August 2, 2026 • 28 mins
Why do people become killers? Criminal Minds star Kirsten Vangsness joins Elisa Donovan to explore the psychology behind violent crime, why understanding behavior matters more than simple labels, and what more than 20 years as Penelope Garcia taught her about the darkest parts of the human mind.
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hey, everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Joining me
today is the incredibly talented actress and writer Kirsten Vangsness,
whom millions of fans know as FBI technical analyst Penelo
be Garcia from Criminal Minds and now Criminal Minds Evolution.
For more than twenty years, Garcia has been the heart
(00:35):
of the BAU, helping audiences understand not just who commits
horrific crimes, but why we are exploring the real life
criminal psychology that inspires Criminal Minds, and why the series
has remained one of television's most fascinating explorations of human behavior. Hi, Kirsten,
Welcome to Killer Thriller.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We have a lot of things to cover today, So
first we're going to talk about Criminal Minds. You know,
maybe one of the most successful television shows to ever
be a television show, and one of the things that
Criminal Minds and now Criminal Minds Evolution has always done
(01:20):
so well is ask not just who committed the crime,
but why and why do you think audiences have connected
with that approach for so many years?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I think that all of us do. I mean, think
about when you might have been in some sort of
disagreement with someone you're super duper close to, whether it's
a primary caregiver and you're an adult now, or whether
you have a beloved or someone you have a crush on,
some a deep friend and something happens. We've all been
(01:55):
there where something happens and our defenses go up. We
get super contracted and they either I mean, depending on
how much therapy you've had or whatever, right a lot
in my case, right me to you, me too. But
you've heard people, I've heard myself. You do things and
say things. You're like, that's not me. I don't do
that at all. We segment off parts of ourselves and
we go, oh, I would never, I would never, never, never, never,
(02:18):
And people do, especially in the world now. I think
we're getting better. But this idea that like, oh everybody acts,
so everybody's so together, and oh yeah, when I make pasta,
it's just like how it looks like the girl does
it on Instagram and everything's clean, right yeah, when I
spread my tofu, that's exact. No. So this idea, I
(02:40):
think we all do, think behave in sometimes reprehensible ways.
And the deal is is that behavior can be disgusting
human beings. Everybody came into this earth and just wanted
to take their next breath and where it it's all
(03:00):
wonky and strange, is what some people decide they need
to take their next breath? Or you know, the audacity,
the temerity of people in the world right now, some
of which are running the government to behave in ways
that like, oh, I can just do this and like
(03:20):
and they get away with it, and you're like, the
temerity of that, and it makes you very curious and
in an expanded, really hyperbolic in the way of criminal
minds way, because oh my gosh, we all have to
remember that there's not that many serial killers walking around
at one time given moment. But in that hyperbolic way
that criminal minds does it, you can both narrow it
(03:42):
down to the things that happen in your life. And
I know for a lot of feminine bet creatures, I
hear a lot of this is my comfort show, This
is my comfort show, And I think that I date, yeah,
that idea of like everything, Oh my gosh, this is
the worst thing could ever that we are encountering people
on literally the worst day of their lives right, and
(04:06):
there are going to be people, but both we both
have an aspirational view of what the FBI can be,
which I think is important imagination work that we should
all be doing. So we have that. But then also
there are people who care. There are people who are
willing to put all of their viscera on the line
(04:26):
to take care of other people. And that makes people
feel better because there are so many people in the
world that have had so many horrible, scared things happen
where no one's been there for them. So be able
to put your nervous system through that journey and have
an end bit that's like, okay, it can be okay.
I think it's really important. And then you add on
(04:48):
top of that ice cream Sunday the fact that all
of us in that main cast get on like a
house on fire, and we're all passionate about making sure
that all I think every single one of us have
been in situations where like we were the co star
or the two line, or that I really want to
be an actor, but I don't have any credits place
(05:10):
at one point in another. So it's really important for
us for our guest cast to feel like you're part
of this, Yes, and I think we're we're that way
with the crew, and that's not like because we're lovely people,
that's just that's the right way to behave at work. Yes,
So we all really deeply care about each other. So
you can feel that as you know, because as we're shooting,
(05:34):
we really care about each other. We're not playing a
game of you know, that person's the start. I mean,
obviously Joe Mantenna is the start. Obviously Pageant Browoster's the start.
But I'm saying that we don't do that, none of us.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
There's no hierarchy in that way.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Like yep, I do think that's why you know, people
might who viewers might not necessarily be able to pick
that out right, but they can understand there's something that
feels very authentic ticket and very kind of community base.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And when you're dealing with a show.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
That's really trying to understand human behavior, you know, rather
than just solving crimes, it's like it's it's kind of key.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
And so yeah, it's the transparency. You know, me and
the girls, I remember this is pre this this iteration
of criminal minds. I mean, we all sat in my
hot tub and really, how much do you make, How
much do you make? How much? Okay you need to make?
Make like that kind of time of it is happening
all over and our boss Eric Amesser, the way she
runs the place, there's a transparency that's an authenticity and
(06:35):
a taking responsibility for your behavior. Like it's not like
it's always perfect, you know what I mean? You could
look up all kinds of things in the news and
things things that have happened on criminal minds, but like
the degree of like, oh we did that, let's make
it better is right evasive?
