Just Like a Prayer (w/ Ryan Murphy)

Fresh off winning his Lifetime Achievement Award, Ryan Murphy is here to answer our prayers and our questions!

Wait until you hear the story behind how he came up with the Madonna episode and how she reacted to it.

Plus, where does Glee rank in all of his projects? What would he change if he could do it all again? And what are the chances of us getting a Glee-boot?!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
And that's what you really missed With Jenna and Kevin
an iHeartRadio Podcast, Welcome too, and that's what you really missed.
I'm Jenna, I'm Kevin, and today we are joined by
the mastermind of Glee again, Ryan Murphy. We just can't

(00:23):
keep him away. He keeps coming back. Goodness, thank goodness.
I every time Ryan comes on, like I talked about,
like every time he's been on, you know, once before,
but it feels like a lifetime when we talk to him.
It feels like we like it fills up this like
crazy bowl and overflows and you get so much information

(00:44):
that you didn't know. We talk about a reboot, We
talked about his Baby Passion episode Madonna, which kind of
changed the course of Glee forever in many of our
minds and hopefully you're and also the how those things
logistically on like a business side work, like how do

(01:07):
you get the rights to doing whatever you want with
Madonna's music? That's absolutely crazy? And did Ryan have to
bang Madonna? Did he? Does Ryan beg anyone? Now we'll
find out. Enjoyed this conversation. We could talk to him
for hours and hours. Brian came on again and chatted
with us. Thank you, Ryan, and we hope you enjoy

(01:30):
this conversation again with the one and only Ryan Murphy.
Thank you for doing this again. I know it's good
to see you. Good to see you, guys. I have
to do this one because it was my my big
directorial thing that I loved doing that first season, other
than the pilot. So before we get into Madonna, congrats

(01:52):
on the Carol Burnette Award. That was a beautiful, beautiful
thank you. It was an hour to do and it
was an honor to be a part of some clips
and that tribute. You're welcome. That's what's so crazy is
you know, you're sitting there and I wouldn't say I'm young,
but I'm relatively on the young side to get some

(02:13):
sort of lifetime achievement awards. So you're sitting in here,
like for so much of it. When I was looking
at it and watching it for the first time, I
was just like, I had to fight, like to get
this stuff on the air. So much of it was
a battle, and then halfway through I'm like, oh yeah,
then it got easier right around here, and I was overwhelming,
and I had taken a clear in d that morning,

(02:35):
so when I got up to speak after talking like this,
I'm like, oh my god, this could go so wrong.
I got through it. I got through it. I did
my breathing, and I got through it. My beautiful speech.
It was a great speech. Yeah, it's beautiful. It made
us think of when we went to the Golden Globes
for the first time, and one after what half the

(02:57):
first season had aired. This seems absurd. Did you think
we were going to win? You know, that was a
really interesting time where broadcast TV hit some real oomp,
you know, and I remember going in and I didn't
really care because I liked my clothes so well. I

(03:19):
was on the Shevan sheet talks that I've loved, and
I remember people saying it was between us and Modern Family.
I think, yeah, that was like, you know, those were
the two big broadcast juggernauts, and Dana Walden, who I'm
very close with, those were both of her shows, so
I knew she'd have a good night either way. But
I wasn't really surprised, I guess about the first year

(03:44):
because it had become such a cultural juggernaut at that point.
I was surprised the next year when we did the
back to back. That was surprising to me. But I
was shooting the Madonna episode right around the time of
the Golden Globes, so I remember it was just such
a you know, a big moment for you, for you
guys and for the show, and it really had taken off.

(04:07):
It was nutty. Yeah. Did you feel sort of vindicated
winning because you know the show Convincing the network in
the studio to actually make the show in the first
place is sort of like a thing. And then you
win this award? What happens? Then the show's a juggernaut.
You win Best Comedy and then you're getting picked up
for the back nine. What does that whole since this

(04:29):
has look like on your end of it, Oh gosh, um, well,
I had one. It wasn't my first trip to the rodeo.
You know, that's been there before with Nicktuck before. I
think for me that period of time, there were so
many people who did support the show against a huge

(04:51):
group of people at the network that did not want
it to go forward. But Dana really fought for it,
so I felt she was very vindicated. I have a
theory about awards, which is, you know, if you get
nominated for award much More important than the win is
the fact that you probably can stay on the air

(05:11):
now for five years. That's kind of how it works
because once you get in that rarefied air win loser draw,
it's a sign that the show is popular or critically loved,
and then you get a future. So for me getting
nominated and then winning with a musical, I was like, well,

(05:31):
this has this can go four or five seasons, which
it did, and that's what the win was, more than
the actual trophy. But I remember the thing I remember
the most is the win. I remember thinking Barbara streisand
in some bizarre way, it was kind of an out
of body experience. And to be quite blunt, we were
all incredibly drunk in that room youtubecluded I remember, And

(05:56):
then I remember what I really remember was in that
still exists, was you know, you win, and you could
tell the room was really rooting for us because of
the musical theater thing. And then we all went backstage
and I remember that incredible photograph, yes, of all of
you guys and Brad and I and maybe Brad wasn't there,

(06:16):
ian Um reaching for the statue and I think somebody
was whoever was behind me was was tickling me. Um,
so I had I smiled unexpectedly when the photograph was taken,
but um, yeah, I have fun memories of that unexpected

(06:37):
it was. Yes, yeah, there was a lot of joy
that night. There was a lot of joy, and there
was a lot of joy in that whole period of
the show, which I love and remember. Finally, do you

(06:59):
want to talk about about some Madonna? I mean I
want to talk about some season one stuff as well,
but I think Madonna is like the Mecca. Tell us
about the the idea for the first tribute episode and
was it not even the succession like a planned was
it just a Madonna episode that was kind of on

(07:19):
the forefront of your mind? How did that kind of
what was what was that like? You know what was interesting?
Because there was two things about that, which was you know,
we made as we talked about the first chunk of
that show in a real bubble. The pilot it aired
in May, did okay? Was on after the American Idol

(07:41):
finale that I pushed for It did okay, and we
made them and we didn't have the back half picked up.
And then I went off to Rome with Julia Roberts, right,
So I was off making Eat, Pray, Love with Julia,
and I was all flying oh over the world, and

(08:04):
I'm not someone who does well with that, so draftling.
But she and I had a great time, and Cass
was great and Billy Crude was great. We just had
a ball and you know, so it was interesting for
me that it started to air and I was not
in the country. I was in Rome, and I will
never forget it. Like, after the second episode aired, it

(08:29):
did well, and then I think it was after the
Christian Channa with the Roads Not Traveled episode, which was
three I think, or was it four. It was in
that group time. I got a call from Jennifer Sulky,
who now runs Amazon, and she said, I just got
the ratings in for that episode, and you're not going

(08:49):
to believe how big they are. Something is happening. It's
a big hit. And it kept growing every week, which
is a real sign. And so I wasn't there. And
you know, this was really before the Internet and before
social media where you could log in, so it was
all happening in a vacuum, and I never really read reviews,
so I didn't get sent that packet. So they called

(09:14):
me when by the time I got to India. They
called where No, Yeah, India, they called and picked up
the back half and we had to start writing, you know,
because we had to start shooting because they were really
wanted it to go on the air quickly. And we

(09:38):
remember what happened. But I remember getting a call from
I think it was Peter Lagori or Kevin Reilly or
somebody saying me saying, well, what are you what are
you interested in for the rest of the show, And
he said something like, I really want a lot of
you in there. I want I want a lot of you.
Because at that point I was picking all the songs. Yeah,

(10:00):
I did for several seasons, and I thought, okay, well,
and I thought, well, what do I want to do? Yeah?
Who do I want to pay tribute to? And it
wasn't even the idea that I wanted to do a
whole episode, but I thought, well, I want to. I
want to. I want to do some more Madonna a
because she meant so much to me coming up, you know,

(10:25):
and I have a funny story about that. And then
also because I had worked with her and I thought
it would be impossible to do and I like doing
things that are scary, so um, That's how that started.
And I do think that that episode changed the show
hugely because before I remember one review that I read

(10:51):
very early on in the run of Glee was I
think like a duets episode and it was about just
very simple staging and two people singing songs to each
other in a choir room, and someone like I think
it was Matt Rouch just wrote and said, why can't

(11:11):
all the episodes be like this? Meaning simple, nice, quiet?
But that was never what the show was about. I
was always shocked that people never understood the anarchy of
the show. And then it truly was a satire. I
mean it struck me once I got deeper into what
people were thinking of it, because I had to ask.

