Jay Bilas & Seth Greenberg: What’s REALLY Broken in College Hoops (PLUS Generational 2026 NBA Draft)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Unplugged.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
I felt this conversation was so important to have that
we're not even really going to talk about football this
week and about my Niners getting their ass kicks, So
you guys cannot say nothing because we're going to do
something else this week.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
But all jokes aside.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Something you guys know if you follow this show, I've
been very adamant about, and it's the NC Double A
and the wild wild West in which these student athletes
so called are running in.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
You know, we've pointed.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Out a lot of the issues with it, but today
I brought a panel of experts so to speak, in
the space and we're going to talk a little bit
about obviously the issues, but also what are some resolutions,
what are some ideas, what are something that the NC
Double A. Because we know they're probably going to see this,
you know, can can take from this and what you

(00:53):
guys can take from this as fans. So I want
to start off before I introduce my guests, I want
to start off with this edit of coach cal and
Tom Izzo and their thoughts on kind of what the
NCAA is in Stansville right now.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Take a look, well, look, I don't blame coaches. You know,
I've got friends that are playing with twenty seven year
olds and they feel bad. I said, don't feel bad.
We don't have any rules. Why should you feel bad?
But let me give you this real simple. The rules
bes the rules.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
So if you.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Put your name in the draft, I don't care if
you're from Russia and you stay in the draft, you
can't play college basketball. Well, that's only for American kids.
What does anybody care what this is doing for seventeen
and eighteen year old American kids? Do you know what
this opportunity has done for them and their families? There

(01:54):
aren't going to be any high school kids who other
than dumb people like me are going to recruit high
school kids. What's the percentage of kids that make the NBA?
Unless you play for me, what would be the percentage? Like,
it's like one percent or less. With killer, that means
ninety nine percent of the college players that are getting money,

(02:15):
it's fool gayzy foo gayzy.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Because mob talk.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
They're getting four hundred, five hundred eight hundred a million
and they're not pros. So now they have to go
get a job after four stops, no college degree, no
loyalty from the state or the program or anybody. You
were a mercenary. Okay, now you've got to go get
a job. I don't care what a kid makes, it doesn't,

(02:43):
but I do care what we're doing to young people.

Speaker 5 (02:46):
Do Shame on the NCAA, you know, shame on the
coaches too, But shame on the NCAA because coaches are
going to do what they gotta do, I guess. But
the NCAA is the one, those people on those committees
that are making those decisions to allow something so ridiculous
and not think of the kid. So everybody talks about

(03:08):
me thinking of my programer selfish, No, get that straight.
For all of you, I'm thinking of what is best
for my son if he was in that position.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Now, I'd like to welcome to the show analysts and experts.
These guys' resumes are endless, but two guys I enjoy
listening to Jay Billis and Seth Greenberg Fellas. Thank you
guys for joining us today. So on the heels of
hearing Coach cal and Coach Izzo, my perspective is kind
of too pronged. First and foremost, I've built a platform

(03:39):
to be able to be a concerned dad at this point.
I'm someone who did at the highest level for a
long time. I coach now I have kids that are
seventeen years old, and then I also have two other
sons coming down the pipeline. So my first and foremost
in which both these guys coach cal and coach Izzo.
From a dad's perspective, how many opportunities are we taking
away from these seventeen and eighteen year old late teenans

(04:01):
honing their skills someone like me, I was a four
year guy Shane Battier, four or five year guy that
needed all the time in college to make this jump.
Now we have grown ass men with mortgages and kids
and spousal support being paid twenty seven to twenty eight
year old guys. And again, at no fault do I
fault the players because there are the rules allow this,

(04:22):
and no do I do. I not fault the coaches
as well, because the job is to win. But if
we're talking about kids trying to hone their skills and
make that one percent jump, all those spots have been taken.
And then, also, as a former player, someone who got
a chance to go to the tournament four times.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Lost to Jay Wills.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
I think two team or one team that won the
national championship and just what that meant for me being
an eighteen nineteen and then twenty one year old doing
it and then having that leap. So, fellas, I've done
a lot of talking. I brought you on, so you
guys can do a majority of the talking. Who wants
to start? But where I think we start with the
grassroots and what do you guys feel like grassroots American

(05:06):
grassroots is compared to the influx of younger talent coming
from over the water.

Speaker 4 (05:11):
Is well, I mean I could start. I think there's
a lot to complain about in junior basketball, and it's
a lot of it. I would say too much of
it is about money. In too many areas, all you
have to do to be a coach is by a whistle.
And do I think that's the right way. No, But

(05:32):
we've complained about this kind of stuff for a long
long time now. And look, I went through it with
my son. I coaches AU team. I didn't really care
for the scene, but at the same time I tried
to do something about it. I started my own basketball
camp that had a coach's development program and a leadership program,
and so you try to do the best you can
in your backyard. What I would say, Matt is, to me,

(05:54):
there's a difference between grassroots in high school and what
goes on in college because when you played and when
I played, and I played a lot, a lot longer
before you than most, but it was pro basketball back then.
There was just an illegal restriction on our wages and
what we could accept. The television contracts were the same

(06:17):
as the NBA in the NFL, in Major League Baseball,
and the money is the same now. So I mean,
the NCAA has never really admitted what it was doing.
It tried to say, well, we're about this when they
were really about professional sports that was illegal, illegally restricting
the athletes. But I don't think we can run these

(06:38):
kind of these kind of sports where money is such
a big end game and pretend that it's not going
to filter through all of it. And to me, I
think it's it's more individual Like you played. That sound
from cal and Iszo two of the best people in sports.

(07:00):
And while I share some of their sentiments, truth is
they don't know the rules. They're complaining about the rules,
and they don't know them. There's never been an age
restriction in college. We've always had twenty seven year olds.
And while we love to talk about percentages that go
on and play, what are the percentages of guys that
are over twenty four years old. It's minuscule relative to

(07:21):
the whole. So I think we're complaining about the wrong things.
And my thing is, if you don't want a player
like Baylor has in James Naji, who went through the
draft process, never signed an NBA contract, never played an
NBA game, don't recruit them and you're good.

Speaker 6 (07:35):
I agree with a lot of what you said, Jay,
but I also disagree and one thing, and it's not
a big thing. But in terms of the rules, the
rules have not changed in terms of how the culture
college basketball has evolved. If rules haven't changed in America
compared to overseas, because to me, professional basketball or college
basketball overseas is your club team. I mean it's playing said,

(07:56):
what's your club team? The players overseas grow up your
club teams. You know, Matt, you talked about player development
and grassroots basketball, the club organizations overseas. The one thing
about it is the coaches are certified, the club organizations overseas,
there is an incredible amount of discipline teaching the House

(08:17):
and Whise concepts, player development and accountability at a younger age.
They're playing a lot of these young players, talented players
are playing with the senior team or the professional team,
and therefore they're being held accountable just like the professional
players are being held accountable. Where in our system right now,

(08:37):
all right, grassroots basketball, You're only as good as the
organization are involved with. They're good and bad and everything
in life. There are programs that care about player development.
They are co programs that care about character development. They're
programs that are teaching kids how to plague. You get
maybe two or three days a week in a summer,
in a spring and a fall where those programs overseas,
But some of those.

Speaker 7 (08:57):
Kids are practicing twice a day.

Speaker 6 (08:59):
I mean, it's a twenty four hour hour, seven day
a week player development, concept development program. I was fortunate
enough to have some guys from the Benetton group, from
the old Benaton basket you know, where so many great
players you know came from. Coho coach Patrivick, all those guys.
But those youth programs were basically our prep schools on steroids,

(09:22):
and so like the European players to me that are
able to do what say James Dodgy did.

Speaker 7 (09:31):
One he was a pro and he.

Speaker 6 (09:34):
Signed multiple contracts, he was drafted, but because he did
not enroll in a college university, he's eligible to play
in America because he was playing club sport in overseas,
where the American model is to go from high school
to college to the NBA, and I think it's just different.
The ns nobles adequated. Let's face it, it's adiquated so

(09:57):
far behind the times and has not.

Speaker 7 (09:59):
Changed with the culture of what's happened in the sport.

Speaker 6 (10:02):
So I think we've got to We've got to figure
out a way to just besides USA Basketball, find better academies.

Speaker 7 (10:08):
For these young players to be developed.

Speaker 6 (10:11):
And then in terms of the rules, I think we
do have to find a way to unify the rules
for so many different ways, not just in terms of
international and American because that's why these chi Leigue players
are turning trying to play college basketball again, because you know,
these European players have been pros for years and years
and years and now they're allowed to play college basketball.