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So what do you think you've You've spoken about being
interested in understanding people rather than just reducing them to labels,
which is very much how what I'm interested in also,
and especially in doing this podcast where we're talking about
some pretty grisly things, I'm really mainly interested in, like
(07:12):
how do we how do we do these things as
human beings? So like, what do you think that we
gain by asking why instead of just stopping it what happened?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Gosh?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I think it all is why, because if you stop
at what happened, then the person who's talking about what
happened gets to be in their own reactivity, right they
get to wring their hands and say how bad that
person is. What I mean by that is that instead
of hey, why did they do that? Or let's go
a little deeper or whatever, it's like, no, let's talk
(07:48):
about how terrible, No, let's go right, and that kind
of thing. It hijacks your nervous system. It's intentional to
get you off the topic. It's a classic, uh borderline
narcissistic any of us who the parent or anybody like that,
who did that, those kind of things, it's a classic jarvo. Right,
It's classic. So when another person, even when they're talking
(08:11):
about somebody that did something terrible, to kind of get
into that, which I understand, I'm going to show that
like that's its bread and butter, right is doing that.
But but the fun part is why the fun part
I'm saying fun but the but the but the part
that you always have to remember is that that is
(08:33):
any one of us, we're one arrownet away. You know,
by the grace of God, all of us and the
grace of Goddess all of us had wonky uh fissures,
terrible moments that happened to us in our childhood. And
some people that the the you know, the the prom
(08:53):
queen didn't get a pony, and that hurts her maybe
in it because of the way her nervous sysim is
in the same way that somebody who's you know, parent
through some water on their head and in front of
some friends or whatever. Right, So like you don't know
how those things form, and we're all just one blip away, yeah,
from not being that person. So it's it's just something
(09:18):
I think that we have to keep in mind. And
and I think we live in a world where I
don't want to live in that world. I feel like
we are told to live in a world where like
someone does something wrong, punish them, forget about it, it
goes away. And that, right, that isn't true.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Right, It's like calling someone evil Charles Manson evil, Well, okay,
but that doesn't really like help us understand anything.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It doesn't give us any perspective.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yes, And I do think that the part where you
get to say evil, reprehensible, shameful, gross disgusting is behavior
Like someone's behavior can be like that when you are
I have the ability to reduce a whole human animal
(10:04):
to that and ignore the whatever that chapter all.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
The all the monsters source or the monsters that.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Created that monster, the monster that got off the hook
for creating that. Yeah, and I used to think that
about I think that about world leaders all the time.
I'm like, oh my god, their mom never hugged them.
What does that do to your mind? And what do
you now think about other people? Because that's the other
part is that all those people are operating, I think,
assuming that we're all wearing the same glasses that they are.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
It's so curious because in all of the you know,
if we've covered Ted Bundy and all these kinds of
serial killers, and there are certain people that have had
the same upbringing, for example, and don't do the same things.
You know, one becomes a serial killer and one goes
to therapy, you know, or one becomes a therapist or
(11:11):
you know, like there are many different ways that these
things evolve. So it's it's really you know, So, what
do you think, looking back on the whole show and
all of it, what do you think that Criminal Minds
has always been trying to say about human behavior.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I think it's been trying to say. I think, well,
I'm trying to put put on my eric a messer
hat and try to think Erica, our showrunner, would say.
I think that she would say, like, the heroes are
always there, right, I think that that's what she would say.
I always say that on our best day, and I
think she would agree with this too. I think our
best day are my episodes that I love. And you're
(11:48):
talking to someone who is clinically diagnosed autistic. And I
am unable to watch the very show I am on
because my imagination does not underst stand it's not really
happening in the moment I'm watching it. So I have read, Oh,
I've written five episodes of the show, and you know
you'll watch them again and again in terms of cuts,
(12:11):
and I have to disassociate to do to do that.
But I think that the show. And but I read
all the episodes, we do table reads in them. I
always say, like, you get to choose. I can either
be in the show or watch the show. But I
can't do both because I couldn't watch the show for
recreational purposes. It wouldn't be the way I consume entertainment,
(12:34):
you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, And I love watching my friends act and I
do write. If aj Or directs an episode, I'm gonna
be like, Okay, I'm gonna see here. I'm gonna watch it,
but I can't watch one, you know, tip to tail,
I can't.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
You can't, so you can watch it, but you just
don't watch yourself, or you can't.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Oh, I can't watch I can't watch any of violent
stuff and violent anything hold up to violent. You know,
we classically do episodes where it's like people are living
their best lives. They're having like this fun moment, it's
very relatable, and then here comes a guy to disembowel
the mother who just got her favorite, you know what
I mean. And like I am sitting there. I could
(13:13):
have read that thing three times and I'm like, oh no,
like and I think my job, that's really great because
my imagination goes, oh, it's just Kirsten over here, Penelope
Garcia is dealing with this, this, this, this, this, and
it's happening and I'm in it and I'm there. I
don't think anybody you would want to anybody who had
(13:37):
that kind of job would want to be like, let
me go home and watch it, you know what I mean,
let me go home and yeah, this thing, I don't
so that. But like, also I was back to I
think that our show at its best is when we
talk about monsters creating monsters.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, right, like hurt people, hurt people, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
It makes everybody all. I'm not saying people should be
you know, let off the hook and not have to
take responsibility for things that they do. I'm not saying
we shouldn't protect more. I mean I'm as I am.
