July 14, 2022 • 26 mins
A reoccurring theme throughout the series has centered around grooming. Rachel and the women with whom Spencer had affairs related how he built trust and leveraged vulnerabilities over time. Our audience, through emails to the show, has had conflicting and passionate feelings about what grooming is and who can be groomed. This week, Jenifer and Andrea speak to Jerika Heinze, who is both a survivor and an expert to shed light on what grooming is and the many insidious ways it works.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
All of a sudden, there he is standing there with
this very abrupt information that I find you attractive. I
think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing.
I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level
trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and
then all of a sudden, we might find ourselves going
along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, there usually
is a feeling that there's a point of no return.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode nine Grooming.
During the course of our series Betrayal, we learned that
Jennifer's then husband, Spencer, had dozens of affairs and sexually
(00:59):
assaulted one of his students. Rachel. The student, bravely recounted
her experience. On an earlier episode. She painstakenly recounted how
a trusted adult in her life roomed her by first
becoming a trusted mentor and confidant to a sexual predator.
It was hard to hear, but a lesson in how
(01:20):
adults manipulate children.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I think I was more confused with a grown adult
telling me that they had these feelings for me that
you see in movies, you know, when someone confesses their feelings,
and as a kid, it's shocking when someone tells you
at the time that they love you and they have
these feelings for you that they don't want to hide,
(01:45):
and that you're special. It was a shock.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt
this way before with anyone, and that I was special
to him.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
That's how he made me feel. He made me feel
special and I could trust him if I ever needed
to talk to him about anything personal.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
That interview triggered a slew of responses from many of you. Jen,
would you mind reading one of those emails?
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Sure this may sound scattered because I'm a stay at
home mom with four little ones, but I am Rachel.
I was groomed by my teacher and coach. He was
very calculated and prayed upon me, just like Rachel. I'd
never dated anyone, was very insecure and innocent. I have
(02:37):
felt so alone for so many years. Rachel was brave
and a huge encouragement for me. Wow, I know right.
It's that whole feeling alone thing that sometimes just makes
you feel like you've done something wrong. But then when
you hear other people tell a similar story, It's just like, Wow,
(03:01):
this happens to other people, so it must not just
be my fault, or it must not be my fault
at all.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
And we're seeing this in the emails. There's so much
relief and there's like a weight lifted. I mean, there
were so many others just like the one that you
just read, actually, including students of your ex husband.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
Yeah, we got a lot of feedback, but the ones
that actually knew him or were one of his students
at some point in his career. Oh man, it's sickening.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
And is sickening and it's consistent. Yeah, after we heard
Rachel's story, you ended up speaking with two of the
women that your husband at the time carried long term
affairs with and these went on for years. One of
the women was also a friend of yours at the time.
Let's hear a little bit of that.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
Okay, the way I was talked to to feel good
about myself to trust him, surely that happened to that
same girl. I bet you any money it was the
same steps. Just continuously building a relationship with somebody and
making them feel good about themselves, but also making them
feel like they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered
(04:19):
saying like, I can't do this, this is wrong. Well, no, no,
it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people
just click like we do, it's rooming. It is grooming,
and they don't mind taking the time to build that trust.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
We received a lot of emails about this particular episode.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
You know, out of all the episodes, this one getting
the most feedback from was really interesting. I think it
really started that whole discussion about what is grooming, what
is predatory behavior? Can you be groomed as an adult?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It was so interesting. So many people were just curious,
but also had a lot of feelings about it. Do
you mind sharing one of those?
Speaker 5 (05:09):
Sure? I learned so much from this podcast, but mostly
I decided it was time to forgive myself from a
relationship that has weighed on me for far too long.
I don't make excuses, and I take full responsibility for
my decisions. However, now I realized that I was a
perfect target, vulnerable and desiring attention, even if it was
(05:33):
the wrong kind of attention. This is nothing compared to
what you went through. But Spence and this guy seemed
to have similar characteristics regarding how they approached to others.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Emails like that make me feel really great.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Why there was empathy and forgiveness, and it's healing for
you and the other women involved with Spencer. Hearing from
the other women allows them to release that shame a
little bit.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
You know, people would ask why did you need to
talk to these women? And I understand that some people
are going to think it's weird or strange or something
like that. But that's how you understand someone else's side
of things. You listen to what they went through and
(06:22):
you realize that they were lied to, they were manipulated.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
But there were a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Of other big feelings about this episode that weren't the
same reaction, especially when it came to your former friend.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Yeah, you want me to read this one email we got,
Yeah share. The woman who had an affair with a
married man kept saying she was groomed. That is not grooming. Manipulative, yes, grooming. No,
she was an adult and he was not in position
of authority over her. This is an irresponsible use of
this word and takes away from those of us who
(07:01):
are really groomed. You may want to provide some additional
information about what grooming is versus being manipulated by a sociopath.
