Monster's Families Unleashed: The Grandchildren of Dracula & The Wolfman Speak out

For nearly a century, Dracula and The Wolfman have haunted our imagination. The faces of Bela Lugosi and Lon Chaney Jr. defined horror and helped shape Hollywood’s first cinematic universe. But behind the monsters were men of extraordinary artistry and struggle. In this chilling and heartfelt episode of Arroyo Grande, Raymond Arroyo sits down with Lynne Lugosi Sparks, granddaughter of Bela Lugosi, and Ron Chaney, great-grandson of Lon Chaney Sr. and grandson of Lon Chaney Jr., for an intimate conversation about the human stories behind the Universal monsters.

They share personal memories and family truths—why Bela Lugosi was buried in his Dracula cape, how Lon Chaney’s performances captured both compassion and terror, and how both families have fought to protect their legacies. Raymond also explores how Bela Lugosi Jr. changed entertainment law by suing Universal for control of his father’s likeness—setting a precedent that protects all celebrity estates today.

Together, Lynne and Ron confront Universal’s controversial “Dark Universe” revival, which replaced their grandfathers’ images with modern knockoffs, and they reveal how the real monsters of the golden age—Lugosi, Chaney, and Karloff—brought humanity to horror and emotion to legend.

This episode is both a tribute and a reckoning: a look at how family, fame, and art collide across generations, and how two descendants are ensuring that the men behind the monsters will never be forgotten.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
For nearly a century.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Dracula and the Wolfman had been seared into our cultural
consciousness by the classic Universal Studios movies, and the iconic
performances of Bela Lagosi and Lon Cheney Junior are the
reference point for any reboot. But are these classic Universal
monsters being sidelined and forgotten? The grandchildren of Bella Lagosi

(00:22):
and Lon Cheney join me for a spooky Arroyo Grande.
Come on, goodie, I'm Raymond Arroyo. Welcome to a Royo Grande.
Go subscribe to the show. Now turn those notifications on

(00:45):
so you know what's coming, and if you'd like to
support the show, visit Raymond Arroyo dot com who has
not seen the classic Universal films Dracula and the Wolfman.
Though nearly a century old, the performances of Bela Lagosi
and Lon Cheney Junior not only launched a monsters franchise
from the nineteen thirties through the nineteen sixties, but they

(01:09):
left a deep cultural impact on generations. Yet, when Universal
launched its Dark Universe the Monster themed attraction in Florida,
they abandoned the iconic actors that had long been the
face of the Universal Monsters Now, Lynn Lagosi and Ron
Cheney are here to talk about the legacy of their

(01:31):
famous grandfathers, why they still resonate today, and the decision
to hide the actors who created the Monster universe from
a new generation.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
I want to ask each of you this.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
I know you buried your grandfather was buried in his cape.
Tell me one of his capes. Bella Legosi was buried
in his capes. Why does that performance in Dracula endure
it today? And why was that decision made to bury
him in the case a role that he'd felt at
times locked into.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Linn Yes, I mean, in his own words, he didn't
know whether to call it a blessing or a curse,
but it You know, he never never took for granted that,
you know, that role had had given him the ability
to continue acting and even though he was type cast,

(02:24):
but he would that was not his request to be
buried in his cape. I mean, at the end of
his life, he thought he had been forgotten. He would
never have imagined that he is still such an icon,
a cultural icon, as he is today. But it was
that was the decision of my grandmother and my dad
to pay tribute to him. In that way. Yeah, So it's.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
An incredible legacy. Who who who endures one hundred years?
And I mean, and you know your grandfather has, Ron's
great grandfather and father has. There are a few people
in American culture that have that kind of longevity. Why
does your grandfather's role in the Wolfman and all of
the various iterations he played afterward, why does that predominate

(03:13):
in the popular imagination all this time later on?

Speaker 4 (03:18):
I think his performance showed a dual nature and man
that we can be, you know, sympathetic and compassionate and
then also be the other way and ferocious.

Speaker 5 (03:31):
And the way he played.

Speaker 4 (03:32):
It was he knew it was coming.

Speaker 5 (03:35):
He didn't want to.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
He would killed me and take me out. I do
a change of care, but stop me because I know
what I'm capable of doing. And I struck a note
with a lot of people like we're capable of being
both personalities sometimes. But he always played it sympathetically. So
most of the people that I hear is like, oh
my god, I.

Speaker 5 (03:56):
Felt so sorry for him.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
I wanted to help him, you know, I want to
to the screen and give him a hug and try
to put him in.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
His hag and help the poor guy right, And.

Speaker 4 (04:06):
I mean he made it come across that way. And
I think with that Roland in Lenny, he touched that
sympathetic chord in us that we all can.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Relate to, which begs the question I'm going to start
with you, Ron, why did Universal decide to exclude your
grandfather's contribution to the prototype of the character of the
Wolfman from that monster's unchained attraction in Florida. I mean
everything up to this time with Universal, it was that face,

(04:39):
that wolfman, that was always the image that we saw.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
I wonder myself why I don't understand that I've tried
to work with him. I am under in an agreement
with them because I try to work with them. They
know that I've always been open to that type of thing.
But I think that people that run it now nothing
against them. It's a newer generation. They're not just familiar

(05:05):
with that. So I'm not going to throw all the
blame on Universal. I think you have different companies own it,
and different people run it at different times, and they
really don't know the history, and I think taking the
characters and modifying also they don't have to pay royalties
on them. Also on products and things of that nature.

(05:25):
So I'm sure that plays into it, and I don't know.
All I can say is I did a recent campaign
with Legendary Comics and it's following. It was a graphic
novel and it followed the original books. But they did
one with lynn On Baylor, Lagosi, Dracula, and Carlaw with

(05:49):
the original book their adaptations from the original, but instead
of doing anything else, they didn't go and create a
new character. They actually they kind of did Baylor. They
used his image because those rights in the book, and
it makes perfect sense. And then they did Boris. Of
course they can't do the bulls because there's a certain copyrights.

(06:11):
You can't do flathead and all those scars and whatnot,
but they used Boris's face as it was depicted in
the novel.

Speaker 5 (06:21):
But it's Boris and it was cool.

Speaker 4 (06:24):
And then with Me, which was just recent, they did
the Phantom of the Opera and everything's as depicted from
Gostel LaRue's novel except for the Fantom. They didn't want
to go through with it, and I was so happy
that they chose not to create their own version of it.
And I know Robert that works there, and I know

(06:46):
Lind's he wanted the classic version goes. The only one
we had to add was, you know, pay people. Then
they all sold out, every one of them. So if
that doesn't say anything about what the fans loved, everyone
that the kickstart campaigns they did went over their projected amount.
I was really going to ask for that much they did,

(07:07):
and they did a marvelous job. But I think it
showed the dedication of the fans and the love of horror,
and they're the best.

Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah, I get fans contact us all the time. You know,
when there's a project that involves Dracula that doesn't feature Bailugosi,
you know, why is that happening? We want you know,
we want the Bila. And to speak to what Ron
was saying, the licensees that we work with, we work

(07:38):
with them specifically because they appreciate and respect the original
classic monsters and they know that that's who their customers are.
They want the original. They don't want somebody that kind
of looks like bail Logosi and you know it is him,
but it kind of it isn't exactly him. They don't

(07:58):
want that.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Well, that's what I mean, That's what threw me off
when I saw this Monster's unchained attraction in Florida, which
is an incredible attraction. I mean it's still they've got
all these animatronic figures and Draculas flying around. But I
have to say, when you're branding it as a Universal
Dark Dark Universe, you expect the characters.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
You know from the movie. You don't want to see
something else.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
And I have to say, all these characters are slightly off,
you know, the particularly the Dracula, and as I said earlier,
he looks nothing like the Dracula in the book. He
looks like a knockoff of Bela Lagosi. Is that copyright infringement?