I am like most of the world A have had,
(14:16):
you know, sexual trauma, and people do things and whatever,
and you want people to be held responsible and yes,
those people to not do that to anybody else. Again.
I just think that the way in which we incarcerate
and punish it doesn't get to the end result. It
sort of covers and it doesn't take care of very
(14:39):
people who had the thing.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Right, Like, you're not saying that these things are you know,
excuses for behavior. They're just explanations if there is a
reason for these things, and it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Make it right. It just explains like what's happening and
how we got there?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, and can we stop the button?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
I have a one of the people who I have
been lucky enough to meet on my adventures and criminal minds.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
She is.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I can talk about this because they've adverted about it.
She is who they named Emily after on our show,
and she used to work for the FBI, and she
created a thing where they were able to use an
algorithm to be able to look at a teenager social
media and be able to tell based on music they
listened to, based on their social behaviors, if they were
(15:29):
more or less likely to participate in school shooting. And
they've been able to stop children. They've gotten to these
kids and gone like hey, hey, and been able to
find evidence of that they were going to do that
and be able to stop it before it happens. So
now we've got a kid who hasn't done anything wrong
(15:49):
aside from maybe some minor quote unquote like gathering munitions
or whatever, like not gone and killed another human being yet,
and you're able to take them and get them what
they need so that they don't do more.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
That is extraordinary. That is so amazing.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, And that's the kind of thing where I feel like,
why it's really good to know why people do things,
because if you can catch if you can catch the
oh my gosh, this kid's doing this, this, this, and
there's someone there, I mean, that's really the key is
that a lot of times, these kids, a lot of
times people, there's no one there. When a lot of
(16:29):
these things happened to any of us, there was either
no one there or there were people protecting the person
because their brains, because of what happened to them, they
could handle it happening. So it's all these people trying
to cover things up, thinking, oh, if we lift this
rock and all the bugs come out, it's just going
to be too overwhelming, you know, And that's never true.
(16:53):
There's there's a lot of rocks, and there's a lot
of bugs under the rocks, and they're going we need
to get the bugs right, yes, right.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
In several interviews, you've described Garcia as somebody who always
tries to hold on to her humanity. So why do
you think audiences respond so strongly to that balance of
compassion and optimism.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I it comes. It's one of the things about Garcia
because I came in with just like two lines. I
wasn't supposed to be in more than one episode, and
then it just kind of I kind of stayed. I
love that that I got to be one of the
architects of her as she went along. I also didn't
know I was going to keep the job, so I
(17:37):
kept leaving things in my fake office. I leave my
grandmother's candy dish, and I thought, well, if they fire me,
I'll have to come back and get it. And then
I could walk by the art department be like those
smart intern Yeah. So I sort of created her kind
of based on like an aspirational version of myself. I
can't type, I don't understand, you know, I a mathematics
(18:00):
like that, I need a lot things that are an
exact science like I'm a good comp I'm a terrible
baker like that. Science things are really hard for me
to to latch onto. And I so I created this
sort of aspirational person. But there are parts of her
that I think are I believe in and I think
are important. And so the ability to understand that monsters
(18:26):
are created by monsters, and the ability to put yourself
in someone else's shoes and and and not get over
that blip, but not get over the blip of like
not get jaded.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, it's very hopeful. It's a hopeful.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And I know people, I mean some people, and I
you know what I mean. I I understand that Garcia,
I understand that me. There are people that aren't for everybody,
you know what I mean, And I that's a lesson.
I think we all learn as like some people aren't
gonna like your flavor ice cream, and that's okay, and
so I'm but I and I am like a strong spice.
(19:07):
So you can't put Garcia in a lot of the show,
and people kind of don't believe that, Like, no, no
one can be that. That part comes so easy for
me because of the fact that I think that the
only way you can truly hunker down and take a
bite out of true pain and despair and awfulness is
(19:28):
if the best fuel is joy. And I'm not talking
about faky pos whatever. I'm talking about pure and adulterated
pleasure and like that pleasure seeker. So I am like
that she gets her pleasure from other things than me.
