Welcome to our new Sunday series where we will be talking to religious, faith and spiritual leaders to offer some perspective, insight and inspiration for the start of your week. We’re not married to the title just yet, but we’re working on it! Today we have a fascinating talk with Liz Bucar, a leading expert in religious ethics and a professor of religion at Northeastern University who has spent more than 25 years studying how religion shapes culture, etc, politics, health and every day life.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, there, everybody, and welcome to Amy and TJ. It
is Sunday, July nineteenth, and we are starting something new
and we hope you like it.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
We are starting a Sunday.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Series, a spiritual Sunday series. How about that where we
hope we can give you some insight, some inspiration, some
time to reflect. But we're not the ones who are
going to be guiding you know, We're going to actually
have experts on hand to help us find some ways
to deal with all the mayhem and chaos of our
(00:34):
own lives. And then yes, it's all the headlines in
the world. So to start things off, we have a
faith leader, Liz Bukar. She is the author of five
books and her latest one is called Beyond Wellness, How
Restoring religious roots of spiritual practices can Heal Us.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
She's an expert in religious ethics. She's a professor of
religion at Northeastern University.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
TJ.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I know you're excited about this because this was a
big part of what we used to do.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
We used to call it Faith Fridays back in the day.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
But yeah, we need it more than ever. And there's
just it looks life is hard and ural TV life
looks like it's harder, so we need some guidance. And
Sunday is a good day for people to reflect and
want to improve their lives. So there's only so much
advice we can give them. We need somebody else to
start doubling ounce advice.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes, step in, Liz Buguard. Liz, thank you for being
with us today.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Oh, thanks very much for having me here. I have
to say, I don't think I've been called a faith
leader that much. So this is interesting for me because
you know you're a leader then yeah, I mean because
I am someone who doesn't have a religious affiliation, right,
but I am sort of becoming this public theologian for
people without religious afiliation. So I'll take it. I'll sit
with it. I'll take you out there.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Can we start there? What's the difference when you hear
people say I'm religious others say I'm spiritual? What do
people because sometimes people roll their eyes and go, oh god, here,
what do you think people are meeting when they say that?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I think so when I hear that from my students,
for example, my college students that for them, there's a
bucket which is religion, and they're like, those are institutions
that's power. That's what I grew up in, That's what
my grandparents did. That's maybe five major religious traditions that
I know that you know, you can name them, and
I don't want that. They think, right, that's like that's abuse,
(02:21):
and that's doesn't line up on my core values. And
then when they say spiritual, they mean the part of
religion that they kind of like like, maybe it's a
part that they personally curated. Maybe it's more about their
individual quest, Maybe it's more internal, maybe it's more mystical.
And I think that in their head, and I'm saying
this all counts you a little bit, in their head,
I think they think that avoids some of the pitfalls religion.
(02:44):
Like in the religious studies point of view, we sort
of see religion as a bigger bucket and that spirituality
it's like a branding issue, right. Spirituality has branded itself
as the good stuff, you know, the individually curated stuff,
the devoid of or the power dynamics institutions, and religion
has the big pr problem right now. But in my head,
(03:05):
all that stuff is religion. But yeah, I think that
usually that's what meet people mean. They like want to
Sometimes they're deconstructing religion they grew up in or like
a lot of my students, they didn't grow up with
any religion. They're like, oh, religion, that's white Christian nationalism.
That's not for me. So they only hear the loudest voices,
the loudest religious voices, and they think that's all that
religion sort of can offer them.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
I never thought of it that way. That spirituality it
still comes from religion. But we're kind of just plucking
the things we like most.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And don't.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
You know what scholars sometimes say is that it's not
really an analytical factual distinction. It's a normative one, meaning
like religion stuff we don't like, spirituality, stuff we do
like for people who can say so. But it's all
that being said, people like really much, very much like
like these categories, right, and they feel comfortable saying I
have a spiritual practice or I am looking for a
(03:58):
spiritual path, and I just I can't the word religion.
It's too loaded for me. It comes with too much baggage.
I'm not interested. So I want to also name that is, like,
you know, an appropriate response to what is going on
right now?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, I have to be fully transparent.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I have absolutely said that I'm not religious, I'm spiritual.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I was like, I was very nice.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I was raised in a very Catholic family. My parents
are still very much Catholic. My brother is very Christian.
I am the black sheep of the family in the
sense that I have taken a different path, but I
still have and I still appreciate the moral compass I
was given. Yeah, studying Catholicism, going to Catholic school. I
(04:41):
had both my daughters go to Catholic schools. But I
like what you said that religion has a PR.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Problem the worst, Right, It's the worst.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
And I think I feel like when I was coming up,
losing my religion, rim was like a popular song, and
I feel like it's pretty much been lost by a
lot of young folks.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Why do they have APR problem? What is the issue?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Why are people turned off by the idea of religion
or going to church or having a specific faith.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yeah, I mean I think it's a lot of different
reasons for a lot of different people.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Sometimes some people are deconstructing religious trauma. They grew up
in a really high control religious environment and like so
now they associate all religion with that backstory. For some people,
I think it's that religious institutions have kind of failed us,
and whether or not that's like leadership or whatever. And
so again it's like that must have been the religion,
(05:35):
not the institutions, not the people, must have been the religion.
For young people. I actually did a series of interviews
for Timbo a couple of years ago. For young people,
the biggest reason that they leave religion is because of
the misalignment they see with their core values and the
religious tradition they grew up, and often around LGBT issues. Actually,
they're like, I just can't like this church doesn't line
(05:55):
up with my sense of sexuality and humanity and human rights,
and so I just I am taking myself out of
that entirely. I think it's for a lot of different reasons. Again,
I think religion has a pr problem and it's sort
of well deserved. But a lot of what I've been
trying to do is, like I agree, I have no
religious filiation myself, and I'm not trying to, like, you know,
(06:17):
join anything right now or ever really, but there are
some helpful things right now for me personally, and like
you know, as you start TJ. Like the world is
hard right now. It is. It is hard on so
many levels, right, I mean, it's not just politics, it's
the environment, It's like what the heck is going on
with technology in AI, it's you know, it's all the things.
(06:38):
And having some way to interpret what's going on and
respond to it is hard to find. And I just
find religion super helpful. Conversation and partners. They give me concepts,
they give me ways of thinking, They make me realize
what I'm missing maybe, And I just want to put
it back in the conversation because if we don't, then
those loud voices that my students don't like, the super
(06:59):
concern of voices, they win and they get to own
all that space of you know, theological imagination, hope, trust, faith,
Like I want to take some of that back.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
I guess, as you said, for you personally, what religion
does even though you don't have an affiliation, and what
it means for you. Where do you see religion's value
right now? Yeah, well, the grander society in terms of
applying it to all of these things in the world
that are so difficult right now.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, Well, I mean a couple of like I mean
there's some concrete things, right. So I feel like some
of the bravest, most courageous pushback I'm seeing is from
religious leaders. They're not maybe my religious leaders, but they're
religious leaders. If I think about what happened in the
Twin Cities, who were showing up where their bodies and
linking arms and really resisting what was happening with ICE.
