April 18, 2026 • 35 mins
In August 2018, Richard “Beebo” Russell, a ground service agent with no flying experience, stole a commercial plane from Seattle–Tacoma International Airport and took it on a wild solo flight. Director of the new Hulu Documentary #SkyKing, Patricia E. Gillespie, shares what actually happened, using real air traffic control recordings and interviews to piece it all together. In Sky King, she sits down with Beebo’s friends and family to paint a more personal picture of the man behind the headlines.
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hi, guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU Edition. I'm
your host, Jen Fessler. So today we are talking about
the new Hulu documentary sky King. You guys, this was
unlike a lot of the true crime documentaries that I've
watched and that we've talked about here on the pod.
August tenth day after my birthday, twenty eighteen, and I
(00:35):
remember this. A Horizon airplane was stolen from Seattle Tacoma
International Airport by twenty eight year old Richard Russell. Everybody
called him Bibo and a Horizon Air ground service agent,
so he had no piloting experience.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
He was the guy that you.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
See in the orange vest taking the luggage off the plane,
putting the luggage back on the plane. So he was
an incredible guy and he performed this unauthorized takeoff and
SeaTac air traffic control made radio contact with him.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
He was the only guy on the plane.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
He stole the plane, and he started to talk to
air traffic control. He described himself as a broken guy.
He said, I got a few screws loose, I guess,
which was heartbreaking because when you watch this you see
that this guy was the kindest, warmest most hard working,
devoted guy.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I fell in love with him watching it, and he
had everything going for him, but he ended up stealing
this plane. He does what's called a barrel roll in it,
which is basically an impossible thing to do, and these
were his last moments of life, and he, you know,
purposefully crashes the aircraft into the Katron Island. And you know,
he wanted to die by suicide and this was the
(01:49):
way that he wanted to go and there were no
other collateral human injuries.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
He was a soul fatality.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
But the film is so incredible and such a fabulous
commentary on not just you know, suicide, but men's roles
in today's culture and how difficult it can be to
provide for your family, you know, mental health, mental illness.
And we're about to bring in the most incredible director.
Her name is Patricia E. Gillespie. Patricia High.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Welcome. We are so happy to have you, all right,
you guys, so welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Patricia, Hi, thank you so much for having me. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Patricia, thank you so much for coming. I have to
tell you, and I was telling my producers before we
had you on this story and we do a lot
of true crime. That's sort of the nature right of
the podcast is true crime doc And I know that
this was a crime, and it could have been an
even worse crime, but there the heart of this felt
like so utterly sad and so it was, I mean,
(02:50):
so poignant. And you know, usually when I'm done watching
one of the crime docs, I'm completely freaked out and
can't sleep and the hairs. This was more like just sadness,
but not in a way. It was such a fascinating
documentary and I feel like something that so many people
can There's so much to take from it, so not
just sadness, also some admiration I think for him and
(03:11):
some and lots of empathy, but and for his family.
But anyway, I'm sorry. I just I thought it was
so that it was so moving. It was really just
a fabulous just congratulations, fabulous work, very welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I'm glad you enjoyed.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It, I really did. I mean, you always feel weird
saying you enjoyed it, right.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Of course, yeah, yeah, but I did. I have to say.
So let's I'm just gonna ask this question right off
the bats. We can get it over with, why Bibo
where does that come from?
Speaker 4 (03:42):
So Bibo, I'm probably gonna call him Bibo through this
whole thing, but I'm realizing a lot of the press
is Richard, but I've just debowed him for years.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, so Bibo was.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Actually a name that he got when he was a baby.
He was named after his father, whose name was also Richard.
And I asked Karen, I said, where where does that
word come from? And she says, look at the videos
to him as a kid, he just looks.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Like a little bebo.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
And I remember going through all those images and seeing
his cute little.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Nose and it was the cutest. I get it.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
It's sort of an automotia for how adorable he was.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And he was so adorable, Yeah, he really was. Like
that actually was striking to me too. I mean most
kids that h are adorable, but he was so so
freaking cute and.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Sweet, yeah, and sensitive and all of it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So, you know, I obviously I've read up on you,
and I know that you do like to tell stories
that involve an underdog and maybe somebody who's it's marginalized
the right word. I don't know, but I so is
that what drew you to this story? Did you feel
like he was an underdog. What was it that wanted
to make you tell the story?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
You know, this story in particular was really personal to me.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I grew up working class, and I remember hearing this
audio along with everybody else's little snippets that were sort
of floating around out of context on social media when
this happened, and like so many other people.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
It just grabbed me, grabbed me right part and the gut.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
And he sounded like so many of the people I
grew up with, and he was trying to articulate something
I think that I think a lot of men, but
non exclusively men, people feel about the realities of working
life in the US, about the difficulty to talk about
how you're feeling to get the help you need, and
(05:30):
I wanted to know more. I also heard his voice,
and he sounded so familiar, but also was doing something
so out there, so intense, so unfamiliar, right stealing a plane,
And I wanted to square this really kind voice that
I was hearing with this very dramatic act and sort
of try to cut through some of the politicization and
(05:51):
sensationalism that had come to plague the story and figure
out who really was this guy underneath it all and
what led him to that moment?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
That was the part that was one of the many
parts that was so fascinating to me was that the
you know, reading about how it had been politicized, and
not just reading about it. I mean, you know, his
brother talked about it, his friend talked about it, how
frustrating that was for them, and that you know, people
were using it, using his story to their own advantage
and maybe even monetizing on it, which just is so
(06:24):
heartbreaking and just awful. And I that was like a
whole different part of the story that you know, was
very sort of upsetting, and the aftermath of it and
what his family and his friends had to deal with.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Yeah, I think we live in a really intense media
environment and a lot of times when something when a
story that that sort of grabs attention comes out, it's
there's a temptation to sort of take your stand right
away or like use it to enforce a point. And
one of the things that I think became really clear
to me, and I hope it's clear to audiences making
this story, is that when when you do that, when
(07:01):
you do your hot take and you pump that out
sometimes you miss the human story at the center, and
that human story can have a deeper, more important story,
which in this case was I think a pretty clear
story about class and about what it means to try
to succeed in you know, the changing American economic landscape
that sort of got glossed over in favor of this
(07:22):
discussion of Izia terrorist Asney a terrorist? Did this statement
or that statement mean he was a white nationalist? Or
was this something else? And I'm not seeing those aren't
important conversations to have and to look into. But when
that becomes the only conversation and we calcify into sort
of these black and white positions one and the other end,
we miss a lot of nuance.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Which is which is feels even more relevant now than
it was in twenty.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Eighteen, is that when it happened? Yeah, it feels even
more relevant today. Right.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
This film took a long time to make, but you know,
just it's I feel, in this weird way that we're
right on time.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, you know, I one hundred percent agree with you
because that's exactly what happening. What's happening now, right, It's
just about sides. It's not about humanity. We've lost, you know,
all touch with the human story, and it's just about
what's going to work for this narrative as opposed to
that narrative.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I think another thing that like really.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Stood out to me was how there are a lot
of in the people that are in this film, there
are a lot of different opinions about you know, just
different walks of life. You have a doctor, you have
you know, an age faca, you have all these different
sorts of people. You have old people, young people, men, women,
different political opinions.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
But if you stop and listen.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
And you approach the story from a place of curiosity
rather than judgment, you realize all these people who the
media lines people would tell you couldn't agree on anything,
I actually agree very much about just the realities of life, success, work,
mental health in the US. And those are conversations I
think we need to consciously create a space to have
at a time when we things can feel so polarized.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Absolutely, I love everything that you just said, and I
think about it.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I think about that often.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Hard to even watch the news anymore, because that's all
I see is, you know, the picking apart of very
human issues and how polarizing everything is anyway, Okay, so
tell me something. I know that it was the first
time that the family and that his friends heard the audio.