She can extract pleasure easier from different things than I can,
(19:49):
and vice versa. But I think that we all want
that part of ourselves. But that part does come really
easy for me. I we're neighbors, me and Garcia, not
the same person, but we're definitely like I I don't
even know if we'd be friends, But because I don't know,
(20:09):
I don't. I don't know if we have the same
things in common. Sometimes I do, I don't know, But
like I I'm happy that she helps people because I
want people to feel the thing that I want when
I'm scared, you know, which somebody cares and somebody can
do something. You want someone to be able to get
(20:32):
how badly do we all want someone to like get
in there and like fix it, you know what I mean,
and and stop it, and that someone can do that,
and that if I can use my imagination for that
and like I'm just playing pretend on a TV show,
I'm not caring cancer, there are people out there that
are really doing that stuff. And so the more we
can use our imagination to imaginate that stuff. There are
(20:55):
people out there, you know what I mean. There are
doctors that are making like I know, got doctors maybe
like they've tricked tumors in a kid's brain to think
it's polio and then given a kid the polio vaccine
and it's made the tumor shrink. There's someone who's you know,
need like, so there's there's reason, there's things, and we're
(21:16):
predisposed to think we're being chased by a tiger, which
is why everyone loves Criminal Minds. But the truth is,
very rarely are we actually we have a tiger here,
you have one here, but we're very rarely being chased
by a tiger.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
And I think these are inanimate.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Opricia is the reminder to all of us that, like,
we have to choose to find the good, right, It's
a really joyful practice.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
I love that because then that also offers up that
it's kind of a choice. We have a choice of
how we want to go through the world, and we
can It can be optimistic and with compassion, or it
can be you know.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
I think very few people have the privilege of being
in despair. There are people in so much despair right
now that they don't feel like they have the privilege
of being indiscrible like so I find it very strange too,
Like that would be very strange for me, especially even Garcia,
Like she's having to deal with all this stuff that
these people are going through. Why would she be upset?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Right, It's like a constant barometer.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Yeah, like I'm okay, I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So which Over the years, Criminal Minds has a splore
to everything from serial offenders to family violence and coercion,
and which or what kinds of stories have stayed with
you the longest.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I'm a real again because I have a hard time
watching the show. So the ones that stay with me
the longest let me think I really enjoy the magical
realism as we do. Which I don't know if everybody
else loves those, but like a lot of times, Breen Frasier,
who's one of our other executive producers, writes those I
(23:08):
love an Erica one. I love all of our writers
are so good, but like I love a weird episode,
I tend to default to those, but I always, and
this is really super cheesy, I usually love the episode
we're on, you know, because that's again and I don't
know if that's my autism talking or whatever, but I'm
so focused.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
That's also very zen.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
This is happening, so like, right after we get on this,
I'm going to go to work and I love my job,
and I go to work and I'm be like, Okay,
this is the most important thing we've ever done. And
it does genuinely feel like that to me, And I
know that probably makes me like, but it's true. Of course,
the ones I've written I really care about, like yeah,
(23:55):
Nelson Sparrow. I co wrote all of the episodes I wrote.
I co wrote with Erica Messer. I haven't co written
in the new iteration of it because for my favorite
reason in the world, which is we have a very
much smaller writers from than we used to have because
of the breakdown of business, which I'm looking forward to
(24:17):
it growing back. But Erica chose to hire writers that
had been writers assistance and had come up from Criminal Minds.
They know this show like nobody's business. So if I
were to co write an episode, I would be taking
work away from some truly incredible writers and the episode.
(24:39):
There's no way that my episode would be as good
and Erica has, which is the great thing about the show.
And I don't understand it. Aerica has so many ideas still,
like we're about to end our twentieth season, that first
episode of season twenty will be our three hundred and
sixty fifth episode, and she still has like a so
(25:00):
I don't ever when she comes and says like, here's
I can't think of anything, I'll be like, oh, let
me write one with you. But like I helped her
write Nelson Sparrow. I co wrote Nelson, which is the
episode where we find out that spoiler alert from a
long time ago. Gideon dies I co wrote there was
an arc that happened with Matthew Greg Goobluf's character Spencer
(25:20):
and I start. I wrote the episode that started that
arc where he gets arrested in Mexico. I wrote Beautiful Disaster.
That's the last episode that Shamar Moore was in of
the show. All of those were meaningful because they were
character based, you know, from a singular character. And then
(25:41):
I wrote We wrote Full Tilt Boogie, which was strangely
about something that if you watch it, we were writing
it going like we're going to get in trouble like
people because we were doing research about like people that
were getting like like off in Florida, and we're talking
about these and it was like a little and it
was that one was important to me because as the
(26:02):
daughter of a addict, I got to write things and
do things and talk about things in a way that
you know, was important to me. And then I wrote
the series finale with her uh and and that was
really great. So I like a like relational.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Ones, Yes, yes, did you did? Did writing change the
way you thought about criminal behavior?
Speaker 3 (26:29):
I don't think so. I remember, like, we sometimes have
an FBI analyst BAU, like a person who used to
work them that would consult with us, and a lot
of times I would not battle with him, but he'd
be like, well, that's not how it is. That's how
it is, right. I was like, I understand, but we're
(26:53):
not doing it like we're playing pretend. And I decided
in my town that this is gonna have you so
like we which I understand. Some people are purests and
you want it to be exactly how it would be,
and I like the fantastical.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, I mean, you literally just answered the question that
I was going to ask, which was what are the
challenges that come with exploring real world themes through fiction?
Speaker 1 (27:17):
And you just answered it.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
But oftentimes you end up writing fiction and then it happens.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Right, Well, that's it for today, but don't miss part
two of my conversation with Kirsten Vang's Ness.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
We'll leave the world of the Bau
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Behind and dive into another unforgettable role as Kirsten takes
us inside the shocking true story behind Amish stud the
Eli Weaver story, a case involving deception, obsession, and a
murder that shattered one of America's most private communities.
