April 12, 2026 • 30 mins
The developing story surrounding the rape allegations from a former staffer of Congressman Eric Swalwell have sparked multiple conversations. Calls to believe all women, to stand with accusers are necessary and important, but can we have a conversation with our daughters and the young women in our lives about decisions they make that can lead to unintended consequences?
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hither, folks.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
It is Sunday, April twelfth, and we are going to
have this conversation as delicately and respectfully, but Robes, it
might need to happen frankly as possible as we welcome
you to this episode.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Of Amy and TJ with so many.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Thoughts in conversations around Eric Swalwell, the California gubernatorial candidate
who's now been accused of rape Robes. There are conversations
that happen in some circles of the Internet and some
homes privately, and these are difficult to have because anytimes
you have them, it seems like you're questioning the story
of the survivor.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
If you at.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
All examine that survivor's behavior, can you how do you?
And this is what we're trying to do here on
this episode, have that conversation Robes. And it's a tough
one to happen these cases.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
It's really hard because I think most women understand the
vulnerability just physically of who we are and when we
go out that we are potentially targets. And I think
at least most mothers talk to their daughters, maybe fathers
talk to their daughters as well about this. I imagine,
But it's a conversation I've certainly had with mine after
(01:16):
my own personal experiences. I think sometimes they're hard earned experiences,
but I have had conversations about them taking responsibility for
their behavior to not put themselves in a position to
become victimized.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Okay, so there that can be controversial.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Okay, wait a second, So did you use the word responsibility?
I think that's where exactly.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Okay, maybe that's a bad word to use.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Now that's my question.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Does a woman ever, and we're just going to speak
women here when we talk about sexual assaults, is a
woman ever? Can you ever have a conversation about responsibility?
Because suggesting that a woman takes any responsibility for her
actions or her behavior seems to be a suggestion, whether
intention or not, that she is in some way contributing
(02:08):
to what happened to her.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Correct Because look, the reason why there's a lot of
reasons why it's such a touchy subject because just because
you want to dress a certain way or act a
certain way, that doesn't mean you're inviting sexual assault.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
That does all agreement on that, right, But I.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Do think somehow there's this suggestion that it does.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
And let's just make that very clear that that is
not at all. As a and as a woman myself
who has had to deal with this and then talk
to her daughters about it, I understand that's important to
make that distinction, that that is not the responsibility of
a woman to dress a certain way or to act
a certain way.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Inviting.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Yeah, inviting, because no woman wants to be.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
No woman wants to be raped, No woman wants to
be sexually assaulted. No woman wants it to go that far.
And you know what, we can be teases if we want,
and we can be playful andatious if we want, And
that doesn't mean we want to have sex with you.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Man.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
That should be repeated and said as many times. It
doesn't matter even if you don't like that she's being
a tease, even it doesn't matter how far she might
have suggested whatever.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
And we might think we want to have sex with
you and then change our minds and say, you know what,
I actually don't want to have sex with him.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Okay, So now we're talking about robes something else in
this case in particular, there are details to this case,
and again we're talking about the young lady, former staffer
who says that Eric Swalwell raped her in an incident
in twenty twenty four at a hotel here in Manhattan.
She says Robes that she can't remember much of what
happened that night, but she has flashes, is how she
(03:40):
put it. She remembers telling him no. She remembers trying
to push him off. There was another incident Robes helped
me in.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
The years nineteen.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
That was one where she says she doesn't remember anything
from that night, but described another night of heavy drinking,
woke up naked with him in his bedroom, in his
hotel room. She says she can't remember any thing from
how she got from the bar to the moment she
woke up the next morning.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
But when she woke up, she said she felt the
effects of vaginal intercourse, so she knew she had sex.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Women know when they've had sex.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
So these are the two incidents in particular here that
we're going to talk about, and Robes there, we don't
want to look at this and examine this is what
she should have done that night, not suggesting that would
never suggest no matter how much she drank, she is
not responsible for anyone forcing themselves on her at all.
Quite frankly, though the law might see it differently. So
(04:33):
we don't want to go after and say this is
what she should have done. But robes you have, I
wanted one of them in particular. You got a nineteen
year old daughter in college, and really you have a
twenty two to twenty three year old was she twenty
three now twenty three? But she is also right in
that lane of influence and wanting to climb an industry
where sometimes ugly stuff.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yes, she wants to be she wants to be an actress.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
So yes, that is the classic position where you find
yourself in a hungry, youthful, exciting time, but you're desperate
to get a break, You're desperate to get a foot
in the door. And you know, I was having a
conversation with her this weekend about what to anticipate or
(05:20):
expect with certain meetings with people who are reaching out
to her, who are in a much higher position of
power with ties to storied, legacied families, and I have
cautioned her and talked to her about her behavior. Yes,
because you don't ever want it to be misinterpreted, and
you have to as a woman. I'm sorry, but this
(05:40):
I know we don't want to put the onus on
our daughters or on our young girls. But I don't
want to think of it as a responsibility or an onus,
but as an empowerment to recognize, to anticipate that this
could happen, maybe even as likely to happen, And how
you act and how you hold yourself and the boundaries
that you have to create can be the difference between
becoming a victim and being in a different or being
(06:06):
looked at in a different light. It's so tough to say,
but as a young woman coming up in an industry
that also has been known to prey on young women
who are excited and wanting to get far and are
looking for that leg up and I hate to use
that term, but looking for a way to climb the
mountain right.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
And I don't know if any woman who wants to
sleep her way at the top, or who wants to
give a guy a blowjob to get a raise. No,
no woman wants to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
And yet somehow it's always kind of said like women
are doing this to get ahead. It's about I think,
having conversations with ourselves and with our daughters and with
young women in our lives about how to anticipate and
how to avoid a situation even getting to this point.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And we have a situation here, or at least a
couple that, no matter what, you would not want your
child in the position that this young lady found herself
in robes on two occasions. Let's go with the twenty
nineteen incident. Okay, she found herself in a position where
(07:07):
she is out drinking one on one as a twenty
one year old correct with her boss, who is a
powerful US congressman, the two of them out drinking heavily
at night at a bar, just the two of them, rogues,
We're supposed to be able to say that neither one
of these folks in that moment, as colleagues, we're doing
(07:32):
anything wrong. A boss should be able to go out
with a coworker and there not be a problem.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I'm going to get into the details and the new ones,
but on its face, that's supposed to be okay.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
You said, colleagues, And I'll take issue with that because
I actually think you've got a junior staffer twenty one.
