May 26, 2022 • 29 mins
One of the hardest pills to swallow for Jenifer was discovering a friend of hers was involved with her husband. She and her former friend haven’t spoken in years. Anger, shame, and blame created a gulf. In this episode, Jen confronts her former friend to find out how it started and why no one told her about the affair, even when the opportunity presented itself. She walks away with many answers and some questions that will never be answered.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast discusses consensual sexual activity. Please take care while listening.
One of Spencer's long term affairs was with a friend
of Jennifer's, and she found that especially hurtful. He wrote
about it to jen.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
To my memory, she was staring at me a lot
at the bar. I'm sure I noticed and tried to
dismiss it as just my imagination, but it continued. I
honestly have no idea how it started. I simply found
times when you or her husband were both out of
town when it was over with her. You can't imagine
(00:43):
my relief that problem in my life was over. I
was so happy.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is trial episode six, the
only one.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I don't know much about your relationship with this woman,
but she was your friend, right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I mean one of the reasons that I really wanted
to talk to her is because she was a.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
Friend of mine. She knew us.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
When Spencer and I opened the bar, her and her
husband started coming in as regulars, and so, like a
lot of people, we became friends with them. When they
got out for a night and had a babysitter, they'd
go to dinner in town but come.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
By the bar.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Before or after and spend time with us. So when
I opened Spencer's email and started scrolling through his photos,
all of a sudden her picture popped up. And to
see somebody, you know, provocatively in a photo and knowing
(02:05):
that they sent it to your husband, I mean, I
was so angry, as you can imagine.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I mean, I was with everybody.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
But I called her that night and it was probably
eleven eleven thirty at night, and I didn't care. I
went back to look through all the correspondence between them,
and I realized that they had been seeing each other
from like the end of two thousand and fourteen through
(02:35):
twenty sixteen, and in reading all of their correspondents, I
could really tell that she got hurt, like she had
fallen for Spence hard. She really believed she was the
only one. She really did. She left me a voicemail
(02:56):
and she said, I thought I was the only one.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It wasn't easy for any of the women involved with
Spencer to participate in this podcast. Jen's former friend agreed
to speak with her on the record. The requested that
we keep her voice and name private. Although this conversation
is one hundred percent real and the interest of protecting
her identity. We used a voice actor for her side
(03:22):
the conversation.
Speaker 6 (03:27):
Can you tell me how the relationship between the two
of you started.
Speaker 7 (03:30):
It happened so slowly, finding things that were similarities between us,
Like I played soccer, you know he played soccer.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I coached, he coached, So early.
Speaker 7 (03:43):
Conversations would be, you know when we run into each other, like, oh,
how's the game, or how's.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
Coaching, or hey, coach?
Speaker 7 (03:51):
You know, certain things that were not necessarily flirtatious, but
getting to know me and my family and you know,
making me feel comfortable with him over time, and then
I guess, you know, knowing that there was an instance
where he would try to start physical interactions.
Speaker 8 (04:09):
Was that usually at the wine bar?
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (04:12):
The very first time I went to the bathroom at
the end of the night, he asked me if I
could help stay there for him to close up, like
help carry something out. I went into the bathroom and
when I came out, he was there and mentioned like,
you know that we have this thing together. You know
you're feeling this too, right, And then he came in
for a kiss, then held my hand and touched his
(04:37):
crotch with my hand on the outside.
Speaker 8 (04:40):
Of his pants and what did you do?
Speaker 7 (04:43):
I mean, I just had wine, you know, So me
feeling like it was somebody I trusted over at least
six months to a year. I mean, I had thought
he was attractive, not that that's any fault to my
significant other, but he was traveling a lot, and when
he was home he fell asleep, and I was a
stay at home mom with kids, and I was stressed out,
(05:04):
and I felt like somebody got me in that moment.
So he knew he was taking advantage of that.
Speaker 8 (05:10):
So how did it propress them?
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Like?
Speaker 8 (05:13):
How did he, I guess, justify it.
