May 5, 2022 • 35 mins
Jenifer’s first conversation is with the victim of her ex-husband's most egregious acts. The teenage student that was sexually abused by Spencer Herron who was her teacher at the time. She is now a 21-year-old college student. She speaks about that experience publicly for the first time ever with Jenifer, his ex-wife. It’s a powerful exchange between the two women who never expected to meet one another. The victim’s account draws a roadmap of how a predator operates when a trusted adult targets a young person. Jenifer is devastated at the depravity of Spencer’s behavior. Both women find healing in sharing with each other and the community.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I think we have to make sure people are supported
when they come forward. Lots of times people want to
come forward, but they're scared this person has groomed them.
You know, I'm the teacher. I do this, I got
this award. You know, I've been here for so long.
These people know me, so it's very hard for people
(00:27):
to come forward to begin with. Then the lawyers on
the defense side, they're going to ostracize them big time.
They're going to call them a slept they're going to
call them a whod They're going to call them everything
under the book to embarrass them, and then that keeps
other people from coming forward. We really have to do
a better job.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
That was Cobb County District Attorney Flynn Brody Jr. I'm
Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode three, breaking her silence.
(01:12):
After Spence was put behind bars, he would often write Jennifer.
Here's an excerpt from a letter he sent after a
meeting with his attorney, Brian Hobbs. It offers insight on
how he viewed his relationship with the sexual assault victim.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Most of what she told the police was fairly accurate,
but her descriptions were sometimes way off. Brian says there
is great danger in putting much back on her because
it will take away my position of being remorseful, taking
responsibility for my actions, and admitting wrongdoing. My question to
Brian was, how do we lessen her half truths to
(01:48):
not make me look like such a monster or the
only instigator. Clearly I wasn't. But we've come back around
to the quote doesn't matter issue.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
My producing partner, Carrie Hartman, started emailing and calling women
that Spencer had pursued while he was married to Jennifer.
Many refused to even acknowledge us, but others wanted to talk.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Hey Dre, Hey Jen.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
So I'm glad we're connecting this morning because I do
have some news for you.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
So we did reach out to the sexual assault victim's attorney,
her civil attorney really, yeah, and the victim she actually
filed a case in twenty nineteen against three school administrators.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
Actually, Carrie is the one who spoke to him directly. Carrie,
do you want to fill us in?
Speaker 6 (02:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (02:41):
So the attorney's name is Mike Rafie. He's in Atlanta. Actually,
we ended up talking for almost an hour.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Oh okay, So I don't.
Speaker 7 (02:52):
Know if you're aware exactly when the assault started. But
she was fifteen and she was a sophomore at school.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (02:59):
Now she's a twenty one year old college student. She's
a young woman, she has agency. Yeah, she wants an
opportunity to.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Tell her story.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Okay, but before going on.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
The record, she would like to have a private.
Speaker 7 (03:14):
Moment with you, one on one.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
She wants to meet in person.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I have not wanted to ever bother her in any
way because she's the victim in all of this.
Speaker 7 (03:35):
You both are.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
You both are listen. If she's willing that, that's huge,
that's everything. Yeah, I mean, I'm scared shitless, but I'm
searching for all the missing puzzle pieces to figure out
who this person is that I married. And you know,
(03:57):
in turn.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
If.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
It helps her in some way, I'll do whatever I can.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Jennifer was scared shitless. We talked to her right before.
They're one on one. Two very rave women who never
expected to meet just sat in a restaurant and listened
to each other, and then it went on the record.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Thank you very very much for doing this, and for
talking to me and for trusting me, and for sharing
your story because I think it's really really important. I'm shaking.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
We have met once in person. What was that a
week ago?
Speaker 6 (04:47):
Yeah? It was.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
I told you then that I'm just really sorry that
this happened. Why did you agree to talk with me?
Speaker 6 (04:56):
Well, I wanted to talk to you first in person
because I thought and I still think, it helped me,
and I hope it helped you with the healing process,
because us meeting is a sign of empowerment and it's
a chance for us to start moving forward in a
healthy way. This is also a chance for me to,
(05:19):
in a way, to defend myself to the public eye
with my own words. It's one thing to go through
the courts and have an attorney talk for you, but
it's also another to step out and speak for yourself.
So I'm just grateful that we're here now.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
It was important that I see you for who you
were back then, which was a young girl. What were
you like in high school?
Speaker 6 (05:49):
Oh? Okay, in high school, I was pretty shy. I
didn't have a lot of friends. I knew people, but
I never actually took the time to hang out with people.
So I was kind of lonely as a kid before
everything with Haron. I had one boyfriend. It was someone
(06:14):
I went to the dance with. You know, when you're
a kid and you just you like someone and you
hold their hand. It was very innocent. I do look
back on that because sometimes I missed that innocence.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
I'm glad that you had that.
Speaker 6 (06:30):
That was a nice memory to look back on.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Do you remember when you first met Spence when he
first became your teacher.
Speaker 8 (06:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (06:41):
I took the video production class, I believe my sophomore
year and that was level one, and so I was
just basically starting out with video production. I knew nothing
about it, so that's how I met him. We mostly
got to know each other during times of the Drone
Club when he first gave out his number to the
(07:01):
club members. It was mostly about shooting videos with the
drone or editing, and then he would write me more
about just music or sometimes movies.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
What was he like as a teacher when you first started.
Speaker 6 (07:19):
With him, Very energetic, just very nice to be around.
At first. It was fun that class. I had a
lot to look forward to with learning about equipment and editing,
and he seemed very excited about his curriculum and motivated
to teach his students. You know, when you take classes
(07:40):
that are not academic in high school, it's a relief
because it gives you a chance to be creative. And
it was also that trust that you had in someone
who was also so motivated to be a mentor in
his students' lives. So I saw him at first as
someone I can trust. You know, if I ever felt
(08:02):
like I needed to, you know, talk to him about school,
I felt safe at first to do that.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Of course, you're going to trust that person. Yes, yeah,
And I think that might be what some people don't
understand about this is there's a grooming process. Do you
feel like that might have been your situation.