I mean, she's still in college if she's at twenty one,
and what is he in his late thirties.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
At that point, I said, I was going to get
into that. I don't do that yet, Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
But I'm saying, generally speaking, a boss going out for
a drink with an employee, okay, for whatever reason, it
shouldn't be a drink, okay, even drinking. And I know
you and I have both sat up with a boss
before and had drinks, several of them, and I know
the dynamic was different because I am the male employee
(08:27):
with a male boss, your female employee with a female boss.
I know from a distance it looks different, but on
the face of it it should be.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I will tell you I have gone out to dinner
with I have gone drinking with bosses who are much
older than me. But I knew I was on guard
the entire time as a woman.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I was.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'm saying, I'm trying to get a baseline here. It
should be okay, yes, okay. Now for folks who want
to make the argument it was there's a night out, okay, Rodes.
It does make a difference, and who the boss is,
the age of the boss, the age of the employee,
and how and how far down the ladder that employee is.
All these things have to be factored in. And with that, now, robes.
(09:07):
If your daughter's just saying a boss invited me out
for a drink, think I'm gonna go. And that boss
of hers is thirty eight and married and she's twenty three.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Now tell me what you're going to say to your time.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Oh, I've already had this conversation with her, because I
have found myself in these positions over the years, and I.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Have told them. Go in with suspicion.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Don't assume he's there to tell you what a great
coworker you are, or what a great employee you are,
or how he wants to give you a raise, or
he wants to connect you to help you in your career.
And I'm sure he might say all of those things.
You have to have in your back of your mind.
And this may be terrible that he has other ideas,
that he has another thought in his head, and it
(09:49):
might be to get you to sleep with him, and
you have to have that in the back of your
head the entire time, and you have to shoot it down.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Do not flirt back.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
You can be kind, you can be playful whatever to
an extent, but you have to recognize that you unfortunately,
are the one who is going to have to create
a boundary, and you have to be prepared to do
it and practice the language before you go out.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
And you should never and something you say that, and
I'm going to say this repeatedly, folks to the point
y'all might get annoyed. This conversation is not a suggestion
about the veracity of anything that this woman is alleging
against Eric Swollwell, not at all. We're not questioning her story.
But there are so many details of the story that
certainly you, as a mom of girls who are right
in that lane, we had very animated discussion is about
(10:31):
here in this house. So we were trying to bring
that discussion forward here. But Robes, another part of what
you suggest. You said you got to make sure you
never give any opening that it's welcome any message that's
sent that's a little flirty. Don't sit there's a way
you can. And again Robes, you say, well, no, excuse me.
(10:52):
This is the problem with that, right, There is such
a power imbalance, So if a flirty message comes back,
you might not feel comfortable just ignoring it.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Oh oh god, he's going to get mad at me.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yes, and here's the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I will say this someone like I don't know obviously
what happened between Eric Swellwell Swaalwell and his.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Former staffer, but I can say that it can and
she describes it.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I mean, I have the language that she used to
see an n It feels good when someone powerful and
someone who you aspire to be like or a position
you'd like to have one day, shines a light on you,
makes you feel special, makes you feel golden, makes you
feel like you're something to him, And that's how they
get sucked in. So the whole point is I try
(11:38):
to tell my daughters that is called grooming, that is
called manipulation, and you have to recognize it when it's happening.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Hey, reckon, but you all are in a like you said, robe,
you all in a difficult position, and this is where
and we weren't going to talk about this issue. The
other incident a previous incident in which she was driving
him to an event. This was in tween nineteen as well.
He pulls over to her, or has her pull over
to a parking lot, just whips it out and asks
for oral sex. And she said she complied for a
(12:06):
short time before then saying, ooh, somebody's going to see us.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Okay, I feel for her.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
I feel for her in that mom Well, robes.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
A, what do you tell your daughter? This is for
anybody else.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Some people hearing this on the outside hear that and go,
obviously you say, hell no, you jump out the car,
you run, you report him. Obviously you don't do like
it seems to other folks that there was a no brainer,
easy way. Of course you don't do that. But Rose,
this is where the power imbalance come Esin's.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
That's my point.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
It's so easy to say that from the outside looking in,
but here you are.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
You're looking up to this guy.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
You don't want to lose your job, and you don't
want to make an enemy out of a powerful congressman.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
And so you think, oh no, what do I do?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And I can see where she felt pressured and found
a way to get out of it. To stop it,
I would and this probably isn't great advice, but I
would have probably dealt with humor, like I know you're kidding,
that's hilarious, and kind of just give him an out
like that's funny. Obviously you're married, and obviously i'm your
junior staffer. So I know you're just playing around and
you give him an out.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Okay, it's terrible, but that is what I probably would
have done.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
No, I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
This.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
We don't know what led up to that.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
We don't, but Robes, getting to that point it was there.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Don't excuse me, We don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
But this is where it comes into play that he
was in some level comfortable enough yeah with this was
a perfect stranger to him, and he just decides to
do this. And this is where Robes, we don't know
what the relationship was beforehand, but as we talk about
this story, Robes, that was one detail that really just
randomly out of nowhere.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Well.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I think she described and talked about the flirty messages
how it was. It was never necessarily sexual in nature,
but when you get flirtier and flirtier and flirtier.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
This is a slow build and it probably led to.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
That moment and she probably thought, oh, no, what have
I done? Or you know, we don't know what she
was thinking.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Let's turn quickly to twenty twenty four and we have
to be this is all right. The twenty twenty four incident,
she reaches out to him So now at this point, Robes,
there is no longer a power imbalance.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
She's not working for him.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
They haven't had a relationship or continued a relationship or
working one for years. And by all the accounts, Robe,
you tell me if I'm wrong, they weren't in constant contact,
they weren't still in each other's lives in any ways.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
It seemed as though they kept messaging, like there was
a little bit of a communication back and forth. But correct,
she was not working for him, and it wasn't like
they were constantly texting each other and they were in
each other's lives in that way.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Not that from what I understand.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
So I'm not to question her.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
But the fact is that she is reporting that she
was she believe you sexually assaulted by him. In twenty nineteen,
five years later, Robes unsolicited, he is speaking here in
New York and she reaches out to him to have
drinks that night. Correct, this is the guy that she
says sexually assaulted her.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
After a heavy night of drinking.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And then she calls him up for a heavy night
of drinking. No ropes, not getting into the psychology of
survivors and these things that other let other folks do that.