That must have been so hard, not just for them,
(09:25):
but for you. I mean that it was chilling to me,
like the fact that they when they put on the headphones,
you know, and you heard what they were hearing, especially
at the end when he said he wanted to kill
himself and you just and his poor aunt and sister.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's just awful.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
But that was that hard for you to watch them
go through that? And did it happen over the course
of a day?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
He So we everybody you see in the film that's
full in the interview set up in the listening said
that was a full day. We left a lot of
time for them because it's the kind of thing you
might have to start or stop, or yeah, might spark
a very deep conversation, or it might you might need
to just step off and step away, right, So everybody
had a day where we discussed and listened. Yeah, I
(10:09):
think it's look. I knew that this had to be
a part of this film because at the end of
the day, you're dealing with a suicide, and a suicide
that had been sort of unfortunately glamorized, and I needed
to make sure that at every moment in this film
it was clear to audiences that this isn't glamorous, that
(10:32):
even though there's this idea that suicide ends someone's pain,
the reality is that pain gets passed on to the
people that love that person.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
And I knew we needed this to be sort of
front and center.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Most of the family had heard little pieces of audio,
because like I said, there were snippets.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Already right, people had.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Made super cuts, but there were things that no one
had ever heard that. I'm very lucky my husband's an
archive producer, and so we were able to work on
this together, sort of piecing it together out of these
many little its of audio we got from the fagainst
the black Box transcript. You know, there was there were
moments that they didn't expect to hear, and I think
(11:11):
those always sort of shocked me because you don't know
what someone has or hasn't heard, and I think those
became some of the most powerful moments in the film.
One thing that surprised me was a lot of times
for me I found in the edit, it's not even
what they say that's so powerful, it's how they react
or the look on their face, like it just speaks
in such an immediate human way.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Not that what they say isn't brilliant and important.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
No, it's watching their face. It's watching the pain on
their face. That really, that's what you know, what got me.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's yes.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
And afterwards, of course there are tears and there's discussion,
but that look on their face hearing this person that
they love talk about you know that he was ending.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It was just so.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Sad and awful and his mom and I just was
so drawn to his mom. She seems just like such
a wonderful woman and strong, right, and has she listened
to the audio at all?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
She actually so did.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
She chose not to listen to it at the time
we were making the film, which was a decision I
totally respected. I think, to listen to the last seventy
minutes your son's life like that is unbearable, unbearable.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
She came to we.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Premiered the film it south by Southwest of Film Festival,
and she came and she'd said, I don't know that
I'm going to sit for the movie.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
So I was like, all right, we'll go to this premiere.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
You know, and Karen and I will take a great
walk around Austin while everybody else watches it, and we'll
come in at the end and she'll be able to
see people coming out and them responding, and she's surprised
that she wanted She sat for it, and she watched
the film, and she sat between me and al my fella,
and you know, obviously it's tragic to watch her see this,
(12:48):
but it was also, in a in a bittersweet way,
very beautiful because I think what she did here was really,
really brave. I think that everyone in this film who
loved him coming forward to tell this story, they didn't
do that to get something off their chest. They were
engaging with something incredibly painful because they wanted to help
other people. And there's this this lie that depression can
(13:11):
tell folks that that people are better off without them.
And I think their participation and what they offered audiences
in listening to this and engaging with this and revisiting this,
is such a clear statement that that's not the case.
No one's you know, you're you're they're not better off
without you.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
They all said, they said, I wish if I could
have if I would.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Have known, if he would have shared with me where
he was at, and I you know, could have said no, no,
like stay with us, this is going to pass and yeah.
And then interestingly, like when I heard him saying how
he knew that he was going to hurt a lot
of people and that he wanted to apologize to them,
but he didn't really get specific, right. He didn't say
(13:52):
my mom, he didn't say my wife. I feel like
he'd already just distanced himself in a way from it,
right from really like thinking about his mom, thinking about
his wife. He was it seemed to me by the
end he was going to do what he was going
to do. There was no you know, there was no
turning around really, so speaking of his wife. So I
(14:12):
know obviously Hannah didn't want to participate. You know, she's
seen the movie.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I don't you know.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
We reached out to her and actually her father a
number of times and we just we never heard back,
and I think our heart goes out to her. I
can't imagine how painful this was. I know the media
that sort of sprung up in the immedia aftermath, I
think a lot of that was very unfair and judgmental
(14:39):
and untrue. But we ultimately, like we respect her right
to privacy, we respect her right not to comment, sure,
and I hope the audiences do that too. But I
want to say we never found anything that suggests anything
other than these were two people that loved each other
very much.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, that was the only part that I was wondering
about at that point, at the towards the end, you know,
and her family seems that they were not pleased with
his ability to provide for her. I'm sure that, you know,
paid its toll on him.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
I do want to be clear about that. I don't
think it's about individuals. I don't think it's about her family.
I think it's about the society that we live in.
And you know, I come from a culture where many people,
especially those who have a more traditional view of the world,
that is what they expect, right. The guy's got to
come in and you know, be a provider, be a man,
(15:31):
you know, stuff it. And I don't think that's like
an individual behaving in a bad way.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
I think that's a cultural reality for a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
And it doesn't match what happened to the American economy,
to the landscape of work, to the era we're living in.
And so you know, I think pat Bibo's aunt says
it really well in the film. She's like, you know, kids,
Bibo's age, who's my age. He's a millennial, came up
with the idea of the American dream and it sort
of fell apart, and they can end up feeling like
(16:00):
it's their fault when they can't attain it, but it's
it's something much bigger. So I don't think this is
about Hannah or Hannah's family. I think this is a
really common struggle that's cultural great and we need to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Not in any way to villainize Hannah's family, because I
have grandparents that told me that I had to find
a man to support me. I mean, this is not
that's there's something unique about the fact that they are
a traditional family. And I don't mean to even imply
that there's blame to be placed. I just am thinking
from his point of view and his his the way
(16:48):
he sort of received, you know, certain information. I wonder
if that's how they felt, not to not any fault
of their own, but like that's pressure, thinking that your
wife's parents think that you're not enough. And it happened
my mother and father were divorced when I was three,
but that he always talks about that, how my grandparents
made him feel like he was never enough, never good
(17:09):
enough earner, never was going to be able to take
care of her.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
You know, those messages are hard.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
He loved her like crazy and to give her the
best life he could. And you get a lot of
information about what that is, and I'm not sure that's
always like from culture and I'm not sure that's always accurate.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, And he worked obviously as hard as humanly possible, right,
I mean that was that was really quite shocking that
he was working, and then I just didn't see it
even then going back to school and like his friends said,
a full time job, full time job, still didn't get
the promotion. And how frustrating, right too, he was he
(17:50):
had his work ethic was unbelievable and working also the
frustration as a viewer of knowing that he wasn't getting
paid minimum wage and you know that he it seems
at the end like that nobody was really even held
liable for that, right, so he was he couldn't how
(18:11):
was he going to make ends me? He was making
twelve something an hour, right, and that he just really
wanted to get the promotion.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
He was I'm very expensive in a very expensive city,
and it's a it's a tragedy. I think he was
a guy that was really you know, as I learned
more about him and sort of his life from the
from the time he was born, right, this is a
guy that always stood up and did the next right thing.