Hey, everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Joining me
today is the incredibly talented actress and writer Kirsten Vangsness,
whom millions of fans know as FBI technical analyst Penelo
be Garcia from Criminal Minds and now Criminal Minds Evolution.
For more than twenty years, Garcia has been the heart
(00:35):
of the BAU, helping audiences understand not just who commits
horrific crimes, but why we are exploring the real life
criminal psychology that inspires Criminal Minds, and why the series
has remained one of television's most fascinating explorations of human behavior. Hi, Kirsten,
Welcome to Killer Thriller.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
We have a lot of things to cover today, So
first we're going to talk about Criminal Minds. You know,
maybe one of the most successful television shows to ever
be a television show, and one of the things that
Criminal Minds and now Criminal Minds Evolution has always done
(01:20):
so well is ask not just who committed the crime,
but why and why do you think audiences have connected
with that approach for so many years?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I think that all of us do. I mean, think
about when you might have been in some sort of
disagreement with someone you're super duper close to, whether it's
a primary caregiver and you're an adult now, or whether
you have a beloved or someone you have a crush on,
some a deep friend and something happens. We've all been
(01:55):
there where something happens and our defenses go up. We
get super contracted and they either I mean, depending on
how much therapy you've had or whatever, right a lot
in my case, right me to you, me too. But
you've heard people, I've heard myself. You do things and
say things. You're like, that's not me. I don't do
that at all. We segment off parts of ourselves and
we go, oh, I would never, I would never, never, never, never,
(02:18):
And people do, especially in the world now. I think
we're getting better. But this idea that like, oh everybody acts,
so everybody's so together, and oh yeah, when I make pasta,
it's just like how it looks like the girl does
it on Instagram and everything's clean, right yeah, when I
spread my tofu, that's exact. No. So this idea, I
(02:40):
think we all do, think behave in sometimes reprehensible ways.
And the deal is is that behavior can be disgusting
human beings. Everybody came into this earth and just wanted
to take their next breath and where it it's all
(03:00):
wonky and strange, is what some people decide they need
to take their next breath? Or you know, the audacity,
the temerity of people in the world right now, some
of which are running the government to behave in ways
that like, oh, I can just do this and like
(03:20):
and they get away with it, and you're like, the
temerity of that, and it makes you very curious and
in an expanded, really hyperbolic in the way of criminal
minds way, because oh my gosh, we all have to
remember that there's not that many serial killers walking around
at one time given moment. But in that hyperbolic way
that criminal minds does it, you can both narrow it
(03:42):
down to the things that happen in your life. And
I know for a lot of feminine bet creatures, I
hear a lot of this is my comfort show, This
is my comfort show, And I think that I date, yeah,
that idea of like everything, Oh my gosh, this is
the worst thing could ever that we are encountering people
on literally the worst day of their lives right, and
(04:06):
there are going to be people, but both we both
have an aspirational view of what the FBI can be,
which I think is important imagination work that we should
all be doing. So we have that. But then also
there are people who care. There are people who are
willing to put all of their viscera on the line
(04:26):
to take care of other people. And that makes people
feel better because there are so many people in the
world that have had so many horrible, scared things happen
where no one's been there for them. So be able
to put your nervous system through that journey and have
an end bit that's like, okay, it can be okay.
I think it's really important. And then you add on
(04:48):
top of that ice cream Sunday the fact that all
of us in that main cast get on like a
house on fire, and we're all passionate about making sure
that all I think every single one of us have
been in situations where like we were the co star
or the two line, or that I really want to
be an actor, but I don't have any credits place
(05:10):
at one point in another. So it's really important for
us for our guest cast to feel like you're part
of this, Yes, and I think we're we're that way
with the crew, and that's not like because we're lovely people,
that's just that's the right way to behave at work. Yes,
So we all really deeply care about each other. So
you can feel that as you know, because as we're shooting,
(05:34):
we really care about each other. We're not playing a
game of you know, that person's the start. I mean,
obviously Joe Mantenna is the start. Obviously Pageant Browoster's the start.
But I'm saying that we don't do that, none of us.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
There's no hierarchy in that way.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Like yep, I do think that's why you know, people
might who viewers might not necessarily be able to pick
that out right, but they can understand there's something that
feels very authentic ticket and very kind of community base.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And when you're dealing with a show.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
That's really trying to understand human behavior, you know, rather
than just solving crimes, it's like it's it's kind of key.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
And so yeah, it's the transparency. You know, me and
the girls, I remember this is pre this this iteration
of criminal minds. I mean, we all sat in my
hot tub and really, how much do you make, How
much do you make? How much? Okay you need to make?
Make like that kind of time of it is happening
all over and our boss Eric Amesser, the way she
runs the place, there's a transparency that's an authenticity and
(06:35):
a taking responsibility for your behavior. Like it's not like
it's always perfect, you know what I mean? You could
look up all kinds of things in the news and
things things that have happened on criminal minds, but like
the degree of like, oh we did that, let's make
it better is right evasive?