Speaker 6 (08:25):
I think the students in general, those who were not
sexual abuse victims were, I want to stay groomed in
a way where he made sure that no one saw
him in that way. But me, as a sexual abuse victim,
I was groomed in a way where that trust was
(08:47):
implemented to violate boundaries over and over again.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
The reason my ex husband's in prison is because you
were brave enough to come forward and report something, and
so many times it doesn't get reported.
Speaker 6 (09:07):
Yeah, it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Unfortunately, when do you feel like that first boundary was
really crossed?
Speaker 6 (09:14):
We were talking about shooting this video or like short
movie with the club, and he had texted me that
he had feelings for me. I remember feeling I don't know,
I guess shocked. It's an understatement. I just felt so. Yeah,
I guess shocked is the word. That was the Yeah,
(09:38):
that was the first time at least when the boundary
was crossed. And he told me that he wanted to
talk about it in person, and I agreed to because
I thought maybe we could talk about it and that
would be that. When I met him at school, classes
were about to end around three. They didn't quite and yet,
(10:01):
so school hadn't ended yet. But he brought me back
to the control room and that's when he kissed me.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
How did you respond.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
It's kind of a blur. I'll be honest. It didn't
feel right. I guess I was just confused in a way,
and I think maybe I could have just had a
say in it. I don't know, like I felt like
it was wrong in my heart, but when he kissed me,
he would reassure me and say, well, you know, it's
(10:31):
because I love you. This is why you know, this
is why this is okay, because we're meant to be together.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
At the time, was it a shock or what went
through your mind?
Speaker 6 (10:50):
It was a shock. What I remember feeling most was
really confused. I think I was more confused with a
grown adult telling me that they had these feelings for
me that you see in movies, you know when someone
confesses their feelings, and as a kid, it's shocking when
(11:12):
someone tells you at the time that they love you
and they have these feelings for you that they don't
want to hide, and that you're special. It was a shock.
I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt
this way before with anyone, and that I was special
(11:33):
to him. That's how he made me feel. He made
me feel special and I could I could trust him
if I ever needed to talk to him about anything
or anything personal.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Sorry, this part is hard for me, but this is
what this journey is about. It's not easy, but getting
the clarity and the answers and filling in those blanks
that you don't know about help so much. And just
bear with me and I can hear it. I told
(12:11):
you this when we met. I do not judge you.
I do not hold you responsible. I am not mad
at you, none of those things. You know, how could
I be. You were the biggest victim in all of this,
and I know that, and I understand that. So it
(12:31):
sounds like there was some kind of I hate calling
it a relationship, but some kind of relationship established where
you guys talked more than just school stuff. If he
was developing these feelings for you.
Speaker 6 (12:48):
I hate calling it a relationship too. And I was
really thinking about this because I was recently in court
and the school said that this was a relationship, basically
placing the blame on me, that I was instigating this.
(13:08):
I understand what you mean when you say it. You know,
it's different from when you say it versus when someone's
placing the blame on a fifteen year old kid. But
he established with everyone a talking basis, if that makes sense,
Like he would give out his phone number to everyone,
and I think that was as a cover in a
(13:30):
way to make it look like it was normal for
him to talk to anyone over the phone.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
As far as you know, is that normal for a
teacher to give out their cell phone number?
Speaker 6 (13:40):
At the time, I thought it was normal But then
there was another teacher at CAL and I wasn't in
that club, but I overheard students and this teacher speaking
and they asked, well, you know, it'd be easier if
we just have each other's numbers, and I remember him
strictly saying no, no, no, no no. You know that
(14:00):
I will never do that. And that's when it kind
of clicked for me that this wasn't normal.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
So how did he justify doing this with a student?
Speaker 6 (14:12):
The first thing he said to me was, I've never
done this with a student. I've never felt this way
about anyone. The constant violations of boundaries, you know, had
the excuse of, well, this is what boyfriends and girlfriends do.
It's because I love you that we're doing this. And
(14:33):
he used my faith against me. You know, it's really
a true form of manipulation.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
How did he use your faith against you?
Speaker 6 (14:42):
He would say that God brought us together, that we
were meant to be, that it was all a part
of a cosmic plan, and you know, as a fifteen
year old, I felt really special to him.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Did you ever talk about if it was wrong or not?
Maybe not even teacher student, but the age difference or
him being married.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
I didn't think about him being married. I just thought
of him as, oh, it's coach hearing, because I only
saw him for the club and you know, for school,
and it was always just co charing to me, So
like his personal life, I didn't even really think of it.
You know. I expressed to him that I was a
(15:32):
virgin and I don't know if I was ready for anything,
And you know, it was always the same excuse. He
would tell me that it would be okay, that he
wouldn't hurt me, and that he loved me. That was
really the main excuse that he gave me because I
was hesitant in law as a kid, especially with the sex.
(15:53):
I wasn't ready at fifteen, I didn't really even think
about sex. And then when it was happening with him,
I didn't want to think about sex because I felt
ashamed in a way. He trained me to be a
woman and I was still a kid, so I was
really confused. I just remember being really confused as a kid.
(16:16):
The only times I do remember vividly are the ones
that were forced, because they're so vivid. I always felt
like I had to do things I just didn't want
to do. But at that time, my feelings for him
were already growing, and he would just reassure me that
it was okay because he loved me. Even when there
(16:39):
were times when he forced himself on me, he'd say,
you know, I'm so sorry. You know I love you.
I'm so sorry. You know this will never happen again.
And I believed him.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Oh my god, Yeah, I didn't know that person, and
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
I know.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Why do you think he shows you to go after
and pray on?
Speaker 6 (17:06):
I think he went after me because it was very obvious.