(11:34):
I was like, so people didn't have trouble with the
Susie Pepper story, and people didn't have trouble with the
ejaculation and the hot tub story. No, it was always
very subversive and Ian and Brad and I really wrote
it as a satire. That's what it was. Yeah, long
story short, I called up Brad and Ian and I said, Okay,
we have to get we have to get writing. The

(11:56):
good newses were picked up. The bad news is I'm
in Bali and you have to come over to be
with me and Bali and write these episodes. Y Ian
was like great, and Brad was like, um, I have children,
and I said, well, I don't know what else to do.
There was no zooms, There was nothing we tried doing
and it wasn't working. And all of us had always

(12:17):
done the episodes together. So Brad made it work and
they flew over to m Bali and the worst places
to have to go work there were, you know Julia,
I remember we were under my days off, we would
just be sequestered in a hotel room overlooking a beautiful
beach and Julia Roberts would drop off snacks. And I

(12:40):
was literally trying to teach Brad and Ian about Madonna
because they were straight and they really did not know.
I think I think I played that name that tune
thing once with Brad and I would play a song
and he would be like, like a virgin, but no,
this is material girl. So it was a learning curve.
But I showed was that because for me, I was

(13:03):
an underdog as a kid, and I was an underdog
growing up. And there was a seminal moment for me
where I went to a college party my freshman year,
and it was at some dude's house. It was kind
of like a frat group, and there were a lot
of women there are young women, and there was a
couple of gay guys there, and all these straight dudes
holding up the wall, you know, just talking, and I
really think they were playing like Black Sabbath or something.

(13:25):
It was really bad. And I had a Madonna cassette
in my car and I'm ready to got it ready,
and I was just like, well, let's get this party started.
So I put it on and I put on dress
you Up. And the next thing I know, everyone was
on the dance floor and it really changed the room.
And this one on for an hour, and then finally

(13:47):
the straight guy took out the cassette and ripped it.
He broke it because we had hijacked his party. And
I thought, oh, that's a real memorable feeling for me
that I know well, being a gay guy moving in
the world. And I never forgot that moment of what
she meant to a group of people who could come
together who all kind of felt like underdogs or minorities
or outcasts. That's really how that episode started. But the

(14:11):
other thing that changed the show at that point. Once
we made it, it went from being a show that
was kind of a quiet, lovely little satire to a
true spectacle, you know, to a true pop culture thing
where we really started to pay a lot more attention

(14:32):
to pop culture things and movements and people. But I remember,
I just remember that that episode is I think when
I changed the show, changed people's perception of the show changed.
It was an interesting moment in the history of a show.

(14:52):
And if you look back on it, for better or
for worse, that is the episode you know now, I
think that I probably would not have done something so big.
I probably would have kept it small and I would
have kept it more about ordinary kids in ordinary circumstances.
But I was very proud of that episode. I mean,

(15:16):
watching it back, it's you can tell the difference of
when we get to that episode, when we get to
the back nine, all of a sudden, there is this
Shakey's shift. But that episode is phenomenal, is good, so good,
and you all those things that you were just talking about.
The entire episode feels like that feeling of that straight

(15:38):
kid tearing up that cassette and having the juxtaposition of
it meaning so much to one group of people than
having this other group completely not get it and fight
against it because other people are enjoying it, right, and
you feel that do the whole thing. I mean it
kind of mirrors like the Actuality Too, which you directed,
which we just watched as well. It feels similar. Yes, wow,

(16:00):
it's all about the Gagay thing happened because of you guys,
because and started a really wonderful relationship that I have
with her to this day. But I remember there was
a real generational divide between us. You guys were young
and very current, and you were the first person to

(16:21):
talk to me about Twitter, the first person to talk
about Lady Gaga. You had been on some press tour.
I think she had been there or you were we
were on an MTV show with her, But you talked
about her and how unique and strange, and I remember
Kevin saying, I think you would like her. She's very
unusual or something. Well yeah, yeah, so, but in that

(16:45):
she was wonderful. But the thing about the tribute episodes
were interesting because they did have a life of their own.
And for me, I will tell you, like, the most
validating thing was from the kid who had his Madonna
because set ripped out by the straight bro. Then to
direct that episode, and then for it to be such

(17:05):
a highly rated episode, and then for I think the
album hit number one, the Madonna album that we did
that accompanied the episode. Yeah, it was just very sort
of a big full circle moment for me where I
also love moments where I get to say to people
who I loved, like Madonna or Barbra Streisan or Stevie

(17:30):
Nicks or on and on and on Gaga, like just
to say thank you. You know, I'm a fan and
I always did that show specifically the music from a
place of fandom. But you said it was it felt impossible,
like Madonna felt impossible? What about it was so scary

(17:50):
to you? Because for us, like you know, and to
your credit, like we didn't feel that fear, Like we
just felt like, okay, right, as good as we're doing this,
like this is awesome. We don't know behind the scenes
of how do you get her to agree, how do
you get the catalog? And then how right? Well I
had worked with her before, which is a great story,

(18:11):
which is my beginning of my career. Was Madonna? Really
I had just sold a script to Steven Spielberg called
why can't I be Audrey? Hepburn. That was the first
script I ever wrote, really and he bought it, which
you know, and then I was thrust into this on
the cover of the Trades and all this stuff, and
I would have these amazing weekly tutorials with Steven Spielberg

(18:34):
about this is how you write a script and you
should be thinking about this a very bizarre way of
introduction to the business. And it got a lot of publicity,
not because of me, but because of that title, like
it was just a great title. Yeah. Yeah. So the
next thing I know, I got a call from this
guy at Lake Shore, a lovely guy named Tom Rosenberg,
and he said, hey, I'm doing this producing this movie

(18:56):
with Rupert Everett and Madonna. And you used to be
a journalist, didn't you. And I said I was and
he said, but you're now a screenwriter and I said,
I'm trying to And he said, well, I'm looking for
somebody who could interview Madonna about her life and her
views and put those feelings into the script. And he

(19:19):
said will you do it? And I said, well, what
does that mean? And he said, I want you to
go to New York for a couple months, once a month,
and I want you to sit with the tape recorder
and talk to her about her life and then put
that into the next draft of the script. So I
was like what I was absolutely couldn't say quick yes
enough and actually would have done it for free. Yeah,
And this was Ray of Light Madonna. This was like wow,

(19:42):
this was like nineteen ninety eight. It was her world
and we're all living in it. Yeah. So I flew
to New York and this is a true story that
no one ever believes me and the elevator ride up
to meet Madonna for the first time with Tom. He
turned to me and said, I forgot to ask you
when is your birthday? And I said what? And he

(20:03):
said when is your birthday? And I said I'm November ninth,
and he goes, are you a scorpio? I said yeah,
and he goes, you can't tell that to her because
she won't hire you. And I said, what do you mean?
He said, I don't know, but just don't say you're
a scorpio. Say you're something else. So lo and behold,
I meet her. She's lovely. The last question is when

(20:23):
we were born? And I gave her my mother's birthday
of September third, and she said, oh virgo, okay, that's
my mom's birthday. Oh yeah, Wow, We're connected deeply, Kevin,
I got By the time we got down to the lobby,
it came word that I was hired. So I had
this incredible five or six month period where I'd flied