If I think about the recent the Pope's recent and
(07:52):
cyclical about AI, one of the very strongest, you know,
sort of like this is why this is morally might
be problematic, you know, really strong statement against the silicon value.
So I think we do have some like voices in this,
like you know, on their best day, like you know,
prophetics sort of MLK sort of like vibe going on.
So I think that's happening. But I also think that
(08:13):
there are I am just finding that as I study
religion for a long time. I have a PhD in it,
I study it for decades's kind as an anthropologists someone
else's religion, not for me. But as I went right,
I sort of realized I was collecting these different concepts
and buckets and ways of thinking about the world, sort
of like philosophy on steroids. I say so. For me,
(08:35):
religion really helps me think about the difference between optimism
and hope. It makes me think about human flourishing beyond
just like self optimization, you know, or individual. It really
helps me think about community, helps me decenter humanity, like
just humans in general. Like I find indigenous world views
so helpful for like getting us away from this sort
(08:58):
of narcissistic Like I'm just like trying to do good
for me. I'm like, where am I like wearable track
in my biomarkers. I'm like, but all that is like
not enough, right, you're just shaking your head? Is tjing?
You do a wear able TD?
Speaker 4 (09:12):
No, well, I'm completely agreeing with the direction you're going.
That's what that means.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You gotta bring on. Yeah, I think all that and
that's actually wright. I wrote this book beyond Well now
I think all that's important, right, Like I do that stuff.
I track my microbes. I lived heavy, you know, I'm
a midlife women. I do what I'm supposed to do.
But that's not that's not it. That's not all of it.
I think human flourishing is bigger. I think that's just
the like the floor, right, And I think that religious
traditions have really grappled with human flourishing, whether or not
(09:38):
they're directed to. You know, again, a view of the
world that's much more focused on like nature, like an
indigenous one, or a focus maybe on divinity, or just
a different kind of metaphysics that just gets me outside
of my like head of like where I'm being. What
I'm mean told is a full human life and me
being like somebody's missing, what's missing. Oh, here's someone, here's
(09:58):
a traditional that's thought about it. To talk to them
about it. Let's see what they've got from me and
how it can use this imply it to my own life.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
That is so interesting I hadn't thought about on this
journey we're all on and we see it on social
media and certainly in the technology that's been given to
us to make our best selves. We're focused on self improvement,
self help and self is in front of all of it,
and I hadn't really thought about religion is collective.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Religion.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Religious groups are communities, and that's what's missing in all
of this self help, all the books. It's all about
you and finding yourself, and so the role of religion
gets lost. That community aspect of it. So what is
the key to the well being? How do you marry
the individual needs and how your own personal growth should
(10:48):
align with Yes, a community a larger perspective.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yeah, And I don't think you necessarily need like a
religion or religious community to do that. I just think
that there are some helpful like patterns there to like
maybe draw on. Right, So I think you're right, Like
wellness culture, for example, wants us to not only focus
on ourself but optimize ourself right for longevity and peak performance,
and that forgets that like human life is fragile and
(11:15):
vulnerable and it ends right, Like what about preparing for
a good death? Like I'm the Sandwich generation, right, so
I'm already thinking about what it looks like to be
you know, helping parents and and laws sort of that
next great sort of life transition. So I think what religion?
So for me, what religion does when I like, I
(11:37):
mean what I did for the book was like basically
like try on a bunch of stuff like, oh, okay,
like sound baths. Well, what would a sound bath? What
does sound look like? More embedded in a relich tradition?
Like what do I get? Oh? Oh really? Okay? So
sound bass are very popular forms of meditation right now.
And then people love it because if they think of
it as like quote unquote easy meditation, because you like
(11:57):
lie on the ground someone plays like a metal bowl
or crystal bowl, right, or gong and then like the
vibrations like help you meditate and sort of like or
take up depending on who you're talking to, take kind
of our journey, right. And so I did a bunch
and that's very popular now I'm being sold that a lot.
And so I'm surprised you haven't been amy on your insta.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I just got my you know what it was. I
had no idea what it was.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, it's become it used to be very like underground subculture.
It's becoming very popular, right. It's an add on to
yoga classes or people. It just kind of springing up everywhere.
But you kind of just show up and like passively
lay there often and like then you're done an hour later.
So that's one like version of like sound for like wellness.
But like religious traditions think about sound much deeper, right,
(12:40):
They train you how to listen deeply. They if a
sound bath is about just coming out calm. In the
religious tradition, like the Sick tradition, which is a lot
there's a lot of sound involved in music involved, sacred
sound involved in the sick tradition. But there the music
isn't that the sound isn't just about like feeling calm
and chasing the good vibes. It's about all vibes, all
the emotions, really leaning and fully into feeling everything, including
(13:05):
anxiety and suffering that comes from being you know, away
from a beloved And so that understand, like, how do
you train yourself to be a deep listener? How do
you develop this emotional intelligence? How do we become I
mean I walk around with like headphones on and I
sleep in ear plugs. I'm not a good listener. I've like,
modern life doesn't teach me to listen carefully. So how
do religions help us think about really training ourselves to
(13:27):
listen better, to understand what's going on around us so
we can respond better. I mean that's just like one
little example, but I basically found that every time I
took a very popular one less practice and then I
went back and looked at it in a more religious container.
I added back in community right away, like we said,
but also ethics, like suddenly there were like ethical obligations
put on me that people don't like that either, like
(13:49):
my students for example, they don't want someone else's rules
to follow, but like more like right action. Ethical living
is also I think part of a good life and
all that together the stuff have more meaning and purpose
and I think just work better for people. I mean
that sort of was my big takeaway.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
And who's currently doing the PR for religion and why
are they so parle?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, well I think I've been hired on as a scrappy,
like you know, ringer, like maybe I can do a
little PR for my slipstack is called religion reimagined And
I'm like, I get a lot of people mad at
me for that, but yeah, I mean, look, the people
who are the loudest voices. We can talk about who's
the loudest voices right now in America, right, And that's
who's doing the PR for religion, and they're not it's
not a good it's not a good face for religion, right,
(14:42):
it's not. Yeah, I mean I think that's who's who's
claiming the airwaves right now for religion. Are those loudest voices?
If it's like a Doug Wilson or if it's a
current version of what the administration is doing or what's happening. Uh,
you know, at the highest sort of levels, I think
that's who is. I think they've like taken over the
communication and messaging about about it. That being said, there's
(15:03):
I mean, it's certainly true that like there are prophetic, progressive,
liberatory religious voices that are doing their work. That's always
been true with the Black Church in the US. They've
always been onto the right side of history and always
been sort of leaders and pushing back and like naming
what's happening, even when naming things was dangerous, right, and
(15:25):
witnessing right. There's that thing too that, like religious traditions,
when they're at their best, religious leaders, when they're at
their most courageous, are able to articulate and witness and say, no,
this is what's happening right now, and it's wrong and
we shouldn't be doing it, and that is happening. It's
just that we're hearing a lot of the noise too.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
And I'm curious in that there's always a debate about this.
