Laverne Cox: Stop Earning Love and Start Deserving It

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Trauma survivors turn alarm bells into dinner bells, and dinner
bells into alarm bells.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
It's insane, but it's really kind of common. I think
everybody it's childhood trauma. It's different versions of.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Child and I realized, well, my mother's still alive. Maybe
I can work on this with her.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Thanks for watching, guys. Today's episode is brought to you
by boost Mobile.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
We need to start calling it what it is. We're
in this period in time where we are like conservatives
have made us so afraid to actually just say racist,
or we're dismissed when we call something racist. Oh they're
being hyperbolical. People will dismiss us sometimes and we can
just like say this is racist. But I mean, there's

(00:46):
this is like, this is not a nuanced thing. None
of this was nuanced racism. This was not like a microaggression.
This was he was making watermelon and fried chicken jokes.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
I mean, girl, like, it wasn't just that. Are we
in like, can we sit the georshe Floyd? Can we
stip it off? Yeah, we're on camera already. I don't
know how comfortable you want to talk about this. You know,
I hadn't planned on it.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
But what I think we I think I think we
need to you know, I've had.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
We jumped into conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm going to stop in a second and introduce our guests,
but I do want to finish this thought because what
you were saying, well, well.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
The fast few years, I've I felt kind of afraid
because to say what's on my mind, because I was
afraid to lose opportunities. And I you know, people are
just not with trans people right now. No, but people
are never even fing with trans people now, and we're
in a fascist state, so unlike somebody has to sell

(01:42):
the truth. And when the history books look back, I
want to be a Christian, do you or not a
Coco Chanel? And for those who don't know, like Coco
Chanel is like a no, not Nazi sympathizer in your
opposed the Nazis. Anyway, there is some of it in
that the New Look show that was on HBO or

(02:05):
Showtime or something. But anyway, we were talking about the
Kevin Heart roast. It's you jumped in the cop I
was in the comments and I was like, he's known
Tony Hinchcliff is known for making racist humor. So He's
going to show up and be racist. And then I like,
I didn't watch the whole roast. I just watched. I
just saw clips and I was like, Chelsea killed it.

(02:27):
And then I kept, you know, watching the interview, and
then he said something else, and then I don't remember.
I have to actually pull up my phone, but then
he was saying racial humor. Kevin was saying racial humor.
I was like, racist. It feels like when you say
something that's racial, like it's racist. It's just it's just racist.

(02:49):
And it's his decision. It's for him to like, I'm
assuming and I could be wrong. People can correct me
if I'm wrong. A roast that he's involved in, he
has to prove everyone who's there. I know the jokes
were pre approved. I actually read something that there were

(03:09):
all these jokes against Trump that were taken out. Did
you hear this? Read I read this recently, adding check
the sources, you know, I want to like to double
triple check sources. But apparently there were a bunch of
jokes there were anti Trump that were taken out after
the people who saw it live heard those jokes, but
the recorded version they're out, so things could have been

(03:30):
taken out. So it's an interesting decision to have a
blamed racist. I mean that Nazi rally that they had
at Mathisquare Garden when Trump was running in twenty twenty four.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
I remember.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
I was talking to I was talking to someone and
they were like, oh yeah, yeah, people are calling this
a Nazi rally. People don't like that, And I said, yes,
a lot of racist people loved doing and saying racist things,
but hate being called racist.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
They don't enjoy that part.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
It's in that in the offense seems to be like
calling someone racist rather than the actual racist activity. And
that really speaks to the partly like Trumps emboldened people
to just let it all hang out because he does so,
he's given that He's created a permission structure for people

(04:25):
let it all hang out. But it also exposes this,
along with the recent Supreme Court decision that guide's the
Voting Rights Act, I think exposes the what I've always
known is that we've never really fully dealt with, like,
are racist history in this country?

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Oh god no, like not even closed.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
And to have like I mean, we it's people of color,
we know this, as black folks, we know this.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
But like.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
I think we need to keep saying it. I think
we need to keep this is why, this is why
they don't want to teach you either. But I find
I'm slowly working.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
I have this.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Idea, like for a video essay or an essay about
Justice John Roberts, because I think he is a really
interesting case study of someone who I'm you know, from Mobile, Alabama,
And I did not know about the Supreme Court decision
and Mobile versus Bolton until a few weeks ago, literally
a few weeks ago, and I'm from Mobile, and that

(05:23):
case was decided by the Supreme Court in nineteen eighty
that said that unintentional racism like racism that you didn't
intend accident, Like, yeah, unintentional, you didn't intend for something
to be racist in terms of law restricting voting, but
the outcome is racist, it is not a violation of

(05:44):
the Voting Rights Act. Two years later, Congress and the
Reagan administration, well basic, but Congress was Democratic, amended the
Voting Rights Act to say that unintentional like if the
impact of a law restricting voting as a racist outcome,
than it is a violation of the Voting Rights Act.

(06:04):
And when you think about Jim crow when they were passing,
when they had poll taxes and literacy test they weren't saying,
we are instituting poll taxes and literacy tests to keep
black people from voting. But again, the impactist is racist

(06:25):
and it's disenfranchising black voters. So according to the letter
of the law of the Voting Rights Act as it stood,
Calais should be a violation of the Voting Rights Act.
But the Supreme Court is also insisting, as they did
in twenty thirteen when they over earned preclearance, that racism
doesn't exist anymore in America, that we've moved past that.

(06:48):
The fact, the fact that they had to keep extending
the Voting Rights Act too, suggests that like, at some
point we're going to be past this racist thing. But
we can't get past it if we don't even ignowledge
that it happened, if we are constantly trying to rewrite history.
The rise of all the Confederate statues that happened in
the early nineteen hundreds, that was an attempt to make

(07:13):
people forget and to like valorize the South. The South
should have been punished for succeeding from the Union. They
never were punished. They were actually given reparations. Can you
I mean, like, can you imagine this the person I
read this like after emancipation instead of giving reparations to
the group of people who were enslaved created as chattel

(07:33):
slavery for centuries. Never mind the mental health peace right.
I interviewed doctor droidgrew Wow on my podcast a few
years ago, and she coined the term post traumatic slave syndrome,
and she like said, you know, she was like, there
was no mass movement to deal with the mental health
of a population that has been dehumanized for and made

(07:56):
to work for free as chattel slaves for hundreds of
years intergenerationally. That's deep trauma.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
So no reparations, no mental reparations. We can get to
get to other things by outside. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
We went to write it's all like good this means
because this was on your spirit, sa.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
It's on my spirit, honey. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
But it's important that people know or reminded that when
apartheid was abolished in South Africa, they created a new constitution.
We were living in an apartheid state until nineteen sixty five.
Black people did not have the full freedoms that the
Fourteenth and fifteenth Midment. It gave us until nineteen sixty five,

(08:40):
when we had the Voting Rights Act, we were still
not equal like in terms of like our franchise. So
we've only really been in democracy nineteen sixty five, and
the moment that Voting Rights Act was passed, there were
people working to overturn it, and basically they have And
it's that and the Job's decision from a few years

(09:04):
ago are reminders that these conservatives are relentless. They have
a long game and they they won't stop. There's constantly
like systems in place, and I think that's why having
a systemic critique and being critical of systems and ideologies
is more effective than like, you know, attacking individuals. I

(09:26):
think we love individuals. Understand that we've all we are
all struggling, all trying to figure it out, all trying
to figure it out, the work no and or don't
even know or don't even know where to start. Sometimes
you have to meet people where they are too, because
sometimes people don't know where to start. And then sometimes
what I realized with was with in some situations, some

(09:46):
people don't even have a framework to understand what we're
talking about.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
My my ex.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
I don't want to talk too much about him, but
he white dude, Long Island.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
I've saw that where you dated, well, he was like
a MAGA supporter or something. He it's not me, he was,
He's how can you?