(20:46):
to New York. I would be ushered into a beautiful
room in her home. I would sit under this amazing
Tamera did them pinkup painting, and she would come out
smelling like Pachuli oiled with her drowned world hair, and
she would sit and I would talk. So I had

(21:06):
this great experience with her. And I cannot say enough
good things about Madonna, how nice she was. I never
understood the scorpio thing, and maybe it was a joke
between them, but it was funny, and she was so
cool and kind. And I asked her very first personal
questions about her life and her childbirth because that was
the point of the show. So I did a draft

(21:28):
and Tom loved it. The next thing I know is
Rupert Everett read the draft and was like, this is
supposed to be a two hander, and I feel the
entire thing is now about Madonna's character. So I was
I had got to help Tom and Rupert and Madonna
work and choose the director, which was John Slessinger who

(21:51):
directed Midnight Cowboys. So I was like this young punk
and I never understood why they were saying, well, who
would you hire? I was like John Slessinger. So anyway,
I was systematically after that draft fired from that project.
And I think some of it that Madonna's yoga teaching
stuff made it into the movie. But she was kind

(22:12):
and wonderful. So when I came up with this idea
to do the tribute jumping ahead to Glee, I had
had an experience with her and I knew her manager,
Guy Osiri, a little bit, so I called him and said,
I have a really crazy idea and it's a real
leap of faith because to do it, I just need

(22:33):
permission and I can't really be told which songs to choose,
But will you? Asked Madonna if we can do a
tribute episode to her, which was kind of the first
so it was kind of whoever was going to be
that person was going to have to take a leap
of faith and give me the rights to your catalog
and let me record an album, and let let me

(22:54):
interpret your music the way that we want to ask
ask for a show that also was, like you said,
it was building in success every week, like the numbers.
We've been tracking the numbers too, where it still wasn't gigantic,
but it was getting it was getting substantially bigger every
single week. When you're asking one of the biggest artists

(23:15):
of all time, have free reign of everything. Yeah, And
so he asked her, and much to my surprise, until
she said yes. And I think the reason she said
yes was because she I don't know that she'd watched
the show or knew that much about it. I think

(23:37):
she was aware of it, and I think when it
was explained to her that these were kids who were
in a show choir dance group thing, it's kind of
touched a nerve for her because she had come up
in that world. You know, she had gone to in Michigan,
um kind of a she was a dancer, so I
think she she had a real appreciation for kids making

(24:00):
it and trying to do it. So then that's how
I got the rights, and I was I could not
believe it actually, and from Madonna's generosity and kindness came
so many other people, Paul McCartney, you know, Barbara Stratt,
just Legends and Gaga. Um So that started our absolutely

(24:22):
insane tribute series. And you asked, how did I pick
the songs? I don't really remember. I remember, you know,
you start with, like, okay, who were the characters. There
was a story, there was the there was the Leah
Corey story, there was the um um, well, I love
the thing that the person who was the world's biggest

(24:43):
Madonna fan was Susol Faster, which I thought would be
absolutely true. So that was kind of the jumping off points. Yeah,
and I but it was so much fun to write,
and um, I think we really did shoot our first draft.
I mean the fun thing about it was I did
a Madonna boot camp for Brad and Ian and tried

(25:03):
to explain to them my obsession with Madonna. And then
we've wrote the script and that was it, and and
then we were thinking of well, who could direct it?
And I remember Brad saying, You've got to be kidding,
You're like nobody else understand how to do with this.
And then I loved the challenge of there's one shot

(25:24):
that I was rewatching the episode in anticipation of this
wonderful meeting with you too. And there was one shot
that I remember Leah and Corey were running down the
hallway singing and they passed like the ten different Madonna.
That's what I want to have been dying to ask
you about this. Please explain all of that. It made
absolutely no sense, but it was so. It was cinema, Ryan,

(25:49):
that was cinema was cinema. It was the thing I
loved about her that she meant so much to me
and continues to mean so much to me, which is
that she never got pigeonholed and she changed. And I
really wanted to do that in my career, and I
really kind of had tried, and I think I have

(26:09):
done it, which is always doing the opposite thing nobody
expects you to do whatever. So I wanted to pay
tribute to the quality in her that I love the most,
which was all of these different looks and in a
very short amount of time. So when you see that
there's like ten people in these different I think I
even did it. Who's that girl? Shout out with the bowler?
And like I was nutty And I remember Lou and

(26:32):
I the costumer spending hours trying to figure out our
favorite Madonna looks. And she had a say in that too,
and I love that was so much fun, the two
of you being able to talk about your favorite Madonna looks. Yeah,
it was fun and it was a real tribute, and
so we shot it and did it, and it to
this day has one of the most fun things that

(26:54):
I've ever done, which is directing Jane Lynch almost in
a side by side in comparison beat by beat tribute
to Madonna in Vogue, which Jane won the Emmy Award
I think for that episode. So um, that was nuts
and I don't and again an example of the show

(27:14):
really like we had not done something like that before,
and it was kind of looking back, I'm glad I
did it. Should I have done it? Probably not, but
you know, who knows. But I wanted it to beat
beat by beat and Zach Woodley and I the choreographer,
and Chris bath Of the cinematographer, and we had to
get permission from the studio to do a black and
white segment because you just didn't do that right. Um,

(27:37):
some countries wouldn't carry it, or it was just a
whole big thing. Um things you don't think about. So
we had the video and we had we recreated we
looked at it like the Zapruder film, like you know,
it was just like constant looking at it, poppying the sets. Yeah,
we had Jane check everything we had. Yeah, Madonna was

(28:05):
Jane was actually a gigantic Madonna fan as well. She was,
and so she was saying how fortunate she got to
do that too, like how how cool that is and
like what world would you ever get to do something
like that? And also, Adam, you give that to change
some of the lyrics too, where she got to say
will I hate you and things like that, which is crazy,
and Madonna had Madonna had to approve that. So again

(28:28):
it was me calling Hi, it's me again, and they're like,
who is this Will Schuster? What are you talking about?
But um, yeah, I remember you guys. I remember everybody
in the cast dropping by to watch that being shot.
I remember you guys coming by. Oh yes, um we
had to Yeah, it was. It was really kind of

(28:49):
an amazing thing. And you know, Jane had said that
before the Your show but which I watched or listened to,
where she talked about a lot of the props that
David Fincher you used in the original Volk video. We
found so we got to do all of that um
stuff and in a real tribute not only to Madonna

(29:09):
but to David Fincher because that that video was still
I think the number the best video ever made. And yeah,
so we got to do all of that stuff and
it was incredible, and also it was incredible that the
studio let me shoot that for two days. That was
two days of work that was not just okay, we're
gonna and it was expensive and then it looked eve

(29:32):
it was and it was very st thirty five millimeter
and literally we had there was the crazy thing a
shot with Jane floating over what looked like a fabric yes,
and you know in that so we had to figure out, well,
how did how did they do that? And they had
Madonna on sort of a like a lever that was

(29:54):
supporting her neck from the back and it was like
a chiropractor table. So we had to build that and
it was all just like a great learning technical experience.
I've never done anything so technical. And Jane was a
trooper and I take after take, Jane, move your head
an eighth of an inch. If we looked at the monitor.

(30:15):
Now back, raise your eyebrow, and I would always kind
of let her do a take for herself, right, und Dad,
out of your system, here's what actually need. Yeah, and
we had fun. And about what I remember about it
was at the beginning, like we keep talking about, of
a feeling of oh, this is going to be people
are going to lose their minds when this airs, and
they did. It was a really really big rating success.

