March 3, 2026 • 39 mins
Most people think success means getting out of the hood. Reverend Kevass Harding chose to stay—and is a highly unusual preacher who will have developed 50 affordable homes by the end of the year and generational change in the very Wichita neighborhood that raised him. In this episode, you’ll learn a practical blueprint for turning your own zip code into a place of opportunity instead of escape.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
One of my favorite stories is a single parent raising
his two kids, got.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
In some trouble.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
They're homeless, looking for housing. I'm trying to not get emotional.
That's why I'm looking away right now.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Look at people. I started crying.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm a crier. So I'm trying to tell because I
get the emotion. See this person who's trying to change
his life. I mean, he wanted to change. He's like,
I'm through with drugs. I'm sick of him. For him
to I feel like a tears coming. I just.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I see his face.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
But to give him keys and that was that was
that was a great, great great And so he's a
single father, get fighting drugs, gone through transitions, homeless, to
give him a key to a three bedroom one bad.
Do you think we eventually on that home?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yes? Ah, yeah, that's the beauty. I got pictures. I
show it to you. He will in that house one day.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm a football coach in inner
city Memphis. And that last part, somehow it led to
an oscar for the film.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
About one of my teams. That movie is called Undefeated.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved
by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using
big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox,
but rather by an army of normal folks. That's us,
just you and me deciding, Hey, you know what, maybe
I can help. That's what Reverend Kevis Harding, the voice
(01:49):
you just heard, has done. Kevis grew up in one
of Wichita's most challenging neighborhoods, played college football in Texas,
and could have more easily pursued the American dream somewhere else,
but instead Kevis came home. He served that same neighborhood
as a police officer, then as a pastor there, and
(02:10):
even has gotten a double life as a real estate developer.
Or maybe it's really all the same calling bringing hope
to its residents with the Bible and affordable housing. And
by the end of the year, this reverend will have
fifty affordable homes that they work to help folks own
(02:31):
and flourish right there in their neighborhood. If you've ever
wondered what it looks like to stop talking about change
and actually build it brick by brick, block by block.
I cannot wait for you to meet Kevis right after
these brief messages from our general sponsors.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Reverend Heavis Harding, how are you? You know, well, happy
to be.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Here, Welcome to Memphis fluid this morning. Huh yes, everybody Keavis?
I think is it Kevis or doctor Harding or pastor Arding?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Well?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
How am I to address you, sir?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, you get address me as Kevist, but I say
my professional name is Reverend doctor Kevis Jay Harding.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
But like you said, I knew I was in trouble,
like when you bill really money. It's really a French
name is Kvas, which is a Kavas is a h
I love the name. Uh Cavas is in French, is
in the French Alps. It's a place of protection. Really,
so they would say get into Kavas if an avalanche
or something came. Ah, you got it. But then we
(03:47):
take that same name bringing to America. You know, we
call it the same place, but we call it the Crevis,
which is a crack of the rock.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I got it. So you're a safe safe yeah, got it?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So so everybody the doctor Reverend Kevis Harding, who we're
going to call Kevis from this point to Fine. It's
the pastor and executive director is a pastor. He's the
executive director of the Hope Community Development Corporation in Witchdal, Kansas.
Was kind of enough to fly into Memphis this morning
to join us and tell story. Had a fascinating trip
(04:23):
you've had. We had a guest.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I don't know what.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
One of the funniest guys I've ever met in my life,
a guy named Bob Muzakowski.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Is that Am I pronouncing that right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
It's a Muzakhowski or a butcher myself, just h But anyway,
he's a Chicago guy, okay, and he has really invested
in the inner city of Chicago, I think the West Side.
And he's this like.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Old school Irish Chicago and gruff guy that played football
and got into bar fights and had a drinking problem
one time his life. It has this massive heart and
he is as plain spoken as it comes. And if anybody
hadn't listened to his episode, you have to look it up.
But the reason I'm talking about Bob and you're Wichitaw
(05:13):
in Chicago is he said something that's really interesting. And
he said, we always tell folks to do better and
get out of the hood, and he said the problem
is when people get successful and they get out of
the hood, that it only gets worse because all of
(05:33):
the people who have success that leave the hood continued
to make it a talent desert.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yes, I agree with that. Well, you haven't done that.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
You're you're the antithesis of what Bob calls out and everybody.
Kevis grew up in Wichitaal's North Side, which is now
called the near north Side.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I think as it's grown in northeast, northeast what I
say north side. Yeah, there was.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
A north side that we called the north End though,
or I now say, particularly where my brown, brown brothers
and sisters live.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
We got to black and brown, I got it.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And uh, but same zip code six, four, six, seven, eight,
all those zip codes.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yes, so you grew up there.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
You played college football out of state, which we're going
to explore a little bit just because that sounds fun.
You became a police officer, and then yeah, the same neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Everything is in the same neighborhood.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And he became a pastor, and now you're a community activist,
all in the same neighborhood, which is I think phenomenal.
So tell us about just a little bit about how
you're raised in wich Dall's North Side and you know
(06:50):
what that neighborhood looks like, because I think that gives
us perspective. And then the football thing and the journey
to being a copy well.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, like you said, morning raised in which you too,
I still know my address. Now the home's been sold,
but I wish I could have balled it, but it's
I grew I grew up at fifteen thirty. Well, I
grew up with a single parent mom, where we moved
a lot in that neighborhood. But my base was my
mom's parents, which were my grandparents. And my grandfather really
(07:23):
been the role model in my life, and so I
grew up with him. He's you know, in construction, so
I lived with him in summertimes. I even lived with
him for a middle part of my middle school years.
And that was home to me because it was what
we called base. It was like fifteen thirty three North
(07:44):
piet which you tell Kansas six seven two one four
two six three two four.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Nine to two. I still know all of that. Ever
got lost.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I knew I could say I live in fifteen thirty
three North piet which you tell Kansas, the phone everything.
My my grandparents are Curtis and Shaquita Wilson, those but
so I grew up there, went to school the local
schools there from from elementary to high school. But I
went to a lot of different middle schools and high
school just because my mother had me when she was eighteen,
(08:15):
well turning nineteen, and then she I had a brother
and sister.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
After that my sister and then my brother. My brother's
deceased now.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
But as a hard working woman at eighteen with no degree,
always worked took care of us. I'm you know, people
say you're poor like p O R Like we were
p O No, I mean cause we were. I mean
for me, we always had something to eat. We was
(08:43):
always clothed. But the older you get, you look back
and go, man, how my mom did that. But she
did it all through her twenties. But we always had
to move because of this affordability of homeownership. She never
was a homeowner. She became a homeowner late in life
through marriage with her husband, who has a home. She
now lives in Winston Salem, North Carolina. But but growing
(09:08):
up and went it's tall.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
That was that was a that was home.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I could I remember, you know, you know this bigion.
I could get on my bicycle and ride north and
south and that whole neighborhood of that two zip codes
six seven two eight and six seven two and four
and you knew. I mean back in those days, the seventies,
if I got in trouble down the street, it got
home before I did, right, Those are you know, those
(09:36):
kind of challenges, And I call them challenges because you
didn't want to get in trouble. But that's that was
that kind of feel, and that was my childhood growing
up in that neighborhood. Friends in that neighborhood play sports.
