
got to be whoever my authentic self is, but that
I could come home for the first time, and I
love helping people with that journey.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Doctor Tamerbrian is a psychologist, author, professor, minister, and sacred
artist who is leading the way and creating healthy relationships,
healing traumas, and overcoming stress and impression. Her life changing
books include Matters of the Heart, Homecoming, Reclame Yourself, and
The Anti Racism Handbook. Is there a thin line between
being disciplined and feeling like you're trying to control your
life too much?

Speaker 1 (00:40):
The desire for control comes from trauma, when we have
experienced moments of our lives when we were not in
control and bad things happened.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
I was thinking about, obviously, everything that's happening in America
right now, with ice and all of that. It's becoming
more and more acceptable to just say extremely racist things
on TV in public.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, it absolutely is. You know, an inflated sense of
self is developed to cover up for the insecurity and
the fear of inferiority. You know, it is driven by
that that just the presence of people who look, dress,
talk differently is a threat to my existence.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Welcome to a Really Good Cry podcast. A Really Good
Cry is here to help you understand your body, feel
confident in your skin, manage your emotions, and take back
control of your health. Because growth doesn't always start with answers.
Sometimes it starts with a really good cry. Tama, thank
you so much for coming on the podcast. I have
been researching and reading and listening to you for a while,

(01:44):
and I am obsessed. I love the way that your
words carry so much power. I know said this to
you earlier, but I just feel your words deeply in
my heart whenever i've heard you speak, and I'm just
so honored and happy to have you here.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
So thank you so much, thank you, and thank you
for the way you've been holding space for these real conversations,
because I think a lot of times things stay very surface,
and so it's beautiful like people who are willing to
go into those deeper places.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
When I was reading your bio and your introduction that
people said, I was like, you've done so much in
your life, and I would love for you to just
share how that journey started, where you started off, and
the work that you it's brought you to now. I
would love for you to share that journey with us.

Speaker 4 (02:29):
Sure, absolutely so.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Growing up I was the daughter of two ministers, so
then it all kind of makes sense.

Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yes, yes, is like in our.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
Community, in the African American community, people often would go
to a minister or like a pastor before they would
go to like a therapist or psychologist. And so growing
up I saw my dad doing pastoral counseling and I
always say, like, my first time working at like a
crisis hotline was just my childhood home because people would

(03:00):
call with all kinds of things, and it's like if
there's not a parent home, they're just going to start talking.
And it's funny how something you can get teased for
can end up being a superpower. So growing up, I
would have been called like a very sensitive kid, you know,
just feeling things very deeply, and then you go into
therapy and it's like, of course, right, of course you

(03:20):
feel it deeply. And so as I grew up, my
family operated in what we would call liberation theology. Which
is it's not just for you the individual and God,
but about your community and the collective. And so it
turns out there's an aspect of psychology called liberation psychology,

(03:43):
so to pay attention to contexts and systems and try
to bring information to people, which is why like podcasts
and books and social media help that this information isn't
just like for the elite, but like for us to
try to get the information to everyone so that we

(04:05):
can live enhance lives. And so that was a big
part of my growing up in Baltimore, Maryland. And then
when I was like fourteen, my dad was elected to
be a bishop in the African Methodist Church, and usually
your first assignment is overseas, so we moved to Liberia,
West Africa, which gave me like a global sense, like

(04:29):
the world beyond Baltimore, but also beautifully let me see
everyone in a position of authority look like me.

Speaker 4 (04:37):
Right.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
So it's one thing when people are like you could
be anything you want to be, but if you don't
see it, it doesn't feel real. But literally to go
somewhere in the head of the bank and the head
of the university and the head of the country, like
are all your reflection. So I feel it really gave
me that sense of confidence. So that years later when
I ran for president of the American Psychological Association and

(04:59):
people were like, what made you feel like you could win,
I'm like, why not me?

Speaker 4 (05:03):
Right right?

Speaker 1 (05:04):
There has to be someone to lead, so, you know,
being thoughtful about that, and so that's been my life's work,
but with a focus on trauma recovery, So whether those
traumas are childhood abuse or the trauma of oppression or war,
helping people get through hard times.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's so beautiful. Wow, what a journey, and so much
of what your parents taught you and that you lived
through is just completely shaped who you are today. And
they're so nice to carry parts of them in that way.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
It's especially beautiful. A little over a year ago, my
mom transitioned from breast cancer, but I so feel her
with me and like all of that wisdom with me.
And as we were talking before about dance, she put
me into dance class early, so whenever I'm dancing, I
feel her. So it's a beautiful legacy.

Speaker 4 (05:57):
It is.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
And that I mean the fact that they've got into
your life from such a young age. I think that
really shapes you and creates such a different perspective to
life and how you interact with people, things, what you
see the world through. It's a different kind of lens
that you get to experience it. How is your relationship
with faith and God growing up? I know that's what

(06:20):
you do now, but did it change and shift over
the years from what you were brought up with?

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yees. So one of the beautiful things I think about
my journey is going through hard times makes you ask questions,
right because and I think that's a part of like
your faith formation to wonder right, to say like, I
was told these things and then life shows up. And

(06:46):
so instead of feeling bad for your questions or for
your doubts, to say, like, now I'm making it my
own right because it has to come alive in me
if I'm told, you know that God is love and
that God wants to help us, and then you know
we have difficult times. So it's in that I think
that I cultivated actually like a deeper faith, but also

(07:10):
a transforming faith where I can I'm not put off
by hard questions, you know, and appreciating the mystery because
sometimes people give you those cookie cutter answers, and it's
just like supposed to like shut you up, like if
you're in grief and they're like God needed another angel, Like.

Speaker 4 (07:26):
No, that that doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yes, So I appreciate the mystery for the things you
know that I'm not certain about, and I also feel
very certain about, like the presence of God and the
sacredness of every person and our the joy in the
fact that we have purpose.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yes, you have a podcast and a book called Homecoming. Yes,
I would love to hear from your perspective, what does
homecoming mean to you? And how do you see it?
How do you see people for creating that in their life.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yes, so for me, the idea of being at home
with yourself is really empowering. And stress and trauma and
oppression all serve to disconnect us from ourselves. It's like
if I'm not in myself, if I'm totally just focused
on like what do you think or what'll make you happier,

(08:22):
what will make you approve of me, then I'm not
like operating in my power, my strength, my clarity. But
from very early on, we get bombarded with these messages
of like how our hair should be, how our face
should be, how we should dress like to how our
voice should be, you know. And so a part of

(08:42):
healing and liberation is coming back to myself. And I
like to say, cause some people's trauma started so early,
they're like, I never got to be whoever my authentic
self is, but that I could come home for the
first time, and I love help people with that journey.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Over the years of obviously seeing people and helping and
treating them and in your own life, what are some
of the key things you think is required for that
process to actually create that in your life day to day,
month to month.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, I think a big part of it is our
current circumstance because some of sometimes it's hard to heal
from past wounds because we're in an ongoing situation of
being stressed out and denied the truth of who we are.