I was insecure. You know, I didn't have a lot
of friends, and I was sheltered. I didn't have anyone
to talk to. And I think he knew I was
a pretty really kid, and so he used that trust
that I had in him.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
I've done a lot of research. I'm sure you have
as well. It's textbook grooming and predator behavior.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
It is.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
And I didn't see it, and I know some people
probably don't believe that, like there must have been signs.
I can tell you if there was any hint or sign,
I would have spoken up and done something about it.
How do you think he got away with all of this?
Speaker 6 (17:57):
I don't think he just woke up one day decided
to do this. He was very calculated with how he
was with everyone, all the students he talked to, especially
the ones in drunk club. He was just very calculated
with every interaction he had with everyone. He put on
the face that needed to surface at that time with
(18:18):
that person, no matter if it was you or his kids.
For me, he was that person that he needed to
be at that time.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yeah, I lived on the same roof with this person,
and I am embarrassed.
Speaker 6 (18:34):
You shouldn't be. You didn't know.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
I know, but you know, if you understand shame.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
I do. I do, you shouldn't feel a shamed Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Did he ask you to keep it a secret?
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Yeah, he specifically told me. He said, change my name
on your phone to just one of your friends. And
I had a really hard time with that. But I
listened to him and he would say, no one could
know about this or else, you know, he could be
with me. And that was the hardest part for me
because I was close with my parents and I'm so
(19:09):
close with them. It was just, you know, heavy forms
of manipulation, saying I love you, that we have to
preserve what we had, is what he'd say, and that's
how high school was. After sophomore year, I was just
completely confused, and I just felt the whole time angry
(19:30):
and so insecure, and I just remember walking through the hallway.
I wanted to scream it or just say it to someone,
and then I thought, who could I tell this to?
Who wouldn't judge me, you know, because I was so
scared that I would be judged by whoever I told.
I remember thinking I wish Heron wasn't Heron at that time,
(19:50):
because I trusted him so much. I felt like he
was that person I could go to for anything, and
I felt so sad that I couldn't go to him
to talk about how this was happening to me from him,
If that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, because I felt the same way. You know, here
my husband gets arrested right in front of me, and
that's my best friend, you know. Yeah, that's the person
that makes me feel safest in the world, and they
can't even be there for me because the damage was
(20:26):
done by him.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Did he talk about plans for the future.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
He did. He would talk about that often, you know,
he'd say, I really want to continue this when you
graduate and go to college and he'd say, I see
you as my confidant, my best friend. He'd say stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Did I ever come up? Did he ever talk about
his wife leaving me?
Speaker 6 (20:55):
So he didn't bring you up on his own. I
brought you up because I remember seeing this picture of
you and him behind his desk and I didn't know
who that was. He said, oh, that's my wife, and
I said, oh, okay. I think he could tell that
I was shocked, and I was starting to feel really
uneasy about it. I remember feeling really sick to my
(21:18):
stomach about it. He told me that you two were
planning on getting a divorce, and how his friends were
on board with the divorce, and that I shouldn't feel
bad about it at all.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Wow, that was so crazy.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
Looking back, I don't know how someone could live with
so many lies and grew to sleep at night knowing
that you've manipulated everyone in your life.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
From the moment he woke up until the moment he
fell asleep. Did you realize at the time that what
he was doing is illegal?
Speaker 6 (22:07):
I wasn't sure about the laws when I was a kid.
I didn't really think about it. He just made sure
in my head keep what we have, you know, keep
this safe, because this is special. That's all I ever
thought about. I never thought about it being illegal up until,
you know, when I told my parents.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
So talk to me about why you decided to tell
your parents.
Speaker 6 (22:33):
I planned on not telling them at all. I thought
I'd take this to the grave. I didn't want to
tell anyone. I had this health class and she was
talking about STDs and I never thought about that when
I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. I never thought about that
(22:53):
until I took that class. And I remember her doing
this demonstration. Everyone was lining up in the classroom and
it was something really simple, like just people like touching
each other's shoulders in class, was showing like how it
could spread so easily. I don't know, it just kind
of it just clicked. I guess. I just remember being
scared that maybe I had caught something. You know. I
(23:16):
put all the stories he told me together. He was
boasting about this one interaction he had with two women,
and it just like all these things kind of popped
in my head at that time, and I got and
it just scared me.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
What was that story he had.
Speaker 6 (23:33):
Told me that he had a three way with two women.
He would tell me things.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Telling your parents that had to have been so hard.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
You know, when I did tell them, I felt like
I immediately regretted it.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Regretted.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
I felt responsible for what my parents went through. The
I unloaded this huge burden onto them. That's why I
felt like I regretted that for a while. I never
regretted going to the police, but I just regretted telling
my parents. In my case, the police were really helpful
(24:09):
and they did such an amazing job with the whole thing.
They never made me feel any type of shame.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Was there any relief when you did tell your parents?
Speaker 6 (24:22):
Yes, I did feel relief when I told my parents,
although you know the healing process, you and I both
know it's not a straightforward shot. Sometimes you relapse and
you go back and forth, and sometimes, like at first,
I sometimes regretted it just because of all the pain
that it brought up. I felt like I dragged them
(24:44):
into something that I didn't even plan on telling anyone
at all.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Gosh, it's so interesting that you say burden, that you
put this huge burden on them, because you know I
did that too, with my family and friends, with my
whole community. I mean, we all had to deal with it. Yeah,
my problem was their problem. Yeah, after you reported it
(25:09):
to the police, did they tell you what the next
step was going to be? Did you know what would
happen after that?
Speaker 6 (25:16):
I wasn't even thinking about the next step at the time.
I mean, I'm pretty sure that they let me know that,
you know, certain court hearings would happen, But other than that,
I was just processing this whole thing and trying to
sit with my parents through it.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Did you know that he would be arrested?