Language matters. And here's another one. The two women were grown,
adult women and know right from wrong. I feel it's
a dangerous viewpoint to treat women as helpless victims that
(07:22):
are at the mercy of manipulative men. Adult women can
make their own decisions. We are not weak, helpless creatures.
I think it would be a far more effective message
to hold the adult women accountable for their choices and
not portray them as victims.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
When we read that email about how language matters, I
was like, absolutely it does, and so let's have a
larger conversation and educate the audience about what grooming is
and really explore that conversation in this forum because so
many people reached out about it, just wanting to know
what it is, how it happens, and clarifying the difference
(08:04):
between what happened to Rachel and these other women, or
how are they similar, how are they dissimilar.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
I think we have been very responsible in telling this story,
and so when we did get this feedback, we decided
to seek out an expert to really help define this
stuff absolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
And look, our job was to tell your story and
let women involved speak for themselves and tell their truth
and their stories. And by any calculation, it took a
lot of guts to do that.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
It really did.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But it's also clear that we need to do some
more work on defining grooming in a more clinical way,
so we sought out a top expert. Jerrika Heinze is
a resource specialist at the National Sexual Violence Resource Center
and also the founder of the field Work Initiative, an
organization which addresses issues of trauma and gendered violence in
(08:58):
academia research field Work. Jerica is a cultural anthropologist who
speaks internationally on issues of sexual harassment, abuses of power,
and violence prevention.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Thank you, Jerica for spending some time with us.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Thank you so very much. I'm always very happy and
glad to have these conversations, not because they're particularly uplifting,
but more so because they've been so historically absent in
conversations that have had in our society, and I think
having these kind of illuminating conversations is the ultimate form
of prevention. So thank you so much for the opportunities
to do that.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Of course, So, Jerica, how did you get into this
line of work and become an expert in this field.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I myself have experiences of grooming and that culminated into
the sort of very subtle beginnings of sexual harassment, then
much more apparent sexual harassment, and that culminated into a
sexual assault. I was still a peach d student with
an immense amount of trust and moral debt towards an advisor,
(10:05):
a person who in my research field was helping and
guiding me for many years, offering help and aid and
trust in that individual who was significantly older than me.
But I was still a very much an adult woman.
I was in my late twenties. Since that there was
another researcher who was raped and murdered nearby that area,
and that was what fully initiated the creation of field
(10:26):
work initiative. My work at National Sexual Violence Resource Center
is looking very broadly at topics of sexual abuse, to
gender violence, domestic violence, and thinking about survivor led and
centered resources for folks. For the past three years, I
have interviewed survivors of academic trauma and fieldwork trauma abuse
(10:47):
and that kind of lended itself to a purpose of knowledge,
that's training and informational where we shed light on this
issue about grooming about the abuses of power and how
those dynamics un full.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So is it safe to say that your experience you
went through as a PhD student changed the course of
your career.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I mean I had this
fear that I didn't want sexual harassment to be like
my thing. I never wanted to do this work, and
this work is continued simply because it's needed. No other
organization exists that sheds light in the same way.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
So in doing this podcast, I spoke with not only
the sexual assault victim, but also with a couple of
the adult women that my ex husband had had affairs with.
The question that came up a lot for us is
how exactly do you define grooming?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Grooming is the concept of putting an idea in somebody's mind,
painting a picture that will align and allow them to
perpetrate whatever acts they intend, and building that emotional connection
with you know, the people they target, which allows them
to set a stage of hiding in playing sight. He's
a teacher, You would never do that is such a
(12:10):
great neighbor and a coach that targeting earning of trust
with the purpose of exploiting their own motives, be that
through sexual abuse, financial abuse. We see grooming with elder adults, right,
you know, FIDU shary abuse. So grooming is not anything
that is specific to any one age group, any one individual.
(12:31):
You know, anybody is susceptible to be groom.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
That is so helpful to know, because, as you know,
my husband was involved with women of many ages and backgrounds,
and so we've gotten so many questions and feedback about
grooming in this case, and it's been a topic of
so much debate.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Jerica.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
One of the things that I feel like we noticed
with a lot of my ex husband's communication with these
women were to kind of prey on their vulnerabilities, saying
things to them like how beautiful they are and I
haven't felt this way before, lines like that, would you
(13:16):
consider that grooming?
Speaker 4 (13:17):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Absolutely, praying on the vulnerabilities, those imaginations of what does
that person need to hear to kind of turn the
key for this situation to take flight. And you know
what I noticed in the story of the friend, you know,
at the bar of the initial contact, was that she
(13:38):
was coming out of the bathroom and she had had
a little bit of wine and that all of a
sudden that abrupked he's standing there, he's saying these things.