Speaker 7 (05:18):
That we were meant to be together. However, in the
midst of things, I remember him saying that, you know,
his wife can never find out because you know, he
loves his wife and his relationship, so nobody could find
out what was going on. He made me feel like
I was the only one and special and I know
(05:39):
that sounds.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Weird, Nope, but both being married.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
And in a relationship, I was okay with it. I
felt like I didn't necessarily want to have physical contact,
you know, I think guys are more driven towards that,
but I guess in a way, I almost felt like
I owed him something and I never forced or never
said no, and against my will, but all along I
(06:04):
knew it was wrong. But then I would always hear,
you know, like you're so beautiful, you're really really well rounded.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
You're a great mom.
Speaker 7 (06:12):
But I was strung out, stressed out, didn't feel pretty
all the time, because you know, I had kids hanging
off me, breastfeeding.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
I was greasy, maybe.
Speaker 7 (06:22):
Showered every couple days, maybe washed up with baby wipes,
and him coming in and making like those compliments and stuff.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Of course it made me feel good, yea.
Speaker 7 (06:32):
And I remember one day after the wine bar, we
went to the restaurant back in the back, and I
remember questioning him, like how many people do you do
this with?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
And he's like what?
Speaker 7 (06:42):
And I was like, how many people have you had
relationships with outside of your marriage?
Speaker 5 (06:47):
And he's like, are you kidding me? None? No others,
no one.
Speaker 7 (06:53):
In my gut, I knew that this was happening all
over because I could see the way that he would
look at people in public situation. If I was off
in the distance or he was exchanging money with somebody,
his hand would linger on hers a little bit longer.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
It was a challenge. It was a game.
Speaker 8 (07:11):
So this happened over a couple of years. At the
peak of it, what was it like.
Speaker 7 (07:19):
Like we weren't in contact all the time. I mean,
it was mostly like texts or emails, and the times
that we met up were few and far between than
what you probably think because I wasn't about all that.
And then there were times where he would, you know, say,
well just role play and I felt okay doing that
because I'm like, I'd rather talk about it than meet
(07:39):
up and do something that I know is horrible.
Speaker 8 (07:42):
Did you also feel that sense to like please him?
Speaker 7 (07:47):
I did, because at some point I did kind of
feel like, well, now I'm in too deep. If I
try to stop this, is he going to like go
tell somebody, you know? But it wasn't like I was
ever forced. Looking back, that's what's embarrassing. I consented to
that stuff with him merely taking that time to build
(08:08):
that relationship. You don't want to live your life having
a shield up against somebody who's going to pay you
a compliment or somebody who's going to get to know
you and be a good person. But that's truly how
it happened, very nonchalant over time gaining that trust. And
I think people that have that sickness or that addiction,
(08:31):
they know that that's what works.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
It's grooming. It's rooming.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
It is grooming, and they don't mind taking the time
to build that trust.
Speaker 8 (08:42):
And at what point did you realize it was grooming?
Speaker 9 (08:46):
You know?
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Going through all this, I was going to church and
believing in God. Was I as strong with my relationship
with God at that time?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
No?
Speaker 5 (08:56):
I wasn't. I felt bad going to church.
Speaker 7 (09:00):
I felt bad taking the communion, but I felt at
one point like I was just in too far with things,
and it just hit me, like I realized what was
going on, and I just said, I can't, you know,
I can't do this anymore. And it was at that
point when I really realized that I'm not the only
other one that's being flirted with. And that's when I
kind of said, like, what's going on? There were plenty
(09:25):
of times when I wanted to come to you, but
I didn't think you'd believe me because he was so
good at charming and talking his way around things. You
probably would have went to him and he would have
denied it. And he's your husband.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
If you don't know.
Speaker 7 (09:39):
For sure, you know, there wasn't any evidence, but there
was evidence not earlier on, when it was just kind
of the grooming process, right.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
I wish that I could have noticed it at that point.
Speaker 7 (09:53):
I wish I had the strength to be that person
that would have just seen everything bright and clear and
could have given you heads up, because surely things wouldn't
have happened with other people, you know.
Speaker 8 (10:04):
And I think that's why it's important for other people
to hear this, because you can honestly say I might
have stepped into something and made that mistake and fallen
for it, but like, look, these are the sign.
Speaker 7 (10:18):
And then, especially when I found out what happened with
somebody underage, do you think I kicked myself the way
I was talked to to feel good about myself.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
And to trust him. Surely that happened to that same girl.