Speaker 3 (08:38):
You know, there's there's a there's you know, kind of
a gray area. I mean, the character Dracula's in the
public domain, the book is in the Bramstalker's novels in
the public domain. We own the rights to bail A
Gosi's name and likeness. When Universal uses Beyla in any
other way other than promoting the film, they have to

(09:01):
have a license from us. And so I, like Ron said,
you know a lot of the people I want to
feel that work there or making the decision decisions maybe
just don't know the history or understand the fan base,
or you know how important it is at a minimum

(09:21):
at the theme park to have paid tribute to them
in some way, whether it was you know, a little
museum or statues or something so that the new versions
of the monsters made more sense. So, you know, while
there's you know a large number of people visiting the park,

(09:44):
I think will enjoy it. Like you said, it's so
well done. You know, people who appreciate history and value
those original performances. And because it built their studio, at
least their horror franchise, it's really a disappointment.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, it saved them from bankruptcy.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
I mean it saved a Universal at a time when
the whole country was about to slide into depression. So
it's rather a remarkable thing. But more than that, go
to any of the streaming services right now. You'll see
Lan you know Lan Cheney Junior, you see Bela Lugosi,
you see Boris Karloff. And there've been probably hundreds of

(10:24):
movies knockoffs of these movies made.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Those are still the classics.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
So it's like Shakespeare if you say, well this is
the original, I don't know why Universal when they own
all that IP wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Say we're going to take this to a new generation.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Went throughout my childhood, it was always these depictions, these actors,
faces of that performance that were carried clear into the
seventies eighties. Really this went on to the two thousands.

Speaker 4 (10:53):
Guys, absolutely, and there's an innocence about them as well.
And my grandfather said, you know, the best monsters were
played for sympathy. You know that that they resonated with
the audience. And I think people have always and I'm
sure Lynn has heard that. However they depicted those roles
and their characterizations, it just brought fans and it was

(11:15):
their either sympathy for or the allurement or whatever it was.
There was something they act or brought to the role
to make an iconic. Because there's been lots of pictures
or lots, but there's those few iconic ones. Whether it's makeup.
But yeah, that's a tough one. And I think probably

(11:35):
sometimes they do classics and mix them with them, and
that's what I really don't like. I wish they, honestly, Lynn,
and if we could do just classics, and they tried,
and I've tried to convince them a few times, and
you stick with your class and compare the difference. But
you know that impolves us and maybe they don't want to,
or maybe they don't have several I don't know, but

(11:58):
whatever the reason is, I think the fans will testify
to the iconic characters, just like and other characters, and
you know, you identify the studio with those.

Speaker 5 (12:10):
Why would you change them?

Speaker 4 (12:12):
Doesn't make sense to me.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Lynn, You want to say, oh, I just think that.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
You know, over the years, we have worked with Universal
for special events at their parks in both in Florida
and in Los Angeles, so you know there has been
some element of keeping that alive, but really not not
that much, you know that you would think. But you

(12:39):
know what's nice is there's actors that play Dracula at Universal,
and many of them have contacted us to say how
fun it is and that they obviously they've studied Beyla,
so they're not just being a generic Dracula. They really
want to portray Bayla as they walk around the park,

(13:00):
you know, justice Dracula.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Well tell me tell me, just because I don't know,
are there any dolls or figurines at the new park
that they've licensed through you all?

Speaker 3 (13:13):
You know, I've had I've had fans send pictures of
the shop and that, and uh, yeah there are and
I have to look into.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
That because yeah, well you better.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
I mean, if I'm going, I haven't been there yet,
but I'm planning on going because I've seen the images
in the video of the attraction. But my question is,
if I go, I inevitably want to have a Bela
Lagosi or a Lone Cheney junior wolf man in Dracula.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
I don't want a generic Dracula or well.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
Listen, one of our good friends, who's an artist who
is a consultant for our business on Lagos's likeness, recently
went and visited and he forgot his hat, his you know,
his cap, and so he just wanted a cool Dracula
hat you know, or something.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
You know.

Speaker 3 (13:59):
He ended up getting some thing. But it really I
just think you will we could have done better than that.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
I'll say, Ron, you wanted to add anything before we
move on.

Speaker 4 (14:09):
Well, I haven't been to you. I haven't been there yet.
I heard it's have mixed feeling. In fact, I think
what started interview with you as a fan had gone
and expressed his displeasure with the change, and I said, Hey,
that was eloquently written. Can I use some of this,
you know? And I send it to Universal. So I
don't know how it came through, but I think it started.

(14:30):
I can't remember his name right off him. But there's
a place for both. I understand Universal, understand what they're doing,
but there seems.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
But Ron, I'm going to stop you for a second.
I'm going to stop you for a second. I don't
understand as a fan with no skin in this game. Okay,
if I'm doing a Universal Monsters attraction, the public wants
to see the Universal Monsters.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
They know. Now, Look, if there's some.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Recent iteration of the movie that they think works, fine,
put that monster out there. But none of these monsters
are from a recent iteration. They're all knockoffs of nineteen
thirty one and nineteen forty one.

Speaker 5 (15:14):
Yeah, I wouldn't.

Speaker 4 (15:17):
I wish we could be forefront and center because that's
always what I've been trying to do, is preserve and perpetuate,
And it's almost like they're battling against me to do
that when I think what we could bring to the
table would make it so much stronger. I don't understand
their their philosophy. Other than it's money, you know, I mean,

(15:37):
let's space it. I think that's what comes down because
they would have to actually work with this and get
approvals to do that. And you know, the funny thing
is when the actual artists that do these things, when
they get to work directly with this, they love it
because their heart is in it.

Speaker 5 (15:52):
So is ours.

Speaker 4 (15:53):
When you have executives, their heart isn't in it as much.
It's about how many, you know, people we can get through,
like any business. I think maybe that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (16:02):
It's business and.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
I know, but if you can enter right, No, but is.

Speaker 4 (16:06):
It better for them financial? I guess only their accountants
will know, probably because I can you know, see I know.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
But Lynn, from an audience perspective, if you're read, if
you're building a Harry Potter attraction, you're putting the actors
from Harry Potter in the attraction here with AI. You
could put Bella Lagosi in Castle Dracula and ron Elan
Cheney around the corner.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
Your reaction, Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I mean
I can't, I don't. I don't understand it. I mean
I do understand a place for other interpretations or maybe
a more modernized version. Fine, but as long as that

(16:48):
progression is there would be more interested to have experienced
the originals and then you know, also have the others. Yeah,
I really I do have a hard time understanding it.
I mean, if you go to any of like the
classic monster websites, including those either run by or approved
by Universal, they have the original monsters there.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yes, yes, lady, yes yes they do. Ron I'll give
you the last word on this.

Speaker 4 (17:16):
Well, all I can say is an example is you know,
and I was pretty frustrated with not much I could do,
not my business decision. But they had been trying to
tear down Stage twenty eight at Universal and Hollywood forever
because but people stood up to it because it was
still functioning working stage. And I went in there, and

(17:37):
you walk in there, it's like, oh my god, the
Phantom of the opicer that still had the building percentum.
I mean it was. It was amazing. And they still
filmed in there and used it. And I came in.
They asked me to use Lawn Cheney's name and rename
the streets in Universal and I'm like, oh, this is awesome,
you know, lawn Cheney Drive. And he goes right, by

(17:58):
stage twenty eight and probably with that, so I'm all excited,
went to the dedication and everything, and that's what we
went in there for a second time.