There's a debate about everything these days. I feel like,
but is there an appropriate and actually advantageous role for
religion and politics. I mean, we do need a moral compass.
We're for ethics of any kind when it comes to
our elected leaders. I know we have separation of church
(16:06):
and state obviously, but is there a role for religion
in politics?
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, I mean I think the first thing is, have
we ever really had a separation of church and state
like we said we did? But actually what happened was
a version of like White prostantism just sort of seeped
its way into the US and lots of different ways,
right into Supreme Court decisions, and so all our legal
stuff is very much seeped with like Christian norms and
(16:31):
values before this current administration. Right, this is nothing new.
So that's just one example. So we're supposed to have
separation of church and state, we've never really done that successfully.
I think it's tricky to figure out, and we've never
We're trying to always work this out, right, like how
to allow for real religious pluralism without privileging one and
without making people who feel like they don't have any
(16:52):
religious filiation feel like they're you know, outsiders too. I
think part of it is religious institutions made aren't good
at this, and so maybe we need different kinds of
religious institutions or different types of like collectivity that can
do this in ways that are not you know, politics
is corrupting to religion, right, If religion is corrupting to politics,
(17:13):
politics can be very corrupting to religion as well. And
that's the big argument for keeping them separate from a
religious point of view, is that once you start getting
involved in politics, you know, your religion suffers.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
What would you advise me to people who want to
find religion and how difficult they might be able to
find it on your own because they're getting like you said,
some of these spokespeople for religion right now might completely
turn someone off to religion, but they're looking for a
way to still enter into it in some way in
order to advise that person. And just how difficult is
it to find religion if you will on your own.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, well, I think it is. I get this question
a lot. I think it is really challenging. Right, So,
I think, particularly since we're told we don't trust institutions,
we don't trust leaders, we don't trust spiritual gurus even anymore. Right,
we're in the era of the death of the spiritual
gurus too. Many of them were in the Epstein files,
like we've canceled them all. But you can't just trust
your gut and your intuition on this. It's really helpful
(18:10):
to have a community, to have a teacher in some way.
So I think trying to find a community that will
welcome you in. It's interesting. I was trying to think
about this for me. I just came back. I have
a cabin in northwest Connecticut and there's a local pastor
out there that does a service at like a local
pond like in the woods on Sunday, And I was like, huh, Like,
there's stuff about that that actually jives with me because
(18:32):
it's like a space. It's like a force that I
care about. It's in nature, it's a community. It's a
town that I feel very close to, Like the people
there I feel very close to. Maybe that's the kind
of community I could join. There are people and places,
I mean, this is happening on places like Substack is
happening virtually people who are like trying to grapple with
(18:53):
what does their version of religion and belonging look like.
But it's really it's really finding I think a group,
not just a person that you're gonna like follow that
can be dangerous and then making sure you like you're like,
oh okay people in this group, like you know, is
this the vibe for me? Like? Is this is this really?
You know? What are their core values? Do they line
up with mine? Whether they how are they politically engaged
(19:16):
or not politically engaged? Because sometimes religious communities and so
personally for me, I find religion more valuable when it
can be engaged. I don't have a lot of patients
for spiritual bypassing tapping out right now, too much is
happening if we tap out, like then we give up
our future too, you know, again those loudest voices. So
is this community engaged in the community? Is it politically
(19:37):
engage in a way that lines with me? You know?
Are there things? Are there ways or their rituals or
things that they do that line up with me? But
I think I think you're right. I think it's hard.
I think it does take a lot of research instead
of searching. But I think you have to vet them
a little bit, right, because you know, just because it's
not a traditional religious community doesn't mean there couldn't be
(19:57):
some you know, some sort of danger abuse happening there
as well.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Liz, do you have the numbers on how many people
in this country identify as religious? Because the numbers obviously
have been dwindling, so they have been.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
So the Pew Forum staty is this right, and the
numbers it's interesting the numbers of what they basically track
is how people are not religiously affiliated, right, And so
that bucket has been increasing, and it's about twenty five
percent now. There are some estimates that particularly young people,
it's growing in that number particular, so that young people
(20:31):
it may be like high thirties that are non really
to affiliated thirty percent, thirty six percent. I think what's
hard about those surveys is like what do they capture?
So if you ask my student, like are you religious?
And they're like no, no, no, And then you say,
do you have a mindfulness practice, meditation practice, do you
do taro cards? Do you do you do have a
little I don't know, a little pagan Wicca thing going on,
(20:53):
Like they might have a bunch of stuff that looks
like religion, it just doesn't look like it's not. Christianity, Islam,
Hindu is like one of the kind of big five
buckets so I don't think that religion is dwindling. I
think that religion is changing and shifting and religious affiliation
is dwindling, probably because I think that. I mean, if
I think about what is happening with what's going on
(21:17):
in the world right now, I do think you could
say it's a spiritual crisis, because I think we are
looking for meaning and purpose and that just sounds like
a spiritual crisis to me, and people will always go
back to these sort of like tools of ritual and
community and writes a passage looking for transformation and salvation.
(21:38):
I just don't think it's going to look necessarily the same.
As we consume religion and spirituality in different ways, right,
people aren't going to go back. I mean, my students
aren't like reading classic texts, right, They're consuming spirituality through
Instagram or buying things from Etsy and stuff. So it's
hard to know really what's happening. It seems to me
that we were really puminating in terms of relatively and
(22:00):
maybe it's sort of evened out, but I actually think
it's that that's what stats will tell you, right, But
I think what's actually happening if you had a more
a wider view is that it's just shifting and changing.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Shifting and changing because people are looking for something so
to that, whether it's religion or you want to use
spiritual take Can you take a moment here and however
you want to answer, give people who are looking for
a way to understand our gas persons are now going
off while we're fighting politically all the time. Why this
kid is getting killed in Mississippi and it starts a war.
(22:43):
Why I've gotta deal with a damn bacteria that's causing
explosive diary? I cy so applied for people who are
looking for that and understanding in some way to be comforted,
whether it's religion or beer as well. Can you give
some guidance here for people who are looking for some meaning?
Speaker 3 (23:04):
So, I that's interesting. I was going to ask about
this a couple of days ago, and I said, you know,
about a year ago, I was in a real place
of like what the you know? I like, I got
I got nothing. I can't be hopeful right now. I'm
just so upset all the time, like upset, like I'm
worried about my kid is graduating from high school? Like
what what is this world? Like I'm fine, great, I'm
(23:25):
personally fine, but what is happening to everyone around me?
What's happening to my community in my country, and what's
the future that we were creating for my kid? And
just felt really beaten down and you know, had to
tap out the news for a while. I just couldn't
consume it anymore. Right, It's just too much. It feels
like too much. So I think that when I think
about what religious ideas can offer me, it's partly the
(23:48):
importance of witnessing and really paying attention to what is
happening and not tapping out. And then it also gives
me framework for hope, which is very different than optimism.
