April 12, 2026 • 34 mins
John List meticulously murdered his entire family in 1971 before fleeing the state, creating an entirely new life for himself, and avoiding arrest for nearly 18 years.
How did he manage to get away with his atrocious crimes? What was his motive for killing his wife, three children and his mother? When he later remarried under a different persona, did his new wife ever suspect him to be a killer?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, guys, Welcome to Legally Brunette Presents Till Death Do
Us Part, where we talk about cases in which wives
try to get rid of their husbands or husbands trying
to get rid of their wives. And today we're going
to do an update on the Gerhardt Koenig trial. We
talked about it last week, so if you didn't listen
to the episode, you should go back and listen to it,
because again, I feel like you'd have to live under
(00:24):
a rock to not have at least no a little
bit or have seen his face out there. This is
the case of the doctor. He's an antesthesiologist who tried
to push his wife. Allegedly he did it, tried to
he allegedly tried to push his wife, did the Palipuka
(00:44):
trail in Hawaii.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
He at tempted and he failed.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
He failed miserably. And the trial has been going on,
and we left off last week where we were recorded
an episode. Ariel had taken the stand and then also
the witness, and there were some other people that had testified,
but at the time that we recorded it, Gerhard had
not taken the stand, and we were also contemplating whether
(01:10):
his son was going to take the stand and testify.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, we heard he was.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We heard he was.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It's hard to believe, right.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
And we didn't know, I mean, we didn't know if
he was going to testify against his dad or what.
But now we know, so let's talk about it. Gerhardt
took the stand in his own defense, admitting that he
struck his wife with a rock during their hike, but
he claimed that he was acting in self defense after
she allegedly tried to push him off the cliff and
(01:37):
attacked him first. So obviously, if his his whole defense
to this trial is self defense, he's going to have
to testify on his own behalf because obviously he's the
only person that can testify as to what he claims happened.
So what do you think about him testifying on his
own behalf?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Usually when a defendant testifies, generally speaking, it's likely against
the advice of their attorney, generally speaking. But they are
such a narcissist and they think they can talk their
way out of it, and they think that they're such
such a charming person that they can they can get.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
To the jury, they can convince that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And they're not gonna let her. He's not gonna let
her get the word in. He's gonna tell it like
it is.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
That's what I think.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So when he was testified, he denied trying to kill her,
and he denied having the syringes during the incident. Remember
how when she testified, she claimed that after he tried
to push her to the edge, and then she grabbed
onto a tree branch, and then he grabbed her by
the arms, and then they wrestled a little bit, and
then she fell to the ground. She claimed that he
straddled her and that he reached down and pulled a
(02:50):
syringe out that but the syringe was never found at
the scene of the crime. Obviously, when he ran after
she got hit in the head with the rock and
the two hikers came along and helped her down the trail.
He could have easily picked up those syringes and got
in a.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Wet vegetated area like that. I mean, a little syringe
tosses it somewhere far away, it's going to be tough
to find.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
He said that the confrontation stemmed from their marital tensions
after discovering her. I love how we always called it
an emotional affair. It's very every article I've ever read
about this case always talks about how she had an
affair with a co worker, but it's always an emotional affair.
Koenig also testified, I.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Get emotional tonight, babe.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I mean this, would you like to have an emotional emotional.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Eythings such bull crab.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
It's like, there's no evidence that actually sleeping together, so
we need to say it was just emotion.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
It was an emotional affair.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
No exchanging of bodily fluid.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Koenig also testified about feeling quote severe emotional distress after
hurting his wife and said he contemplated suicide. So this
was him on the stand in his own defense. Probably,
like you said, was such a huge ego, and he's
such a narcissist that I'm sure he truly believes that
he can convince the jury of his genuine feelings, and
(04:14):
that she attacked him first and tried to push him
off the cliff, and he was only hitting her in
the head with a law of a rock because he
was acting in self defense, because he was truly scared
for his life. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Then his son testified Emil, so Emil only referred to
his father. I don't know if you noticed this, if
you saw any of the testimony, Yeah, but he only
refers to his father as the defendant throughout the entire testimony.
Emil said that his father believed Ariel had been unfaithful,
and he told him he wouldn't be returning to Maui.
Gerhard asked Emil to care for his younger siblings. This
(04:51):
is when he's testifying that after the incident, his dad
called him via FaceTime. He also testified that his father
face timed him again the way, why.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Would he think that his son would want to hear.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
That, hear that or protect him or any.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Of the above, Like why would he think that that's
what he needed to do if it was his buddy
and his buddy was going to help him kill her,
and like was in on it, like his partner that way,
or his mistress that was in on it.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I could see that. Why would you think to call
his son?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I don't know. I don't know what kind of relationship
he had with his older son. I believe he's nineteen,
But maybe he felt like they had a good father's
son relationship and his son wasn't gonna wasn't going to
turn on him. I don't know, And maybe he was
in such an emotional state because he didn't know what
to do. Can you imagine how frazzle.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I think of it.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
He really didn't know what he was doing. He just
needed to reach out someone. He was just a mess.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, because imagine how frazzled he is. Because from my perspective,
I'm going to go with this is premeditated. He knew
what he was going to do. He picked that trail.
I believe there's forensic evidence of him doing doing searches
for trails and whole that had, you.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Know, cliffs, you know, where to a syringe.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yes, so I believe that, you know, he had every
intention of pushing her off of the cliff that day
and then claiming that they were just taking a selfie
and she slipped. And I'm sure in his mind he
thought it was very simple. He thought, we're just going
to go out on this trailiffs and we're just gonna
take a selfie as close to the edge as we can,
(06:25):
and I'm just going to push her off, and then
I'm going to be the distraw husband that's crying and says,
oh my gosh, we were taking a selfie and she fell,
And but what happened was. She fought her way and
then he didn't know what to do. Was tougher than
he thought, right, So then I think he freaked out,
picked up a rock, starts beating her on the head,
and then some hikers come along and for that, No,
(06:45):
and he didn't plan for any of that, So he
doesn't know what to do. This guy's a can you
imagine what state of mind he's in.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
He just runs hide the syringe. Yeah, he succeeded in
that exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And I do believe that there was a syringe because a.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Blue plunger she described it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I mean, there's no way that she went through all
of that and then created like a fake narrative about
a syringe in the middle of it. Like that makes
no sense at all. It's enough just to say he
tried to push her off the edge and then he
beat her with the rock.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, fine, let's we'll disregard the syringe. You can have
that one. Mister Koenig or what's his name, Tonig?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, well, his name's Gerhart last Kronig.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Killer. We'll call him killer.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And when I saw that defend the son against the defendant,
he seemed like he didn't give a crap about his dad.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
He wasn't emotional.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
He was just like, yeah, that dude over there, Yeah
he's a killer.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, put him in jail.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah he did this to me, like he called me
like he did not, like he was over he was
checked out.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, you're saying because we've seen other people, like even
in the Corey Richm's case we were talking about when
the boyfriend testified against her.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I didn't see that one.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I did, but he was an emotional wreck. You could
tell he did not want to do that. So it
was very he had a hard time.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Like the son, Yeah, the woman that he was in
love with.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Was killer and then he had to testify, whereas.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
This guy was not like it sucks that my dad's
a killer. No, he's like, I want nothing to do
with that dude.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Right, So he does FaceTime again a second time, roughly
an hour later, and said he was going to jump
off the cliff before police could catch him. That's an
account that contradicts Gerhardt's self defense claim because obviously, well.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Every bit of evidence contradicts his self defense claim.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, they had a forensic some type of forensic person
testify that apparently Ariel had claimed or her team or
the prosecution or whatever had claimed that she had been
hit in the head like ten times, and then they
had a forensic expert testify on behalf of the defense,
claiming that she was really only hit two to three times.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah, but you know what, in all that struggling, I
imagine it's possible forensically that they can show that that
lava rock, which we discussed last week as being sharp,
hit and made contact and made what do you call it,
like abrasion lacerations, lacerations two to three times or whatever
it was. But in all that struggling, maybe there was
(09:10):
a lot of wailing of the arms and she was
kind of getting smacked around a little bit, but not
necessarily like sharp contact was made to her head, like
it might have been the back of his hand or something.