(09:35):
So a part of healing is actually in relationship and friendship. Right.
It's like, when I'm in the presence of good people,
I have some breathing room, I have permission to be myself.
They're not expecting me to be a clone or to
like just agree with them about everything. So healthy spaces,

(09:56):
healthy relationships create an atmosphere that help us to come
back to ourselves, right, And that's why some relationships we
have to release because when we are with certain people,
it keeps us disconnected. So it's like if I can't
be free to being myself, like this isn't real.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, because then you end up feeling like you're just
trapped in a body in a mind that you it's
almost like you're watching a movie constantly, or you're in
a movie contry.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Right, yeah, performing like sending my representative you know if
I talk like this and do you know and I
tell our students at Pepperdine where I teach, say, if
you and their training become therapists. So the idea is,
if you get to the point of graduation and you've
lost yourself, we have robbed you. Right, if you think

(10:47):
like to be taken seriously, I just have to like
recite these things and have my little pants suit in
my field and it's like where'd you go, like go,
there is like richness in you. So I think we
learn new information and we can integrate that, but at
the core, like the special sauce is you.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, how do you balance that though, between the rules
and the regulations and the expectations of society. Of the
people around you. Even if you have a call. Let's
say your family are really supportive, you can be yourself
with them, your partner, you can. But how does someone
keep coming back to themselves when they go out into
the world and they sometimes do have to put on

(11:27):
a different suit, They do have to put their suit on,
go to work, be a different type of person than
they might be at home, Right, how do you keep
bringing yourself back?

Speaker 1 (11:36):
So one is having like the nourishing time and space
to remember yourself, right, Because if when I work, I'm
pretending and then I've surrounded myself with friends with whom
I have to pretend, then I'm going to lose I'm
going to lose myself, right, And so you know, one
example for me, I have this like sisterhood circle. We
call ourselves the Gathering. It's so nice and you know,

(12:00):
when we're in each other's presence, it's like holding up
that mirror of like remember, like that's not you. And
so you like need those voices and also like some
time with yourself. I always say, like if you wake
up at the time you have to get up, you're
already starting your day anxious. Yes, right, totally, So it's
like to have my tea, you know, to have some

(12:22):
like moments, whether it's meditation, prayer, stretching, walking, watering plants,
whatever it is, so that then when I go out
in the world, I'm already grounded, right, so then I'm
not so easily moved by other people's opinions.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's almost like what you need is it sounds so simple,
but just the quietness of your own mind. Yeah, that's
and it sounds so simple when oh yeah, I feel
like I get that all the time. But actually, noise,
it comes in so many forms. It's like energetically noise
comes in what you'll see, everything that comes through your
senses becomes noise.

Speaker 4 (12:57):
It does.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
And so how are you, like how you creating those pockets,
whether it's like driving and not playing something or you know,
I was saying that I was recording a podcast, yes,
and I was saying I realized I went got to
a point where I was taking my phone into the
shower and I was like, those were my.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
Quiet tight it's all bombarding, yeah, constantly, so you know,
and the and you know, giving ourselves grace because these
phones are designed so like keep us, keep us, But
then you know, even with some of the television platforms
now where you can like watch the whole season, so
it's like constant stimulation. And so then where's like my creativity,

(13:34):
where's my mind and my thought? And which is why
sometimes when we ask people like how are you feeling,
we give that fine in you and then I say
I'm fine, and like neither of us have life reflected
or like well, no, like how am I doing? Actually
I'm tired or I'm frustrated or I'm excited or whatever
that is of like slowing down to see like what's

(13:57):
really in my heart?

Speaker 2 (13:59):
It is interesting when you ask that question, actually because
the natural response is I'm good, how are you doing?
And actually when someone does suddenly say you know what,
today's been a bit of a difficult day, you're almost like, oh,
we're talking, We're really having a conversation.

Speaker 4 (14:15):
And it's not common.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
And sometimes you you know, you'd get the messaging that
people aren't really asking, right, it's like yeah, yeah, as
they walk away like oh fine, right, or in these
religious spaces like I'm blessed, you know, with all the
right language right, and it's like uh, because there was
a saying too blessed to be stressed, and then we

(14:39):
had to like push back on that and say you
could be blessed.

Speaker 4 (14:41):
And stressed at the same time.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
Right, It's like I'm grateful and I'm also disappointed, right,
so more.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
Room for yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, And on the note of duality of emotions, I
always think about, Okay, what does it actually look like
and feel like to be healed? Like, what does that
look like? Because I think the way that we imagine
it is, Oh, it's going to be very, very that's
going to be great. I'm gonna get to a point
where everything's going to feel easier, where everything's going to
feel smoother. But like, what does heal then happy actually

(15:11):
look like?

Speaker 4 (15:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (15:13):
So healed is I am intentional so that I am
being led by my best self instead of my wound.
Right when I'm in my unhealed place, my wound is
deciding for me. My insecurity is deciding for me, My

(15:34):
anger is deciding for me. So, uh, healed also doesn't
mean perfect, but it also means self aware enough that
like I'll notice when I'm out of order it's like
oh that, yeah, come on back. I'm more intentional, I'm
more mindful. And also when the difficulties come that I

(15:58):
can handle it better, that it's not so easy for
something to like ruin my day or devastate my sense
of myself, so I can put things in perspective.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Do you think that knowing yourself has a direct correlation
to being happy?

Speaker 1 (16:15):
You know, happiness is often circumstantial, right, but joyful like
from that soulful place is like that rooted in that knowing,
right in that clarity, So I can have joy even
things aren't like perfect and it may not be like
how I expect it to be, but like I can
cultivate that within myself. So yeah, there's a freedom and

(16:38):
joy in being who you are and accepting and appreciating
who you are, because sometimes we think we know ourselves,
but it's in that judgmental way of like I'm trash
d all these things, but like in that loving, accepting way,
you know, imperfections in all like I appreciate me.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
And on the opposite side of feeling disconnected, I wonder how, like,
how does someone go from suddenly listening to this thinking, oh,
I feel so disconnected from myself? How do I connect back?

Speaker 4 (17:12):
Like?