That was my outlet. Uh in all kids dreams back
then was I'm going to go to the NFL. That
(09:58):
that didn't happen. But you did play college ball, Yeah,
play college ball, and I had a tempt college should
well free agent.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I can't walk on for the NFL.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I went to the Chiefs and basically got cut, you know,
things for coming up.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
So you went to Hutchison Community. I went to Hutchison Community.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Well out of high school, went to Hutchison Community College,
which is forty five minutes outside. Would you tell the
great school got my degree in criminal justice?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (10:29):
And then UTEP came and recruited me in Texas, Texall yeah,
I said, University University of Texas ut EPTA in my
back in my wagering days, they were always good enough
to cover and they always played teams that were UTUB
(10:52):
back in the day. Would always they'd take on Texas.
They'd play anybody we played.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I played Texas, I played not Surprising, not Surprise, and
UTAP ut e P we would. We had a fun
acronym for them, which was because they were always competitive
with the bigger teams, was you take them points?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Okay I didn't know that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
So if like UTEP was a twenty point underdog that
Texas bet on UTUP because they may not win, but
they were going to cover, that's you. You take them points,
U tap and uh. Eighty eight we we you're gonna
love this on ad. You like this cause it's close,
it's in Mississippi. But eighty eight we went to end
Up Business Bowl in Shreetport, and which I apply. We're
(11:38):
we're praying for preparing for the game and I'm dB,
and our coach kept say, hey, guys, we gotta really
watch this guy from something miss. His name is Favor,
no Favor, We call him Favor. So the whole time
we're like, man, we gotta watch this Favor. And then
when you get out to the game, we're in drills
and a couple of completions, as Brent farr I said,
his name's not Favorite, and that's you got. And he
(12:04):
was a fun guy. We because you know bowl games,
you actually you hit the out, you eat together, you
do stuff together, and so with like and uh, looking back,
you're going, man, and did not know I was hanging
out with a future Hall of Famer. Yes, and they
beat us too though. So you get your degree in
(12:25):
criminal justice. You played football, You wanted to be in
the NFL. You tried to walk on, I think to
the Cowboys and the Chiefs, the Cheeves, not that you
know what. The Cowboys gave me a letter, but the Raiders,
cow you know all the let me tell you something stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
You play four years of college football and you make
it the bowl games and you even get trying to
be a free agent.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
You play little.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Ball if you were bad, Oh no, yeah, but just
well what I discovered, and that's my tell kids say, no,
are you gonna make You're not every you know that
you're not going to get there. But when you get
to that level what I call a cream and the
cream and when you know the coaches up in that
are Thigga says, oh, hey, you're great, but we just
(13:06):
want this. Butch say, you'd like to fall the kind
of screen. Oh I know, and it's time.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I mean, I have a friend that that has a
super Bowl ring, got a really good player and his
old school coach she used to say, more people making
to heaven than making the NFL.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You better protect this spot.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yes, and now a few messages from our general sponsors.
But first, if you live in the Atlanta or Ozaki
county areas, we've still got the launch meetings for your
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out in rs VP at a n F Atlanta dot
(13:49):
org and a n F Ozaki dot org.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
That's o z a u k Ee dot org. We'll
be right back, all.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Right, So the NFL is off the table for you
got my degree, Dome, but you got your degree in
criminal justice and and even though you're at you taking points. Also,
this witch tall thing is is home and I read
I think you wanted to be an FBI that didn't
work out because you didn't speak another language or something,
(14:34):
and you said, you know what, I'm going back home
and I'm going to be a cop.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Well, well, actually the FBI when I cause I actually applied,
I was ready to go to Qualito, and they said, well,
do you speak Another.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Reason why they were they were recruiting in l Passa.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
They thought most of the students who were in the
pastor spoke sp Hispanics. Yeah, and I'm always taken as
a Dominican Republican or you know.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
People say like, so you got to speak Spanish. I'm like, no,
I don't speak.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
And I can kick myself because I was immersed in
El Paso, Texas.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
How I learned was the cuss words cut you out
pretty good in Spanish. No reference, let's let's let's be
careful here.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I never knew God that I knew I had a
heart for service, but I never knew it was the
ministry to being a pastor. It was like youth involvement,
helping kids off the streets, erasing teardrop gain signs. That
was my I was street ministry and so when they
(15:38):
said the FBI said, hey, we want you, but can
you go back. Either stay in l pass so and
do three years as a police officer, or come back home.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I'm going back home. I know the streets. I know that,
I know.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So the FAI said, if you'll go get some practical
experiences of college. Also you don't have the language, you
can come back and maybe we can apply. You got
to make pass all the time. So you go home
and your cop. And I loved it.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I was a you know, I was the first community
police officer when it was when it was a big
thing in the nineties. You know, you got the because
it was more proactive. It was it was not reacting policing.
For those on notes, the police work is very reactive.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You drive around your.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Car and you wait for him to call you two
forty two, we have so and so at so and
so place in ten four and you go and you're
But when community policing came, I was like, oh, I
really love this because they let me go from listening
to the radio and being reactive, but I can go
and create, like taking a street called ghetto and any
(16:42):
radicated and I said, why are you putting a street
called ghetto in the ghetto, which I didn't call it
a ghetto, I called it the hood because I was
trying to explain what youita. There is really no ghetto.
It's a black neighborhood. But let me go show you
what the ghetto is. And from what I've seen in
the seventies back east, like this is just a poor
black neighborhood. So as a community police officer, I was
(17:05):
able to bring the city manager out and remove this
true street name called ghetto. Now is a walkway with
binges from a church into the neighborhood. So that was
my our neighborhood cleanups going in communities or this is
where the housing park came in. It's working with seniors
and finding out they live in their house but they
(17:26):
can't fix it, the roofs leaking, don't have the money
to fix it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And you saw this as a police officer. As a
police officer, there's a.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Police officer that we're aware of and he's speaking the
community policing. But this is what his goal was, right,
His goal was to get invited into the areas he
patrolled the neighbors he patrolled. First step was get invited
in somebody's front yard of a conversation with them. Yeah,
second step was to get invited on the porch, and
(17:55):
the third step was to get invited in their home.
And once you, as a police officer, had an trust
to the community to get in the front yard, on
the porch and in the home, that then you were
truly fighting crime because you were you were hopping it
from happening in the first place.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I love Do you tell that officer, I like the
medium that was me that I mean, I literally and
well it's not I'll put one more step to that.
And I bet he could add this on here not
only get invited to the home, but didn't.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Sit at their table with him, Like that's actually what
he said was sit in their home and eat.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Eat when you break bread with a family, your your family.
So were you doing that? Yes?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So what happened is and and my police officer, and
I love my I love police working on it. But
what I what happened was as I did that build
that kind of relationship because it's about relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Is that.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Uh, even when something went down, I could be ten
miles away and I would get a call, uh harding,
can you go to F one? We call on F
one like private channels. Then you go, hey, can you
come over here? They won't talk to me unless you're here.
Now get there. We saw a whole crime.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
But see that's the deal when you as when people
see behind the badge and see the human being and
they don't see the uniform first. They see the human
being first because you have alop relationship with them. Yes,
now you can. Now you can do that work. So
how long were you a police officer?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I was from nine, I graduated ninety one and I
was on til ninety five.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
In four years.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yes, and I didn't It wasn't that I was I
didn't love police work. It was because I was getting
prepared to go to seminary to be United Methodist pastor.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Well, see that's what that's what's weird. How common is
it for a cop to become a pastor? And what
is that all about?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Why? Because you went to be a cop to go
to the FI but somewhere.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
In there you transition, so you don't want to be
a pastor?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So what was that about?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Bill? My goal was three years I was going to.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
I even told the police department, Hey, I'm doing it
for three years so I can go be an FBI agents.