You know, if we look at our brains when something
unexpected happens or traumatic or shocking, I mean, it's lit
up like the fourth of July. There's confusion, what's happening
and what does it mean? What's going on? And all
of a sudden there are is standing there with this
(13:59):
very information that you know, I find you attractive, I
think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing.
I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level
trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and
then all of a sudden we might find ourselves going
along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, now that
person has become part of it. It's not as we
might imagine it would go, where we expect a person
(14:20):
to say, excuse me, no, I can't do this, or
you know, it's all very much preying on opportunism of
the person not expecting, and also the idea that that
person is special and that they're the only one, and
that it's not really a bad thing because I see
how special you are.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
How do you respond to people saying, well, they're an adult,
they have agency that feels different than someone that doesn't
have any sexual experience I was so young and really
doesn't have context to the sexual and romantic world. And
then if you have someone who has lived in the
world longer and has had those experiences, they should bring
(15:03):
that judgment to those scenarios.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
So how do you respond to you.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Know, a grown woman or a grown adult has agency.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
There's almost sea of different ways and modes that vulnerabilities
are kind of created and exploited. But there's no magic
age or a set age in which we're actually fully
formed adults that are completely moved on from any of
the things that you know, we might have struggled with
in our past or our traumas, and those are different
for different people. So you know, somebody with childhood sexual
(15:33):
abuse is going to have a different experience with that
than somebody who did not have those experiences. So it's
important not to be so kind of on and off
about where we imagine adults agency lies, and more so
think about trauma and as role and ol our thinking
in all of our concepts of ourselves and how we
move through the world.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
That's so interesting in the case of the two women
I spoke to that are adults that had affairs. I
think spence used making them feel beautiful specifically for them.
Do groomers look for a certain personality type.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think grooming is quite across the board. There was
grooming of neighbors and parents at school, There was grooming
of the coworkers. Planting that idea about them being a
trustworthy individual, and planting that idea about who they were
is a form of grooming as well. We do know
that when groomors see an opening of a vulnerability, they
(16:31):
are really privy to stepping in and perceiving that and
seeing and testing sort of where they can insert themselves
and insert and yield that power over them and then
over time sort of slowly portraying that image. But where
the victim still has that strong image in their mind
because there was such an impression made, and there was
everybody else that's holding the same idea.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
And how is that different if it's different than being
a sexual predator.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
We see at times with sexual predators, even though they
might have a desire or an inclination, there may not
in every instance be this premeditation, this grand orchestration that
we see with grooming. Grooming is that false sense of
an extreme emotional connection that the individual builds over time.
(17:18):
They're also never the same person twice. If we ask
an array of people who they are and what they
know about them, we might hear things about that person
we would never even imagine are possible. Because there's a
portrait that a groomer paints and they sort of hand
it to you.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
That makes so much sense to me. So much of
this project has been about trying to see the many
different portraits my ex husband painted to others. Spence painted
himself different ways around different people. To me, he painted
(17:53):
himself as the perfect husband and I was his perfect wife.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
And you just usually accepted, as we do in society.
If I were to tell you I was an astronaut,
you know what reason would you not believe that that's true,
especially if I say it with confidence and have a
certain way in which I carry myself with that information.
And so grooming is that sense of dependence and overall
vulnerability that's created between an individual and the groomer, and
(18:22):
it's all done for the purpose of orchestrating their own motives,
be those sexual, be those financial, maybe just the power
of it.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
He orchestrated an emotional connection with many many of these women,
obviously with the sexual assault victim herself, but also I
think with a lot of these other grown women.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
So when we were thinking through questions that we wanted
to ask you, Jerica, one of the questions was how
do victims who.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Are experienced grooming shut it down?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And as I was sitting with that phrase shut it down,
it just didn't sit right with me because it just
felt like it was on the victim. You know, those
who do not shut it down are weak. Those who
do not shut it down need to work on themselves.
They're not strong. And there's like this like weird inherent
(19:23):
criticism to that phrase.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
There usually is a feeling that there's a point of
no return that if that person who knew that you
told someone that you're going to be in trouble or
that oh well we kissed now you know, the cats
out of the bag? Yeah, how can victims know that,
no matter what has happened, there's always a way to
step outside of that dynamic and getting them to realize
that that's their right and that they have the freedom
(19:48):
to do it, and that you know, they're going to
be believed and they're not going to be blamed things
like that, and I think that telling survivors that no
matter how long something has gone on, no matter what
has happened, that you always have a right to set
it down by saying and expressing it. It's like, oh,
what so much has already happened. I have to somehow
(20:10):
spin it. I have to somehow make it okay or
make it better, or there's some sort of burden about
it not being as bad, or I have to somehow
go down with the ship, or you know, there's so
many ways people might feel it, and just letting people
know no matter what has happened, no matter how long
it's gone on, you always have the right to say,
you know what, I'm going to speak my truth about this,
this has been happening, this has happened, and that there's
(20:32):
always that exit button that usually begins with telling someone
we trust, usually begins with a feeling empowered to do
that because there's an immense amount of fear. It's not easy,
it's scary, it's extremely scary. It's one of the scariest
things you can imagine is not knowing what's possible.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
When you're scared or operating from a place of fear.