Speaker 3 (10:04):
How can I date him with all of this on
your heart? I know I didn't know that you do
not know in the beginning. That's interesting.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
That mean I I you know, I think where I
had been with dating is that like I just would
choose not to go there, like when I when I
met so when I met in the screening process, you
look the way the screening process is different. I was
not looking for a boyfriend when I met him. I
was literally I was living between LA and New York.

(10:34):
I was looking for a consistent friend with benefits in
LA and a consistent friend with benefits in New York.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
So work, that's a different bedding.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
I'm not trying to like, I'm not trying to like
be your life partner. I'm just like, you know, is
it gonna be respectful but also respectful even for you know,
a friend with benefit or f buddy or whatever you
want to call it.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
I did.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
I require certain levels of respect and accountability and all
the things. So that was the vetting, initial vetting, and
then he told me he was in commercial real estate.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
That was a lie. He was actually a cop.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
So once I found out all these things, I was
attached to him and I fell in love with him.
And I didn't plan on any of that, and so
I'd always imagine that, like you can have conversations and
maybe love across political differences, and so that's what I
was trying to do.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
But that didn't work, like it was.

Speaker 1 (11:35):
It was clear to me that there was not even
a frank that like, he was just so dug in there.
I asked him at one point after we broke up,
these are questions I didn't ask while we were dating
because maybe I didn't want to know the answer. Say,
have you ever I had a moment in your life
where you realized everything that you've been told is a
lie and you had to like let go of all

(11:56):
that and relearn everything. And he said, no, I just
try to be the best person that can be, you know.

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Speaker 2 (13:58):
How could you even wrap your brain around if he's
in love with you?

Speaker 3 (14:01):
Back?

Speaker 2 (14:02):
How could you even be wrap your braying around being
in love and loving a trans woman but also supporting
a system that strips away her rights.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
And I think it's it's a cognitive dissonance, it's a
it's a compartmentalization, it's a by the time you know,
twenty twenty four, I broke up with them in March
and last week of March in twenty twenty four, so
I was like two years yeah, two years ago, so
and I.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Blocked him, and then like at one point we started talking.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Now, after a relationship is over, I like, you block, yeah,
And it's at least for thirty days for sure, no
contact for thirty I.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Think because I have a friend of mine in a.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
Group theory situation suggested that years ago, because when you're
in a relationship, when you're talking every day, if you
break up and you're still talking every day, you're not separating.
So it's a thirty days no contact. And then like
I remember, like he did the contact after the thirty days,
he like reached out and I was like, and then
I just remember sometime doing the the election season and

(15:06):
I asked him that question. It was after we broke up,
about like, have you ever, so I just think what
I realized for him is that the whole he was white.
He is white's white dude, blonde hair, blue eyes, not
the smartest guy I've ever dated.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Like I and I in the beginning, it was great, yoh,
you're so funny.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
I'm just I'm being on. In the beginning, it was
great because my life obviously, I'm very heady.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
I'm going on podcasts talking about ship like fanness.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
So it was like fun, just like to go go
home and just have fun and not have it be deep.
But if he asked any of these questions of himself,
he would have to, like everything that has been set
up for him, he would have to like interrogate, and
he doesn't.

Speaker 3 (15:58):
It's like, what would he be left with if he.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Realized like the privilege, the how the system that he
was working for, the like the racist system that he
is like enforcing and has pledged allegiance.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
To, it would shake his whole.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Found he would have an existential crisis, but that's part
of life.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
But like he would, it would really rock everything.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
So it's just too much and it's so dug in
deep too with him and his family, and it was
just necessascinating.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
That's why I'm not with him.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
But it's also fascinating because because I always trying to
wrap my wain around how how do.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
People get But you kind of described it.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Being in a relationship with him and being and it's
and it's we're in a place place now.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
I'm going to pull you out of this in a second,
because we would about this.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
We're in a place now where like because of the Internet,
we dehumanize a lot, right we like we're kind of
we don't always think about people as soul human beings
because of who they voted for, or it's anonymous online
or the media has manufactured consent.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
I mean the way it's.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
A really it's really obvious how the media has like
done a hit job on trans people to dehumanize us
in manufacturer like with through sports, through language and images
language like mutilating children, men in girls sports. What does
that evote because they're not it's the women and girls sports,
mutilating children, all this language that like does not encourage.

(17:40):
And then talking about trans issues, right, like we were
like we used and immigrants were the most discussed groups
of people during the twenty twenty four election, but we
were nowhere in sight. People weren't bringing us on to
talk about these things. They were They created a trans boogieman,
a straw man trans but chance boogeyman, and just like
created all this myth around us and people are dug

(18:04):
deep into it and it's deep watching people like repeat
these talking points. So like the dehumanization and it's not
just with trans people, it's with obviously with immigrants are
eating cats and dogs, black people, and then now it
extends to m Yeah, it's grows and so like I think,

(18:24):
like just for our own mental health in this moment,
like how do we like see each other as human beings?
And a lot of that is like for me, it's
always starting with like myself and what I have to
work on first, Like whenever I'm like and even when
I was in the comment section, like you know, commenting
on Kevin's interview, I wasn't attacking him because I'm not perfect,

(18:48):
but we're all in a process, Like he's a human
being who has blind spots, maybe because he needs to
for the money for who knows, But like even but
I didn't know around accountability. I remember when he the
oscar is controversy, and I think it was an old
tweet where he said that if his son was gay,

(19:08):
he would beat him or something, and he like he ended,
he withdrew from the oscar and I don't think they
fired him. And then I remember he would he.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
Was doing it.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
He was talking to Little nas X on that remember
Lebron James had a barber shop show or something on HBO,
and then he was just like, why does your sexuality matter?
And it was just kind of like why does your
sexuality matters? Feels like, you know, I don't see color,
like I don't see color. It matters because for little
nas X, as a black man who's in hip hop,

(19:40):
like he's going to be treated differently. I mean, we've
seen all of the homophobia that he has experienced. It
in a perfect world, it doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter,
like we are all human beings. But the only reason
these things and they're all social conscerlucts anyway, but the
reasons they matter is because people are oppressed because of
these things. The reason that race matters is because we

(20:05):
live in a racist culture and and and so that's
why we have to talk about it. And because if
we want, like if we believe that everybody should have
rights and should be seen as human and have access
to health care and employment and all the things. We
have to actually talk about the thing and it shouldn't

(20:26):
be and the only way to really do that is
to create safety. We can't. My god to Ray has
been cooling.

Speaker 4 (20:34):
Do you know.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
His channel his YouTube channel is sticking.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
He was talking about he had a show with that woman,
that doctor, doctor Briant, and she was he was the
clip he did, he did a whole screen about her,
but she was. He was saying the corporal punishment, like
you know, beating your children is not an effective thing
to do.

Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's not right.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
And then most psychologists agree, and then she disagreed and
said that like it's okay to beat your children.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
And all you know.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Then like he pulls up a clip of like a
professional saying that like when you're beating a child, that
they're actually in survival most so you're in Olympic brain right,
So like we have like and when we're in survival mode,
when we in fire fighter freeze, we can't process information.
So it's actually not you have to be in your resilience.
You have to be in your prefrontal cortex and you

(21:27):
have to feel safe. When you don't, we don't feel safe,
we go into the fire fight or freeze, and then
we can't process information. So the only way we can
process information is like in environment of safety. It's neuro science,
it's scientific. So I'm like, let's let's bring back safe spaces.
Do we feel like this is a safe space so
we can like I do, I do?