What I thought my goal was if I since I
didn't make the NFL, I had a degree in criminal
justice with abnormal psychology and political science. And in that
process at my local church, which was at the time
(20:18):
Saint Mark United Methodist Church and which you ta, and
I remember the pastor saying, hey, you're pretty good with
the kids, God, particularly young man.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Do you want to be a part of our youth
pastor ministry?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
So I was part of this, the ministry as a
lay person, a lay person and while I'm still a
police officer, and I would come and do that and
then and then I was like, by the way, since
you're doing such a good job, can you be our
youth pastor. So I'm still a cop and I'm part
time youth pastor. I mean when I say part time,
it wasn't about funding. I didn't care about the money.
(20:50):
It was this, I get to hang out with these
kids and that ministry just next thing I know, I'm
I'm sitting there with my wife and rolling for seminary
to be a full time elder in the United Methodist Church. Uh,
and some of my friends in college go Kevis.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
You know it was Mayhem. My nickname was Mayam. Uh.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Your nickname was Mayhem like the commercial day but to
this day, I'm still as a progressive insurance and the
guys out here that.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Was me on the football. You know, you know you football?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
You know, remember right Dell and bike back then was
bike Rember putting bike all over your shirt.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
You're gonna know you hit.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
I'm a tattooed these screws on you Listen.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I know I'm old when you could hit people and
that wouldn't flank football. Oh.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I still feel like I could hit somebody one time,
everything on me fall apart.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
But that was that's.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
So so in that in that process of trends, listening
from and again you got to hear this Bill. I
love what I did as a police officer, particularly the
community policing work, because it allowed me to literally do
the stuff I grew up doing with my grandfather, which
(22:14):
was construction. Uh, particularly with seniors. That's where my heart
was was how do I help these seniors keep their
homes because a lot of them were losing homes because they,
like you said earlier, we grew up in the neighborhoods,
and we become successful.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
When we grow we move away.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So you got these parents who still live there, like
my grandparents, all of my uncles and aunts and including
my mom, they all moved out. None of them lived there,
some of them La Denver, and I mean there's not
I don't have an uncle and aunt from my grandparents'
side that actually lives in Wichita.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Are in that neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
They're all somewhere from Los Angeles to Oregon that you know.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Exactly what Bob was talking about.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
A little money, you have a little success, and you leave, Yes,
but over generations of that, think of what's what what
ends up developing? Once everybody with talent lea yes, and
well and.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
For what you tell.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Part of what I'm trying to hopefully let people understand
is you don't have to leave to be successful. So
that's why I look when I got into the affordable housing.
Part of that was because we're trying to we're trying
to overcome decades of systemic sin, which we call redlining.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
We're going to get to that in a minute, but
take us through transition from a cop to a pastor
full time.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Oh scary for one, because I was like, if yous
about your drug problem?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
First?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, I always tell people I had a drug problem.
Not the common drug pot, but I got drugged at
church every Sunday.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
So my mone, my mom, she was, she's to this day.
I mean, if I pulled my phone out, probably she's
got something about God. She's telling me I'm the pastor,
and she she's still she's still.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Telling me maybe the pastor.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yes, but she she she was so faithful and growing
us up, and so we had to go.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Cha.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
It was not which I tell people all the time,
until you get grown, and particularly in my house, Uh,
you didn't.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Have an option about going to church. You you went.
It wasn't. She didn't come to your bedroom and go
do you want to go to church? You know? And
to this day, I still get.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Your in there, go to church and nothing. And she
would turn her gospel channel on. It was like radio channel.
He would turn on, uh on the Lord side. It
was a song I'm on the Lord side.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I had the same drug problem. So you had the
same trug and you.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Well, so I be sleeping and she would turn that
music and I'd be like, it's time to go.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
It was so man, know, it was so bad.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Church was late, but I would get mad because you
had to be school on through the weekday by eight
eight thirty and here this church wasn't till eleven o'clock
and I'm mad because I got to get up to
go somewhere and this. So anyway, that's that's how I
went from, you know, growing up in church, so I
knew God.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
But I fell in love with Jesus.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
In college and a Christian fellowship association with the guys
with the FCA, and I said, Christian Fellowship of Christian
athletes and where we would didn't have to be a
you know, you know, because you know your nicknames mayem
you're you know, you're at the bars after the game
and then someone invites you to this uh And to
(25:39):
this day, I still share that story about this. How
I fell in love with Jesus was a I was
at this preacher he was I couldn't even tell you
his name. It was a very large church, and he
did a story about Jesus following him and he's Jesus.
He promised Jesus that wherever he went, he said, Jesus,
(26:00):
wherever I go I'm gonna take you with me, and
so Jesus and he uses this man as this illustration
of Jesus is following him. So why I'm sitting there
at this nineteen year old kid and him illustrating the
story and this guy who's Jesus following him and he's
following him all around. He loves it. And then his
(26:21):
phone rings is you know, Mega Church. The phone rings
and he picks up and says, hey, man, we're having
a party. You want to go hang out? He says sure,
and so Jesus follows and he's he says, no, Jesus,
you have to stay. I'm going to go, you know,
hang out. My god, I need some space. But Jesus,
but you just told me wherever you go, I go,
and wherever you know, vice versa. And then the most
(26:43):
powerful thing he did was is when he was really
ready to go, and he did about three times. He
finally took Jesus and stood them still, and he hung
him on the cross and he told him you stay
right here, Jesus until I get back. And then he
turned around and looked It's like he's looking and right
at me, but he's probably looking at all of us,
and he was like, how do of us tell Jesus
(27:04):
that how much we love them, but soon's being ready
to go do some dirt. We put them up, we
domesticate them, we hide them away. I was like, Lord,
I don't ever want to do that. And I didn't
know it, but my life changed right there. So I'll
still made him on the football field, but on the
(27:25):
on the streets, I wanted to be Christ, which was
a carbonser son, hands and feet of Christ in a community.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Doing what Christ did was building community. So so I'm sorry, no,
it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
But I was just gonna say so the transition from
a police officer to a reverend seems like the groundwork
was laid many years before that, and.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
I didn't know it. I just thought it was service.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I just thought, okay, so when I went So, when
I got into community, you know, policing, God was my focus.
Was this community. Policing would let me do that minute tree,
but it took me further.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
So you began the ordained ministry in the United Methodist
Church in ninety five, became a deacon in ninety eight,
and then you were appointed senior pastor at del Delrose
United Methodist Church in which dal Kansas. Actually, when I
read that, I kind of giggled because you hear Delrose
(28:43):
United Methodist Church in which dal Kansas. I picture this
small community, a cool little church. Oh no, it turns
out you've been there for over twenty five years and
when you showed up there about twenty five members and
now there's eight hundred.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Well I always say eight hundred on paper. I get
two fifty on a Sunday. Okay, but still yeah, we
So I was sent, I was appointed.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I sent.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
I can't United methods. You're appointed and you're considered a tenery.
That's a blessing for me is that I'm in an
urban setting and doing such a good job. I was
appointed by the bishop to a church to do a transition,
which was my first book, Can These Bones Live, which
was when God takes Ezekiel and he sits them down
in the valley of these dry bones six see six
(29:36):
seven two one four six seven two one eight in
the hood, and he says, can these bones live in Ezekiel?