Like even circumstances where hard, he's like, Okay, we're going
to bust through it, Like we're going to do the
next right thing. We're gonna get the scholarship, we're gonna
(18:38):
be the homecoming king, we're going to be you know,
we're gonna get the job.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
We're going to run the business.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
And he brought everything to the table, and the environment
just wasn't there to support that. And I think it
really puts a chink in the armor of like bootstrap theory,
because like Bibo, when you when you really look at
his life, like we should live in a country where
guys like that can win, and this story shows that
we don't anymore, and that's a problem we all have
to get together to fix.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
No, I Yeah, there's so many interesting messages in the film,
and I think that that's so interesting, so important. You're right,
like there was no he couldn't fix it, and he
tried everything, right, he really did try everything. And the
whole thing of him coming out of high school being
such a superstar, you know, like the homecoming king and
(19:24):
the sock and you know, the track and the wrestling
and the football and adorable and she was adorable and
it all looked so right.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
And they still couldn't make it work.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, So tell me a little bit about how about
the piece of it that talks about his brother's mental health.
In their they sort of like, you know, express it
they felt probably the way he was feeling, although I
don't think any of them talked to each other about it,
but how stigmatized men's mental health can be. And I
thought it was really interesting also the way you portrayed
(19:59):
these guys like the welder, right, and then the guy
that the other brother that was shooting, and the sort
of really physical, physically intense almost it feels it felt
like physically challenging things that they were doing for a living,
all of them. Right, specifically, I was thinking, I don't
know if that's where you're going with the welding, but
(20:19):
that you know, being a man piece of this and
they're having these struggles and not feeling like it was okay,
you know, and not only where to go with those I.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Will say, Phil, who you see welding in the film,
has been He's been promoted, he has.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
A great job.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Good. I'm so glad he's you know, his things are
growing great for him. And I'm so glad, you know,
Danny's Danny the other brothers is doing amazing things, building
all sorts of giant things in the middle of the
snow in Alaska.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
But yes, I think that's part of the reality.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Look, my dad was a cable splicer for the phone
company and we.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Were really lucky. I was raising a union family.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I was raised with an awareness of, you know, my
identity as a working class person and that being a
good thing. You know, it was a good It was
the best way to be raised in that situation. But
the reality is, when you work that kind of job,
you're donating your body in exchange for money. And we
all are, right, we're all we're all giving our time
in exchange for money. But there's this real physical way
(21:20):
that working class people are doing that.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
It's hard on your.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Body, that is what you were showing. Yeah, yeah, with
the welding.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Is that that was the message, right, Like as you
see Biebo lifting luggage all day, welding all day, right,
that's that kind of toil.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
And his when you think about what Bibo is doing,
he's what's going on with his knees, with his back
as he enters his thirties. You know, it's like it's
people forget that. People don't when they're on the plane.
They don't look out the window and think that. And
life now is physical and intense and hard, and then
you're supposed to deal with whatever is going on inside
when you're exhausted, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I think that's a unique challenge.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
I also think growing up working class is a challenge
that is not specific to men, but is pronounced in men.
Where if you're growing up working class from the ragged
edge of the middle class, right, you got a lot
of just like problems you're dealing with. You're trying to
pay the mortgage, you're trying to figure out the budget
for the groceries, you're trying whatever, and you don't other
(22:15):
there's problems with the medical system, but just a million
things you're dealing with that aren't You can't just throw
money at to solve, and you're trying to take care
of your family and you're trying to work together to
make ends meet, and you just don't want to bother anyone, right,
And there's all this tocal messaging of like, you know what,
we got enough problems. Don't talk about your feelings, man,
and it can lead to some really disastrous places. And
(22:35):
I hope people start to think about, you know that
that needs to change too.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
There's this doctor maybe you know I'm his name as
Scott Galloway, Yeah, and just as an aside, but he
talks a lot about this and a lot about these
challenges for men, specifically right now, how impossible a situation
that they're in trying to buy a house, and then
(23:03):
that the mental toll, right, and it I always I
love him. I think he's fascinating, but it just all
of this ties into that it's just a bitch, the
whole thing. And so tell me about this. I have
to ask about the bird. And there were there wasn't
just one bird that just happened, but I felt like
there were birds everywhere in the film, right there.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Was So Phil's the bird that's God set bick And
I actually remember that day I can't remember exactly what
was going on, but something had fallen through. I think
we were supposed to go to a job site and
we couldn't go to his job site, and we were
sort of standing in the driveway being.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Like, what are we going to do? We've had all
these plans, where are we going to go? And then
all of a sudden fells like, oh, there's a dead
bird over there.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
I gotta go pick it up, and we were like wait,
and you know, it's a it's a really tragic moment
in the film, but heartbreaking. Yeah, but I think it's
also just it was such kismet or such such my
God moment where I'm like, is this is is there
something from the Great beyond talking to us here?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I have to be honest with you. I didn't know
that you didn't plant it.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
No, No, that happened.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I believe you. I was like, it was just so heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
I mean we definitely told Bill Phil like pause, let
us get the camera over there.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It was beautiful though.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Yeah, yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And he seems so taken by it also, right, Yeah,
like you could see that on his face.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I think also, like, you know, my fit when I work.
I'm really close with my editor Emiliano Batista. We've cut
a bunch of films together. And when we were talking
about this early in the edit, he's like, you know,
we still had some shooting off you and he's like,
if it fly, shoot it. So we would schedule in
these moments where I'm like, okay, like let's sit in
this area and try to see if we can get
some birds.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And we'd never get any.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And with Karen in particular, or Andre's at the airport right,
that was crazy. Yeah, and I'm like, someone is this
I don't know, I don't know what I believe, but
is someone messing.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
With h bibo? I'd like to I would like to
believe that.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Speaking of his mom on the beach and which was
just just heartbreaking, did you were you road tripping with her?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
We went, we went with her up Tomorrow Bay.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
She takes a road trip in that car every year,
and you know it's sort of it's usually open ended,
but because we were filming, we're like, okay, Karen, where
do you want to go?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
What do you want to do?
Speaker 4 (25:21):
And she actually came forward and said I want to
put you know, she she they put Bibo's there's still
they're still in the process of distributing Beebo's ashes, and
so you know, they've gone.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
All places all over the world.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
His sister's gone on trips and brought them, you know, abroad,
and and she just said to us, hey, well what
would you think if we brought Bibo? And I want
to do that for the film, And so that sort
of shaped the trip.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, it was a really powerful moment. What about his
wonderful co worker, who Wow, what a doll of a man.