So excuse her for not having counted the amount of
times the lava rock came in direct contact with her
head resulting in lacerations.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Well, what they're trying to do is they're just trying
to say that she exaggerates, that she's embellishing what happened.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
That bodycm footage of blood all over her face didn't
exaggerate anything.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Right, All right, Well, we will continue to follow the
Koenig trial. I'm not sure how much longer. I feel
like we're towards the end of this trial and we're
going to end up with a verdict relatively soon, so
we will keep you informed.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Likely a guilty verdict.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Likely a guilty verdict. I can't do.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
What's the defense against the sun. That's not true. My
son's lying. It's not looking good for this dude.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It does not look good. All right, let's move on
to John List. I don't know if you've ever heard
of this. This is an older case. Actually, this case
fascinates me because I'm sure I've told you all this before,
but I'm a huge fan of forensic files. There actually
(10:25):
is Forensic Files one and two, and these are all,
I believe the original forensic files. I feel like a
lot of the cases are like in the ninety or
was it made in the nineties, probably, and then then
Forensic Files two it's more like two thousands.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I don't know when it was made. I just know
it airs and it's a timeless classic.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It is a classic. I love forensic files. If you
don't get excited with.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
That intro stamp on that when that intro comes on.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
And she snaps the glasses down in the in the
lab like the you know what I mean where I
fast forward the intro? No, you got to watch the intro.
The best part of Forensic Files is the introthing like that, right,
all right? So this is John List and this is
I would say this is probably one of my favorite
forensic files. It really sticks out in my mind. That's
why I wanted to go through it because it's perfect.
(11:11):
I do. I love forensic Files. I feel like we
should do a Forensic.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Files recap recap because.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I just just love it. Love forensic files anyway. Also
Forensic Files, I don't know why, but there's a lot
of episodes that take place in Ohio. So that's just
a fun fact about Forensic Files. So John List appeared
to live a perfect religious family life in New Jersey.
You gotta love those perfect religious lives. You always know
(11:37):
there's something coming up that's going to be dark. But
after secretly losing his job in nineteen seventy one, he
murdered his wife, three children, and mother in a planned
attempt to save their souls from future suffering. He carefully
staged the scene and disappeared successfully evading capture for eighteen
(11:59):
years while living under a completely new identity. In nineteen
eighty nine, he was finally identified after being featured on
America's Most Wanted. That's why I love this Forensic Files too,
because they show the American They show the America's Most
Wanted clips with John Walsh, which is another great show.
I feel like they need to bring that back. I
(12:21):
think they are. I think I saw something.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Oh yeah, America's Most Wanted. Yeah, he has streaming stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Maybe that's what I saw.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
In that world. Yeah. And then John Lyss was arrested
shortly after The America's Most Wanted aired. He was convicted
in nineteen ninety and sentenced to life in prison, where
he later died in two thousand and eight. So let's
go back through this guy's early life and family life.
So in nineteen twenty five, John Lyss was born. He
(12:51):
served in the US Army during World War Two. He
met his wife, Helen Morris Taylor. John and Helen had
three children, born between nineteen fifty five and fifty eight,
and then the Lists family relocates to Penfield, New York,
where John is employed by Xerox. They lived in this big,
beautiful home that had a ballroom and multiple bedrooms and
(13:18):
like this tiffany light and all kinds of things. So
I assumed that he made pretty good money. So in
nineteen sixty five he loses his position at x ROX,
but then he goes on to purchase a large, eighteen
room mansion in Westfield, New Jersey. His mother, Alma, provides
the down payment, and then that allows her to move
(13:38):
in with them. That's a good way to be able
to move into your kid's house.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Oh say, I'll pay for it.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
I'll pay for the down payment. I'll give you the
down payment for a house, but I have to live.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
With you, and you would require a big down payment.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I would require a big down payment. What do you
mean The kids would say I had to pay. They
would say I had to pay for the whole house,
and then they still wouldn't let me live there. Between
nineteen sixty five five in nineteen seventy one, List works
as a commission based insurance salesman, but struggles professionally after
two prior jobs fall through. On the surface, the family
appeared wealthy, stable, and representative of the American.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Dream key term right there on the surface.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
On the surface. That would be now in today's term.
On Instagram, it would be yes on Instagram. They appear
wealthy and stay on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
This dog appears friendly in your life. This dog is dangerous.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
The List family was deeply religious There's another red Flag
and attended church regularly as devout Lutherans. John Liss even
taught Sunday school. In nineteen seventy, his wife Helen, received
treatment for worsening cognitive issues, later diagnosed as tertiary syphilis OOH.
(14:53):
Tertiary syphilis is a severe, late stage and non infectious
form of untreated syphialis typically developing ten to thirty years
after the initial infection. It causes significant damage to organs,
including the brain, heart, eyes, and bones. I don't know
how she ended up getting syphilis, but maybe it was
from John, I don't know. So he pretends to go
(15:13):
to work each day, and instead of going to work,
he spends his days at the train station reading newspapers.
He's not even looking for another job. That's the part
that baffles my mind is instead of like, okay, so
he's going to pretend that he's going to work every day,
he's going to lie to his family and not tell
them that he lost his job. But instead of pretending
like you're going to work every day and then going
to look for another job, he just goes to the
(15:34):
train station and reads the newspaper.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
He looks maybe.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
He secretly took money from his mother's bank accounts to
keep up with expenses, and he refused to apply for
welfare because of pride and fear of embarrassment. During this
time period, he became increasingly overwhelmed by financial pressure and expectations. Then,
on October fourteenth of nineteen seventy one, John applied for
a gun permit, saying he needs a gun for home protection. Then,
(16:01):
in early November of nineteen seventy one, John's daughter Patricia
reportedly tells her drama coach that her father has threatened
to kill her family. All right, So then he comes
up with a plan of how to deal with the
finances and the embarrassment of having to go on welfare
and the embarrassment of not having a job. He decides
the best thing to do is to murder his entire family.
(16:22):
So on November ninth of nineteen seventy one, John Liss
murders his entire family. First, he shoots his wife Helen.
I believe, she's sitting at a table drinking coffee, and
I think the kid's already left for school, and he
shoots her z he kills her. Then he goes upstairs
and his mother is in bed. He shoots her in bed.
Then his daughter, Patricia I believe, comes home from school,
he shoots her. John comes home from school, he shoots him.
(16:46):
And then the last son I believe, had some kind
of like game or something. He was in sports, So
I think John actually went and watched him play sports
while the whole family's dead. So everybody's dead in the house.
