May 19, 2022 • 30 mins
Jenifer speaks with Hope, a woman that Spencer had a multiyear long affair with during her marriage to Spencer. Jen finds her anger has now turned into compassion as she learns the circumstances under which Hope became involved with Spencer. The former mistress divulges stunning details about Spencer’s physical aggression and emotional manipulation. Hope reveals the guilt and shame she has carried for years since Spencer’s arrest.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast contains discussions of sexual activity that may be
disturbing for some listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Please take care while listening.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
I know a lot of people with Saint Poe. You're
just upset that you got caught and no act truly
feel like a disgusting person. But knowing better, I allowed
myself to get wrapped up in that, and that I
didn't stop it.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I should have.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
I'm Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode five Absolution.
After Jennifer met with the sexual assault victim, she was
ready to take on the next step finding out more
about the other relationships Spencer had during their marriage. From
(00:54):
the very beginning, we talked about you potentially sitting down
with the other women.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Why do you want to take that on?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
When I first found out about these other women, I
was enraged. I mean I was calling them every name
in the book. A few of these women I know.
Fast forward three years later, and I've learned so much
(01:24):
about Spence. You know, the last time I reached out
to some of these women was days after Spence went
to jail, and I found out I was not very
nice at the time. I remember one woman, she has
two teenage daughters, and I told her, I hope you
(01:44):
raise your daughters better than this.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
You were angry, very angry, very angry.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I still didn't realize who he was. He was another
person with these women. I'm just trying to pull all
the pieces together, kind of get all of the questions
I still want answered answered so that I can put
(02:13):
all of this past me.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
While serving in the Air National Guard, Spencer had a
long time affair with one of his bandmates. To protect
her privacy, recalling her Hope it's not her real name.
Jennifer emailed Hope but didn't hear anything back from her,
so our producer Carrie reached out and a dialogue began.
Hope was terrified, but also wanted to be helpful. There
(02:37):
was so much she wanted to say, but the idea
of reliving any of this was almost.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Unbearable for her.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Jennifer and Hope agreed to talk, but minutes before the
agreed upon time, Hope texted that she felt sick. It
was emotionally too much. Call almost didn't happen, but she
mustered up the courage.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
What did you think when you got my email?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I mean, I was really surprised since it had been
so long since we had last been in contact, and
then I just kind of felt the wave of emotions
come over me again, you know the same, the guilt,
the fear. When this first all happened, I just felt
like I was completely exposed as a terrible person and
(03:33):
felt like my world was literally crashing down around me.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What year did you guys start in the Air Force together?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Twenty fifteen or sixteenth, somewhere around that point.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
So I know this might be uncomfortable for you to
tell me, but how did he start this?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I believe it was with a text message. I remember
it being the fourth of July midnight parade in Gatlinburg,
and we were on the bus back to base and
I got this text message. I don't even remember what
the initial start of the conversation was, but then a
(04:16):
comment was made about well you're beautiful, something to that extent,
and that's kind of where it started. Here's an attractive
guy telling me I'm pretty That came out of nowhere,
because even at that point I don't even remember really
ever talking or having a conversation with him prior to that.
(04:40):
I mean, I knew that he was new in the
band and where he had come from. That kind of thing.
But from how I remember, it was like, Okay, well,
let's hang out and talk. And then the next thing
I know, it's happening so quickly that I was confused.
I was like, what is this? I thought we were
just hanging out talking, and then there we were, and
(05:02):
I remember feeling like, oh my god, what's happening. But
then at the same time, I didn't do anything to
stop it.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Did a majority of it happen when you guys were
away on those weekends in Knoxville.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yes, there was no consistency to it, but yeah, the
majority of it was on those weekends.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Oh sorry, this is you know. I just have to
take a deep breath every once in a while. How
were you able to keep it a secret from everyone
or was it not a secret.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I don't know of anybody at the time that knew,
at least from my end of things. I mean I
confided in my closest girlfriend in the unit afterwards, and
if she knew, she didn't let on like she knew.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Did you still date other people or were you guys
kind of exclusive?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
No, I would, I mean I didn't date a lot
during that period, but I mean just casual dating, nothing serious.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
For me, And was that because you guys, did you
have an agreement?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
No, no, no real agreement. There were what I thought
were joking comments, you know here and there, you know,
your mind kind of thing, but I didn't take that seriously.
But there was no direct you know, I don't want
you to see other people.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I mean, this went on for several years. How did
you view this relationship?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I guess just I felt. I see how I put
this because it's not very kind towards myself, but just
like I was being used whenever there was a need.