Speaker 3 (21:48):
I love you. I love you sitting here in all
of you. I talk a lot. This is inside of
you all day. Lord, I know it's a lot.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
I have to check out and like watch watch like silly,
I was TV yourself.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
That's so much great ship to say. So I just
was letting you go. But my god, I was like,
we have to get to this book yet.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
And in my note to myself and these podcasts is
to talk less, listen more conversation. So I'm constantly giving
myself notes and trying to be better everything I do.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
You're so good, though, so it's okay.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
It's like you're not like you're saying things that don't
need to be said.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
I appreciate. I agree, That's why I'm saying it. Yeah, no,
I am, and having the courage to say it right
now too. I think people are scared, and I'm scared.
I'm scared too, But I feel like myself when I
can Yeah, I love that for you and I can.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Just it's a scary time.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
Get anything, Get get my ship off? Can we curse?

Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yes? Please?

Speaker 1 (22:45):
I feel like myself when I get to say what
the fuck I need to say? Why?

Speaker 3 (22:49):
So Laverne keep me here and got some ship off
of chest? Now we can talk about.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
For references, you can jump in the comments section of
the Breakfast Club's post with Kevin Hart, so you know
what we're talking about.

Speaker 5 (23:00):
But as we start my podcast.

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Speaker 3 (24:09):
So today's guest, there's a true trail place.

Speaker 5 (24:16):
An Emmy winning actress, producer, advocate, cultural icon who has
transformed conversations around gender identity, representation and visibility at mainstream media.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
We know her from all the things Orange is the
New Black and many of the shows that she has
been part of, and she's helped redefine what authentic storytelling
could look like on television. Since then, she's become one
of the most influential voices for LGBTQ plus rights, mental health,
inclusive representation across entertainment and culture, and now also author of.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
Her new book, Transcendent. Gos Laverne Cox. You say you
dreamed of a career that no one had ever had.
Imagine that idea alone, that idea alone. You had this idea.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
You're this kid trying to figure out who you are.
You want to be an actress. Nobody that looks like you,
like you, has ever had.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
The career that you have.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Why on earth, where on earth did it even come from?

Speaker 3 (25:21):
How did you even dream that up? It a little delusion.
It's weird.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
When I was when I was writing the book and
thinking about my childhood, it was so hard to write
the book because I really wanted to like get to
the truth of what I was experiencing, and like even
if it sounded weird or childish or whatever, I needed
to just say what it was. And from my earliest memories,
it really was a like in relationship to when the kids,
you know, during daycare, when I would get bullied by

(25:52):
the other kids and you know, they beat me up,
and my mother was like, why aren't.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
You fighting back?

Speaker 1 (25:58):
And I remember distinctly thinking to myself, I'm above fighting
with these kids. I'm you say, you know, you a fighter, right, Like,
I'm not a fighter. I'm still I'm a lover, not
a fighter. And I'll get that friend of love. But okay,
I mean, I fight for my rights, I stand up
for myself, but I'm not I don't physically fight. But
I felt I was above it. I felt like I

(26:21):
was here for something bigger than that.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
I really did.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
And I don't know where that came from, but I've
always felt that. And when my mother gave me me
and my brother this Black history book when we were
about five or six years old, I kind of confiscated
the book and they were like these, you know, for kids.
They have these little pictures and these biographies are famous
African Americans W B T Boys, Martin Luka and Gorse
Malcolm X. I remember Catherine Dunham though, Mary and Anderson,

(26:48):
Arthur Mitchell, and Lantine Price were like I read them
over and over again, and Lantine specifically, I had never
heard her saying I didn't know anything about opera, but
she had this turban and it's high cheek bones and
she was just so dignified in the photo. And reading
about these artists, specifically Arthur Mitchell, the first black ballet

(27:08):
dancer to dance in New York City ballet. Catherine Dunham
started her own ballet company. Mary and Anderson, my god,
broke the color barrier at the Metropolitan Opera. But then,
when you know the Daughters of American Revolution didn't allow
her to sing a Constitution Hall eleanor Roosevelt was like
one just sing at the Lincoln Memorial and so instead
of singing for a few thousand people, there were millions

(27:29):
of people who heard her voice, and that changed things
and the things that these artists had to endure. At
six years old, I was like, wouldn't it be cool?
Because I always knew I was I was, you know,
wanted to dance, and I knew I knew I'd be
a dancer in transition acting. I knew this always, but

(27:49):
I wanted to dance, and so at five years old,
I was baging my mother for dance classes. Finally, in
third grade, I started to take dance. So I was like,
how cool would it be if through my work as
an artist, I could make things better for people who
follow me? This like the idea enters my head at
six years old. Six and so I had stuff to do,
so I didn't have time to like, can be bothered

(28:12):
with these kids in their petty and whatever?

Speaker 3 (28:15):
What I love about the way you framed out the book. Also,
when you.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Write a book, it's like, isn't it such a therapeutic
kind of I don't know, was it for you this
experience because because the.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Book it is, I think it is now as I
talk about it the process. I thought that memories I'd
forgotten a lot of my childhood, and I thought, and
I thought i'd use more of the when the way
I disassociated when like I would be getting when I
be beaten up or when my mother would yell, I
would disassociate and I would just go someplace else.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
I imagine I was Darcel the Least so the.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Gold Answer or Madonna. I love Madonna as a kid.
Then Culture Club and bored George came along, so I
would just I would literally disassociate it like that's not
unusual for child can't process all that, so I would
like go someplace else.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
So I thought I would be using that throughout the book.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Whenever I didn't remember something, I would I would just
go into whatever the fantasy was.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
But as I started working with my co writer for Lice.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
And she started asking me questions, memories started coming back, and.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
They were buried for a reason, like really.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Traumatizing things thing like ugly crying and just like like
core stuff of feeling dirty, disgusting, unlovable, unwanted, like just
the I never felt wanted. I never felt wanted, and
I felt like this incredible burden. I I thought children

(29:47):
ruined people's lives. My mother had two kids as she
was raising by herself, and she was always reminding us
how hard she had to work and how she had
no help.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
She worked for jobs.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
I'd actually realized until we were in high school she
was still working four jobs, which is insane, insane.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
But she was always stressed out.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
And my therapist thinks that she was a narcissist, and
that would explain a lot too. So she could just
go off at the drop of a hat. So I
was like walking on eggshells like all the time. And
so in figuring in we have when we think about
the survival things by flight or free there's also tend
in befriends. Some people call it fawning. That's also a

(30:31):
survival response. Tend In befriend is like, you know, with
the bears in the woods, You're like, oh, bear, it's okay,
what can I do to make you feel better? Everything's
gonna be all right. And that was me and my mother.
My brother was like flight. He was like, get me
the fuck out of here. I was like, I'm gonna
make I'm gonna make you love me. I'm gonna make

(30:51):
everything okay. And that was a lot of my childhood
because I I loved my mother, my mother so much,
and I thought, if I made all eights and I
was really, really, really good, she would love me and
she would want me. And but I didn't feel an

(31:16):
unconditional love.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
And I love because I just was right.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Let alone all the things internally that you were discovering
about yourself that was different than your brother and different
than your friends, and yeah, pretty much everybody else in
your school, everybody else. I love the way you framed
the book in three parts. So first part is what's
wrong with me, second part is what happened to me?
And then third part is what's right with me? So

(31:44):
good by the way, just that alone is so good.
I think all of us in our own lives, but
that those that framework, I kind of assess.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
I just told my therapist this, well, this is I guess,
this is them. She said to me in therapy.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
That is the journey.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Part of the journey to healing from trauma is that
we are in this thing of like what's wrong with me?
Like what's what's I'm? And then even then I had
teachers saying what's wrong with you? My mother's saying what's
wrong with you? Other kids saying what's wrong with you?
So like I felt like something was wrong with me
and like I wasn't right. And then it's then like
I get to a place of like, well, what happened

(32:18):
to me?