(30:39):
He got nominated and won mini many awards. Jane won
the Amy for this. I believe I was nominated for
the Director's Guild Award for this episode, which was hilarious
to me. And it was just yeah. And then the
fun part was we finished. And that was back in

(31:00):
the days too, where I would finish a cut and
you guys would all come into the editing room which
was literally a trailer and I'm sure covering those pestos
or something, and it was a trailer. It was okay.
I remember it giving I remember giving you snacks, and
I remember showing you guys the episode are rough cut

(31:21):
of it, Yes, And your reaction was the reaction that
people had because it just kept building and building. It
was a spectacle. It was nutty. It was about something.
I remember shooting the Express Yourself number. How fun was that?
That was really fun? And Jenna, I remember you were

(31:44):
the only one who could ever do the monocle correctly
of it, so if that was a big thing for
me and I kept and then I remember you kept
getting it right and everyone else was like, oh my god,
it flew a wreck get people in the face. You
were a dancer and you knew how to keep your shoulders.

(32:05):
I don't know, but you were the thank you, thank
you MVP with the monocle, the monocle actor as we
called it. Yeah, yeah, we in our episodes we have
best performances and best you know, superlatives, and we do
the best performance by a prop and the monocle one
for that was there's a lethal weapon. It was it

(32:25):
really also just you know, doing it. It just made
you you know, I think that's another moment we're doing
Express Yourself and I remember the boys were directed to
kind of be bored and kind of look off, and
you guys were anything but you know, And that was
also the beginning of something on the show where people

(32:46):
would show up to watch those numbers, like we should
built the auditorium and people all over the Paramount lot
would show up. That was one of those days and
one of those challenges because it was like, how can
we be miserable during this The girls are kicking ass
good and it was so good and the constance was hard. Yeah,
every number was full of joy and excitement for us

(33:07):
to get to do in every department. That's what it
felt like. And I could tell that because you guys
really put yourself into it and not even watching it.
It has a level of energy from the actors that
was new to watch because you could tell that you
were also doing an in tribute to Madonna in some

(33:29):
weird way, I felt, and everybody loved it. Everybody, even
Corey loved it, like you know, yes, I loved the
loved the tribute to her and the energy and thought
it was about shit crazy what we were doing. And
I mean there are so many numbers in it too,
it's like, what was your did you have a favorite?
You know. The other thing the pressure of doing this

(33:51):
because at that point we knew that the artists a
lot of the time responded to what we did in
the episode. So I think knowing that Madonna was probably
going to see it. It seemed unlikely, there's no way,
but I was going to see this. But we also
knew like if I sing this, I have to like
do it's because she will probably I can't butcher what
it feels like for a girl, right, yeah, I don't

(34:13):
know when she thought, but my favorite number honestly was
and maybe it's because we did it on tour, maybe
because it has like nostalgia and sentimental feelings now, but
like a prayer, right, like those numbers, it's like the
feeling that I get that I remember doing with such
joy and like Amber's mom being in the choir on

(34:35):
stage with us and just like you're like just dance,
you know, just like go, and that that to me
is like what emulated the US, you know, as a
as a group of new directions. But then also like
I mean ray of Light when you have like people
on stilts, it's like it's crazy, it's crazy. It was crazy,

(34:58):
and those to remind me you were just saying what
it feels like for a girl. That's such a beautiful arrangement.
I mean, I think Anna Mandrew's did incredible arrangements throughout
that whole episode. I thought it was really bold that
you picked that song because it was not one of
her biggest songs, but it was one of her the
video being controversial, shocking her having a controversial video, and

(35:22):
how you used it in having the sort of gender
reverse perspective singing it was really powerful. Yeah, I only
chose songs in that episode that meant something to me. Again,
that feeling of what it feels like for our girl
you could put what it feels like for a blank. Yeah,

(35:43):
And it reminded me of me in college getting the
single ripped apart, you know, like the cruelty of the
world sometimes and how hard it is to be a
woman or to which I think has changed so much.
But you know, yeah, I was those songs were personal
to me and I think you can tell. And but yeah,

(36:07):
there was the moment of reckoning where I had to
send it to her to watch because I do believe
that the only caveat that they had was if she
didn't like something. You know, she gave me complete freedom,
but if she didn't like something, she politely said, I
would like to have a discussion about it if it

(36:28):
rubs me the wrong way, Because these are my songs,
these are my children, my life and I said yes.
So again throughout the entire process, I cannot express to
you how kind she was about it and open about it,
and then when she saw it even more kind and open.
She didn't have a note, she didn't ask for anything
to be changed. She loved it. She um wow. She

(36:53):
was so supportive of it that at one point I
thought I was being punked or like, really, this cannot
be real. And then she put out a press release
I believe the day the show aired, saying how much
she supported it and what the show was about and
doing for the world, and that her doing that at

(37:14):
that moment in time also made the show be further
recognized because a lot that letter got so much attention
and that set the standard. Also like, okay, if we
do a tribute episode part of the gig as you,
we hope you like it enough to say something nice
but right. And then the album hit number one. That

(37:37):
was a big thing for me that I wanted her
to get as a tribute from us to her, which happened.
I remember getting a call from Jeff Bywater about you
hit number one kid, yeah, smoking. So it was just
all a Nutti Nutti Nutti experience. And then things were
different in every way on that show. Yeah, how we

(38:00):
need it, had the amount of money we were given
to make it, how people viewed it. How in many
cases things that I did in that episode that really
were nuts and went off the rails um kept happening,
you know, And I think in a different world it
would um it would not probably have gone so crazy.

(38:25):
And then you know, there was also the creative difficulty
of well how do you top that? And we kept
trying to top and top and top it with um
right with Gagay, with Britney Spears, with Michael Jackson. The
Michael Jackson episode is the one I believe that made
both of you lose your minds or something happened around
that time. Yes, we you survived, you did. I made it.

(38:52):
You made it. And also I remember, didn't you guys
walk off the set? Wasn't weren't we shooting something in
a parking garage that went nutty? We didn't walk off.
We didn't shoot something in a parking garage and had
that was crazy because technically speaking, we had no time
to rehearse in the parking garage and we were using

(39:13):
an actual parking garage on the Paramount lot. So we
don't wait for all the employees to leave, and so
we would poor Zach Woodley would take whoever was in
that section of the dance and we would sort of
just map it out and shoot it as we were going,
So we never rehearsed the whole thing. We could just
do it bits. How did that happen? Why is that?

(39:33):
Why did that happen? I think we were behind I
think shooting that day already and then whenever Zach got us,
it was so late that the crew was then moving
over already, and you know, it was one of those
technical things where you have to wrangle eighty of us,
change us, redo our everything. This was when Sebastian was

(39:54):
getting hit with rocks in the slushy and that was
Gran Augustine and I believe at this time this is
when I lost my mind a little bit. I wasn't
there for the second part of Michael, but we were
shooting two episodes at the same time, I believe, and
that's why I was in some of Michael and not
in the second half of Michael. We were doing what
episode was before Saturday Night Fever, if I maybe correct,

(40:16):
it was the one with Saturday Night fever. At the
end of the episode, we're all inmost white suits. I
don't remember what it was, but we were doing two
at once and crossing over and then I think Bad
was like a night shoot and we went in and
like you'd be like, car Well, that's also funny to
talk about that episode and Madonna, because you know, my

(40:39):
life changed between those times, right right. I was very, very,
very very you know, we've talked about this, but I
was very very in that show the first two years,
really really in it, and then I had a baby,
and then American Horror Story happened, and then I sort

(41:00):
of went to having a bigger overall deal with more
responsibilities and more development, and yeah, it was it was
a much different world. And I do think the the now,
it just seems like the idea that we did twenty
two episodes a year of a musical is insane. How

(41:22):
was that even allowed to happen? The schedules, like you
know now you would do if you would do twelve,
and I would say that's too much, But you know,
there was no there was no protection for any of us.
It was hard on you. I remember it was incredibly
difficult with the writing because it was three of us
doing it, and so many nights we'd be at the