But I really thought that he loved me. He had
(07:00):
me convinced that he did. I mean, he he told
me so.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
If he was showing you that he loved you, why
did you still feel used?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I guess because there wasn't like a definitive thing that
we were, and two or three months would go by
and I wouldn't hear anything or you know, nothing like that,
and then all of a sudden, here we are again.
I guess maybe that's that's why I felt that way.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Do you feel like you loved him?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
I think I loved the way he made me feel
about myself more than him as a person. But at
that time in my life, I very much needed to
feel loved and wanted, you know, I think that's what
I held on to more than anything.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
When you look at it now, do you feel like
he manipulated you?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yeah, I said a lot about that this morning, thinking
about things and knowing my personality and at that time
in my life. You know, the deployment group, I guess
really sticks out in my mind because I wasn't nearly
as talented as any of the rest of them in
the group. The entire time I was in the group,
(08:27):
I was like, I don't have anything to offer, but
I felt like he made it a point to push
for me to be in the band. I don't really
know how I got a proof. I don't know the
channels that it went through. But even at the same time,
I knew like they're way more qualified people than me,
(08:51):
So I guess I felt like maybe that was the
only reason that I was in the group, and that
may me feel like I owed him something. Here I'm
having this awesome opportunity and I knew like I shouldn't
be going, But just thinking today that may have been
(09:12):
part of it. And then just you know, the innocent
comments or walking by and brush up against me kind
of thing, which you know, reading about grooming specifically, those
are some of the ways that it's done. And there
were a lot of instances like that, just randomly out
of nowhere kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And that's the kind of stuff I'm curious about, you know,
because I'm just starting to kind of learn about that
grooming process as well. Is that how it starts, just
like you know, the walking by and like tap you
on the shoulder or I don't know, I mean, is
that how he was?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yes? I mean a lot of times there were just
those I mean not completely blatant obvious things to realize,
you know, to notice, but probably to everyone else around
wouldn't be obvious.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I have to ask, and this is not easy for me,
but was his marriage ever talked about? Or was I
ever brought up?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I don't remember much conversation other than you know, like
where you were working at the time. I mean, I
knew that you traveled a lot, and then just bits
of conversation like when you guys opened the coffee shower,
but nothing super personal. I remember that there was never
(10:49):
any indication on his part that what we were doing
was wrong. I felt it. I knew it. I mentioned it.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
When you mentioned it. What was his response?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Just the reiteration of how he felt about me. I mean,
he really never openly talked about the marriage.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
I feel like if I was with someone over the
span of four years, I would be emotionally invested and
I would have questions for him about why he's doing this.
I mean, did he talk about like he was going
to get divorced?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Ever, I guess if you're asking if I felt like
he was ever gonna divorce to be with me, we
never discussed that. And again, I guess from relationships in
my past, I didn't feel like I was worth having
in any kind of long term because most of the
(11:50):
people in my life in relationships left me, and so
maybe I've never even considered or accepted that of him.
Your discussed a future with me, And I know that
makes me sound terrible, like you're you're a fool for
being what someone like this.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
No, I think he preyed on you and did make
you feel so good. That happens to a lot of people.
We get sucked in. I am in no way attacking you.
I have empathy for you. This still causing you pain
(12:33):
in your life.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Looking back, there was definitely more to it. Now.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
So when you would see me, was it uncomfortable?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
It was? I felt completely guilty and horrible. Yeah, it
felt weird. I didn't know how to act or how
to be.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
It was just also shocking, you know, first the student
and then somebody I knew. Obviously, you know that he
got convicted.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Do you remember how you found out about his arrest.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I do. I had pulled up in the parking lot
at work. It was in the evening, and a friend
from the band text and said, have you heard about Spencer.
I was like, no, what's going on? And they went
on to tell me, you know, well, he's been arrested.
I was completely shocked. It's like, surely that can't be.
(13:41):
But I know that there wouldn't be an arrest weren't
of that nature and that seriousness without there being some
truth to it. So I guess part of me knew, Okay, yeah,
I can see.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
This, you could.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I mean I guess based on some of the experiences
that I had, part of me could see that that
was probably true. There were things that were asked of
me that I was absolutely not comfortable with, and I
feel like I was forced to play a role that
(14:16):
was not me. There would be certain looks that just
made me feel different. In cunning words, I guess.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
You know, obviously he had a side to him that
I never knew anything about. Did you see a side
to him that you didn't expect?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, there was a very dominating side to him. Just
some of the physical quests they were foreign to me.