Speaker 5 (18:06):
But then I think.

Speaker 4 (18:08):
Two years a few years later, they tore it down,
the piece of history. They tore it to the ground
and put a ride in there. So if that doesn't
give you, I mean, yeah, it was taking up some space,
but it's two rides. Now I think it's a Pokemon.
Somebody told me. Now I could be.

Speaker 3 (18:30):
There was a scene from Dracula filmed there on the balcony.
Scene in the opera was filmed there.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
It was a studio twentyth grade scene.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
And you know, it's a part of history, and I
think both lenn and I are part of trying to
preserve history, not tear you can get it, you can't
once it's going well.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
You know, look, part of the conceit of this show
is we talk about culture and preserving it, and this
is a piece of American culture. And I would argue
one of the foundational pillars of the movie industry, and
certainly the first crossover universe where you had a universe
of reoccurring characters that stood alone and then came together

(19:13):
universal coined that and your grandparents and were really at
the heart of that.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
I am Bracula Bella Blasco.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Your grandfather was a Hungarian war veteran. Why did he
travel to the United States?

Speaker 1 (19:29):
Initially?

Speaker 3 (19:31):
Oh, initially he was very active politically in organizing one
of the first trade union of actors in Hungary, and
with the political turmoil at the time, he ended up
on the wrong side and on a black list, a
death list, and had to flee Hungary, you know, under

(19:52):
thread of death and went to Vienna and then onto
Berlin and made films there. But that's originally why he
left Hungary. He left a successful stage career there and
film career because he was very passionate about the actors'
rights and you know, unfortunately got on the wrong side

(20:13):
of a current regime at the time. But anyway, he came,
you know, from Berlin too, through New Orleans and immigrated
into the United States.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, I love that New Orleans collection.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Tell me about the Tell me about his the connection
between that Berlin stop and his style of acting. Was
he part of that impressionist German impressionism of the time.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
Well, he was definitely there at that time, and actually
worked with Carl Freud again in Hollywood in a later film,
so he definitely was in that mix. You know. I
think it was quite a shock to his system to
come from very traditional Hungarian you know culture to Berlin

(21:02):
in the nineteen twenties when it was you know, pretty
permissive and that, and I think he, you know, probably
enjoyed it to some extent. But yeah, I think the
style of acting and just the influence of the time
did you know, shape him, although he had already crafted

(21:23):
his style of acting on the stage and brought it
with him, you know, to the United States and to film.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
The remarkable thing to me he gets this role in
Red Poppy, which was his first Broadway role, and he
really can't speak English. How was it possible that he
did he performed on the Broadway stage.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
I guess he just learned it phonetically.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
He did for that for that play, he did learn
it phonetically. He the director and producers hired a coach
for him. They practiced every night in the hotel, and
then he went on stage and he did such a
good job. Didn't know that he did not speak English,
But soon after that he became fluent in the language.

(22:07):
There have been some rumors that he learned his lines
for Dracula phonetically, and that is not true.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
That's not true. He had already spoken English by that point.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
Now he first is Dracula on Broadway.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
What did he learn?

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Did he leave anything or tell your family anything of
what he learned in that performance that he brought to
the later film.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, he definitely created his unique characterization of Count Dracula
on the stage and brought it to the film. Unfortunately,
I never met my grandfather and he was quite a
bit of an older father to my dad, and so
they didn't talk about things like that. Why I wish.
I wish they did, so that we would have those stories,

(22:52):
you know, from my grandfather to my father. But no,
I think that he spent his life. He wasn't class
trained in Hungary. He he had to, you know, really
fight and learn and you know, move up in the
theater system there. And so I think by the time
he got to New York and he did a lot

(23:12):
of Hungarian language stage plays, when the role of Dracula
came to him, I think he had already had his style.
It was just that, you know. My personal feelings is
that he was born to play Dracula, not only the
area of the world that he was born in, the

(23:33):
culture that he was familiar with, you know, the accent
and just whatever that magnetism that zudes from him that
he created in that role, that is, you know, imitated
or inspired you know, other roles of Dracula since then.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, Ron, you want to add something.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
Yeah, I just was listening to Lynn. I'm like, and
he had amazing stage presence. Yeah, imagine who was he?
He was like six 'y three, wasn't.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Helln I think six' One, Okay, yeah.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
You know he HAD i don't think people knew, it
Didn't they have piercing blue, eyes.

Speaker 5 (24:16):
Very handsome man and agent.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
An incredible baritone.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
Voice yeah, yeah and the voice you know.

Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeh he definitely commanded the. Stage.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yeah, well when you read the.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
REVIEWS i went back and read some of the early
reviews and they talk, about you, know women swooning and
passing out when he comes on. Stage he was kind
of a sex. SYMBOL i, mean he did have that
seductive quality that you see in the. Film but you
can imagine this on stage eight times a, week, RIGHT i.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Mean, today still, TODAY i think he has as many
or more women fans as.

Speaker 5 (24:49):
Men oh, yeah not.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Bad But, ron the curious thing is When universal goes
to Make dracula in nineteen thirty One Bela, lugosi it
was not their first choice for the.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Role it was somebody closer to your.

Speaker 6 (25:03):
Family ron suggested that he would have Played, dracula but
unfortunately passed away in nineteen thirty after his one and
only talking, Film.

Speaker 4 (25:15):
So that, OPPORTUNITY i, know it's been. RUMORED i did
find some piece of paper with no true identifying mark on,
it but was in a lot of My universal files
about he was tabbed to play that.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Role and it isn't that? Something, Yeah, well back.

Speaker 4 (25:33):
To nineteen twenty, seven he Did London After, midnight which
was kind of that same character That brams.

Speaker 5 (25:42):
Created.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
Ron let's talk about your great Grandfather Lon cheney first
in the teens into the. Twenties he's really the first
actor who he's also a makeup.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Artist where did he learn that? Craft do we?

Speaker 6 (26:01):
Know?

Speaker 4 (26:02):
Well, really you, know he's not known as much for
his stage career because they most people know about his stage.
Careers he was in la and they had this catastrophic
event with my great grandmother and it made him go into.
Film otherwise he would have stayed on, stage but he
had already that. Event, well she attempted suicide when he

(26:25):
was performing with the stage production Of Colbyn dill In
la and kind of ended his career and her career as.
Well so it was kind of a turning point in the.

Speaker 5 (26:38):
Family that was not.

Speaker 4 (26:39):
A good, thing but it also propelled him into film
because he had find a new. Occupation and he told
her he would quit this stage And i'll find something.
Else and he had to find a new career and
a lot of the stage actors at that time had
come off of the. Stage he had worked with them
Before Fatty. ARABUK i mean there was a lot of.

(27:01):
Them he worked With Leo, moran just a lot of
stage actors that would go get these film work on
these films for extra, money but then established things and
these were friends of. His so he came over and
one of the things that people don't, know just BEFORE
i move out the, stage he was on stage for
a Bat Let's see started in nineteen oh, two so

(27:25):
his first film credit was nineteen, thirteen so he was
eleven years on. Stage but he wasn't a classical stage
actor in the sense that you, know they would play
a town in Or.

Speaker 5 (27:39):
New york Or chicago or big.

Speaker 4 (27:41):
Cities he was a barnstorming, vaudevillian which from nineteen oh
two all the way to nineteen eleven he was Like Johnny,
Cash i've been everywhere.

Speaker 5 (27:53):
Man because he was spent one and two nights.