(10:32):
So we've got to find a way to kind of
mirror the two organizations and then come up with set
of rules that are best for the enterprise and also
best for the players.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Jay, I want to push back a little bit on
the nausea situation at Baylor, but I want to start
with the grass roots and Seth I completely agree. Just
the structure, the care, the time that goes into overseas
development compare to ball Over on this side. I mean,

(11:05):
they say, you know, those guys practice possibly twice a day.
I'm not sure about the younger, but the other teams
practice twice a day. Younger kids will practice the entire
week to play one game. We will practice one time
to play a weekend or sometimes four or five.

Speaker 1 (11:21):
I've seen six games before.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
It's unbelievable and gone are the days that coaches had power.
And I say that from high school, hete you college
and even the pros now like this is players in
their families at the grassroots level. And then you know,
obviously big money in the NBA players do not have

(11:43):
a leg to stand on. Discipline, principal morals, anything you
stand on. You have an opportunity to at the grassroots
level loose him to another club. At the high school level,
loose them to another school college jumping the portal, and
the pros get your ass fire, you know what I mean.
So gone are the days that the coaches void really
carried weight. So to me, now we see and again

(12:05):
let's not overthink this, because I think we see the
last handful of NBA MVPs have been.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Over the water players.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
We still have a lot of very talented American players.
But again, I think the development of this younger game.
I think my and I hate to sound old, and Jay,
I'm glad you said you're a little bit older, but
we came up in a different time. Like we played up.
We never played down. We never wanted to play down.
I was fourteen playing with thirteen fourteen going across the

(12:34):
street to play with the varsity team.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Kids.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
We came up in a different way. We worked hard,
we grinded. It was on camera, and we had to
go through adversity. Sometimes you had to sometimes you had
to sit on the bench and learn and drive that
to get you better. But now I just think kids
get handed things that we had to work for, and
that really hurts their development, That hurts the odds, and

(13:02):
it really kind of clugs up the pipeline, and I
kind of want you to get your guys' thoughts on that.
And then Jad, I definitely again want to address the
Baylor player situation, but just kind of the way that
the AAU kids in format were kids. It's just it
starts there. It's the wild wild West with AU. Some
kids are playing on multiple teams and all kinds of stuff.

(13:24):
So what are your guys thoughts in that?

Speaker 4 (13:25):
Well, I mean when I went through with my son,
he graduated twenty nineteen from Wake Forest, so you know,
I coaches AAU team and basically the way I saw it,
the parents and the players were essentially consumers, so they
were looking for the best situation for themselves in order

(13:45):
to move forward in the game to the best they wanted.
But you know, just like callan Izzo, I think Cal
was saying, you know, what percentage of players in college
are going to go on and play in the NBA. Well,
if you look at it like that and go to
the high school ranks and the grass dranks, what percentage
of those guys are going to play in college and
play in the NBA. We're talking about a minuscule percentage.

(14:05):
So in a sense, we're like, what are we worried
about it? And we're talking about how we're handling our
best players, uh and developing our best players. Are we
talking about what's the best thing for the overall? For
the players to have the most fun, to get the
best experience, to learn the most and get the most
life lessons and all that that we all think that
sports provide. I don't know what the ultimate goal is here,

(14:27):
but you know, from from my perspective, you know, we're
going to try to put our son in the best
position for him to one have a good time and
enjoy the experience. We wanted to balance the amount of
time he spent at home versus the amount of time
he spent on the road. I think I think way
too many of these young players are on the road
all summer. And not to devolve into this stuff, but

(14:50):
I used to work the old Nike skills academies. I
was a skills instructor for Nike, and I remember one
time one of the Nike executives telling us, with this,
you know, top like Lebron James Skills Academy or something.
We got to keep the player's energy up. Remember they've
been on the road for sixty straight days, and you're like,
keep their energy. If they've been on the road for
sixty straight days, let's give them a day off. Like

(15:10):
why are why are we trying to like amp their
energy up when they don't have any. You know, I
think everybody has to ask themselves, what's what's the responsibility
we have individually? You know, the parents, what situation you
want to put your kid in? Or guardians, what situation
your kid going to be in? When you're coaching a team,
what are the lessons you want to provide? How often

(15:31):
should you play? Used to drive me crazy. We lived
in Charlotte. We live in Charlotte. We travel to Orlando
or Dallas or some of these places and we play.
We'd play in some tournament. Half the teams we played
for from Charlotte. It's like, what that we could have
stayed at home and done this? What do we do
with And so I think people have to make their
own decisions. I'm not sure what can be done about grassroots,

(15:51):
but there is something that can be done in college,
and that's the people in charge making responsible decisions, admitting
what they're doing, which is running a multi billion dollar
entertainment industry and then pretending that it's not.

Speaker 6 (16:05):
That you know, Jay, I agree to some extent, but
maybe I look at a little differently. Free agency starts
in high school. Now, free agency starts at high school
and and and the free agency is driven by ISSHOE companies,
It's driven by UH exposure camps, It's driven by UH

(16:26):
and parents unfortunately are in a lot of ways, and
whether it's good or bad, monetizing their kids and instead
of parenting in a lot of ways, and it's carried
over to the next level when they get to college.
I'm we're seeing guys UH parents quit their jobs UH
and travel to the school where they're play their sons

(16:46):
are playing, and basically hovering over you talk about helicopter
parents just hovering over their kids and making decisions that
you know, I guess they feel as a parent, you know,
is the best interest to their child. But it takes
away from growth development and continuity like being part of
something and being a teammate and being selfless as supposed

(17:10):
to selfish and and team development and player development are
report now. Like I said before, there are good to
bad grassroots programs, but we've got to find a way.
And I don't even know if there there's not a
legal way to do it, but we've got to find
a way to And you're right, there's very small percentage
people that are going to go play in college and
smaller percentage you can play in the NBA. And for

(17:34):
that reason, we've got to find a program. And USA
Basketball has done a good job with the select the
best of the very best.

Speaker 7 (17:42):
But I think outside of that.

Speaker 6 (17:45):
The days of going to the park playing with the
older guys gone gone.

Speaker 7 (17:52):
And that's where you kind of learn.

Speaker 6 (17:54):
And the other thing is what's bothered me is you know,
we go on the road and Jay, you speak to
the players. I'm tired of these young players saying I'm
trying to take a professional approach. You're sixteen years old, dude,
you don't need a professional coach. Get lost in the game,
you know, get lost in the process. You know, have
fun with it, be excited about going going to the gym.
But money changes everything, and the amount of money, whether

(18:16):
it's in grassroots basketball, whether it's in college basketball. I mean,
like the one thing that's going to be eliminated, I
think pretty soon.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
I mean, make more money. You make the money for college.

Speaker 6 (18:26):
G League's done, man, G league's done. Yeah, you make
you got you wake way more money than college and
you league. That's like college basketball started to send pro
sd me. It's started professional basketball. And that's why we're
seeing all these g LUDE dudes that want to come
back to Wait a second, I'm on a two way
or you know, I'm on a seventy five or one

(18:46):
hundred twenty five thousand dollars contract. Shoot, I can make
seven hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 7 (18:50):
It isn't that.

Speaker 6 (18:51):
It isn't because they want to go get education. It
isn't is it because they want to be part of something.
It's it's they want to improve their station in life,
which again that's fine.

Speaker 7 (19:02):
The thing I'm having the.

Speaker 6 (19:03):
Hardest time with, and I think we've got to find
a way to to incentifize it, is when these kids
do make these drums, Like the kid in Oklahoma, he's
eligible first semester, he's going to school for semester. He's
una rental for a semester. You know, noage has more
time like education. Like maybe I'm an old fashioned you know,

(19:24):
I got no You know, Seth, you're clueless, You're living
in the dark ages.

Speaker 7 (19:28):
But I do it.

Speaker 6 (19:29):
These these recruitments are transactional. Education is not being talked about.
Progress is not being talked about. What your major is
academic support. I mean I speak to these guys every
single day and say, like, what are you doing a visit?

Speaker 7 (19:43):
Well, you know, we have our general managers speak to
the agent and then we make a presentation unfit and
that's so unrealistic.

Speaker 6 (19:52):
It's something We've got to find a way to put
education back in the system. We've got to find a
way to create maybe Moore academies in grassroots that if
a kid does fall in love with the game, then
he can be part of these academies and they can
get the player development side of what's happening in Europe

(20:13):
with also an educational set. And we have these prep schools,
but I just think we're so sideways on it. And
I understand the money jay, and I understand professional sport,
but you go to four schools in four years and
you don't have a degree, and where do you go
back to, where do you find your mentor and where.

Speaker 7 (20:30):
Do you.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
Like?

Speaker 1 (20:32):
I really thinks be some.