Which I said to God was yes, give me a
shot with me having an entrepreneur spirit, not knowing what
the entrepreneur meant growing up doing it all my life
with my grandfather who was my example. And so we
(29:57):
took this church that they you had two years to
turn it around, from ninety eight to two thousand. All
we're going to do, like a lot of churches, is
closed because it's a very large church. It was a
large facility, very large, and it was an all white
congregation in all white neighborhood when what we call transitional
was the neighborhood transition.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
So the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
That's why I said near northeast because it keeps moving
out so where I grew up, where I'm at now
that I called the invisible line. Police officers we call
it the invisible line. Most people can still.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Call it that now.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
It's like you knew when you cross a certain street,
I'm in the hood. That line kept moving to where
Dale Roch was inside that circle.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Now, so it transitioned from a large, all white church
to an urban church, very urban. And when you showed up,
there's twenty five members.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Everybody left. My question is.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Anybody who pays attention to anything, whether you're a Christian
or faithful or not. Church membership, church attendance, all of
those numbers in the United States.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Have been on a decline. Oh major, Yes, and you're almost.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Following the decline that happened in Europe in the early
nineteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
It's very similar, very it's very very similar.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It's still still so how with that data and those
pressures against you, when church membership and church attendance is declining,
how have you grown from twenty five members to two
fifty regular attenders? And however many quote membership on the rolls,
how's that happened?
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Well, I go back to the former police office officerp
You're talking about going to the neighborhood and all the
way back to the table. Still do that, staying connected,
building relationships with men in the community.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
So you went from community policing to community pastoring. Yes,
the same set of arresting people and.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Dragging them to jail. You're dragging them to a congregation,
to an AA meeting and get them off drugs.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I'm dragging them to all men's meeting where I sit
there and we call it chopping up. I'm part of
It's called the smokers and jokers. It's a cigar lounge.
I go in there and hang out all these guys,
and I'm just I.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Want to go.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
We should have recorded. And I love Bill and I
are both huge cigar fans.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
He actually has a part time job, that's all.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
I work on the army all at a cigar shop
at night. We gotta going on there, but I'm hoping
it Bill comes in Wichita one day we can.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
We literally literally have a week. We bought our own
store front and I'll have to show it to you.
It's it's our it's our cigar. When you were, you
own it, yes, part of it. You think any other
pastor on the cigar what's a group of us.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
It's a cold. It's a cold.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I'm Presbyterian, so everything's okay. And moderation of everything, everything everything.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So yes, I've I've smoked cigars and pastors Drake wild
with my pastors, you know all of that.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I don't know how many of them own a cigar shop.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
That's no, I don't own it.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Well, we own it because it's it's it's yeah, and
we all pay one hundred dollars a month, dudes.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Which tastes care.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Electricity, the water, the trash, it and that's what we do.
Study and I don't do like oh, break out the Bible.
And but I just.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Like you have cigar burns on your Bible.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
No I haven't, because you know what's so crazy? This
has become the I mean, we use this everybody, that's right,
So why going in with those guys and we'll just
chop it up with how are you doing with your kids?
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Fothering?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
So you grew your church. What I find interesting is
you grew this church. Let's be honest. I'm not putting
words in your mouth, but it sounds like this is
an area where it suffered extreme white flight.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yes, yep.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
And when that happens, and like you and like you say,
the hood expands and the white flight happens, it creates
these abysses. And you could see that maybe in the
sixties and seventies and eighties, this church grew and grew
and grew it was and then as the hood expanded,
(34:22):
the congregation left in the neighborhood changed and it has
to be repopulated or shut down exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And you repopulated it.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And the same thing as a pastor that you did
as a police officer, which is community communitistoring, yes, which
I'm making that up.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
But that's what I like no.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
I think if it's not a real phrase, it should
be because I think every pastor should be in the
community beyond the four walls of the church.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Church.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Churches were not meant for us to build them. You know,
I love the movie, you know, Building Nato come to
fill the dreams and they will no, no, no church.
We did the same thing buildings, the big mega churches.
Nothing against megachurches, but that's the thing that I call
the nineties. In two thousands, you have a pocket of those,
but your neighborhood and we're considered a neighborhood church, local church.
(35:15):
So you're looking at two zip codes that I work
with in particularly six the two one four six them
two oh eight. Is that be the hands and feet
of Christ in that in that community?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So we went, you know, providing community development through home
ownership programs, financial literacy, class men, ministry, women's men, use me.
But it doesn't have to be in the church in
that building, although we have a lot of stuff there,
but it's constantly outward looking, very missional driven. How do
(35:48):
we make a difference? How do we when we from
the simple little thing is a blessing box that can't
stay full because we feel it, and it's empty because
the homeless population. And how do you take those people
and get them into transitional housing? You no literally sleeping
around the church. My uh my mom always said, don't
(36:08):
confuse that building with a steeple.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Oh, I said, what do you mean. She said, that's
not a church. So that's a church building. It's a building.
She said, you can have a church on the field
somewhere people are in it. Yes, church, we are the church.
And that's what you're saying, ya is for the church
to be active, it has to get out of its
building and get into the community.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, beyond the four walls of the church.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
There's actually two lines I love that relates to this.
So I think it's MLK said church is not a
place you go to, but a place you go from.
And then one of our guests, I feel like it
was Rona Pulson with Isaiah seventeen house. But she said,
like so many of these church programs, like they'll have
their little ice cream social and like think about people
who are like having trouble in their lives right now.
(36:52):
You think they want to like come with all these
pretty white people who got all their together and like
it's really nice clothes. Like that's the last place they
want to be. They want to be like, actually, where
you can help them in their need. That's the greatest
way to grow the church.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And I preached like this or without this jacket. I
haven't had a robe bone in forever because folks in
that neighborhood needs to know that I'm not coming out
there with this big.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Religious you know, thus as the Lord. But hey, this
is what I'm talking down to him.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I'm telling, I'm telling, I'm telling on me half the time.
My wife hates it. He got to tell all your.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Business, don't all your business?
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Yeah, but but that lets people know you're relating to them.
And like, I like what you said. It's uh, the
you know, not the place you go to. Well, okay, Bill,
you like this Sunday particular? You Sunday to me, it's
halftime hmm, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Wednesday's because Bible
(37:51):
study is kind of like that, you know, we're practicing.
And and now like you said that, so Sunday I'm
bringing everybody into the into the locker room.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
That was a good week. Last week. Some of us
got beat up.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
You fell over here over here, let me we're gonna
and then we'll practice this to next week through the
class and then after I get through it Sunday, like
you said, now, let let us go back out.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
That's what the whole lights mean.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
And when so when you see, as they say, the
Methodist Church are even Catholic when they bring the kids,
bring the lights. So the light is representative of Christ
that you bring it. You're bringing the light from out
of the world into a place of worship where you
can worship and as simble together to empower and to
encourage halftime. Hey, don't forget it. That's what we got
(38:37):
to go do when we go back out there. And
so when we and then when we finish worship, you
take that same light. If you remember that, you take
that same light and you take it out. So I
tell people the light is a representation of we come
to worship.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
That's why I hate it people call church service. No,
that's not church's.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Worship, particularly Sundays is about worship where you come to
give God praise that got you through the week. Then
once you finish worship, halftime, Now, let's go back out
and be the light of Jesus Christ in this dark
world and you see them back out, and then I
try to say, instead of me just preaching from this pulpit,
(39:14):
now I'm gonna show you because I'm gonna go do
it too.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
And that concludes Part one of our conversation with Kevis Harding,
and you don't want to miss part two.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
It's now available to listen to. Together.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Guys, we can change this country, but it starts with you.