But as you're telling your daughters what to do and
what not to do, ropes, take out the twenty nineteen incident,
even the accident, the idea that she's calling him up
(15:26):
after the whatever history they've had to still married man,
come out for drinks. He's wrong. Let's say that out loud.
I'm asking what you would tell your daughters to do,
to not do that.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
To not call a man who already, according to you,
abused his power and put you in a horrific position
and victimized you and raped you. If she didn't give consent,
that is rape as well. So yes, to reach then
out to him. Look and people will tell you the
psychology behind it. Maybe she felt rejected, Maybe she felt ashamed.
(16:02):
Maybe she felt like if she could have an another
encounter with him, it could balance.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Out the bad.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Like there's a lot of things that could go into
her mind where she's thinking, well, maybe if I can
just make it all good and all right, I won't
feel so awful about what happened, and I can actually
like wrap this up with a bow and feel okay
about everything.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
That could have been her mind.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Sight She did tell CNN, and this is her quote,
I guess I liked the attention. When they asked about
why she would go out to drinks with him after
all of these allegations she's made against him, and she said,
I guess I liked the attention, but I never wanted
to sleep with him.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Okay, nothing she has done that we have discussed means
she asked for contributed to in any way what allegedly
happened to her.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
That is not the suggestion at all robes.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
But unfortunately, when she says basically the night ended with
her not remembering how she left the bar.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Look, I have heard my daughter say it. I have
had the experience before.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
When you get that intoxicated, that is the scariest thing
a woman could possibly ever do. And I hate to say,
do it to herself. And I know sometimes it sneaks
up on you and sometimes you're plied with drinks. So hey,
let's do a shot. And I'm saying, you can be encouraged.
But that is my number one thing to my daughter. Well,
there's two things. Never ever ever be alone. Like I
would have said, bring a girlfriend with you if you
(17:15):
want to, if you want to try to find some closure,
or you want to have a conversation with him. Bring
a friend with you, like always have someone with you.
Number one and number two. You cannot drink that much.
You have to be aware, especially if you're with someone
who you've had a negative experience with.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Please, my God, stay in control of your faculties.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
So Robes to your point, now, no matter how drunk
she got, you don't deserve to be raped. No matter
how drunk you decide to get. Nobody around you is
then should be forgiven for anything ropes.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
You increase your chances of it happening.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We'll give you that, But it doesn't mean you're responsible
for what happened to you? Is what the is? The argument?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
You can't, I guess it's responsible. It's such a tricky thing.
What responsibility do you take for putting yourself in the
position versus being responsible for what happened to you? You
are not nobody, No one is responsible. Like you can
never say she got raped, well, but she was drinking
that much.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So that is what.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Happens in court.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
And that's why women don't come forward because they know
that they they behaved in a way that contributed to
the position that they found themselves in that they didn't
want to be in that they didn't deserve to be.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Say all that again, Please, I don't know if I can.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You said it just right, that was exactly right. Damn it.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I don't have to go back and really you said
it exactly the way. It is about the responsibility. But
it's not just folks, how we might have the conversation
is not just about what her friends might think, what
the public might think. There's a legal reason that a
lot of women might not come forward because the law,
at least in New York State, has a loophole that suggests,
(18:59):
if you got drunk voluntarily what happened to you, we
can't charge the other guy for we'll explain this loophole
and why they're trying to fix it, and why the
Manhattan DA might have a very difficult time bringing charges
against Eric Swollwell, all right, continuing here on Amy and TJ. Road,
(19:30):
this conversation all goes down to consent. Right, did you
did she give consent for sex or not? We do
know rogues you don't sex or consent sometimes can be
denied like, well she didn't say no, Well doesn't mean
she didn't. Doesn't mean she said yes, So consent isn't
just a matter sometimes of a woman saying no. It
(19:53):
could be an implied insent, It could be all kinds
of other things, So we can't even harp on that
did she say no or not.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
On college campuses, you have people sometimes actually saying you
need to get a yes before, and it kind of
people kind of make a joke out of it, but
they really are trying to just hammer it home because
a lot of times what we're talking about does happen
on college campuses or drunk nights, blackout drunk nights where
you know kids are drinking to get wasted, and so yes, Unfortunately,
these types of incidents can happen, and again very different
(20:22):
because it's very different power structure here when you're talking
about two kids who are both twenty two years old
in an experience, but yet you still have some of
the same issues whether or not a girl was able
or a young woman was able to give consent, And
does that mean that the young man in that kind
of a situation, who might have been equally drunk, Where
(20:42):
is his responsibility?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Where is her responsibility?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
This is a This type of crime is one of
the most difficult to prosecute, one of the most difficult
to prove, because it truly is a he said, she said,
And if both parties are wasted, what do you do
with that?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And the laws are different in different place. This will
stick with New York. Robes in particular, consent consent. This
bulls down to consent. If she did not give consent
and he moved forward, that is a rate by law. However,
who can or cannot give consent? Who can't Robes, anybody
under seventeen? That makes sense the law here. Anybody who's
mentally disabled, that makes sense. Also, who can't give consent?
(21:21):
Anyone who is mentally incapacitated or physically helpless?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Here?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
You go, Robes, And this is where the issue is.
Mentally incapacitated, according to New York law, means that a
person is rendered temporarily incapable of appraising or controlling his
or her conduct owing to the influence of a narcotic
or intoxicating substance administered to him or her without his
(21:49):
or her consent.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
So that's being drugged, having something slipped into your drink,
that sort of situation.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Robes, they call this the voluntary intoxication exclusion. They call
it a pole, and it's the suggestion. And this is
why some prosecutors won't even bring a case forward. You
voluntarily got messed up. Nobody made you drink that stuff.
You kept ordering those drinks on your own. You are
responsible for your behavior. So now you want to tell
(22:18):
me that this guy that you woke up in bed
with you that you can't really remember what happened. You
want to us to prosecute and put him in jail,
And we're not going to even bring the case because
you voluntarily got that drunk. They have been fighting Robes
for years to change his root loophole in the New
York state legislature. It has been going through the past
(22:40):
couple of years and it is stuck in committee right
now and has not come out.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
And I can see why with that law. And I
believe that her first.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Allegation of rape happened in California or not in New York, correct,
But this second incident in New York so interesting.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
So you hear that loophole, which I was not even
aware of.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
But when you have her or waking up with flashes
remembering she says pushing him off her and saying no,
and he didn't stop That may be what the Manhattan DA.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Is focusing on.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
So, yes, she was wasted by her own voluntary choice.