And also just what what actually hit me the most
in terms of his story that he felt so guilty
for not pushing Bibo to join him in, you know,
(26:10):
his new job, that he felt you know, guilt about that,
and which is so sad. And I don't know, it
sounds like they were really close, but he seemed to
have just such perfect insight into Bibo's character and also
what was going on around them both and how just
dirty the whole machine was.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
Yeah, Andrea's I hope he ends up working for a
labor union or something at some point, I or running
for president.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
He's amazing, He's amazing.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
I spoke to a lot of guys that Bibo worked with,
and unfortunately most of them weren't able to come forward
because they hadn't moved on from that job or they
felt concerned about what would happen to their employment. And
I think Andreas did a really beautiful job telling that
story on behalf of all of them. But there are men,
many guys that feel that way, And I think that
(27:02):
guilt that people feel. I think, you know, I've lost
people important to me to suicide, and it's you're you're.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Always left with that. What was the last text ascent?
Why didn't I go get that coffee? Why didn't I
do that? It's a it's a just a sad part
of what suicide does. I think if Bibo.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Knew, I think if he really knew the impact this
would I'm on his mom, on his family, on co
workers like Andreas, on FA people themselves. I don't think
he would have done it. But I think depression monster
and it lies to you, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I I one hundred percent agree. I watched his uh
dear friend from high school that became the doctor. I'm
sorry I don't have I don't have all the names
Chris talking about. Also, like how Bibo if it wasn't
for Bibo flying him, using all of his points and
flying him out to see all of the schools, he
would have never been, you know, maybe never have been
a doctor. And so he seemed like he was also
(27:55):
carrying his own guilt, right, Like, there's got to be
a myriad of emotions. But the Gil piece is hard
to watch because you're looking at these people that are
such wonderful people obviously, you know, and it's so makes
you just feel so awful that they have to carry
this this around. So I'm sure it comes sort of
with the territory of suicide unfortunately. But yeah, I thought
(28:18):
to myself, he is such a great family and he
knows that he does. And so like when you say
he didn't, maybe he didn't know or didn't think through
what it would do to them. He just couldn't bear
life one more second. And I don't know that he
allowed himself to get in touch with, you know, how
his mom was going to feel, how his siblings were
going to feel, how his friends were going to feel,
his wife was going to feel. Because on the plane,
(28:40):
that was what was so chilling, is that I feel
like he was lighthearted and by the way I'm sorry,
I'm excited, so I tend to like just go all
over the place.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Forgive me, I love it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
So, but why didn't they have somebody a psychiatrist, somebody
they put ground control.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
God blessed the guy Andrew.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
So why don't they have someone that specialized in mental
health there to talk him down?
Speaker 4 (29:05):
I really hope that question gets asked repeatedly and loudly
as this film was released. You know, I think I
think there, I hope the film raises questions about, Yeah,
all the people we see working in this film, Hey.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Well, how do we make these things better? How can
we make these things easier?
Speaker 4 (29:24):
What are these people's experiences, whether that's the guys that
are loading your luggage or the guys that are directing
the planes. I think that's a really important question and
we should ask it.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That was a big ask of him.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I felt for him, and I felt I felt for
the manager her name, and talking about how afterwards she's
like go home.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Or no, don't go home, come staying with you.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
It was so traumatic for all of them obviously, But yeah,
I mean, especially in that line of work, you would
think that anything could happen. You're up in the sky.
Don't you need mental health professionals? On hand, I don't know. Yeah,
I thought that was that was weird and sad, and
I'm sure it took its toll on him.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Those people go through a lot.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, there are so many interesting things about this, and
I think when you know this already, but one of
the most interesting parts of this for me was when
(30:28):
he said he didn't get the promotion because he was
a white guy. And but the way that that translated, right,
and his sibly that's saying no, no, no, and his coworkers,
let's not turn this in to he was a racist.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
That's not who he was at all.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
And he that was a message that he was sent
as to why he didn't get the job. That didn't
come from his thought patterns or you know, his you know,
his belief system comes from somebody else's who said that
to him. But the way it probably and I guess
that's why, was that snippet part of how this got
(31:05):
politicized for sure, because I don't remember hearing that.
Speaker 4 (31:08):
I remember the first time I heard it, and I
heard it after I'd heard a bunch of the other audio.
My heart kind of sank because, like, let us be frank.
It did not sound great without context, right, but when.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
It was approached with such assumptive, sort of.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
In a just assumptive way, that people didn't say, gee,
why is this kind of it doesn't sound like the
rest of the stuff he's saying. He sounds like a
nice guy, sounds concerned about pay, sounds concerned about all
his coworkers, and then there's this thing that sounds really bad.
What does it mean? And they didn't go find that
story that this was. You know, he told people something
that was said to him. And further, Andreas, his coworker,
(31:47):
provides a lot of context about well, why why it
might be advantageous for people to foster that belief? Why
it might be Yeah, of course, right, it's just stoke
white even in order to achieve their ins And of
course it's all that stuff is opinion, you know, people's experience.
But I think it's really important to listen to Andreas's
(32:08):
words about this because I think there's an important message there.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yes, it's sort of like you are white trash message
that he he got, you know, not even subliminally, I
don't know, but there are so many interesting talking points
messages in this film. I just what do you what
would be your wish in terms of what viewers take away.
I know there's a lot that you want them to
take away, But is there, you know, anything for you
(32:35):
that you really profoundly want people to hear.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Yeah. I think for me it's two main things.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
The there's there's something about how working people, how how
I think we all really need to cooperate and get
together and look at what we share in common. Right,
this is a movie where you look at somebody like
Danny Bibo's brother with the who's at the shooting range
and you know, and Andreas, and you'd say, these people
(33:03):
don't have anything in common ones this end of the
political spectrum.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Ones, this end of the political spectrum, they are not
for me.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
The one which one was wearing the Maga hat. That's Danny, Yes.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
But actually, if you really listen to them, they're saying
a lot of the same things. And it's been amazing
to see them speak in public about this. And you know,
it's it's silly, but the way it was said to
me when I was growing up, anybody who knows what
a bread sandwich tastes like, they're your friend.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
It doesn't matter who they are.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Wow, I love that. I'm absolutely going to use that.
Believe Oh, I may get right now, I've got to
copyright it. Go on.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
So I feel like we have to think about that
to solve these problems about the housing crisis, and also
about mental health and about you know, a whole bunch
of factors just going to the grocery store, going to
the gas seat, like where we should be on each
other's team. And we got to find a way to
do that. While we disagree about other things, there are
a lot of things we have in common, and we
got to be in the same boat. And we got
to be skeptical of people who want us to feel
(34:00):
like we're enemies, because those are usually people who don't
have those problems.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
So I hope people feel that.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
But most importantly, I hope people watch this film and think,
you know what, I got to call my buddy and
ask if he's okay, or when their buddy calls them
and says, hey, hey man, how you doing that they
feel at liberty to answer that question more honestly or
even say, you know what, it's not weak in me
if I need to go get some help. That I
think would be the grand slam. I think that's the
legacy his family really wanted to leave and why they
(34:28):
came and did this painful, difficult thing, because that's that's
and I think that's what people would have wanted.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
You know, me too, me too, A little bit in
all of you. I may have a little bit of
a crush on you. I think you ought to be
such a good work. No, because you know what it is.
I watch a lot of Scott Galloway and that message
I don't don't I don't hear it in many places, right,
but because I'm a fan of his and he's my algorithm,
it comes up a lot. And just how hopeless, you know,
(34:56):
our youth is today because there's no they don't a chance, right,
Like just getting just buying a house today is absolutely
impossible for what ninety percent of young people. So anyway,
and I love talking about how we're just drawn to
a certain side and we're being manipulated. I could go
(35:16):
on and on, but I'm sure you have things to do.