I'll see in part two
One of my favorite stories is a single parent raising
his two kids, got.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
In some trouble.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
They're homeless, looking for housing. I'm trying to not get emotional.
That's why I'm looking away right now.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Look at people. I started crying.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm a crier. So I'm trying to tell because I
get the emotion. See this person who's trying to change
his life. I mean, he wanted to change. He's like,
I'm through with drugs. I'm sick of him. For him
to I feel like a tears coming. I just.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I see his face.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
But to give him keys and that was that was
that was a great, great great And so he's a
single father, get fighting drugs, gone through transitions, homeless, to
give him a key to a three bedroom one bad.
Do you think we eventually on that home?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yes? Ah, yeah, that's the beauty. I got pictures. I
show it to you. He will in that house one day.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.
I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, I'm a father,
I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm a football coach in inner
city Memphis. And that last part, somehow it led to
an oscar for the film.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
About one of my teams. That movie is called Undefeated.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Guys, I believe our country's problems will never be solved
by a bunch of fancy people in nice suits using
big words that nobody ever uses on CNN and Fox,
but rather by an army of normal folks. That's us,
just you and me deciding, Hey, you know what, maybe
I can help. That's what Reverend Kevis Harding, the voice
(01:49):
you just heard, has done. Kevis grew up in one
of Wichita's most challenging neighborhoods, played college football in Texas,
and could have more easily pursued the American dream somewhere else,
but instead Kevis came home. He served that same neighborhood
as a police officer, then as a pastor there, and
(02:10):
even has gotten a double life as a real estate developer.
Or maybe it's really all the same calling bringing hope
to its residents with the Bible and affordable housing. And
by the end of the year, this reverend will have
fifty affordable homes that they work to help folks own
(02:31):
and flourish right there in their neighborhood. If you've ever
wondered what it looks like to stop talking about change
and actually build it brick by brick, block by block.
I cannot wait for you to meet Kevis right after
these brief messages from our general sponsors.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Reverend Heavis Harding, how are you? You know, well, happy
to be.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Here, Welcome to Memphis fluid this morning. Huh yes, everybody Keavis?
I think is it Kevis or doctor Harding or pastor Arding?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Well?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
How am I to address you, sir?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, you get address me as Kevist, but I say
my professional name is Reverend doctor Kevis Jay Harding.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
But like you said, I knew I was in trouble,
like when you bill really money. It's really a French
name is Kvas, which is a Kavas is a h
I love the name. Uh Cavas is in French, is
in the French Alps. It's a place of protection. Really,
so they would say get into Kavas if an avalanche
or something came. Ah, you got it. But then we
(03:47):
take that same name bringing to America. You know, we
call it the same place, but we call it the Crevis,
which is a crack of the rock.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I got it. So you're a safe safe yeah, got it?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So so everybody the doctor Reverend Kevis Harding, who we're
going to call Kevis from this point to Fine. It's
the pastor and executive director is a pastor. He's the
executive director of the Hope Community Development Corporation in Witchdal, Kansas.
Was kind of enough to fly into Memphis this morning
to join us and tell story. Had a fascinating trip
(04:23):
you've had. We had a guest.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I don't know what.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
One of the funniest guys I've ever met in my life,
a guy named Bob Muzakowski.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Is that Am I pronouncing that right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
It's a Muzakhowski or a butcher myself, just h But anyway,
he's a Chicago guy, okay, and he has really invested
in the inner city of Chicago, I think the West Side.
And he's this like.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Old school Irish Chicago and gruff guy that played football
and got into bar fights and had a drinking problem
one time his life. It has this massive heart and
he is as plain spoken as it comes. And if anybody
hadn't listened to his episode, you have to look it up.
But the reason I'm talking about Bob and you're Wichitaw
(05:13):
in Chicago is he said something that's really interesting. And
he said, we always tell folks to do better and
get out of the hood, and he said the problem
is when people get successful and they get out of
the hood, that it only gets worse because all of
(05:33):
the people who have success that leave the hood continued
to make it a talent desert.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yes, I agree with that. Well, you haven't done that.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
You're you're the antithesis of what Bob calls out and everybody.
Kevis grew up in Wichitaal's North Side, which is now
called the near north Side.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I think as it's grown in northeast, northeast what I
say north side. Yeah, there was.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
A north side that we called the north End though,
or I now say, particularly where my brown, brown brothers
and sisters live.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
We got to black and brown, I got it.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And uh, but same zip code six, four, six, seven, eight,
all those zip codes.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yes, so you grew up there.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
You played college football out of state, which we're going
to explore a little bit just because that sounds fun.
You became a police officer, and then yeah, the same neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Everything is in the same neighborhood.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And he became a pastor, and now you're a community activist,
all in the same neighborhood, which is I think phenomenal.
So tell us about just a little bit about how
you're raised in wich Dall's North Side and you know
(06:50):
what that neighborhood looks like, because I think that gives
us perspective. And then the football thing and the journey
to being a copy well.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, like you said, morning raised in which you too,
I still know my address. Now the home's been sold,
but I wish I could have balled it, but it's
I grew I grew up at fifteen thirty. Well, I
grew up with a single parent mom, where we moved
a lot in that neighborhood. But my base was my
mom's parents, which were my grandparents. And my grandfather really
(07:23):
been the role model in my life, and so I
grew up with him. He's you know, in construction, so
I lived with him in summertimes. I even lived with
him for a middle part of my middle school years.
And that was home to me because it was what
we called base. It was like fifteen thirty three North
(07:44):
piet which you tell Kansas six seven two one four
two six three two four.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Nine to two. I still know all of that. Ever
got lost.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I knew I could say I live in fifteen thirty
three North piet which you tell Kansas, the phone everything.
My my grandparents are Curtis and Shaquita Wilson, those but
so I grew up there, went to school the local
schools there from from elementary to high school. But I
went to a lot of different middle schools and high
school just because my mother had me when she was eighteen,
(08:15):
well turning nineteen, and then she I had a brother
and sister.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
After that my sister and then my brother. My brother's
deceased now.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
But as a hard working woman at eighteen with no degree,
always worked took care of us. I'm you know, people
say you're poor like p O R Like we were
p O No, I mean cause we were. I mean
for me, we always had something to eat. We was
(08:43):
always clothed. But the older you get, you look back
and go, man, how my mom did that. But she
did it all through her twenties. But we always had
to move because of this affordability of homeownership. She never
was a homeowner. She became a homeowner late in life
through marriage with her husband, who has a home. She
now lives in Winston Salem, North Carolina. But but growing
(09:08):
up and went it's tall.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
That was that was a that was home.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I could I remember, you know, you know this bigion.
I could get on my bicycle and ride north and
south and that whole neighborhood of that two zip codes
six seven two eight and six seven two and four
and you knew. I mean back in those days, the seventies,
if I got in trouble down the street, it got
home before I did, right, Those are you know, those
(09:36):
kind of challenges, And I call them challenges because you
didn't want to get in trouble. But that's that was
that kind of feel, and that was my childhood growing
up in that neighborhood. Friends in that neighborhood play sports.
That was my outlet. Uh in all kids dreams back
then was I'm going to go to the NFL. That
(09:58):
that didn't happen. But you did play college ball, Yeah,
play college ball, and I had a tempt college should
well free agent.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I can't walk on for the NFL.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I went to the Chiefs and basically got cut, you know,
things for coming up.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
So you went to Hutchison Community. I went to Hutchison Community.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Well out of high school, went to Hutchison Community College,
which is forty five minutes outside. Would you tell the
great school got my degree in criminal justice?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (10:29):
And then UTEP came and recruited me in Texas, Texall yeah,
I said, University University of Texas ut EPTA in my
back in my wagering days, they were always good enough
to cover and they always played teams that were UTUB
(10:52):
back in the day. Would always they'd take on Texas.