Speaker 7 (10:33):
I bet you any money it was the same steps,
just continuously building a relationship with somebody and making them
feel good about themselves, but also making them feel like
they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered saying like
I can't do this, this is wrong. Well no, no,
it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people
(10:54):
just click like we do. Those were the kind of
comments that I would get really oh my gosh.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (11:01):
But then at the same time, I didn't want anyone
finding out about this and didn't want his marriage to
be ruined.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
I think that was his cover. His cover was being married.
Speaker 7 (11:13):
People didn't expect him to do these things, and he
used that.
Speaker 8 (11:23):
So you knew me. You must have asked him about me,
like were you guys gonna go off together?
Speaker 7 (11:32):
Absolutely not, and I asked him that. At one point,
I said, what do you want from this? He would
say that he was happy and nothing was wrong with
his relationship, and he would just bring it back on
like you can't help, kind of like a fate situation
of two people being really good for each other, and
then he would say, like, you know, there's no commitment
(11:55):
or whatever. And then at one point I remember him
saying something about meeting up and I said no, and
he texted me a picture of his dick right right
out there, not even expecting it right out there on
my phone. So when he was wanting to meet up
(12:16):
and I knew things were wrong, I felt like, well,
if I could give him anything that would make him happy,
and I wouldn't have to do physical you know, like
meet in person and do that kind of stuff, then
I will. So if I was drinking wine one night
and you know, binge watching shows or something, and he
texted me and at one point then requested me to
(12:38):
send him a picture, I felt like that was better
than actually getting together with him, right, And then I
remember saying to him the next day, like, you need
to delete that? Will you promised me you delete that now?
Speaker 8 (12:52):
Are you surprised to know that he kept everything?
Speaker 5 (12:56):
I mean he told me like, of course, of course,
you know.
Speaker 7 (12:59):
But then in the back of my mind I had
a feeling, especially towards the end, that he did not
delete that kind of stuff really aggravates me. That was
personal and important things. Yes, that I made the wrong
decision to do, but in me asking him he should have.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Deleted those, like, I feel like that is not right
at all.
Speaker 8 (13:20):
Well wait, let me ask you this. I just want
to go back. Did you guys sleep together?
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Yes? Where in the bathroom at the bar.
Speaker 7 (13:34):
And then there was another time when I was out
on my own with friends and he was kind of
pestering me for me to pick him up, and that
was another place.
Speaker 8 (13:44):
This car. Yes, did you ever come to my house.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
I came to your house once.
Speaker 8 (13:50):
He invited a woman into my house.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
He did, and I bet I wasn't the only one.
Speaker 8 (14:00):
And so you just came into my house.
Speaker 7 (14:03):
He took my hand and he took me upstairs. He
had things set up in the upper bedroom with like
candles and shit. That was the point where I couldn't
and I told him no. So I ended up staying
downstairs and we got.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
Into an argument.
Speaker 7 (14:21):
And that was one of the times toward the end
that I felt like I just couldn't do this because
of the regret that I had for what I was
doing to you and my family.
Speaker 8 (14:30):
Well what did you think you were there for?
Speaker 5 (14:34):
I don't know. He talked me into going.
Speaker 7 (14:36):
I was just like, yeah, I'll come over quick whatever,
you know. I said, like, I don't feel like going
in your house, and I'm like, is somebody else home?
He said that you were traveling or something, and that's
when I was like, I can't. And along the way,
I think it was things like that situations he was
putting me into where I knew that it was going
(14:56):
past the point of no return, but I wasn't going
any farther. And then finally I just took a look
back and really started praying about it. And at that point,
it was almost like a dream, like I can't believe
what I did, what had happened. It was like what's
done is done. I ended up telling my husband on
my own without him even finding anything out, because it
(15:18):
was just eating at me.
Speaker 8 (15:20):
So what happened after you told your husband?
Speaker 7 (15:24):
It was one night and the kids were in bed,
and I ended up telling him at the table. I'm like,
I have something to tell you. I'm like, I did
something really horrible and he's like, did you have sex?
And I said yes, And that was the utmost hardest
thing I've ever had to do. And he was very distraught,
(15:48):
very distraught, and it was really hard for a long time.
You know, our relationship is great now, and looking back,
I think it was that moment when I got a
text from somebody with the article that came out about
him going to jail for underage sex and stuff like that,
and I had no doubt, no doubt. I felt a
(16:09):
flood of emotion. Is that something I could have prevented?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
You know?