I have trouble with hope because because I'm not religious,
I don't have a belief system or trust in a
higher power, say right, or some sort of metaphysical cosmology
(24:09):
that like says it's all going to turn out okay.
My mom has that. I don't have that. So for
me being able to imagine a future that looks better
than right now, even though right now looks pretty bad,
that to me feels like a theological exercise. And that's
where I'm getting That's where I'm getting my hope from So,
(24:31):
hope is different than optimism, right. Optimism is like everything's
going to turn out fine. It's the opposite of pessimism,
Everything's not going to turn out fine. Hope is like,
hopefully it's going to turn out fine, it might not,
and what and what will change it is what I
do today. So I'm thinking a lot about how do
I motivate myself to act in the world right now?
How do I start to imagine? I think we think
(24:53):
like hope and imagination seem kind of like I don't know,
wishy washy, but I think they're super important this political
moment because if we don't look, the right is really
good in imagining a future. They get a playbook. They
like know where they're going. I'm not sure that like
the left, you know, or even the middle has such
(25:13):
a clear vision of where we're going. And the only
reason I feel better now than I did a year ago,
as I've sort of told myself, yeah, things are breaking.
Everything is breaking, like the rule of law is breaking.
I'm in higher ed breaking like these things are breaking
apart things I thought that could depend on. But maybe
they're breaking because we're gonna transform into something new and better,
(25:36):
Like if the rule of law was so easy to break,
maybe it wasn't that good to start with, Like maybe
we just didn't have the right systems in place, so
maybe we can build something better. If corruption was so easy,
like there's so much corruption, people are like proud, they
like they flaunt their corruption right and embezzlement. If that
was so easy to do, maybe it's because we forgot right,
don't you think. I mean, it's sort of like a
badge of honor. No one's embarrassed that they're like in
(25:58):
bezzling money right right now in terms of like this,
you know, the oligarchy or whatever, the leadership in the US,
So how do we like? That means that we just
didn't have a sense of like our core values as
a country. I mean I sort of post on substack
about patriotism because of July fourth, Like patriotism not a
word I love, but I need to like that because
(26:19):
I have a kid who's growing up in America, is
going to college in America, plans to be American. If
I can't create some version of America that I can
get behind and that I'm proud of, and I've given
up America to people I don't agree with right, So
all that stuff, and maybe that doesn't sound particularly spiritual
or theological religious, but those are all things I've gotten
(26:40):
from engaging religiotricians and taking them very seriously on their
own terms.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Well, I hope you're right, but I'm not optimistic.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Well, oh my goodness, And one last question for you,
And you mentioned your mom, and I think a lot
of people might feel this way too. You mentioned you're
in this and which genuation we But how do you
have those conversations with your mom knowing that you all
don't and a lot of families and a lot of
people deal with this when you don't have or don't
(27:13):
share the same faith, so to speak, but you still
believe in hope and you still have a spiritual practice.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
How do you what advice would you.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Give to people who I think always dealing with that
back and forth.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I think that's so important to name because I think
sometimes we talk about like the left also talks about
or the center talks about us versus them, and we
forget that like usually the them as in our family,
or often that them is our neighbor or a part
of our family. So for you know, and I have
members of my family that voted the other way in
the last administration. For example, I have members of my
(27:47):
family who consume much different media than I do, so
they have a totally different narrative of like what went down,
what went down the Twin Cities, for example. I think
that the place to make the change is those harder
personal connections starting there. I think those are hard conversations
that have It's a lot harder than going to a
note King's rally, but they can be the most impactful.
(28:08):
I had, you know, after I think it was after
the Alex Pretty murder. I wrote a substack post about
how I'm afraid to call my mom right now because
i just don't know. I'm so upset and I'm like
crying a lot, and I like watched it all. I'm
very online, right, so I watched it all happen live,
and that made it so visceral of what was happening
(28:29):
in that we're recording a week where we just had
three more murders, right, and it was just so upset
about it and grieving, just like grieving America, grieving and everything.
And I'm afraid to call my mom right now because
I don't know that she's seeing the world the same way.
And that's my mom who gave me my core values, right.
And I wrote a substack called I'm Afraid to Call
my Mom. And you want to know who reads every
(28:50):
one of my substacks? My mom, mom? Yeah, everyone. So
she called me and we had a really hard conversation,
which of which you know, she said, you're assuming some
things about me that aren't true, and I said, that's fair.
I'm sorry, here's a lot of eye statements. I feel
this way. I'm worried about this. Here's what I'm concerned about.
(29:11):
And then, you know, and she kind of did the
same thing, and it was it was a rough and
we had a number of conversations and they were exhausting.
But a couple of things came out of that, right,
Like we opened up this line of communication. She now
has the New York Times app on her phone so
she can get different kinds of news. I mean that
that was a huge win for me, that she wasn't
just getting her nude from the Epoch Times or whatever. Right,
(29:32):
So yeah, I mean, that's a totally different version of
what is happening. Right, So, but it was not I
was not a conversation. I wanted to have a lot
easier to write anonymously for a lot of people or
talk to my students, But it's probably one of the
most important conversations I had this year. So I think
the idea of like really leading with humility and again
(29:55):
a lot of eye statements. But I think it's starting
with these conversations that are close to you, because those
people the people that you care about you, Right, this
is my mom. She cares about me. She doesn't want
me to be grieving and unhappy, even if we disagree.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
So if you got her to get the New York
Times app, what app does she get to you to.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Get No, I guess I didn't get an app, so
I requires a bunch of I mean, I think for
her the win was me like listening like, you're right, Mom,
I didn't know. I hadn't really thought about your point
of view. You're right, your life is different. I get it.