Speaker 2 (17:12):
What are the steps that I should be taking? What
are the things I should be doing to come back home.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Right, right, So one of the things is to know
if you realize that you're disconnected. That's step one, right,
because sometimes we're in denial or we're super busy, Like
when you're busy and distracted, you don't even notice, and
so like something happens that makes you realize, like I

(17:38):
phrased it as I miss me right. I've been busy,
maybe even productive, maybe even impressive, but I miss me right.
And so to get back to myself, there's a form
of a therapy called solutions focused therapy, and it basically
is you reflect on the seasons in your life when
you were doing the best, and then what were you

(18:01):
doing during that time that you've lost sight of. That's nice, right,
because we hold the solutions in us. It may be
like when I was my best self, I was meditating more,
or I was going on my daily walk, or I
was eating better, and so let me reclaim the practices
that are good for me, because when we're stressed or busy,
we let those things go. And it's not sustainable.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
No, it's not at all. When you've been seeing people
throughout your journey, what would you say the key you've
noticed to maintaining fulfillment throughout your life. Yeah, deep fulfillment.
And do you think that you've noticed it's always linked
to a deeper spiritual practice or a connection to more

(18:45):
than just ourself.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yes, yeah, So that fulfillment comes with purpose, comes with spirituality,
and comes with relationship. Right, So with purpose, what are
the things that when I'm doing them, I feel the
most like me? Right that it's not like I'm chasing
something or trying to prove something like this feels like me.

(19:10):
It feels good to me. So when I'm doing that
kind of living, purposeful living, it feels good. When I
take time and intention around noticing the sacred, that's good.
I always tell people when I moved out to La
at first I was in awe of like the beach

(19:30):
and the mountains, and you know, and then once you're
here for a couple of years, you're just like on
the four or five right driving past the mountains, you
don't even notice, and so like to bring the awe back,
you know, of like little kids laughing, or like elders
telling a super long complicated story. You know, it's like
that that is fulfilling and freeing. And then in our

(19:55):
community and relationships being connected to each other.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I love those. Yeah, definitely noticed the shift when I
started appreciating the smallest things in life. Yes, like so much,
like oh wow, that's a bird singing that is so beautiful.
Oh my gosh, there's like this one flower on a tree.
How amazing. Yes, But it takes what you said, noticing
and actually being present, actually being aware of what's happening

(20:19):
in your surrounding, yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
And not taking it for granted, you know, which is
so easy to do. And it's like to remember the time,
like when it was more stressful and say like, oh wow,
there was a there's a time where like we hoped
and prayed for the things we have now. Yes, and
then the way our human mind works is then we
just go to the next uh. Right, It's like you

(20:42):
make more and then you're like, but I don't have
what they have, right, Or like all of our promotions
in life and growth were that compare despair, right, So like,
let me turn off the comparison or compare to my
former self and say like, wow, I'm doing well.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
You mentioned this idea of busyness and how you can
look like you're impressive, look like you're performing really well
but actually could be so disconnected from who you actually are.
I've noticed in my life that whenever I busy myself
a lot, it makes me feel more in control, Like
it makes me feel like even though, yes, okay, I'm

(21:21):
really struggling here, but actually, if I busy myself in
other people's lives, help them guide them, like do all
those things for me, I'm like, oh, okay, I've got
control over something. Where does this desire to just control
come from?

Speaker 4 (21:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (21:33):
So the desire for control comes from trauma that when
we have experienced moments of our lives when we were
not in control and bad things happened. So we're like,
m not gonna have that happen again. If I can dictated,
it will work out well. And if other people are
in charge, sometimes they're gonna do things that don't go well.

(21:57):
And so it's really like an anxiety or a fear
that like, what would happen if I was still? What
would happen if I rested? What would happen if I
let somebody else do it, or even let someone else
help me write? What would happen? And so it causes
us to like look at those scripts we were told

(22:17):
about people who sit around doing nothing?

Speaker 4 (22:20):
Right, what was we were told? We're like, we're not
going to become.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
One of those people, And so like, oh, maybe I
want to rewrite that script that it's a beautiful thing
to be able to like sit and do nothing.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
That reminds me of my therapist when I was telling
all these situations that I feel like I really have
to be involved in and all be saying. She was like,
but what if you didn't? And I was like, well,
I think they'd be fine, but I think, but I
have to. But what if you didn't? Just what if
you did it?

Speaker 4 (22:51):
But consider what if for a week.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
You just didn't participate in this conversation. What if you
didn't tell the person how you thought they should be
living their life. What if you did, how would that feel?
I was like, well, it might feel weird for me,
but maybe it would feel better for the other person. Actually,
maybe it would be a better option.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Yeah, And it's you know, we co create these dynamics
with people, and we set up an expectation, right, So
if people expect us to always be available, to always
have the answer, you know, then like it keeps that going.
And so sometimes like say I'm not available, or to
say no, or to say you know that doesn't work

(23:34):
for me, or to say turn it back to them,
you know what do you think?

Speaker 4 (23:38):
Right?

Speaker 2 (23:39):
There's also just so much anxiety in that feeling. So
even though it makes you feel like your nervous system
is regulated, actually the more you think you're controlling or
trying to control it actually builds so much more anxiety. Yes,
because then everything you think everything's on you, it's not,
but you've created an idea in your mind. I remember
when I was going through that with my grandma put

(24:00):
Past last year, and I remember in that situation, it
was like I was here when we heard that she
had cancer, and all I was trying to do was
like control, control, control, So, no, we have to do this,
make sure you're doing this, make sure this bestially doing this.
And it was my way of trying to be somehow
have a grasp on the situation. But I was waking

(24:20):
up with so much anxiety and literally waking up like
I have to do this, I need to do this,
and my mind was telling me controlling the situation was
going to make it better. But the more I tried
to control, the more anxiety I was feeling, and so yeah,
it was a big lesson in surrender eventually over the months.
But it's a weird cycle.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
It is because the thing I'm doing to soothe myself
can add more pressure to my life.

Speaker 4 (24:47):
Right, but I can be.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Used to this like perpetual pressure, so that that actually
feels like normal because for some of us relaxing it's hard,
like that feels awkward or uncomfortable, and so like learning
how to do that.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Is there a thin line between being disciplined and feeling
like you're trying to control your life too much?

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, So when everything is disciplined and there isn't room
for like, can you have pleasure? Can you have joy?
Can you rest? Can you turn off?

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Right?