He goes to the son's game I believe, and watches him,
drives him home, and then shoots him. So now the
whole entire family is dead. He then moves all of
(17:10):
them into the ballroom well, and he spends the night
in the house first, so everybody's dead in the house,
stays the night in the house. I don't know he
should have, but he kills his whole family, and then
he moves them all into the ballroom and wraps him
in sleeping bags. He even attended his son's soccer game
(17:30):
before bringing him home and shooting him. Several times in
the chest and the face.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
How are you just a normal family man who goes
to church every Sunday and teaches Sunday school and has
three children and a wife and a mom.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
He's not a normal fan. Do you not see that?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
But how do you pretend to be a normal family man?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Like?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Is he normal? And then something happens?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Partly why I asked how long it was? But the
time he lost his job, from the time he went
and got a gun. How long was he reading those newspapers?
Maybe went crazy so.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Within that time period, or maybe he was always crazy
and then he was triggered, or maybe he wasn't crazy
at all.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I mean, maybe it was his mom living with him.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Who knows. You think it was the mom living with him.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You think that's what pushed him over there when he killed.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
No, the wife was the first when he killed. He
killed his wife first and then he killed his.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Mom, the two women in his life.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yes, he killed them first, all right, So in November
to December of nineteen seventy one, this is how John
lyss covers up this crime and escapes.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
So you never plan on killing himself.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
No, that was not part of the plan.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
He was just going to kill the people that he
thought would be embarrassed in front of Yeah, right, then
he wasn't embarrassed of killing everyone.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
No.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And I guess because he was such a devout Christian.
I always love how people were use religion Christian killers, right,
Like even when we talk about other cases where people
were like, I can't get divorced, it's against my religion,
so I'll just I'll just murder my spouse. But I guess.
And he had such a reputation in the community, and
he was an upstanding.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
They say, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
It's it's reputation.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's fear of people, not fear of God.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Right, He's worried about what people are going to think
of him, not what really you know.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Right, So, after the murders took place, he spends the
night in the house and then he places the bodies
and the mansion's ballroom on sleeping bags. He wrote a
detailed letter to his pastor explaining his actions. In the letter,
he claims that he killed his family in order to
save their souls from moral corruption. I don't believe that
crap for one minute. I just think he was just
(19:33):
embarrassed by the financial situation.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, killed him for more.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
He couldn't afford his lifestyle, he couldn't afford the house.
He was skimming money from his mother. He couldn't keep
doing that for long. So he's like, how do I
get out of this? I'll just kill my family. He
carefully cleaned the crime scene and attempt to delay discovery
because he needs time to get away, right, And he
removed This part cracks me up. He removed his face
from all of the family photographs to make identification of
(20:01):
him more difficult. So he went around in the house
and every photograph that he's in he cuts his face
out of.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
It, and so like, as if that's key evidence, Like
detectives use family photos like to try to find the suspect.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I mean, this is the seventies, so I guess there
isn't there's not a digital footprint of this man.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
It's not like, oh, you're right, it was seventy one.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
It's seventy one. So if he removes his photograph from
the house, but there's got.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
To be other photographs. He went through every photograph, the
photograph album, and the other kids, probably Aaron. Where was
the where's oh he killed her.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
He killed everybody. There's no one left. And he removes
all his photographs from the house. So I guess he
assumes that if there's no photographs of him, then there's
no way that they can put an idea of what
he looks like out there.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
They also walk around with like a Karl Marx like glasses,
notes and mustache.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, so no one can see him.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
He contacted the kids square and said that the family
would be on vacation for two weeks.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
They're in the ballroom, they won't be able to come
to school.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well, you know what, he needed time to get away
and start a new life, so he does all Maybe.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
He should have planned all that when he was at
the bus station with the newspapers.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Well maybe he was planning of then that.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Maybe he was planning at them. I don't know. And
he needs more time, he well, he needs time to
evade capture. So if he gets rid of all his
photographs and then no one notices that the kids don't
show up to school. So he called and said the
kids are going to be on vacation for two weeks.
That means the school is not saying, oh where are
these kids? And the calling the police.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
They're not taking a mom. Did she work?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Do we know? Well? His mother was eighty something, and
his wife, I doubt worked, so no one's missing her
at work. The mother lives with them, she's eighty four.
I don't know. Maybe they don't show up for church.
I don't know. He turned the air conditioning on high
so that they didn't decompose quickly, so that there wouldn't
be a smell. He left lights on and played music
(21:54):
throughout the house to make it seem occupied, so that
people weren't being like, oh, there's something we're going on.
I haven't seen anybody go in and out. He left
music on, lights on, and air conditioning on high, and
then the next day he left the house and completely disappeared.
(22:17):
Weeks later, the neighbors became suspicious due to no activity
at the home. They're like, it's been the same song
over and over and over. Probably right. Police entered the
house on December seventh, nineteen seventy one. Now, remember, no.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
It couldn't have been the same song over and over again.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I know, I'm just joking.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
It was nineteen seventy one, so I just had to be
the radio.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, it said, he well, how did he play music
in nineteen seventy one?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Radio?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Just a radio, There was no other way.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
He put a record it, it would get to the
end of the track and it'd be done.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Well, maybe he just played a record and then it
got to the end of the track and it was done.
But he murdered his remember he murdered his entire family
on November ninth. The police do not enter the house
until December seventh, so he had almost a full month
to get away. So the police centered the house on
December seventh, nineteen seventy one, and they discovered the bodies.
(23:05):
They also found the letter in which Liszt explained the murders.
Religious music was still playing throughout the house. Well, how
did he do that? It says religious music? And so
religious music was playing in this house for all the while.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Radio station a religious radio station.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Christian rock in seventy one was Christian rock a thing
in seventy one. His car was later found at John F.
Kennedy International Airport. Despite this, there was no immediate trace
of him. Well, and they don't know what he looks
like because he got rid of all photographs, so nobody
can where They're like, we can't find it. We don't
know what he looks like.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Even better, he should have cut and pasted like someone
else's face.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
That guy right, some neighbory he doesn't like. Yeah, there
was no immediate trace of him and the case went cold.
Oddly enough, the Lists family's mansion burnt down several months
after the murders. The cause of the fire was never determined,
and a new house was later built on the proper.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Well, you know what that sucks.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
For my my? You know, I would like to do
a legally brunette you know, tour road trip. We can, Yes,
we can't go to the John List mansion now because
it burned down.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
And do you have on the list?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You have murdog Yes, I want to go have Beverly Hills.
Brothers were at.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
The Menindaz brother's house. We definitely need to go to
Beverly Hills. Yeah, we should go to Corey Richan's mansion
in Utah that she bought because she wanted to live
in the guest house.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
See what we drove by, Right.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
We should go there. I don't know. Well, I'll make
a list. We'll talk about next episode. We'll have our
road trip planned out. John List remained missing for eighteen years.
After the murders, he moved to Colorado initially and then
later settled in Virginia. He applied for a Social Security
card using the name Robert P. Clark and gave a
(24:53):
Denver motel as his address. In nineteen eighty five, he
gets remarried to Dolores Miller. The couple moved to Virginia
in nineteen eighty eight, and he continued working as an
accountant while living a completely normal way.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
So when he had a family, he didn't want to
get a job, and then after he kills his family,
he's like, Okay, I need to get a job.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I don't know, that's what I'm saying. I don't know.