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Right?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So what do you think you've You've spoken about being
interested in understanding people rather than just reducing them to labels,
which is very much how what I'm interested in also,
and especially in doing this podcast where we're talking about
some pretty grisly things, I'm really mainly interested in, like
(07:12):
how do we how do we do these things as
human beings? So like, what do you think that we
gain by asking why instead of just stopping it what happened?
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Gosh?
Speaker 3 (07:25):
I think it all is why, because if you stop
at what happened, then the person who's talking about what
happened gets to be in their own reactivity, right they
get to wring their hands and say how bad that
person is. What I mean by that is that instead
of hey, why did they do that? Or let's go
a little deeper or whatever, it's like, no, let's talk
(07:48):
about how terrible, No, let's go right, and that kind
of thing. It hijacks your nervous system. It's intentional to
get you off the topic. It's a classic, uh borderline
narcissistic any of us who the parent or anybody like that,
who did that, those kind of things, it's a classic jarvo. Right,
It's classic. So when another person, even when they're talking
(08:11):
about somebody that did something terrible, to kind of get
into that, which I understand, I'm going to show that
like that's its bread and butter, right is doing that.
But but the fun part is why the fun part
I'm saying fun but the but the but the part
that you always have to remember is that that is
(08:33):
any one of us, we're one arrownet away. You know,
by the grace of God, all of us and the
grace of Goddess all of us had wonky uh fissures,
terrible moments that happened to us in our childhood. And
some people that the the you know, the the prom
(08:53):
queen didn't get a pony, and that hurts her maybe
in it because of the way her nervous sysim is
in the same way that somebody who's you know, parent
through some water on their head and in front of
some friends or whatever. Right, So like you don't know
how those things form, and we're all just one blip away, yeah,
from not being that person. So it's it's just something
(09:18):
I think that we have to keep in mind. And
and I think we live in a world where I
don't want to live in that world. I feel like
we are told to live in a world where like
someone does something wrong, punish them, forget about it, it
goes away. And that, right, that isn't true.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Right, It's like calling someone evil Charles Manson evil, Well, okay,
but that doesn't really like help us understand anything.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It doesn't give us any perspective.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yes, And I do think that the part where you
get to say evil, reprehensible, shameful, gross disgusting is behavior
Like someone's behavior can be like that when you are
I have the ability to reduce a whole human animal
(10:04):
to that and ignore the whatever that chapter all.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
The all the monsters source or the monsters that.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Created that monster, the monster that got off the hook
for creating that. Yeah, and I used to think that
about I think that about world leaders all the time.
I'm like, oh my god, their mom never hugged them.
What does that do to your mind? And what do
you now think about other people? Because that's the other
part is that all those people are operating, I think,
assuming that we're all wearing the same glasses that they are.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
It's so curious because in all of the you know,
if we've covered Ted Bundy and all these kinds of
serial killers, and there are certain people that have had
the same upbringing, for example, and don't do the same things.
You know, one becomes a serial killer and one goes
to therapy, you know, or one becomes a therapist or
(11:11):
you know, like there are many different ways that these
things evolve. So it's it's really you know, So, what
do you think, looking back on the whole show and
all of it, what do you think that Criminal Minds
has always been trying to say about human behavior.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I think it's been trying to say. I think, well,
I'm trying to put put on my eric a messer
hat and try to think Erica, our showrunner, would say.
I think that she would say, like, the heroes are
always there, right, I think that that's what she would say.
I always say that on our best day, and I
think she would agree with this too. I think our
best day are my episodes that I love. And you're
(11:48):
talking to someone who is clinically diagnosed autistic. And I
am unable to watch the very show I am on
because my imagination does not underst stand it's not really
happening in the moment I'm watching it. So I have read, Oh,
I've written five episodes of the show, and you know
you'll watch them again and again in terms of cuts,
(12:11):
and I have to disassociate to do to do that.
But I think that the show. And but I read
all the episodes, we do table reads in them. I
always say, like, you get to choose. I can either
be in the show or watch the show. But I
can't do both because I couldn't watch the show for
recreational purposes. It wouldn't be the way I consume entertainment,
(12:34):
you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, And I love watching my friends act and I
do write. If aj Or directs an episode, I'm gonna
be like, Okay, I'm gonna see here. I'm gonna watch it,
but I can't watch one, you know, tip to tail,
I can't.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
You can't, so you can watch it, but you just
don't watch yourself, or you can't.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Oh, I can't watch I can't watch any of violent
stuff and violent anything hold up to violent. You know,
we classically do episodes where it's like people are living
their best lives. They're having like this fun moment, it's
very relatable, and then here comes a guy to disembowel
the mother who just got her favorite, you know what
I mean. And like I am sitting there. I could
(13:13):
have read that thing three times and I'm like, oh no,
like and I think my job, that's really great because
my imagination goes, oh, it's just Kirsten over here, Penelope
Garcia is dealing with this, this, this, this, this, and
it's happening and I'm in it and I'm there. I
don't think anybody you would want to anybody who had
(13:37):
that kind of job would want to be like, let
me go home and watch it, you know what I mean,
let me go home and yeah, this thing, I don't
so that. But like, also I was back to I
think that our show at its best is when we
talk about monsters creating monsters.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, right, like hurt people, hurt people, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
It makes everybody all. I'm not saying people should be
you know, let off the hook and not have to
take responsibility for things that they do. I'm not saying
we shouldn't protect more. I mean I'm as I am.