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Because when it is like this hyper performance there is
it's fear driving me versus purpose. Right when purpose is
pulling me there, it's nourishing. It can feel good to me.
You know, it's work, but I like I'm getting something
out of it. Yea, If I'm just perpetually putting out,

(25:45):
then it is you can have a resentment and what
I would call like a soul exhaustion that like even
a nap won't fix.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
No, it's yeah, you can get so overwhelming another power,
especially when you know there's not much you can control
in your life really and truly. But the thing, especially
when we're trying to hold onto the things that you
know you can't control, death being one of them, Like
you know you can't control that, but we'll try everything

(26:14):
in our power to you. And it's almost like you're
pouring all your resources of energy, of time, of everything
into things that actually we shouldn't be Like the amount
of energy that gets poured into these things we're trying
to control that you actually can't and then no wonder
you're exhausted exactly.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
And then with your example, we also have like the
distance I'm trying to like prove my investment right exactly,
I am contributing.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yes, yes, I think I had that. I've been working
on that a lot, because since I moved to America,
I've been like that so much. Oh, this is happy
to dad. Let me do this, it's this versus birthday.
Let me do this because I can't show my physical process.
Has there been times in your life where where you've
gone through not an existential quest, but a moment of

(26:59):
like question, faith or thinking, what is happening here? Like,
why am I here? What's my purpose?

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, So I'll give you an example actually from my
presidency when I was president of American Psychological Association was
twenty twenty three, and whenever people of faith for my
community would ask like how they could help, I would say,
pray for the convention. So we have like an annual
convention that's in August, and you know, you only get
one shot at it, so I wanted it to be wonderful,

(27:28):
and you know, I had people supporting and praying and
blah bah blah. So August we have this beautiful, beautiful convention.
And so then in October is when you know, everything
happened with Israel and Palestine, and so then you find
yourself in this very difficult circumstance of how as like

(27:51):
the world's largest psychological association, you know, do we speak
to the issue and halving, you know, have to get
all these different perspectives in there, Like no matter what
statement you make, some people are going to say either
you haven't said enough, or you said too much, or
what have you? And so it was a very trying time.

(28:12):
So that was October, and so the convention of been
in August. It was wonderful. Now this is October and
like everything is chaos and these like terrible messages and
all of this happening, and I was like, you know,
sacred in terms of the sacred, like, did I miss it?

Speaker 4 (28:29):
I was so focused on getting the convention right? Did
I did?

Speaker 1 (28:33):
I like misdirect my energy? Like what happened? And my dad,
who's a minister, he said this, which was like, ah,
he says, the convention was the celebration and the glory,
and now you have to carry the cross, right. I
was like, oh right, It's like, yeah, it's not gonna

(28:56):
all be glory. It's not gonna all be you know,
because we had the flash mobs, we.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
Hit singing Sweet Honey in the rock, like we have
all of that.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
But like you know, there is going to be the difficulty,
the challenge, and so to not think that you're off
course just because it's difficult, that the difficulty is a
part of the process, and you just continue to show
up and do what you can to try to move
things in the right direction.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
There is obviously just so much happening in the world,
in so much pain that's circulating energetically physically. There's just
especially here even in America, how do people go from
I think that's the question that I get messaged a lot,
and it's hard to really explain to you. But how
do you uplift yourself at a time where so much

(29:48):
feels so heavy? Like how do you even allow yourself
to be happy be joyful when you know that there
is so much collective suffering happening in the world.

Speaker 4 (29:57):
Right Such a great question.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
One of my good friends, doctor Helen Neville, when she
was the president of the Counseling Psychology Division, her theme
was justice and joy, And I think that's like kind
of the call of our times is working for justice
and at the same time cultivating joy right for ourselves

(30:20):
and others, because while our outrage may motivate us in
and of itself, like if I'm just driven by my outrage,
it's not sustainable. And also, I say to people, if
everything has to be right all over the world for
me to have any joy, I will never get to

(30:42):
have joy in my lifetime and nor the next lifetime.
And so being intentional to show up, to be present,
to do what we can for humanity, and also to
know like I am deserving of the joy that I
so desperately want to give other people right and so

(31:02):
to be able to not feel guilty about going to
sit at the beach, right, not to feel like if
I'm drinking this tea, I could say, like, there are
people in the world right now who have nothing to drink,
So now in solidarity, so we want to be thoughtful
about our own humanity and our own sustainability while we're

(31:25):
doing the work.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
It's also almost counteracting the collective pain that's happening. There
needs to be a balance of but what if we
were you were the person that was able to go
out and make two or three other people happy in
that room, or you know, rather than bringing in more
pain and more suffering, how can you then help uplift
or embrace or take on the pain that other people

(31:46):
are feeling in those situations and maybe give something back
that will help them uplift themselves through that. Or Yeah,
I think there's something to collective suffering but also something
to collective joy that you can try and count rocked
it with.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yes, so the collective joy, and I would say, uh,
our gift and maybe calling is also in putting it
in contexts right, So for example, I say, like dances
medicine and like, you know, we can dance and like
lift the mood and feel good. But also by example,

(32:21):
you know, there was you know, voter suppression happening, and
so in you know, minoritized communities, you had like these
super long lines waiting to vote because their polls have
been like systematically shut down. And so this powerful moment
I was on social media where it was in one county,

(32:42):
these super long lines of people of color waiting to vote,
and in the midst of that, like somebody put on
music and people were doing the electrics.

Speaker 4 (32:50):
Line in the line right waiting to vote.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
And so the context is a part of the joy
of like like even in this like even in this moment,
that we're able to bring in our movement and bring
in our celebration. So I would say even for those
who feel like they're kind of like calling or contribution
is like lifting people or like lightening the load, like

(33:19):
to also acknowledge the load.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah right, yes, yeah, I'd love to move on to trauma.
I know that you work with is it the Harvard
Medical School, and you were saying that you work with
victims of violence and there's a program for that that
is there a difference between coping with trauma and actually
healing from it, and how does that look different and
how can someone if there is a difference, move from

(33:42):
coping towards healing.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yes, so with with coping, we're looking at trying to
like soothe our distress, relieve our distress. So coping strategies
might be taking a bubble bath, a roma therapy, talking
to a therapists, you know, these ways of creative arts
can be, but ways of coping with my distress. In

(34:07):
terms of healing my sense of myself, some people talk
about that as meaning making right. So what is the
story I'm telling myself about why this happened? Because you
could use like meditation to cope, but still might be
blaming yourself for the assault or abuse. Right, So then