Speaker 3 (32:18):
Like there's nothing wrong with me?

Speaker 1 (32:19):
I'm I'm, I'm mating God's image, just something, but what
happened to me? And that is so complicated. There was
a lot of things happened. I was, you know, my
mother blessed her heart was like because of our own
childhood trauma and stress, she got pregnant and didn't plan

(32:41):
on having two kids. And then the sperm donor I
call them sperm donor. My father like never claimed that
it's never wanted us, and we were told to lie
about that when my mother told us when we were
if kids ask or if the teacher asked, say your
father died before you were born and you never knew him.
And so I did that until I wrote this book

(33:04):
the whole time. Yeah, out of respect for her, and
but like thinking about think about being like five years old,
and like that's that's the lie you're told. And then
you just keep telling that lie. And then obviously I
won't give this part away. But then we meet him
for the first time when we were in third grade,

(33:25):
and the only time.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
All these years he hasn't popped up. Mm hmmm.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
I heard about him, wuty, you know, you end up
like deputy in jail and whatever. Like my mother, you know,
I heard about him and what a piece of shit
he was, but I had never met him. You know,
according to my mother, he was a piece of shit
and based on his actions.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Experience. So just like a lot.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
Of shame, a lot of trauma, you know, other stuff
that abused, physical abuse, sex abuse, all like it's.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
Just ugh, ugh, and it's and it's.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
And I still like, I guess, you know, I've never
I've never talked about this. I've alluded to this sex abuse,
but like I've never really talked about that publicly either,
So to write about it all these things, it's like
and a lot of it too. It's like people assume
if your trance, like someone must have touched you or
something like that. But like I think hopefully people are smart.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
Well people aren't. People aren't.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
But now we know, like if you study this any
of this stuff, that predators prey on kids who are
like already outcast, kids who are already don't have support
and are easier to sort of because they're already alone
and isolated. And I think, and I remember, but I
remember thinking for years that the sex abuse happened when

(34:53):
I was that I was five years old and the
sexbyiest happened. But when I finally told my mother and I
write about this in the book, and we calculated it,
I had to I had to be.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Two years old.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
And I think an for a lot of years I
was I blamed myself. Yeah, I was like, what what
did I do to make you know? And I was
like I was two, There was like and when I
even in five there I wasn't my fault. But it
definitely wasn't my fault.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
It too so.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Carrying those thoughts around that you I did something and
that it was my fault, even.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
As an adult and you're such like a You've worked
on yourself, You've done therapy, You've Yeah, I just can't
imagine that you could think as an adult you that
that child.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
Well, I think adult me had.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
It took a minute to formulate adult me even when
I was like when I turned eighteen and turned twenty one,
I was still in denial about I would mean people
asking me about childhood. It was fabulous. Everything was fabulous,
Everything was wonderful. By that time, I created this persona
because I thought that's what I needed to do to
be accepted and to be so everything was fabulous and

(36:13):
fine and wonderful.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
And it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
And I got to a point when I could I
couldn't be in that line anymore. And it really, honestly,
I had to deal with the gender stuff first. And
when I started, when I started my medical transition in
nineteen ninety eight, and it's just the anxiety I had
around it. I was just a sense of relief and

(36:35):
it was the beginning of me like being able to
tell the truth to myself and so like that truth
like was like okay, so this, Yeah, my childhood wasn't great.
And I was terrified and I did feel unloved and
unwanted and unprotected for sure, not all the things, and

(36:57):
overcompensated by making all and winning talent shows is very drama.
The Gifted Child if people know that book, like I
felt like I would be loved for what I did
and what I could do, but.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Not for who I am.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Inherently that I had to do something to be loved,
not that I was lovable because I just am. And
that realizing that and then that's one thing, and then
like get finding a sense of actual worthiness because I'm
a child of God and worthiness of love that was years.

(37:33):
That was years, and that can only really be healed
in relationship to other people. Were potentially a therapist because
it's part of its attachment theory. And then like I
did group therapy and so so some of the people
in the group therapy helped a lot, and eventually some
friends and a few romantic relationships helped, but more friends

(37:54):
and wow, group therapy, yeah, wow, because it has to like,
because there's there's a difference between understanding something intellectually and
then to quote Morpheus from the first Matrix movie, there's
a difference between knowing the path and walking it. And
there was there was a point I remember of years ago,

(38:14):
I was the doctor's that was the doctor's office for something,
and I was getting old counseling.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
It was giving old counseling.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
And as you can tell, I'm I can talk my
ass off, and I'm kind of smart, you know, you know,
courting some people. But the doctor said, I can't wait
for your core to catch up with your head.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
That I can't wait for it.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
And that's what the therapy I've been doing for the
past ten years, the sematic therapy, because really, when you're
it has to land in the body. Taught therapy is great,
but it has a somatic means up in the body.
It has to land in the nervous system, because trauma
lives in the body.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
And to say the places you.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
Could say, you know, if I've experienced this tonight, blah
blah blah blah blah, and you can articulate all the
things that you're supposed to articulate, but actual.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Healing if my body has to know it, and I
need because the heartwiring, neurobiologically, the heartwiring is to pick
the abusive man because he reminds me.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
Of the way.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Still doing that for years until when did I stop
with the abuse of it was maybe twenty.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
Eleven twelve. You were repeating this learned behavior as a child.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, And Jennifer, my therapist, with one of the things
she said in therapy to me that like just blew
my wig back. She said, trauma survivors turn alarm bells
into dinner bells, and dinner bells into alarm bells, meaning
like the heart wiring we have, it's like the threat

(39:55):
we should run away from. But when you've survived trauma
and you're trying to maybe make sense of your life,
I think like the alcoholic ex I had in the
early two thousands was so HU would be mostly abusive.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
He was my mother.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
I was like trying to make my mother love me
by choosing someone like her. And I was like, I'm
gonna be amazing with him. He's gonna love me, and
that's gonna cure all. Like subconsciously, I didn't consciously think this.
This is insane to say out loud, but it's.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
Insane, but it's really kind of common.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
I think everybody. It's childhood trauma. It's different versions of childhood.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
I realized, well, my mother's still alive, maybe I can
work on this with her. But that yeah, I did.
I did, and she had she has her limitations. I
have to be real about it. She has her limitations,
and like the I think this is funny. But years
years after I came out to her as trans she said,
you know, like maybe like seven years afterwards, she said,

(40:48):
you know, I went to therapy for two years to
deal with your your transients. And I was like, I
was like, Wow. In my mind, I'm thinking, girl, that's
the least of your problems, my transfer. And that's not
to be shady, I just but it's like my grandfather
grew up on a plantation and he was beaten, and.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
Your grandmother was an abusive relationship with with him, with
my with my grandfather JP.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
But also she got married at twelve years old to
flee a stepfather who was abusing her. I mean that's
I mean women getting getting married at like twelve thirteen
in the South and like the early nineteen hundreds was
like standard. So she's flee she's fleeing as an abusive
man and then gets into a relationship Mary as a
man who's way older than her.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
That's abusive.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
She's singles, she has a couple of kids, she gets
her stuff together.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
And then JP comes along.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Wow, And and so this is what my mother is
born into and that abuse that he learned in the
plantation he passed on to my grandmother and to his children,
my mother, and that's what she passed on.