Speaker 6 (25:33):
I did? Yeah. By that time, you know, I realized
that what I was going through wasn't right, you know,
me feeling depressed and just completely devastated all the time.
I had an inkling that this was legally wrong.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
It must have been hard to share the intimate details
that you had to share with them.
Speaker 6 (25:54):
It was that the police didn't make me feel humiliated.
You know, they were very understanding.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
As you you know, retold the story to the police.
Did you realize then how wrong? Like did the pieces
all start kind of coming together it?
Speaker 6 (26:14):
Did? You know? Just as I got older, and what
really happened for me was when he was deployed and
he was just gone, that I could see things more clearly,
and you know that last time, you know, senior year,
when he was gone, I felt relief that I could
kind of start opening up to being more me, not
(26:37):
just hiding myself away, and I could start to also
see things more clearly. And I realized how good I
felt when he was gone versus when I was always
under his watch, you know, if he had that power
over me. So when he was gone, I could actually
relive and breathe, you know, and through that I got
(26:59):
a lot of clarity. It just clicked.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
That makes so much sense. He was deployed January twenty eighteen.
He came back from deployment two weeks before graduation. Yeah,
what about all the comments I know on social media,
people commented on the news stories, people commented a lot
(27:22):
of people, a lot of students, a lot of former students.
Pretty much anybody I talked to didn't believe it and
were shocked. Said he would be the last person that
would ever do something like this.
Speaker 6 (27:37):
I mean I didn't think this then, but I know
this now. It's always the people that you least expect,
you know. That's what I've read, you know, with research
at that time, when people were saying that I had
made it up, or that a student was maybe making
it up. I wasn't necessarily angry, because it can happen
(27:59):
that people make these things up. But I knew that
I was standing in my truth because there was evidence.
You know, they would see it, you know, as soon
as he got convicted. So I wasn't necessarily angry.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
If you hadn't spoken up, what do you think would
have happened.
Speaker 6 (28:20):
I think there would have been another victim.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Thank god. I mean, you saved my life, and you
were brave enough to do that. And I know it
kind of sounds dramatic, but literally, you saved my life.
I mean I was put in a really dangerous position.
He was also doing this to grown women.
Speaker 6 (28:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that are
silently thanking you. You know, a grown woman is saying
thank you for speaking up.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
I'm just happy he's stopped. It's done with him.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
So tell me about how the school responded.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
I had actually never been in the courtroom, not for
the criminal investigations or anything like that. This was the
first time I was in court for the civil matter.
When I was in court for the summary judgment, they
made it sound like it was in a way my
fault because according to them, it was my decision to
(29:27):
take the class, and you know, they called it a relationship,
which made it sound like it was on me. They
made me feel like the guy was on trial. In
a way, it was pure victim shaming. I just felt
so misunderstood. I usually, you know, keep things together. I
(29:48):
don't you know, I don't cry in public, That's just
how I am. But I broke down. I felt so misunderstood.
I can't even begin to say how hurtful it really
wants to have the schools say that, in a way,
this was my fault. That's a lot.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
That's something no one should ever ever have to go through.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
This isn't about me anymore. This is bigger than me. Now.
What happened to me happened to me. I'm working on
my healing and you know, I'm doing what I gotta do.
But there are other kids out there who are now
going through the same thing. It's about them, especially with
(30:34):
Cobb County. You know, this is happening again with them,
and I feel so sorry for the family involved. This
is a fight for all the kids who feel like
they can't speak up, and no wonder I felt like
I couldn't speak up at the time because look what
happened from me speaking up, They shamed me.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
I think we've both learned that just sharing this stuff,
if it can help one other person, be brave.
Speaker 6 (31:05):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think this is a rare
thing for someone in your position and someone in my
position to come together and unite against something so horrific
that happened to you and I and other women. Especially.
This happened before at CALP there was a girl who
(31:27):
was assaulted and she was shamed, And there are victims
now and there will be in the future because of
the negligence of the system.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (31:39):
I just hope that this will help someone out there,
that's all I want. I just want this to help
someone who's going through the same pain that you went
through and that I went through. That's all.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
I was shaking so hard when we first started talking,
and I just I have none of that nervousness anymore.
I am so blown away by the adult that you
have become after going through that as a child. Thank you,
(32:14):
and I'm proud of you.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
I really appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
So what does your future look like.
Speaker 6 (32:21):
I've been stuck for so long, you know, over analysis paralysis.
It was sometimes consuming. My plan is is that I
want to get to this point where I'm okay with
myself and I can start putting myself out there again.
I'm slowly opening up. It's just it takes time. It
really takes time.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Oh, I know. I remember there were days I just
would call my mom crying and say, I can't do
this anymore. I can't do this anymore. I just had
to keep reminding myself baby steps, and I've come a
long way.
Speaker 6 (32:58):
You have, I mean, from what you want through and
then you reaching out to me. That was very courageous.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
I just am really proud that I get to talk
to someone like you and that I can share this.
This is what helps keep the world a good place.
Speaker 6 (33:16):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Looking back at that fifteen year old, what would you
tell her?
Speaker 6 (33:25):
I would tell her it's going to be okay, and
I would say I love you.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Coming up on this season of Betrayal, I'll talk with
some of the women who had affairs with Spence.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
I put this, I was being used whenever there was
a need, but I really thought that he loved me.
I came to your house once.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
He invited a woman into my house.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
He did. I bet I wasn't the only one.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
And I'll also speak with Spencer himself.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Step charges and consent to this recorded call press one.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
And on next week's episode.
Speaker 8 (34:11):
All of those girls, every single one of them, he
would message them, Let's get coffee, Let's get drinks. Nicole's
boyfriend actually told her to stop texting him because he
was like, this is your high school teacher. Why is
he asking you to go get drinks? You're eighteen. We
were all like, Oh, it's just coach Haaron.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and
partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by
Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
(34:59):
Andre Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced
by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actor Todd Gans. Sound
editing and mixing done by Matt Taveccio. Betrayal's theme was
composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by my Music
(35:20):
and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I think we have to make sure people are supported
when they come forward. Lots of times people want to
come forward, but they're scared this person has groomed them.