When he's sitting at the train station and looking at
the newspaper, was he trying to actively find a job
and then he couldn't find a job so he freaked
out and killed his family or did he just come
up with this plan that he's like, I'm not going
to get a job. I'm just going to kill my
family and I'm gonna run away and I'm going to start
a whole new life. I don't know. In nineteen eighty nine,
his case was featured on America's Most Wanted. A forensic
(25:36):
artist created an age progressed image of John List. But
listen this image that they created on America's Most Wanted.
They made a bust of him. It was not a pho.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
How do they even know what he looked like? How
he cut all the photos out?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I don't know they.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I'm sure they had to have found some photo or someone.
I don't know, but they made Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
They had to have an aid. They found a child photo.
That's why they had doing age. Oh that's right, you're right,
Oh you remember.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
It now, Well it was only five No, I'm just
figuring it out because you're telling me he killed them
in seventy one.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, and they found him in what year?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
His case is featured on America's Most Wanted in nineteen
eighty nine. And I love the clips of this because
they they don't do a sketch artist. It's not a
sketch artist. They make a artist. It's a bust artist.
They make an actual bust of him, and then it
talks about how this this artist that puts together this
(26:30):
bust of his image went to like he had to
go to all these places to find like the perfect
glasses because he wore like those.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Oh wasn't it the glasses that did it too? Yes,
I remember this one. Yeah, there you go. It was
like the glasses.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Like he spent a lot of time figuring out the glasses.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Glasses. What kind of glasses would a killer wear? You
found him?
Speaker 1 (26:49):
It was those seventies style.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Right, But he had it.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
He looked at his personality and looked at everything and
figured out what kind of glasses he would have.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, and he found the exact ones that he wanted
and he put them on the bust. And then that
bust with the glasses was featured on America's Most Wanted.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah. And then someone was like, my neighbor has those glasses.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yes, it wasn't just the glasses. Well, a neighbor recognized
him and reported him to authorities, and he was arrested
on June first of nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
And he had those glasses, he did, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
He did so. According to the La Times Archives, his wife,
Delores Clark, this is his you know, his new his
new wife, his new his new life. Although he future
he should have this is where he messed up. He
should have not continued to wear the same glasses, because
then he wouldn't have been recognized.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Family.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I know, I'm saying. I'm saying he evaded capture for
eighteen years, and then the reason that the neighbor recognized
them is because he continued to wear those same seventies
style glasses. So anyway, according to the La Times Archives,
his wife, Delores Clark, said that she was making her
statement reluctantly and that she would have no further comment.
(27:59):
She said she was shocked to hear about Bob's arrest
and what he was charged with. This is not the
man I know. The man I know is kind, loving,
a devoted husband, and a dear friend. He is a quiet,
yet friendly man who loves his work and the people
he works.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Family man.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, he goes to church and you know all the things.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
His glasses and everything. He couldn't be a killer.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
One friend, unidentified by the newspaper said that John had
told Dolores he had been married before to an alcoholic
who had died of cancer. He told her she went
through a slow, agonizing death. So this is what he
told the new wife.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
She died in the ballroom in the house burned down.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, and what and he forgot to mention his mother,
his kids, and his three children.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, had a great last football game. No soccer, soccer,
soccer before family.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
This is either the most unbelievable mix up or he
is the biggest con man who ever walked the Earth.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Scenario.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yes, this was another unidentified friend who was interviewed, who
told the paper in nineteen ninety he goes to trial.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Wait, where's the forensics is it?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
That's the bus that was it was the bust. It
that was the forensics. Yeah, well in the nineties, this
is you know, this is forensic finance, right, so that
was the forensics. I mean, this is forensics covers a lot,
but it's not just DNA. So the forensics was the
ability to make the bust and age progress it to
(29:37):
look like what he would look like twenty years later,
and to find the glasses that he would be wearing
and to I think they even said he was probably
working as an accountant or something because he has a
finance background, and so you know, they were putting all
that together. At trial, the defense argued that Liszt suffered
from PTSD and psychological issues.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Please bear be grief through this struggling time where my
family is dead prosecutors.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Privacy prosecutors emphasized that the murders were planned and deliberate.
How do you know, I mean.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
It doesn't take a rocket science to figure that one out, right, I.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Mean, talk about this may have planned more than a
lot of people we talk about. I mean he had,
he had all planned out who he was killing, who,
the order he killed them in, placing them in the ballroom,
turning the air conditioning.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
On, shopping the family photos, well, photoshop, seventies photoshoppers, parisisss.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
That's how you photoshopped in the seventies. That's how you
photoshopped up until you know I used to photoshop in yearbooks.
Is you just took a black marker and you.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Just that's how you unfriended something?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, you just you just blo Yes?
Speaker 2 (30:47):
How many?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
How many of your high school classmates have crossed out
your photo in their years?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
I don't know. Should we take a poll if there's
anyone out there listening from Madison.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
High School class ninety nine, class.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
In ninety nine?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yea, how many people were in your class? Oh?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I thought you might have graduated in ninety one. I
graduated in ninety four, and there were ninety nine people
in my graduating class. Yes, what do you think? Ninety
eight of them have crossed me out of the yearbooks
so far. Thank you, Yes, I do. Wow. I was
popular in high school.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
They you were popular in nice Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I don't know about now, but I was then, all right.
The jury found him guilty of all charges, and John
Lyss was sent to five life terms in prison. Obviously,
he got a life term for every one of his victims.
In later interviews, John Lyss said that he believed killing
his family ensured their place in heaven. That was so
(31:46):
nice of him.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Oh yeah, very good. He wasn't worried about himself.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
No, no, he was the victim in all of this,
and he was ensuring that.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
He was doing the hard work.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
He was. He was making sure that his family was
going to make it to heaven, and that was very
kind of him. He also said that he did not
take his own life because he believed it would prevent
his own salvation. See that is the most backwards thinking.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Well, it's not he's just saying a bunch of he's
spewing a bunch of crap.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
He's just saying whatever, right, because.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
He's saying suicide is bad. So I didn't take my
own life because my then I won't be saved. Right.
He's saying suicide is not going to get him into heaven.
But he did like this kind act by killing his
whole family because then they could enter the.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
It's not the case, clearly, it's I wanted to keep living,
so I didn't kill myself, and.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I wanted to get married again, and now I have.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
To explain it. So then he came up with some
stupid explanation.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
A John List died of complications from devon. Yeah, he's dead.
He died in prison in two thousand.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
And eight at the age of eighty two, so he's
in prison for what twenty years?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
He went to prison in nineteen ninety yeah, and then
he died in eighteen year. Yeah, he was in prison
for eighteen years. So I guess there was some justice.
Thank you guys for listening to till death do us Part.
That was the case of John List and the murder
of his family, And of course that is our PSA
(33:17):
to our listeners. Divorce is always the better option. Who
cares what society will say. You don't have to post
it on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Because what's society saying about him? Once he got arrested.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
What a psychopath? Yeah, exactly, all right, thank you for listening.
Till Death Do Us Part. You can find all of
our episodes on the legally Brunette feed. Please be sure
to follow legally Brunette and leave us a review. We
love to read them. Also, be sure to tell your
friends and family about Legally Brunette. Also, if you have
any cases, especially husband and wife type cases that would
(33:49):
be good for Till Death Do Us Part. I love
your recommendations, so please feel free to reach out and
let me know what cases you want to hear about. Also,
let me know if you watch Forensic File and let
me know if you would be interested in a Forensic
Files recap. So I think that would be fun, but
I would love to hear your thoughts on that as well.