They'd play anybody we played.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I played Texas, I played not Surprising, not Surprise, and
UTAP ut e P we would. We had a fun
acronym for them, which was because they were always competitive
with the bigger teams, was you take them points?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Okay I didn't know that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
So if like UTEP was a twenty point underdog that
Texas bet on UTUP because they may not win, but
they were going to cover, that's you. You take them points,
U tap and uh. Eighty eight we we you're gonna
love this on ad. You like this cause it's close,
it's in Mississippi. But eighty eight we went to end
Up Business Bowl in Shreetport, and which I apply. We're
(11:38):
we're praying for preparing for the game and I'm dB,
and our coach kept say, hey, guys, we gotta really
watch this guy from something miss. His name is Favor,
no Favor, We call him Favor. So the whole time
we're like, man, we gotta watch this Favor. And then
when you get out to the game, we're in drills
and a couple of completions, as Brent farr I said,
his name's not Favorite, and that's you got. And he
(12:04):
was a fun guy. We because you know bowl games,
you actually you hit the out, you eat together, you
do stuff together, and so with like and uh, looking back,
you're going, man, and did not know I was hanging
out with a future Hall of Famer. Yes, and they
beat us too though. So you get your degree in
(12:25):
criminal justice. You played football, You wanted to be in
the NFL. You tried to walk on, I think to
the Cowboys and the Chiefs, the Cheeves, not that you
know what. The Cowboys gave me a letter, but the Raiders,
cow you know all the let me tell you something stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
You play four years of college football and you make
it the bowl games and you even get trying to
be a free agent.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
You play little.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Ball if you were bad, Oh no, yeah, but just
well what I discovered, and that's my tell kids say, no,
are you gonna make You're not every you know that
you're not going to get there. But when you get
to that level what I call a cream and the
cream and when you know the coaches up in that
are Thigga says, oh, hey, you're great, but we just
(13:06):
want this. Butch say, you'd like to fall the kind
of screen. Oh I know, and it's time.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I mean, I have a friend that that has a
super Bowl ring, got a really good player and his
old school coach she used to say, more people making
to heaven than making the NFL.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
You better protect this spot.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yes, and now a few messages from our general sponsors.
But first, if you live in the Atlanta or Ozaki
county areas, we've still got the launch meetings for your
local service clubs coming up Sunday, March eighth. Check them
out in rs VP at a n F Atlanta dot
(13:49):
org and a n F Ozaki dot org.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
That's o z a u k Ee dot org. We'll
be right back, all.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Right, So the NFL is off the table for you
got my degree, Dome, but you got your degree in
criminal justice and and even though you're at you taking points. Also,
this witch tall thing is is home and I read
I think you wanted to be an FBI that didn't
work out because you didn't speak another language or something,
(14:34):
and you said, you know what, I'm going back home
and I'm going to be a cop.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Well, well, actually the FBI when I cause I actually applied,
I was ready to go to Qualito, and they said, well,
do you speak Another.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Reason why they were they were recruiting in l Passa.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
They thought most of the students who were in the
pastor spoke sp Hispanics. Yeah, and I'm always taken as
a Dominican Republican or you know.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
People say like, so you got to speak Spanish. I'm like, no,
I don't speak.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
And I can kick myself because I was immersed in
El Paso, Texas.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
How I learned was the cuss words cut you out
pretty good in Spanish. No reference, let's let's let's be
careful here.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I never knew God that I knew I had a
heart for service, but I never knew it was the
ministry to being a pastor. It was like youth involvement,
helping kids off the streets, erasing teardrop gain signs. That
was my I was street ministry and so when they
(15:38):
said the FBI said, hey, we want you, but can
you go back. Either stay in l pass so and
do three years as a police officer, or come back home.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I'm going back home. I know the streets. I know that,
I know.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
So the FAI said, if you'll go get some practical
experiences of college. Also you don't have the language, you
can come back and maybe we can apply. You got
to make pass all the time. So you go home
and your cop. And I loved it.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I was a you know, I was the first community
police officer when it was when it was a big
thing in the nineties. You know, you got the because
it was more proactive. It was it was not reacting policing.
For those on notes, the police work is very reactive.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You drive around your.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Car and you wait for him to call you two
forty two, we have so and so at so and
so place in ten four and you go and you're
But when community policing came, I was like, oh, I
really love this because they let me go from listening
to the radio and being reactive, but I can go
and create, like taking a street called ghetto and any
(16:42):
radicated and I said, why are you putting a street
called ghetto in the ghetto, which I didn't call it
a ghetto, I called it the hood because I was
trying to explain what youita. There is really no ghetto.
It's a black neighborhood. But let me go show you
what the ghetto is. And from what I've seen in
the seventies back east, like this is just a poor
black neighborhood. So as a community police officer, I was
(17:05):
able to bring the city manager out and remove this
true street name called ghetto. Now is a walkway with
binges from a church into the neighborhood. So that was
my our neighborhood cleanups going in communities or this is
where the housing park came in. It's working with seniors
and finding out they live in their house but they
(17:26):
can't fix it, the roofs leaking, don't have the money
to fix it.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
And you saw this as a police officer. As a
police officer, there's a.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Police officer that we're aware of and he's speaking the
community policing. But this is what his goal was, right,
His goal was to get invited into the areas he
patrolled the neighbors he patrolled. First step was get invited
in somebody's front yard of a conversation with them. Yeah,
second step was to get invited on the porch, and
(17:55):
the third step was to get invited in their home.
And once you, as a police officer, had an trust
to the community to get in the front yard, on
the porch and in the home, that then you were
truly fighting crime because you were you were hopping it
from happening in the first place.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I love Do you tell that officer, I like the
medium that was me that I mean, I literally and
well it's not I'll put one more step to that.
And I bet he could add this on here not
only get invited to the home, but didn't.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Sit at their table with him, Like that's actually what
he said was sit in their home and eat.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Eat when you break bread with a family, your your family.
So were you doing that? Yes?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So what happened is and and my police officer, and
I love my I love police working on it. But
what I what happened was as I did that build
that kind of relationship because it's about relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Is that.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Uh, even when something went down, I could be ten
miles away and I would get a call, uh harding,
can you go to F one? We call on F
one like private channels. Then you go, hey, can you
come over here? They won't talk to me unless you're here.
Now get there. We saw a whole crime.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
But see that's the deal when you as when people
see behind the badge and see the human being and
they don't see the uniform first. They see the human
being first because you have alop relationship with them. Yes,
now you can. Now you can do that work. So
how long were you a police officer?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I was from nine, I graduated ninety one and I
was on til ninety five.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
In four years.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yes, and I didn't It wasn't that I was I
didn't love police work. It was because I was getting
prepared to go to seminary to be United Methodist pastor.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Well, see that's what that's what's weird. How common is
it for a cop to become a pastor? And what
is that all about?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Why? Because you went to be a cop to go
to the FI but somewhere.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
In there you transition, so you don't want to be
a pastor?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So what was that about?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
So?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Bill? My goal was three years I was going to.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
I even told the police department, Hey, I'm doing it
for three years so I can go be an FBI agents.