I am like most of the world A have had,
(14:16):
you know, sexual trauma, and people do things and whatever,
and you want people to be held responsible and yes,
those people to not do that to anybody else. Again.
I just think that the way in which we incarcerate
and punish it doesn't get to the end result. It
sort of covers and it doesn't take care of very
(14:39):
people who had the thing.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Right, Like, you're not saying that these things are you know,
excuses for behavior. They're just explanations if there is a
reason for these things, and it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Make it right. It just explains like what's happening and
how we got there?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Yeah, and can we stop the button?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
I have a one of the people who I have
been lucky enough to meet on my adventures and criminal minds.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
She is.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
I can talk about this because they've adverted about it.
She is who they named Emily after on our show,
and she used to work for the FBI, and she
created a thing where they were able to use an
algorithm to be able to look at a teenager social
media and be able to tell based on music they
listened to, based on their social behaviors, if they were
(15:29):
more or less likely to participate in school shooting. And
they've been able to stop children. They've gotten to these
kids and gone like hey, hey, and been able to
find evidence of that they were going to do that
and be able to stop it before it happens. So
now we've got a kid who hasn't done anything wrong
(15:49):
aside from maybe some minor quote unquote like gathering munitions
or whatever, like not gone and killed another human being yet,
and you're able to take them and get them what
they need so that they don't do more.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
That is extraordinary. That is so amazing.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, And that's the kind of thing where I feel like,
why it's really good to know why people do things,
because if you can catch if you can catch the
oh my gosh, this kid's doing this, this, this, and
there's someone there, I mean, that's really the key is
that a lot of times, these kids, a lot of
times people, there's no one there. When a lot of
(16:29):
these things happened to any of us, there was either
no one there or there were people protecting the person
because their brains, because of what happened to them, they
could handle it happening. So it's all these people trying
to cover things up, thinking, oh, if we lift this
rock and all the bugs come out, it's just going
to be too overwhelming, you know, And that's never true.
(16:53):
There's there's a lot of rocks, and there's a lot
of bugs under the rocks, and they're going we need
to get the bugs right, yes, right.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
In several interviews, you've described Garcia as somebody who always
tries to hold on to her humanity. So why do
you think audiences respond so strongly to that balance of
compassion and optimism.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
I it comes. It's one of the things about Garcia
because I came in with just like two lines. I
wasn't supposed to be in more than one episode, and
then it just kind of I kind of stayed. I
love that that I got to be one of the
architects of her as she went along. I also didn't
know I was going to keep the job, so I
(17:37):
kept leaving things in my fake office. I leave my
grandmother's candy dish, and I thought, well, if they fire me,
I'll have to come back and get it. And then
I could walk by the art department be like those
smart intern Yeah. So I sort of created her kind
of based on like an aspirational version of myself. I
can't type, I don't understand, you know, I a mathematics
(18:00):
like that, I need a lot things that are an
exact science like I'm a good comp I'm a terrible
baker like that. Science things are really hard for me
to to latch onto. And I so I created this
sort of aspirational person. But there are parts of her
that I think are I believe in and I think
are important. And so the ability to understand that monsters
(18:26):
are created by monsters, and the ability to put yourself
in someone else's shoes and and and not get over
that blip, but not get over the blip of like
not get jaded.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, it's very hopeful. It's a hopeful.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And I know people, I mean some people, and I
you know what I mean. I I understand that Garcia,
I understand that me. There are people that aren't for everybody,
you know what I mean, And I that's a lesson.
I think we all learn as like some people aren't
gonna like your flavor ice cream, and that's okay, and
so I'm but I and I am like a strong spice.
(19:07):
So you can't put Garcia in a lot of the show,
and people kind of don't believe that, Like, no, no
one can be that. That part comes so easy for
me because of the fact that I think that the
only way you can truly hunker down and take a
bite out of true pain and despair and awfulness is
(19:28):
if the best fuel is joy. And I'm not talking
about faky pos whatever. I'm talking about pure and adulterated
pleasure and like that pleasure seeker. So I am like
that she gets her pleasure from other things than me.