Speaker 3 (41:54):
And so like you give her a grace for that.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Absolutely, when I learned all this, I was just And
then even things that I will never talk about that
she endured in her life.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
It's amazing. It's my mother's amazing.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
She put her even with all that she put herself
through undergrad graduate school, she bought her up, pay for
a house full out, raised two kids, you know, from nothing,
like from nothing and still a lot of unprocessed trauma,
which is which makes me really sad. But I think that,

(42:29):
like it's just so much so many women people, period,
but so many Black women. My mom is in her seventies,
like dealt with so much, especially in the South, and
the depths of like misogyny and paid racism colliding. Is like,
it's kind of amazing that she's even still standing.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
It's remarkable.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
And she was singled four jobs raising two kids, probably
had no experience.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
I mean, I don't even think for them in their generation,
even the word transgender was a like was she even new?
She couldn't wrap.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
Her brain around raising a transgender child or what that
would require, Well, what type of I mean, you see
now there are there's so many resources.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
I mean, there's so many we're talking.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
I mean when I when I was eight years old
and Miss Ridgeway, it's like your son is gonna end
up and you one was wearing your dress. We don't
get into therapy right away. That was nineteen eighty. That's
what I was eight years old. I was, that was
nineteen eighty.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
And what did that do to you when you hear that?

Speaker 1 (43:36):
I mean I told it like it's a joke for
a while, a lot a lot of years. And then
when I dug deep out with some of the stuff,
I started remembering, Oh god, that's some of the stuff
I started remembering when I was writing the book, and
that that was like the turning point for me in
my childhood, where Like before that, I was just kind
of free. I like danced around all the time and
I was just myself. And after that it was like

(44:01):
me fanning myself like scarlettle Haare from Gone with the
Wind in class started like this whole family emergency and
like stressed my mother out and like I have to
go to a therapist, and my mother can't even know
how she can afford a therapist, and people are talking
about her. And I was like a prid. My mother

(44:24):
didn't have time for a problem. She was trying to
support two kids and make ends me. She couldn't pay rent.
Sometimes she didn't have time.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
For so I didn't want to be a problem.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
And all of a sudden, because I wanted to fan
myself like scarlettle Hair, I was a problem and I
had to be fixed and so that so then I
was like, Okay, I'm going to try, you know. That's
when I started censoring myself and started trying to like
rain in my mannerisms and rain like and just start
looking at myself from the outside so I wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Present a certain w Probably I did a terrible job
of it. I can't imagine I did a terrible job
of it. But like the shame.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
It was the shame that I am unworthy of connection
and belonging because I am this way that's very natural
for me, and so that was.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
It was. It was awful.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
And talking to my brother about it, I mean, just
the intellectual part of me, I think I go between
like emotion into like that's why I talk too much
and sometimes ramble. But my brother, like years later we
talked about like how that affected him and they for him,
he was like, oh, I really need to like and

(45:40):
like butcher up as much as possible, and because I
was like getting it from all sides. And what that
taught him is that like he really needed to like
stay within the lines of like gender and whatever.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
But then he also it.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Isn't that interesting though, how you are experience. This is
your experience. I mean, this book is really your experience.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
But you'll read.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Them, but even from that their viewpoint.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
But it's it within the resentment that he developed towards
mother because of how she treated me. I think him
he doesn't talk to my mother still, and it's for
his own reasons, but I think it feels it feels
like it's also partly how she treated me, and he's

(46:33):
forgiven her, but he just feels like he doesn't need
her in his life. And I just can never imagine
not having my mother in my life. I meet, you
meet your parents where they are.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
Have you never thought about interjecting and trying to.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
I was caught in the middle for a really long time,
and I feel like that was a lot of the
dynamic in our family, and at a certain point I
was just I had to draw a boundary and I
had to be like, please don't ask me about him.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
You know, do you feel any guilt about that?

Speaker 1 (47:05):
No, I've learned not to feel guilt about taking care
of myself. And this is what this is what therapy
has taught me that like, this is that drawing boundaries.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
Please tell me that again.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
I've learned to not feel guilt for taking care of myself.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
I don't have cares just for whoever needs that.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Boundaries of Like Brennan Brown says, the most compassionate people
are the most boundaried. And I feel that in my
spirit because I do feel like there's so much I
have so much love and grace for people. And I
think that's because I have boundaries.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
Girls, Good for you. I'm working on it. I'm working
on mine. It's really hard.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
What I ask you, what do you feel like you're
struggling with? In terms of boundaries, I'm just learning them now.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
Because I make excuses for people a lot, because I
have some compassionate person, I also realize everybody is just.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
A piece for a friend, excuses for family, everybody people,
and so I allow things to happen around people around me,
and I make excuses for people because.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Oh they have this, or oh they just because they
experience this, that's why they're like that.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
But then in the meantime, you let that happen to you.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
If you have people in your life and you allow
certain behaviors, you're kind of allowing that to happen to you,
even though you're it's you're framing it around giving people grace,
which I like to give people grace, but that only
works if you are conscious about the boundaries of.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
But another Venet Brown moment that's so iconic, she was
doing a workshop with this episcopal church in some of
w She's a qualitative researcher, so she like based the
research on people's lived experiences, and she asked the question
in the group, like deacons and episcoal ministers, do you
believe people are doing the best that they can and

(48:56):
or do you believe people are doing the best doing
everything they can and to pish you off, and you know,
people were like, I like to believe people are doing
the best they can. And then and then it was like,
if they're a person in your life, you think is
just doing everything they can to piss you off. Writes
the person's name down, and then and then they write
everybody writes the person's name down. Now, can you imagine

(49:18):
that this person's doing the very best that they can?
And then like a few people started crying. Renee, It's like,
why are you crying? And like there was his husband
and wife who wrote down the same person and it
was their I think their daughter or niece or someone
who they had had a daughter. She was a drug
addict and they were constantly giving her money, sending her
to rehab to try to get her better, and it

(49:42):
wasn't working, and they were just frustrated and angry and
like just resentful. And Renee's like, if she's doing the
best that she can, what then do you need to do?
Then we can't give her any money anymore. If this
is the best she can do, she's going to spend
that money on drug. I can't give her any money anymore.
I can't keep investing my energy and time into her

(50:05):
because she's going to continue to disappoint me and put
us in painful situations. So if she's doing the best
that she can, and we assume that people are doing
the best she can. Then that means I can't be
in your life that if this is the best that
you can do, I understand, but this is not good

(50:29):
for me. This is going to trigger old patterns, this
is going to have me. You have to take care
that's really and so that that's a place of compassion
for for for them, but also for yourself.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
And it's not it's not a mean thing.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
It's just like I can't pour for a minute to
cup if I'm if I can be if I'm going
to be of service in the world, I have to
fill up my cup and the overflows for everyone else.
And I can't fill up my cup if I have
people in my life that are draining me and sucking
me and have me in resentment and anger. Then so
with great boundaries that can be more compassionate.