(34:30):
I'm coping, but I haven't healed my identity.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
Are they different types of therapies that you recommend if
someone's listening and they're struggling to heal from what they're
going through what they've gone through. Are there different types
of therapies that you would recommend to people.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, So there is first of all, trauma focused therapy
because sometimes people are in therapy and either they and
or the therapist is avoiding the trauma, right, be in
therapy for a long time and still haven't because because
we can work with what is brought into the room.
And so sometimes people are like, oh, I'm coming because

(35:06):
my sister's getting all my nerves, but they haven't dealt
with some really big events that have happened. And so
to shift out of avoidance and actually addressing it. In
terms of you know, approaches to trauma, there are all
different types. There's cognitive processing therapy where like you write

(35:27):
out the story of the trauma and then the therapist
helps you to identify the unhealthy thoughts that we have
in there. So in my telling of the story, I
could be blaming and shaming myself. And so then it's
not just the telling but looking at like what's the story?
And then I'm also excited that people have been doing

(35:47):
more with what we call somatic therapy or embodied therapy
or trauma informed yoga of like or praise dancing, bringing
your body into your healing. Especially the body was the
sight of the violation, right, So then if my body
is violated and I'm trying to just think my way

(36:08):
into healing, I could be missing that central part of
the fullness of me.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
The physical body stows so much emotions thought. It's like
everything is just physically manifest in our body in some way,
And there's so much to talking about something but actually
feeling it through. Where am I feeling this pain and
this heartache in my body? Like? Where is it manifesting
inside of me?

Speaker 4 (36:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (36:34):
And there's also whether liberation psychology or feminist psychology, which
says to not just put the weight on yourself, but
to recognize how these various systems are affecting us. So,
for example, if I have a woman who has body
image issues, it's one thing if I pretend that this

(36:57):
just started in your mind right of like what you
have these unhealthy thoughts, or they'll take it one generation
back and like blame your mother. You know, your mother
puts you on a diet when you were eleven, and
that's the reason why you don't accept yourself. But it's
like it's much bigger than you and your mother. Ye, right,
where you get all of these media images from the
time that we can perceive that tell us like what

(37:18):
is beautiful, what is desirable? And so of course the
further you are from that, the harder it is to
really embrace and celebrate yourself.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
And obviously we see that so much through social media,
Like social media can be used for so much good,
and I don't want to take away from that. But
if you're trying not to just shut yourself off from
social media, which is the obvious thought process when you're
like I need to get away from one of this,
let me just shut off. But it's hard because you
can shut up from social media, but then it'll show
up in movies. You can shut up from movies, but
it will show up in the news. And so how

(37:48):
do you keep coming back to this idea of what
you know to be true when ninety percent of your
life is showing you the opposite.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
So one of them is it would call like media
literacy for me to be able to see what I'm
being presented, right, It's like, Okay, I love to watch
the movies and like, isn't it interesting that all the
romantic interests like look like this person, right, and also
seeking out media that tells a different story and trying

(38:19):
to like show that to my kids of like, you know,
a different narratives, that whole piece of representation matters, and
so and even like what magazines I look at. You know,
some magazines are more intentional about celebrating the range of beauty,
and so trying to choose those things for myself, but

(38:40):
also giving myself grace for when I like slip into
those mindsets. So you know, there's this fascination, you know,
with youth, and everyone wants like a compliment is to
not look your age, right, and so so it's easy
to like to get pulled into that of like, oh great,
it is a great compliment that I don't look my

(39:02):
age instead of like, you know, what does it mean
to be like fifty and fabulous? To embrace that and
feel good about it.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
You know, I can so relate to that, but especially
living in LA where everything is about like not having
lines on your face, trying to avoid looking anything older
than like sixteen. And it's really interesting because what I
have to keep reminding myself of is one that this
body is the least interesting thing about me. And I

(39:32):
remember like, and I always remember my grandma when I
talk about this, because she looked in the mirror maybe
once a day throughout her life, maybe, and everything else
was so much more interesting about her life that she
never commented about her body, And that's the one person
that I can think of in my whole life that
never commented anything about her own body. I look find this,
I don't look nice in this. My face looks like this.

(39:53):
But I think it's reminding yourself constantly. But then what's
tricky is you could say to someone I really I
don't care about the lines of face, but how are
you actually feeling about it? And so I think there's
like these It's two things. It's the how do I
retrain my mind to actually look in the mirror and
not first see the lines near my eyes? But then

(40:13):
it's also the words that we use. And I don't
think you have to wait to feel it before you
say it. I think actually the words are so powerful
that you're using every single day. And so if someone says, oh,
you actually look so much younger than thirty five, say oh, no,
I actually feel great being thirty five, rather mean thank
you so much and allowing yourself to feel so content
and create happiness from that those words that have been

(40:38):
fed to you. How do you remind yourself that, actually, no,
that's great that they think that, but I feel so
great in my body being thirty five.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yes, it's so such a good point you're making about
how sometimes our words can outpace our hearts right to
help shift our hearts. And I think about Eve Ensler,
who did the vagin A Man of Logs. She was
in an interview and she was saying, you know, living
in this culture and climate, you know, there isn't really

(41:09):
a woman in particular who could say like they love
every aspect of their physical self. But she was saying,
despite that, it's like a revolutionary act to look in
the mirror or look at yourself and say I love it, right,
I love it, even if a part of me is
like you know, do I it's like to just proclaim it,
to start to like shift ourselves.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Yes, And what a ripple effect that has on your
children and other people. Like the fact that I can
think of my grandma and say, wow, I've never heard
her say one negative thing about her body.

Speaker 4 (41:41):
That's fascinating it is.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
And then if I saw if my friend was like
rocking whatever she was rocking, and even though she felt
a little bit insecure, but I'd be like, wow, that's
such a courageous thing to do. And the more you
do it, the more you allow other people to feel
that way about themselves too. Yeah. And on that note,
for people who are on social media like me, I
would love to hear your advice or you know, do

(42:05):
you have any words of wisdom that you could share
with people who do have a platform that micro, macro
whatever is that influence people or that have some sort
of influence over people. What should people be really reminding
themselves of and keep taking into consideration because I think
it could be taken really lightly these days, and I

(42:26):
have to remind myself of it all the time.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yes, it is so important for us to think about
the fact we are curating a gallery.

Speaker 4 (42:36):
Yeah right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
So when people visit my gallery which is my page,
what do I want them to come away with?

Speaker 4 (42:44):
Right?