Looking back, I remember a couple of times where you know,
he would kind of put his hands around my throat
and push down. That kind of caught me off guard. Yeah,
(15:00):
you had a lot of fantasies that he wanted played
out different things at different times, and I don't really
want to be very specific, but there was a time
where you know, yeah, you know, I want you to
be this way when I come in. I just didn't
know anything about a lot of that, so I didn't
(15:22):
know how to be other than just comply.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
When you think about Spence, what do you think of
now or how do you see him now?
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I don't know. Part of me is angry at him
for dragging me through all of this. That's not to
say that I don't take full responsibility for my actions,
but years later, I still get very emotional about it.
And still have so much guilt and shame and next me,
(15:54):
mad Adam.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
You have every right to be mad at him.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I mean, there's a person in a band that he
has written letters to asking if I'm okay, Like, don't
ask about me, Like, just don't leave me out of it.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You obviously take responsibility for your decisions, but in a way,
and I hope you're not offended by this word, but
I almost see you as a victim. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I think so, I do.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Many years later. Why do you think you still feel
so bad about this?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I mean, I'm a Christian. I was raised to know
right or wrong, and I just feel like I let
so many people down. It's just my nature. I'm a
people pleaser to a fault, and I can't stand the
thought of somebody being disappointed in me, or to know
that I've hurt someone deeply. And I know at some
(16:55):
point in my life I have to forgive myself, but
it's just really hard.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Who do you feel like is disappointed in you? Still?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Obviously the commander of the unit here, I've taken this
pledge to put honesty, integrity into service before self, and
I failed at that.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
What is the shame. Where is that coming from? Is
it just having an affair and getting caught no?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
I you know, I know a lot of people would think, oh,
you're just upset that you got caught. No A truly
feel like a disgusting person, But knowing better, I allowed
myself to get wrapped up in that and that I
didn't stop it.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I should have. When you're around the band members, now,
what is that like for you?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I don't know who in the band knows who doesn't.
I assume that everyone does. But thankfully there's some genuinely
good people that realize people make mistake. I was surprised
at the people that chose to write and communicate and
that until you, nobody has reached out to me to
see how I'm doing with all of it.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
You know, I'm sorry no one's reached out to you.
I can't believe people in the unit have been writing
dispense after everything he's done.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Another thing I've never really fully understood was I got
the standoff ish vibes. But then I know that there
were some that were very proactive in defending him, and
I was outcast. How could these people go and defend
somebody who did this to a child.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Do you ever get angry about that? I do.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, It's just still unfair, you know, to have the
commander of the unit come into the band building dressed
in a suit, ready to go to headquarters to plead
a case for somebody to get an honorable discharge, and
to not even beat me or be able to really
look at me.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
That's a really shitty thing to do. You're going to
waltz in there and tell them what a great guy
this person is that's in prison for sexual assault of
a student six counts.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
And I think that's the first time I verbalized that
to anybody. How that has made me feel, especially specifically
with people in the unit.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Did you ever think that there might be other women?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
No? I that never crossed my mind, not to say
that I was something spectacular that he didn't want to
go anywhere else. But now I'm kind of curious, like,
how extensive is this or was I the only idiot
out there that fell for this?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Besides the high school student, there were many other women.
I don't know how that makes you feel. I don't
mean to hurt you.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
No, I don't think it as that. It's just I'm
not the only one that hurt you or that was
hurt most likely themselves.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Have you ever thought about writing him a letter?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
And no.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
I've been given his address, and every time that I
thought about it, I was like, no, I'm not ready.
Like I first of all, I don't want to give
him the satisfaction of me reaching out.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
To him, and then.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Like, what would I say? Maybe it would feel good
to write it and never send it, but yeah, I've
chosen not too. I wish I could forget the whole thing.
I was a person that I don't recognize. I don't
want to remember that person.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
This is not the worst thing that has ever happened
in the world, and if we cannot learn and crow
from the bumps of life, yes, a sad way to
look at it. You're getting married in two weeks. I
am you must be so excited.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I feel a lot better now that we've gotten through
all of this. I don't feel as afraid.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I guess good and.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
My fiance knows the situation. I think that's really amazing
that he can know me at my lowest points and
all of the the bad decisions and still find it
and it's hard to love me. So I feel very
undeserving of it, but I'm very thankful for it.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
You shouldn't we all deserve that. I mean, I think
about it too. Am I ever going to meet someone
that is okay with the fact that I was married
to this guy who got sent to prison? You know,
I just I don't want you living with this hanging
over your head in any way because it's over. You know,
(22:03):
it was like a different chapter, but you're about to
embark on a new chapter. Don't carry this in with it, okay.
I don't look at this situation like what a bitch.