But I love the film really, Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
I mean, I just it's such a pleasure when I
get to set with people like you who just get it.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
You know, I have to say thank you, thank you
so much,
Hi, guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller DOCU Edition. I'm
your host, Jen Fessler. So today we are talking about
the new Hulu documentary sky King. You guys, this was
unlike a lot of the true crime documentaries that I've
watched and that we've talked about here on the pod.
August tenth day after my birthday, twenty eighteen, and I
(00:35):
remember this. A Horizon airplane was stolen from Seattle Tacoma
International Airport by twenty eight year old Richard Russell. Everybody
called him Bibo and a Horizon Air ground service agent,
so he had no piloting experience.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
He was the guy that you.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
See in the orange vest taking the luggage off the plane,
putting the luggage back on the plane. So he was
an incredible guy and he performed this unauthorized takeoff and
SeaTac air traffic control made radio contact with him.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
He was the only guy on the plane.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
He stole the plane, and he started to talk to
air traffic control. He described himself as a broken guy.
He said, I got a few screws loose, I guess,
which was heartbreaking because when you watch this you see
that this guy was the kindest, warmest most hard working,
devoted guy.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I fell in love with him watching it, and he
had everything going for him, but he ended up stealing
this plane. He does what's called a barrel roll in it,
which is basically an impossible thing to do, and these
were his last moments of life, and he, you know,
purposefully crashes the aircraft into the Katron Island. And you know,
he wanted to die by suicide and this was the
(01:49):
way that he wanted to go and there were no
other collateral human injuries.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
He was a soul fatality.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
But the film is so incredible and such a fabulous
commentary on not just you know, suicide, but men's roles
in today's culture and how difficult it can be to
provide for your family, you know, mental health, mental illness.
And we're about to bring in the most incredible director.
Her name is Patricia E. Gillespie. Patricia High.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Welcome. We are so happy to have you, all right,
you guys, so welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Patricia, Hi, thank you so much for having me. I
really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Patricia, thank you so much for coming. I have to
tell you, and I was telling my producers before we
had you on this story and we do a lot
of true crime. That's sort of the nature right of
the podcast is true crime doc And I know that
this was a crime, and it could have been an
even worse crime, but there the heart of this felt
like so utterly sad and so it was, I mean,
(02:50):
so poignant. And you know, usually when I'm done watching
one of the crime docs, I'm completely freaked out and
can't sleep and the hairs. This was more like just sadness,
but not in a way. It was such a fascinating
documentary and I feel like something that so many people
can There's so much to take from it, so not
just sadness, also some admiration I think for him and
(03:11):
some and lots of empathy, but and for his family.
But anyway, I'm sorry. I just I thought it was
so that it was so moving. It was really just
a fabulous just congratulations, fabulous work, very welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I'm glad you enjoyed.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It, I really did. I mean, you always feel weird
saying you enjoyed it, right.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Of course, yeah, yeah, but I did. I have to say.
So let's I'm just gonna ask this question right off
the bats. We can get it over with, why Bibo
where does that come from?
Speaker 4 (03:42):
So Bibo, I'm probably gonna call him Bibo through this
whole thing, but I'm realizing a lot of the press
is Richard, but I've just debowed him for years.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, so Bibo was.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Actually a name that he got when he was a baby.
He was named after his father, whose name was also Richard.
And I asked Karen, I said, where where does that
word come from? And she says, look at the videos
to him as a kid, he just looks.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Like a little bebo.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
And I remember going through all those images and seeing
his cute little.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Nose and it was the cutest. I get it.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
It's sort of an automotia for how adorable he was.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And he was so adorable, Yeah, he really was. Like
that actually was striking to me too. I mean most
kids that h are adorable, but he was so so
freaking cute and.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Sweet, yeah, and sensitive and all of it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So, you know, I obviously I've read up on you,
and I know that you do like to tell stories
that involve an underdog and maybe somebody who's it's marginalized
the right word. I don't know, but I so is
that what drew you to this story? Did you feel
like he was an underdog. What was it that wanted
to make you tell the story?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
You know, this story in particular was really personal to me.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I grew up working class, and I remember hearing this
audio along with everybody else's little snippets that were sort
of floating around out of context on social media when
this happened, and like so many other people.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
It just grabbed me, grabbed me right part and the gut.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
And he sounded like so many of the people I
grew up with, and he was trying to articulate something
I think that I think a lot of men, but
non exclusively men, people feel about the realities of working
life in the US, about the difficulty to talk about
how you're feeling to get the help you need, and
(05:30):
I wanted to know more. I also heard his voice,
and he sounded so familiar, but also was doing something
so out there, so intense, so unfamiliar, right stealing a plane,
And I wanted to square this really kind voice that
I was hearing with this very dramatic act and sort
of try to cut through some of the politicization and
(05:51):
sensationalism that had come to plague the story and figure
out who really was this guy underneath it all and
what led him to that moment?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
That was the part that was one of the many
parts that was so fascinating to me was that the
you know, reading about how it had been politicized, and
not just reading about it. I mean, you know, his
brother talked about it, his friend talked about it, how
frustrating that was for them, and that you know, people
were using it, using his story to their own advantage
and maybe even monetizing on it, which just is so
(06:24):
heartbreaking and just awful. And I that was like a
whole different part of the story that you know, was
very sort of upsetting, and the aftermath of it and
what his family and his friends had to deal with.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
Yeah, I think we live in a really intense media
environment and a lot of times when something when a
story that that sort of grabs attention comes out, it's
there's a temptation to sort of take your stand right
away or like use it to enforce a point. And
one of the things that I think became really clear
to me, and I hope it's clear to audiences making
this story, is that when when you do that, when
(07:01):
you do your hot take and you pump that out
sometimes you miss the human story at the center, and
that human story can have a deeper, more important story,
which in this case was I think a pretty clear
story about class and about what it means to try
to succeed in you know, the changing American economic landscape
that sort of got glossed over in favor of this
(07:22):
discussion of Izia terrorist Asney a terrorist? Did this statement
or that statement mean he was a white nationalist? Or
was this something else? And I'm not seeing those aren't
important conversations to have and to look into. But when
that becomes the only conversation and we calcify into sort
of these black and white positions one and the other end,
we miss a lot of nuance.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Which is which is feels even more relevant now than
it was in twenty.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Eighteen, is that when it happened? Yeah, it feels even
more relevant today. Right.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
This film took a long time to make, but you know,
just it's I feel, in this weird way that we're
right on time.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, you know, I one hundred percent agree with you
because that's exactly what happening. What's happening now, right, It's
just about sides. It's not about humanity. We've lost, you know,
all touch with the human story, and it's just about
what's going to work for this narrative as opposed to
that narrative.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I think another thing that like really.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Stood out to me was how there are a lot
of in the people that are in this film, there
are a lot of different opinions about you know, just
different walks of life. You have a doctor, you have
you know, an age faca, you have all these different
sorts of people. You have old people, young people, men, women,
different political opinions.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
But if you stop and listen.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
And you approach the story from a place of curiosity
rather than judgment, you realize all these people who the
media lines people would tell you couldn't agree on anything,
I actually agree very much about just the realities of life, success, work,
mental health in the US. And those are conversations I
think we need to consciously create a space to have
at a time when we things can feel so polarized.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Absolutely, I love everything that you just said, and I
think about it.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
I think about that often.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Hard to even watch the news anymore, because that's all
I see is, you know, the picking apart of very
human issues and how polarizing everything is anyway, Okay, so
tell me something. I know that it was the first
time that the family and that his friends heard the audio.