Speaker 6 (20:34):
Form of mental health issue coming down the pike and
all this because we're setting them up not to be
able to deal with the realities, the realities of life, to.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Kind of put a little bit of a button on
this because it is hard to kind of understand what
can we do to fix this, I think right now,
and it's kind of outside the box, But there's so
many NBA dads involved in grassroots basketball or high level
Jay's yourself, high level guys that played at the highest
level college and did what you did for us to
come together and sit down with whether it be USA

(21:06):
Basketball or Nike Basketball and really implement a plan or
a system and put some regulations on what kids and
can and can't do.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
Because at the end of the day, like you said,
the shoe companies run this shit.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
So if there's a way for enough of us dads
to come together, put a plan together and really kind
of map out, obviously possibly as a model, what they
do over the water, how do we implement a different,
homemade system where we're teaching kids. There's talks with ray
Jon Rondo and his program about mentorship and and cash
management and investment and all kinds of classes you may

(21:37):
have to take when you're in this program. How do
we get these dads together to sit down with one
of these shoe companies and figure out the new model
of what AAU looks like. Jumping ahead to college, Jay,
and you said that the kid and I forgot his name,
It slipped my name. What's the kid that Nai Nase
who jumped in to the draft was drafted, didn't sign

(21:58):
an actual MB he signed tracks to your point set,
but not not playing in an actual NBA game, but playing.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
In some of the games.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
I'm so against that from a standpoint of And again,
the rules are outdated. But if you we came from
an air, if you you know, if you stayed in
the draft and did get drafted, it's unfortunate. And it
goes back to to me, I mean, what are we
getting two hundred and fifty three hundred kids every draft
for sixty spots? Bad information? People are trying to take

(22:24):
advantage of these kids. But again, I feel like if
you make that jump and go pro, there's no way
you should be able to be coming back. And then
also I think another point you touched on, Jay is
the age difference. And although a majority of the kids
are the right age, is if you're looking at these teams,
that are some of these teams that are advancing in
the tournament there are on the older side, and I

(22:45):
can only imagine as a twenty five, twenty six, twenty
seven year old, there's not a thing the most talented
seventeen year old can do unless you're a Kobe, because
I know I'm gonna bully the shit out of you
the strength there, I've got nine years on you. There's
just such a different friends on playing when because you're
still developing so much at that seventeen eighteen. Right when

(23:06):
you get into college nineteen twenty, you know, our advice
continue to develop until we're like twenty six, twenty seven, twenty.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Eight, so there's nothing you can really do.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
So to me, that's why I say I feel like,
and although to your point, there there's never been a
ceiling on it, to me, what is And I want
to get your guys' thoughts a twenty three twenty four
some kind of cap on how old you can be
in college sports, because I feel I understand injuries happen,

(23:33):
and I'm not shaking that away because that is a
part of the game. But I feel like, if you're
six years removed from high school and you haven't figured
it out yet, I think it's time for you to
get out of the way. From a standpoint of you
go ahead and get your education to cesspoint, because we
want you to go out here and be successful and
not have mental health issues because you've been handed everything
for so long. But you're completely clogging up the pipeline

(23:54):
for these kids that maybe need two or three years
to develop and get an opportunity. But no major pro
going to take a chance because if I'm a coach,
I'm going to take an older player more experience as well.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
I think you are going to take an older player,
And I think we're seeing that not across the board,
but more often than not, coaches are looking at if
I'm only going to have a player for two years,
I'd rather have a guy who's got two years of
eligibility that's older, rather than a really good player that
may come out of high school and stay here a
year or two, either go to the NBA or transfer.

(24:24):
I understand the business realities of that. I'm not saying
it's ideal, But at the same time, how many players
in this category are what are we really talking about?
It's really not that many. And I go back to
there's never been an age limit. There's a fifty year
old guy playing college football right now. And you know

(24:45):
when Matt, when you were playing UCLA probably ran across
BYU every now and again when you played, and they
had players that were twenty four twenty five because they
went on an LDS mission either out of high school
or when they were in college. You had players that
had served in the military and then decided they wanted
to go to college and play. So we've always had
this from time to time. What's different now is you know,

(25:08):
you see James Naji or there's a kid at Louisville
that had signed a G League contract, but to the
NCAA looks upon that as depending on whether you actually
signed an NBA deal and how much money you made.
If the money you made was equivalent to your expenses,
similar to what they used for a European pro, because
that's the measure for a European pro, then the rules

(25:32):
say that these guys can play. And what I hear
and I get the point about, hey, what would be
best for you know, the overall for mental health and
everybody's best interest and all that's all great. I don't
differ with you guys at all on that. But what
I hear from guys like Cal and Izzo is, look,
we're not taking these guys. We don't want to play

(25:52):
against them. And this sounds really similar to the one
and done debate we had fifteen to twenty years years ago,
when like Cal got criticized relentlessly for taking one and dones.
You don't care about education, They're only they're rentals, they're mercenaries,
they're only going to be there for a year. And

(26:14):
he didn't listen to that crap, and then Coach k
started doing it. Coach Kate didn't like it at first either,
and then realized, look, a lot of these guys want
to come to Duke and if they if we don't
take them, we got to play against them, so why
not take them? And it worked out fine for both
and Izzo's had someone and Don's not as many, but
you know, it's the same discussion. And going back I'm

(26:36):
sorry to ramble, but going back on what we had
talked about with grassroots, you know, the kids don't go
to the playgrounds anymore. When I was in high school,
my coach and his coaching buddies all complained that all
we did was play pick up ball, and we never
we were never working on our games in the gym, right,
we were never working well.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
We didn't train not to not to cut you off.
We went first of all, we went from sports to
sport to sport. Really were you just a single sport athlete?
But we're playing pick up basketball at the park. We're
finding a beat up gym to play in. Like and again,
I have kids who are seventeen. Now, never do they
go to the park and play. I have to arrange
the gym and call all the kids and get on
the horn with my kids. So that was something instinctually

(27:18):
that we rode our bike or walked to or took
the bus to get to. These goddamn kids just have
it too good. But go go ahead, Well.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
I mean, I guess say it.

Speaker 7 (27:25):
Guess.

Speaker 4 (27:25):
My point, Matten is, there's never been a time in
basketball where those in charge haven't been complaining about it
being fucked up. Like there's never been a time it
was fucked up. When I was in school, the coaches
would say the high school coaches are too powerful. The
high school coaches are too powerful. Then the AAU coach
became too powerful. We got to get the high school

(27:47):
coach back in and they played way too much pickup ball.
They need to play more games, they need to do this,
they need to do that, And you know, look, I
get it. I'm not happy with everything that goes on basketball.
I'm certainly not happy with everything that goes on in college.
But what I will tell you is I would rather

(28:07):
have these young people have choice than be restricted. And
I don't believe for one second the complaint that there's
no loyalty anymore, Like was it loyalty when we couldn't move?

Speaker 3 (28:21):
Like?

Speaker 4 (28:22):
How did loyalty just all of a sudden disappear once
there was choice? You know, the players have choice now,
and we want to say that players were more loyal
when we were all in school. Were we loyal or
did we not have a choice? And I think it's
the latter. We didn't have a choice, and you know,
there weren't as many one and done's. You know, we

(28:43):
had to stay. Like when I was in school, Johnny
Dawkins didn't go pro early. There wasn't enough money, There
was no reason to do it then. And he may
differ with this, but I think if Johnny Dawkins were
playing college basketball now, he'd be out after his freshman
or sophomore year because he wouldn't be able to turn
down that kind not kind of pay day. It would
be irresponsible not to.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
And it was an older game back then, Jay, you know,
we were coming into the game where there were grown men.
These guys were in their thirties, grown men. So it
was just like it was, it was different. The league's so.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Young now that I feel like the switch Seth thoughts.

Speaker 6 (29:19):
Yeah, let me let me ask ask, yes, like, here's
the deal, and I think it's kind of it makes sense.

Speaker 7 (29:28):
College basketball is professional basketball.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
Correct always? All right?

Speaker 6 (29:32):
All right, So professional basketball, you have contracts. You can't
basically change teams year to year to year to year,
all right. There are rules and regulations and guidelines, and
we have none of that. So until we get guidelines,
all right, there's no professional organization in athletic organization, NFL, NBA,

(29:55):
major League baseball, pro soccer, you name it, full across
that doesn't have.

Speaker 7 (30:00):
Year to year, that has year to year free agency.

Speaker 6 (30:03):
Right because those type of enterprises cannot function with year
to year free agency. But yet college that's what we have.
So until we find a way to either one time
transfer a five year limit, find something contracts where there's
a buyout, like you know, I know, Jay, you always
talk about what the coaches can leave you we can lead,

(30:24):
And I spent about a half million dollars buying out
of my contracts the two times I left. All right, Right,
there's got to be an accountability and both sides have
to have skin in the game, because right now the
schools have skin in the game, the player doesn't have any.
This schools negotiate these these NIL pay for play deals.