Speaker 4 (27:57):
STANDS a long stint would be maybe a week at
a park because this is when it was Still indian
territory In, iowa out in the middle of.

Speaker 5 (28:06):
Nowhere so not only did he develop his.

Speaker 4 (28:12):
Acting, skills but he had to play a lot of,
characters which he really enjoyed. PLAYING i, mean that's what
he really found a lot of.

Speaker 5 (28:23):
Fun in.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
Doing for, Him, yeah, well he later became known as
The man of A Thousand faces because of his ability
to transform himself on. Film did he pick that up from?
Somebody did he apprentice with makeup?

Speaker 1 (28:38):
Artists what? Happened or did he just pick it up
on the?

Speaker 5 (28:40):
Road he, WELL.

Speaker 4 (28:44):
I guess you, know have to go back to his
early childhood because he was born of deaf mute, parents
and so his first ability to communicate was pantomime and sign.
Language he didn't speak till he was almost four years
old and start having formal because he grew up with you,
know in a deaf community and. Family he was the first,

(29:07):
coda let's, say are Certain and he learned a lot
of expression and, communication you, know from. That and when
he found the stage because he worked as a property,
boy his brother got him a job. There and the
second he saw the actors changing characters and becoming somebody

(29:29):
different each, night he, said you, know he fell in
love with the. Stage AND i think just Like Baili Legsingboors,
carloff they all did stage, first even my grandfather who,
said you, know the really true mark of a great
actor is when they can perform on stage.

Speaker 5 (29:45):
First and all of these men came from stage.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Backgrounds RON i found something that your great, Grandfather Lawn
Cheney senior. Wrote he, SAID i wanted to remind people
that the lowest types of humanity may have within them
the capacity for supreme self. Sacrificed the dwarfed misshape and
beggar of the streets may have the noblest. Ideals how

(30:12):
did his personal life you mentioned he had two deaf,
Parents how did that shape his artistic? Choices once he
came to, film.

Speaker 4 (30:22):
He was shaped by his parents very. Deeply his father
was a. Barber he worked for thirty years as a head, barber,
headchair he, learned AND i, mean family has an interesting,
history that's for, sure but most become that side of our,
family which was The. Kennedys they formed schools for the

(30:42):
deaf in eighteen sixty and in eighteen seventy three In
kansas And, colorado so they had the first schools for the.
Death so kind of started. There and you, know people
would ridicule a handicap and we still, DO i, mean
but you, know it was even worse than you, know
like everything, else we've.

Speaker 5 (31:03):
Evolved but.

Speaker 4 (31:06):
He saw that his father was known as the millionaire
barber because he Cut stratton's hair and he was struck.
Gold but he was also known around town Dummy. Cheney
so he grew up with that in Some, corman and
it kind of built, THIS i don't, know a little
anger in, him you. Know and he saw empathy in,

(31:30):
people AND i think his roles always reflected that, Almost.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah that in The, phantom in The, HUNCHBACK i, mean
and these are silent, movies and you see the.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Great humanity he brought to those. Characters that continue. Today.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
Absolutely you, know people still are blown away by. It
i've been to a number of screenings of The phantom
this year because it's one hundredth, anniversary AND i mean.

Speaker 5 (31:56):
They're still selling. Out you, know it's just. Amazing.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, well and it's the.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
HEART i think it's the heart he brought as an,
actor beyond the, makeup which is so, incredible but beyond,
that the deep sympathy for these characters that he brought
to them in the silent era with no words is
an incredible.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
THING a real.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
Talent he knew how to emote that feeling for, people
and one of his quotes was, about you, know you
don't have TO i think it was to Marry philbhen
and the thing you don't have to cry real tears
or might even Been Patsy Ruth. Miller she, said it
isn't about you getting into the emotion and playing, it

(32:40):
which is part of, it, certainly but you have to
make the audience feel. IT i can't do, that you,
know you haven't. Connect and that's what makes a difference
of a wonderful actor when they connect to their. Audience
and he learned on stage.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Ron BEFORE i go back To, lynn tell, me how
Did Long Cheney senior that example shape your? FATHER i imagine
that's why he pursued decided he wanted to be an
actor himself after seeing this iconic figure in the.

Speaker 4 (33:13):
Family, Well Long senior was my great, grandfather but he
didn't want his son to go into the. Business he
was against it because even though you hear of all
of his successes at the, end and you still remember.

Speaker 5 (33:28):
These, movies.

Speaker 4 (33:31):
He had to persevere through so, much so many hard,
times so many times all sounds glorious. Now they went
broke on the, Road they had no. Money they were like,
vagabonds constantly trying to get to the next down to
get enough money to get back, home and stranded a
number of. Times AND i took. Him he was At

(33:51):
universal nineteen. Thirteen the first time he got noticed was
in nineteen, seventeen and he had already done one hundred
and So i'm on, films but nobody knew who he
was because he played all these different characters all the.

Speaker 5 (34:04):
Time he wasn't very rarely the.

Speaker 4 (34:07):
Lead but then people started noticing his changing, characters and
then he'd started becoming in. Demand and it wasn't until
his film was the penalty that he overheard the director
and the producer talking about.

Speaker 5 (34:24):
How'd you get?

Speaker 4 (34:25):
Changing and he, said would you get him for? Me
and what did it cause us to do this? Production
it's like five hundred a. Week he, goes you got
him for five hundred a, week AND i mean at that,
TIME i mean even, then because he was as sending
up the ladder at that time.

Speaker 5 (34:41):
He overheard.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
It he, SAID i never used that against, people BUT
i never really had a sense of my own. Value
but it made me understand THAT i brought more value
with my art that people wanted to.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
See And i'm going to get back To launchaining and
of course his Great you're really the you, know one
of the families that you have the father and the
son who are part of These Universal monsters and iconically
created so many incredible.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Characters But, LINA i want to get.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Back To Bella, lagosi who if it wasn't For, lugosi
this Universal i'll call it a, franchise The Universal monsters
franchise would never have taken off in the nineteen. Thirties
so in nineteen thirty, One english is obviously not his first.
Language how did he Approach tracula the. Film how did

(35:35):
that come to? BE i, know he wasn't paid what
he was worth, either.

Speaker 3 (35:38):
Right, well you, know at the, TIME i think why they,
hesitated you, know casting him for the role was because
he basically was coming from the. Stage he was unknown In,
hollywood you, know for the most, part And universal was,
struggling AND i think they knew that this film needed

(36:00):
to have star power and needed to be. Successful and
even though you, know people who Reviewed bail on stage
and he was playing the role on stage In Los
angeles And San francisco when they were you, know deciding
who to cast as the. Role SO i think most
people around him and he himself thought that he was

(36:21):
the natural pick for the, role but he did have
to fight for, it AND i think eventually a contingent
Of universal executives saw him in the play and then
brought him down for the the you, know interview and.
Audition but it's you, know been told that Maybe universal
held back on that decision to build tension in the,

(36:45):
press to get people, curious to get bring publicity to,
film who's going to be, Cast who's going to be
cast until they finally announced. Him but you, know he
had established that role and he really brought his portrayal
from the stage directly to the, screen and so it
was an easy transition for. Him although you, know at that,

(37:07):
time a lot of people looking back now look at
the film and say it almost looks like a film
stage play the way that the scenes were shot and,
That AND i think that's that's because it was an,
early you, know sound talking horror film and he was
bringing his performance from the. Stage listen to, them.