She can extract pleasure easier from different things than I can,
(19:49):
and vice versa. But I think that we all want
that part of ourselves. But that part does come really
easy for me. I we're neighbors, me and Garcia, not
the same person, but we're definitely like I I don't
even know if we'd be friends, But because I don't know,
(20:09):
I don't. I don't know if we have the same
things in common. Sometimes I do, I don't know, But
like I I'm happy that she helps people because I
want people to feel the thing that I want when
I'm scared, you know, which somebody cares and somebody can
do something. You want someone to be able to get
(20:32):
how badly do we all want someone to like get
in there and like fix it, you know what I mean,
and and stop it, and that someone can do that,
and that if I can use my imagination for that
and like I'm just playing pretend on a TV show,
I'm not caring cancer, there are people out there that
are really doing that stuff. And so the more we
can use our imagination to imaginate that stuff. There are
(20:55):
people out there, you know what I mean. There are
doctors that are making like I know, got doctors maybe
like they've tricked tumors in a kid's brain to think
it's polio and then given a kid the polio vaccine
and it's made the tumor shrink. There's someone who's you know,
need like, so there's there's reason, there's things, and we're
(21:16):
predisposed to think we're being chased by a tiger, which
is why everyone loves Criminal Minds. But the truth is,
very rarely are we actually we have a tiger here,
you have one here, but we're very rarely being chased
by a tiger.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
And I think these are inanimate.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Opricia is the reminder to all of us that, like,
we have to choose to find the good, right, It's
a really joyful practice.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
I love that because then that also offers up that
it's kind of a choice. We have a choice of
how we want to go through the world, and we
can It can be optimistic and with compassion, or it
can be you know.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
I think very few people have the privilege of being
in despair. There are people in so much despair right
now that they don't feel like they have the privilege
of being indiscrible like so I find it very strange too,
Like that would be very strange for me, especially even Garcia,
Like she's having to deal with all this stuff that
these people are going through. Why would she be upset?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Right, It's like a constant barometer.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Yeah, like I'm okay, I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So which Over the years, Criminal Minds has a splore
to everything from serial offenders to family violence and coercion,
and which or what kinds of stories have stayed with
you the longest.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I'm a real again because I have a hard time
watching the show. So the ones that stay with me
the longest let me think I really enjoy the magical
realism as we do. Which I don't know if everybody
else loves those, but like a lot of times, Breen Frasier,
who's one of our other executive producers, writes those I
(23:08):
love an Erica one. I love all of our writers
are so good, but like I love a weird episode,
I tend to default to those, but I always, and
this is really super cheesy, I usually love the episode
we're on, you know, because that's again and I don't
know if that's my autism talking or whatever, but I'm
so focused.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
That's also very zen.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
This is happening, so like, right after we get on this,
I'm going to go to work and I love my job,
and I go to work and I'm be like, Okay,
this is the most important thing we've ever done. And
it does genuinely feel like that to me, And I
know that probably makes me like, but it's true. Of course,
the ones I've written I really care about, like yeah,
(23:55):
Nelson Sparrow. I co wrote all of the episodes I wrote.
I co wrote with Erica Messer. I haven't co written
in the new iteration of it because for my favorite
reason in the world, which is we have a very
much smaller writers from than we used to have because
of the breakdown of business, which I'm looking forward to
(24:17):
it growing back. But Erica chose to hire writers that
had been writers assistance and had come up from Criminal Minds.
They know this show like nobody's business. So if I
were to co write an episode, I would be taking
work away from some truly incredible writers and the episode.
(24:39):
There's no way that my episode would be as good
and Erica has, which is the great thing about the show.
And I don't understand it. Aerica has so many ideas still,
like we're about to end our twentieth season, that first
episode of season twenty will be our three hundred and
sixty fifth episode, and she still has like a so
(25:00):
I don't ever when she comes and says like, here's
I can't think of anything, I'll be like, oh, let
me write one with you. But like I helped her
write Nelson Sparrow. I co wrote Nelson, which is the
episode where we find out that spoiler alert from a
long time ago. Gideon dies I co wrote there was
an arc that happened with Matthew Greg Goobluf's character Spencer
(25:20):
and I start. I wrote the episode that started that
arc where he gets arrested in Mexico. I wrote Beautiful Disaster.
That's the last episode that Shamar Moore was in of
the show. All of those were meaningful because they were
character based, you know, from a singular character. And then
(25:41):
I wrote We wrote Full Tilt Boogie, which was strangely
about something that if you watch it, we were writing
it going like we're going to get in trouble like
people because we were doing research about like people that
were getting like like off in Florida, and we're talking
about these and it was like a little and it
was that one was important to me because as the
(26:02):
daughter of a addict, I got to write things and
do things and talk about things in a way that
you know, was important to me. And then I wrote
the series finale with her uh and and that was
really great. So I like a like relational.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Ones, Yes, yes, did you did? Did writing change the
way you thought about criminal behavior?
Speaker 3 (26:29):
I don't think so. I remember, like, we sometimes have
an FBI analyst BAU, like a person who used to
work them that would consult with us, and a lot
of times I would not battle with him, but he'd
be like, well, that's not how it is. That's how
it is, right. I was like, I understand, but we're
(26:53):
not doing it like we're playing pretend. And I decided
in my town that this is gonna have you so
like we which I understand. Some people are purests and
you want it to be exactly how it would be,
and I like the fantastical.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, I mean, you literally just answered the question that
I was going to ask, which was what are the
challenges that come with exploring real world themes through fiction?
Speaker 1 (27:17):
And you just answered it.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
But oftentimes you end up writing fiction and then it happens.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Right, Well, that's it for today, but don't miss part
two of my conversation with Kirsten Vang's Ness.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
We'll leave the world of the Bau
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Behind and dive into another unforgettable role as Kirsten takes
us inside the shocking true story behind Amish stud the
Eli Weaver story, a case involving deception, obsession, and a
murder that shattered one of America's most private communities.
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