Speaker 7 (16:15):
But that's the moment in our relationship that we could
actually look at this in a different light other than
me just being a person that goes and does this.
I thought I was just a horrible person and this
is something that I sought out, and knowing that it's not,
I was blindly taken advantage of in a lot of
different ways.
Speaker 6 (16:34):
Did us being friends ever give you pause or factor
into it?
Speaker 7 (16:39):
I know we were associated with you guys, and we
were friends, but like, there wasn't too much entanglement in
our lives. It wasn't like we were going out every
weekend and we were doing things together.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
And part of me looks back and wishes that would.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
Have happened, because I think I would have been stronger
to resist, you know, those those passes by him.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
What happened when your husband confronted and it's Spence about this.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
Just yelling and screaming, and he didn't want me to
hear him, but I was trying to listen through the
event in the first floor to listen to him, Like
in the basement. He was livid, he was yelling, spitting,
I mean, he wanted to rip him apart. Still to
this day, does cannot ever ever forgive even though he's
a god loving person, can't ever ever forgive what had happened.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
But at that point, like why didn't anybody come to me?
Speaker 7 (17:31):
I guess I just knew that it was like your
fairy tale and stuff, and I guess at that point
I just wanted to just hide everything.
Speaker 8 (17:40):
But then after that, you guys still kind of communicated.
Was that Spence kind of making that gesture?
Speaker 5 (17:50):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (17:51):
Absolutely, I mean, now that it was out to my husband,
I would have never I had to salvage everything that
I could. I mean, I wanted to meet up to
like talk to him about why and how many other
people and could he come clean with me? Because I
knew he was lying. And then I also wanted to
tell him, like you need to tell your wife or
(18:13):
else I'm going to and he avoided.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
He always made an excuse not to get together.
Speaker 8 (18:18):
The first voicemail that you left me, you said something
that stuck with me, and that was he made you
feel special and like you were the only one.
Speaker 7 (18:30):
He made me feel that way but lied to my face. Yeah,
I felt like I knew him and trusted him.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Looking back, it was so stupid. It was so stupid.
Speaker 7 (18:41):
I cannot believe I let somebody so far into my
mind mentally, and I think it was also the situation
that I was in, you know, with my husband working
a lot, and again not his fault at all, like
I should have known better as avoid of other things
I guess kind of in my life. He came and
he knew those were things I would tell him, and
(19:04):
he knew that he could.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
Be right in there.
Speaker 7 (19:05):
But my thing that boggled my mind was like, if
I was his only person, why would he always say like, well,
my wife can never find out or like I like things,
how I have them? Well, yeah, you do, because that's
your front, and it enables you to do this stuff,
enables you to go out and like encroach on other
women knowing that you're married, like nothing would ever happen.
Speaker 8 (19:28):
Well, I mean you were right on. There were more women,
that's for sure.
Speaker 5 (19:35):
You know.
Speaker 7 (19:36):
I hate what happened all around. And I feel like
you're super strong, obviously way better than he is. And
I'm glad you found this out in the way that
you did. I'm glad you found it out so you
can live a really awesome life moving forward.
Speaker 8 (19:54):
That's right. I mean, if one out of all the
women I found spoken up, you know, thank God for
the victim, the student who had the courage.
Speaker 7 (20:08):
She even waited until later to come out right, like,
you're scared. First of all, you don't want to admit
that you did something horribly wrong. You don't want to
admit that you were taken advantage of.
Speaker 8 (20:21):
Right.
Speaker 7 (20:22):
You know, it's embarrassing, but people can't be afraid.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
To be embarrassed.
Speaker 7 (20:27):
You have to talk to somebody.
Speaker 8 (20:37):
Are you surprised to hear that I found more women?
Speaker 5 (20:42):
No, not at all, Absolutely not.
Speaker 7 (20:46):
That's why when I came out and saw there's comments
about an underage girl and stuff like that, and people
being on his side, that pissed me off because I
sometimes wondered if he did that. You know, I was like,
all these girls probably think he's real cute at school
and stuff like. In the back of my mind, I
(21:07):
was like, hopefully he wouldn't do something like.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
That, and then like that comes out.