(41:42):
Chateau of Marmat in the lobby until the wee hours,
like really struggling and how do we feel up these episodes?
And it became you know, and then it became such
a business that um and people wanted more, more of it,
and the world wanted more of it at that point,

(42:02):
So you know, the philosophy of my career has always
been asked me, what my favorite word is, Kevin, what's
your favorite word? Ryan? Yes, my favorite word is yes,
because I always was like, yes, yes, I'll do more, Yes,
I'll yes, we'll do because you never think that you're

(42:23):
from Yes come as many joys. And at that point
I felt like such a minority in the business and
so lucky to be there, and thinking, well, this is
never going to happen again, so sure we'll do a tour. Sure,
why not? Like I just kept wanting to be a
people pleaser and Um, looking back now, I mean that
period of the Madonna episode, followed by all those awards,

(42:46):
followed by that tour, we were grumbling about it, but
I mean it was really one of the best times
in my life. I was special to get to do that.
I don't think we're sling yet. I don't think that
we were quite there yet. Oh I was. I remember
being like, I can't, I can't the scripts, like how
do I do twenty two of a musical? Right? And
then three of you doing that? Is that's crazy. I

(43:10):
don't know how the three of you could write to
you two full seasons just the three of you. How
do you tune out like the pressure or do you not?
Or did you feel or how do you tune out now?
Like the pressure of like what the fans want when
they went the expectation? Yeah? Um, yeah, that was That

(43:32):
was that. That show was a learning curve in so
many ways because it was also we've spoke about this privately,
but it was sort of like me um at the beginning.
You know, I felt very much like everybody else. I
was working for a company, you know, I didn't feel
like your boss. I felt like we were having fun.
I was your peer. Yeah. You know, not only was

(43:54):
I writing some of them a lot a lot of
them with the guys, but I was directing a lot
of them. And these are the days where I would
go to every dance rehearsal yeah, I would go to
every you know, cost him fit. I was so involved,
and it was I felt so much pressure because who
knew that this little fun thing that we did, that
we did for us in a bubble would become such

(44:16):
a worldwide success. And it was a worldwide success. So
it was I've never had anything culturally bigger than that
at that moment in time. And then you know what
had started to happen was it was Niah who introduced
me to the wonderful world of social media, which, in

(44:37):
a weird way was like, Oh my god, why did
I do that? She helped set up my Twitter account
and she tweeted, now you something like now you all
be nice to him, or I'm gonna get you or
something funny. Remember that, And I remember you guys were like,
I really don't know if you have the stomach to
be but you guys loved it because you were young,

(44:59):
and it was like and stand feedback and they were
nice to you. Those first two seasons, I think we
were the most tweeted about TV show in the world. Yeah,
I'm sure. And then you know, I would start to
read the tweets from the fans and I'm like, oh,
they want X to be with why they want they
don't they don't like what we're doing. Okay, well I

(45:19):
will serve that. So then we became you know, then
we started to service the relationships, probably not from an
organic place, but from a fan place, which is the
kiss of death, which I learned you can never do.
And then you know, and now there's just rules in
my life that I follow. I don't read reviews. I

(45:40):
don't read what people say about the shows. I don't um.
I don't let that into my head because I'm writing
it first and foremost for me. And I remember we
were encouraged by the company to have tweet parties and
actively engage with the fans and try so that was
that was a young learning curve for corporations too. Yeah,

(46:00):
where they were like, yeah, like make the fans for
like more people will watch. So yes, that probably was true.
But yeah, I mean I had in the second year
of the show, particularly it was dark, I had death threats.
I had to get security. I had people showing up
at my door. You guys, remember that the people showing

(46:22):
up at the door upset about something that happened with
Brittany and Santana. Somebody with a knife and the cops
came and it was just it was just out of
control and it was scary, and so I quickly learned, yeah,
don't do that, and I don't do that anymore. And
now my rule is Glee was written in a very

(46:47):
place of love. You know, when people talk about their parents,
their parents get divorced, but you were born of love
when you were conceived. You should know even though mom
and dad got a divorce, we loved you in that
moment you were made. That's how I felt about Glee,
because that's what it was, particularly us first two years.
I'm until my life changed and yeah, and then you know,

(47:08):
I couldn't. I was torn into many directions both from
my family and my work obligations and what I was
trying to accomplish. And I also felt driven to do
more that put more things like whatever whatever you want
to call the Madonna episode. It had a queer sensibility,

(47:29):
it was and I wanted to do more things like that,
for more more shows with more people. And so then
that became a driving force in my life to sort
of leave the world in a different place than it
was when I came in. Again, the kid you had
the madonnaa single ripped apart. So everything just changed and
you got there. You know, I'm as busy and hard

(47:49):
as it was, I guess saying yes all the time.
But by doing that, you did build yourself into a
position to get to put queer stories and queer media
on so different networks with several different TV shows concurrently,
So you know, you built this empire. You know, to
circle back to what the kil Burnett Award is about,
and what your speech was about was to put to

(48:11):
give spotlight to underserved communities and groups, because you know
what that personally feels like. And so I mean, it
seems like with Glee you were able to see how
hungry people were for that and how when given the
opportunity to see themselves people appreciated it. And so then
you got to I mean, and you did amazing things

(48:31):
as well after or you made sure women in the workplace,
women got to direct and got to shadow directors on
your shows. Yeah, so behind the scenes, you immediately even
you must have been exhausted, you had a family, you
had eight billion shows, but you still were, you know,
making time to make sure that other people. It was

(48:52):
sort of like the Oprah model. If I come up,
everybody else gets to come up to give you know,
to help the people below come up to meet you. Otherwise,
I mean I did feel I did try and do that,
and I also wished, you know, I feel like coming
on your show is great because it's like therapy sessions
where we can really but I wish I wish some

(49:14):
of it. I never would have changed some of it.
I would have changed, like, um, a lot of stuff
that was going on. It had become such a business
and like you're talking about shooting in a garage with
cars coming and no time to rehearse, and I'm like,
how did that? How was that allowed to happen? I
wasn't front and center at the show at that moment
in time, and I don't think that should have happened.

(49:38):
I think we were doing it. I wish that there
had been more time and um, things put into like
how are you feeling? How is your mental health? Like
you said you had a moment Jen like, of course
you did. We all did. But but but back then
there was no conversation. You never could do that because
then they'd be like, Okay, well, I remember hearing us

(50:00):
story about a showrunner who the pressure was so bad
that he went missing for three days and they found
him in a car. He had had a nervous breakdown
and he was in a car shaking uncontrollably. And I
remember reading that and thinking I know that, feeling yeah,
I really do get that. The pressure of, you know,

(50:21):
show business, it's a show, but it's also a business
was just really too much to take on. And it's
I don't think there's any There's never been another show
like Glee that was like this multiheaded hydra where you're
a TV show, but you're also a stage show, and
you're also a soundtrack business, and you're also a merchandise business,

(50:42):
like and big in each of those departments, not just
like phoning it in, big in every sector like that. Yes,
And it got so nutty that at one point I
got a call about doing a Glee Haunted House thing
at Universal something for Halloween. And I was like, well,
this this is really insane. The show has nothing to
do and you want to make it a horror show.