Speaker 5 (37:33):
She the, nie.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
What's? Amused he could lam.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
ME i read somewhere where he said the director helped
him gauge the, performance dial it back a bit that you,
know he so the showiness that he had on, stage
he actually pulled some of that. Back but you have to,
realize these, actors it's not like actors today who are
familiar looking at themselves and looking at their image and
hearing their. Voice this is a whole new world for

(38:01):
these people in the nineteen thirties and.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
TWENTIES i, know he told one of his best friends
didn't he didn't want to ever see his films because
he was such a perfectionist, that you, know to see,
it he would just criticize. Himself he didn't want to
see what he could have, thought he could have done,
Better so he really didn't go to his own.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Films, wow when you watch the movie, today AND i
just watched, it his approach is. Slow there are a
lot of, pauses pregnant pauses that he. Fills you, know
was that because of the unfamiliarity with the. Language was
that an intentional? Choice what do you think that? Was
as you watch?

Speaker 3 (38:42):
IT i AS i watch, IT i, MEAN i can't,
say you, know but you, know he went on to
play other roles and that was his, style AND i
think it was it was that style that was maybe
made of those pregnant, pauses maybe that were. Intrigued you,
know people listened to, him people paid attention and his,

(39:03):
voice SO i think That i'm not sure that it was.
INTENTIONAL i think it was his, style but it certainly
served him. Well and of, course now when people Imitate,
dracula even though they don't know they're imitating By, lugosi
he Is, dracula so they're imitating that voice in that.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Style, well and when you read the, book WHICH i
did not long, Ago dracula is very different on those
pages than the character your great grandfather.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
CREATED i, mean he is or your.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Grandfather, rather he is an entirely different creature with the
slick back hair and the aristocratic. Bearing in, fact the
book says he's a little disheveled and had a mustache
closer to that Nos feratu movie we just. SAW i
thought was horrible by the way it lacked all the
elegance That Bela lugosi brought to the. World how did

(39:57):
that come to define the, character if you, will in
the in the minds of the.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
Public oh, WELL i think that, that you know that
how he Portrayed dracula's this debonair seductive evil walking among
us is what people attracted them to his, role you,
know and what was so powerful that it's still he's

(40:23):
still popular. Today And dracula portrayed or of any vampire that, can,
uh you, know the, sexiness the, seduction the human. Visage
you know that that is for whatever, reason that is

(40:45):
SCARIER i think to people than a monstrous face because
you don't know what's. Coming.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah, well it's that seductive power of evil that he brought.
Out and when you look at all the actors who
portrayed vampires really, Successfully.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Frank langela And Tom, CRUISE.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
I, mean when you look at those, actors they all
really are knockoffs A Bela, lugosi let's face.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
It, YEAH i, MEAN i don't think anyone can help
but being inspired by, that whatever twist they put on
the role and bring their own. Interpretation it was such
a powerful performance and so unique for the, time, iconic.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Iconic, well AND i Forgot Christopher, lee of, course who's.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Really the carbon copy Of Bella.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Lugosi if they ever was a knockoff, understudy he would
be it. Right tell us about your Grandfather Ln cheney,
Junior ron how did he come to play The wolfman
in nineteen forty? One and again he's really the third
part of the trinity here of you know these universal.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
Monsters, well LIKE i was, saying When long passed, away
he didn't really want his son to go into the.
Business but you go back to him growing up around
two theatrical, parents and then as soon as they weren't
on stage, Anymore long continued on, film and he watched
his father go from a bottom up to this huge.

(42:12):
Star but What lan had learned was the difficulties of
the business and the treachery and a lot of the
studios and taking advantage of the actors and selling your
soul and that type of. Thing so he kind of
steered my grandfather away from, it even though my GRANDFATHER
i think was destined to do, it because as soon

(42:33):
as his father passed. Away it was only a year
later that you, know he announced he was interested in
going into. It he got a few, calls and then
by nineteen thirty two he signed WITH. Rko he said
during his father's illness at the end that though we
couldn't even speak at the end because he had throat

(42:56):
cancer and he was dying via sign, language the new
SIGN i, mean you, know that was one of their,
languages and he. Couldn't he gave him his blessings to sue,
that and so my grandfather then they wanted him to
go in As Lawn Cheney, junior and he felt and

(43:18):
probably knew better than anyone else there was only One Lawn.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
Cheney so he took.

Speaker 4 (43:22):
His that's WHY i signed with PAR ko so he
could work under his own, Name Creighton. Cheney but he
said it, helped you, know he eventually changed it because
the studios kept seeing to Be Lawn Cheney, junior and
eventually he. Did but he struggled really all the way
from thirty two to nineteen thirty. Nine he got, roles

(43:44):
but really nothing of. Note he did Some, independence but
they went under so he didn't get all the films.
In but, eventually when he was basically, broke he had
already separated with my, grandmother so that was another split
in the, family he landed the role of Playing lenny
on stage on The West Coast run and it WAS

(44:07):
i think similar to What linn said That baylor was
destined to, be you, Know. DRACULA i think the one that,
launched truly launched my grandfather Was Lenny Enough mice And,
men because he was no longer the son of an,
actor but recognized for his own, performance and it WAS
i think still one of his greatest performances.

Speaker 7 (44:29):
Ever because of that popularity now AND i Think baylea
And boris were aging and my grandfather now, popular they
wanted a new horror, star so they signed my.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
Grandfather he did some westerns, first but then they Did
The wolfman and at the end of mainteen forty one
was like right after you, know we declared, war so you, know.

Speaker 5 (44:56):
All these things are going.

Speaker 4 (44:57):
On it's amazing in, history but that role now solidified.
Him and the Wolf man is he was always his
baby and, uh you know it was he was the
only one to ever play it in the Five universal,
films and it was, well he Called lendy his bread

(45:18):
and butter because he could always go To thatt.

Speaker 5 (45:20):
As directors wanted to be that.

Speaker 4 (45:22):
Character he's so good and, uh and he didn't really like,
that but you, know he knew that that's what they,
want And i'll give the director what they. Want so
but The, wolfman and then he went on to Play
frankenstein and The mummy and also, Tracked.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah he's the guy who he's the only actor to
play all of that, that, uh the lexicon Of universal
monsters really on. Screen he's the only guy who really does.
It bela comes very. Close but you knew your, grandfather
you knew him as a as a young.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
BOY i.

Speaker 5 (45:54):
Did, YEAH i was passed.

Speaker 4 (45:56):
Away.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Wow any any anecdote or memory that stands out that you,
say this is the MAN i, knew this is WHO
i want.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
To pass on to the memory.

Speaker 5 (46:06):
Of, WELL i called him.

Speaker 4 (46:07):
Gramps that's what he, had refer to him As. Grams
but he was, misunderstood, certainly he had his, flaw, certainly
but he was a very, compassionate heartfelt human being so

(46:28):
kind of lived in that same role that he actually
a wolf man a little. Bit but for me is his.
Grandson he was just a, loving, warm big teddy. Bear
you know that just he loved you knew when you
saw him he.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
EMBRACED i love that.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
PICTURE i came across and it's your grandfather in the,
middle AND i think your father's in the shot dressed
as Either dracula Or frankenstein's, monster and he's in the
wolf man outfit outside of the make up a room
there At, Universal AND i just love that shot because
you know he's embracing, them not as a monster but
as a.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
Dad it's.

Speaker 5 (47:08):
Sweet absolutely he.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
Helped you, KNOW i do makeup, too but unions didn't
allow him but on that because it was a fun
shoot and he had the makeup artist there And. Frankenstein
and there's my Uncle, lawn so it's my Uncle lawn As.
Frankenstein my dad Was, bracula and Then grandpa's The. Wolfman
so that's the shot you may be referring. Too had done.