She chose to drink, She chose to go to a
second bar and to heavily drink, And she admits to
all of that.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
She doesn't remember leaving the bar. She doesn't remember how
she got into the hotel room. But she woke up
in those moments, probably of pain and confusion and what
the hell is happening, And she remembered pushing him off.
She remembered telling him to stop. She remembered telling him no.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
That may be that is perhaps what distinguishes this case
from maybe the twenty nineteen case or any other incident
she describes, because she says she does remember telling him
to stop.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Okay, The other part of that is physically helpless. That
means a person is unconscious or for any other reason,
is physically unable to communicate unwillingness to enact. There's a
high bar here for this, and there's a reason for it.
This is now not just that he said she said.
This is he said, and she said just a little
(24:10):
bit of what she can remember that is not a
whole lot. I saw a flash, I and she's standing by.
She said no, and remember some something physical from him.
She said she even had a bruise or something. He
had grabbed her by the waist or she has.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
That she had bruises on her body and was bleeding vaginally.
That that's how I guess rough the sex was. I mean,
that's that's that's tough. However you imagine say the DA
brings this charge, right, say this ends up going to
a jury. You start looking at all the events, and
this is the tough situation for a lot of women.
This is why a lot of women don't come forward
(24:48):
because when you start looking at what happened beforehand, and
I felt I actually was really impressed that she was
completely honest and talked about how she was blackout drunk,
talked about that she did yes, start to to give
slowwell oral sex like she is admitting to her role,
(25:08):
flirtatious texts and sending him nude pictures back and forth
on Snapchat. She claims she sent him nudes, he sent
her pictures of his penis. So she was participating in
a lot of behavior that probably would not look good
to a jury when it comes to them saying yes
she was raped. Now, you can do all of those things,
(25:29):
as I pointed out, and I fully acknowledge, yes, we
should be able to flirt and maybe even think about
wanting to have sex with someone, or consider, hey, maybe
I would like to be his mistress.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
I don't know what was going in her mind.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Maybe she had some of those thoughts, or maybe she
just damn well loved the attention, which she admitted that
that just felt so good.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
She didn't want to have sex with him.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
She liked the flirtation, she liked that feeling of this
powerful man thinking she was hot. I get all of that.
It doesn't mean she deserved to be raped. It doesn't
mean that she should have to have sex with him.
It doesn't mean any of those things. However, my point is,
when I talk to my daughters, it is about empowerment.
It is about making sure you recognize that this could
happen to you. And it's not that it should happen
(26:10):
to you, or that you deserved for it to happen
to you, but that it could. And when it does,
you get put in a position that is untenable, and
now you have to ask yourself.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
And that's my point.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
What can I tell my daughters about how to avoid this,
how to give themselves the best chance of never finding
themselves in this position. That's the conversations that I'm having
that I have had with my daughters for years now.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It is you don't want to be in there, he said,
She said, you don't want to end up there and robes.
I don't know if this will maybe this bill now,
I'm sure I haven't seen yet, but I'm sure they
are going to try to bring this back up. The
sponsor is this bill now, because this is meant to
do that thing. They actually are saying that they want
this to prohibit because defendants have been using intoxication of
(26:56):
the victim as a defense in sex crimes, and it's worked,
and the law right.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Now allows it.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
It supports that because it asks about conduct like you're
incapable of giving a praising a situation and controlling your conduct.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
That could mean a yes or no.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
And the other point being, and we've talked about this,
and I am not applying this to Eric Slowell Swallwell
at all, but when the attacker or the person who
is being accused of raping, if he is just as
wasted as she is, where is the culpability and that
is the gray area that so many courtrooms and so
(27:32):
many prosecutors have to weigh and deal with and think about.
And that's why this type of violent act is the
most difficult to prosecute.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
It.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
It's awful, but it's an opportunity that we should have
a moment while a conversation is being had. Now, just look,
the criminal stuff will play out, the political stuff will
play out, but there's an opportunity here for just to
take a moment and sit down and have a calm
and with.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Your sons too. This isn't a conversation just to have
with your daughters. This is it maybe an even more
important one. I feel bad that that's just now being mentioned,
but yes, it's a very important conversation to how with
your sons as well.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Rogues don't end up in this well, you could end
up in a bad spot as a male, as a
guy as well. Someone who hasn't done anything necessarily wrong
or had the intention of doing something wrong that is
interpreted by somebody from a distance as being something wrong.
Just don't do this. Oh my god, you've seen me.
Even when the folks deliver food to the uh to
(28:27):
my hotel room room service. I stand at the door
holding the door, and they say, oh, I got it. Nope,
I'm standing right. I never close a door, and I'm
alone with anybody who could possibly suggest anything.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
And that, he says, she said, isn't that crazy?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Yes, I would never think about that.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
You wouldn't know. You've seen me do this where I
will not. I get room service and I stand at
that door propping it open. Go ahead, put the food
wherever you want to in the room. But I am
not going to be in a position where I am
behind a closed door with somebody I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Great, this is the stuff we have to think about.
Is that crazy?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
No, But we should tell our sons that you should
tell your daughters that it's okay. But man, you don't
want to end up in a position that either one
of these folks who right wrong. We don't want to
do it right and wrong. He should have and she
should have. We don't want. But both of them could
have done something different to where this story didn't happen.
(29:24):
Who do you want to say, is more culpable him
for pulling his dick out on the side of the road.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Yes, Yes, because a hundred because he was her boss.
She is and he's married with three kids.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yes, nothing, he period, no question, point blank done.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Done.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
But I also and you could have also advised your
daughters about something to where if the guy you did
work for sent this message or did pull his dick out.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Yeah, unfortunately, we have to assume the worst.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I have to have that conversation.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
As women, I have learned this, and you just you
have to assume the worst. It's so strange. I was
having this very conversation with Ava this weekend and not
even because of this, and it's something you know that.