Speaker 3 (51:08):
I'm going to take that with me today. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
By the way, the What's wrong with Me part of
the book, I think all of us should take this
time in our life to and write. Even if you
don't write a full book, write a few chapters on
like that part of your life, because like how you
talk about how What's wrong with Me period informed some
of the menu, dated informed, how you're managing your mom

(51:32):
and your relationship with your brother.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
Now kind of everything.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
It kind of informs everything. First of all, there's so
many I mean, you talk about suicide, attempt abuse, bullying,
even the moment. I mean, there's a page in here
I had marked it about you going through puberty, and
I can only imagine we were talking about this before
in the back. You know, when you're thirteen years old

(52:00):
and you're straight, I don't. I'm not thinking about my
sexuality as a kid.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
I wasn't thinking about sexuality either.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
I was called that's what I mean word a sissy
from my first interactions with kids.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
That's what I mean that you were forced to look
at sexuality. But for me, I don't.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
I don't think it was actually about sex when I
was three years old, when I was fir, I think
it was about me being feminine, right, and like, because
people conflate gender and sexual gender, I genating sexuality because
I was a very feminine kid. That's why they called
me the sissy and the effort and didn't force.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
You to think about it sooner than maybe you would
have because of other people's kind of.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
I so initially it was just it was like these kids,
I don't have time for these kids. But I also
like the irony of my life is that when I
was a kid, the other kids called me a girl,
and when I transition, people call me a man.

Speaker 3 (52:58):
And but that's that's the true.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
And then like even there were so many trans women
when I posted that, they were like, that's my experience too.
So it's really it was about my gender expression. That
I was a very feminine child and because I was
assigned mail at birth, they said to see, they said
f worth, they said queer, and so like for me,
I didn't even know what these were the first time
I heard these words, I didn't know what they were.

(53:21):
How did a three year old and five year old
know what? As I knew it wasn't good.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
They weren't saying it, it was it was not a
good thing. And then I just was like screw them.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Like, but I also like knew that I was a
girl too, But I also like knew that people were
telling me I was a boy. So what I like,
I'm aware now that as an adult like that, that
that awareness made me question everything from a really early
age and like and that's a good thing.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
This is a good thing, questioning like what people are
telling you.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Like when you know something about yourself and you know
something to be true and then people are telling you
the opposite, it's like, I just feel like maybe it
really forces you to.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
Grow up faster than you should be forced to.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
I certainly didn't feel like a child when I was
a child, and a lot of my I still need
to give myself to play time and still need to
give myself like give my inner child, like yeah space. Yeah,
I definitely did not. I was not a child when
I was a child. Yeah, that makes me sad.

Speaker 3 (54:26):
For you like that, for or for children in that situation.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
It is what it is, Yes, I mean it is.
I mean that's my life. And but it's never too
late to have a happy childhood, you know. That's like
one of the things in therapy. But it's true. Like
like years ago at therapist is like you know your
mother in lawe, we have all buy yourself a barbie
and play with their undresser.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
And I was just like I can do that.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
I was like yeah, And I was like and I did,
and I have and it's awesome And now I have
a Lavernecox barbie from Mattel, Yeah, which is pretty awesome.
I love the first trans person to have a Mattel
Barbie doll. So it's so you can that's and that's
for me. I think one of the biggest lessons maybe
from the book that I want to There's so many

(55:11):
things I want to say to people. But like I,
as a child, I was defenseless. I was not responsible.
I couldn't consent. But once I'm an adult, I'm responsible
for my life. I'm responsible for how I respond to
my childhood, for the situations that I put myself in.
I am responsible, so I to heal, to heal. Yes,

(55:32):
this happened to me because my mother did this, and
this person abused me, and this all the and we
were pool. All these things happened. But I'm an adult
now and I'm responsible for my life and I have
to take accountability for my life and responsibility for it.
There are systemic things that are that's real, but that's
what's my fifty percent. What can I control and so like, yeah,

(55:55):
all these things happen, but I don't have to be
defined by them. Yeah. Another part of healing from trauma
is like a lot of trauma survivors are overly either
they deny the trauma happened, which is what I did
for a really long time, or once they acknowledge it,
they're overly defined by it. By building trauma, resilience is like,
this happened, and it's in the proper time place in
your timeline because like usually, because the nervous system doesn't

(56:17):
know if a trauma happened twenty years ago, so once triggered,
the nervous system ex means is that it's happening right now,
which is great for acting, terrible for real life, so terrible,
really terrible for real.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
Lives while you're a great actress, but you get it.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
In the right timeline in your life, so that this happened.
But I'm not defined by that, this thing that happened
to me. I'm not defined by that. I'm defined by
the choices I make and by my resilience and.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
How I rewrite the story. Good for you, Yeah, second
part what happened to me? Yeah, is the second part
where there's reflection.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Now you're like, hey, wait a minute, some of the
shit wasn't right, and then your course correcting or you're
you're trying to you're at least trying to course correct
or grab hold of your own life the beginnings of that.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
You come to New York.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
It's kind of like that moment right coming to New
York in the nineties. Oh as like what twentyety three,
nineteen ninety three, By the way, New York at that time,
the gay clubs in New York at that time.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Your native or your native New York in Native New York.
I was in the streets in the nineties. So do
you disclose your age? I'm fifty four tomorrow, Okay, So
what I'm telling you is I was in New York.
Now I'm straight, but I know I was in the
gay clubs too in the nineties. Because the gay clubs
in the nineties was well, all the good parties.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
I feel like the parties were all integrated. When that's what.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
I mean, every time a time was being had.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Limelight when I arrived in twenty three, Limelight discut two thousand.
On Wednesdays, it was all the bridge and tunnel like
straight folks and then like the club kids and drag queens,
everybody parties together in the night was like I'm Cafe
con leche. Oh that's a whole Another book Caffee Collection girl,

(58:15):
but everybody literally Joey Rowland, who was one of the
party promoters, I did a song called the Gays, the Straights,
Bisexual Strength, Sexuals, We're here, We're all here, Cafe con
Leeche with it. Moved several different locations, but everybody party together.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Yeah, no, I know I was in those parties. I
always remember time in New York. The club seating of
New York was amazing at that time.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
So you've what a wonderful time to be in New York, right,
I a wonderful time to be in New York. But
also especially if you're.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
You hadn't you hadn't transitioned yet at that time, so
you're a young man at that time.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Well, I was gender non I would say I was
gender not conforming when I moved to New York. I
started wearing when I went to boarding school, when I
was the outbum school of Fine Arts, I started like
wearing women's and girls clothes, my colored, my Salvation HARMANI
like not a dress because I was terrified of ending
of the new one's wearing a dress. But like I
started wearing coulottes and bail bottoms, and I started wearing
makeup and shaving my brows and wearing lashes every day.

(59:08):
So like that evolved. And so by the time I
moved to New York, I had a lash on every day.
I had a shaved head, I would draw in my brows,
had a beat face, you know, every day. And I
had my very andros and as we call it, gender
not conforming now, but when I arrived in New York,
I was gender. I was gender not conforming and had
my look and that's and I was rocking it. And

(59:30):
it was I was harassed in the street during the day,
but at nighttime I would go to Limelight and they
let me ride in. I go to Webt to Hall,
they let me ride in, Flamingo East, all the all
the spots.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
So it was like when the night fell, I was
I was a celebrity. I was a star.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
I was like the reason the party that the club
kids like, they weren't club kids at your party. It
wasn't a party, right of course. So it was a
wonderful thing to be celebrating.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
Girl.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
It was wonderful to be celebrated for something I was
bullied for and still, you know, harassment on the street
during the day but at night it was magical.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
And I would imagine a lot of that informed your career,
right because you're finding you're starting to express yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
And and RuPaul had just like become an international like
phenomenon when I moved to New York and Club Kids
were on the Joan Rivers and like I before I
moved to New York and imember seeing Richie rich and
Tobell who I became friends with, and Amanda Lapour on
Joan Rivers show and Paris is Burning it come out,
So there was it was a it was a time
to be in New York and to be in that scene.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
It was the time to birth you, yeah, and kind
of give you wings to become.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
I came here feeling like look like I'm like, oh
my people are there. I always knew New York, even
before before knew anything about Club Kids, I knew it
was New York. The second I discovered Fame, that TV
show and movie from the eighties, I was like, New York.
That's where I'm then need to be, Like Imeen eight yeah,
eight years old. I would have been eight nine years

(01:01:01):
old when thing came up.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
Did you have an understanding at that time?