You're you know, You're you're also in a marriage that's
different than my relationship, right, So you know, and there
(30:31):
are there are pressures on you. You're also in a part
of the world that's like she's in rural Pennsylvania. It's
very different from them where I am. So I think
that for her the win was that, like I listened
to her, you know, I'm like her, her fancy professor
like daughter. But then I listened to her and really
like took you know, not just dismiss of what she said, right,
(30:51):
and that really took on board what she and I
think that was really important to her.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That that is a win. And I think that's a
wonderful way to end, because that is cool, and that
gives me hope that we all just need to listen
to each other and we can disagree, but we can
be respectful and we can love each other without always necessarily.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Being on the same page.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
That is a.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Wonderful personal lesson that you shared with us. We appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I mean, there's a thing called Tylerrico's talking a lot
about this politics of love, which sounds like OUI guy
and suttimental, but really what it means is that sort
of like respect to the person who would totally disagree
with and really rebuilding this idea of common good and
collectivity and not just like looking out for you and
not being selfrightious to some principle that you can't hear
the other person and is thinking and saying and their experience.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, we need more of that in this world.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
But Liz Bukhar, thank you so much for being with
us on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
We appreciate it. We hope a lot of people got
inspired and.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Maybe opened their minds and their hearts a little bit
to what you had to say, whether they're religious or
spiritual or none of the above.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
But thank you for being on the podcast today.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Thanks for having me. Guys. The catch
Hey, there, everybody, and welcome to Amy and TJ. It
is Sunday, July nineteenth, and we are starting something new
and we hope you like it.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
We are starting a Sunday.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Series, a spiritual Sunday series. How about that where we
hope we can give you some insight, some inspiration, some
time to reflect. But we're not the ones who are
going to be guiding you know, We're going to actually
have experts on hand to help us find some ways
to deal with all the mayhem and chaos of our
(00:34):
own lives. And then yes, it's all the headlines in
the world. So to start things off, we have a
faith leader, Liz Bukar. She is the author of five
books and her latest one is called Beyond Wellness, How
Restoring religious roots of spiritual practices can Heal Us.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
She's an expert in religious ethics. She's a professor of
religion at Northeastern University.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
TJ.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I know you're excited about this because this was a
big part of what we used to do.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
We used to call it Faith Fridays back in the day.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
But yeah, we need it more than ever. And there's
just it looks life is hard and ural TV life
looks like it's harder, so we need some guidance. And
Sunday is a good day for people to reflect and
want to improve their lives. So there's only so much
advice we can give them. We need somebody else to
start doubling ounce advice.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes, step in, Liz Buguard. Liz, thank you for being
with us today.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Oh, thanks very much for having me here. I have
to say, I don't think I've been called a faith
leader that much. So this is interesting for me because
you know you're a leader then yeah, I mean because
I am someone who doesn't have a religious affiliation, right,
but I am sort of becoming this public theologian for
people without religious afiliation. So I'll take it. I'll sit
with it. I'll take you out there.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Can we start there? What's the difference when you hear
people say I'm religious others say I'm spiritual? What do
people because sometimes people roll their eyes and go, oh god, here,
what do you think people are meeting when they say that?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I think so when I hear that from my students,
for example, my college students that for them, there's a
bucket which is religion, and they're like, those are institutions
that's power. That's what I grew up in, That's what
my grandparents did. That's maybe five major religious traditions that
I know that you know, you can name them, and
I don't want that. They think, right, that's like that's abuse,
(02:21):
and that's doesn't line up on my core values. And
then when they say spiritual, they mean the part of
religion that they kind of like like, maybe it's a
part that they personally curated. Maybe it's more about their
individual quest, Maybe it's more internal, maybe it's more mystical.
And I think that in their head, and I'm saying
this all counts you a little bit, in their head,
I think they think that avoids some of the pitfalls religion.
(02:44):
Like in the religious studies point of view, we sort
of see religion as a bigger bucket and that spirituality
it's like a branding issue, right. Spirituality has branded itself
as the good stuff, you know, the individually curated stuff,
the devoid of or the power dynamics institutions, and religion
has the big pr problem right now. But in my head,
(03:05):
all that stuff is religion. But yeah, I think that
usually that's what meet people mean. They like want to
Sometimes they're deconstructing religion they grew up in or like
a lot of my students, they didn't grow up with
any religion. They're like, oh, religion, that's white Christian nationalism.
That's not for me. So they only hear the loudest voices,
the loudest religious voices, and they think that's all that
religion sort of can offer them.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
I never thought of it that way. That spirituality it
still comes from religion. But we're kind of just plucking
the things we like most.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And don't.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
You know.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
You know what scholars sometimes say is that it's not
really an analytical factual distinction. It's a normative one, meaning
like religion stuff we don't like, spirituality, stuff we do
like for people who can say so. But it's all
that being said, people like really much, very much like
like these categories, right, and they feel comfortable saying I
have a spiritual practice or I am looking for a
(03:58):
spiritual path, and I just I can't the word religion.
It's too loaded for me. It comes with too much baggage.
I'm not interested. So I want to also name that is, like,
you know, an appropriate response to what is going on
right now?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, I have to be fully transparent.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
I have absolutely said that I'm not religious, I'm spiritual.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I was like, I was very nice.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I was raised in a very Catholic family. My parents
are still very much Catholic. My brother is very Christian.
I am the black sheep of the family in the
sense that I have taken a different path, but I
still have and I still appreciate the moral compass I
was given. Yeah, studying Catholicism, going to Catholic school. I
(04:41):
had both my daughters go to Catholic schools. But I
like what you said that religion has a PR.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Problem the worst, Right, It's the worst.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
And I think I feel like when I was coming up,
losing my religion, rim was like a popular song, and
I feel like it's pretty much been lost by a
lot of young folks.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Why do they have APR problem? What is the issue?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Why are people turned off by the idea of religion
or going to church or having a specific faith.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yeah, I mean I think it's a lot of different
reasons for a lot of different people.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Sometimes some people are deconstructing religious trauma. They grew up
in a really high control religious environment and like so
now they associate all religion with that backstory. For some people,
I think it's that religious institutions have kind of failed us,
and whether or not that's like leadership or whatever. And
so again it's like that must have been the religion,
(05:35):
not the institutions, not the people, must have been the religion.
For young people. I actually did a series of interviews
for Timbo a couple of years ago. For young people,
the biggest reason that they leave religion is because of
the misalignment they see with their core values and the
religious tradition they grew up, and often around LGBT issues. Actually,
they're like, I just can't like this church doesn't line
(05:55):
up with my sense of sexuality and humanity and human rights,
and so I just I am taking myself out of
that entirely. I think it's for a lot of different reasons. Again,
I think religion has a pr problem and it's sort
of well deserved. But a lot of what I've been
trying to do is, like I agree, I have no
religious filiation myself, and I'm not trying to, like, you know,
(06:17):
join anything right now or ever really, but there are
some helpful things right now for me personally, and like
you know, as you start TJ. Like the world is
hard right now. It is. It is hard on so
many levels, right, I mean, it's not just politics, it's
the environment, It's like what the heck is going on
with technology in AI, it's you know, it's all the things.
(06:38):
And having some way to interpret what's going on and
respond to it is hard to find. And I just
find religion super helpful. Conversation and partners. They give me concepts,
they give me ways of thinking, They make me realize
what I'm missing maybe, And I just want to put
it back in the conversation because if we don't, then
those loud voices that my students don't like, the super
(06:59):
concern of voices, they win and they get to own
all that space of you know, theological imagination, hope, trust, faith,
Like I want to take some of that back.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
I guess, as you said, for you personally, what religion
does even though you don't have an affiliation, and what
it means for you. Where do you see religion's value
right now? Yeah, well, the grander society in terms of
applying it to all of these things in the world
that are so difficult right now.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, Well, I mean a couple of like I mean
there's some concrete things, right. So I feel like some
of the bravest, most courageous pushback I'm seeing is from
religious leaders. They're not maybe my religious leaders, but they're
religious leaders. If I think about what happened in the
Twin Cities, who were showing up where their bodies and
linking arms and really resisting what was happening with ICE.