And just a reminder that all of our episodes are
(34:10):
on the legally Brunette feed. However, there are some episodes
into Tease, but in order to access all of them,
you need to access them from our own feed. So
thank you guys for listening. We appreciate you so much
Hi, guys, Welcome to Legally Brunette Presents Till Death Do
Us Part, where we talk about cases in which wives
try to get rid of their husbands or husbands trying
to get rid of their wives. And today we're going
to do an update on the Gerhardt Koenig trial. We
talked about it last week, so if you didn't listen
to the episode, you should go back and listen to it,
because again, I feel like you'd have to live under
(00:24):
a rock to not have at least no a little
bit or have seen his face out there. This is
the case of the doctor. He's an antesthesiologist who tried
to push his wife. Allegedly he did it, tried to
he allegedly tried to push his wife, did the Palipuka
(00:44):
trail in Hawaii.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
He at tempted and he failed.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
He failed miserably. And the trial has been going on,
and we left off last week where we were recorded
an episode. Ariel had taken the stand and then also
the witness, and there were some other people that had testified,
but at the time that we recorded it, Gerhard had
not taken the stand, and we were also contemplating whether
(01:10):
his son was going to take the stand and testify.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, we heard he was.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
We heard he was.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It's hard to believe, right.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
And we didn't know, I mean, we didn't know if
he was going to testify against his dad or what.
But now we know, so let's talk about it. Gerhardt
took the stand in his own defense, admitting that he
struck his wife with a rock during their hike, but
he claimed that he was acting in self defense after
she allegedly tried to push him off the cliff and
(01:37):
attacked him first. So obviously, if his his whole defense
to this trial is self defense, he's going to have
to testify on his own behalf because obviously he's the
only person that can testify as to what he claims happened.
So what do you think about him testifying on his
own behalf?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Usually when a defendant testifies, generally speaking, it's likely against
the advice of their attorney, generally speaking. But they are
such a narcissist and they think they can talk their
way out of it, and they think that they're such
such a charming person that they can they can get.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
To the jury, they can convince that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
And they're not gonna let her. He's not gonna let
her get the word in. He's gonna tell it like
it is.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
That's what I think.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So when he was testified, he denied trying to kill her,
and he denied having the syringes during the incident. Remember
how when she testified, she claimed that after he tried
to push her to the edge, and then she grabbed
onto a tree branch, and then he grabbed her by
the arms, and then they wrestled a little bit, and
then she fell to the ground. She claimed that he
straddled her and that he reached down and pulled a
(02:50):
syringe out that but the syringe was never found at
the scene of the crime. Obviously, when he ran after
she got hit in the head with the rock and
the two hikers came along and helped her down the trail.
He could have easily picked up those syringes and got
in a.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Wet vegetated area like that. I mean, a little syringe
tosses it somewhere far away, it's going to be tough
to find.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
He said that the confrontation stemmed from their marital tensions
after discovering her. I love how we always called it
an emotional affair. It's very every article I've ever read
about this case always talks about how she had an
affair with a co worker, but it's always an emotional affair.
Koenig also testified, I.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Get emotional tonight, babe.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I mean this, would you like to have an emotional emotional.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Eythings such bull crab.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
It's like, there's no evidence that actually sleeping together, so
we need to say it was just emotion.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
It was an emotional affair.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
No exchanging of bodily fluid.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Koenig also testified about feeling quote severe emotional distress after
hurting his wife and said he contemplated suicide. So this
was him on the stand in his own defense. Probably,
like you said, was such a huge ego, and he's
such a narcissist that I'm sure he truly believes that
he can convince the jury of his genuine feelings, and
(04:14):
that she attacked him first and tried to push him
off the cliff, and he was only hitting her in
the head with a law of a rock because he
was acting in self defense, because he was truly scared
for his life. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Then his son testified Emil, so Emil only referred to
his father. I don't know if you noticed this, if
you saw any of the testimony, Yeah, but he only
refers to his father as the defendant throughout the entire testimony.
Emil said that his father believed Ariel had been unfaithful,
and he told him he wouldn't be returning to Maui.
Gerhard asked Emil to care for his younger siblings. This
(04:51):
is when he's testifying that after the incident, his dad
called him via FaceTime. He also testified that his father
face timed him again the way, why.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Would he think that his son would want to hear.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
That, hear that or protect him or any.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Of the above, Like why would he think that that's
what he needed to do if it was his buddy
and his buddy was going to help him kill her,
and like was in on it, like his partner that way,
or his mistress that was in on it.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I could see that. Why would you think to call
his son?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I don't know. I don't know what kind of relationship
he had with his older son. I believe he's nineteen,
But maybe he felt like they had a good father's
son relationship and his son wasn't gonna wasn't going to
turn on him. I don't know, And maybe he was
in such an emotional state because he didn't know what
to do. Can you imagine how frazzle.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I think of it.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
He really didn't know what he was doing. He just
needed to reach out someone. He was just a mess.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, because imagine how frazzled he is. Because from my perspective,
I'm going to go with this is premeditated. He knew
what he was going to do. He picked that trail.
I believe there's forensic evidence of him doing doing searches
for trails and whole that had, you.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Know, cliffs, you know, where to a syringe.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yes, so I believe that, you know, he had every
intention of pushing her off of the cliff that day
and then claiming that they were just taking a selfie
and she slipped. And I'm sure in his mind he
thought it was very simple. He thought, we're just going
to go out on this trailiffs and we're just gonna
take a selfie as close to the edge as we can,
(06:25):
and I'm just going to push her off, and then
I'm going to be the distraw husband that's crying and says,
oh my gosh, we were taking a selfie and she fell,
And but what happened was. She fought her way and
then he didn't know what to do. Was tougher than
he thought, right, So then I think he freaked out,
picked up a rock, starts beating her on the head,
and then some hikers come along and for that, No,
(06:45):
and he didn't plan for any of that, So he
doesn't know what to do. This guy's a can you
imagine what state of mind he's in.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
He just runs hide the syringe. Yeah, he succeeded in
that exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And I do believe that there was a syringe because a.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Blue plunger she described it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I mean, there's no way that she went through all
of that and then created like a fake narrative about
a syringe in the middle of it. Like that makes
no sense at all. It's enough just to say he
tried to push her off the edge and then he
beat her with the rock.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, fine, let's we'll disregard the syringe. You can have
that one. Mister Koenig or what's his name, Tonig?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, well, his name's Gerhart last Kronig.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Killer. We'll call him killer.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And when I saw that defend the son against the defendant,
he seemed like he didn't give a crap about his dad.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
He wasn't emotional.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
He was just like, yeah, that dude over there, Yeah
he's a killer.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, put him in jail.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Yeah he did this to me, like he called me
like he did not, like he was over he was
checked out.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, you're saying because we've seen other people, like even
in the Corey Richm's case we were talking about when
the boyfriend testified against her.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I didn't see that one.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I did, but he was an emotional wreck. You could
tell he did not want to do that. So it
was very he had a hard time.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Like the son, Yeah, the woman that he was in
love with.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Was killer and then he had to testify, whereas.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
This guy was not like it sucks that my dad's
a killer. No, he's like, I want nothing to do
with that dude.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Right, So he does FaceTime again a second time, roughly
an hour later, and said he was going to jump
off the cliff before police could catch him. That's an
account that contradicts Gerhardt's self defense claim because obviously, well.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Every bit of evidence contradicts his self defense claim.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Well, they had a forensic some type of forensic person
testify that apparently Ariel had claimed or her team or
the prosecution or whatever had claimed that she had been
hit in the head like ten times, and then they
had a forensic expert testify on behalf of the defense,
claiming that she was really only hit two to three times.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah, but you know what, in all that struggling, I
imagine it's possible forensically that they can show that that
lava rock, which we discussed last week as being sharp,
hit and made contact and made what do you call it,
like abrasion lacerations, lacerations two to three times or whatever
it was. But in all that struggling, maybe there was
(09:10):
a lot of wailing of the arms and she was
kind of getting smacked around a little bit, but not
necessarily like sharp contact was made to her head, like
it might have been the back of his hand or something.