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
That there was room for somebody because while you said
there was rue Paul, and there was some.

Speaker 3 (01:01:13):
Rue Paul was later was in the nineties, but later.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
But I'm just saying representation was scarce for sure, you
know what I'm saying, especially trans representation. I didn't I
we didn't see that on a mainstream scale. Were you
already starting to understand the idea that you could be,
that that you could actually change basically?

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
I think I think about when when I sat when
boy George lay in Culture Club became they were huge
in the early eighties, and I was like, okay, and
then there was like, oh this crazy androgenic even on
Soul Traine feels at old cliffs of Soul Trained from
the eighties, the stuff that got through could you I'm
just thinking about all the like homophobic wrappers looking at
the old Soul Trained actual Jamaine Stewart being on Soul Train.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
We don't have to take our clothes. J Stewart, nig
old queen, but that you know, the.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
Pressed out hair lay but like girl like gay, like
just some gay stuff was happening on Soul Train, and
it just it was the eighties though, and it was
just kind of like I mean, people like Prince was around,
and like people thought Liberachi was freight, you know, so
it was just a different time, which is so fabulous.

(01:02:23):
So I just I believed I didn't think about The
interesting thing is I didn't think about like I was aware,
obviously I was aware I was black, but I didn't
think about these things as hindrances. I just I felt
like there was something inside me and I was a
star and I was talented, and that I should be
a star.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
People like always remembered me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
I had a presence, you know, obviously that need to
be cultivated into you know, training with training, but I
just always believed that I should be a star.

Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
And then I think, as.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
I when I transitioned, and then I like really started
existing in trans community and hearing experiences from other trans people,
and then like, yes, I'd been arresting the street my
whole life yet and bullied and stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
But like I was just.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
Programmed to succeed. I was programmed to believe that I
was supposed to be successful.

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
Wow. Yeah, And and the world certainly.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
And then there was a period in the nineties even
you know, I just remember I would when I worked
at coffee shop.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Unimember coffee shop. Is it still there by the way?

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
No, no, they just closed. No, it closed in twenty eighteen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Really it was the was still there on fourteenth Street.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
I'm sixteen in Union Square West because I worked there
for ten years. They closed in twenty eighteen.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
I remember. I was really sad. Is there a Taste Bank?
It's a Chase Bank. Now, it's really sad. Really, Oh,
I'm thinking the cafeteria. Oh, cafecina. Wellffee shop did close.
Doffy shop, right, and so I do remember coffee shop?

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Wow?

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
So wait was it?

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
So?

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
When I worked at coffee shop, people would come in
and I would like get like, oh, come in model
for this or come and do I would get like
opportunities working there. I remember, like even I was doing
runway coaching for someone in the nineties, like these twins.
They were these party promotors who were twins from Africa.
I forget their names. They had me like teaching girls
how to model for like already that girl. I was

(01:04:18):
just I was in New York and I was there
were there were just kind of opportunities for people who
were different, who were drag queens or gender not conforming
or club kids. There was just there were places to work,
like coffee shop. You could at least you could work.
At least you can go and have a get alligerate

(01:04:39):
job if you were lucky. And I was one of
the lucky ones. He was able to, like, you know,
go to coffee shopping, wait tables for ten years and
then lucky chang that I would have.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
Loved to see you in coffee shop. I would love
to go.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
I used to do runway down the aisles and it
was a time and I didn't even write about celebrities.
You used to come in to coffee shop. I'm a
waiting on Wanda Sykes. Tyrees Q too was a regular.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
I was there with cut tipt one time, Queen the
Church for another day.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Queen the Chief, Queen thea Tieva used to come in
to get She always ordered food to go. She had
a guess, we're head of recording studio because I worked
the grave yard ship she had a recording studio, thinking square.
She'd always come in. She'd have a fly posse, a
fly woman, and she was always super sweet and she
would order her food to go like it was a
great for the Grace Jones stories, a lot of things

(01:05:25):
that did not make it to the book, but there's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
A lot of things in the book which if we
had more time today we would go down many rabbit holes.
And the third just real quick before we wrap, of course,
the third part of the book is What's Right with Me,
which is the most the most inspiring, because it's like, yes,
you go through those things, and yes I have to
deal with all the shit I went through, But like man,
I did some so many things right. I did things right.

(01:05:49):
You represented it in a way that nobody else had.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
Thank you. You just got a lot of things right.
What is the number one thing that you think you
got right?

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
What I wouldn't say got right was what was What
I always had was a sense of when I didn't
believe in myself. I was deeply passionate about art and performing,
and for years people like, how do I get more
confident like you? I was like, I've never been confident,

(01:06:21):
but I have had fake it well, but it's not
even faking it. It's the passion and the love. When
I'm passionate, you seem you're sitting here talking to me.
When I'm excited about something. When I'm passionate, about something.
It takes over. And so the love and the passion
for performing, for learning, for getting better at what I do,
that just that overcame all the other stuff because I

(01:06:42):
was just so I wanted to learn, I wanted to perform,
and I wanted.

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
More, and I thought why not.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
I just remember years, like for years when I, you know,
watching reality shows and like watching the real world and
watching something like what would it be like if a
transperson were on this show? Why isn't a transperson on
this show? And then eventually I was on one of
their shows. So it was like it was having a vision.
It was looking around and being like I can do this,
and I should be doing this, and there's and and

(01:07:17):
and it was in seeing it for myself first. Coleman
Domingo kind of recently said he was talking about teaching
and acting class and like, you know a plus sized
girl that come in and done a monologue from a
fat pig, this Neila Brute play and Coleman was like,
why did you choose that? She was like, well, you know,
I'm heavy, and I thought that would be a good

(01:07:37):
monologue for me, you know, to go out in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
And he was like, when I saw you. I saw
Cleia Juliette, I saw.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
An agree new and and and he was like encouraging
her to like see herself differently. And he had to
see for himself as an actor that he could be
a leading man, that there were other things that he
could do.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
And so that's a.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
Lot, a lot of it was the vision and understanding
of what I believed I could do and still believe
I can do that I haven't had the opportunity to
do yet. And you have to see it. You have
to see it first. You have to have the vision first.
So I've always, for whatever reason, had that vision that
I can be. You know, when I was fanning myself

(01:08:18):
like Scarlett O'Hara, Yes, there was Butterfly McQueen and you know,
patting me Daniel, But I was Scarlett O'Hara. Not that
I wanted to be a white woman, but I wanted
to be the main character. I wanted to be the
object of desire and you know this hero's journey and arc.
And yeah, so at fifty four, I still have a

(01:08:38):
lot of work to do.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Yeah, but you've done so much, she must be Are
you not proud of your accomplishments?

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
You have to be.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
I am, I am and I and it partly because
it was it's so improbable that it could happen.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
But what.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
My career shows has shown that it's possible. When you
when you, when they're when you look at my resume,
I say, it's the first transferson to be nominated for
Prime to I made me first transferson and blah blah
blah blahlah blah, all the things because it hadn't been
done before. But I was the first, but I'm not
the last. And that really is the thing that I'm
proud to st of. So because now other trans people
see it, there's the there's the possibilities there, and it

(01:09:18):
can happen, and they're making it happen, which is incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Uh, this is going to be perfect and really hard
for you because it's a speed round.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Before we go, We're going to give you a speed
round of RL questions. Directors love me. I can take direction.
So what do you like most about yourself in real life?