If I think about the recent the Pope's recent and
(07:52):
cyclical about AI, one of the very strongest, you know,
sort of like this is why this is morally might
be problematic, you know, really strong statement against the silicon value.
So I think we do have some like voices in this,
like you know, on their best day, like you know,
prophetics sort of MLK sort of like vibe going on.
So I think that's happening. But I also think that
(08:13):
there are I am just finding that as I study
religion for a long time. I have a PhD in it,
I study it for decades's kind as an anthropologists someone
else's religion, not for me. But as I went right,
I sort of realized I was collecting these different concepts
and buckets and ways of thinking about the world, sort
of like philosophy on steroids. I say so. For me,
(08:35):
religion really helps me think about the difference between optimism
and hope. It makes me think about human flourishing beyond
just like self optimization, you know, or individual. It really
helps me think about community, helps me decenter humanity, like
just humans in general. Like I find indigenous world views
so helpful for like getting us away from this sort
(08:58):
of narcissistic Like I'm just like trying to do good
for me. I'm like, where am I like wearable track
in my biomarkers. I'm like, but all that is like
not enough, right, you're just shaking your head? Is tjing?
You do a wear able TD?
Speaker 4 (09:12):
No, well, I'm completely agreeing with the direction you're going.
That's what that means.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You gotta bring on. Yeah, I think all that and
that's actually wright. I wrote this book beyond Well now
I think all that's important, right, Like I do that stuff.
I track my microbes. I lived heavy, you know, I'm
a midlife women. I do what I'm supposed to do.
But that's not that's not it. That's not all of it.
I think human flourishing is bigger. I think that's just
the like the floor, right, And I think that religious
traditions have really grappled with human flourishing, whether or not
(09:38):
they're directed to. You know, again, a view of the
world that's much more focused on like nature, like an
indigenous one, or a focus maybe on divinity, or just
a different kind of metaphysics that just gets me outside
of my like head of like where I'm being. What
I'm mean told is a full human life and me
being like somebody's missing, what's missing. Oh, here's someone, here's
(09:58):
a traditional that's thought about it. To talk to them
about it. Let's see what they've got from me and
how it can use this imply it to my own life.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
That is so interesting I hadn't thought about on this
journey we're all on and we see it on social
media and certainly in the technology that's been given to
us to make our best selves. We're focused on self improvement,
self help and self is in front of all of it,
and I hadn't really thought about religion is collective.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Religion.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Religious groups are communities, and that's what's missing in all
of this self help, all the books. It's all about
you and finding yourself, and so the role of religion
gets lost. That community aspect of it. So what is
the key to the well being? How do you marry
the individual needs and how your own personal growth should
(10:48):
align with Yes, a community a larger perspective.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yeah, And I don't think you necessarily need like a
religion or religious community to do that. I just think
that there are some helpful like patterns there to like
maybe draw on. Right, So I think you're right, Like
wellness culture, for example, wants us to not only focus
on ourself but optimize ourself right for longevity and peak performance,
and that forgets that like human life is fragile and
(11:15):
vulnerable and it ends right, Like what about preparing for
a good death? Like I'm the Sandwich generation, right, so
I'm already thinking about what it looks like to be
you know, helping parents and and laws sort of that
next great sort of life transition. So I think what religion?
So for me, what religion does when I like, I
(11:37):
mean what I did for the book was like basically
like try on a bunch of stuff like, oh, okay,
like sound baths. Well, what would a sound bath? What
does sound look like? More embedded in a relich tradition?
Like what do I get? Oh? Oh really? Okay? So
sound bass are very popular forms of meditation right now.
And then people love it because if they think of
it as like quote unquote easy meditation, because you like
(11:57):
lie on the ground someone plays like a metal bowl
or crystal bowl, right, or gong and then like the
vibrations like help you meditate and sort of like or
take up depending on who you're talking to, take kind
of our journey, right. And so I did a bunch
and that's very popular now I'm being sold that a lot.
And so I'm surprised you haven't been amy on your insta.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I just got my you know what it was. I
had no idea what it was.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, it's become it used to be very like underground subculture.
It's becoming very popular, right. It's an add on to
yoga classes or people. It just kind of springing up everywhere.
But you kind of just show up and like passively
lay there often and like then you're done an hour later.
So that's one like version of like sound for like wellness.
But like religious traditions think about sound much deeper, right,
(12:40):
They train you how to listen deeply. They if a
sound bath is about just coming out calm. In the
religious tradition, like the Sick tradition, which is a lot
there's a lot of sound involved in music involved, sacred
sound involved in the sick tradition. But there the music
isn't that the sound isn't just about like feeling calm
and chasing the good vibes. It's about all vibes, all
the emotions, really leaning and fully into feeling everything, including
(13:05):
anxiety and suffering that comes from being you know, away
from a beloved And so that understand, like, how do
you train yourself to be a deep listener? How do
you develop this emotional intelligence? How do we become I
mean I walk around with like headphones on and I
sleep in ear plugs. I'm not a good listener. I've like,
modern life doesn't teach me to listen carefully. So how
do religions help us think about really training ourselves to
(13:27):
listen better, to understand what's going on around us so
we can respond better. I mean that's just like one
little example, but I basically found that every time I
took a very popular one less practice and then I
went back and looked at it in a more religious container.
I added back in community right away, like we said,
but also ethics, like suddenly there were like ethical obligations
put on me that people don't like that either, like
(13:49):
my students for example, they don't want someone else's rules
to follow, but like more like right action. Ethical living
is also I think part of a good life and
all that together the stuff have more meaning and purpose
and I think just work better for people. I mean
that sort of was my big takeaway.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
And who's currently doing the PR for religion and why
are they so parle?
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, well I think I've been hired on as a scrappy,
like you know, ringer, like maybe I can do a
little PR for my slipstack is called religion reimagined And
I'm like, I get a lot of people mad at
me for that, but yeah, I mean, look, the people
who are the loudest voices. We can talk about who's
the loudest voices right now in America, right, And that's
who's doing the PR for religion, and they're not it's
not a good it's not a good face for religion, right,
(14:42):
it's not. Yeah, I mean I think that's who's who's
claiming the airwaves right now for religion. Are those loudest voices?
If it's like a Doug Wilson or if it's a
current version of what the administration is doing or what's happening. Uh,
you know, at the highest sort of levels, I think
that's who is. I think they've like taken over the
communication and messaging about about it. That being said, there's
(15:03):
I mean, it's certainly true that like there are prophetic, progressive,
liberatory religious voices that are doing their work. That's always
been true with the Black Church in the US. They've
always been onto the right side of history and always
been sort of leaders and pushing back and like naming
what's happening, even when naming things was dangerous, right, and
(15:25):
witnessing right. There's that thing too that, like religious traditions,
when they're at their best, religious leaders, when they're at
their most courageous, are able to articulate and witness and say, no,
this is what's happening right now, and it's wrong and
we shouldn't be doing it, and that is happening. It's
just that we're hearing a lot of the noise too.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
And I'm curious in that there's always a debate about this.