I just think it's an important conversation that we all
need to have with our kids.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
That's funny you were having it before this even came up,
just so happened to be having it. Well, folks, we
always appreciate you spending some time with us. We're keeping
a close eye on this Swallowell story. Also, be honest,
Robes was like, hey, we better, we better get this
one up early because the story is moving so quickly
that there could be an update and we have to change.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Well. Yeah, we have the Manhattan DA asking for other
victims to come forward, so who.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Knows how this is headed.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
All right, but we always appreciate you spending some time
with us wherever you might be on this Sunday. Hope
you are enjoying yourself and having a good day, but
thanks for spending some time with us on TJ, that's
Robot Talks.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Hi
Hither, folks.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
It is Sunday, April twelfth, and we are going to
have this conversation as delicately and respectfully, but Robes, it
might need to happen frankly as possible as we welcome
you to this episode.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Of Amy and TJ with so many.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Thoughts in conversations around Eric Swalwell, the California gubernatorial candidate
who's now been accused of rape Robes. There are conversations
that happen in some circles of the Internet and some
homes privately, and these are difficult to have because anytimes
you have them, it seems like you're questioning the story
of the survivor.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
If you at.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
All examine that survivor's behavior, can you how do you?
And this is what we're trying to do here on
this episode, have that conversation Robes. And it's a tough
one to happen these cases.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
It's really hard because I think most women understand the
vulnerability just physically of who we are and when we
go out that we are potentially targets. And I think
at least most mothers talk to their daughters, maybe fathers
talk to their daughters as well about this. I imagine,
But it's a conversation I've certainly had with mine after
(01:16):
my own personal experiences. I think sometimes they're hard earned experiences,
but I have had conversations about them taking responsibility for
their behavior to not put themselves in a position to
become victimized.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Okay, so there that can be controversial.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Okay, wait a second, So did you use the word responsibility?
I think that's where exactly.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Okay, maybe that's a bad word to use.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Now that's my question.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Does a woman ever, and we're just going to speak
women here when we talk about sexual assaults, is a
woman ever? Can you ever have a conversation about responsibility?
Because suggesting that a woman takes any responsibility for her
actions or her behavior seems to be a suggestion, whether
intention or not, that she is in some way contributing
(02:08):
to what happened to her.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Correct Because look, the reason why there's a lot of
reasons why it's such a touchy subject because just because
you want to dress a certain way or act a
certain way, that doesn't mean you're inviting sexual assault.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
That does all agreement on that, right, But I.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Do think somehow there's this suggestion that it does.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
And let's just make that very clear that that is
not at all. As a and as a woman myself
who has had to deal with this and then talk
to her daughters about it, I understand that's important to
make that distinction, that that is not the responsibility of
a woman to dress a certain way or to act
a certain way.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Inviting.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Yeah, inviting, because no woman wants to be.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
No woman wants to be raped, No woman wants to
be sexually assaulted. No woman wants it to go that far.
And you know what, we can be teases if we want,
and we can be playful andatious if we want, And
that doesn't mean we want to have sex with you.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Man.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
That should be repeated and said as many times. It
doesn't matter even if you don't like that she's being
a tease, even it doesn't matter how far she might
have suggested whatever.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
And we might think we want to have sex with
you and then change our minds and say, you know what,
I actually don't want to have sex with him.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Okay, So now we're talking about robes something else in
this case in particular, there are details to this case,
and again we're talking about the young lady, former staffer
who says that Eric Swalwell raped her in an incident
in twenty twenty four at a hotel here in Manhattan.
She says Robes that she can't remember much of what
happened that night, but she has flashes, is how she
(03:40):
put it. She remembers telling him no. She remembers trying
to push him off. There was another incident Robes helped
me in.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
The years nineteen.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
That was one where she says she doesn't remember anything
from that night, but described another night of heavy drinking,
woke up naked with him in his bedroom, in his
hotel room. She says she can't remember any thing from
how she got from the bar to the moment she
woke up the next morning.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
But when she woke up, she said she felt the
effects of vaginal intercourse, so she knew she had sex.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Women know when they've had sex.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
So these are the two incidents in particular here that
we're going to talk about, and Robes there, we don't
want to look at this and examine this is what
she should have done that night, not suggesting that would
never suggest no matter how much she drank, she is
not responsible for anyone forcing themselves on her at all.
Quite frankly, though the law might see it differently. So
(04:33):
we don't want to go after and say this is
what she should have done. But robes you have, I
wanted one of them in particular. You got a nineteen
year old daughter in college, and really you have a
twenty two to twenty three year old was she twenty
three now twenty three? But she is also right in
that lane of influence and wanting to climb an industry
where sometimes ugly stuff.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yes, she wants to be she wants to be an actress.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
So yes, that is the classic position where you find
yourself in a hungry, youthful, exciting time, but you're desperate
to get a break, You're desperate to get a foot
in the door. And you know, I was having a
conversation with her this weekend about what to anticipate or
(05:20):
expect with certain meetings with people who are reaching out
to her, who are in a much higher position of
power with ties to storied, legacied families, and I have
cautioned her and talked to her about her behavior. Yes,
because you don't ever want it to be misinterpreted, and
you have to as a woman. I'm sorry, but this
(05:40):
I know we don't want to put the onus on
our daughters or on our young girls. But I don't
want to think of it as a responsibility or an onus,
but as an empowerment to recognize, to anticipate that this
could happen, maybe even as likely to happen, And how
you act and how you hold yourself and the boundaries
that you have to create can be the difference between
becoming a victim and being in a different or being
(06:06):
looked at in a different light. It's so tough to say,
but as a young woman coming up in an industry
that also has been known to prey on young women
who are excited and wanting to get far and are
looking for that leg up and I hate to use
that term, but looking for a way to climb the
mountain right.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
And I don't know if any woman who wants to
sleep her way at the top, or who wants to
give a guy a blowjob to get a raise. No,
no woman wants to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
And yet somehow it's always kind of said like women
are doing this to get ahead. It's about I think,
having conversations with ourselves and with our daughters and with
young women in our lives about how to anticipate and
how to avoid a situation even getting to this point.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And we have a situation here, or at least a
couple that, no matter what, you would not want your
child in the position that this young lady found herself
in robes on two occasions. Let's go with the twenty
nineteen incident. Okay, she found herself in a position where
(07:07):
she is out drinking one on one as a twenty
one year old correct with her boss, who is a
powerful US congressman, the two of them out drinking heavily
at night at a bar, just the two of them, rogues,
We're supposed to be able to say that neither one
of these folks in that moment, as colleagues, we're doing
(07:32):
anything wrong. A boss should be able to go out
with a coworker and there not be a problem.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I'm going to get into the details and the new ones,
but on its face, that's supposed to be okay.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
You said, colleagues, And I'll take issue with that because
I actually think you've got a junior staffer twenty one.