It's really hard to think rationally.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
We become hyper vigilant when we have trauma, and that
hypervigilance creates this thing our brain where we have to
imagine the worst case scenario is going to happen next,
We're going to be blamed. No one's going to believe us.
They're going to use some sort of revenge. That's why
we need more trauma informed education, starting from a young age,
why we need these kinds of conversations.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Absolutely. One feeling I get from some of these women
that I've spoken with is they were really upset and
angry with themselves for falling for it.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I'd say one of the paramount things to understand about
blooming is that the groomer has implicated you in this event.
You've played a role. And this is why I think
for you, Jen, as the core victim, as the wife,
we can't really look back and think that there was
any even red flags. But thinking to the fact that
(21:50):
all of these victims themselves played in some way, you know,
the groomer implicated them. Well, I kissed you and you
didn't push me away. You know you could have. I
know at any moment you didn't have to text me back.
You could have told the police at any moment if
you didn't want to, and you could have walked away.
You know, this is the way in which it happens.
And so what happens is the victims feel this as
(22:11):
the first surge of guilt. And that's how rumors are
so successful. They find that little wedge between where they
can really bring out vulnerabilities in the sense that they're
going to ameliorate them, but also drive that wedge. Well,
yeah this is bad, but you know I didn't act alone.
You kissed me too, And that's where so many victims
feel shame and guilt and self culpability. What we do
(22:34):
is we look back on our role in it and
think of a thousand ways we could have and should
have done it different.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
So what are some resources that you suggest for people
who have gone through this.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I think all victims need therapying. Of course, having a
space to talk about this. I think that having a
connection with other survivors is immensely important. When we have
group sessions, the kinds of can connections that can be
made between two individuals where we can say, hey, I
see you're blaming yourself and you totally shouldn't and the
(23:07):
other person says, yeah, well you're doing the same thing.
It makes connections that we can't otherwise do in a
one dimensional way or internally. We need to be much
more outward about it, talking about it, saying hey, I
feel really bad right now about the way that you
know I'm feeling about it. And it might be on
a random Tuesday when we're driving down the road. Feeling
is not linear. It's kind of like that, right, and
(23:27):
the same with these feelings and these emotions. So I
think the first thing that survivors need to know is
that there are spaces and there is help to be
able to let all of these things out from the
internal space where they just usually get worse and fester.
So it's really important to find each other and speak
about it and whatever it's setting is comfortable, be that
(23:48):
in a therapy setting, be that in a group setting,
be that just with friends or everybody else or whomever
the person finds good. And then understanding our ability to
create post traumatic growth, or we can say, you know,
I choose to create an error of where I see
that I was exploited in this way. So starting to
put tools in survivors' hands to realize the power they
(24:08):
have now even though they're nursing wounds to create that
post traumatic growth, whatever that might look like. And again
that is so immensely plural what it looks like to
the individual, and they get to choose what that is.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
This has been so enlightening and helpful, and I just
thank you so much for all of this information and
just educating.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Yeah, thank you very much. It's the education we need
and I'm really grateful that you could spend some time
with us to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Thank you so very much.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I just want to share one more email we receive
that really hit home because I think it's so easy
to confuse positive attention and negative attention, and this listener
summed it up so well and I think we both
thought it was worth sharing. At the end of this episode, JN,
do you mind reading it for us?
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Dear Jennifer and the whole crew of Betrayal. For three
and a half years been the victim of a predator
who has, unbeknownst to me until this podcast, been grooming
me and sexually harassing me. He is a charming, brilliant
and powerful CEO. I never had the nerve to tell
him to stop until now. You have given me the
(25:18):
power and the nerve, and you have opened my eyes
to the fact that it is not flattering to be groomed.
I've been in agony for three and a half years
and it stops today.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Cry.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
It's education, right, yeah, it's letting people know what this
behavior is so hopefully they can recognize it.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Little goes a long way, and we just want to
help each other.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal
Pod gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,
a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,
hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
(26:16):
by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Sound editing and
mixing done by Matt Tavecio. Betrayal's theme was composed by
Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and For
more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts
(26:36):
or wherever you get your podcasts.
This podcast discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
All of a sudden, there he is standing there with
this very abrupt information that I find you attractive. I
think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing.