There's a debate about everything these days. I feel like,
but is there an appropriate and actually advantageous role for
religion and politics. I mean, we do need a moral compass.
We're for ethics of any kind when it comes to
our elected leaders. I know we have separation of church
(16:06):
and state obviously, but is there a role for religion
in politics?
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, I mean I think the first thing is, have
we ever really had a separation of church and state
like we said we did? But actually what happened was
a version of like White prostantism just sort of seeped
its way into the US and lots of different ways,
right into Supreme Court decisions, and so all our legal
stuff is very much seeped with like Christian norms and
(16:31):
values before this current administration. Right, this is nothing new.
So that's just one example. So we're supposed to have
separation of church and state, we've never really done that successfully.
I think it's tricky to figure out, and we've never
We're trying to always work this out, right, like how
to allow for real religious pluralism without privileging one and
without making people who feel like they don't have any
(16:52):
religious filiation feel like they're you know, outsiders too. I
think part of it is religious institutions made aren't good
at this, and so maybe we need different kinds of
religious institutions or different types of like collectivity that can
do this in ways that are not you know, politics
is corrupting to religion, right, If religion is corrupting to politics,
(17:13):
politics can be very corrupting to religion as well. And
that's the big argument for keeping them separate from a
religious point of view, is that once you start getting
involved in politics, you know, your religion suffers.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
What would you advise me to people who want to
find religion and how difficult they might be able to
find it on your own because they're getting like you said,
some of these spokespeople for religion right now might completely
turn someone off to religion, but they're looking for a
way to still enter into it in some way in
order to advise that person. And just how difficult is
it to find religion if you will on your own.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, well, I think it is. I get this question
a lot. I think it is really challenging. Right, So,
I think, particularly since we're told we don't trust institutions,
we don't trust leaders, we don't trust spiritual gurus even anymore. Right,
we're in the era of the death of the spiritual
gurus too. Many of them were in the Epstein files,
like we've canceled them all. But you can't just trust
your gut and your intuition on this. It's really helpful
(18:10):
to have a community, to have a teacher in some way.
So I think trying to find a community that will
welcome you in. It's interesting. I was trying to think
about this for me. I just came back. I have
a cabin in northwest Connecticut and there's a local pastor
out there that does a service at like a local
pond like in the woods on Sunday, And I was like, huh, Like,
there's stuff about that that actually jives with me because
(18:32):
it's like a space. It's like a force that I
care about. It's in nature, it's a community. It's a
town that I feel very close to, Like the people
there I feel very close to. Maybe that's the kind
of community I could join. There are people and places,
I mean, this is happening on places like Substack is
happening virtually people who are like trying to grapple with
(18:53):
what does their version of religion and belonging look like.
But it's really it's really finding I think a group,
not just a person that you're gonna like follow that
can be dangerous and then making sure you like you're like,
oh okay people in this group, like you know, is
this the vibe for me? Like? Is this is this really?
You know? What are their core values? Do they line
up with mine? Whether they how are they politically engaged
(19:16):
or not politically engaged? Because sometimes religious communities and so
personally for me, I find religion more valuable when it
can be engaged. I don't have a lot of patients
for spiritual bypassing tapping out right now, too much is
happening if we tap out, like then we give up
our future too, you know, again those loudest voices. So
is this community engaged in the community? Is it politically
(19:37):
engage in a way that lines with me? You know?
Are there things? Are there ways or their rituals or
things that they do that line up with me? But
I think I think you're right. I think it's hard.
I think it does take a lot of research instead
of searching. But I think you have to vet them
a little bit, right, because you know, just because it's
not a traditional religious community doesn't mean there couldn't be
(19:57):
some you know, some sort of danger abuse happening there
as well.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Liz, do you have the numbers on how many people
in this country identify as religious? Because the numbers obviously
have been dwindling, so they have been.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
So the Pew Forum staty is this right, and the
numbers it's interesting the numbers of what they basically track
is how people are not religiously affiliated, right, And so
that bucket has been increasing, and it's about twenty five
percent now. There are some estimates that particularly young people,
it's growing in that number particular, so that young people
(20:31):
it may be like high thirties that are non really
to affiliated thirty percent, thirty six percent. I think what's
hard about those surveys is like what do they capture?
So if you ask my student, like are you religious?
And they're like no, no, no, And then you say,
do you have a mindfulness practice, meditation practice, do you
do taro cards? Do you do you do have a
little I don't know, a little pagan Wicca thing going on,
(20:53):
Like they might have a bunch of stuff that looks
like religion, it just doesn't look like it's not. Christianity, Islam,
Hindu is like one of the kind of big five
buckets so I don't think that religion is dwindling. I
think that religion is changing and shifting and religious affiliation
is dwindling, probably because I think that. I mean, if
I think about what is happening with what's going on
(21:17):
in the world right now, I do think you could
say it's a spiritual crisis, because I think we are
looking for meaning and purpose and that just sounds like
a spiritual crisis to me, and people will always go
back to these sort of like tools of ritual and
community and writes a passage looking for transformation and salvation.
(21:38):
I just don't think it's going to look necessarily the same.
As we consume religion and spirituality in different ways, right,
people aren't going to go back. I mean, my students
aren't like reading classic texts, right, They're consuming spirituality through
Instagram or buying things from Etsy and stuff. So it's
hard to know really what's happening. It seems to me
that we were really puminating in terms of relatively and
(22:00):
maybe it's sort of evened out, but I actually think
it's that that's what stats will tell you, right, But
I think what's actually happening if you had a more
a wider view is that it's just shifting and changing.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Shifting and changing because people are looking for something so
to that, whether it's religion or you want to use
spiritual take Can you take a moment here and however
you want to answer, give people who are looking for
a way to understand our gas persons are now going
off while we're fighting politically all the time. Why this
kid is getting killed in Mississippi and it starts a war.
(22:43):
Why I've gotta deal with a damn bacteria that's causing
explosive diary? I cy so applied for people who are
looking for that and understanding in some way to be comforted,
whether it's religion or beer as well. Can you give
some guidance here for people who are looking for some meaning?
Speaker 3 (23:04):
So, I that's interesting. I was going to ask about
this a couple of days ago, and I said, you know,
about a year ago, I was in a real place
of like what the you know? I like, I got
I got nothing. I can't be hopeful right now. I'm
just so upset all the time, like upset, like I'm
worried about my kid is graduating from high school? Like
what what is this world? Like I'm fine, great, I'm
(23:25):
personally fine, but what is happening to everyone around me?
What's happening to my community in my country, and what's
the future that we were creating for my kid? And
just felt really beaten down and you know, had to
tap out the news for a while. I just couldn't
consume it anymore. Right, It's just too much. It feels
like too much. So I think that when I think
about what religious ideas can offer me, it's partly the
(23:48):
importance of witnessing and really paying attention to what is
happening and not tapping out. And then it also gives
me framework for hope, which is very different than optimism.
I have trouble with hope because because I'm not religious,
I don't have a belief system or trust in a
higher power, say right, or some sort of metaphysical cosmology
(24:09):
that like says it's all going to turn out okay.