I mean, she's still in college if she's at twenty one,
and what is he in his late thirties.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
At that point, I said, I was going to get
into that. I don't do that yet, Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
But I'm saying, generally speaking, a boss going out for
a drink with an employee, okay, for whatever reason, it
shouldn't be a drink, okay, even drinking. And I know
you and I have both sat up with a boss
before and had drinks, several of them, and I know
the dynamic was different because I am the male employee
(08:27):
with a male boss, your female employee with a female boss.
I know from a distance it looks different, but on
the face of it it should be.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I will tell you I have gone out to dinner
with I have gone drinking with bosses who are much
older than me. But I knew I was on guard
the entire time as a woman.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I was.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I'm saying, I'm trying to get a baseline here. It
should be okay, yes, okay. Now for folks who want
to make the argument it was there's a night out, okay, Rodes.
It does make a difference, and who the boss is,
the age of the boss, the age of the employee,
and how and how far down the ladder that employee is.
All these things have to be factored in. And with that, now, robes.
(09:07):
If your daughter's just saying a boss invited me out
for a drink, think I'm gonna go. And that boss
of hers is thirty eight and married and she's twenty three.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Now tell me what you're going to say to your time.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Oh, I've already had this conversation with her, because I
have found myself in these positions over the years, and I.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Have told them. Go in with suspicion.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Don't assume he's there to tell you what a great
coworker you are, or what a great employee you are,
or how he wants to give you a raise, or
he wants to connect you to help you in your career.
And I'm sure he might say all of those things.
You have to have in your back of your mind.
And this may be terrible that he has other ideas,
that he has another thought in his head, and it
(09:49):
might be to get you to sleep with him, and
you have to have that in the back of your
head the entire time, and you have to shoot it down.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Do not flirt back.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
You can be kind, you can be playful whatever to
an extent, but you have to recognize that you unfortunately,
are the one who is going to have to create
a boundary, and you have to be prepared to do
it and practice the language before you go out.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
And you should never and something you say that, and
I'm going to say this repeatedly, folks to the point
y'all might get annoyed. This conversation is not a suggestion
about the veracity of anything that this woman is alleging
against Eric Swollwell, not at all. We're not questioning her story.
But there are so many details of the story that
certainly you, as a mom of girls who are right
in that lane, we had very animated discussion is about
(10:31):
here in this house. So we were trying to bring
that discussion forward here. But Robes, another part of what
you suggest. You said you got to make sure you
never give any opening that it's welcome any message that's
sent that's a little flirty. Don't sit there's a way
you can. And again Robes, you say, well, no, excuse me.
(10:52):
This is the problem with that, right, There is such
a power imbalance, So if a flirty message comes back,
you might not feel comfortable just ignoring it.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Oh oh god, he's going to get mad at me.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yes, and here's the problem.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
I will say this someone like I don't know obviously
what happened between Eric Swellwell Swaalwell and his.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Former staffer, but I can say that it can and
she describes it.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I mean, I have the language that she used to
see an n It feels good when someone powerful and
someone who you aspire to be like or a position
you'd like to have one day, shines a light on you,
makes you feel special, makes you feel golden, makes you
feel like you're something to him, And that's how they
get sucked in. So the whole point is I try
(11:38):
to tell my daughters that is called grooming, that is
called manipulation, and you have to recognize it when it's happening.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Hey, reckon, but you all are in a like you said, robe,
you all in a difficult position, and this is where
and we weren't going to talk about this issue. The
other incident a previous incident in which she was driving
him to an event. This was in tween nineteen as well.
He pulls over to her, or has her pull over
to a parking lot, just whips it out and asks
for oral sex. And she said she complied for a
(12:06):
short time before then saying, ooh, somebody's going to see us.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Okay, I feel for her.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
I feel for her in that mom Well, robes.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
A, what do you tell your daughter? This is for
anybody else.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Some people hearing this on the outside hear that and go,
obviously you say, hell no, you jump out the car,
you run, you report him. Obviously you don't do like
it seems to other folks that there was a no brainer,
easy way. Of course you don't do that. But Rose,
this is where the power imbalance come Esin's.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
That's my point.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
It's so easy to say that from the outside looking in,
but here you are.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
You're looking up to this guy.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
You don't want to lose your job, and you don't
want to make an enemy out of a powerful congressman.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
And so you think, oh no, what do I do?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And I can see where she felt pressured and found
a way to get out of it. To stop it,
I would and this probably isn't great advice, but I
would have probably dealt with humor, like I know you're kidding,
that's hilarious, and kind of just give him an out
like that's funny. Obviously you're married, and obviously i'm your
junior staffer. So I know you're just playing around and
you give him an out.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Okay, it's terrible, but that is what I probably would
have done.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
No, I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
This.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
We don't know what led up to that.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
We don't, but Robes, getting to that point it was there.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Don't excuse me, We don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
But this is where it comes into play that he
was in some level comfortable enough yeah with this was
a perfect stranger to him, and he just decides to
do this. And this is where Robes, we don't know
what the relationship was beforehand, but as we talk about
this story, Robes, that was one detail that really just
randomly out of nowhere.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Well.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I think she described and talked about the flirty messages
how it was. It was never necessarily sexual in nature,
but when you get flirtier and flirtier and flirtier.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
This is a slow build and it probably led to.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
That moment and she probably thought, oh, no, what have
I done? Or you know, we don't know what she
was thinking.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Let's turn quickly to twenty twenty four and we have
to be this is all right. The twenty twenty four incident,
she reaches out to him So now at this point, Robes,
there is no longer a power imbalance.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
She's not working for him.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
They haven't had a relationship or continued a relationship or
working one for years. And by all the accounts, Robe,
you tell me if I'm wrong, they weren't in constant contact,
they weren't still in each other's lives in any ways.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
It seemed as though they kept messaging, like there was
a little bit of a communication back and forth. But correct,
she was not working for him, and it wasn't like
they were constantly texting each other and they were in
each other's lives in that way.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Not that from what I understand.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
So I'm not to question her.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
But the fact is that she is reporting that she
was she believe you sexually assaulted by him. In twenty nineteen,
five years later, Robes unsolicited, he is speaking here in
New York and she reaches out to him to have
drinks that night. Correct, this is the guy that she
says sexually assaulted her.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
After a heavy night of drinking.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And then she calls him up for a heavy night
of drinking. No ropes, not getting into the psychology of
survivors and these things that other let other folks do that.
But as you're telling your daughters what to do and
what not to do, ropes, take out the twenty nineteen incident,
even the accident, the idea that she's calling him up
(15:26):
after the whatever history they've had to still married man,
come out for drinks. He's wrong. Let's say that out loud.