(51:04):
And then I thought, you know what, I should have
done that, like, how fun for all of you guys
to be amazing they wanted to do. It was around
the time of the the the much maligned Heads, Will Rolls,
Zombie Number Glee, Dead with Knives, and our I guess
I don't know, but only this certain group of us

(51:26):
who have been through that experience will ever know what
it was like. And yeah, but also I would like
to say about the Madonna thing, like I never had
more fun ever doing any piece of work other than
the pilot, I think for me and um, it was
just such a joy and a privilege to be and
it was a it was a privilege to do it,

(51:48):
to make it. You know, Jenna and I talked about
us crazy and big as that episode was when we
tell people about how good you are as a director,
because I think people you're a known media brand and personality,

(52:09):
but as a director, you're so good. And there's that
scene and as crazy as that episode was, there's a
scene where it's Jenna and I talking at the piano
after Larretie has said some very questionable showing a stick
things to her and we walk in the choir room
to block it, and you go, no, no, no, this

(52:33):
doesn't work, because you know there was supposed I was
to Lynn we were moving yeah, and you go, no,
this isn't right. At all and you stop and you
were just quiet for like twenty thirty seconds, like staring
off to the distance, and you go, Okay, here's what
we're going to do. And you took over the floor
and you rewrote the scene in real time, and you go, Kevin,

(52:56):
you're here, Jenna, you sit there and you're gonna say this.
You're gonna say this, You're gonna that, You're gonna say that.
It was the craziest thing I've ever seen. I do
remember that we started doing it and then I remember
everyone was like, oh, thank god, yeah, oh, the scene
is great now. And it was so quiet. We were
so silent, there was nothing else going on. And it

(53:16):
was a real a really important learning moment for me,
and getting to work with you to see how you
worked that, and also getting to act and learning how
to act better. And I think the brilliance of being
able to think on your feet and rewrite a scene
and make it even ten times better than it originally
was supposed to be was remarkable. It's a really crazy

(53:37):
thing to see. Yeah, well, I don't know I feel
that about you know, I don't direct anymore, but I've
kind of retired from that. But I did love it
when I was doing it, and my rule about it
was always you know that that phrase, if someone shows
you who they are, believe them. And I feel that

(53:59):
way about scenes, so you know, we can write it.
And then I'm a collaborator with you guys, and I
remember that you were really trying to pay tribute to
the script and the script was wrong. So it was like, well, if, okay,
this has now been revealed to us that this scene sucks,
so what do we do? And we I do remember

(54:22):
just sitting there and thinking, you know, you two are
so talented that there's just too much in your way
and what is really what is really the scene about?
And when I do lectures or anything for young people,
I would say, when you direct, you only need to
know three things. You need to know how do you
get into this scene, what's your first moment, what's your transition,

(54:42):
how do you get out of the scene, what's the
last beat? And the most important thing is the tone.
What do you want to feel from this scene? And
what the three of us came up with was a
feeling and then it was just very boom boom boom
bom boom, and it was it was and I always
feel in service to that, and I also feel very

(55:04):
in service to actors because I feel scripts are blueprints
and sometimes it was something that you write is absolutely Oh,
it's like building a house. This is perfect. But then
sometimes you're making a room and you're like, this room
is terrible. Why so it's in the architecture. You have
to go back and do it. But I do remember
that day. I also remember that day. You probably don't

(55:29):
remember this, but it was raining so hard and that
we had to do one takeover because that we had
that crazy roof above the choir room and it was
a sound thing. Yeah, so I remember thinking wow about that.
I have such a memory of that moment in time.
I also remember that I was smoking cigarettes that yes,

(55:52):
and Zach Woodley and I would go between. That was
my reward if I got a scene right, we'd take
I called it smoga smoking in yoga. Yeah. But it
was such a vivid time in my life and that
that idea, and also just the craziness that I thought
I could say this doesn't work, Okay, let's do it

(56:14):
without calling the studio or people who would have proved
the script, like the use of me to do it.
But well, I mean they'd picked you up for a
back nine and said we want more of you. So yeah,
they did, and I felt very like I was just
becoming who I was supposed to become after when I could,
was just beginning to show people what I could do,

(56:35):
as you two were, as the cast was, so it
was all that show was the beginning for so many
people and about so many things. Yeah, well I'm glad,
I'm glad you liked my directing you guys, thank you?
Oh yeah, now we did. Every time you would come in,
it was like you knew exactly what you wanted. We
made our days. It was clear it felt good when

(56:58):
you walked away. I think as an actor a lot
of the time like they're like they directors put so
much trust than their actors, which is amazing, but there's
also a sense of like leadership that has to be
driving the ship. And like we knew if when you
came in, we were like, this episode it's gonna be great.
It's going to be cos if it's going to be streamlined,

(57:18):
and I'm going to feel good walking away because we
know you're going to get out of us what you
want and like, you know, always be like Gena bigger,
gena bigger the hair tip flips the things, and it's
I look crazy, but it's funny, like it's it's what
it's supposed to be, right, and that as an actor
is always like God, it feels so good to walk
away from something and feel good about your work. Yeah.

(57:39):
I always tried to do on that show was to
the idea that I would say more, bigger, more bigger,
like some crazy fashion photographer. But I really wanted all
of you, particularly in that first season, to show what
you could do the most and not the least of you. Yeah.
It didn't want you to feel edited, and I didn't

(58:01):
want you to feel small, and I didn't want you
to feel constricted. And I think you can feel that
and that those first two seasons, it was people were
allowed to be the best of you, the worst least
of you. Yeah. You coming in after a couple episodes,
you go, I'm over this nerdy thing. We gotta and

(58:23):
you would push me to get out of this, like
the nerdy thing. I was like, Okay, he's giving me permission.
I guess I need to like, yeah, I can change
it up, Okay, So like more important than even the
making of that episode, for me was the camaraderie and
the making of it. Like what I really really loved
about that and every time I directed was you know,
it was fun to do and I loved it. But

(58:45):
I the thing that I treasure and will take to
my grave that was it will make me emotional. Was
like the moments, like when we were doing something nutty
like that, and I remember after that rehearsal, it's a change,
and you know then it took a while to get
the lighting fixed and change the thing. And so we
would just sit off in another room and those horrible

(59:05):
director's chairs would throw our backs up and we would
just talk and eat, and there was that weird craft
service room and it was it was really a rainy
season in LA that year, and I just remember we
would all hang out and just talk and talk and
talk and laugh, and I would see you guys do
things in your real life, and I remember thinking, how

(59:29):
funny you know you were, Kevin. So I remember saying,
we'll just be more like that, or Jenna the same,
just be more of the thing that makes you a
sparkly person. And that would not have come unless we
were all so close and hanging out and joking singing
like I can remember you two also always knew what

(59:49):
the the hot tunes worth the time finger on the pulse.
You know, you're not the only tastemaker out I wasn't
and I don't know how it runs. We would do that,
um Amber and I would have a lot of fun
with her teaching me how to do the runs. And
also like I remember you guys turning me onto so
much music. Yeah, it's like yeah, like I don't really

(01:00:10):
think I was familiar with the artists known as Genuine
and his Hip Pony and so you're welcome. We were
thank you until we would be off camera You're like, hey,
listen to this and I'm sorry. But some there were
weren't people still having like Sony Walkman's then with the
with the CDs in it and stuff, and like it

(01:00:30):
was such a long time. They were like the little
the little iPods. It was like without first generation Ipodsay iPods,
Sony Walkmans. What can I say, I'm older than you?
Really fun? Yeah, that was what all those Madonna stories,
I had no idea. Did you have any This is
the last time I will talk about her, But you
have any other Madonna fun facts you want to know. No,

(01:00:54):
did you have you seen her since? Like, have you
seen her in person or talk to her since? Um?
I had of Again, have you talked about did the
episode come up at all? No? So far removed. Madonna
is not someone whom I think looks towards the past,

(01:01:15):
gat I mean, which is why her going on tour?
All right? Right? Are you gonna go see it? Are
you kidding? Of course? And I'm also gonna go to
Taylor Swift And I'm I'm very excited about my my Beyonce.
I mean, they're all going on tour. I'm going, I
know together, that's gonna Beyonce together. I will pay for
the tickets because I will die. I am so excited.