I can't believe she had an affair. I look at
it as you were caught up in something that was
(22:30):
incredibly manipulative without knowing that somebody was being manipulative. Your
side of the story, I think is as important as mine.
If anybody's going to learn something from this. You know,
there's somebody else out there who feels shame about an
(22:51):
affair they had, you know I had.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I appreciate how comfortable you may may feel.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Remember this is not easy for me, but you made
me feel comfortable as well. And congratulations again.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Enjoy and be happy. Do you think you can.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I think I can now I feel more at peace
about it. I think at this point I can at
least try to forgive myself and move forward, beat myself
up over for the rest of my life, for a
part of my life that is no more well.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I Hope you know that I don't hold anger or
bitterness towards you.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, thankful for that.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
I wanted to regroup with you on something that Hope
said because I found it really heartbreaking. She mentioned that
she was being snubbed by people in the Air Force. Meanwhile,
there are people in the vand that are going and
speaking on Spence's behalf, and that just felt so.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Hypocritical.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So after talking with Hope, I feel for her. You know,
she still holds so much shame about what she did,
and so me talking to her, it was really nice
to hear her side of the story because I've read
a lot of correspondence between Hope and Spence, and that
(24:34):
relationship is exactly what I thought. It was him manipulating her,
telling her he loves her, and having her do things
she's not comfortable with, and you can just see it
then when I hear that everybody is snubbing her and
(24:56):
making her to feel like she's the bad guy here
and they go and they defend Spence. It made me
so mad. As soon as I got off the phone,
I called up one of the leaders that was in
this band. Great guy, you know, this is part of
our extended family. So I felt comfortable calling him. But
(25:19):
I confronted him and I was upset and said, I
heard that you guys all went in and spoke up
on Spence's behalf and tried to say nice things about him, all.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
In an efor for an honorable discharge.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah. Yeah, he was really honest about it, didn't get defensive,
and he heard me out and then he explained his side.
The band is like a family, for sure, and so
they look after one another. I didn't understand why they
were looking after Spence so much, though, but what he
(25:59):
told me was everything that they did is for the kids,
for Spence's family, so that they are not affected any
more than they already are.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
So like, if he has an honorable discharge, then he'll
still get a pension or something like that.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
I think it's a financial thing, you know, they get benefits,
insurance and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, there's nuance to this, right,
So when he explained it that way, I did understand
their reasoning, and I want, hope to know that that's
the reasoning too.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Maybe that'll help provide some context, and I hope that
they'll be a little bit nicer to her.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
I hope. So what struck me the.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Most from your conversation was her willingness to own it
all and be very self aware of where she was
in the time of her life when she got involved
with your ex husband. It's so stripped down and honest,
and I think a lot of people can relate to
decisions that you make when you're not your best self,
or you don't have the best faculties, like you know,
(27:07):
self worth, and that takes a tremendous amount of courage
and vulnerability to be honest.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
She was so brave and talking to me and doing this,
and I'm so glad she did, because yes, she made mistakes,
and she made some poor choices. There is another side though.
She was preyed upon, and I think people tend to
(27:34):
prey on people and manipulate people who are a little
more vulnerable and do need and crave that attention. Hopefully
anybody hearing her story will realize, you know, no way.
I'm worth more. I deserve better and will realize that
(27:56):
the behavior that some of these people are portraying, it's
not okay.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
You talked to the high school student, talk to Hope,
and I know that part of this whole process, You've
wanted to have a face to face with Spencer. Are
you ready to get that ball rolling?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah? I dread seeing Spence again, I really do, because
I've not seen him since the day he was arrested.
But this is about finding answers and having more clarity
and understanding about who he was and why he did this,
And so yeah, I have to sit down with him
(28:42):
and talk to him. He promised me he is totally
willing to talk with me and answer questions. You know,
there may be some he doesn't want to answer, but
he agreed, he said, totally willing to do this. So
what we're going to.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Try and do is set up like a formal one
on one at the prison.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Gosh, can you imagine walking into that prison. That is
going to be one of the scariest moments of my life.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
You know, it's one thing just to talk to him
from there, but it would be another to walk in
to this prison. That he's locked up in. Oh my gosh.
I can't wait to be done. I just want to
have one last conversation with him and then I can
just put this to bed. It's behind me. I don't
(29:41):
ever need to correspond with him again.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
And still to come this season, Jennifer confronts Spencer.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
The last time we talked, you felt as if you
were fine and cured, and it has gone away.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Hey, I still feel that way.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
With iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,
hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to
voice actors Todd Gans and Rocky Aalt. Sound editing and
mixing done by Matt Tavecio. Betrayal's theme was composed by
(30:45):
Oliver Bains Music Library provided by my Music. And for
more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
This podcast contains discussions of sexual activity that may be
disturbing for some listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Please take care while listening.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
I know a lot of people with Saint Poe. You're
just upset that you got caught and no act truly
feel like a disgusting person. But knowing better, I allowed
myself to get wrapped up in that, and that I
didn't stop it.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I should have.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
I'm Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode five Absolution.