You know, I'm the teacher. I do this, I got
this award. You know, I've been here for so long.
These people know me, so it's very hard for people
(00:27):
to come forward to begin with. Then the lawyers on
the defense side, they're going to ostracize them big time.
They're going to call them a slept they're going to
call them a whod They're going to call them everything
under the book to embarrass them, and then that keeps
other people from coming forward. We really have to do
a better job.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
That was Cobb County District Attorney Flynn Brody Jr. I'm
Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode three, breaking her silence.
(01:12):
After Spence was put behind bars, he would often write Jennifer.
Here's an excerpt from a letter he sent after a
meeting with his attorney, Brian Hobbs. It offers insight on
how he viewed his relationship with the sexual assault victim.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Most of what she told the police was fairly accurate,
but her descriptions were sometimes way off. Brian says there
is great danger in putting much back on her because
it will take away my position of being remorseful, taking
responsibility for my actions, and admitting wrongdoing. My question to
Brian was, how do we lessen her half truths to
(01:48):
not make me look like such a monster or the
only instigator. Clearly I wasn't. But we've come back around
to the quote doesn't matter issue.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
My producing partner, Carrie Hartman, started emailing and calling women
that Spencer had pursued while he was married to Jennifer.
Many refused to even acknowledge us, but others wanted to talk.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Hey Dre, Hey Jen.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
So I'm glad we're connecting this morning because I do
have some news for you.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (02:21):
So we did reach out to the sexual assault victim's attorney,
her civil attorney really, yeah, and the victim she actually
filed a case in twenty nineteen against three school administrators.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
Actually, Carrie is the one who spoke to him directly. Carrie,
do you want to fill us in?
Speaker 6 (02:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (02:41):
So the attorney's name is Mike Rafie. He's in Atlanta. Actually,
we ended up talking for almost an hour.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Oh okay, So I don't.
Speaker 7 (02:52):
Know if you're aware exactly when the assault started. But
she was fifteen and she was a sophomore at school.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (02:59):
Now she's a twenty one year old college student. She's
a young woman, she has agency. Yeah, she wants an
opportunity to.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Tell her story.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Okay, but before going on.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
The record, she would like to have a private.
Speaker 7 (03:14):
Moment with you, one on one.
Speaker 4 (03:18):
She wants to meet in person.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I have not wanted to ever bother her in any
way because she's the victim in all of this.
Speaker 7 (03:35):
You both are.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
You both are listen. If she's willing that, that's huge,
that's everything. Yeah, I mean, I'm scared shitless, but I'm
searching for all the missing puzzle pieces to figure out
who this person is that I married. And you know,
(03:57):
in turn.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
If.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
It helps her in some way, I'll do whatever I can.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Jennifer was scared shitless. We talked to her right before.
They're one on one. Two very rave women who never
expected to meet just sat in a restaurant and listened
to each other, and then it went on the record.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Thank you very very much for doing this, and for
talking to me and for trusting me, and for sharing
your story because I think it's really really important. I'm shaking.
Speaker 6 (04:41):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
We have met once in person. What was that a
week ago?
Speaker 6 (04:47):
Yeah? It was.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
I told you then that I'm just really sorry that
this happened. Why did you agree to talk with me?
Speaker 6 (04:56):
Well, I wanted to talk to you first in person
because I thought and I still think, it helped me,
and I hope it helped you with the healing process,
because us meeting is a sign of empowerment and it's
a chance for us to start moving forward in a
healthy way. This is also a chance for me to,
(05:19):
in a way, to defend myself to the public eye
with my own words. It's one thing to go through
the courts and have an attorney talk for you, but
it's also another to step out and speak for yourself.
So I'm just grateful that we're here now.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
It was important that I see you for who you
were back then, which was a young girl. What were
you like in high school?
Speaker 6 (05:49):
Oh? Okay, in high school, I was pretty shy. I
didn't have a lot of friends. I knew people, but
I never actually took the time to hang out with people.
So I was kind of lonely as a kid before
everything with Haron. I had one boyfriend. It was someone
(06:14):
I went to the dance with. You know, when you're
a kid and you just you like someone and you
hold their hand. It was very innocent. I do look
back on that because sometimes I missed that innocence.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
I'm glad that you had that.
Speaker 6 (06:30):
That was a nice memory to look back on.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
Do you remember when you first met Spence when he
first became your teacher.
Speaker 8 (06:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (06:41):
I took the video production class, I believe my sophomore
year and that was level one, and so I was
just basically starting out with video production. I knew nothing
about it, so that's how I met him. We mostly
got to know each other during times of the Drone
Club when he first gave out his number to the
(07:01):
club members. It was mostly about shooting videos with the
drone or editing, and then he would write me more
about just music or sometimes movies.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
What was he like as a teacher when you first started.
Speaker 6 (07:19):
With him, Very energetic, just very nice to be around.
At first. It was fun that class. I had a
lot to look forward to with learning about equipment and editing,
and he seemed very excited about his curriculum and motivated
to teach his students. You know, when you take classes
(07:40):
that are not academic in high school, it's a relief
because it gives you a chance to be creative. And
it was also that trust that you had in someone
who was also so motivated to be a mentor in
his students' lives. So I saw him at first as
someone I can trust. You know, if I ever felt
(08:02):
like I needed to, you know, talk to him about school,
I felt safe at first to do that.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Of course, you're going to trust that person. Yes, yeah,
And I think that might be what some people don't
understand about this is there's a grooming process. Do you
feel like that might have been your situation.