What I thought my goal was if I since I
didn't make the NFL, I had a degree in criminal
justice with abnormal psychology and political science. And in that
process at my local church, which was at the time
(20:18):
Saint Mark United Methodist Church and which you ta, and
I remember the pastor saying, hey, you're pretty good with
the kids, God, particularly young man.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Do you want to be a part of our youth
pastor ministry?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
So I was part of this, the ministry as a
lay person, a lay person and while I'm still a
police officer, and I would come and do that and
then and then I was like, by the way, since
you're doing such a good job, can you be our
youth pastor. So I'm still a cop and I'm part
time youth pastor. I mean when I say part time,
it wasn't about funding. I didn't care about the money.
(20:50):
It was this, I get to hang out with these
kids and that ministry just next thing I know, I'm
I'm sitting there with my wife and rolling for seminary
to be a full time elder in the United Methodist Church. Uh,
and some of my friends in college go Kevis.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
You know it was Mayhem. My nickname was Mayam. Uh.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Your nickname was Mayhem like the commercial day but to
this day, I'm still as a progressive insurance and the
guys out here that.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Was me on the football. You know, you know you football?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
You know, remember right Dell and bike back then was
bike Rember putting bike all over your shirt.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
You're gonna know you hit.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
I'm a tattooed these screws on you Listen.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I know I'm old when you could hit people and
that wouldn't flank football. Oh.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I still feel like I could hit somebody one time,
everything on me fall apart.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
But that was that's.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
So so in that in that process of trends, listening
from and again you got to hear this Bill. I
love what I did as a police officer, particularly the
community policing work, because it allowed me to literally do
the stuff I grew up doing with my grandfather, which
(22:14):
was construction. Uh, particularly with seniors. That's where my heart
was was how do I help these seniors keep their
homes because a lot of them were losing homes because they,
like you said earlier, we grew up in the neighborhoods,
and we become successful.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
When we grow we move away.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So you got these parents who still live there, like
my grandparents, all of my uncles and aunts and including
my mom, they all moved out. None of them lived there,
some of them La Denver, and I mean there's not
I don't have an uncle and aunt from my grandparents'
side that actually lives in Wichita.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Are in that neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
They're all somewhere from Los Angeles to Oregon that you know.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Exactly what Bob was talking about.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
A little money, you have a little success, and you leave, Yes,
but over generations of that, think of what's what what
ends up developing? Once everybody with talent lea yes, and
well and.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
For what you tell.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Part of what I'm trying to hopefully let people understand
is you don't have to leave to be successful. So
that's why I look when I got into the affordable housing.
Part of that was because we're trying to we're trying
to overcome decades of systemic sin, which we call redlining.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
We're going to get to that in a minute, but
take us through transition from a cop to a pastor
full time.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Oh scary for one, because I was like, if yous
about your drug problem?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
First?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, I always tell people I had a drug problem.
Not the common drug pot, but I got drugged at
church every Sunday.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
So my mone, my mom, she was, she's to this day.
I mean, if I pulled my phone out, probably she's
got something about God. She's telling me I'm the pastor,
and she she's still she's still.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Telling me maybe the pastor.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yes, but she she she was so faithful and growing
us up, and so we had to go.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Cha.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
It was not which I tell people all the time,
until you get grown, and particularly in my house, Uh,
you didn't.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Have an option about going to church. You you went.
It wasn't. She didn't come to your bedroom and go
do you want to go to church? You know? And
to this day, I still get.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Your in there, go to church and nothing. And she
would turn her gospel channel on. It was like radio channel.
He would turn on, uh on the Lord side. It
was a song I'm on the Lord side.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I had the same drug problem. So you had the
same trug and you.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Well, so I be sleeping and she would turn that
music and I'd be like, it's time to go.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
It was so man, know, it was so bad.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Church was late, but I would get mad because you
had to be school on through the weekday by eight
eight thirty and here this church wasn't till eleven o'clock
and I'm mad because I got to get up to
go somewhere and this. So anyway, that's that's how I
went from, you know, growing up in church, so I
knew God.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
But I fell in love with Jesus.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
In college and a Christian fellowship association with the guys
with the FCA, and I said, Christian Fellowship of Christian
athletes and where we would didn't have to be a
you know, you know, because you know your nicknames mayem
you're you know, you're at the bars after the game
and then someone invites you to this uh And to
(25:39):
this day, I still share that story about this. How
I fell in love with Jesus was a I was
at this preacher he was I couldn't even tell you
his name. It was a very large church, and he
did a story about Jesus following him and he's Jesus.
He promised Jesus that wherever he went, he said, Jesus,
(26:00):
wherever I go I'm gonna take you with me, and
so Jesus and he uses this man as this illustration
of Jesus is following him. So why I'm sitting there
at this nineteen year old kid and him illustrating the
story and this guy who's Jesus following him and he's
following him all around. He loves it. And then his
(26:21):
phone rings is you know, Mega Church. The phone rings
and he picks up and says, hey, man, we're having
a party. You want to go hang out? He says sure,
and so Jesus follows and he's he says, no, Jesus,
you have to stay. I'm going to go, you know,
hang out. My god, I need some space. But Jesus,
but you just told me wherever you go, I go,
and wherever you know, vice versa. And then the most
(26:43):
powerful thing he did was is when he was really
ready to go, and he did about three times. He
finally took Jesus and stood them still, and he hung
him on the cross and he told him you stay
right here, Jesus until I get back. And then he
turned around and looked It's like he's looking and right
at me, but he's probably looking at all of us,
and he was like, how do of us tell Jesus
(27:04):
that how much we love them, but soon's being ready
to go do some dirt. We put them up, we
domesticate them, we hide them away. I was like, Lord,
I don't ever want to do that. And I didn't
know it, but my life changed right there. So I'll
still made him on the football field, but on the
(27:25):
on the streets, I wanted to be Christ, which was
a carbonser son, hands and feet of Christ in a community.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Doing what Christ did was building community. So so I'm sorry, no,
it's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
But I was just gonna say so the transition from
a police officer to a reverend seems like the groundwork
was laid many years before that, and.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
I didn't know it. I just thought it was service.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I just thought, okay, so when I went So, when
I got into community, you know, policing, God was my focus.
Was this community. Policing would let me do that minute tree,
but it took me further.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
So you began the ordained ministry in the United Methodist
Church in ninety five, became a deacon in ninety eight,
and then you were appointed senior pastor at del Delrose
United Methodist Church in which dal Kansas. Actually, when I
read that, I kind of giggled because you hear Delrose
(28:43):
United Methodist Church in which dal Kansas. I picture this
small community, a cool little church. Oh no, it turns
out you've been there for over twenty five years and
when you showed up there about twenty five members and
now there's eight hundred.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Well I always say eight hundred on paper. I get
two fifty on a Sunday. Okay, but still yeah, we
So I was sent, I was appointed.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I sent.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
I can't United methods. You're appointed and you're considered a tenery.
That's a blessing for me is that I'm in an
urban setting and doing such a good job. I was
appointed by the bishop to a church to do a transition,
which was my first book, Can These Bones Live, which
was when God takes Ezekiel and he sits them down
in the valley of these dry bones six see six
(29:36):
seven two one four six seven two one eight in
the hood, and he says, can these bones live in Ezekiel?