So excuse her for not having counted the amount of
times the lava rock came in direct contact with her
head resulting in lacerations.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Well, what they're trying to do is they're just trying
to say that she exaggerates, that she's embellishing what happened.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
That bodycm footage of blood all over her face didn't
exaggerate anything.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Right, All right, Well, we will continue to follow the
Koenig trial. I'm not sure how much longer. I feel
like we're towards the end of this trial and we're
going to end up with a verdict relatively soon, so
we will keep you informed.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Likely a guilty verdict.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Likely a guilty verdict. I can't do.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
What's the defense against the sun. That's not true. My
son's lying. It's not looking good for this dude.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It does not look good. All right, let's move on
to John List. I don't know if you've ever heard
of this. This is an older case. Actually, this case
fascinates me because I'm sure I've told you all this before,
but I'm a huge fan of forensic files. There actually
(10:25):
is Forensic Files one and two, and these are all,
I believe the original forensic files. I feel like a
lot of the cases are like in the ninety or
was it made in the nineties, probably, and then then
Forensic Files two it's more like two thousands.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
I don't know when it was made. I just know
it airs and it's a timeless classic.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It is a classic. I love forensic files. If you
don't get excited with.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
That intro stamp on that when that intro comes on.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
And she snaps the glasses down in the in the
lab like the you know what I mean where I
fast forward the intro? No, you got to watch the intro.
The best part of Forensic Files is the introthing like that, right,
all right? So this is John List and this is
I would say this is probably one of my favorite
forensic files. It really sticks out in my mind. That's
why I wanted to go through it because it's perfect.
(11:11):
I do. I love forensic Files. I feel like we
should do a Forensic.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Files recap recap because.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I just just love it. Love forensic files anyway. Also
Forensic Files, I don't know why, but there's a lot
of episodes that take place in Ohio. So that's just
a fun fact about Forensic Files. So John List appeared
to live a perfect religious family life in New Jersey.
You gotta love those perfect religious lives. You always know
(11:37):
there's something coming up that's going to be dark. But
after secretly losing his job in nineteen seventy one, he
murdered his wife, three children, and mother in a planned
attempt to save their souls from future suffering. He carefully
staged the scene and disappeared successfully evading capture for eighteen
(11:59):
years while living under a completely new identity. In nineteen
eighty nine, he was finally identified after being featured on
America's Most Wanted. That's why I love this Forensic Files too,
because they show the American They show the America's Most
Wanted clips with John Walsh, which is another great show.
I feel like they need to bring that back. I
(12:21):
think they are. I think I saw something.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Oh yeah, America's Most Wanted. Yeah, he has streaming stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Maybe that's it.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Maybe that's what I saw.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
In that world. Yeah. And then John Lyss was arrested
shortly after The America's Most Wanted aired. He was convicted
in nineteen ninety and sentenced to life in prison, where
he later died in two thousand and eight. So let's
go back through this guy's early life and family life.
So in nineteen twenty five, John Lyss was born. He
(12:51):
served in the US Army during World War Two. He
met his wife, Helen Morris Taylor. John and Helen had
three children, born between nineteen fifty five and fifty eight,
and then the Lists family relocates to Penfield, New York,
where John is employed by Xerox. They lived in this big,
beautiful home that had a ballroom and multiple bedrooms and
(13:18):
like this tiffany light and all kinds of things. So
I assumed that he made pretty good money. So in
nineteen sixty five he loses his position at x ROX,
but then he goes on to purchase a large, eighteen
room mansion in Westfield, New Jersey. His mother, Alma, provides
the down payment, and then that allows her to move
(13:38):
in with them. That's a good way to be able
to move into your kid's house.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Oh say, I'll pay for it.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
I'll pay for the down payment. I'll give you the
down payment for a house, but I have to live.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
With you, and you would require a big down payment.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I would require a big down payment. What do you
mean The kids would say I had to pay. They
would say I had to pay for the whole house,
and then they still wouldn't let me live there. Between
nineteen sixty five five in nineteen seventy one, List works
as a commission based insurance salesman, but struggles professionally after
two prior jobs fall through. On the surface, the family
appeared wealthy, stable, and representative of the American.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Dream key term right there on the surface.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
On the surface. That would be now in today's term.
On Instagram, it would be yes on Instagram. They appear
wealthy and stay on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
This dog appears friendly in your life. This dog is dangerous.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
The List family was deeply religious There's another red Flag
and attended church regularly as devout Lutherans. John Liss even
taught Sunday school. In nineteen seventy, his wife Helen, received
treatment for worsening cognitive issues, later diagnosed as tertiary syphilis OOH.
(14:53):
Tertiary syphilis is a severe, late stage and non infectious
form of untreated syphialis typically developing ten to thirty years
after the initial infection. It causes significant damage to organs,
including the brain, heart, eyes, and bones. I don't know
how she ended up getting syphilis, but maybe it was
from John, I don't know. So he pretends to go
(15:13):
to work each day, and instead of going to work,
he spends his days at the train station reading newspapers.
He's not even looking for another job. That's the part
that baffles my mind is instead of like, okay, so
he's going to pretend that he's going to work every day,
he's going to lie to his family and not tell
them that he lost his job. But instead of pretending
like you're going to work every day and then going
to look for another job, he just goes to the
(15:34):
train station and reads the newspaper.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
He looks maybe.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
He secretly took money from his mother's bank accounts to
keep up with expenses, and he refused to apply for
welfare because of pride and fear of embarrassment. During this
time period, he became increasingly overwhelmed by financial pressure and expectations. Then,
on October fourteenth of nineteen seventy one, John applied for
a gun permit, saying he needs a gun for home protection. Then,
(16:01):
in early November of nineteen seventy one, John's daughter Patricia
reportedly tells her drama coach that her father has threatened
to kill her family. All right, So then he comes
up with a plan of how to deal with the
finances and the embarrassment of having to go on welfare
and the embarrassment of not having a job. He decides
the best thing to do is to murder his entire family.
(16:22):
So on November ninth of nineteen seventy one, John Liss
murders his entire family. First, he shoots his wife Helen.
I believe, she's sitting at a table drinking coffee, and
I think the kid's already left for school, and he
shoots her z he kills her. Then he goes upstairs
and his mother is in bed. He shoots her in bed.
Then his daughter, Patricia I believe, comes home from school,
he shoots her. John comes home from school, he shoots him.
(16:46):
And then the last son I believe, had some kind
of like game or something. He was in sports, So
I think John actually went and watched him play sports
while the whole family's dead. So everybody's dead in the house.