Speaker 1 (42:45):
And and how am I giving that message over time?
And do I give myself permission for when the message
may change right or may have different layers to it.
Social media being a bunch of galleries. There are galleries
you can visit which make you feel worse about yourself,

(43:07):
you know. There are galleries which are deflating, there are
galleries that thrive on like drama and put downs, and
there are galleries that either inspire us or educate us
or motivate us, or give us an exhale, even for
people who you know, if you're giving us a cooking recipe,
that one that like we could actually cook the thing

(43:27):
and that would be great, or even if we don't
cook it, and it's just like a breath of fresh
air of like, oh, I'm gonna watch you make it
that like that looks fun or that looks good and
like and that I'm intentional about putting that out in
the world.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yeah. I remember when I was first starting to create. Naturally,
you think everything has to be curated and perfect. I
remember getting these messages and at first I was a
little bit offended, and then I realized how powerful it
actually was. I remember getting messages from girl saying, I
just love how you embrace like that. You don't have
a model's body, but it makes me feel so comfortable
in my body. And at that time, I was like,

(44:02):
but I really want a model was bodying me. But
as time has gone on, like I've been posting a
lot of my fitness stuff lately because I'm training for something,
and there's been so many times where I've seen these
videos and I've been like, oh my god, my Tommy
looks so weird in this or this doesn't fit me right,
or it's pressing me in the wrong way, and my
natural instinct would be like just cut that bit out.

(44:23):
But then I'm like, well, no, yes, like why would
why am I doing it? For what?

Speaker 4 (44:29):
To be seen?

Speaker 2 (44:30):
In what way? And it's liberating for me. I can
speak from my own experience where I'm like, Okay, great,
that little pouch in my belly that's out there now
the world can see it. I've exposed it. We're good.
But also the knock on effect that it has, I'm like,
that's amazing, Like how how wonderful that me embracing that
part of my body, such a minor thing, has become

(44:51):
something that does that for someone else. So I always
remember that when I'm about to like crop something out, Okay.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
I love it is that it's you know, So what
is my message? That our authenticity is more than acceptable, right,
and that it's a gift to be real in everybody
in every form that we take. And I think about
you know, when I first asked, because my podcast was
audio for the longest, when I first shifted to video,

(45:17):
when I was going to record the first time, I
like when it got my makeup done and then it's like,
oh now it's like sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
It's nothing wrong I would make up, but like if
I if I have time or motivated to do that,
and if it's gonna be me and my natural face
with some lip gloss, then that is more than enough.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
I think A big part of that comes with feeling
a connection to your soul. Like we were mentioning, the
strong your connection is to something more than just your
physical body, the more that it's a reminder every day
that it isn't the most important thing about you, that
it changes, that it evolves, that it's part of life
for this body to change. But the focal point being

(46:01):
but what am I doing for my soul? What am
I doing for my heart? And is that in balance?
Am I focusing ninety percent on my body and ten
percent on my soul? And is that reflective of how
I'm feeling?

Speaker 4 (46:10):
Insight?

Speaker 1 (46:11):
And you know, so much on our bodies and nothing
on content, right, So we were you know, you can
be like all made up and have the right outfit
and like there's nothing there and so being thoughtful and
intentional about that, like on purpose.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, yes, on purpose taking away social media. One thing
I think is quite difficult just living in society is
trying to remember the value of who you are, even
though the things that are valued in the world are
so different. So if you have money, generally you're valued
in certain areas. If you have beauty you're valued in
certain ways. If you have affluence of some kind or

(46:51):
power of some kind, you're valued in different ways. And
then I think a lot of people feel not lost,
but invisible and insignificant in the world. So in a
world where it is like that and it seems like
it hasn't changed even though things are changing, the core
of it doesn't, I think it's really hard for people
to find significance in themselves without trying to find it

(47:14):
in those things.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Yeah, it is the idea of worthiness and sacredness that
it's not tied to performance, right, So it's like if
I just sat here doing nothing, am I enough? And
you know this goes also back to like the trauma
piece or oppression, where we can constantly feel we have

(47:38):
to like prove like that I'm worthy of taking up space,
or like if I'm smart enough or cute enough or
funny enough, Right, then I'll be chosen. Yes, And it's
like without jokes, without like all the degrees, without all
the makeup, Like I am a living soul, and that's
like a really beautiful thing to be.

Speaker 4 (48:00):
It is.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
I was thinking about, obviously, everything that's happening in America
right now with ice and all of that, and how
racism has you know, gotten to a point and it's
been like this obviously for generations, but it's becoming more
and more acceptable to just say extremely racist things on
TV in public, almost like even more so than it

(48:23):
has been for a long time. I don't know whether obviously,
I'm sure you've noticed that. And then I was thinking
about it in relation to worthiness, and in my mind,
I was like, wait, if the only thing that you
are able to feel superior about is the color of
your skin, that must mean you have so much lack,
so much insecurity in yourself that you cannot find any

(48:46):
more worthiness in yourself except for this one thing, and
so you create this whole superiority complex based on this
one thing. And I don't know, it just kind of
came to you this week and I was like, Wow,
it's so much insecure that racism is based on.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
Yes, it absolutely is. It is you know, an inflated
sense of self is developed to cover up for the
insecurity and the fear of inferiority, and so that is
you know, it is driven by that that just the
presence of people who look, dress, talk differently is a

(49:26):
threat to my existence.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Such an interesting psychology, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
It really is.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
And so the role of then dismantling it is in
parts psychological. I like to say racism is interdisciplinary, so
it uses every system to promote itself, the legal system,
the educational system, the banking system. And so then to
dismantle it will require each of us in our different systems.

(49:54):
So like the media is a system, and so then
you use your platform to like this mantle, disrupt to
name it right for the insecurity inferiority that it is.
You know that psychologists do their part, educators through their part,
parents do their part, Politicians do their part to shift
the tide. But it is, you know, if we take

(50:17):
it on an individual level, anyone who feels good about
themselves doesn't spend their conversation and energy talking about how
terrible everybody else is. Right, they don't even mention them.
So I don't want to plug certain restaurants. But there
was like a joke about like, when you're the lead restaurant,
you don't do commercials about the other restaurants because it

(50:39):
doesn't you know, what doesn't matter. But when all of
my time and energy is on monitoring other people and
demonizing other people, it's like, because I'm afraid I am
not enough.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
And you have to constantly tell tell people how horrible
or how terrible someone else is to try and make
yourself haught.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Yeah, and it's amazing because it is the act of
dehumanizing others dehumanizes the very person who's doing it.