Speaker 7 (30:43):
It's not a n I L.

Speaker 6 (30:44):
Let's stop bullshitting going in NIL. It's not an IL.
Very few people have n I L. Maybe you get
a little side deals, but the big deals are for
the group of flags and those type of players.

Speaker 7 (30:56):
Until we figure that out, well we have a problem.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
I agree with you. They're enjoying this chaos in a way. Like,
first of all, not one game has been canceled, not
one roster hasn't been filled year to year, and ratings
are higher and they've ever been. They're making money hand
over fists, and that's great. I don't have a problem
with it. Like Football's more popular has ever been basketball?

(31:22):
Our basketball ratings are higher and they've ever been. And
what I think is going on is look, the nc
double A and the member institutions. They are deathly afraid
of the players becoming employees of the university. They don't
want that. And what they're hoping for is that it
is going to appear chaotic while the train keeps rolling
to the bank, and Congress is going to come in

(31:45):
and give them an antitrust exemption. I don't think that's
going to happen. But what could happen. It's like if
Congress really wants to get involved and provide federal assistance.
Here what I think Congress could do, and it would
be very effective, is Congress could come in and say,
all right, college athletes are now exempt from the Fair

(32:05):
Labor Standards Act and from the National Labor Relations Act.
They can be independent contractors and sign contracts with their schools,
multi year contracts. And the Congress could provide a pathway
and a mechanism for the NCAA to bargain collectively with
the players, and the players could bargain for their fair

(32:27):
market value under an umbrella like the NBA or the NFL.
Does that provides a rule structure, But I'll give you
I'll give you an example set to't.

Speaker 7 (32:40):
I got a question.

Speaker 4 (32:41):
I think it could happen with congressional authority because that
would require federal law that would exempt athletes and the
schools from federal laws that might be impediments right now.
But your point about coaches and buyouts is a good one,
all right. You know, right now Duke is soon doing
their quarterback over backing out of an NIL deal and

(33:04):
trying to transfer to another school. I think that's a
good thing. I think schools should enforce their contracts, and
I think players that sign contracts should insist on their
contracts being performed by the school. But they should have
to perform too their adults. But your point about one
thing I've always found contradictory, and this is not on
you or any other coach, it's the schools. Every year

(33:28):
we go through this member institutions will will fire their
coach and they go out and they hire somebody else's
coaches under contract. That would never happen in the NBA
or the NFL. That would never be allowed. And that's
something the NCAA could do something about. But the presidents
don't want to, Like they want to be able to
choose when their coach, when they decide to fire their coach.

(33:52):
They want to go out and get whomever they want,
and if they disrupt somebody else's another member institution, school,
they're fine with that. And it's there, as you know,
there's a dominant effect to all that. So I get
really tired of administrators with the NCAA and the schools
shaking their finger at everybody talking about integrity all the

(34:13):
time when they don't show any like you want to
use the word integrity. Start showing some And the last
ones that need to be limited, in my view, are
the players. Like the players have been limited enough, they
need like not one person I've heard in any of
these debates have said, you know what, we need a

(34:33):
salary restriction for coaches. You know that's that's too much
money for somebody who's interested in education to be making
coaching a game. If they're interested in education, they should
be taking less, and we need a restriction across the
board on coaches. Not one person has said that it's
all about the players being limited, and I find that
really short sighted and almost defensive to the point of

(34:54):
being a moral.

Speaker 6 (34:55):
The market value for the players right now is being
driven by the quote unquote agents that aren't agents that
are basically the old runners that are.

Speaker 7 (35:05):
Before you get to that, you know you're talking.

Speaker 4 (35:07):
The market is being driven by what the schools are
willing to pay to get the players. Whomever is asking,
whether it's an agent you don't like or a parent
you don't like, nobody's forcing the schools to pay for
players they think are good enough.

Speaker 7 (35:21):
But those contracts aren't.

Speaker 6 (35:22):
I agree with you, one hundred percent agree with you,
except that you don't know these people that you're dealing with,
all right. They're not showing you a contract saying that
this person's been offered this because these agents are not
certified and therefore there are no rules. And you know, look,
I don't know law, but in the NBA, you you
have a tender. You have an offer right that that

(35:43):
everyone can see. I'm off of Matt Barnes' X amount
of money. Now I can match that, or I can
let mac Barnes go in college. The guys that are
representing these kids, right, there's no tendered offer. It's pretty
much you know, word of mouth and how they're benipulating
the market at least how they have to manipulating the
market from the.

Speaker 4 (36:03):
People that says, all right, anytime you make an offer,
you have to put it on They got a portal,
put your offers up on some website where everybody consume
and they know what the offers are. Right well, you
know like yeah to me, that would be great.

Speaker 6 (36:20):
Yeah, well that well that let's have the fix it
now to collective bargaining part of it. If college athletics
are going to be collectively bargained and Jay you know
this better not is basketball.

Speaker 7 (36:33):
Have its own collective bargaining? Does football have its own
collective bargaining? This?

Speaker 6 (36:37):
Tennis and gymnastics? Are they being collectively bargained across the
board male female sports across Because if you do that,
I'm not sure that a lot of those sports are
going to survive because it just it would be impossible
to collectively bargain across the board of all those different sports.

(36:58):
And and again I'm asking, because you know the legalities,
the power fives.

Speaker 7 (37:02):
Are gonna be able to survive.

Speaker 6 (37:04):
What's gonna happen to the Atlantic ten the Mountain West,
the Northeastern Conference whatever? And that's why I think eventually, Matt,
I think the college athletics and so you don't think
tournament should remain a say except the Power fives are
gonna break away, and they're gonna get a certain number
of bids. Because there are sixteen and eighteen team leagues,
all those one big leagues, they can decide how they

(37:26):
want to conduct their business, no different Like Zaggi Conductor's
business is a high major.

Speaker 7 (37:29):
They'll continue to conduct their business like that.

Speaker 6 (37:33):
But the first eight games or first four there'd be
four regions and they'll be sixteen or whatever. How many
other teams we're gonna we're gonna have in the in
the tournament and all those one bids they're gonna play.
They're gonna play the first round of the tournament, and
they're gonna play the way into the main tournament with
the power fives. Because the Power fives have nothing in
common with what's going on below them.

Speaker 7 (37:55):
It just doesn't.

Speaker 6 (37:56):
And like when people say, well, you know the great
thing about pay for play is that everyone it levels
the playing field.

Speaker 7 (38:02):
It doesn't. It levels the plainfield and the high majors.

Speaker 6 (38:05):
It enables Texas Tech to be competitive and win a
national championship, enables b YU to go get aj Debonza,
and it ended up enables in Indiana to go and
recruit the numbers of good players that they need to
win a national championship. But it doesn't enable a mid
major to go and beat Duke for a player, or

(38:27):
or or just to get an example, Presbyterian to go
and beat you know, an ACC team for a player.

Speaker 7 (38:35):
It just doesn't.

Speaker 6 (38:36):
It doesn't work for Power fives. No, I agree, No,
I know that's what I'm saying. But I'm not saying
it doesn't level the play. Where it's leveled, the playing
field is at the very top. It's giving more schools
and opportunities. Say X, Y and Z, I'm Texas Tech.
I'm going out and I'm gonna buy those dudes. And

(38:57):
you know what the other people in the Big twelve is.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Like, why is he buying you know, sportling with with
anything here, but why is it buying a player? And
we don't talk about buying anything else like, you know,
because the same thing has always gone on.

Speaker 7 (39:14):
With coaches, talk about buying coaches.

Speaker 4 (39:16):
You know, an aspiring coach that has worked his way
worked his way up, goes to Central Michigan and they
do well and they win their league, and then Michigan
fires as coach and hires a Central Michigan coach. We
don't go, Hey, Michigan just went out and bought that
guy off of a mid major program. We don't do that.
And the portal as well, but.

Speaker 7 (39:41):
I want to.

Speaker 4 (39:44):
That's capitalism and working your way up and paying your
dues and all that. And yet when we have a
player who's under recruited out of high school, the player
winds up going to a mid major school then kills
it like like Dalton Connect, Like you know, hands up
all those that had heard of Dalton Connect before he
went to Northern Colorado. I didn't. I saw him play

(40:06):
twice because I was watching for the NBA Draft. I
was watching guys he was playing against. That's the only
reason I even knew his name. And he winds up
going to Tennessee. He transfers up, goes to Tennessee as
a first round draft pick. So in like for loyalty
and all these other reasons, he's required to stay at

(40:26):
Northern Colorado his whole career because that's where he was
recruited out of high school. And or I if we say, okay,
but we want the old rules, he can transfer, but
he's got to sit out a year. He's got to
give up a year of his life to get to
the level he's always dreamed of. When we don't do
that with coaches, assistant coaches, whatever, do.