(47:30):
That he never talked to anything about the movies because you,
know my parents separated WHEN i was really, young so you,
KNOW i learned more of. It my mom stayed very
close to my, grandfather so we would go with mom
and go See grahams and stay with him and and
then meet my dad there sometimes or go individually with

(47:53):
my father to his.

Speaker 5 (47:54):
Ranch but you, know he just made his, work you
know WHAT i, mean that's what your free. Labor, Okay, Dad.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
We have a wonderful picture of my dad sitting on
your grandfather's lap dressed as the Wolf.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Man, absolutely when you read biographies of both of these
men And Boris karloff though less, so you realize the
great financial and personal hardship that came with embracing these
roles and becoming so identified as an actor with these
one iconic, role you, know one iconic role that the

(48:33):
public wanted to see them and talk to me. About
the financial hardship that really from the start They La lagosi.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
Endured oh, YEAH i mean it was he was always.
Struggling you, know when he with the success Of, dracula
he you, know he really thought that he could be
financially successful in, film and you know that was his
struggle his his whole. CAREER i mean it was, always you,
know if you, know being. Typecast the roles that he

(49:03):
really wished for weren't coming to. Him he never felt
that he could show the audiences the breadth of his acting,
ability and you, know it was always a struggle he
and he didn't drive and he didn't, fly and so you,
know in between films and slow periods during the time
when they really weren't making a lot of horror, films

(49:25):
he would drive across the country and do appearances in
summer stock and and tour and it was, always you,
know a fight for financial. Survival and he my. Dad
they enrolled my dad in the Elsinor naval And Military
school when he was in first, grade and he boarded

(49:46):
there from first to sixth, grade because you, know they
were constantly traveling and trying to you, know he was
trying to support his, family but it was it was very,
difficult and Like ron said about his great, grandfather my
grandfather really strongly advise my dad against going into the
acting profession or the entertainment you know, world just because

(50:08):
you were at the mercy of the studios of, producers,
agents you, know, directors and you really he didn't want
that struggle for my. Dad he wanted to have a,
profession which my dad eventually did and subsequently brought the
case Against universal that won the rights for all of

(50:28):
our families to protect the name and likeness of these. Actors.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
YEAH i need to talk about that in a moment
because that's so important about the likeness and how you,
know The universal had all of these rights and there
came a time when they, Didn't AND i want to
talk about that in protecting and extending these. Legacies but
BEFORE i, Do, LYNN i guess many of these tours
when he was out barnstorming across the Country Bella, LEGOSI.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
I guess he was Playing dracula on the. Road, yes for.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
The most Part dracula and then Later arsenic And. Oldlace
he played the same role As boris.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Did boris did that On, broadway initially playing a knockoff
of The frankenstein.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
Character, Right SO i know that the story behind that,
is you, know When boris left the, cast you, know
and they wanted to you, know tour with the. Play
they Wanted bailings in no way you, Know i'm not,
following you know in, that and so finally they talked
him into it under the condition that the line in

(51:30):
the play that, oh he looks Like Boris carlov had to,
say he looks Like Bayla. Lagosi and so he agreed
to that. Role and he was quite successful playing playing
that role In arsenic And.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Oldlace these two men had such an odd.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Dance And ron you can speak to this, too BECAUSE i,
know you know the History Boris karloff And Bela. Lugosi
bella turns down the role Of frankenstein after the huge
success Of.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
Dracula first of, all.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Tell me what what how meaningful was that success in
nineteen thirty, one not only to him but To Universal
and why did he turn down the?

Speaker 3 (52:07):
Role, WELL i, think, yeah you, know we can go
into the history of the you, know the financial problems
the study was having at the, time but you know
they it did did save their studio and allowed them
to continue on the success Of dracula because Of bayla's
performance to you, know make the to Make frankenstein and

(52:30):
the other horror. Films but when my grandfather was first
introduced to the, Screenplay Robert florey was the director and
the screen writer For universal For, frankenstein and he Cast
beyla As Doctor. Frankenstein and. Bailiff he has the. Script you,

(52:52):
know he felt like this was going to be even
more of a successful role for him Than dracula. Was
And i'd denounced To Robert florey or my. Grandfather universal
brought In James whale and they Cast bela as the,
monster and he was very upset about. That you, Know Robert,

(53:14):
florey my grandmother, friends you, know do the screen, test
do the, makeup and you, know maybe well you can
still talk them into, you you, know playing the role
of Doctor. Frankenstein so he. Did there's twenty minutes of
footage of him as the. MONSTER i understand that's, lost
but he just it just he was he really stuck

(53:37):
to what he believed was how he communed with the,
character how he portrayed, it and he just felt that
he couldn't do that in the heavy makeup with no
lines as the, monster and so he did turn down the. Role,
now my grandmother feels that, really if he had been well,
represented his agent would have, said, Listen, bayla you, know

(53:58):
with your success Of, dragon you should just take this,
role keep your you, know keep your. Status is this
this you know Within universal in the film, world is
this horror, star and you know it was too important
to him to stick to.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
What he thought picked by his guns and by the,
way he would have been a heck of a lot
better As frankenstein as as Doctor. FRANKENSTEIN a guy who
played the role who reads is such a handbone today
but years, later, curiously years later on he plays The
Bela lugosi Plays frankenstein In Frankenstein meets The.

Speaker 4 (54:34):
Wolfman When graham's Did The, wolfman he was very. Popular
then they Wanted worce to come back again As frankenstein
in the fourth one because they were making. Money so you,
know my grandfather went in and Played, frankenstein.

Speaker 5 (54:51):
So he was the next in.

Speaker 4 (54:52):
Line so So boris And bayla And Lon i'll have
that compality of Playing frankens The, monster Frankens stein And Universal.
Pictures So, psycho how like you were Saying raymond about
you know how it just flow like. Long senior. Didn't

(55:12):
he passed, away so we don't know if he would
ever done. It but it went To, bailin and then
it went To, boris and then it went To lawn
and then the three of them did a lot of movies,
together a lot of it Did they are iconic characters
and actors of The Universal, war and all the fans
acknowledge that and love it.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Lynd is it true That Bella, lugosi when he turned
Down Frankenstein's, monster that.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
It was he who Suggested Boris?

Speaker 3 (55:36):
Karloff you, KNOW i don't know about, That you know,
THAT i don't have any facts to document, that and
he NEVER i don't have any stories that he has
told that to. PEOPLE i don't. KNOW i have heard that.
Too i'm sure that they probably maybe recognize each other
or knew each other or something from being on the

(55:58):
on the, lot you, Know, universal BUT i don't. KNOW
i mean they went on to you, know be you,
know obviously competing for a lot of the same, roles
but also you, know respectful of each other as actors and.
Cordial it wasn't this mean rivalry that you, know even

(56:19):
at the time the press put out in the rumors
that have you, know been perpetuated even, today and If
sarah were, here she is you, know she confirmed that
with you, know her. Father you, know they took so
different lives off offset that they really didn't, interact but
when they, did they were you, know.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Cordial and, respectful same with my.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
Grandfather they've always somehow create controversy between, them but he
had the respect for both of those, actors and that
amazing they had all of the same, roles you know
that they would be. Considerable so, Yeah i'm really sure
you want to get, it But stacked absolutely.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Well. Ron the amazing thing, is you know they then
later so they're all of these crossover.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Movies you've Got house Of frankenstein in nineteen forty, four
which really is the First i'm going to call it
The Monster universe crossover where you Have cheney And karloff
And strange And, carrotine but then Later Bela lugosi As,
dracula your grandfather as The, Wolfman, ron AND i Guess

(57:30):
Glenn strange as The monster In abbot And Costello Meet, frankenstein.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
WHICH i grew up, on my children grew up, on and.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
It's still it's such a cool movie because they're all everybody,
together you, know.