After Jennifer met with the sexual assault victim, she was
ready to take on the next step finding out more
about the other relationships Spencer had during their marriage. From
(00:54):
the very beginning, we talked about you potentially sitting down
with the other women.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Why do you want to take that on?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
When I first found out about these other women, I
was enraged. I mean I was calling them every name
in the book. A few of these women I know.
Fast forward three years later, and I've learned so much
(01:24):
about Spence. You know, the last time I reached out
to some of these women was days after Spence went
to jail, and I found out I was not very
nice at the time. I remember one woman, she has
two teenage daughters, and I told her, I hope you
(01:44):
raise your daughters better than this.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
You were angry, very angry, very angry.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I still didn't realize who he was. He was another
person with these women. I'm just trying to pull all
the pieces together, kind of get all of the questions
I still want answered answered so that I can put
(02:13):
all of this past me.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
While serving in the Air National Guard, Spencer had a
long time affair with one of his bandmates. To protect
her privacy, recalling her Hope it's not her real name.
Jennifer emailed Hope but didn't hear anything back from her,
so our producer Carrie reached out and a dialogue began.
Hope was terrified, but also wanted to be helpful. There
(02:37):
was so much she wanted to say, but the idea
of reliving any of this was almost.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Unbearable for her.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Jennifer and Hope agreed to talk, but minutes before the
agreed upon time, Hope texted that she felt sick. It
was emotionally too much. Call almost didn't happen, but she
mustered up the courage.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
What did you think when you got my email?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I mean, I was really surprised since it had been
so long since we had last been in contact, and
then I just kind of felt the wave of emotions
come over me again, you know the same, the guilt,
the fear. When this first all happened, I just felt
like I was completely exposed as a terrible person and
(03:33):
felt like my world was literally crashing down around me.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
What year did you guys start in the Air Force together?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Twenty fifteen or sixteenth, somewhere around that point.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
So I know this might be uncomfortable for you to
tell me, but how did he start this?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I believe it was with a text message. I remember
it being the fourth of July midnight parade in Gatlinburg,
and we were on the bus back to base and
I got this text message. I don't even remember what
the initial start of the conversation was, but then a
(04:16):
comment was made about well you're beautiful, something to that extent,
and that's kind of where it started. Here's an attractive
guy telling me I'm pretty That came out of nowhere,
because even at that point I don't even remember really
ever talking or having a conversation with him prior to that.
(04:40):
I mean, I knew that he was new in the
band and where he had come from. That kind of thing.
But from how I remember, it was like, Okay, well,
let's hang out and talk. And then the next thing
I know, it's happening so quickly that I was confused.
I was like, what is this? I thought we were
just hanging out talking, and then there we were, and
(05:02):
I remember feeling like, oh my god, what's happening. But
then at the same time, I didn't do anything to
stop it.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Did a majority of it happen when you guys were
away on those weekends in Knoxville.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yes, there was no consistency to it, but yeah, the
majority of it was on those weekends.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Oh sorry, this is you know. I just have to
take a deep breath every once in a while. How
were you able to keep it a secret from everyone
or was it not a secret.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I don't know of anybody at the time that knew,
at least from my end of things. I mean I
confided in my closest girlfriend in the unit afterwards, and
if she knew, she didn't let on like she knew.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Did you still date other people or were you guys
kind of exclusive?
Speaker 3 (06:00):
No, I would, I mean I didn't date a lot
during that period, but I mean just casual dating, nothing serious.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
For me, And was that because you guys, did you
have an agreement?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
No, no, no real agreement. There were what I thought
were joking comments, you know here and there, you know,
your mind kind of thing, but I didn't take that seriously.
But there was no direct you know, I don't want
you to see other people.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
I mean, this went on for several years. How did
you view this relationship?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I guess just I felt. I see how I put
this because it's not very kind towards myself, but just
like I was being used whenever there was a need.
But I really thought that he loved me. He had
(07:00):
me convinced that he did. I mean, he he told
me so.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
If he was showing you that he loved you, why
did you still feel used?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
I guess because there wasn't like a definitive thing that
we were, and two or three months would go by
and I wouldn't hear anything or you know, nothing like that,
and then all of a sudden, here we are again.