Speaker 7 (40:45):
You think a guy should have multiple years?

Speaker 6 (40:47):
I mean, like, do you think that they can transfer
everything you think that's the best interest in the enterprise,
the player or anything.

Speaker 7 (40:53):
Like to have just no.

Speaker 6 (40:54):
Rules like they have right now, like we have now,
as opposed to if we're a professional sport, every other
sport professional sport has some type of stipulations on you know,
contracts and not because you know and not being free
agent under certain jurisdictions.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
I think that's I think that's my question Seth and
Jay I wants you to take because you definitely open
my eyes from the standpoint of we've never hear coaches
need a cap or coaches shouldn't And and I'm a
former player and I'm always pro player, But I also
think at the same time and and and I want
to throw this to you guys, is there a situation
where one you have to honor your contract to a

(41:33):
free you know, one or two free jumps and then
you have to say, is there anything like that that
can slow down to what cess point? Because I don't
think going from team to team to team to team
is any good, especially when the odds are you're not
gonna make it. So what did you really just you
know what, I mean, what what? And again again, ninety
nine percent of these kids don't you know, don't go
pro Like I just think there should be some sort

(41:56):
of consequences or understanding with with what your commitment is.
But again I like what you said too, Jay. I
like a kids such as Dalton connective has been able
to work and grind his way to the top. Do
we have adult connect if if we set these kind
of limits. So that's what I want to throw back
to you, guys. Should there be any kind of sit
out six months payback money? You can only you know,

(42:18):
transfer once and then after that you have to sit out,
you know, have to see should there be any of
that kind of regulation? And on top of that age
age limit, should we have any of that on college?
And I think Seth, you're saying yes, And Jay, I'm
not so sure what you're going to say on this.

Speaker 4 (42:32):
If you want to if you want to have it,
let's bargain for it. Like I don't, I don't have
a problem with any of this stuff.

Speaker 8 (42:37):
Like do.

Speaker 4 (42:38):
I think it's a little bit odd when you have
a player who's twenty six, twenty seven years old playing
in college. I don't think it's anything to get my
andies in a bunch over. I'm not worried about your
enterprise because James Najih came back to college and look
like James Naji's averaging about four or five points a game,
and I'm not sure Baylor went game since he's been there,

(43:01):
might have won one, but he's not a difference maker.
He's my understanding is a great young man and all that,
But what are we really worried about here? We're worried
that the G League is going to empty out and
all of a sudden they're going to take over college sports.
I don't think that's going to be a major problem.
And the other thing that I think is of interest is,

(43:21):
you know, when One and Done was happening, we complained
about the educational aspect of it. So right now, because
of NIL and because of what's currently, players are being
allowed to be compensated, not to their full value yet,
but at least they're compensated. We've got players staying longer
in school and isn't that kind of a good thing

(43:41):
that they're staying longer in school and they're at an
institution of higher learning. Most of them are graduating. We
can quibble about it. Are they taken the right courses
and are they graduating in something that's of value? But
to me, that's up to each school to decide. You know,
they have to decide what their standards are for their
athletes and whether graduations to be a part of it.
And they're going to insist on this. To your question, Matt,

(44:03):
about about you know, like contracts and all that. Schools
can sign players to contracts right now, they just can't
make them employees. The NC DOUBLEA won't allow that. And
what I think the NCAA should do is allow your
institutions to do whatever they want. You want to make
an employee, you want to sign them to a multi year deal,
put buyouts in it, all that stuff. I think any

(44:25):
restriction we have on an athlete, just like any restriction
you would put on a coach or an administrator, needs
to be bargained for. And a blanket restriction on players
only because they're they're In the history of the NC DOUBLEA,
the only restrictions that have ever been meeted out have
been on players. There like, there have never been restrictions
on coaches administrators. They can go come and go as

(44:48):
they please and as their contracts saying and one last thing, like,
does anybody find it interesting And I'm not trying to
cast dispersions, but interesting that Lane Kiffen leaves a team
that is going to the college football Playoff to go
to another member institution. So the member, the LSU, offers

(45:09):
him a contract while he's under contract at oh Miss,
essentially take puts him to a decision to leave a
team in the college football playoff. And not one coach
and not one administrator came out publicly and said what
about loyalty? What about this? What about that? They didn't
say any of the crap they say about the players.

(45:30):
Everybody remained conspicuous. Maybe there were some here and there
that complained, mostly media. It was mostly media that complained.
You know, the sitting administrators and presidents and all that
didn't say a word because they feel like they're going
to be in that situation at some point and they
don't want to they don't want to lock themselves out
of doing what LSU did.

Speaker 7 (45:48):
I thought I got tortured by the media.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
Maybe I missed it.

Speaker 6 (45:52):
Maybe no, No, I I think people took a chance
at Lane kiff In. A part of it was the portal,
the stupidity of opening up the portal during the college
football playoffs. You know, you had a school like All
miss that basically said we don't want him coaching our
players and try to recruit them right off our campus.
And you know that was a mutual decision. Do you

(46:13):
want to coach that team? Yes, taking a job and
opening up in terms of the job. Portals should not
be opened either, even though it's open twenty four to seven,
seven days a week, just like the player portal.

Speaker 7 (46:23):
Let's face it.

Speaker 6 (46:23):
I mean, guys are losing the NCAA tournament and entered
their name in the portal when they get on the
plane because they know their Asian sorority.

Speaker 7 (46:31):
Guys are in the portal don't even know in they're portal.

Speaker 6 (46:33):
But let's hit on a couple of things personally, I think,
and that's true. Five years you get one. You get
one opportunity free pass to transfer. You get five years
to play if you decide, you get one trans If
you do the second time, it's part of five years,
you're done.

Speaker 7 (46:50):
That's just me. Number one. The mid majors have turned
into junior college.

Speaker 6 (46:54):
They're two year schools basically for most of these kids,
that's what they are.

Speaker 7 (46:57):
They've turned into Jude.

Speaker 6 (46:59):
If I coached the mid may I have recruit j
Bills and I'd say, Jay, I'll tell you what we're
gonna bust our tank. We're going to make you the
best player you can, and you tell me where you
want to go, and we will pick up the phone
and help you get there.

Speaker 7 (47:10):
They've heard it. They've turned into junior college.

Speaker 6 (47:12):
And I've talked to a bunch of mid major coaches
today just because I'm doing some research on some teams.
And one guy said he's got six returning players. He thinks,
very very good team by the way teams can be
in the tournament, maybe win a game.

Speaker 7 (47:25):
He thinks he'll be up to retain two of them,
he said.

Speaker 6 (47:29):
All the rest of them he knows of being recruited
right off his roster right now, right off his roster
right now. So like the mid you know, and then
what's happened is it's it's and this is where your
kids are getting impacted. Matt is, So what happens the
MIDPA mid major coach gets pilfered by the high major coach.
So what does the mid major coach do. He's going
down to the low major coach because he wants to
get older, and he's going to go take the best

(47:51):
low major players.

Speaker 7 (47:52):
And you went the lone bik major coach is doing.

Speaker 6 (47:54):
He's going to grab a Division two kid because he
wants to get old and stay hold. And the kid
who's getting screwed as the high school kid. And so
I mean, like it's a problem, it really is.

Speaker 7 (48:06):
So how do you fix it? You've got to find
some type of limitations.

Speaker 6 (48:10):
We got Puff Johnson all right, who played seventeen years ago,
really only seven, all right, who just signed at Ohio
State to play basketball.

Speaker 7 (48:19):
Because he found a judge.

Speaker 6 (48:21):
In Ohio that basically gave him an alumnus who gave.

Speaker 7 (48:26):
Him what do you call that? Jay an injunction we had.

Speaker 6 (48:31):
I mean and look, I look the kid at Gonzaga,
Tyron grand Foster, and oh yeah, the terrible health issues.
But that's seven years. You got Chad Bake Massarra playing
eight years. We've got to find a way. Come on, man,
there's a point where enough's enough, Like like, if you
loved college that much, all right, then why did you

(48:54):
put your you decided to put your name in the draft.
If you loved the holiday, you want to know, it's
because the only reason it is, it's because it's it's
surely held playing on, flying on charter planes, staying in
Ritz Carlton's. You know, you know, getting paid the way
college guys to get paid right now is a whole
lot better than bands far free in the freaking G league.

(49:16):
I mean, like and you know, and taking bus trips
and eating you know, however they feed.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Them in the gym.

Speaker 6 (49:21):
I don't know, Matt, you have to pay that lead.
But I can't imagine, all right, I can't imagine.