(01:01:38):
I'm going to try to go as many times as
I've seen her six times already. You've seen Beyonce six times? Yes,
I've seen her six times. I went with Gwyneth Knew.
I was so obsessed once and she brought me once
and I heard he's seen the tour. I'm like, I'll
go with you. And then she was late and I
showed up to the suite and it was me and
jay Z by ourselves for like twenty minutes, and I

(01:01:58):
stood in a corner and didn't speak anyone because I
was so scared. You were scared. Why He's so lovely,
He's so nice, and I had met him before, but
I just really felt like, I'm not supposed to be here.
This is Beyonce's family's sweet. You know, she's another one.
She was so Beyonce. She was so kind about the show.
She gets permission for all of those songs. She was

(01:02:20):
so supportive and sweet. And I had not met her.
She's so nice, except I did run into her once,
and like what happened was I was at I was
in a doctor's office and they were like to get
some sort of like vitamin shot, and they were like
go down, turn left, and turn to the turn, and
so I didn't know what I was doing, and it

(01:02:40):
was like, you know, it was one of those places
with hushed music and candles and everyone spoke like this.
And I opened up a door and literally lit like
an angel. Was Beyonce getting an ivy drip of vitamins.
And I was so startled that I just turned the
door and I'm like Hi. She's like HI, Like nice

(01:03:01):
to meet you. She's like it's great to meet you.
What are you here for I think I'm doing what
you're doing. It's okay, great, and it was just you
get to meet your idols, you know, and she and
usually you know, the big ones are the nice ones. Yeah,
you don't being a complete asshole? No, exactly. No. When

(01:03:21):
she you know, she has a reputation with Madonna, I
think of being, you know, tough, but I will say again,
in the process of working with her, always the most kind,
the most generous, really nice. And then I've had some fun,
fun um moments with her that you know. Yeah, she's

(01:03:42):
she's a force. Yeah, well, let's go see Beyonce together.
I'll go to Taylor with you. I'll go to Taylor. Okay, great,
what song do you want to hear the most of
these concerts? I want to hear Renaissance from start to finish.
That's all I want. That's what you're looking for. Yeah, mastermind,
I want to hear Lavender Hayes. I want to hear

(01:04:03):
I want to hear her whole Midnight album. I'm very
excited about it, very I'm very excited about that Midnight's
album too. I love it. I love her. Yeah, I
think all of these women, you know, with what they're
doing with their music and how they're you know, influencing
women and gay people in other minority groups. It's incredible, Um,

(01:04:24):
you know, for a long period of time, like they're
not just flashes in the pan there. But how lucky
that you guys get so many of them. You know,
I had was Madonna, that was it. She was the
only one, which makes her um yeah, what she had
to do to right through the system and win and right.

(01:04:46):
So that's what so our summer's planned apparently, Yeah, Taylor
Swift and then we're doing Beyonce and then we'll do Maddonna.
Yeah right. I'm really happy for us. This is really working.
I have one last question for you guys, because since
from from you know, I'm very proud of you that
your your show you're doing is the cultural gatekeepers of Glee.

(01:05:09):
So I think I've listened to them, and I love them,
and I think what you do. What I love is
you talk about the positive things about the show yeah, um,
and the legacy of the show. But have you guys
all as a cast internally, what are your feelings about
a reboot like or because you know, what do you
how do you what do you think about that should
we do it or should we not do it? Or

(01:05:31):
should should it be left alone? Why should ask you? Ryan?
Are you toying with this? Are you playing with this
in your head? Well? I get asked about it all
the time. Do you want to do it? Everybody's been
asking that now everybody wants to you know, it's an
interesting thing, and um, I think what does that look
like to you? I think is the biggest thing? You know?

(01:05:53):
Is it is? I mean, it's it's a format that
works in a way where you can take all new
people in a different city, in a different state, you know,
and show the underdogs and the outcasts and do the
same thing. Is it bringing back all the old people
who are teachers or something? I don't know. I think

(01:06:13):
it depends on what it is. I think the legacy
of the show. Now, what's tough about bringing shows back
is does it feel like you're hurting what has already
been accomplished or tarnishing whatever? But anything you do I
think is great, So I don't you're the mastermind. As
Taylor Swift said, Yeah, that's funny that they played that

(01:06:37):
song when I was walking on stage to get that award,
which I thought was absolutely hilarious. You know what they
wanted to they wanted they wanted to hilariously. They wanted
to do um walk, have me walk on. They wanted
to play Don't rain on My Prey, And I was like,
absolutely burst into gay flames. I can't have that happen.

(01:07:00):
And so they did that as a joke, and I
think that she cleared it and sweetly said yes. And
so when I heard it, I was like, is this mastermind?
You can see in my face? I was walking at
under the stage where they thought was that they were
making fun of me in a lovely way. But she
was sweet to say yes and yeah, But I don't know.

(01:07:20):
I'm of two minds. You know, first of all, you
talk about they can't say anything worse than has already
been said, so that's off the table. And it also
was like the thing that I love about the show
now is there are people watching it. They're you know,
it's streaming everywhere, and there are people watching it. Young people,
my children's age ten, eight nine, who have no knowledge

(01:07:45):
at all of anything we all went through. They only
see the very pure work. And somebody told me that
their daughter last Halloween went as go Chier Madonna because
she had watched the Glee episode of Madonna, and I thought, well,
how amazing is that? So those are the things to

(01:08:06):
think about, like it's the work that lasts and all.
I never have believed that, by the way, but in
this case, I do think it's true. Like it's it's
a feeling and they can feel it and it teaches
them about something, And part of me feels like, well,
wouldn't it be great to do another run of that
show and do a lot of other songs that artists

(01:08:27):
pay tribute to things? And how fun would that be? Yeah?
I mean, the show's been off what for eight years?
There's so much more music too, and I'm like, oh
my god, we would have done that in the day.
There's just so many What do you think we would
have done? Because I have my ideas, I know two
things we would have done and would have been we
I'm not so sure that would have been good. We

(01:08:52):
would have done Hamilton, yes, is the school musical? Definitely
Hamilton or Dear Evan Hansen. Um. We definitely would have
done a Taylor uh tribute tribute and maybe a Beyonce
tribute since we've done so much Beyonce but like a
proper tribute. Um, we almost did a Taylor tribute, which

(01:09:13):
was we had to change it because I couldn't get,
you know, the permission. But remember when Chord had it
was originally going to be he was going to form
a band called the Taylor Swift Experience. That's right, Yes,
that then became I couldn't get the rights to everything
and do it in the way that I wanted. Then
became the John Mayer Experience. John Mayer was like, I

(01:09:34):
don't know if I want to do that yet. I
don't even remember what did it end up being? Justin Bieber?
Justin Bieber's right. It's also funny, is Chord is good
friends with both of them John Mayer and Taylor spid
So said yes, so it was kind of fun. Right.
What what would we have done that wouldn't have been good? Right? Well,

(01:09:57):
I mean we did we doubt I'm not that it
would have been good. Would have been you know, we
definitely would have done a Taylor Swift tribute, particularly now
because you know the thing about those tribute episodes is
there they were you have to have a sort of visual,
iconic flair. Yeah, so, um right, I just I just
know that Tina would have sung Lavender Hayes. I just God,

(01:10:20):
bless you, let's do bring it back and I'm ready.
And for Kevin, I would have had to have done
a Beyonce tributal. That we did several Beyonce songs, I
mean between Kevin and Namber were good. Yeah, I don't know.
We probably would have done. The thing about the show
that's so weird is you know I did my cultural

(01:10:40):
things so um. The school musical was the Rocky Horror
Picture Show. As a kid, I wanted to do Rocky
Horror Picture Show. The very idea that we did something
connected to rumors and Saturday Night fever. Your age were like,
what is this? But the joy of that is like
the Madonna episode when we did the Fleetwood Mac tribute.