I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level
trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and
then all of a sudden, we might find ourselves going
along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, there usually
is a feeling that there's a point of no return.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode nine Grooming.
During the course of our series Betrayal, we learned that
Jennifer's then husband, Spencer, had dozens of affairs and sexually
(00:59):
assaulted one of his students. Rachel. The student, bravely recounted
her experience. On an earlier episode. She painstakenly recounted how
a trusted adult in her life roomed her by first
becoming a trusted mentor and confidant to a sexual predator.
It was hard to hear, but a lesson in how
(01:20):
adults manipulate children.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I think I was more confused with a grown adult
telling me that they had these feelings for me that
you see in movies, you know, when someone confesses their feelings,
and as a kid, it's shocking when someone tells you
at the time that they love you and they have
these feelings for you that they don't want to hide,
(01:45):
and that you're special. It was a shock.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
I remember him specifically saying that he had never felt
this way before with anyone, and that I was special
to him.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
That's how he made me feel. He made me feel
special and I could trust him if I ever needed
to talk to him about anything personal.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
That interview triggered a slew of responses from many of you. Jen,
would you mind reading one of those emails?
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Sure this may sound scattered because I'm a stay at
home mom with four little ones, but I am Rachel.
I was groomed by my teacher and coach. He was
very calculated and prayed upon me, just like Rachel. I'd
never dated anyone, was very insecure and innocent. I have
(02:37):
felt so alone for so many years. Rachel was brave
and a huge encouragement for me. Wow, I know right.
It's that whole feeling alone thing that sometimes just makes
you feel like you've done something wrong. But then when
you hear other people tell a similar story, It's just like, Wow,
(03:01):
this happens to other people, so it must not just
be my fault, or it must not be my fault
at all.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
And we're seeing this in the emails. There's so much
relief and there's like a weight lifted. I mean, there
were so many others just like the one that you
just read, actually, including students of your ex husband.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
Yeah, we got a lot of feedback, but the ones
that actually knew him or were one of his students
at some point in his career. Oh man, it's sickening.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
And is sickening and it's consistent. Yeah, after we heard
Rachel's story, you ended up speaking with two of the
women that your husband at the time carried long term
affairs with and these went on for years. One of
the women was also a friend of yours at the time.
Let's hear a little bit of that.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
Okay, the way I was talked to to feel good
about myself to trust him, surely that happened to that
same girl. I bet you any money it was the
same steps. Just continuously building a relationship with somebody and
making them feel good about themselves, but also making them
feel like they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered
(04:19):
saying like, I can't do this, this is wrong. Well, no, no,
it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people
just click like we do, it's rooming. It is grooming,
and they don't mind taking the time to build that trust.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
We received a lot of emails about this particular episode.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
You know, out of all the episodes, this one getting
the most feedback from was really interesting. I think it
really started that whole discussion about what is grooming, what
is predatory behavior? Can you be groomed as an adult?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It was so interesting. So many people were just curious,
but also had a lot of feelings about it. Do
you mind sharing one of those?
Speaker 5 (05:09):
Sure? I learned so much from this podcast, but mostly
I decided it was time to forgive myself from a
relationship that has weighed on me for far too long.
I don't make excuses, and I take full responsibility for
my decisions. However, now I realized that I was a
perfect target, vulnerable and desiring attention, even if it was
(05:33):
the wrong kind of attention. This is nothing compared to
what you went through. But Spence and this guy seemed
to have similar characteristics regarding how they approached to others.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Emails like that make me feel really great.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Why there was empathy and forgiveness, and it's healing for
you and the other women involved with Spencer. Hearing from
the other women allows them to release that shame a
little bit.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
You know, people would ask why did you need to
talk to these women? And I understand that some people
are going to think it's weird or strange or something
like that. But that's how you understand someone else's side
of things. You listen to what they went through and
(06:22):
you realize that they were lied to, they were manipulated.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
But there were a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Of other big feelings about this episode that weren't the
same reaction, especially when it came to your former friend.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Yeah, you want me to read this one email we got,
Yeah share. The woman who had an affair with a
married man kept saying she was groomed. That is not grooming. Manipulative, yes, grooming. No,
she was an adult and he was not in position
of authority over her. This is an irresponsible use of
this word and takes away from those of us who
(07:01):
are really groomed. You may want to provide some additional
information about what grooming is versus being manipulated by a sociopath.
Language matters. And here's another one. The two women were grown,
adult women and know right from wrong. I feel it's
a dangerous viewpoint to treat women as helpless victims that
(07:22):
are at the mercy of manipulative men. Adult women can
make their own decisions. We are not weak, helpless creatures.