Speaker 7 (49:26):
They get taken care of the way like the.

Speaker 6 (49:28):
Guys at Duke in Carolina and and and everywhere else.
So I mean, we've got to have We've got to
have fine number of years or an age restriction. We
just have to do that. We're shooting ourselves in the
foot and we're not because we're taking care of the
top two percent and we're absolutely screwing the enterprise. That
that's me and that look, I might be Pollyanna and

(49:48):
my you know, that's just the way I feel, and
that I'm that I'm passionate about.

Speaker 7 (49:52):
I think the other thing we got to get rid of.

Speaker 6 (49:54):
We got to get rid of ilon classes, get rid
of online classes, at least to put a restriction so
these guys that do go to college can actually be
a normal student that at least have to be in
some classes and maybe have the interactions that you would have,
like you would say you had, you know, in college,
so that you meet people that you know are outside
of your cocoon that maybe can build a bridge forew

(50:17):
to cross, or relationships that you might have. Maybe that's
too polyad and maybe that college experience doesn't exist anymore,
but I think that these young people are missing that
in terms of their own personal growth.

Speaker 4 (50:30):
I don't disagree with certainly the sentiment, But what I
would ask is on what basis are these restrictions? On
what principle are these restrictions based other than I don't
like it, because what will.

Speaker 7 (50:47):
Yeah, I grew up.

Speaker 4 (50:49):
The NCAA for a million years has said as a
bedrock principle that athletes are students who just happen to
be athletes, and they are students to be treated as
any other student so by that standard, and they've had
to argue this in court and it's really hurt them.
What other student is told that they cannot leave and

(51:11):
go to another school when they want and participate in
whatever extracurricular activities that school is willing to have them in. So,
if you like, we could take a student on a
music scholarship at UCLA and say, hey, you know, only
two percent of musicians ever make it to Carnegie Hall
or ever cut a record, So you can't leave and

(51:34):
go to another school because we're giving you a scholarship
and you get treated better than most musicians who are
playing in their local philharmonic, who are having to bust
their ass every day for hardly any other pay. If
we restricted them, the NCUB be in court the next
day and would get their ass kicked. And that's why
we're here now, is because the NCAA went to court

(51:56):
on running a multi billion dollar business and restricting only
one class of person, that being the athlete, and they
got their ass kicked. And now they got to act
like any other multi billion dollar business and have reasons
for whatever rules they put in. And that's why I'm
saying if Congress wants to get involved, which the NCAA

(52:17):
clearly wants, otherwise they'd be taking act in themselves. If
Congress wants to get involved, then do it around the
margins and allow the players to sign contracts with their
schools and allow collective bargaining where the athletes can get
their fair market value with restrictions they agree to that
make sense for the overall enterprise because you can't eliminate

(52:38):
choice from this. And Seth like you've referred to professional basketball.
Both of you have, and you're right. My argument is
it's been professional since I was in school. This has
been a multi billion dollar industry for a long long time.
And if a school doesn't want online classes at your school,
then don't have them. But if we're going to put

(52:58):
in a restriction across the or that nobody can have
online online education, then a bunch of schools are going
with a minute, our regular student, our non athlete students
take online courses. We're gonna eliminate all this. You know,
we're complaining about a lot of things here, and I'm
not sure all of them apply to the athletes.

Speaker 6 (53:16):
Yeah, yeah, you could put them at you but you
can put it in a contract that a certain percentage
of your classes have to be the.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
Other thing that individual, you know, like some schools you
know that by necessity they have to have more online courses.
That's all fine, Like I agree with you. Bargain with
the player and sign them to whatever contract you want.
You can even have a thing about g PA, like
you can't play like we can terminate the contract if

(53:45):
your grades aren't you a certain level, and then the
player is gonna go, okay, I want kind of verification
of my grades because if I start playing lousy, I
don't want you flunking me out and all of a
sudden I'm out of my contract. You know you will.

Speaker 6 (53:55):
Certainly, Yeah, it could be a behavior becauses like I
always think the contracts should have an academic component in
terms of academic progress, uh success, graduation, community service. So actually,
if we're gonna give these kids contracts, we're gonna make
them a complete human being. We'll not just you know,

(54:16):
but one thing that I always I kind of this,
we said, well, you know we at he says you
got to treat them just like any other student student, right,
So does that mean like well, any other student could
TRANSFERMIT semester, Jay, and he could go and play in
the chess team. Any other student could TRANSFERMIT semester and
he can go play in the murals. Any other student could. Like,

(54:37):
there's got to be certain things that you say.

Speaker 9 (54:39):
You know what, yeast taking something to an extreme because
you could say the same thing, like an assistant coach
can switch jobs at halftime and take the game.

Speaker 4 (54:51):
Plan he made for u c l A and apply
it to the game plan at Virginia Tech. Like that's
that never happens, and we can have there's a difference.

Speaker 7 (55:01):
That would happen, Jay, don't. You don't.

Speaker 4 (55:03):
There's different restrictions that are that are competitive and blanket
restrictions that are not. And and you know, like the
blanket restriction we had on athlete compensation was illegal. It
violated federal and a trust law. Nobody, no reasonable person
is out there arguing saying a player should be able
to transferred halftime and play for the other team. Nobody's

(55:25):
arguing that. And we've always had players that have been
eligible at a semester. We've always had that. That's why
Puff Johnson is able to do this. There were injury
things that he had that that the judge bid on
and all I get it on and like, we're not
talking about this flood of thirty year olds that are

(55:46):
coming back to college. But I think it is is
almost making a seam, like I'll go get Magic Johnson. Okay,
if you want a sixty four year old guy to.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Complaint, go ahead, But also think, Jay, we're at it
not to cut you off free. I think we're at
the beginning of what could possibly happen. I think we're
at the very beginning right now. Again, it's the top
of conversation and obviously we're kind of foreshadowing what could
possibly become. I think both you guys make great arguments
for both sides. There's things you guys agree on, there's
things you guys disagree on. And I think to put

(56:16):
a bow on this, does the NCUBA sit back and
continue just to make money hand over fist or does
the noise get loud enough to your point seth put
come some kind of restrictions and regulations and Jay, you
you Lai laidall legally white can't. But where do we
go from here? Is this what college sports is from

(56:37):
here on out? For the major football and basketball for
the short run.

Speaker 4 (56:41):
It is for the short run, because this is what
the nc double A wants. They want, you know, they
want everything, They want the money to keep rolling in.
And I don't want to make them sound craven, but
there's an aspect that is craven. They everything's going great
on the field, on the and at the bank, everything's

(57:02):
going great. I mean, we're arguing about now twelve. We
got a football playoff that eight years ago they said
could never happen. It's impossible, it's never going to happen.
Then we went to four. Now we're and then twelve,
and then we're going to go to twelve, then go
to sixteen. That's what they're arguing about about how do

(57:22):
we make the pie bigger. But what the NCAA really
wants is for they want the appearance of chaos. I
don't know this to be fact, but this is what
I believe based upon my discussions. I think they want
their to appear to be chaotic and the wild wild
West and all that stuff, when this is the wild

(57:42):
wild West that the rest of us live in, so
that Congress will come in and give them a federal
law for them to be able to protect what they've
always wanted to do. I don't think that's a great strategy,
but that's what they want, and so they're not going
to do anything of substance that that's going to derail

(58:05):
that opportunity because they don't want to. They don't want
to put another rule in and then go to court
over it and all that stuff, because everything they do, frankly,
they you know, you can, everything gets the ass kicked
because it's been illegal. Coaches just won another judgment against

(58:25):
them for trying to restrict their pay. I mean, it
happens all the time.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
And closing your thoughts, do we lose them?

Speaker 1 (58:33):
Let's try to get him back real quick.

Speaker 4 (58:35):
He'd had enough of me. His phone gave out.

Speaker 7 (58:38):
There we go down, Here we go. I'm just tired
to hear.

Speaker 4 (58:43):
Exactly what I said.

Speaker 6 (58:49):
This is every single Friday before game day. This is
the conversation. We absolutely kill each other. And God, enough
of his pression. It's beautiful, it's a beautiful conversation.

Speaker 7 (59:02):
What you say.