Speaker 5 (57:43):
Absolutely you know that was.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
Only the second time That bayle Played Count, dracula and
film you only played. Twice, yeah isn't that?

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Amazing, yeah it, Really but it ends up being the
most successful universal crossover though of all these characters were
on it.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
Is and ALSO i think my grandfather knew that era
was over too when it became a. COMEDY a little bit,
sure there was a little bittersweep to, it but he
embraced it and he played his role straight up like he.
WOULD i think they all. Did, yeah so classic have At.
Costello how could you? Not you wouldn't think it would
Marry and they made it to, perfection you, know the Whole, yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
EVERYBODY i think that's why it holds.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
Up you, know it holds up because it's, like, wow
all of these creepy monsters are crashing in the middle
of this goofy.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
Comedy but they kept the.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
ACT i, mean they didn't lean into the comedy as
much as they kept their personas you, know and we're
true to the.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
Characters that's the best way to put.

Speaker 4 (58:43):
It, Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
Lynn, earlier you mentioned something THAT i want to circle back,
to And, ron you can comment on this BECAUSE i
know it affects your life as. Well and AS i
look in your background, There, ron AND i see the
Wolf man and The phantom of The, opera and you
know your your, forefathers if you, will and their iconic
achievements After Bella lugosi dies In. California your Father lynn

(59:08):
petitioned the court for the rights to his likeness and
lost the. Case california said, no and then that was.
Overturned tell me what happened there and how you're working
to preserve that legacy and extend.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
It, Well i'm very proud of my, father And i'm
glad you asked this question because the course of events
have affected all families of deceased. Celebrities but when he
was in law school AT usc here In Los, angeles
it was brought to his attention That universal was using
his father's name and likeness on, merchandise, models, puzzles, lunchboxes

(59:46):
things like. That and one of his professors, said, NO
i don't think they can do. That so he brought
the case Against Universal lugosi Versus Universal, pictures and it
was they won in the lower. Courts courts determined that
By lagosi owned his likeness As Count dracula he created

(01:00:07):
on the, stage he brought it to the film and
he had licensed his likeness To universal for a, film
And dracula's daughter to the you, know they burn, him you,
know in a funeral pyre and they have him. There
so he had used you, know he was he Was.
Dracula he owned that he they it was appeal went

(01:00:29):
to the appeal by universal and went to The Supreme
court Of, california where they. Lost and they lost not
because they didn't the court didn't agree with that By
lagosi owned his own. Likeness there was no precedent for
a celebrity's name and likeness to be a property right

(01:00:50):
that you could pass to your. Heirs so they lost
on that. Basis but what it did is it then
The california legislature passed a law and acted a law
called The California Celebrity Rights act that protected to see
celebrity's name and likeness and made it a property right
that they could pass their.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Errors, wow And, ron how have you all used this
right to your in your, case your, grandfather your great
grandfather's likeness and? Name how have you used that to
extend the? Legacy how do you protect?

Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
It it's, DIFFICULT i can tell. YOU i, MEAN i
don't go to a lot of. Shows and lindsay we
have met at a few, shows BUT i don't know
she does very, many BUT i don't do very. Many
eyes you, go especially the horror conventions. EVERYWHERE i, mean
it's really hard to protect it per. Se But i'm

(01:01:46):
really working with a lot of wonderful companies because they
grew up on it like we did and having a
love of it and their sculptors and, artists and they
don't want an alternate depiction know who these people.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Were So.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
I'm just working with a lot of companies and people
are really loving the. CLASSICS i Think i'm finding that
across the. Board so it is, difficult you, know if
we can make money at, it and we. DO i
work hard at it to try to make something out of,
it but not big on. MINE i will have to
ADMIT i am more. CONTRACTORS i stay with my contracting

(01:02:27):
NOW i do the entertainment full. Time but if it
wasn't For Baylet, Junior lynn's absolutely right because that, existed
and when when the rights passed down to. Us WHEN
i filed THE cc, nine ie know IF i remember
that section and we did that and it at least

(01:02:49):
allowed me to, say, hey, universal wait you, second and
they write the argument was, HOPE i don't get in
trouble for saying this is you can't recommend when he's the. Wolfman,
Okay i'm, like, okay wait a, second he's himself and
he changes on screen to The. WOLFMAN i think it
was over them using footage and other movies of their
own where they didn't have to pay anything because they

(01:03:11):
felt they owned it. All but in the, CONTRACTS i
would actually say their attorneys have always been a top.
Notch they covered about everything except for one. Thing they
forgot merchandise because in the time they were signing those,
contracts there wasn't merchant a little, bit you, Know phantom wasn't. Included,
yeah and so that was pretty good that you can't

(01:03:32):
use that. Person he didn't sign his contract to use
him outside that. Movie they can advertise all they want
to but their, movies but they can't use them outside of.
Them and that was WHEN i went against him for.
That and they did try to say that he did
make a living at. It BUT i had posters when
he did some personal appearances later in, life like he

(01:03:53):
was much, older and then he had his picture of himself,
older and then he had The wolfman right now impeering
him for Well man. Launching you, know they just, went,
okay we're going to, settle you, know we're just less
work And i've always been that. Way i'd rather work with,
somebody let's negotiate, something because when you make things come
to a, hall it's tough to come back from. Them

(01:04:15):
AND i also, realize, Well i'm not an attorney, everyone
and they're. Expensive BUT i did this BECAUSE i want
to AND i THINK i have some of that creativity in.
Me it's not about the, money But i'd like to
use the money to do new creative things using my
grandfather's legacy and different. Projects And i've met with good.

(01:04:37):
Success BUT i think it does go back To Baylor.
Junior he did such a great, job and he was
a young, man you, know wasn't very old when he did.
That to take On universal was quite a.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
Challenge, yeah that you know, well and you know to Clarify,
raymond you, know the law is to protect the commercial
use of the name and. Likeness SO i think For
ron and The cheney family and For sarah and for,
us the licensing, part the merchandise, part is primarily a

(01:05:13):
way to keep the legacy alive and to protect. It,
people especially maybe with Bay lagosi and The, vampire could
tend to use it. Inappropriately you know that we wouldn't
be comfortable, with and so the merchandising is a way
of protecting the likeness right as you, know our grandparents

(01:05:38):
and parents would have wanted to be. Portrayed but it
also allows us then to do WHAT i call like legacy.
Projects you, know we have donated the cape to The,
hit the Screen Worn cape to The Academy Film museum
here In Los, angeles and our collection Of bayla's films

(01:05:59):
on sixteen mail meter and thirty five milimeter to The
Academy Film archive under The Bai lugosi. Collection so you,
know being able to have those rights has enabled us
to protect protect their legacy through merchandise and through these
other legacy.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
Projects well that's WHAT i thought AS i read the
story of how this happened and your you, know your father's.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Involvement.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Lynn it really is a way to protect and keep
pure the artistic contribution and the cultural legacy of these.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Men and this is look What Santa.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Claus is To, Christmas Bela lagosi And Lon Cheney junior
And Boris karloff or To. Halloween it's an annual thing
that's part of our lives and our children's lives and
their children's children's, lives so you have to protect it
BEFORE i run out of. Time each of you have
films in, development really about your. FAMILY i Know Leonardo,
DiCaprio it has been Reported linn is developing a project

(01:06:55):
based on Young Bela. Lagosi have you been involved in
the process there at?