I think it would be a far more effective message
to hold the adult women accountable for their choices and
not portray them as victims.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
When we read that email about how language matters, I
was like, absolutely it does, and so let's have a
larger conversation and educate the audience about what grooming is
and really explore that conversation in this forum because so
many people reached out about it, just wanting to know
what it is, how it happens, and clarifying the difference
(08:04):
between what happened to Rachel and these other women, or
how are they similar, how are they dissimilar.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
I think we have been very responsible in telling this story,
and so when we did get this feedback, we decided
to seek out an expert to really help define this
stuff absolutely.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
And look, our job was to tell your story and
let women involved speak for themselves and tell their truth
and their stories. And by any calculation, it took a
lot of guts to do that.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
It really did.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But it's also clear that we need to do some
more work on defining grooming in a more clinical way,
so we sought out a top expert. Jerrika Heinze is
a resource specialist at the National Sexual Violence Resource Center
and also the founder of the field Work Initiative, an
organization which addresses issues of trauma and gendered violence in
(08:58):
academia research field Work. Jerica is a cultural anthropologist who
speaks internationally on issues of sexual harassment, abuses of power,
and violence prevention.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Thank you, Jerica for spending some time with us.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Thank you so very much. I'm always very happy and
glad to have these conversations, not because they're particularly uplifting,
but more so because they've been so historically absent in
conversations that have had in our society, and I think
having these kind of illuminating conversations is the ultimate form
of prevention. So thank you so much for the opportunities
to do that.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Of course, So, Jerica, how did you get into this
line of work and become an expert in this field.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I myself have experiences of grooming and that culminated into
the sort of very subtle beginnings of sexual harassment, then
much more apparent sexual harassment, and that culminated into a
sexual assault. I was still a peach d student with
an immense amount of trust and moral debt towards an advisor,
(10:05):
a person who in my research field was helping and
guiding me for many years, offering help and aid and
trust in that individual who was significantly older than me.
But I was still a very much an adult woman.
I was in my late twenties. Since that there was
another researcher who was raped and murdered nearby that area,
and that was what fully initiated the creation of field
(10:26):
work initiative. My work at National Sexual Violence Resource Center
is looking very broadly at topics of sexual abuse, to
gender violence, domestic violence, and thinking about survivor led and
centered resources for folks. For the past three years, I
have interviewed survivors of academic trauma and fieldwork trauma abuse
(10:47):
and that kind of lended itself to a purpose of knowledge,
that's training and informational where we shed light on this
issue about grooming about the abuses of power and how
those dynamics un full.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
So is it safe to say that your experience you
went through as a PhD student changed the course of
your career.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I mean I had this
fear that I didn't want sexual harassment to be like
my thing. I never wanted to do this work, and
this work is continued simply because it's needed. No other
organization exists that sheds light in the same way.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
So in doing this podcast, I spoke with not only
the sexual assault victim, but also with a couple of
the adult women that my ex husband had had affairs with.
The question that came up a lot for us is
how exactly do you define grooming?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Grooming is the concept of putting an idea in somebody's mind,
painting a picture that will align and allow them to
perpetrate whatever acts they intend, and building that emotional connection
with you know, the people they target, which allows them
to set a stage of hiding in playing sight. He's
a teacher, You would never do that is such a
(12:10):
great neighbor and a coach that targeting earning of trust
with the purpose of exploiting their own motives, be that
through sexual abuse, financial abuse. We see grooming with elder adults, right,
you know, FIDU shary abuse. So grooming is not anything
that is specific to any one age group, any one individual.
(12:31):
You know, anybody is susceptible to be groom.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
That is so helpful to know, because, as you know,
my husband was involved with women of many ages and backgrounds,
and so we've gotten so many questions and feedback about
grooming in this case, and it's been a topic of
so much debate.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Jerica.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
One of the things that I feel like we noticed
with a lot of my ex husband's communication with these
women were to kind of prey on their vulnerabilities, saying
things to them like how beautiful they are and I
haven't felt this way before, lines like that, would you
(13:16):
consider that grooming?
Speaker 4 (13:17):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Absolutely, praying on the vulnerabilities, those imaginations of what does
that person need to hear to kind of turn the
key for this situation to take flight. And you know
what I noticed in the story of the friend, you know,
at the bar of the initial contact, was that she
(13:38):
was coming out of the bathroom and she had had
a little bit of wine and that all of a
sudden that abrupked he's standing there, he's saying these things.
You know, if we look at our brains when something
unexpected happens or traumatic or shocking, I mean, it's lit
up like the fourth of July. There's confusion, what's happening
and what does it mean? What's going on? And all
of a sudden there are is standing there with this
(13:59):
very information that you know, I find you attractive, I
think you're beautiful. I want to kiss you. It's very confusing.