Speaker 4 (51:10):
Wow. Could. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
So it's like if I am saying that immigrants are
animals or criminals or and so they are not deserving
of human rights, as I'm cheering for that, Like when
people are literally treating children this way, treating women and
men elders this way, the part of my own humanity

(51:38):
that I have to disconnect from for that to either
be acceptable or praiseworthy means I've lost my own humanity.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
Like I was trying to.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Say they're not human, and by me doing that, I
surrendered my own humanity.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
You've an anti racism handbook, how don't you, Yeah, could
you share?

Speaker 4 (51:56):
You know?

Speaker 2 (51:57):
I think a lot of us think we know me
myself included about the systemic racism that happens, and I
think I know, but I actually think we have no idea,
and I became more aware of it. I went to
this event called fifteen Percent Pledge, and it was really
interesting for me to learn that even now black owned
businesses are given the tiniest portion of the shelf space,

(52:20):
even for businesses in huge stores. And so I would
love to hear a little bit more about the book,
but also share some stats or anything that you think
people should really know.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
So it's important to know that racism is not only individual,
but as you're making reference to its systemic is structural,
it's institutional. So why is that important? We often are
more comfortable with the word bias, right, because that kind
of die like everyone has biases, and that is true.

(52:55):
But at the same time, when I only think about
it as a bias, then it's that some people might
not like me. And so what do we teach children
to do if people don't like you? You just avoid them? Yes, right,
It's like if you know, three doors down for me,
a neighbor's racist. I'm just not going to go to
their house and I'm just going to keep living my life.

(53:15):
So when we only think about it as individual actors,
we miss the ways in which it is baked into
our structures and systems. And so in acknowledging that is
to recognize it's unavoidable, right, I can't just avoid racism

(53:36):
when we look at the educational system, the curriculum of
like even the movement to make it illegal to speak
about American history, right, like to that if you speak
about the truth of our nation, you're somehow being divisive
or unpatriotic, right, you're being hateful when you're only speaking

(53:58):
the truth of what has happened. So it's in the
educational system, it's in the banking system. So we have
research that's called an unconscious bias, where so some people
hate and fear other groups and they know it. Sometimes
people are not even aware that it exists for them.

(54:18):
And so some of the studies that have been done
with that is you give out college applications and you
change nothing on the application, but the race or people
are applying for a job, the resumes the same. We
just change the gender or race, and people racism and
sexism shows up time and time again where you're just

(54:39):
less likely to even get the opportunity, which is why
some parents will say they gave their children, for example,
gender neutral names. They're like, I don't want people to
know from reading the application that my child is a
girl or woman, or the way people respond to you
have an ethnic sounding day.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Yeah, that's why my husband parents call them Amy and Jay.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Look at that, right. So it's like people are moving
strategically because this stuff exists and it's real. And so
in terms of you know, you were saying with businesses
the ways in which black farmers have been penalized and
not given the grants, that now white farmers are experiencing

(55:23):
that as well, and they're like, this is outrageous, and
it's like, yes, it is outrageous right now. In terms
of science, there were some scientists who were like, oh,
I don't protest. I'm a scientist. I'm not into social justice.
Until then science came under attack and it was like,
if you are doing research studies, you're given like these

(55:45):
list of words that the federal government does not want
to fund. And on that list is not only black
and Latinos, the word women on the list is trauma.
So these ideas of like what we're not been supposed
to speak to our dress under the guise of like
things will be fair if we don't talk about these things,

(56:07):
if we don't look at these things, and uh, the
very opposite is the case.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
It's so interesting because even when you think about justice
for women and the way that you know, the world's evolved, now,
I feel like there's this thing where women are just
asking for too much. We're going on about it too much.
You go on about racism too much. It's going on
about women too much. And it's but it hasn't even
got to equal, So how is it too much? But
it seems like just because people are talking about it more,

(56:36):
people are getting tired of listening to it. And I'm like, well,
imagine how tired everyone's feeling it. Yes, it is, but
it's so interesting.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Fasterful gas lighting, right to say the problem is that
people talking about it, not the issue itself. But it's
a very effective strategy because then you have people, before
they say something, say well, I don't want to play
the race card or not to bring up gender. But
and so to create an atmosphere where the naming of

(57:06):
it is problematic is a way for the behaviors to
continue and to be supported.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
It's also the studies and the research that's been done.
For example, let's talk about prisons. If they're doing studies
on the amount of ethnic minorities or people of color
that are in prisons. The type of research that's being done, one,
you're arresting more people who are of color, so of
course there are going to be more people in prisons
that are of color, but then using that information to
say that they are now dangerous. So because there are

(57:35):
more people of color in prisons, that means more prisoners
are of color, which means that on the street, you
should be more careful if there's a person of color
on the street, right, But it's all their own resources
out there.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Yes, So creating structures and systems that reinforce the belief. Right,
So if we are more likely to put children of
color in special education, and then we promote the idea
where they're just not as intelligent. Right, So you go
across the country and in the you know, in these
gifted classes they are more likely to be all white.

(58:10):
So then you have this idea, falsely that we must
be more intelligent because look at the composition of the classes,
not looking at the evaluation process, the assessment process. This
even shows up in mental health that you know, we
we are can hospitalize people when they're considered a threat, right,

(58:32):
so if you're a threat to yourself or others, then
we can mandate that you have to be hospitalized. So
then you consider race and gender. Who was considered to
be a threat? Like who can stand there and yell
until you know, the sun goes down and people are like, oh,
they're just upset, right, yes, but who if they slightly

(58:54):
raise their voice? Is like, we were all afraid, so
we had to call the authorities.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
It's a difficult thing to write your head around. And
I wonder when people come into a church or come
into a spiritual place and they're like, yeah, but why
is this happening? And like, is there a way to
spiritually make sense of this and help people to understand it,
help people get through it. Yeah, I guess that's just
it's just the thought that came to my mind because
even even for me, every time these things happen from

(59:22):
my culture, I'm always just like, but why, Like why
is this happening? Yea, And how can you make sense
of it? And how can you believe in God and
believe in that there's more? But then also notice that
so much is happening.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
Yes, so a big piece is greed. And so when
we are actually disconnecting from our spiritual selves and instead
have an insatiable thirst for resources, yes.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
And.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Even the hope that one day we could have those
resoce sources, then that can motivate us to dehumanize other people,
because then the message is these are the people who
are stopping you from being rich, right right, So if
we could either lock them all up or get them
out of the country, then you could have great jobs,

(01:00:17):
and you could have all the money in a big
house and like in, your life will be wonderful, and
so it's like, yeah, then my life.