I guess maybe that's that's why I felt that way.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Do you feel like you loved him?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
I think I loved the way he made me feel
about myself more than him as a person. But at
that time in my life, I very much needed to
feel loved and wanted, you know, I think that's what
I held on to more than anything.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
When you look at it now, do you feel like
he manipulated you?
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Yeah, I said a lot about that this morning, thinking
about things and knowing my personality and at that time
in my life. You know, the deployment group, I guess
really sticks out in my mind because I wasn't nearly
as talented as any of the rest of them in
the group. The entire time I was in the group,
(08:27):
I was like, I don't have anything to offer, but
I felt like he made it a point to push
for me to be in the band. I don't really
know how I got a proof. I don't know the
channels that it went through. But even at the same time,
I knew like they're way more qualified people than me,
(08:51):
So I guess I felt like maybe that was the
only reason that I was in the group, and that
may me feel like I owed him something. Here I'm
having this awesome opportunity and I knew like I shouldn't
be going, But just thinking today that may have been
(09:12):
part of it. And then just you know, the innocent
comments or walking by and brush up against me kind
of thing, which you know, reading about grooming specifically, those
are some of the ways that it's done. And there
were a lot of instances like that, just randomly out
of nowhere kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And that's the kind of stuff I'm curious about, you know,
because I'm just starting to kind of learn about that
grooming process as well. Is that how it starts, just
like you know, the walking by and like tap you
on the shoulder or I don't know, I mean, is
that how he was?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Yes? I mean a lot of times there were just
those I mean not completely blatant obvious things to realize,
you know, to notice, but probably to everyone else around
wouldn't be obvious.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I have to ask, and this is not easy for me,
but was his marriage ever talked about? Or was I
ever brought up?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I don't remember much conversation other than you know, like
where you were working at the time. I mean, I
knew that you traveled a lot, and then just bits
of conversation like when you guys opened the coffee shower,
but nothing super personal. I remember that there was never
(10:49):
any indication on his part that what we were doing
was wrong. I felt it. I knew it. I mentioned it.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
When you mentioned it. What was his response?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Just the reiteration of how he felt about me. I mean,
he really never openly talked about the marriage.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
I feel like if I was with someone over the
span of four years, I would be emotionally invested and
I would have questions for him about why he's doing this.
I mean, did he talk about like he was going
to get divorced?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Ever, I guess if you're asking if I felt like
he was ever gonna divorce to be with me, we
never discussed that. And again, I guess from relationships in
my past, I didn't feel like I was worth having
in any kind of long term because most of the
(11:50):
people in my life in relationships left me, and so
maybe I've never even considered or accepted that of him.
Your discussed a future with me, And I know that
makes me sound terrible, like you're you're a fool for
being what someone like this.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
No, I think he preyed on you and did make
you feel so good. That happens to a lot of people.
We get sucked in. I am in no way attacking you.
I have empathy for you. This still causing you pain
(12:33):
in your life.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Looking back, there was definitely more to it. Now.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
So when you would see me, was it uncomfortable?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
It was? I felt completely guilty and horrible. Yeah, it
felt weird. I didn't know how to act or how
to be.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
It was just also shocking, you know, first the student
and then somebody I knew. Obviously, you know that he
got convicted.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Do you remember how you found out about his arrest.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I do. I had pulled up in the parking lot
at work. It was in the evening, and a friend
from the band text and said, have you heard about Spencer.
I was like, no, what's going on? And they went
on to tell me, you know, well, he's been arrested.
I was completely shocked. It's like, surely that can't be.
(13:41):
But I know that there wouldn't be an arrest weren't
of that nature and that seriousness without there being some
truth to it. So I guess part of me knew, Okay, yeah,
I can see.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
This, you could.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I mean I guess based on some of the experiences
that I had, part of me could see that that
was probably true. There were things that were asked of
me that I was absolutely not comfortable with, and I
feel like I was forced to play a role that
(14:16):
was not me. There would be certain looks that just
made me feel different. In cunning words, I guess.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
You know, obviously he had a side to him that
I never knew anything about. Did you see a side
to him that you didn't expect?
Speaker 3 (14:36):
Yeah, there was a very dominating side to him. Just
some of the physical quests they were foreign to me.
Looking back, I remember a couple of times where you know,
he would kind of put his hands around my throat
and push down. That kind of caught me off guard. Yeah,
(15:00):
you had a lot of fantasies that he wanted played
out different things at different times, and I don't really
want to be very specific, but there was a time
where you know, yeah, you know, I want you to
be this way when I come in. I just didn't
know anything about a lot of that, so I didn't
(15:22):
know how to be other than just comply.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
When you think about Spence, what do you think of
now or how do you see him now?