I'm asking what you would tell your daughters to do,
to not do that.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
To not call a man who already, according to you,
abused his power and put you in a horrific position
and victimized you and raped you. If she didn't give consent,
that is rape as well. So yes, to reach then
out to him. Look and people will tell you the
psychology behind it. Maybe she felt rejected, Maybe she felt ashamed.
(16:02):
Maybe she felt like if she could have an another
encounter with him, it could balance.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Out the bad.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Like there's a lot of things that could go into
her mind where she's thinking, well, maybe if I can
just make it all good and all right, I won't
feel so awful about what happened, and I can actually
like wrap this up with a bow and feel okay
about everything.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
That could have been her mind.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Sight She did tell CNN, and this is her quote,
I guess I liked the attention. When they asked about
why she would go out to drinks with him after
all of these allegations she's made against him, and she said,
I guess I liked the attention, but I never wanted
to sleep with him.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Okay, nothing she has done that we have discussed means
she asked for contributed to in any way what allegedly
happened to her.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
That is not the suggestion at all robes.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
But unfortunately, when she says basically the night ended with
her not remembering how she left the bar.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Look, I have heard my daughter say it. I have
had the experience before.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
When you get that intoxicated, that is the scariest thing
a woman could possibly ever do. And I hate to say,
do it to herself. And I know sometimes it sneaks
up on you and sometimes you're plied with drinks. So hey,
let's do a shot. And I'm saying, you can be encouraged.
But that is my number one thing to my daughter. Well,
there's two things. Never ever ever be alone. Like I
would have said, bring a girlfriend with you if you
(17:15):
want to, if you want to try to find some closure,
or you want to have a conversation with him. Bring
a friend with you, like always have someone with you.
Number one and number two. You cannot drink that much.
You have to be aware, especially if you're with someone
who you've had a negative experience with.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Please, my God, stay in control of your faculties.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
So Robes to your point, now, no matter how drunk
she got, you don't deserve to be raped. No matter
how drunk you decide to get. Nobody around you is
then should be forgiven for anything ropes.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
You increase your chances of it happening.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We'll give you that, But it doesn't mean you're responsible
for what happened to you? Is what the is? The argument?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
You can't, I guess it's responsible. It's such a tricky thing.
What responsibility do you take for putting yourself in the
position versus being responsible for what happened to you? You
are not nobody, No one is responsible. Like you can
never say she got raped, well, but she was drinking
that much.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So that is what.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Happens in court.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
And that's why women don't come forward because they know
that they they behaved in a way that contributed to
the position that they found themselves in that they didn't
want to be in that they didn't deserve to be.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
Say all that again, Please, I don't know if I can.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You said it just right, that was exactly right. Damn it.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I don't have to go back and really you said
it exactly the way. It is about the responsibility. But
it's not just folks, how we might have the conversation
is not just about what her friends might think, what
the public might think. There's a legal reason that a
lot of women might not come forward because the law,
at least in New York State, has a loophole that suggests,
(18:59):
if you got drunk voluntarily what happened to you, we
can't charge the other guy for we'll explain this loophole
and why they're trying to fix it, and why the
Manhattan DA might have a very difficult time bringing charges
against Eric Swollwell, all right, continuing here on Amy and TJ. Road,
(19:30):
this conversation all goes down to consent. Right, did you
did she give consent for sex or not? We do
know rogues you don't sex or consent sometimes can be
denied like, well she didn't say no, Well doesn't mean
she didn't. Doesn't mean she said yes, So consent isn't
just a matter sometimes of a woman saying no. It
(19:53):
could be an implied insent, It could be all kinds
of other things, So we can't even harp on that
did she say no or not.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
On college campuses, you have people sometimes actually saying you
need to get a yes before, and it kind of
people kind of make a joke out of it, but
they really are trying to just hammer it home because
a lot of times what we're talking about does happen
on college campuses or drunk nights, blackout drunk nights where
you know kids are drinking to get wasted, and so yes, Unfortunately,
these types of incidents can happen, and again very different
(20:22):
because it's very different power structure here when you're talking
about two kids who are both twenty two years old
in an experience, but yet you still have some of
the same issues whether or not a girl was able
or a young woman was able to give consent, And
does that mean that the young man in that kind
of a situation, who might have been equally drunk, Where
(20:42):
is his responsibility?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Where is her responsibility?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
This is a This type of crime is one of
the most difficult to prosecute, one of the most difficult
to prove, because it truly is a he said, she said,
And if both parties are wasted, what do you do
with that?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
And the laws are different in different place. This will
stick with New York. Robes in particular, consent consent. This
bulls down to consent. If she did not give consent
and he moved forward, that is a rate by law. However,
who can or cannot give consent? Who can't Robes, anybody
under seventeen? That makes sense the law here. Anybody who's
mentally disabled, that makes sense. Also, who can't give consent?
(21:21):
Anyone who is mentally incapacitated or physically helpless?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Here?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
You go, Robes, And this is where the issue is.
Mentally incapacitated, according to New York law, means that a
person is rendered temporarily incapable of appraising or controlling his
or her conduct owing to the influence of a narcotic
or intoxicating substance administered to him or her without his
(21:49):
or her consent.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
So that's being drugged, having something slipped into your drink,
that sort of situation.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Robes, they call this the voluntary intoxication exclusion. They call
it a pole, and it's the suggestion. And this is
why some prosecutors won't even bring a case forward. You
voluntarily got messed up. Nobody made you drink that stuff.
You kept ordering those drinks on your own. You are
responsible for your behavior. So now you want to tell
(22:18):
me that this guy that you woke up in bed
with you that you can't really remember what happened. You
want to us to prosecute and put him in jail,
And we're not going to even bring the case because
you voluntarily got that drunk. They have been fighting Robes
for years to change his root loophole in the New
York state legislature. It has been going through the past
(22:40):
couple of years and it is stuck in committee right
now and has not come out.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
And I can see why with that law. And I
believe that her first.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Allegation of rape happened in California or not in New York, correct,
But this second incident in New York so interesting.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
So you hear that loophole, which I was not even
aware of.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
But when you have her or waking up with flashes
remembering she says pushing him off her and saying no,
and he didn't stop That may be what the Manhattan DA.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Is focusing on.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
So, yes, she was wasted by her own voluntary choice.