That must have been so hard, not just for them,
(09:25):
but for you. I mean that it was chilling to me,
like the fact that they when they put on the headphones,
you know, and you heard what they were hearing, especially
at the end when he said he wanted to kill
himself and you just and his poor aunt and sister.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's just awful.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
But that was that hard for you to watch them
go through that? And did it happen over the course
of a day?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
He So we everybody you see in the film that's
full in the interview set up in the listening said
that was a full day. We left a lot of
time for them because it's the kind of thing you
might have to start or stop, or yeah, might spark
a very deep conversation, or it might you might need
to just step off and step away, right, So everybody
had a day where we discussed and listened. Yeah, I
(10:09):
think it's look. I knew that this had to be
a part of this film because at the end of
the day, you're dealing with a suicide, and a suicide
that had been sort of unfortunately glamorized, and I needed
to make sure that at every moment in this film
it was clear to audiences that this isn't glamorous, that
(10:32):
even though there's this idea that suicide ends someone's pain,
the reality is that pain gets passed on to the
people that love that person.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
And I knew we needed this to be sort of
front and center.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Most of the family had heard little pieces of audio,
because like I said, there were snippets.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Already right, people had.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Made super cuts, but there were things that no one
had ever heard that. I'm very lucky my husband's an
archive producer, and so we were able to work on
this together, sort of piecing it together out of these
many little its of audio we got from the fagainst
the black Box transcript. You know, there was there were
moments that they didn't expect to hear, and I think
(11:11):
those always sort of shocked me because you don't know
what someone has or hasn't heard, and I think those
became some of the most powerful moments in the film.
One thing that surprised me was a lot of times
for me I found in the edit, it's not even
what they say that's so powerful, it's how they react
or the look on their face, like it just speaks
in such an immediate human way.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Not that what they say isn't brilliant and important.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
No, it's watching their face. It's watching the pain on
their face. That really, that's what you know, what got me.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's yes.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
And afterwards, of course there are tears and there's discussion,
but that look on their face hearing this person that
they love talk about you know that he was ending.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
It was just so.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Sad and awful and his mom and I just was
so drawn to his mom. She seems just like such
a wonderful woman and strong, right, and has she listened
to the audio at all?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
She actually so did.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
She chose not to listen to it at the time
we were making the film, which was a decision I
totally respected. I think, to listen to the last seventy
minutes your son's life like that is unbearable, unbearable.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
She came to we.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Premiered the film it south by Southwest of Film Festival,
and she came and she'd said, I don't know that
I'm going to sit for the movie.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
So I was like, all right, we'll go to this premiere.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
You know, and Karen and I will take a great
walk around Austin while everybody else watches it, and we'll
come in at the end and she'll be able to
see people coming out and them responding, and she's surprised
that she wanted She sat for it, and she watched
the film, and she sat between me and al my fella,
and you know, obviously it's tragic to watch her see this,
(12:48):
but it was also, in a in a bittersweet way,
very beautiful because I think what she did here was really,
really brave. I think that everyone in this film who
loved him coming forward to tell this story, they didn't
do that to get something off their chest. They were
engaging with something incredibly painful because they wanted to help
other people. And there's this this lie that depression can
(13:11):
tell folks that that people are better off without them.
And I think their participation and what they offered audiences
in listening to this and engaging with this and revisiting this,
is such a clear statement that that's not the case.
No one's you know, you're you're they're not better off
without you.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
They all said, they said, I wish if I could
have if I would.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Have known, if he would have shared with me where
he was at, and I you know, could have said no, no,
like stay with us, this is going to pass and yeah.
And then interestingly, like when I heard him saying how
he knew that he was going to hurt a lot
of people and that he wanted to apologize to them,
but he didn't really get specific, right. He didn't say
(13:52):
my mom, he didn't say my wife. I feel like
he'd already just distanced himself in a way from it,
right from really like thinking about his mom, thinking about
his wife. He was it seemed to me by the
end he was going to do what he was going
to do. There was no you know, there was no
turning around really, so speaking of his wife. So I
(14:12):
know obviously Hannah didn't want to participate. You know, she's
seen the movie.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I don't you know.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
We reached out to her and actually her father a
number of times and we just we never heard back,
and I think our heart goes out to her. I
can't imagine how painful this was. I know the media
that sort of sprung up in the immedia aftermath, I
think a lot of that was very unfair and judgmental
(14:39):
and untrue. But we ultimately, like we respect her right
to privacy, we respect her right not to comment, sure,
and I hope the audiences do that too. But I
want to say we never found anything that suggests anything
other than these were two people that loved each other
very much.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, that was the only part that I was wondering
about at that point, at the towards the end, you know,
and her family seems that they were not pleased with
his ability to provide for her. I'm sure that, you know,
paid its toll on him.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
I do want to be clear about that. I don't
think it's about individuals. I don't think it's about her family.
I think it's about the society that we live in.
And you know, I come from a culture where many people,
especially those who have a more traditional view of the world,
that is what they expect, right. The guy's got to
come in and you know, be a provider, be a man,
(15:31):
you know, stuff it. And I don't think that's like
an individual behaving in a bad way.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
I think that's a cultural reality for a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
And it doesn't match what happened to the American economy,
to the landscape of work, to the era we're living in.
And so you know, I think pat Bibo's aunt says
it really well in the film. She's like, you know, kids,
Bibo's age, who's my age. He's a millennial, came up
with the idea of the American dream and it sort
of fell apart, and they can end up feeling like
(16:00):
it's their fault when they can't attain it, but it's
it's something much bigger. So I don't think this is
about Hannah or Hannah's family. I think this is a
really common struggle that's cultural great and we need to
talk about.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Not in any way to villainize Hannah's family, because I
have grandparents that told me that I had to find
a man to support me. I mean, this is not
that's there's something unique about the fact that they are
a traditional family. And I don't mean to even imply
that there's blame to be placed. I just am thinking
from his point of view and his his the way
(16:48):
he sort of received, you know, certain information. I wonder
if that's how they felt, not to not any fault
of their own, but like that's pressure, thinking that your
wife's parents think that you're not enough. And it happened
my mother and father were divorced when I was three,
but that he always talks about that, how my grandparents
made him feel like he was never enough, never good
(17:09):
enough earner, never was going to be able to take
care of her.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
You know, those messages are hard.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
He loved her like crazy and to give her the
best life he could. And you get a lot of
information about what that is, and I'm not sure that's
always like from culture and I'm not sure that's always accurate.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, And he worked obviously as hard as humanly possible, right,
I mean that was that was really quite shocking that
he was working, and then I just didn't see it
even then going back to school and like his friends said,
a full time job, full time job, still didn't get
the promotion. And how frustrating, right too, he was he
(17:50):
had his work ethic was unbelievable and working also the
frustration as a viewer of knowing that he wasn't getting
paid minimum wage and you know that he it seems
at the end like that nobody was really even held
liable for that, right, so he was he couldn't how
(18:11):
was he going to make ends me? He was making
twelve something an hour, right, and that he just really
wanted to get the promotion.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
He was I'm very expensive in a very expensive city,
and it's a it's a tragedy. I think he was
a guy that was really you know, as I learned
more about him and sort of his life from the
from the time he was born, right, this is a
guy that always stood up and did the next right thing.