He goes to the son's game I believe, and watches him,
drives him home, and then shoots him. So now the
whole entire family is dead. He then moves all of
(17:10):
them into the ballroom well, and he spends the night
in the house first, so everybody's dead in the house,
stays the night in the house. I don't know he
should have, but he kills his whole family, and then
he moves them all into the ballroom and wraps him
in sleeping bags. He even attended his son's soccer game
(17:30):
before bringing him home and shooting him. Several times in
the chest and the face.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
How are you just a normal family man who goes
to church every Sunday and teaches Sunday school and has
three children and a wife and a mom.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
He's not a normal fan. Do you not see that?
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:49):
But how do you pretend to be a normal family man?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Like?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Is he normal? And then something happens?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Partly why I asked how long it was? But the
time he lost his job, from the time he went
and got a gun. How long was he reading those newspapers?
Maybe went crazy so.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Within that time period, or maybe he was always crazy
and then he was triggered, or maybe he wasn't crazy
at all.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I mean, maybe it was his mom living with him.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Who knows. You think it was the mom living with him.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You think that's what pushed him over there when he killed.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
No, the wife was the first when he killed. He
killed his wife first and then he killed his.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Mom, the two women in his life.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yes, he killed them first, all right, So in November
to December of nineteen seventy one, this is how John
lyss covers up this crime and escapes.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
So you never plan on killing himself.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
No, that was not part of the plan.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
He was just going to kill the people that he
thought would be embarrassed in front of Yeah, right, then
he wasn't embarrassed of killing everyone.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
No.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And I guess because he was such a devout Christian.
I always love how people were use religion Christian killers, right,
Like even when we talk about other cases where people
were like, I can't get divorced, it's against my religion,
so I'll just I'll just murder my spouse. But I guess.
And he had such a reputation in the community, and
he was an upstanding.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
They say, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
It's it's reputation.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's fear of people, not fear of God.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Right, He's worried about what people are going to think
of him, not what really you know.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Right, So, after the murders took place, he spends the
night in the house and then he places the bodies
and the mansion's ballroom on sleeping bags. He wrote a
detailed letter to his pastor explaining his actions. In the letter,
he claims that he killed his family in order to
save their souls from moral corruption. I don't believe that
crap for one minute. I just think he was just
(19:33):
embarrassed by the financial situation.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, killed him for more.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
He couldn't afford his lifestyle, he couldn't afford the house.
He was skimming money from his mother. He couldn't keep
doing that for long. So he's like, how do I
get out of this? I'll just kill my family. He
carefully cleaned the crime scene and attempt to delay discovery
because he needs time to get away, right, And he
removed This part cracks me up. He removed his face
from all of the family photographs to make identification of
(20:01):
him more difficult. So he went around in the house
and every photograph that he's in he cuts his face
out of.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
It, and so like, as if that's key evidence, Like
detectives use family photos like to try to find the suspect.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I mean, this is the seventies, so I guess there
isn't there's not a digital footprint of this man.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
It's not like, oh, you're right, it was seventy one.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
It's seventy one. So if he removes his photograph from
the house, but there's got.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
To be other photographs. He went through every photograph, the
photograph album, and the other kids, probably Aaron. Where was
the where's oh he killed her.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
He killed everybody. There's no one left. And he removes
all his photographs from the house. So I guess he
assumes that if there's no photographs of him, then there's
no way that they can put an idea of what
he looks like out there.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
They also walk around with like a Karl Marx like glasses,
notes and mustache.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, so no one can see him.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
He contacted the kids square and said that the family
would be on vacation for two weeks.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
They're in the ballroom, they won't be able to come
to school.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well, you know what, he needed time to get away
and start a new life, so he does all Maybe.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
He should have planned all that when he was at
the bus station with the newspapers.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Well maybe he was planning of then that.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Maybe he was planning at them. I don't know. And
he needs more time, he well, he needs time to
evade capture. So if he gets rid of all his
photographs and then no one notices that the kids don't
show up to school. So he called and said the
kids are going to be on vacation for two weeks.
That means the school is not saying, oh where are
these kids? And the calling the police.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
They're not taking a mom. Did she work?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Do we know? Well? His mother was eighty something, and
his wife, I doubt worked, so no one's missing her
at work. The mother lives with them, she's eighty four.
I don't know. Maybe they don't show up for church.
I don't know. He turned the air conditioning on high
so that they didn't decompose quickly, so that there wouldn't
be a smell. He left lights on and played music
(21:54):
throughout the house to make it seem occupied, so that
people weren't being like, oh, there's something we're going on.
I haven't seen anybody go in and out. He left
music on, lights on, and air conditioning on high, and
then the next day he left the house and completely disappeared.
(22:17):
Weeks later, the neighbors became suspicious due to no activity
at the home. They're like, it's been the same song
over and over and over. Probably right. Police entered the
house on December seventh, nineteen seventy one. Now, remember, no.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
It couldn't have been the same song over and over again.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I know, I'm just joking.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
It was nineteen seventy one, so I just had to be
the radio.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Well, it said, he well, how did he play music
in nineteen seventy one?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Radio?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Just a radio, There was no other way.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
He put a record it, it would get to the
end of the track and it'd be done.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Well, maybe he just played a record and then it
got to the end of the track and it was done.
But he murdered his remember he murdered his entire family
on November ninth. The police do not enter the house
until December seventh, so he had almost a full month
to get away. So the police centered the house on
December seventh, nineteen seventy one, and they discovered the bodies.
(23:05):
They also found the letter in which Liszt explained the murders.
Religious music was still playing throughout the house. Well, how
did he do that? It says religious music? And so
religious music was playing in this house for all the while.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Radio station a religious radio station.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Christian rock in seventy one was Christian rock a thing
in seventy one. His car was later found at John F.
Kennedy International Airport. Despite this, there was no immediate trace
of him. Well, and they don't know what he looks
like because he got rid of all photographs, so nobody
can where They're like, we can't find it. We don't
know what he looks like.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Even better, he should have cut and pasted like someone
else's face.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
That guy right, some neighbory he doesn't like. Yeah, there
was no immediate trace of him and the case went cold.
Oddly enough, the Lists family's mansion burnt down several months
after the murders. The cause of the fire was never determined,
and a new house was later built on the proper.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Well, you know what that sucks.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
For my my? You know, I would like to do
a legally brunette you know, tour road trip. We can, Yes,
we can't go to the John List mansion now because
it burned down.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
And do you have on the list?
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You have murdog Yes, I want to go have Beverly Hills.
Brothers were at.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
The Menindaz brother's house. We definitely need to go to
Beverly Hills. Yeah, we should go to Corey Richan's mansion
in Utah that she bought because she wanted to live
in the guest house.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
See what we drove by, Right.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
We should go there. I don't know. Well, I'll make
a list. We'll talk about next episode. We'll have our
road trip planned out. John List remained missing for eighteen years.
After the murders, he moved to Colorado initially and then
later settled in Virginia. He applied for a Social Security
card using the name Robert P. Clark and gave a
(24:53):
Denver motel as his address. In nineteen eighty five, he
gets remarried to Dolores Miller. The couple moved to Virginia
in nineteen eighty eight, and he continued working as an
accountant while living a completely normal way.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
So when he had a family, he didn't want to
get a job, and then after he kills his family,
he's like, Okay, I need to get a job.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I don't know, that's what I'm saying. I don't know.
When he's sitting at the train station and looking at
the newspaper, was he trying to actively find a job
and then he couldn't find a job so he freaked
out and killed his family or did he just come
up with this plan that he's like, I'm not going
to get a job. I'm just going to kill my
family and I'm gonna run away and I'm going to start
a whole new life. I don't know. In nineteen eighty nine,
his case was featured on America's Most Wanted. A forensic
(25:36):
artist created an age progressed image of John List. But
listen this image that they created on America's Most Wanted.