Speaker 4 (01:00:25):
Will be great, right right. We got to get rid
of them.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
If we get you know, these women are getting promoted
too much, if we get them back in the home
and learning what it really means to be a woman,
then you could have that position and you could have
money and power and wealth. And so it is this
scarcity mentality that there is not enough and that everyone
else is the enemy to your own success. So then

(01:00:52):
people even people who are impoverished will vote along the
lines that go against their own well being under the
hope that these wealthy people are going to pave the
way for my wealth.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
Yes, I find with them. You know, there's a big,
big difference that people like to make between being spiritual
and being religious, and I think from speaking to people
who struggle with the idea of religion, I find that
a big part of it is this feeling of shame
and guilt and this idea of punishment that comes with

(01:01:31):
believing in God. If you believe in God, God, you know,
God has the ability to punish you. And I'd love
to get your perspective on it, because you know, I
believe God is just all loving and wants the best
for you, and you have a personal relationship with God.
But there are you know, parts of religion that do
make you God fearing, and I'd love to just touch
on that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Yeah, that's a great question, And I like to name
that most people who are religious, if they study and
speak to like the teachings of their religion, it would
also require a spirituality. So you know, we think about
spirituality often as this like internal or individual process, and

(01:02:13):
then religion as like this collective endorsement of a set
of doctrines or beliefs and practices.

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
So there are people who are spiritual and not religious.
There are people who are religious and not spiritual, and
there are people who are both. So it's like a
part of a collective but also having this individual process.
What I like to remind people one is that whenever
you have human beings involved in something, there are going

(01:02:42):
to be people who misuse it, people who use it
to justify wrong, and then there are going to be
people who use it for the collective good.

Speaker 4 (01:02:53):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
So it's not that in and of itself it is
bad or good. It's used in a particular way that
can be uplifting or that can be oppressive, And so
it's important for us to hold space for like those
range of experiences. Have some people used it to like

(01:03:14):
shame and reject and enslave others, Yes, Have some people
used it for liberation and healing?

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
Yes? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
And then I appreciate your nose, your idea about like
your idea of who God is. This is a really
important question, not just do I believe in God or
God's or a God is, what is the nature of
the God I believe in. So in psychology we have
positive religious coping and negative religious coping. So with positive

(01:03:46):
religious coping, it's this idea that God or my higher
power is out for my good, loves me, wants me
to win, is there to help me, is guiding me.
And then negative religious coping is God is angry at me.
God hates me. God is out to make my life
terrible because because God is mad right, and so then

(01:04:09):
it's not just who do I believe in or what
do I believe in?

Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
How do I understand what.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
That is right? And is it loving right? Is it compassionate?

Speaker 4 (01:04:21):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
An example I like to use is like my best
friend knows me and knows like if I chose, if
I do something that's problematic, they know something is going
on with me, that I'm off right, like I was
off or I was whatever it was. So then my
friends show me grace. They don't, you know, endorse everything

(01:04:42):
I do, but they show me grace, love, compassion. So
if my friend can do that based on their knowledge
of me, then God, being all knowing, all loving, can
see me with grace, with tenderness and desire for me
to have a fulfilling life.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Yeah, I always think about like if there's such a
big difference between being God fearing and God loving, or
like feeling that God loves you or feeling that, oh,
I didn't do my practices today, I'm going to get
punished for it. I didn't do my rituals today, I'm
going to get punished for it. It actually if something,
if your thought process is taking you further away from

(01:05:20):
God or the universe or whatever everyone wants to call
the creator. But if someone is taking you something is
taking you away from that connection, that's a sign that
that belief might not be a belief that you want
to have. And so I think it's a really difficult
it's difficult to read because, like you said, humans, the

(01:05:41):
word and the messaging and the scriptures could be so beautiful,
but the way that we translate them, depict them, share
them with the world, it can be really damaging to
people's connection to their faith and can be quite detrimental,
which is why having a personal connection is just so important.
Studying yourself is so important, and creating this idea of

(01:06:04):
what even is God to me not everybody else, is
such an important thing to navigate.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
It's so true and I love the example you gave
because some of us develop a transactional relationship. And even
for people who are spiritual, sometimes it becomes like if
I didn't meditate, that I'm not I didn't do it
enough minutes, I didn't go on the silent retreat, I'm
not a good person. Then it becomes like what is
motivating it? What is drawing it?

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
So?

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Then am I praying or meditating because it is nourishing
to me? Or just because I read or was told
I'm supposed to? So if right, I had to be
terrible for me if I don't, so is it duty
and obligation or relationship and that this actually feeds me?

Speaker 4 (01:06:51):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
And I will say that get what you know? The
individual is important around like clarity and having that personal relationship.
There's also a gift in.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Community right to come together.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
Right like singing together, dancing together, donating our resources together,
even studying sacred text together, because like you said, you
know how we're interpreting it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
I remember my godmother, doctor Rinita Weems, is a womanist theologian,
so looking at the Bible from the experiences of black women,
and she was preaching this text and you know the
text had like abuse of women in it, and she,
you know, said and this is a suspect text.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
And I was like, what, like can you say that?

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
And started asking the questions about like who told the story,
like who has voice in the story? Whose voice do
we hear? The voice do we not hear? And that
you know. So that's a part of what we can
do in community is start to like to look at it,
to study it, to say what was happening during that
time and how does that relate to me now? And

(01:08:06):
how you know, how might that look in today's circumstance.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
I love that that's a suspect, right, we can analyze this.
What Yeah, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing.
Is ending on any kind of prayer that you say
to yourself or to God in a difficult time that
you're going through. Do you have something that speaks to here?

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
Yes? So when I am just gonna make it a
sentence is make me ready, make me ready for whatever,
because I don't know the fullness of the assignment, the calling,
the who I'm gonna interact with today, So whatever is
going to show up, make me ready.

Speaker 4 (01:08:46):
Make me ready?

Speaker 2 (01:08:47):
Is that your daily Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
That also helps me around patience and time, because some
of us have dreams for ourselves, and you know, as usual,
we put like a time on it, like I want
this by the time I'm thirty, by the time I'm
by the time I'm fifty, like you know, and it's
nice to have like goals. And at the same time,
there's a preparation process where sometimes the door hasn't opened

(01:09:13):
because I'm still in preparation, and so I give thanks
that I'm being made ready.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
Make me ready. Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you
so much.

Speaker 4 (01:09:24):
Thank you. I so enjoyed speaking with you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Me too, me too, thank you for that. It's going
to be so healing for so many and everybody please
go check out Tama. She is just so wonderful. She's
got social media, You've got your podcast, so many books
which I'll be sharing on our page. But yes, thank
you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Oh, thank you.

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How to Heal, Let Go, and Find Faith | Dr. Thema Bryant

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