Like even circumstances where hard, he's like, Okay, we're going
to bust through it, Like we're going to do the
next right thing. We're gonna get the scholarship, we're gonna
(18:38):
be the homecoming king, we're going to be you know,
we're gonna get the job.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
We're going to run the business.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
And he brought everything to the table, and the environment
just wasn't there to support that. And I think it
really puts a chink in the armor of like bootstrap theory,
because like Bibo, when you when you really look at
his life, like we should live in a country where
guys like that can win, and this story shows that
we don't anymore, and that's a problem we all have
to get together to fix.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
No, I Yeah, there's so many interesting messages in the film,
and I think that that's so interesting, so important. You're right,
like there was no he couldn't fix it, and he
tried everything, right, he really did try everything. And the
whole thing of him coming out of high school being
such a superstar, you know, like the homecoming king and
(19:24):
the sock and you know, the track and the wrestling
and the football and adorable and she was adorable and
it all looked so right.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
And they still couldn't make it work.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, So tell me a little bit about how about
the piece of it that talks about his brother's mental health.
In their they sort of like, you know, express it
they felt probably the way he was feeling, although I
don't think any of them talked to each other about it,
but how stigmatized men's mental health can be. And I
thought it was really interesting also the way you portrayed
(19:59):
these guys like the welder, right, and then the guy
that the other brother that was shooting, and the sort
of really physical, physically intense almost it feels it felt
like physically challenging things that they were doing for a living,
all of them. Right, specifically, I was thinking, I don't
know if that's where you're going with the welding, but
(20:19):
that you know, being a man piece of this and
they're having these struggles and not feeling like it was okay,
you know, and not only where to go with those I.
Speaker 4 (20:31):
Will say, Phil, who you see welding in the film,
has been He's been promoted, he has.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
A great job.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Good. I'm so glad he's you know, his things are
growing great for him. And I'm so glad, you know,
Danny's Danny the other brothers is doing amazing things, building
all sorts of giant things in the middle of the
snow in Alaska.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
But yes, I think that's part of the reality.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Look, my dad was a cable splicer for the phone
company and we.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Were really lucky. I was raising a union family.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I was raised with an awareness of, you know, my
identity as a working class person and that being a
good thing. You know, it was a good It was
the best way to be raised in that situation. But
the reality is, when you work that kind of job,
you're donating your body in exchange for money. And we
all are, right, we're all we're all giving our time
in exchange for money. But there's this real physical way
(21:20):
that working class people are doing that.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
It's hard on your.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Body, that is what you were showing. Yeah, yeah, with
the welding.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Is that that was the message, right, Like as you
see Biebo lifting luggage all day, welding all day, right,
that's that kind of toil.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
And his when you think about what Bibo is doing,
he's what's going on with his knees, with his back
as he enters his thirties. You know, it's like it's
people forget that. People don't when they're on the plane.
They don't look out the window and think that. And
life now is physical and intense and hard, and then
you're supposed to deal with whatever is going on inside
when you're exhausted, you know.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I think that's a unique challenge.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
I also think growing up working class is a challenge
that is not specific to men, but is pronounced in men.
Where if you're growing up working class from the ragged
edge of the middle class, right, you got a lot
of just like problems you're dealing with. You're trying to
pay the mortgage, you're trying to figure out the budget
for the groceries, you're trying whatever, and you don't other
(22:15):
there's problems with the medical system, but just a million
things you're dealing with that aren't You can't just throw
money at to solve, and you're trying to take care
of your family and you're trying to work together to
make ends meet, and you just don't want to bother anyone, right,
And there's all this tocal messaging of like, you know what,
we got enough problems. Don't talk about your feelings, man,
and it can lead to some really disastrous places. And
(22:35):
I hope people start to think about, you know that
that needs to change too.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
There's this doctor maybe you know I'm his name as
Scott Galloway, Yeah, and just as an aside, but he
talks a lot about this and a lot about these
challenges for men, specifically right now, how impossible a situation
that they're in trying to buy a house, and then
(23:03):
that the mental toll, right, and it I always I
love him. I think he's fascinating, but it just all
of this ties into that it's just a bitch, the
whole thing. And so tell me about this. I have
to ask about the bird. And there were there wasn't
just one bird that just happened, but I felt like
there were birds everywhere in the film, right there.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Was So Phil's the bird that's God set bick And
I actually remember that day I can't remember exactly what
was going on, but something had fallen through. I think
we were supposed to go to a job site and
we couldn't go to his job site, and we were
sort of standing in the driveway being.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Like, what are we going to do? We've had all
these plans, where are we going to go? And then
all of a sudden fells like, oh, there's a dead
bird over there.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
I gotta go pick it up, and we were like wait,
and you know, it's a it's a really tragic moment
in the film, but heartbreaking. Yeah, but I think it's
also just it was such kismet or such such my
God moment where I'm like, is this is is there
something from the Great beyond talking to us here?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I have to be honest with you. I didn't know
that you didn't plant it.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
No, No, that happened.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I believe you. I was like, it was just so heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
I mean we definitely told Bill Phil like pause, let
us get the camera over there.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
It was beautiful though.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Yeah, yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And he seems so taken by it also, right, Yeah,
like you could see that on his face.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
I think also, like, you know, my fit when I work.
I'm really close with my editor Emiliano Batista. We've cut
a bunch of films together. And when we were talking
about this early in the edit, he's like, you know,
we still had some shooting off you and he's like,
if it fly, shoot it. So we would schedule in
these moments where I'm like, okay, like let's sit in
this area and try to see if we can get
some birds.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And we'd never get any.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And with Karen in particular, or Andre's at the airport right,
that was crazy. Yeah, and I'm like, someone is this
I don't know, I don't know what I believe, but
is someone messing.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
With h bibo? I'd like to I would like to
believe that.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Speaking of his mom on the beach and which was
just just heartbreaking, did you were you road tripping with her?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
We went, we went with her up Tomorrow Bay.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
She takes a road trip in that car every year,
and you know it's sort of it's usually open ended,
but because we were filming, we're like, okay, Karen, where
do you want to go?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
What do you want to do?
Speaker 4 (25:21):
And she actually came forward and said I want to
put you know, she she they put Bibo's there's still
they're still in the process of distributing Beebo's ashes, and
so you know, they've gone.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
All places all over the world.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
His sister's gone on trips and brought them, you know, abroad,
and and she just said to us, hey, well what
would you think if we brought Bibo? And I want
to do that for the film, And so that sort
of shaped the trip.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, it was a really powerful moment. What about his
wonderful co worker, who Wow, what a doll of a man.
And also just what what actually hit me the most
in terms of his story that he felt so guilty
for not pushing Bibo to join him in, you know,
(26:10):
his new job, that he felt you know, guilt about that,
and which is so sad. And I don't know, it
sounds like they were really close, but he seemed to
have just such perfect insight into Bibo's character and also
what was going on around them both and how just
dirty the whole machine was.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
Yeah, Andrea's I hope he ends up working for a
labor union or something at some point, I or running
for president.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
He's amazing, He's amazing.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
I spoke to a lot of guys that Bibo worked with,
and unfortunately most of them weren't able to come forward
because they hadn't moved on from that job or they
felt concerned about what would happen to their employment. And
I think Andreas did a really beautiful job telling that
story on behalf of all of them. But there are men,
many guys that feel that way, And I think that
(27:02):
guilt that people feel. I think, you know, I've lost
people important to me to suicide, and it's you're you're.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Always left with that. What was the last text ascent?