I mean, our brain is just on a cognitive level
trying to make sense of what's unfolding right now, and
then all of a sudden we might find ourselves going
along with it. Now we've shared a kiss, now that
person has become part of it. It's not as we
might imagine it would go, where we expect a person
(14:20):
to say, excuse me, no, I can't do this, or
you know, it's all very much preying on opportunism of
the person not expecting, and also the idea that that
person is special and that they're the only one, and
that it's not really a bad thing because I see
how special you are.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
How do you respond to people saying, well, they're an adult,
they have agency that feels different than someone that doesn't
have any sexual experience I was so young and really
doesn't have context to the sexual and romantic world. And
then if you have someone who has lived in the
world longer and has had those experiences, they should bring
(15:03):
that judgment to those scenarios.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
So how do you respond to you.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Know, a grown woman or a grown adult has agency.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
There's almost sea of different ways and modes that vulnerabilities
are kind of created and exploited. But there's no magic
age or a set age in which we're actually fully
formed adults that are completely moved on from any of
the things that you know, we might have struggled with
in our past or our traumas, and those are different
for different people. So you know, somebody with childhood sexual
(15:33):
abuse is going to have a different experience with that
than somebody who did not have those experiences. So it's
important not to be so kind of on and off
about where we imagine adults agency lies, and more so
think about trauma and as role and ol our thinking
in all of our concepts of ourselves and how we
move through the world.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
That's so interesting in the case of the two women
I spoke to that are adults that had affairs. I
think spence used making them feel beautiful specifically for them.
Do groomers look for a certain personality type.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I think grooming is quite across the board. There was
grooming of neighbors and parents at school, There was grooming
of the coworkers. Planting that idea about them being a
trustworthy individual, and planting that idea about who they were
is a form of grooming as well. We do know
that when groomors see an opening of a vulnerability, they
(16:31):
are really privy to stepping in and perceiving that and
seeing and testing sort of where they can insert themselves
and insert and yield that power over them and then
over time sort of slowly portraying that image. But where
the victim still has that strong image in their mind
because there was such an impression made, and there was
everybody else that's holding the same idea.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
And how is that different if it's different than being
a sexual predator.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
We see at times with sexual predators, even though they
might have a desire or an inclination, there may not
in every instance be this premeditation, this grand orchestration that
we see with grooming. Grooming is that false sense of
an extreme emotional connection that the individual builds over time.
(17:18):
They're also never the same person twice. If we ask
an array of people who they are and what they
know about them, we might hear things about that person
we would never even imagine are possible. Because there's a
portrait that a groomer paints and they sort of hand
it to you.
Speaker 5 (17:32):
That makes so much sense to me. So much of
this project has been about trying to see the many
different portraits my ex husband painted to others. Spence painted
himself different ways around different people. To me, he painted
(17:53):
himself as the perfect husband and I was his perfect wife.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
And you just usually accepted, as we do in society.
If I were to tell you I was an astronaut,
you know what reason would you not believe that that's true,
especially if I say it with confidence and have a
certain way in which I carry myself with that information.
And so grooming is that sense of dependence and overall
vulnerability that's created between an individual and the groomer, and
(18:22):
it's all done for the purpose of orchestrating their own motives,
be those sexual, be those financial, maybe just the power
of it.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
He orchestrated an emotional connection with many many of these women,
obviously with the sexual assault victim herself, but also I
think with a lot of these other grown women.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
So when we were thinking through questions that we wanted
to ask you, Jerica, one of the questions was how
do victims who.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Are experienced grooming shut it down?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And as I was sitting with that phrase shut it down,
it just didn't sit right with me because it just
felt like it was on the victim. You know, those
who do not shut it down are weak. Those who
do not shut it down need to work on themselves.
They're not strong. And there's like this like weird inherent
(19:23):
criticism to that phrase.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
There usually is a feeling that there's a point of
no return that if that person who knew that you
told someone that you're going to be in trouble or
that oh well we kissed now you know, the cats
out of the bag? Yeah, how can victims know that,
no matter what has happened, there's always a way to
step outside of that dynamic and getting them to realize
that that's their right and that they have the freedom
(19:48):
to do it, and that you know, they're going to
be believed and they're not going to be blamed things
like that, and I think that telling survivors that no
matter how long something has gone on, no matter what
has happened, that you always have a right to set
it down by saying and expressing it. It's like, oh,
what so much has already happened. I have to somehow
(20:10):
spin it. I have to somehow make it okay or
make it better, or there's some sort of burden about
it not being as bad, or I have to somehow
go down with the ship, or you know, there's so
many ways people might feel it, and just letting people
know no matter what has happened, no matter how long
it's gone on, you always have the right to say,
you know what, I'm going to speak my truth about this,
this has been happening, this has happened, and that there's
(20:32):
always that exit button that usually begins with telling someone
we trust, usually begins with a feeling empowered to do
that because there's an immense amount of fear. It's not easy,
it's scary, it's extremely scary. It's one of the scariest
things you can imagine is not knowing what's possible.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
When you're scared or operating from a place of fear.