Speaker 6 (59:03):
I agree, But I think the solution in the end
is going to be I think the Sankees and and
the Yourmax and these commissioners that are the most powerful,
more powerful than the presidents, because they have the voice
of the collective institutions, the leagues. I think if this
thing isn't solved soon, you're going to see some sort

(59:28):
of potential separation because they don't have they're not on
the same Like the NCAA is trying to legislate for
three divisions and eight thousand teams and those fifty or
sixty or one hundred whatever. They're saying, bullshit, we don't
have anything in common all three four three. Shit, we're

(59:51):
we're the one percenters. We don't have think common those people.
Let's let's create a business model that fits us and
and collectively bargain our television contracts with a power of
strength behind it. Now, I don't know that that's just
me thinking I'll be long gone and Phil shall say, yeah, graver,
he was drooling all over himself the last time we

(01:00:12):
had dinner. But I think that's that part of this solution.
I think that's that's gonna eventually happen. I don't know
that's what you guys think.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
We'll see.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
We're looking forward to seeing moving forward what happens fellas
Before we get out of here. I definitely want to
touch on this twenty twenty six draft class one of
the best, best better classes we've seen in recent memory.
And I want to start with Darren Peterson. A lot
of people are saying he's He's the next coming of

(01:00:44):
Rest in Peace, my brother Kobe. His ability to score,
read the floor, his tenacity, the way he plays. I
got to see a lot of these kids play live
on the AU circuit. Let's start with Darren Peterson. Thoughts
on him, who he reminds you of, and what kind
of player you guys feel like NBA teams will be
getting with him.

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
He's got a smoothness to his game that is extraordinary.
He can score from anywhere. He's just got an unbelievable
feel and skill level. He's got size, and athleticism and
you name it. He hasn't played a full season because
of this sort of hamstring slash cramping issue he's been

(01:01:29):
dealing with. But when he's played, I mean the other
night he had twenty six points and twenty three minute
I mean, it's absurd. He was in like nine of
eleven against Baylor. I think it was you know, he's
the real deal. Now. I've never been good at the
comparison thing because I tend to go with how a
player looks, whether he looks like another guy versus exactly

(01:01:50):
how he plays. I hesitate on the Kobe thing a
little bit, But scoring wise, there aren't many that come
along that score it is. I mean, the last guy
could say that, I feel like scored it as easily
as Peterson was Kevin Durant. And they're vastly different players.
But you know, when Durant came out, you knew, okay,

(01:02:11):
he's going to lead the league in scoring at some point,
and you feel kind of like that about Peterson that
he's got. He's got, you know, lead the league in
scoring written on him.

Speaker 6 (01:02:21):
To me, Donovan Mitchell, the way he is now the
shot maker he was now, he wasn't that shot maker
in college. He's improved his ability to make shots. He
can get to anywhere on the floor anytime he wants it.
He's got an incredible basketball feel like in terms of
being efficient with his dribble, he doesn't waste his dribble,
he gets the spots, he shoots it effortlessly on the catch.

Speaker 7 (01:02:41):
He has really good vision. This is an incredible class.

Speaker 6 (01:02:47):
I mean, you know, I think he's he's the one
guy absolutely plug and play, and he's going to get
twenty two to twenty five a game in the NBA.

Speaker 7 (01:02:56):
I just think that.

Speaker 6 (01:02:58):
I think his offensive package, his shot making, his three
level scoring, his feel. If he's healthy, he's gonna he's
coming in and and and now he's starting to defend it.
Early on with his cramps, I didn't think he was
and he didn't get a chance to practice. He wasn't
as engaged as the defender. He has a chance with

(01:03:20):
his left to be a good defender. Donovan Mitchell's who knows.
I mean, Mitchell's my cop. More of how he's playing now,
because in college, you know he wasn't a shot maker.

Speaker 7 (01:03:31):
He is now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Aj Debant, says someone I got to see up close
personal on the AU circuit. And one thing that impressed
me the most. His numbers don't impress me what he's
doing in college. His motor he played with on both ends,
his competitiveness not only for the offensive end and his
ability to get to a spot, but he was picking
up and slapping the floor that old duke shit, did
you guys like to do?

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
Jay?

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
And really moving his feet and talking shit and blocking shots.
I love his energy, obviously, that's carried on to over
at b yu six', nine very. Versatile i'll start with
you said your thoughts ON. Debansa, Yeah tray.

Speaker 6 (01:04:06):
McGrady is the one that kind of resonates with. Me
you see that stride and his ability to get in
a lane and elevate all these young. Players the thing
that's impressed me most is the BASKETBALL iq in your.
Passing they're all whether It's, boozer whether it's The, batsa
whether It's, peterson whether It's, wilson they all they're.

Speaker 7 (01:04:25):
Passing is something.

Speaker 6 (01:04:26):
Else his physical stature and his strength that he plays
with when he goes to the, rim his, passing he's
he could be an incredible. Defender the more space he's
going to have in THE nba as opposed to you,
know when he's playing in a crowd in, college is
two different. Worlds there's the number of transition opportunities he's

(01:04:49):
going to. Have So i'd, Say traysy, McGrady And i'd
say that crazy that he settles in the first half
and then he just takes over the second, half which
is you, know Coach young, says because he's such an unselfish.

Speaker 7 (01:05:01):
Kid but IF i was, coaching said, dude you can
take over whatever you, want you, know go make some. Plays.
Uh he's.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
Special, YEAH i THINK i think there's a great argument
For devansa being the number one, pick even Though peterson
is IS i think more fluid. Scorer devance is, bigger, longer,
uh and can play in isolation and kind of back
you down shoot. Over his mid range game is. Spectacular you,

(01:05:29):
know you can fade away and MAKE nba caliber shots right. Now.
Uh and he's really doing a better job of attacking the.
Basket he's offensive rebounding. Better and while we were, bemoaning you,
know sort of THE aau culture and grassroots, basketball all
the guys THAT i think we're going to be talking about,
here from my understanding and being watching them play and

(01:05:52):
being around, them they're all ultra. Competitive they're all good,
teammates they all work really, hard and they're all about
the right things in the. Game you, know Cam boo's
theer same, Way so you, know a lot a lot
is being done right in addition to the things that
us old old guys don't.

Speaker 7 (01:06:10):
Like he was all have gold badals WITH usa basketball. Too.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Yeah SOMEONE i saw and obviously didn't get was just
as good in high school WHEN i saw these guys,
play and, now no, surprise what he's doing it At
North Carolina Caleb, wilson someone getting twenty and. ELEVEN i
think he's probably. GROWN i think he's like six', ten, now,
long mobile his ability to get to the spots and

(01:06:34):
do what he does on. The floor what are your guys'
thoughts on?

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
His?

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
GAME explosive i mean, he's explosive explosive off, the floor
like he's he's, you know he's pencil thin, right now but,
he's strong and he's got a terrific. Turnaround jumper he
can elevate to do just about whatever. He wants he
plays really hard at, both ENDS and i think he's
a really, good passer kind of an. Underrated passer i'd

(01:07:01):
probably put him top four. Among prospects Uh and, and
honestly it surprised me a. Little BIT like i saw
him in high school and thought, he was, you know a,
great athlete but he's been BETTER than. I THOUGHT and
i watched him practice one Day At north Carolina and
carolina didn't have a, great PRACTICE and i was sitting
WITH an nba scout and we're kind of looking at. Each, Other,

(01:07:22):
going god he's not, doing anything and then he turns
around a couple days later and plays in. A game, WE'RE, Like,
whoa okay so practice isn't always the most. Important thing
but He's the he's the. Real deal and that's why
this class that goes. So deep like in, other years
the guys we've talked about would be number one number.

Speaker 10 (01:07:42):
World, picks yeah he's a little bit of coordinating him
And that wirey's six nine six had a little bit
of just his Motor of, antonio mcdice like he just,
Flies around like the energy that he plays with is.

Speaker 6 (01:07:57):
Just incredible and another guy that's willing to make, a pass,
you KNOW and i think he's just scratching. The surface,
you know he's, you know, He's learning like when he catches,
the ball like off, the lane facing up more and
now just, you know moving the defender rather than trying.

Speaker 7 (01:08:12):
To bang he's relentless on. The glass he's a relentless.

Speaker 4 (01:08:15):
Rin.

Speaker 6 (01:08:16):
Runner uh, you know he has the ability to watch.
These videotapes he's really working on catching and getting behind
the ball and shooting it well and being. Shot ready but,
to me it's like that guy doesn't take a playoff
like he just his motor is, constantly running which, is
like he's fun, To watch like you. Get Fixated usually

(01:08:36):
i'm kind of watching Scheme when i'm, you know. WATCHING
tape i find Myself when I'm watching carolina. Getting fixated
i'm watching like, his ENERGY which i think is.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
Pretty, special yeah he plays with a chip on, the shoulder.
KEYS receipts i like the energy he. Plays, with last but,
not least come from. The pedigree my ACTUALLY former, Aau
teammate carlos got Shipped from alaska with he didn't have,
no haircut. No hairline he just came out here with these,
big old big. Gass hands and, AT fourteen i was,

(01:09:10):
just like where do we find this Ship from.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
Cambus taking a mercenary from a last right imagine everything
that was wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
With basketball we snuck him all the way Out, To,
fresno california and we made some. Things happen camboozer someone
who just, steady solid, twenty three ten, and four one
of the most winning basketball players up to THIS point
au high school we've seen obviously Going where pops went
and and and hasn't missed. A beat, big, solid uh

(01:09:46):
not flashy but his very skilled thoughts on on cam.