My mom has that. I don't have that. So for
me being able to imagine a future that looks better
than right now, even though right now looks pretty bad,
that to me feels like a theological exercise. And that's
where I'm getting That's where I'm getting my hope from So,
(24:31):
hope is different than optimism, right. Optimism is like everything's
going to turn out fine. It's the opposite of pessimism,
Everything's not going to turn out fine. Hope is like,
hopefully it's going to turn out fine, it might not,
and what and what will change it is what I
do today. So I'm thinking a lot about how do
I motivate myself to act in the world right now?
How do I start to imagine? I think we think
(24:53):
like hope and imagination seem kind of like I don't know,
wishy washy, but I think they're super important this political
moment because if we don't look, the right is really
good in imagining a future. They get a playbook. They
like know where they're going. I'm not sure that like
the left, you know, or even the middle has such
(25:13):
a clear vision of where we're going. And the only
reason I feel better now than I did a year ago,
as I've sort of told myself, yeah, things are breaking.
Everything is breaking, like the rule of law is breaking.
I'm in higher ed breaking like these things are breaking
apart things I thought that could depend on. But maybe
they're breaking because we're gonna transform into something new and better,
(25:36):
Like if the rule of law was so easy to break,
maybe it wasn't that good to start with, Like maybe
we just didn't have the right systems in place, so
maybe we can build something better. If corruption was so easy,
like there's so much corruption, people are like proud, they
like they flaunt their corruption right and embezzlement. If that
was so easy to do, maybe it's because we forgot right,
don't you think. I mean, it's sort of like a
badge of honor. No one's embarrassed that they're like in
(25:58):
bezzling money right right now in terms of like this,
you know, the oligarchy or whatever, the leadership in the US,
So how do we like? That means that we just
didn't have a sense of like our core values as
a country. I mean I sort of post on substack
about patriotism because of July fourth, Like patriotism not a
word I love, but I need to like that because
(26:19):
I have a kid who's growing up in America, is
going to college in America, plans to be American. If
I can't create some version of America that I can
get behind and that I'm proud of, and I've given
up America to people I don't agree with right, So
all that stuff, and maybe that doesn't sound particularly spiritual
or theological religious, but those are all things I've gotten
(26:40):
from engaging religiotricians and taking them very seriously on their
own terms.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Well, I hope you're right, but I'm not optimistic.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Well, oh my goodness, And one last question for you,
And you mentioned your mom, and I think a lot
of people might feel this way too. You mentioned you're
in this and which genuation we But how do you
have those conversations with your mom knowing that you all
don't and a lot of families and a lot of
people deal with this when you don't have or don't
(27:13):
share the same faith, so to speak, but you still
believe in hope and you still have a spiritual practice.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
How do you what advice would you.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Give to people who I think always dealing with that
back and forth.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I think that's so important to name because I think
sometimes we talk about like the left also talks about
or the center talks about us versus them, and we
forget that like usually the them as in our family,
or often that them is our neighbor or a part
of our family. So for you know, and I have
members of my family that voted the other way in
the last administration. For example, I have members of my
(27:47):
family who consume much different media than I do, so
they have a totally different narrative of like what went down,
what went down the Twin Cities, for example. I think
that the place to make the change is those harder
personal connections starting there. I think those are hard conversations
that have It's a lot harder than going to a
note King's rally, but they can be the most impactful.
(28:08):
I had, you know, after I think it was after
the Alex Pretty murder. I wrote a substack post about
how I'm afraid to call my mom right now because
i just don't know. I'm so upset and I'm like
crying a lot, and I like watched it all. I'm
very online, right, so I watched it all happen live,
and that made it so visceral of what was happening
(28:29):
in that we're recording a week where we just had
three more murders, right, and it was just so upset
about it and grieving, just like grieving America, grieving and everything.
And I'm afraid to call my mom right now because
I don't know that she's seeing the world the same way.
And that's my mom who gave me my core values, right.
And I wrote a substack called I'm Afraid to Call
my Mom. And you want to know who reads every
(28:50):
one of my substacks? My mom, mom? Yeah, everyone. So
she called me and we had a really hard conversation,
which of which you know, she said, you're assuming some
things about me that aren't true, and I said, that's fair.
I'm sorry, here's a lot of eye statements. I feel
this way. I'm worried about this. Here's what I'm concerned about.
(29:11):
And then, you know, and she kind of did the
same thing, and it was it was a rough and
we had a number of conversations and they were exhausting.
But a couple of things came out of that, right,
Like we opened up this line of communication. She now
has the New York Times app on her phone so
she can get different kinds of news. I mean that
that was a huge win for me, that she wasn't
just getting her nude from the Epoch Times or whatever. Right,
(29:32):
So yeah, I mean, that's a totally different version of
what is happening. Right, So, but it was not I
was not a conversation. I wanted to have a lot
easier to write anonymously for a lot of people or
talk to my students, But it's probably one of the
most important conversations I had this year. So I think
the idea of like really leading with humility and again
(29:55):
a lot of eye statements. But I think it's starting
with these conversations that are close to you, because those
people the people that you care about you, Right, this
is my mom. She cares about me. She doesn't want
me to be grieving and unhappy, even if we disagree.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
So if you got her to get the New York
Times app, what app does she get to you to.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Get No, I guess I didn't get an app, so
I requires a bunch of I mean, I think for
her the win was me like listening like, you're right, Mom,
I didn't know. I hadn't really thought about your point
of view. You're right, your life is different. I get it.
You're you know, You're you're also in a marriage that's
different than my relationship, right, So you know, and there
(30:31):
are there are pressures on you. You're also in a part
of the world that's like she's in rural Pennsylvania. It's
very different from them where I am. So I think
that for her the win was that, like I listened
to her, you know, I'm like her, her fancy professor
like daughter. But then I listened to her and really
like took you know, not just dismiss of what she said, right,
(30:51):
and that really took on board what she and I
think that was really important to her.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That that is a win. And I think that's a
wonderful way to end, because that is cool, and that
gives me hope that we all just need to listen
to each other and we can disagree, but we can
be respectful and we can love each other without always necessarily.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Being on the same page.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
That is a.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Wonderful personal lesson that you shared with us. We appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I mean, there's a thing called Tylerrico's talking a lot
about this politics of love, which sounds like OUI guy
and suttimental, but really what it means is that sort
of like respect to the person who would totally disagree
with and really rebuilding this idea of common good and
collectivity and not just like looking out for you and
not being selfrightious to some principle that you can't hear
the other person and is thinking and saying and their experience.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, we need more of that in this world.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
But Liz Bukhar, thank you so much for being with
us on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
We appreciate it. We hope a lot of people got
inspired and.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Maybe opened their minds and their hearts a little bit
to what you had to say, whether they're religious or
spiritual or none of the above.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
But thank you for being on the podcast today.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Thanks for having me. Guys. The catch
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Amy Robach
T.J. Holmes
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