It's really hard to think rationally.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
We become hyper vigilant when we have trauma, and that
hypervigilance creates this thing our brain where we have to
imagine the worst case scenario is going to happen next,
We're going to be blamed. No one's going to believe us.
They're going to use some sort of revenge. That's why
we need more trauma informed education, starting from a young age,
why we need these kinds of conversations.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Absolutely. One feeling I get from some of these women
that I've spoken with is they were really upset and
angry with themselves for falling for it.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I'd say one of the paramount things to understand about
blooming is that the groomer has implicated you in this event.
You've played a role. And this is why I think
for you, Jen, as the core victim, as the wife,
we can't really look back and think that there was
any even red flags. But thinking to the fact that
(21:50):
all of these victims themselves played in some way, you know,
the groomer implicated them. Well, I kissed you and you
didn't push me away. You know you could have. I
know at any moment you didn't have to text me back.
You could have told the police at any moment if
you didn't want to, and you could have walked away.
You know, this is the way in which it happens.
And so what happens is the victims feel this as
(22:11):
the first surge of guilt. And that's how rumors are
so successful. They find that little wedge between where they
can really bring out vulnerabilities in the sense that they're
going to ameliorate them, but also drive that wedge. Well,
yeah this is bad, but you know I didn't act alone.
You kissed me too, And that's where so many victims
feel shame and guilt and self culpability. What we do
(22:34):
is we look back on our role in it and
think of a thousand ways we could have and should
have done it different.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
So what are some resources that you suggest for people
who have gone through this.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I think all victims need therapying. Of course, having a
space to talk about this. I think that having a
connection with other survivors is immensely important. When we have
group sessions, the kinds of can connections that can be
made between two individuals where we can say, hey, I
see you're blaming yourself and you totally shouldn't and the
(23:07):
other person says, yeah, well you're doing the same thing.
It makes connections that we can't otherwise do in a
one dimensional way or internally. We need to be much
more outward about it, talking about it, saying hey, I
feel really bad right now about the way that you
know I'm feeling about it. And it might be on
a random Tuesday when we're driving down the road. Feeling
is not linear. It's kind of like that, right, and
(23:27):
the same with these feelings and these emotions. So I
think the first thing that survivors need to know is
that there are spaces and there is help to be
able to let all of these things out from the
internal space where they just usually get worse and fester.
So it's really important to find each other and speak
about it and whatever it's setting is comfortable, be that
(23:48):
in a therapy setting, be that in a group setting,
be that just with friends or everybody else or whomever
the person finds good. And then understanding our ability to
create post traumatic growth, or we can say, you know,
I choose to create an error of where I see
that I was exploited in this way. So starting to
put tools in survivors' hands to realize the power they
(24:08):
have now even though they're nursing wounds to create that
post traumatic growth, whatever that might look like. And again
that is so immensely plural what it looks like to
the individual, and they get to choose what that is.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
This has been so enlightening and helpful, and I just
thank you so much for all of this information and
just educating.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Yeah, thank you very much. It's the education we need
and I'm really grateful that you could spend some time
with us to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Thank you so very much.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I just want to share one more email we receive
that really hit home because I think it's so easy
to confuse positive attention and negative attention, and this listener
summed it up so well and I think we both
thought it was worth sharing. At the end of this episode, JN,
do you mind reading it for us?
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Dear Jennifer and the whole crew of Betrayal. For three
and a half years been the victim of a predator
who has, unbeknownst to me until this podcast, been grooming
me and sexually harassing me. He is a charming, brilliant
and powerful CEO. I never had the nerve to tell
him to stop until now. You have given me the
(25:18):
power and the nerve, and you have opened my eyes
to the fact that it is not flattering to be groomed.
I've been in agony for three and a half years
and it stops today.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Cry.
Speaker 5 (25:33):
It's education, right, yeah, it's letting people know what this
behavior is so hopefully they can recognize it.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Little goes a long way, and we just want to
help each other.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal
Pod gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,
a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,
hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
(26:16):
by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Sound editing and
mixing done by Matt Tavecio. Betrayal's theme was composed by
Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and For
more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts
(26:36):
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Andrea Gunning
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Season 5
Saskia Inwood woke up one morning, knowing her life would never be the same. The night before, she learned the unimaginable – that the husband she knew in the light of day was a different person after dark. This season unpacks Saskia’s discovery of her husband’s secret life and her fight to bring him to justice. Along the way, we expose a crime that is just coming to light. This is also a story about the myth of the “perfect victim:” who gets believed, who gets doubted, and why. We follow Saskia as she works to reclaim her body, her voice, and her life. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.