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
I I'm cute and adorable. I think I'm really adorable
and and I really work hard to treat people.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
Wow, what is your superpower? Empathy? Nice? I am no
longer available.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
For people, places, and things that would allow me to
betray myself.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
I am no longer apologizing for anything heard you. I
didn't realize I was strong.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Until until I stepped back and took a look at
what I endured.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
How often do you think about your legacy and what
would you like that to be?

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
Whenever I think about this, I would think about what
my angeloue said to Oprah when Oprah said this school
in afric consul to be my legacy, and Angela says,
my idea, You have no idea what your legacy will be.
Your legacy is every person you touch. So I know
what I want to leave behind in terms of a
body of work. But I that really spoke to me

(01:11:06):
what may Angelou said. I think and when I meet
people whose whose lives have been changed because of my
visibility my work, I'm like, that is yeah, because it's
the people you have touched that like, you know, when
you're not famous. You know, there's so many people in
the trans community who aren't never famous, but their names
are carried on because they've touched people's lives.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
So what is the one thing that allies can do
better to be supportive of the trans community.

Speaker 3 (01:11:37):
What do we get wrong? What do we get wrong?
And what can we do better?

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
I think it's about listening more than you speak, and
whenever possible, elevating the lived experiences and the voices of
real trans people. We can speak for ourselves, We can
advocate for ourselves. We just need the platform to do it.
And when you see, just like when people, if you

(01:12:09):
see racism happening in front of you, see transphobia happening
in front of you, say something with love. You can
say and like with love, that's that's not cool. Yeah,
that's not cool. So if you have an opportunity to elevate,
you know, trans stories, because our stories rehumanize us, and

(01:12:29):
the dehumanization that creates a permission structure, takeaway rights and
commit violence against people. That's what we're in now. The
limb Con Center that studies genocide says we're on a
trans people in America on a slow course of course
towards genocide because of this administration, and genocide is can

(01:12:50):
only happen through dehumanization. So we rehumanize by connecting with
people's stories and their lived experiences. And when it's hard
to dehumanize someone you like, sit here, and you're like real,
and I would hope.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
I would hope too. Yeah, that's my hope for the world,
that I would hope that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
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Speaker 3 (01:13:55):
Okay, yeah, our voicemail before you go, come on, we
have we're.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
And then one question from the bowl and you're gone,
and then we're out of here and we're almost on
the time.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
I believe. I love Arne.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
I'm Joey. And my question for you is, when you
close your eyes and imagine you have a day off,
how do you decide to clean out?

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
Love you and thank you for everything that you do
for the community. Queen out? Is that a real term?

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
I thought of cleaning out as in a different jernks.
So the question is how on my off days, what
do I do to clean out?

Speaker 3 (01:14:24):
Queen out? I'm learning new terms today. I was exhausted
from that list of things.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
I was like, okay, massage, facial and then you go
to the club too, Like that's really that's a relaxing day.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
I work so much.

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
When I get a day off, I a lot of
times as sleep. It's I've been binging. I've been binging shows.
I just watched The Boys finally and binge that. I
love just binging out on TV and I rewatch a
lot of stuff. I rewatched Scandal like a few times recently.
And I love just being at home by myself, like

(01:15:00):
quiet quiet. It's a quiet because my work. I'm cleaning
out of my work.

Speaker 3 (01:15:06):
Right all day every day, like all day.

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
Every day in different ways, so like everybody should have joy,
but my joy is really it's my girlfriends, it's community,
It's I love trance people.

Speaker 3 (01:15:17):
We're so amazing. What's some of the best.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
Thing about the trans community being part of it that
we'll never understand?

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
I don't even get to experience.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
I mean, you know, everybody has every community has issues,
but the best the best of us though, like my girls,
My girls are smart, andsightful, resilient, anointed like we and like.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
But people have to what people should know and understand.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
I think I used to think gender one on one
should be a like core curriculum university. The gender binary
model is a Western European construct. Indigenous cultures all over
the world have like they move even in Africa, like
they move beyond male female. Well there have been like
in India they had the Hydra who were like this
thurgender Mahu and Hawaii. All over the world, indigenous cultures

(01:16:08):
had third and two spirit and different Native American tribes
and who we would think of as trans people, and
those hidra, like thehdraw would bless your wedding and bless
the christening of a child. We were spiritual leaders and
so many of these indigenous cultures. And I feel that

(01:16:30):
that inside of me and a lot of the trans
people I know who are in touch with their light
have a spirituality and a wisdom that if we just
listened we could learn so much. So I think that's
that the anointed spirituality. And I think, like, what, what

(01:16:52):
what really comes down to for me and my transness.
It's spiritual. Like it's so funny, there's like all of
the yesically transitioning was necessary for me, gender firming care
saved my life, it saves children's lives. But like what
it allowed was this spiritual the spiritual awakening. And all
my friends say the same thing, my closest friends. It's

(01:17:15):
being trans is a very spiritual thing. And that that's
I mean, that's amazing because when you're in when you're
in the spirit, girl, when Oprah used to do that,
like remembering your spirit at the end of the Oprah Show.
When you're in the spirit like in church, Like in church,
you get the spirit. You're in the spirit, like you

(01:17:35):
want to tap your feet, you want to like you're
connected to like to the energy of power source that's
greater than yourself and like we at our best, we
as trans people have that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
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(01:18:09):
the skills and everything you need to build the future
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our Bowl or questions from the IRO Bowl presented by

(01:18:30):
Walden University.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
You want to pick or you want me to pick?
When you pick your you pick one?

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
Okay, okay, goes dress take that one in this one and.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
Then we'll go. Okay and are you am I starting?

Speaker 1 (01:18:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
You got. Lately I've been reminding myself that health is wealth.
This is getting older.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
This is a getting older thing, and just like health
is wealth that I can't do anything. If my health
fails me, then I'm no.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
And it's only when it goes down that you realize
it and you appreciate it and pray for it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
So but it's something that I used to daily, you know,
take care of myself, and that's loving myself too.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
That's funny. What do you pray for most?

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
God, give me permission to do this imperfectly and allow
me to be of service. That's that's the prayer I
say most often.

Speaker 3 (01:19:29):
Oh say that again. That's good.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
God, give me permission to do this imperfectly and allow
me to be of service. I started doing it. I
was when I was doing a lot of speaking engagements
and I'm so hard on myself, and I was just like,
I'm not going to be perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:19:44):
And then I was also like.

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
The first transperson a lot of people would encounter, and
I was like, I can't screw this up. And I
was like, I'm not going to be perfect, but maybe
I can be of service. I know I'm going to
make a mistake. I know I'm going to mess up
so good.

Speaker 3 (01:19:58):
So there that's the final quest. Ristian.

Speaker 1 (01:20:01):
If God were to text you right now? What would
it say? What would the text say? If God were
to text me right now, what would it say?

Speaker 3 (01:20:19):
Don't worry, I got you. Just turn it over to me. Mmmm.
Laverne Cox in real life. Everybody, girl, girl, I need it.

(01:20:42):
I need it. Yeah, I don't miss the text. I mean,
I'm God, I'm just gonna I'm gonna just try to
let that, let that download a little bit. Thank you
for tonight. That was beautiful. This is Laverne Cox in
real life. Hey guys, thanks for watching.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Make sure you subscribe, like comments, and check out all
of the other episodes we have on Age Martinez Iro
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Laverne Cox: Stop Earning Love and Start Deserving It