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I don't know. Part of me is angry at him
for dragging me through all of this. That's not to
say that I don't take full responsibility for my actions,
but years later, I still get very emotional about it.
And still have so much guilt and shame and next me,
(15:54):
mad Adam.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
You have every right to be mad at him.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I mean, there's a person in a band that he
has written letters to asking if I'm okay, Like, don't
ask about me, Like, just don't leave me out of it.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You obviously take responsibility for your decisions, but in a way,
and I hope you're not offended by this word, but
I almost see you as a victim. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (16:23):
I think so, I do.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Many years later. Why do you think you still feel
so bad about this?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I mean, I'm a Christian. I was raised to know
right or wrong, and I just feel like I let
so many people down. It's just my nature. I'm a
people pleaser to a fault, and I can't stand the
thought of somebody being disappointed in me, or to know
that I've hurt someone deeply. And I know at some
(16:55):
point in my life I have to forgive myself, but
it's just really hard.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Who do you feel like is disappointed in you? Still?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Obviously the commander of the unit here, I've taken this
pledge to put honesty, integrity into service before self, and
I failed at that.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
What is the shame. Where is that coming from? Is
it just having an affair and getting caught no?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
I you know, I know a lot of people would think, oh,
you're just upset that you got caught. No A truly
feel like a disgusting person, But knowing better, I allowed
myself to get wrapped up in that and that I
didn't stop it.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I should have. When you're around the band members, now,
what is that like for you?
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I don't know who in the band knows who doesn't.
I assume that everyone does. But thankfully there's some genuinely
good people that realize people make mistake. I was surprised
at the people that chose to write and communicate and
that until you, nobody has reached out to me to
see how I'm doing with all of it.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
You know, I'm sorry no one's reached out to you.
I can't believe people in the unit have been writing
dispense after everything he's done.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Another thing I've never really fully understood was I got
the standoff ish vibes. But then I know that there
were some that were very proactive in defending him, and
I was outcast. How could these people go and defend
somebody who did this to a child.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Do you ever get angry about that? I do.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, It's just still unfair, you know, to have the
commander of the unit come into the band building dressed
in a suit, ready to go to headquarters to plead
a case for somebody to get an honorable discharge, and
to not even beat me or be able to really
look at me.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
That's a really shitty thing to do. You're going to
waltz in there and tell them what a great guy
this person is that's in prison for sexual assault of
a student six counts.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
And I think that's the first time I verbalized that
to anybody. How that has made me feel, especially specifically
with people in the unit.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Did you ever think that there might be other women?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
No? I that never crossed my mind, not to say
that I was something spectacular that he didn't want to
go anywhere else. But now I'm kind of curious, like,
how extensive is this or was I the only idiot
out there that fell for this?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Besides the high school student, there were many other women.
I don't know how that makes you feel. I don't
mean to hurt you.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
No, I don't think it as that. It's just I'm
not the only one that hurt you or that was
hurt most likely themselves.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Have you ever thought about writing him a letter?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
And no.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
I've been given his address, and every time that I
thought about it, I was like, no, I'm not ready.
Like I first of all, I don't want to give
him the satisfaction of me reaching out.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
To him, and then.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Like, what would I say? Maybe it would feel good
to write it and never send it, but yeah, I've
chosen not too. I wish I could forget the whole thing.
I was a person that I don't recognize. I don't
want to remember that person.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
This is not the worst thing that has ever happened
in the world, and if we cannot learn and crow
from the bumps of life, yes, a sad way to
look at it. You're getting married in two weeks. I
am you must be so excited.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
I feel a lot better now that we've gotten through
all of this. I don't feel as afraid.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I guess good and.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
My fiance knows the situation. I think that's really amazing
that he can know me at my lowest points and
all of the the bad decisions and still find it
and it's hard to love me. So I feel very
undeserving of it, but I'm very thankful for it.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
You shouldn't we all deserve that. I mean, I think
about it too. Am I ever going to meet someone
that is okay with the fact that I was married
to this guy who got sent to prison? You know,
I just I don't want you living with this hanging
over your head in any way because it's over. You know,
(22:03):
it was like a different chapter, but you're about to
embark on a new chapter. Don't carry this in with it, okay.
I don't look at this situation like what a bitch.
I can't believe she had an affair. I look at
it as you were caught up in something that was
(22:30):
incredibly manipulative without knowing that somebody was being manipulative. Your
side of the story, I think is as important as mine.