She chose to drink, She chose to go to a
second bar and to heavily drink, And she admits to
all of that.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
She doesn't remember leaving the bar. She doesn't remember how
she got into the hotel room. But she woke up
in those moments, probably of pain and confusion and what
the hell is happening, And she remembered pushing him off.
She remembered telling him to stop. She remembered telling him no.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
That may be that is perhaps what distinguishes this case
from maybe the twenty nineteen case or any other incident
she describes, because she says she does remember telling him
to stop.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Okay, The other part of that is physically helpless. That
means a person is unconscious or for any other reason,
is physically unable to communicate unwillingness to enact. There's a
high bar here for this, and there's a reason for it.
This is now not just that he said she said.
This is he said, and she said just a little
(24:10):
bit of what she can remember that is not a
whole lot. I saw a flash, I and she's standing by.
She said no, and remember some something physical from him.
She said she even had a bruise or something. He
had grabbed her by the waist or she has.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
That she had bruises on her body and was bleeding vaginally.
That that's how I guess rough the sex was. I mean,
that's that's that's tough. However you imagine say the DA
brings this charge, right, say this ends up going to
a jury. You start looking at all the events, and
this is the tough situation for a lot of women.
This is why a lot of women don't come forward
(24:48):
because when you start looking at what happened beforehand, and
I felt I actually was really impressed that she was
completely honest and talked about how she was blackout drunk,
talked about that she did yes, start to to give
slowwell oral sex like she is admitting to her role,
(25:08):
flirtatious texts and sending him nude pictures back and forth
on Snapchat. She claims she sent him nudes, he sent
her pictures of his penis. So she was participating in
a lot of behavior that probably would not look good
to a jury when it comes to them saying yes
she was raped. Now, you can do all of those things,
(25:29):
as I pointed out, and I fully acknowledge, yes, we
should be able to flirt and maybe even think about
wanting to have sex with someone, or consider, hey, maybe
I would like to be his mistress.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
I don't know what was going in her mind.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Maybe she had some of those thoughts, or maybe she
just damn well loved the attention, which she admitted that
that just felt so good.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
She didn't want to have sex with him.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
She liked the flirtation, she liked that feeling of this
powerful man thinking she was hot. I get all of that.
It doesn't mean she deserved to be raped. It doesn't
mean that she should have to have sex with him.
It doesn't mean any of those things. However, my point is,
when I talk to my daughters, it is about empowerment.
It is about making sure you recognize that this could
happen to you. And it's not that it should happen
(26:10):
to you, or that you deserved for it to happen
to you, but that it could. And when it does,
you get put in a position that is untenable, and
now you have to ask yourself.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
And that's my point.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
What can I tell my daughters about how to avoid this,
how to give themselves the best chance of never finding
themselves in this position. That's the conversations that I'm having
that I have had with my daughters for years now.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It is you don't want to be in there, he said,
She said, you don't want to end up there and robes.
I don't know if this will maybe this bill now,
I'm sure I haven't seen yet, but I'm sure they
are going to try to bring this back up. The
sponsor is this bill now, because this is meant to
do that thing. They actually are saying that they want
this to prohibit because defendants have been using intoxication of
(26:56):
the victim as a defense in sex crimes, and it's worked,
and the law right.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Now allows it.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
It supports that because it asks about conduct like you're
incapable of giving a praising a situation and controlling your conduct.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
That could mean a yes or no.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
And the other point being, and we've talked about this,
and I am not applying this to Eric Slowell Swallwell
at all, but when the attacker or the person who
is being accused of raping, if he is just as
wasted as she is, where is the culpability and that
is the gray area that so many courtrooms and so
(27:32):
many prosecutors have to weigh and deal with and think about.
And that's why this type of violent act is the
most difficult to prosecute.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
It.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
It's awful, but it's an opportunity that we should have
a moment while a conversation is being had. Now, just look,
the criminal stuff will play out, the political stuff will
play out, but there's an opportunity here for just to
take a moment and sit down and have a calm
and with.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Your sons too. This isn't a conversation just to have
with your daughters. This is it maybe an even more
important one. I feel bad that that's just now being mentioned,
but yes, it's a very important conversation to how with
your sons as well.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Rogues don't end up in this well, you could end
up in a bad spot as a male, as a
guy as well. Someone who hasn't done anything necessarily wrong
or had the intention of doing something wrong that is
interpreted by somebody from a distance as being something wrong.
Just don't do this. Oh my god, you've seen me.
Even when the folks deliver food to the uh to
(28:27):
my hotel room room service. I stand at the door
holding the door, and they say, oh, I got it. Nope,
I'm standing right. I never close a door, and I'm
alone with anybody who could possibly suggest anything.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
And that, he says, she said, isn't that crazy?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Yes, I would never think about that.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
You wouldn't know. You've seen me do this where I
will not. I get room service and I stand at
that door propping it open. Go ahead, put the food
wherever you want to in the room. But I am
not going to be in a position where I am
behind a closed door with somebody I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Great, this is the stuff we have to think about.
Is that crazy?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
No, But we should tell our sons that you should
tell your daughters that it's okay. But man, you don't
want to end up in a position that either one
of these folks who right wrong. We don't want to
do it right and wrong. He should have and she
should have. We don't want. But both of them could
have done something different to where this story didn't happen.
(29:24):
Who do you want to say, is more culpable him
for pulling his dick out on the side of the road.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Yes, Yes, because a hundred because he was her boss.
She is and he's married with three kids.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yes, nothing, he period, no question, point blank done.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Done.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
But I also and you could have also advised your
daughters about something to where if the guy you did
work for sent this message or did pull his dick out.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Yeah, unfortunately, we have to assume the worst.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
I have to have that conversation.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
As women, I have learned this, and you just you
have to assume the worst. It's so strange. I was
having this very conversation with Ava this weekend and not
even because of this, and it's something you know that.
I just think it's an important conversation that we all
need to have with our kids.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
That's funny you were having it before this even came up,
just so happened to be having it. Well, folks, we
always appreciate you spending some time with us. We're keeping
a close eye on this Swallowell story. Also, be honest,
Robes was like, hey, we better, we better get this
one up early because the story is moving so quickly
that there could be an update and we have to change.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Well. Yeah, we have the Manhattan DA asking for other
victims to come forward, so who.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Knows how this is headed.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
All right, but we always appreciate you spending some time
with us wherever you might be on this Sunday. Hope
you are enjoying yourself and having a good day, but
thanks for spending some time with us on TJ, that's
Robot Talks.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Hi
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