Why didn't I go get that coffee? Why didn't I
do that? It's a it's a just a sad part
of what suicide does. I think if Bibo.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Knew, I think if he really knew the impact this
would I'm on his mom, on his family, on co
workers like Andreas, on FA people themselves. I don't think
he would have done it. But I think depression monster
and it lies to you, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I I one hundred percent agree. I watched his uh
dear friend from high school that became the doctor. I'm
sorry I don't have I don't have all the names
Chris talking about. Also, like how Bibo if it wasn't
for Bibo flying him, using all of his points and
flying him out to see all of the schools, he
would have never been, you know, maybe never have been
a doctor. And so he seemed like he was also
(27:55):
carrying his own guilt, right, Like, there's got to be
a myriad of emotions. But the Gil piece is hard
to watch because you're looking at these people that are
such wonderful people obviously, you know, and it's so makes
you just feel so awful that they have to carry
this this around. So I'm sure it comes sort of
with the territory of suicide unfortunately. But yeah, I thought
(28:18):
to myself, he is such a great family and he
knows that he does. And so like when you say
he didn't, maybe he didn't know or didn't think through
what it would do to them. He just couldn't bear
life one more second. And I don't know that he
allowed himself to get in touch with, you know, how
his mom was going to feel, how his siblings were
going to feel, how his friends were going to feel,
his wife was going to feel. Because on the plane,
(28:40):
that was what was so chilling, is that I feel
like he was lighthearted and by the way I'm sorry,
I'm excited, so I tend to like just go all
over the place.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Forgive me, I love it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
So, but why didn't they have somebody a psychiatrist, somebody
they put ground control.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
God blessed the guy Andrew.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
So why don't they have someone that specialized in mental
health there to talk him down?
Speaker 4 (29:05):
I really hope that question gets asked repeatedly and loudly
as this film was released. You know, I think I
think there, I hope the film raises questions about, Yeah,
all the people we see working in this film, Hey.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Well, how do we make these things better? How can
we make these things easier?
Speaker 4 (29:24):
What are these people's experiences, whether that's the guys that
are loading your luggage or the guys that are directing
the planes. I think that's a really important question and
we should ask it.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That was a big ask of him.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I felt for him, and I felt I felt for
the manager her name, and talking about how afterwards she's
like go home.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Or no, don't go home, come staying with you.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
It was so traumatic for all of them obviously, But yeah,
I mean, especially in that line of work, you would
think that anything could happen. You're up in the sky.
Don't you need mental health professionals? On hand, I don't know. Yeah,
I thought that was that was weird and sad, and
I'm sure it took its toll on him.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Those people go through a lot.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, there are so many interesting things about this, and
I think when you know this already, but one of
the most interesting parts of this for me was when
(30:28):
he said he didn't get the promotion because he was
a white guy. And but the way that that translated, right,
and his sibly that's saying no, no, no, and his coworkers,
let's not turn this in to he was a racist.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
That's not who he was at all.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
And he that was a message that he was sent
as to why he didn't get the job. That didn't
come from his thought patterns or you know, his you know,
his belief system comes from somebody else's who said that
to him. But the way it probably and I guess
that's why, was that snippet part of how this got
(31:05):
politicized for sure, because I don't remember hearing that.
Speaker 4 (31:08):
I remember the first time I heard it, and I
heard it after I'd heard a bunch of the other audio.
My heart kind of sank because, like, let us be frank.
It did not sound great without context, right, but when.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
It was approached with such assumptive, sort of.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
In a just assumptive way, that people didn't say, gee,
why is this kind of it doesn't sound like the
rest of the stuff he's saying. He sounds like a
nice guy, sounds concerned about pay, sounds concerned about all
his coworkers, and then there's this thing that sounds really bad.
What does it mean? And they didn't go find that
story that this was. You know, he told people something
that was said to him. And further, Andreas, his coworker,
(31:47):
provides a lot of context about well, why why it
might be advantageous for people to foster that belief? Why
it might be Yeah, of course, right, it's just stoke
white even in order to achieve their ins And of
course it's all that stuff is opinion, you know, people's experience.
But I think it's really important to listen to Andreas's
(32:08):
words about this because I think there's an important message there.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yes, it's sort of like you are white trash message
that he he got, you know, not even subliminally, I
don't know, but there are so many interesting talking points
messages in this film. I just what do you what
would be your wish in terms of what viewers take away.
I know there's a lot that you want them to
take away, But is there, you know, anything for you
(32:35):
that you really profoundly want people to hear.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Yeah. I think for me it's two main things.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
The there's there's something about how working people, how how
I think we all really need to cooperate and get
together and look at what we share in common. Right,
this is a movie where you look at somebody like
Danny Bibo's brother with the who's at the shooting range
and you know, and Andreas, and you'd say, these people
(33:03):
don't have anything in common ones this end of the
political spectrum.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Ones, this end of the political spectrum, they are not
for me.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
The one which one was wearing the Maga hat. That's Danny, Yes.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
But actually, if you really listen to them, they're saying
a lot of the same things. And it's been amazing
to see them speak in public about this. And you know,
it's it's silly, but the way it was said to
me when I was growing up, anybody who knows what
a bread sandwich tastes like, they're your friend.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
It doesn't matter who they are.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Wow, I love that. I'm absolutely going to use that.
Believe Oh, I may get right now, I've got to
copyright it. Go on.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
So I feel like we have to think about that
to solve these problems about the housing crisis, and also
about mental health and about you know, a whole bunch
of factors just going to the grocery store, going to
the gas seat, like where we should be on each
other's team. And we got to find a way to
do that. While we disagree about other things, there are
a lot of things we have in common, and we
got to be in the same boat. And we got
to be skeptical of people who want us to feel
(34:00):
like we're enemies, because those are usually people who don't
have those problems.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
So I hope people feel that.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
But most importantly, I hope people watch this film and think,
you know what, I got to call my buddy and
ask if he's okay, or when their buddy calls them
and says, hey, hey man, how you doing that they
feel at liberty to answer that question more honestly or
even say, you know what, it's not weak in me
if I need to go get some help. That I
think would be the grand slam. I think that's the
legacy his family really wanted to leave and why they
(34:28):
came and did this painful, difficult thing, because that's that's
and I think that's what people would have wanted.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
You know, me too, me too, A little bit in
all of you. I may have a little bit of
a crush on you. I think you ought to be
such a good work. No, because you know what it is.
I watch a lot of Scott Galloway and that message
I don't don't I don't hear it in many places, right,
but because I'm a fan of his and he's my algorithm,
it comes up a lot. And just how hopeless, you know,
(34:56):
our youth is today because there's no they don't a chance, right,
Like just getting just buying a house today is absolutely
impossible for what ninety percent of young people. So anyway,
and I love talking about how we're just drawn to
a certain side and we're being manipulated. I could go
(35:16):
on and on, but I'm sure you have things to do.
But I love the film really, Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (35:21):
I mean, I just it's such a pleasure when I
get to set with people like you who just get it.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
You know, I have to say thank you, thank you
so much,
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