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
All, no that was that announcement was a surprise to.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
Me, wow, well well you'll be involved before. LONG i
bet you bring.

Speaker 4 (01:07:11):
A lot of in.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Ron you're working on something as.

Speaker 5 (01:07:13):
Well, Right i've got a couple of.

Speaker 4 (01:07:16):
Things we have a stage. Play it's a musical CALLED
A Thousand. Faces we premiered it a couple of years,
ago And michigan comes to the low scale we want
to try it. Out it's a marvelous. PLAY covid hit
us on opening. Nights we had to shut down for
the first, week so we didn't get what we were
hoping out of it other than performing it and saw

(01:07:38):
how moved. People but it's really not a story so
much about monsters per, se you, know or that. Side
it's about people and relationships and what he went through
in the hardships and what he persevered to go. Through
so it kind of takes The act one is really
early in his. Life he's kind of reflecting back and

(01:07:59):
then it comes to, yeah a Young creton And lawn
and my great Grandma cleva up to WHAT i discussed,
earlier you, know this tragic events in her family that
Ends act, one an act too starts where he's got
to go into the movies and the song that's my favorite.
Song it says look ahead and it's very. Touching so

(01:08:19):
that's one of. It working on a screen about my great.
Grandfather As i'm putting my final touches on the, book
my grandfather started a century Of. Cheney SO i starteding
that my book And i'm looking At i'm going, like,
Man i'm gonna start writing this BECAUSE I i've written
other SO i kind of learned how to do. That
not THAT i was necessarily a, writer BUT i think

(01:08:41):
as a working at the, creativities PROBABLY i got some of.

Speaker 5 (01:08:44):
IT i had to want to do, this BUT i enjoy.
IT i do it BECAUSE i love that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:50):
AND i hope THAT i leave something as an inspiration
for other people to take from my family and the
struggles they went through as.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
WELL i LOVE i read somewhere that you found a
box and your Grandfather Lawn Cheney junior had made notes
on the back of pictures and had notes in a
box that no one knew.

Speaker 4 (01:09:07):
Existed, WELL i remember when my, grandma Well granda's had
passed away And grandma had to move because of health,
reasons so we went and helped her move In San,
diego AND i. Came when we got to the, garage
there was two. Boxes it says picture book on the
side of one of. Them AND i remember at that
time to this, moment AND i, SAID i Remember grandam's

(01:09:31):
working out because he had pictures all spread out all
that AND i remember talking to a little bit about
not really paying a lot of.

Speaker 5 (01:09:36):
ATTENTION i WISH i had.

Speaker 4 (01:09:37):
More but WHEN i pulled it out and opened it,
up AND i started seeing all these pictures of my
great grandfather on stage and my great. Grandma and it
was called A century A, Cheney so it's about a
one hundred years of entertainment with the Three cheneyes together.
Collectively and then he had notes on his dad about
The phantom and The. HUNCHBACK i didn't know WHAT i was,
doing BUT i, said, Yeah i'm going to do this. Book,

(01:09:59):
WELL i had no idea WHAT i was, doing but
lo and behoored twenty five years of. Love at the
Final it's, Coming it's AND i left everything in there
of my grandfather that he wrote and, then BUT i
tried to fill it out WITH i think where the
inspiration came from early when The chinese came To america
from sixteen fifty, onward and how they ended up two

(01:10:22):
hundred and fifty years later In. Hollywood so it's a
little bit of that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Path tell me about the. Book about the new book coming.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
Out it's the only family authorized biography On Bai, lugosi
and it's actually a new. Edition the original book was
published in nineteen seventy, six so it's same. Author we've
been friends with him for over fifty, years and it's
just a beautiful. Book it's the definitive biography On Bai

(01:10:50):
lugosi with over eleven hundred. Photographs and you, know it's
been a journey for me Because i've learned so much
more about my grandfather from the author who interviewed my,
grandmother who is married To baila for over twenty, years
and his family and friends and co workers at the

(01:11:10):
time that he got the interviews that were unique to this.
Book so it's a true insight into the man behind the,
cape AND i think readers will find it an interesting
story as his life wove through significant times in history
and how he dealt with, those as well as the career.

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
BEFORE i let you, go what do you all? Think
i'm curious about this BECAUSE i see it Every. Halloween
what do you think when you see children or, adults
more often than, not dressed As dracula and the Wolf,
man and not Any dracula and the Wolf, man but
as really your.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Grandparents what do you? Think i'll start with.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
You that's one of the most fun things Around halloween
or even you, know anytime when people always SAY i
dressed up As dracula WHEN i was a, kid and
always say send me the pig SHOULD i want to see.
It so that this great collection of people that are
still fans today showing me at what they dressed up
As saloween's Little. Draculusa that's really. Fun.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
Ron what do you think when you see those snarley
wolves people?

Speaker 4 (01:12:15):
RUNNING i love, it you, KNOW I And i've Got
phantom of The operas And wolfman's rounding. Around that's, right
you got a too For it's it's it's you, KNOW
i always Loved halloween as a. KID i always love
to dress, up not even thinking about my family do
AND i just enjoy doing. It BUT i still embrace,
it and just to see kids do, IT i.

Speaker 5 (01:12:37):
Think warms my.

Speaker 4 (01:12:37):
Heart IS i THINK i put my own son in
a few of the costumes the few times as he
was growing.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Up my, Daughters, WELL i thank you both for helping
us humanize these movie monsters that we grew up with
and the men behind, them both the hardship and the
and the example they left. Us and thank you all
for trying to preserve that cultural like it is so.

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
Important thank you so much for giving us this. Opportunity
it is a rare opportunity, actually and we really appreciate.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
It it's an, Honor it's An raymond.

Speaker 4 (01:13:11):
UH i, Know, lynn like myself appreciate the ability to
kind of sometimes get our story out there from another
view because often people, say, oh you're just doing this or,
that and you're going to, know, man it's really it's
a lot of, work and it's hard.

Speaker 5 (01:13:25):
Work it is.

Speaker 4 (01:13:27):
Going BUT i See lynn BECAUSE i used to work
with her dad more Than, lynn And i've seen her just,
blossoming grow and just become this expert on her on her,
grandfather and it's it's wonderful to see BECAUSE i KNOW
i had to learn. IT i think neither one of
us grew up around. It per se knew more than we.

(01:13:50):
Did but once we embrace, it go, WELL i can humanize,
it like you, said or personalize it BECAUSE i know the.
Man you guys know the, movies, WELL i need to
now know the movies in the career SO i can
combine it to in form a better opinion of who
they were WHEN i start to write about.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
It, yeah beautiful, now and writing teaches. You you know
that exercise teaches you a lot about, yourself about the.
People you learn things and encounter things you never. Expected
So i'm glad you both did that. Journey there is
a fantastic pictorial biography Of Bela lagosi Called Bela Lugosi
The Man behind The. Cape it's worth checking. Out it's

(01:14:27):
available for pre order now At clover Press. Us And
Ron cheney has a new book out CALLED A century
Of cheney's it'll be out later this. Year started by his,
grandfather by the, way and he completed.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
It scare that one up.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
TOO i hope you'll come back to A Royo grande.
Soon why live a, dry constricted life when if you
fill it with good, things it can flow into a
broad driving A Royo.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
Grande i'm Ram An.

Speaker 2 (01:14:54):
Arroyo make sure you, subscribe like this episode and comment. Below,
thanks thank for diving, In Happy, halloween and we'll see
you next. Time Arroyo grande is produced in partnership WITH
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