They made a bust of him. It was not a pho.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
How do they even know what he looked like? How
he cut all the photos out?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I don't know they.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I'm sure they had to have found some photo or someone.
I don't know, but they made Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
They had to have an aid. They found a child photo.
That's why they had doing age. Oh that's right, you're right,
Oh you remember.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
It now, Well it was only five No, I'm just
figuring it out because you're telling me he killed them
in seventy one.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, and they found him in what year?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
His case is featured on America's Most Wanted in nineteen
eighty nine. And I love the clips of this because
they they don't do a sketch artist. It's not a
sketch artist. They make a artist. It's a bust artist.
They make an actual bust of him, and then it
talks about how this this artist that puts together this
(26:30):
bust of his image went to like he had to
go to all these places to find like the perfect
glasses because he wore like those.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Oh wasn't it the glasses that did it too? Yes,
I remember this one. Yeah, there you go. It was
like the glasses.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Like he spent a lot of time figuring out the glasses.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Glasses. What kind of glasses would a killer wear? You
found him?
Speaker 1 (26:49):
It was those seventies style.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Right, But he had it.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
He looked at his personality and looked at everything and
figured out what kind of glasses he would have.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, and he found the exact ones that he wanted
and he put them on the bust. And then that
bust with the glasses was featured on America's Most Wanted.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah. And then someone was like, my neighbor has those glasses.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yes, it wasn't just the glasses. Well, a neighbor recognized
him and reported him to authorities, and he was arrested
on June first of nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
And he had those glasses, he did, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
He did so. According to the La Times Archives, his wife,
Delores Clark, this is his you know, his new his
new wife, his new his new life. Although he future
he should have this is where he messed up. He
should have not continued to wear the same glasses, because
then he wouldn't have been recognized.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Family.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I know, I'm saying. I'm saying he evaded capture for
eighteen years, and then the reason that the neighbor recognized
them is because he continued to wear those same seventies
style glasses. So anyway, according to the La Times Archives,
his wife, Delores Clark, said that she was making her
statement reluctantly and that she would have no further comment.
(27:59):
She said she was shocked to hear about Bob's arrest
and what he was charged with. This is not the
man I know. The man I know is kind, loving,
a devoted husband, and a dear friend. He is a quiet,
yet friendly man who loves his work and the people
he works.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Family man.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, he goes to church and you know all the things.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
His glasses and everything. He couldn't be a killer.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
One friend, unidentified by the newspaper said that John had
told Dolores he had been married before to an alcoholic
who had died of cancer. He told her she went
through a slow, agonizing death. So this is what he
told the new wife.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
She died in the ballroom in the house burned down.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
Yeah, and what and he forgot to mention his mother,
his kids, and his three children.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, had a great last football game. No soccer, soccer,
soccer before family.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
This is either the most unbelievable mix up or he
is the biggest con man who ever walked the Earth.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Scenario.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yes, this was another unidentified friend who was interviewed, who
told the paper in nineteen ninety he goes to trial.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Wait, where's the forensics is it?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
That's the bus that was it was the bust. It
that was the forensics. Yeah, well in the nineties, this
is you know, this is forensic finance, right, so that
was the forensics. I mean, this is forensics covers a lot,
but it's not just DNA. So the forensics was the
ability to make the bust and age progress it to
(29:37):
look like what he would look like twenty years later,
and to find the glasses that he would be wearing
and to I think they even said he was probably
working as an accountant or something because he has a
finance background, and so you know, they were putting all
that together. At trial, the defense argued that Liszt suffered
from PTSD and psychological issues.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Please bear be grief through this struggling time where my
family is dead prosecutors.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Privacy prosecutors emphasized that the murders were planned and deliberate.
How do you know, I mean.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
It doesn't take a rocket science to figure that one out, right, I.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Mean, talk about this may have planned more than a
lot of people we talk about. I mean he had,
he had all planned out who he was killing, who,
the order he killed them in, placing them in the ballroom,
turning the air conditioning.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
On, shopping the family photos, well, photoshop, seventies photoshoppers, parisisss.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
That's how you photoshopped in the seventies. That's how you
photoshopped up until you know I used to photoshop in yearbooks.
Is you just took a black marker and you.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Just that's how you unfriended something?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, you just you just blo Yes?
Speaker 2 (30:47):
How many?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
How many of your high school classmates have crossed out
your photo in their years?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
I don't know. Should we take a poll if there's
anyone out there listening from Madison.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
High School class ninety nine, class.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
In ninety nine?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yea, how many people were in your class? Oh?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I thought you might have graduated in ninety one. I
graduated in ninety four, and there were ninety nine people
in my graduating class. Yes, what do you think? Ninety
eight of them have crossed me out of the yearbooks
so far. Thank you, Yes, I do. Wow. I was
popular in high school.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
They you were popular in nice Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I don't know about now, but I was then, all right.
The jury found him guilty of all charges, and John
Lyss was sent to five life terms in prison. Obviously,
he got a life term for every one of his victims.
In later interviews, John Lyss said that he believed killing
his family ensured their place in heaven. That was so
(31:46):
nice of him.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Oh yeah, very good. He wasn't worried about himself.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
No, no, he was the victim in all of this,
and he was ensuring that.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
He was doing the hard work.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
He was. He was making sure that his family was
going to make it to heaven, and that was very
kind of him. He also said that he did not
take his own life because he believed it would prevent
his own salvation. See that is the most backwards thinking.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Well, it's not he's just saying a bunch of he's
spewing a bunch of crap.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
He's just saying whatever, right, because.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
He's saying suicide is bad. So I didn't take my
own life because my then I won't be saved. Right.
He's saying suicide is not going to get him into heaven.
But he did like this kind act by killing his
whole family because then they could enter the.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
It's not the case, clearly, it's I wanted to keep living,
so I didn't kill myself, and.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I wanted to get married again, and now I have.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
To explain it. So then he came up with some
stupid explanation.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
A John List died of complications from devon. Yeah, he's dead.
He died in prison in two thousand.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
And eight at the age of eighty two, so he's
in prison for what twenty years?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
He went to prison in nineteen ninety yeah, and then
he died in eighteen year. Yeah, he was in prison
for eighteen years. So I guess there was some justice.
Thank you guys for listening to till death do us Part.
That was the case of John List and the murder
of his family, And of course that is our PSA
(33:17):
to our listeners. Divorce is always the better option. Who
cares what society will say. You don't have to post
it on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Because what's society saying about him? Once he got arrested.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
What a psychopath? Yeah, exactly, all right, thank you for listening.
Till Death Do Us Part. You can find all of
our episodes on the legally Brunette feed. Please be sure
to follow legally Brunette and leave us a review. We
love to read them. Also, be sure to tell your
friends and family about Legally Brunette. Also, if you have
any cases, especially husband and wife type cases that would
(33:49):
be good for Till Death Do Us Part. I love
your recommendations, so please feel free to reach out and
let me know what cases you want to hear about. Also,
let me know if you watch Forensic File and let
me know if you would be interested in a Forensic
Files recap. So I think that would be fun, but
I would love to hear your thoughts on that as well.
And just a reminder that all of our episodes are
(34:10):
on the legally Brunette feed. However, there are some episodes
into Tease, but in order to access all of them,
you need to access them from our own feed. So
thank you guys for listening. We appreciate you so much
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