Speaker 6 (08:25):
I think the students in general, those who were not
sexual abuse victims were, I want to stay groomed in
a way where he made sure that no one saw
him in that way. But me, as a sexual abuse victim,
I was groomed in a way where that trust was
(08:47):
implemented to violate boundaries over and over again.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
The reason my ex husband's in prison is because you
were brave enough to come forward and report something, and
so many times it doesn't get reported.
Speaker 6 (09:07):
Yeah, it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Unfortunately, when do you feel like that first boundary was
really crossed?
Speaker 6 (09:14):
We were talking about shooting this video or like short
movie with the club, and he had texted me that
he had feelings for me. I remember feeling I don't know,
I guess shocked. It's an understatement. I just felt so. Yeah,
I guess shocked is the word. That was the Yeah,
(09:38):
that was the first time at least when the boundary
was crossed. And he told me that he wanted to
talk about it in person, and I agreed to because
I thought maybe we could talk about it and that
would be that. When I met him at school, classes
were about to end around three. They didn't quite and yet,
(10:01):
so school hadn't ended yet. But he brought me back
to the control room and that's when he kissed me.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
How did you respond.
Speaker 6 (10:09):
It's kind of a blur. I'll be honest. It didn't
feel right. I guess I was just confused in a way,
and I think maybe I could have just had a
say in it. I don't know, like I felt like
it was wrong in my heart, but when he kissed me,
he would reassure me and say, well, you know, it's
(10:31):
because I love you. This is why you know, this
is why this is okay, because we're meant to be together.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
At the time, was it a shock or what went
through your mind?
Speaker 6 (10:50):
It was a shock. What I remember feeling most was
really confused. I think I was more confused with a
grown adult telling me that they had these feelings for
me that you see in movies, you know when someone
confesses their feelings, and as a kid, it's shocking when
(11:12):
someone tells you at the time that they love you
and they have these feelings for you that they don't
want to hide, and that you're special. It was a shock.
I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt
this way before with anyone, and that I was special
(11:33):
to him. That's how he made me feel. He made
me feel special and I could I could trust him
if I ever needed to talk to him about anything
or anything personal.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Sorry, this part is hard for me, but this is
what this journey is about. It's not easy, but getting
the clarity and the answers and filling in those blanks
that you don't know about help so much. And just
bear with me and I can hear it. I told
(12:11):
you this when we met. I do not judge you.
I do not hold you responsible. I am not mad
at you, none of those things. You know, how could
I be. You were the biggest victim in all of this,
and I know that, and I understand that. So it
(12:31):
sounds like there was some kind of I hate calling
it a relationship, but some kind of relationship established where
you guys talked more than just school stuff. If he
was developing these feelings for you.
Speaker 6 (12:48):
I hate calling it a relationship too. And I was
really thinking about this because I was recently in court
and the school said that this was a relationship, basically
placing the blame on me, that I was instigating this.
(13:08):
I understand what you mean when you say it. You know,
it's different from when you say it versus when someone's
placing the blame on a fifteen year old kid. But
he established with everyone a talking basis, if that makes sense,
Like he would give out his phone number to everyone,
and I think that was as a cover in a
(13:30):
way to make it look like it was normal for
him to talk to anyone over the phone.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
As far as you know, is that normal for a
teacher to give out their cell phone number?
Speaker 6 (13:40):
At the time, I thought it was normal But then
there was another teacher at CAL and I wasn't in
that club, but I overheard students and this teacher speaking
and they asked, well, you know, it'd be easier if
we just have each other's numbers, and I remember him
strictly saying no, no, no, no no. You know that
(14:00):
I will never do that. And that's when it kind
of clicked for me that this wasn't normal.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
So how did he justify doing this with a student?
Speaker 6 (14:12):
The first thing he said to me was, I've never
done this with a student. I've never felt this way
about anyone. The constant violations of boundaries, you know, had
the excuse of, well, this is what boyfriends and girlfriends do.
It's because I love you that we're doing this. And
(14:33):
he used my faith against me. You know, it's really
a true form of manipulation.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
How did he use your faith against you?
Speaker 6 (14:42):
He would say that God brought us together, that we
were meant to be, that it was all a part
of a cosmic plan, and you know, as a fifteen
year old, I felt really special to him.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Did you ever talk about if it was wrong or not?
Maybe not even teacher student, but the age difference or
him being married.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
I didn't think about him being married. I just thought
of him as, oh, it's coach hearing, because I only
saw him for the club and you know, for school,
and it was always just co charing to me, So
like his personal life, I didn't even really think of it.
You know. I expressed to him that I was a
(15:32):
virgin and I don't know if I was ready for anything,
And you know, it was always the same excuse. He
would tell me that it would be okay, that he
wouldn't hurt me, and that he loved me. That was
really the main excuse that he gave me because I
was hesitant in law as a kid, especially with the sex.
(15:53):
I wasn't ready at fifteen, I didn't really even think
about sex. And then when it was happening with him,
I didn't want to think about sex because I felt
ashamed in a way. He trained me to be a
woman and I was still a kid, so I was
really confused. I just remember being really confused as a kid.
(16:16):
The only times I do remember vividly are the ones
that were forced, because they're so vivid. I always felt
like I had to do things I just didn't want
to do. But at that time, my feelings for him
were already growing, and he would just reassure me that
it was okay because he loved me. Even when there
(16:39):
were times when he forced himself on me, he'd say,
you know, I'm so sorry. You know I love you.
I'm so sorry. You know this will never happen again.
And I believed him.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Oh my god, Yeah, I didn't know that person, and
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
I know.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Why do you think he shows you to go after
and pray on?
Speaker 6 (17:06):
I think he went after me because it was very obvious.
I was insecure. You know, I didn't have a lot
of friends, and I was sheltered. I didn't have anyone
to talk to. And I think he knew I was
a pretty really kid, and so he used that trust
that I had in him.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
I've done a lot of research. I'm sure you have
as well. It's textbook grooming and predator behavior.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
It is.
Speaker 4 (17:33):
And I didn't see it, and I know some people
probably don't believe that, like there must have been signs.