(01:11:03):
You know, that album relaunched on the charts and a
whole new generation of people got to see it. So yep, yes,
it was quite well, that's like the gift that keeps
on giving even you know, like I remember for Journey
like that was Don't Stop like was right behind us
on the charts as well, when our Don't Stop was up,
you know, at number one, And that was another thing

(01:11:25):
I was told not to do. I mean, there were
so many things I was told not to do, but
that was one song people like, don't do that. The
sopranos just did that I talked about. But he then
showed up yep, right, and he was there and we
got to meet him, and that a surreal special Yeah. Yeah,
it's funny now because if you do look. Sometimes I
don't read things, but people will send me, like fan

(01:11:48):
site or whatever, roundups of like the seventy five best
Glee songs ever, and then it's fun to click through
them because they're just one person's opinion to see like, well,
what's number what's in the top ten? Right? And it
always moves, that always changes. It's never constant from year
to year, for sure. And except don't stop believe that
always this number one, because like, could you not do that?

(01:12:10):
Right now? I don't know. The reboot is interesting. It's
like there's like a feeling that's like I think a
lot of people would do it and be a part
of it. And what is it that we want to say? Right?
What is it that people want to say after all
this time? Which I think is important in thinking about it.

(01:12:31):
If there were even an option, right, if there's something
that you were thinking about doing, but like, yeah, it
would be difficult. But if I did do it, you know,
I would want to take it back to the feeling
of right the first year, I don't think I would
do you know, Outland just tributes right off the bat,
although I thought what mister Shoe did or Jane's character

(01:12:53):
Sue did as a learning curve, was like, well, that's
a really good instruction. That's a good lesson for kids
to like, that's great. Like so it was it was
about something, right, so I could see doing it. It
would It would. I don't know when or how or why,
but no, for sure, everybody's asking about it. That was
so funny because there's so many reboots out there. Party's cousin,

(01:13:15):
you know, cousin. Do you too think that you've you've
left Ohio? I would, first of all, I would pretend
that the last episode, whatever happened, everybody was like not yeah,
just yeah, it's dam it was a future dream. Do
you two think that your characters are still in Ohio? No,
I think we got I think Tina got out. Yeah,

(01:13:37):
where did they go? Well, Tina and to Brown, So
I think she got some You know, like she got
a little excited and then she became some crazy CEO
of some you know, startup company and yeah, you know,
travels East West. And I think I would imagine that
Tina had like had become like some sort of businesswoman
tycoon like Bethany Franklo with her own like mart tales.

(01:14:01):
Absolutely think that. Yeah, And I'm just going to say it.
I think her company is called Sober Curious and it's
just still a line of effervescent non alkohol ers. And
I also think that Tina, who had so much style,
like lives like a baller. And I think she's in
real good shape. Oh yeah, absolutely, Architectural Digest every other month,

(01:14:26):
and and she looks back on that time when she
had a goth phase. I remember that goth phase. I
had what I did kill it my steampunk. Yeah. And
I think I think Artie is in the music business. Yes,
I think, yeah, he's either like an executive in the
film or music business. I think for sure he I
don't know if you ask me these questions, I'm like,

(01:14:48):
why do I feel he lives in Miami. I would
like to see that as Miami. I think there's some
Latin music influence that you saw a moment and you
went and you and you're connected to Ricky Martin and
something's happening. I already signed Bad Bunny, already signed Bad Bunny.
That okay, but happen that's great? God, are you talking

(01:15:10):
about it? Like, oh yeah, Ricky Martin was in the
show on and on and on, great wonderful people, and
yeah you nailed it. Oh man, thanks for spending so
much time with us. Yes, of course I'd love to
what am I coming back? What episode was the next
one to tear apart and discuss and break down. I
think the guy, I think the Gaga one would be

(01:15:31):
very very interested to talk to about how that came
to be. Yes, let's talk Gaga. What are the other
big ones in season two coming? Rocky Horror, love to
talk about Bert. Let's see Sylvester shuffle. I mean that
was crazy the super Bowl episode. Um, blame it on
the alcohol. Oops. I love that one. Born this Way

(01:15:54):
was the Gaga one. That sounds fun. Rumors is right
after that we can do maybe we can do back
to back, back to mac. We'll do a Born this
Way in rumors that's eighteen and nineteen. We also have
some fan questions that we can ask you then too. Okay,
this is the this is the end, the fan questions.
I'm ready, Oh do you want to do some fan questions?
Do it hit me great? What was the hardest character

(01:16:16):
to write? The hardest character to write was Sue, But
that was Ian Brennan's problem because it was just it
was so written in a from his brain context, and
I was always so terrified to touch anything because run
on sentences, have to run on sentences, and then you'd
you'd see Jane do it and you'd be like, oh God, well,

(01:16:37):
of course that was that was the hardest one to write. Um.
I also think Mister Shoe was hard to write. I
think that I think that mister Shoe has gotten a
bad rap um literally, and I think that it was
It was hard to be the center of force of
a show where you're the moral authority, and sometimes that

(01:16:59):
means that the people are around you were more sparkly
and you have to be. But Matt did a great
job not doing that. M was Jesse Saint James's name,
Jesse Saint James, so Corey could sing Jesse's Girl great.
A lot of people ask that, and I mean we
knew Jonathan. I had been friends with Jonathan and Leah,
and when we decided to come on and we were

(01:17:20):
going to do that thing, we were talking about his
name and I'm like, well, obviously it has to be
Jesse so that Corey can sing that song. So yes, iconic. Um,
if you could go back and change everybody asked this,
if you could go back and change any storyline from
the show, what would it be. I wouldn't change anything. Um,
I would Um, There's nothing I would change there, you know,

(01:17:45):
and no, nothing great. Did an actor ever not like
a storyline and ask you to change it? Yes? Did
you change it? Yeah? I think so. I mean I
still do that to this day. I mean sometimes it

(01:18:07):
got it got a little nuttie there. But if it
was a logical reason, like like we talked about how
I direct, like, I always feel like, well, tell me
what you don't like. Most of you know this character
better than I do in some regards, so I would
There would always be moments. The one thing about the
Glee cast for the most part is people were like, oh,
you you want me to do that? Okay, here we go,

(01:18:29):
and then you would just try it. Because some of
it was so crazy and nuttie, yes and yeah, true
or false? Fun Due for two was a fan idea.
You'd have to ask Ian that because he he was
connected to that in a way that I wasn't. But
as soon as he told me about it, I remember saying, yes,

(01:18:50):
we're doing fun du for two. What would happen if
one of the actors got sick and couldn't record the song?
Did that ever get up the chain to you? Did
you ever have yeah, because you know, we'd have to
move scenes around, and it was always you know, we'll
get better and we're not doing it and right, yeah, right,
there's very rare times that, like Kevin that I remember,

(01:19:13):
like if you were sick, we would just do it
and we just record it, and they'd like make us
sound good and we'd be like, okay, keep moving. I
mean I directed a couple of episodes. I was sick,
I had a fever, and you just did it. And
then there's last one, last one. It's not a question.
She says. I love you, Ryan Murphy, thank you for
being a genius and sharing your mind with us. Mister
minds so well, thank you. I always love to hear

(01:19:38):
nice things, and I'm so grateful to be able to
keep talking about this great experience we had. So thank
you too, Ryan, Thank you so so much. Yeah, it's
so good to see you, and I'll see you a
lot this summer at all of our concert tours. I
can't wait our tour, our tour as the beginning. I'm
gonna be working on my outfit now. Thanks guys, Thanks Ran,

(01:19:59):
love you bye. Wow wow wow wow. Yeah you said
earlier like we could talk forever, like even we know
she's a busy lady and yet she's um. I you know,
I wish we could to Ryan every week. I know
he should be the third the third host of I mean,

(01:20:21):
he is essentially sorry. Yeah, um, thank you again Ryan
for doing this, Thank you all for listening. We hope
you guys enjoyed it. Apparently we'll have Ryan back again
for season two at some point. I love that for us.
Talk about rumors, let's talk about lady God, let's talk
about all of it. Yeah, thanks for listening. You guys
come back next week to recap with us, and we'll

(01:20:42):
have another lovely guest. And that's what you were in
the missed. Thanks for listening and follow us on Instagram
at and that's what you really miss POD. Make sure
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See you next time.