If anybody's going to learn something from this. You know,
there's somebody else out there who feels shame about an
(22:51):
affair they had, you know I had.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
I appreciate how comfortable you may may feel.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Remember this is not easy for me, but you made
me feel comfortable as well. And congratulations again.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Enjoy and be happy. Do you think you can.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I think I can now I feel more at peace
about it. I think at this point I can at
least try to forgive myself and move forward, beat myself
up over for the rest of my life, for a
part of my life that is no more well.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I Hope you know that I don't hold anger or
bitterness towards you.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, thankful for that.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
I wanted to regroup with you on something that Hope
said because I found it really heartbreaking. She mentioned that
she was being snubbed by people in the Air Force. Meanwhile,
there are people in the vand that are going and
speaking on Spence's behalf, and that just felt so.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
Hypocritical.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
So after talking with Hope, I feel for her. You know,
she still holds so much shame about what she did,
and so me talking to her, it was really nice
to hear her side of the story because I've read
a lot of correspondence between Hope and Spence, and that
(24:34):
relationship is exactly what I thought. It was him manipulating her,
telling her he loves her, and having her do things
she's not comfortable with, and you can just see it
then when I hear that everybody is snubbing her and
(24:56):
making her to feel like she's the bad guy here
and they go and they defend Spence. It made me
so mad. As soon as I got off the phone,
I called up one of the leaders that was in
this band. Great guy, you know, this is part of
our extended family. So I felt comfortable calling him. But
(25:19):
I confronted him and I was upset and said, I
heard that you guys all went in and spoke up
on Spence's behalf and tried to say nice things about him, all.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
In an efor for an honorable discharge.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah. Yeah, he was really honest about it, didn't get defensive,
and he heard me out and then he explained his side.
The band is like a family, for sure, and so
they look after one another. I didn't understand why they
were looking after Spence so much, though, but what he
(25:59):
told me was everything that they did is for the kids,
for Spence's family, so that they are not affected any
more than they already are.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
So like, if he has an honorable discharge, then he'll
still get a pension or something like that.
Speaker 5 (26:18):
I think it's a financial thing, you know, they get benefits,
insurance and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, there's nuance to this, right,
So when he explained it that way, I did understand
their reasoning, and I want, hope to know that that's
the reasoning too.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Maybe that'll help provide some context, and I hope that
they'll be a little bit nicer to her.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
I hope. So what struck me the.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
Most from your conversation was her willingness to own it
all and be very self aware of where she was
in the time of her life when she got involved
with your ex husband. It's so stripped down and honest,
and I think a lot of people can relate to
decisions that you make when you're not your best self,
or you don't have the best faculties, like you know,
(27:07):
self worth, and that takes a tremendous amount of courage
and vulnerability to be honest.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
She was so brave and talking to me and doing this,
and I'm so glad she did, because yes, she made mistakes,
and she made some poor choices. There is another side though.
She was preyed upon, and I think people tend to
(27:34):
prey on people and manipulate people who are a little
more vulnerable and do need and crave that attention. Hopefully
anybody hearing her story will realize, you know, no way.
I'm worth more. I deserve better and will realize that
(27:56):
the behavior that some of these people are portraying, it's
not okay.
Speaker 4 (28:02):
You talked to the high school student, talk to Hope,
and I know that part of this whole process, You've
wanted to have a face to face with Spencer. Are
you ready to get that ball rolling?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah? I dread seeing Spence again, I really do, because
I've not seen him since the day he was arrested.
But this is about finding answers and having more clarity
and understanding about who he was and why he did this,
And so yeah, I have to sit down with him
(28:42):
and talk to him. He promised me he is totally
willing to talk with me and answer questions. You know,
there may be some he doesn't want to answer, but
he agreed, he said, totally willing to do this. So
what we're going to.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Try and do is set up like a formal one
on one at the prison.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Gosh, can you imagine walking into that prison. That is
going to be one of the scariest moments of my life.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
You know, it's one thing just to talk to him
from there, but it would be another to walk in
to this prison. That he's locked up in. Oh my gosh.
I can't wait to be done. I just want to
have one last conversation with him and then I can
just put this to bed. It's behind me. I don't
(29:41):
ever need to correspond with him again.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
And still to come this season, Jennifer confronts Spencer.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
The last time we talked, you felt as if you
were fine and cured, and it has gone away.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Hey, I still feel that way.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
With iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,
hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to
voice actors Todd Gans and Rocky Aalt. Sound editing and
mixing done by Matt Tavecio. Betrayal's theme was composed by
(30:45):
Oliver Bains Music Library provided by my Music. And for
more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Andrea Gunning
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