I can tell you if there was any hint or sign,
I would have spoken up and done something about it.
How do you think he got away with all of this?
Speaker 6 (17:57):
I don't think he just woke up one day decided
to do this. He was very calculated with how he
was with everyone, all the students he talked to, especially
the ones in drunk club. He was just very calculated
with every interaction he had with everyone. He put on
the face that needed to surface at that time with
(18:18):
that person, no matter if it was you or his kids.
For me, he was that person that he needed to
be at that time.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yeah, I lived on the same roof with this person,
and I am embarrassed.
Speaker 6 (18:34):
You shouldn't be. You didn't know.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
I know, but you know, if you understand shame.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
I do. I do, you shouldn't feel a shamed Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Did he ask you to keep it a secret?
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Yeah, he specifically told me. He said, change my name
on your phone to just one of your friends. And
I had a really hard time with that. But I
listened to him and he would say, no one could
know about this or else, you know, he could be
with me. And that was the hardest part for me
because I was close with my parents and I'm so
(19:09):
close with them. It was just, you know, heavy forms
of manipulation, saying I love you, that we have to
preserve what we had, is what he'd say, and that's
how high school was. After sophomore year, I was just
completely confused, and I just felt the whole time angry
(19:30):
and so insecure, and I just remember walking through the hallway.
I wanted to scream it or just say it to someone,
and then I thought, who could I tell this to?
Who wouldn't judge me, you know, because I was so
scared that I would be judged by whoever I told.
I remember thinking I wish Heron wasn't Heron at that time,
(19:50):
because I trusted him so much. I felt like he
was that person I could go to for anything, and
I felt so sad that I couldn't go to him
to talk about how this was happening to me from him,
If that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, because I felt the same way. You know, here
my husband gets arrested right in front of me, and
that's my best friend, you know. Yeah, that's the person
that makes me feel safest in the world, and they
can't even be there for me because the damage was
(20:26):
done by him.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Did he talk about plans for the future.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
He did. He would talk about that often, you know,
he'd say, I really want to continue this when you
graduate and go to college and he'd say, I see
you as my confidant, my best friend. He'd say stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Did I ever come up? Did he ever talk about
his wife leaving me?
Speaker 6 (20:55):
So he didn't bring you up on his own. I
brought you up because I remember seeing this picture of
you and him behind his desk and I didn't know
who that was. He said, oh, that's my wife, and
I said, oh, okay. I think he could tell that
I was shocked, and I was starting to feel really
uneasy about it. I remember feeling really sick to my
(21:18):
stomach about it. He told me that you two were
planning on getting a divorce, and how his friends were
on board with the divorce, and that I shouldn't feel
bad about it at all.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Wow, that was so crazy.
Speaker 6 (21:37):
Looking back, I don't know how someone could live with
so many lies and grew to sleep at night knowing
that you've manipulated everyone in your life.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
From the moment he woke up until the moment he
fell asleep. Did you realize at the time that what
he was doing is illegal?
Speaker 6 (22:07):
I wasn't sure about the laws when I was a kid.
I didn't really think about it. He just made sure
in my head keep what we have, you know, keep
this safe, because this is special. That's all I ever
thought about. I never thought about it being illegal up until,
you know, when I told my parents.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
So talk to me about why you decided to tell
your parents.
Speaker 6 (22:33):
I planned on not telling them at all. I thought
I'd take this to the grave. I didn't want to
tell anyone. I had this health class and she was
talking about STDs and I never thought about that when
I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. I never thought about that
(22:53):
until I took that class. And I remember her doing
this demonstration. Everyone was lining up in the classroom and
it was something really simple, like just people like touching
each other's shoulders in class, was showing like how it
could spread so easily. I don't know, it just kind
of it just clicked. I guess. I just remember being
scared that maybe I had caught something. You know. I
(23:16):
put all the stories he told me together. He was
boasting about this one interaction he had with two women,
and it just like all these things kind of popped
in my head at that time, and I got and
it just scared me.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
What was that story he had.
Speaker 6 (23:33):
Told me that he had a three way with two women.
He would tell me things.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
Telling your parents that had to have been so hard.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
You know, when I did tell them, I felt like
I immediately regretted it.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Regretted.
Speaker 6 (23:49):
I felt responsible for what my parents went through. The
I unloaded this huge burden onto them. That's why I
felt like I regretted that for a while. I never
regretted going to the police, but I just regretted telling
my parents. In my case, the police were really helpful
(24:09):
and they did such an amazing job with the whole thing.
They never made me feel any type of shame.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
Was there any relief when you did tell your parents?
Speaker 6 (24:22):
Yes, I did feel relief when I told my parents,
although you know the healing process, you and I both
know it's not a straightforward shot. Sometimes you relapse and
you go back and forth, and sometimes, like at first,
I sometimes regretted it just because of all the pain
that it brought up. I felt like I dragged them
(24:44):
into something that I didn't even plan on telling anyone
at all.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Gosh, it's so interesting that you say burden, that you
put this huge burden on them, because you know I
did that too, with my family and friends, with my
whole community. I mean, we all had to deal with it. Yeah,
my problem was their problem. Yeah, after you reported it
(25:09):
to the police, did they tell you what the next
step was going to be? Did you know what would
happen after that?
Speaker 6 (25:16):
I wasn't even thinking about the next step at the time.
I mean, I'm pretty sure that they let me know that,
you know, certain court hearings would happen, But other than that,
I was just processing this whole thing and trying to
sit with my parents through it.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Did you know that he would be arrested?
Speaker 6 (25:33):
I did? Yeah. By that time, you know, I realized
that what I was going through wasn't right, you know,
me feeling depressed and just completely devastated all the time.
I had an inkling that this was legally wrong.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
It must have been hard to share the intimate details
that you had to share with them.
Speaker 6 (25:54):
It was that the police didn't make me feel humiliated.