Which I said to God was yes, give me a
shot with me having an entrepreneur spirit, not knowing what
the entrepreneur meant growing up doing it all my life
with my grandfather who was my example. And so we
(29:57):
took this church that they you had two years to
turn it around, from ninety eight to two thousand. All
we're going to do, like a lot of churches, is
closed because it's a very large church. It was a
large facility, very large, and it was an all white
congregation in all white neighborhood when what we call transitional
was the neighborhood transition.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
So the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
That's why I said near northeast because it keeps moving
out so where I grew up, where I'm at now
that I called the invisible line. Police officers we call
it the invisible line. Most people can still.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Call it that now.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
It's like you knew when you cross a certain street,
I'm in the hood. That line kept moving to where
Dale Roch was inside that circle.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Now, so it transitioned from a large, all white church
to an urban church, very urban. And when you showed up,
there's twenty five members.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Everybody left. My question is.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Anybody who pays attention to anything, whether you're a Christian
or faithful or not. Church membership, church attendance, all of
those numbers in the United States.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Have been on a decline. Oh major, Yes, and you're almost.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Following the decline that happened in Europe in the early
nineteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
It's very similar, very it's very very similar.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It's still still so how with that data and those
pressures against you, when church membership and church attendance is declining,
how have you grown from twenty five members to two
fifty regular attenders? And however many quote membership on the rolls,
how's that happened?
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Well, I go back to the former police office officerp
You're talking about going to the neighborhood and all the
way back to the table. Still do that, staying connected,
building relationships with men in the community.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
So you went from community policing to community pastoring. Yes,
the same set of arresting people and.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Dragging them to jail. You're dragging them to a congregation,
to an AA meeting and get them off drugs.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I'm dragging them to all men's meeting where I sit
there and we call it chopping up. I'm part of
It's called the smokers and jokers. It's a cigar lounge.
I go in there and hang out all these guys,
and I'm just I.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Want to go.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
We should have recorded. And I love Bill and I
are both huge cigar fans.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
He actually has a part time job, that's all.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
I work on the army all at a cigar shop
at night. We gotta going on there, but I'm hoping
it Bill comes in Wichita one day we can.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
We literally literally have a week. We bought our own
store front and I'll have to show it to you.
It's it's our it's our cigar. When you were, you
own it, yes, part of it. You think any other
pastor on the cigar what's a group of us.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
It's a cold. It's a cold.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
I'm Presbyterian, so everything's okay. And moderation of everything, everything everything.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
So yes, I've I've smoked cigars and pastors Drake wild
with my pastors, you know all of that.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I don't know how many of them own a cigar shop.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
That's no, I don't own it.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Well, we own it because it's it's it's yeah, and
we all pay one hundred dollars a month, dudes.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Which tastes care.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Electricity, the water, the trash, it and that's what we do.
Study and I don't do like oh, break out the Bible.
And but I just.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Like you have cigar burns on your Bible.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
No I haven't, because you know what's so crazy? This
has become the I mean, we use this everybody, that's right,
So why going in with those guys and we'll just
chop it up with how are you doing with your kids?
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Fothering?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
So you grew your church. What I find interesting is
you grew this church. Let's be honest. I'm not putting
words in your mouth, but it sounds like this is
an area where it suffered extreme white flight.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yes, yep.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
And when that happens, and like you and like you say,
the hood expands and the white flight happens, it creates
these abysses. And you could see that maybe in the
sixties and seventies and eighties, this church grew and grew
and grew it was and then as the hood expanded,
(34:22):
the congregation left in the neighborhood changed and it has
to be repopulated or shut down exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
And you repopulated it.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And the same thing as a pastor that you did
as a police officer, which is community communitistoring, yes, which
I'm making that up.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
But that's what I like no.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
I think if it's not a real phrase, it should
be because I think every pastor should be in the
community beyond the four walls of the church.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Church.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Churches were not meant for us to build them. You know,
I love the movie, you know, Building Nato come to
fill the dreams and they will no, no, no church.
We did the same thing buildings, the big mega churches.
Nothing against megachurches, but that's the thing that I call
the nineties. In two thousands, you have a pocket of those,
but your neighborhood and we're considered a neighborhood church, local church.
(35:15):
So you're looking at two zip codes that I work
with in particularly six the two one four six them
two oh eight. Is that be the hands and feet
of Christ in that in that community?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
So we went, you know, providing community development through home
ownership programs, financial literacy, class men, ministry, women's men, use me.
But it doesn't have to be in the church in
that building, although we have a lot of stuff there,
but it's constantly outward looking, very missional driven. How do
(35:48):
we make a difference? How do we when we from
the simple little thing is a blessing box that can't
stay full because we feel it, and it's empty because
the homeless population. And how do you take those people
and get them into transitional housing? You no literally sleeping
around the church. My uh my mom always said, don't
(36:08):
confuse that building with a steeple.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Oh, I said, what do you mean. She said, that's
not a church. So that's a church building. It's a building.
She said, you can have a church on the field
somewhere people are in it. Yes, church, we are the church.
And that's what you're saying, ya is for the church
to be active, it has to get out of its
building and get into the community.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, beyond the four walls of the church.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
There's actually two lines I love that relates to this.
So I think it's MLK said church is not a
place you go to, but a place you go from.
And then one of our guests, I feel like it
was Rona Pulson with Isaiah seventeen house. But she said,
like so many of these church programs, like they'll have
their little ice cream social and like think about people
who are like having trouble in their lives right now.
(36:52):
You think they want to like come with all these
pretty white people who got all their together and like
it's really nice clothes. Like that's the last place they
want to be. They want to be like, actually, where
you can help them in their need. That's the greatest
way to grow the church.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
And I preached like this or without this jacket. I
haven't had a robe bone in forever because folks in
that neighborhood needs to know that I'm not coming out
there with this big.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Religious you know, thus as the Lord. But hey, this
is what I'm talking down to him.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I'm telling, I'm telling, I'm telling on me half the time.
My wife hates it. He got to tell all your.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Business, don't all your business?
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Yeah, but but that lets people know you're relating to them.
And like, I like what you said. It's uh, the
you know, not the place you go to. Well, okay, Bill,
you like this Sunday particular? You Sunday to me, it's
halftime hmm, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Wednesday's because Bible
(37:51):
study is kind of like that, you know, we're practicing.
And and now like you said that, so Sunday I'm
bringing everybody into the into the locker room.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
That was a good week. Last week. Some of us
got beat up.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
You fell over here over here, let me we're gonna
and then we'll practice this to next week through the
class and then after I get through it Sunday, like
you said, now, let let us go back out.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
That's what the whole lights mean.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
And when so when you see, as they say, the
Methodist Church are even Catholic when they bring the kids,
bring the lights. So the light is representative of Christ
that you bring it. You're bringing the light from out
of the world into a place of worship where you
can worship and as simble together to empower and to
encourage halftime. Hey, don't forget it. That's what we got
(38:37):
to go do when we go back out there. And
so when we and then when we finish worship, you
take that same light. If you remember that, you take
that same light and you take it out. So I
tell people the light is a representation of we come
to worship.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
That's why I hate it people call church service. No,
that's not church's.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Worship, particularly Sundays is about worship where you come to
give God praise that got you through the week. Then
once you finish worship, halftime, Now, let's go back out
and be the light of Jesus Christ in this dark
world and you see them back out, and then I
try to say, instead of me just preaching from this pulpit,
(39:14):
now I'm gonna show you because I'm gonna go do
it too.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
And that concludes Part one of our conversation with Kevis Harding,
and you don't want to miss part two.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
It's now available to listen to. Together.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Guys, we can change this country, but it starts with you.
I'll see in part two
Host
Bill Courtney
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