Speaker 6 (01:09:49):
SETH winning, i, mean yeah he he just understands how.

Speaker 7 (01:09:56):
To play he's not a. Good pass you're forard to double.

Speaker 6 (01:09:59):
At him he's going to make the right play you,
give him get him in, The elbow he's going to
back you down and get to his left shoulder and
shoot a. Jump up he's gonna, you know he's gonna
step out and pick him pop and make, a three
or maybe he'll make a highlow pass to, you know
to one of.

Speaker 7 (01:10:14):
His teammates.

Speaker 6 (01:10:16):
And every time the ball, gets shot it seems likes
to pass off. THE backboard, i mean he just pursues
every every. EVERY misshot, I mean i just he's fun
to watch and like when the game is on, the
line he's, just fiercely.

Speaker 7 (01:10:28):
Fiercely competitive but the only thing.

Speaker 6 (01:10:30):
Better than watching him Is watching carlos, watching HIM because
i mean the first game of the season that WAS
on tv and he And and can he struggled and
struggled is a.

Speaker 7 (01:10:43):
Little bit they showed a picture.

Speaker 6 (01:10:45):
LOOSE and i don't know if you go, Through this
matt and and and he, was like he LOOKED like
i think you.

Speaker 7 (01:10:51):
Would do he looked a MESS and. I texted i,
TEXTED him, i, said look, just, Breathe dude he's gonna be.
Just fine, he goes this. Is whole but it must
be cool like to have your your kids and playing
and seeing it at.

Speaker 6 (01:11:08):
That level but he's just so fun to watch And
that john's done a great job of how he moves.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
HIM around, i say there's nothing, Like It.

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
JAY cam i think it'll. Be INTERESTING like i agree
with everything Said, About cam like he's just his lower
base is so strong and he can he can bowl
through and go right into your chest and. Create space
HE'S not i would not call him sort of a
spectacular above the. Rim athlete, you know he's not Like

(01:11:37):
A chris weber type that's going to go up and
dunk in, a crowd dunk over in. A crowd but
when you make him play in, a crowd he makes the,
right decision, you know almost. Every time and his PASSING
is i think. Really underrated, you know he draws a
double team and he finds, open people so that that that.

(01:11:58):
WINNING mentality i think there really is something, to that
and it doesn't seem he doesn't seem to get phased.
By anything he can have a rough first half and
then he COMES out i guess twenty and the. Second
half so his. His productivity, you know people talk about potential,
over production but he produces. Every GAME and I Mean
john shires DONE like i think he's done a great.

(01:12:19):
Job period but man to Have Like cooper Flag And
cam boozer back. TO back i. HOPE that i hope
his next class is good because people are going to
be looking at him going? What happened like you don't
Have a national Of the year as a freshman, this
year you know they're gonna they're gonna think you did.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Something, wrong, well guys this obviously can be, you know
the top four picks in this, Upcoming draft who do
you guys have going?

Speaker 4 (01:12:41):
Number one it depends on who. Gets it i'm kind
of coin flip right Now between peterson And. De bonsa
i'm leaning a little Bit, toward debonsa but that's Probably
because peterson hasn't played a full Slate and i'm subject to,
You know i'm subject to getting pulled in that direction a.
Little bit But de bonsa because of his size uh

(01:13:06):
and and his UH and i think he's going to
continue to get better as a, perimeter SHOOTER like I
think peterson's ahead of him. In that but there's something About.
DE bonsa, I really i really like.

Speaker 7 (01:13:16):
The league that you. Played in got to.

Speaker 6 (01:13:19):
MAKE buckets i mean like it's a shot. MAKERS league
i mean it played. IT simple, i mean like to
be the very best of the, very best dude's got to.
Make shots it's very rare to. The guy high, energy guys,
great defender, that's great but like to be, like special
you got to. Make shots and that guy comes in
and just steps in and, makes shots so that, you know,

(01:13:40):
for me uh that that's THE reason i.

Speaker 7 (01:13:42):
WOULD go i would Go. WITH peterson i.

Speaker 6 (01:13:44):
Mean every time he, shoots it when, he misses you
think it's, a mistake kind of like you back in.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
The day.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
Not, Me, Well, fellas again thank you guys for. Your
time THIS was i love the best and FORTH and
i really think we got some good stuff out. Of
here but wish you guys the best moving forward and
hopefully have you guys back again later in.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
The year, be.

Speaker 7 (01:14:09):
Awesome Man, thanks matt, appreciate it love what.

Speaker 4 (01:14:11):
You're doing thanks for having. Us man i'm a first,
time caller, longtime listener. Big fan appreciate.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
Appreciate you, all, right guys have a.

Speaker 8 (01:14:18):
Good one, all, right man we got another round of
real or sentil. First One kevin durant is reportedly frustrated
with the overall quality Of the rockets roster and does
Not view houston as.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
LONG term i think this. Is centail it's intel for.
One today katie's a. LITTLE older i don't even think
he talks like, that anymore. Or period but he's not
talking about. Long term he ain't got long, term Left.

Speaker 8 (01:14:41):
So luka doncic has reportedly Been Calling dennis schroeder a
bitch Since, the Olympics and dennis finally got fed up
and attempted to swing.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
On him Did he did he make? Contact though can?
Anyone verify let me someone let me know if he.
MADE contact i. BELIEVE it i think this. IS real
I think luca a. Slick mouth. Real report and as
much as we talked about shrewder with his hairline a
couple of, years ago he's on site with whoever has
been fucking, with HIM so i heard. About that it's a.

(01:15:11):
REAL report i just won't know if he made contact
because he, got well he got suspending, three, Games right
i've waited for someone after the game until they made
me LEAVE and i didn't. Get suspended so he had
to MAKE condor i. Made it he had to be,
swung on dude to make contact to get, Three, games.

Speaker 4 (01:15:25):
Well hit up one of your, former teammates so let's get.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
THE real i want, to say all my motherfucking former teammates,
are Retired so i'm.

Speaker 4 (01:15:31):
Old that's the head coach of.

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
THE team. I, GOT yeah i don't like TO call jj.
WITH bullshit i already know bron is stressing him. Out
enough i'm not GONNA call jj with. No bullshit go
to the.

Speaker 4 (01:15:40):
Next one you're two.

Speaker 8 (01:15:40):
For Two two giannis walked Into the bucks locker room
when they Played, the lakers wearing Assigned to. Lebron jersey
the nasaist also Received A bronnie. James jersey.

Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
This has gotta. Be, sentel oh this.

Speaker 4 (01:15:55):
Is real this is a.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Real report why did THEY say i don't give a
Fuck about Lebron's just why Isn't the Nasais the? Bronni jersey?
That's crazy when was that? This, year yeah that was
like three. Games ago bron is? Recruiting him is he
trying To get? Luca traded what's going.

Speaker 1 (01:16:14):
On here i'm.

Speaker 8 (01:16:16):
Not, SURE no i.

Speaker 4 (01:16:18):
Just think people are seeing bron be like not too many.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Jerseys left oh on, That side i'll. FORGIVE me i
didn't think on that side a. Good point but That
the Natas and bronni did.

Speaker 8 (01:16:27):
Is Crazy chat holmgren After defeating Victor win beyama quote
who probably want to spend more some time in the.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
Weight room oh chess got a little nigga in. Him
too he might have, said THAT but i don't know
if he wants to say that to to to the seven.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
Foot month This. Is centil, but hey This. Is CENTAIL
but i hope. It's Real. IT'S centil I could i
couldn't lose. Right, THERE yeah i.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Don't know if you want to bark up that that
That Win, BENYAMA tree i fear, no one but that
respect has got to be there because, that boy.

Speaker 1 (01:17:00):
It's tough.

Speaker 8 (01:17:00):
Last One The brooklyn nets are seeking a handwritten Apology
From jimmy butler after he Referred To danny wolfe as
a quote white boy who gets.

Speaker 4 (01:17:11):
A fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
I hope this. Is real This. IS cintel i was
hot today with four out of.

Speaker 4 (01:17:18):
Five solid, for sure you're on. Your bullshit.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
That's.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
A rap i want to thank My Guest, Jay Billison.
Seth greenberg you can catch This on All The smoke
productions YouTube And The.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
DraftKings network we'll see y'all.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
Next week

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Betrayal Season 5

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Jay Bilas & Seth Greenberg: What’s REALLY Broken in College Hoops (PLUS Generational 2026 NBA Draft)