You know, they were very understanding.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
As you you know, retold the story to the police.
Did you realize then how wrong? Like did the pieces
all start kind of coming together it?
Speaker 6 (26:14):
Did? You know? Just as I got older, and what
really happened for me was when he was deployed and
he was just gone, that I could see things more clearly,
and you know that last time, you know, senior year,
when he was gone, I felt relief that I could
kind of start opening up to being more me, not
(26:37):
just hiding myself away, and I could start to also
see things more clearly. And I realized how good I
felt when he was gone versus when I was always
under his watch, you know, if he had that power
over me. So when he was gone, I could actually
relive and breathe, you know, and through that I got
(26:59):
a lot of clarity. It just clicked.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
That makes so much sense. He was deployed January twenty eighteen.
He came back from deployment two weeks before graduation. Yeah,
what about all the comments I know on social media,
people commented on the news stories, people commented a lot
(27:22):
of people, a lot of students, a lot of former students.
Pretty much anybody I talked to didn't believe it and
were shocked. Said he would be the last person that
would ever do something like this.
Speaker 6 (27:37):
I mean I didn't think this then, but I know
this now. It's always the people that you least expect,
you know. That's what I've read, you know, with research
at that time, when people were saying that I had
made it up, or that a student was maybe making
it up. I wasn't necessarily angry, because it can happen
(27:59):
that people make these things up. But I knew that
I was standing in my truth because there was evidence.
You know, they would see it, you know, as soon
as he got convicted. So I wasn't necessarily angry.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
If you hadn't spoken up, what do you think would
have happened.
Speaker 6 (28:20):
I think there would have been another victim.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Thank god. I mean, you saved my life, and you
were brave enough to do that. And I know it
kind of sounds dramatic, but literally, you saved my life.
I mean I was put in a really dangerous position.
He was also doing this to grown women.
Speaker 6 (28:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that are
silently thanking you. You know, a grown woman is saying
thank you for speaking up.
Speaker 6 (28:56):
I'm just happy he's stopped. It's done with him.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
So tell me about how the school responded.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
I had actually never been in the courtroom, not for
the criminal investigations or anything like that. This was the
first time I was in court for the civil matter.
When I was in court for the summary judgment, they
made it sound like it was in a way my
fault because according to them, it was my decision to
(29:27):
take the class, and you know, they called it a relationship,
which made it sound like it was on me. They
made me feel like the guy was on trial. In
a way, it was pure victim shaming. I just felt
so misunderstood. I usually, you know, keep things together. I
(29:48):
don't you know, I don't cry in public, That's just
how I am. But I broke down. I felt so misunderstood.
I can't even begin to say how hurtful it really
wants to have the schools say that, in a way,
this was my fault. That's a lot.
Speaker 4 (30:08):
That's something no one should ever ever have to go through.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
This isn't about me anymore. This is bigger than me. Now.
What happened to me happened to me. I'm working on
my healing and you know, I'm doing what I gotta do.
But there are other kids out there who are now
going through the same thing. It's about them, especially with
(30:34):
Cobb County. You know, this is happening again with them,
and I feel so sorry for the family involved. This
is a fight for all the kids who feel like
they can't speak up, and no wonder I felt like
I couldn't speak up at the time because look what
happened from me speaking up, They shamed me.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
I think we've both learned that just sharing this stuff,
if it can help one other person, be brave.
Speaker 6 (31:05):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think this is a rare
thing for someone in your position and someone in my
position to come together and unite against something so horrific
that happened to you and I and other women. Especially.
This happened before at CALP there was a girl who
(31:27):
was assaulted and she was shamed, And there are victims
now and there will be in the future because of
the negligence of the system.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (31:39):
I just hope that this will help someone out there,
that's all I want. I just want this to help
someone who's going through the same pain that you went
through and that I went through. That's all.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
I was shaking so hard when we first started talking,
and I just I have none of that nervousness anymore.
I am so blown away by the adult that you
have become after going through that as a child. Thank you,
(32:14):
and I'm proud of you.
Speaker 6 (32:16):
I really appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
So what does your future look like.
Speaker 6 (32:21):
I've been stuck for so long, you know, over analysis paralysis.
It was sometimes consuming. My plan is is that I
want to get to this point where I'm okay with
myself and I can start putting myself out there again.
I'm slowly opening up. It's just it takes time. It
really takes time.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Oh, I know. I remember there were days I just
would call my mom crying and say, I can't do
this anymore. I can't do this anymore. I just had
to keep reminding myself baby steps, and I've come a
long way.
Speaker 6 (32:58):
You have, I mean, from what you want through and
then you reaching out to me. That was very courageous.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
I just am really proud that I get to talk
to someone like you and that I can share this.
This is what helps keep the world a good place.
Speaker 6 (33:16):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Looking back at that fifteen year old, what would you
tell her?
Speaker 6 (33:25):
I would tell her it's going to be okay, and
I would say I love you.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Coming up on this season of Betrayal, I'll talk with
some of the women who had affairs with Spence.
Speaker 6 (33:43):
I put this, I was being used whenever there was
a need, but I really thought that he loved me.
I came to your house once.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
He invited a woman into my house.
Speaker 6 (33:58):
He did. I bet I wasn't the only one.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
And I'll also speak with Spencer himself.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Step charges and consent to this recorded call press one.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
And on next week's episode.
Speaker 8 (34:11):
All of those girls, every single one of them, he
would message them, Let's get coffee, Let's get drinks. Nicole's
boyfriend actually told her to stop texting him because he
was like, this is your high school teacher. Why is
he asking you to go get drinks? You're eighteen. We
were all like, Oh, it's just coach Haaron.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and
partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by
Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
(34:59):
Andre Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced
by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actor Todd Gans. Sound
editing and mixing done by Matt Taveccio. Betrayal's theme was
composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by my Music
(35:20):
and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Andrea Gunning
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