Speaker 7 (21:12):
I felt horrible. I felt mixed emotions. I felt bad
for the girl, I felt pissed off at him, I
felt sorry for you. I couldn't believe it actually came
out and happened, but I was happy it happened because
that got him.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
If not to this day, he could still be doing
that crap.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
But knowing that he kept all those things, that's somebody
with a major issue, major horrible, disgusting issue. He had you,
he had his kids, he had everything right in front
of him, and whatever it was, whatever was wrong with
him mentally fucked up or whatever, that is somebody with
(21:54):
an issue. So all along I felt like it was
me and that I was horrible and I did this,
I did this thing and made this horrible mistake. But
now I do realize that it is a victim type situation.
I'm sorry for what happened overall for me. You would
(22:14):
think I would know better, But exactly what happened to
the underage girl is what happened to the other women.
And you know what, there's probably so many women that
don't have remorse for what they did or what they
took part in. But I can tell you that I.
Speaker 8 (22:29):
Do, and I know you do, and I really want
you to get past this.
Speaker 7 (22:35):
I mean, I don't think about it every day now,
But of course, since you and I have come into
contact with each other over the past couple months here,
of course I've had like full on anxiety attacks and
I've had to like pop out out a van and
really try to get my head straight around everything. But
it makes me feel good for you saying that to me.
(22:58):
I can never be sorry enough to you. It was
never ever pointed at you. I knew you were in
this situation. But I can't even tell you how he
made it feel like there wasn't anything else, any barriers there,
and that was part of whatever he does and whatever
those types of people do well.
Speaker 8 (23:18):
And I guess I was looking for, like, what was
that secret ingredient? And how did he get away with it?
How was he able to manage so much going on
at the same time.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
I have no idea.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
You teach, you coach, you have a wife that you
do things with, You guys had a business. How do
you do all these things? But then I would hear
him say like, I'm going to go away on my
army weekend or whatever, and I knew I was like, Okay,
how many states does he have people in that he's
counting on.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
My biggest regret going back.
Speaker 7 (23:57):
I mean, of course I would say for all this
not to happen, But my biggest regret is not saying
something right away, and I'll always regret that. I can't
ever not feel like that. But I mean definitely helps me.
I don't know if I've helped.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
You at all.
Speaker 8 (24:16):
Yes, you did, you really did. Thank you. But that's
also why I'm sharing my story. It's one of those
things that's like, no, no, no, that could never happen
to somebody I know, and it's like, wait, what how
do you navigate this? It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I have a question like was your husband always on
his phone?
Speaker 7 (24:39):
No?
Speaker 4 (24:41):
I swear to God, No, I think about that all
the time. Was he sitting in bed, like texting all
night and things like that.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
No.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
I think a lot of it happened during the day.
Will never understand why she was able to tell her husband,
but telling you was different. Maybe she felt like that
was Spencer's responsibility.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
I think I do hold her somewhat responsible for not
telling me because she could have.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
And you would hope that the relationship and connection you
felt with someone would make them second guess their decisions.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yes, that's another thing. It's different for some reason the
women who didn't know me that chose to do this,
But for a woman who knew me and saw me
a couple times a week, I just can't even imagine
doing that to somebody.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Is it hard? To know that people were just like
walking around knowing your life and your marriage and your
house old was something fundamentally different than what you knew.
Speaker 5 (25:50):
It to be.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Yeah, and that's what it's so hard to wrap your
head around when your reality of the life you're leading
is one way, and then to think that it's really
not that. And there were people who knew it, you know.
I think there were people that did know me, maybe
(26:12):
not well, but certainly knew he had a wife. I
read so many correspondents with him and women and him
inviting them to the bar or saying it was so
good to see you at the bar last night, or
come see me at the bar tonight. So clearly this
was a place that I'm finding out now where he
used to get relationships.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
I walked away feeling like, this is a person that
was really hurt and really into your ex husband. Because
I'm trying to put myself and someone choose and unless
I'm interested, I'm not noticing the hands from a customer
on his hand, I'm not noticing the subtle looks. I mean,
(26:59):
she was paying attention to him on a very deep level.
She was watching him. That just makes me feel like,
you know, she was really roped in.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
I really think in her mind she had invested some
of herself into this relationship.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I'm just curious if you're like letting go of that
anger that you have towards her.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
I do have a little more anger toward her because
she was a friend and she was doing this right
under my nose with my husband. I also appreciate, though,
that she was willing to get on the phone and
talk to me about it, so I can let this go,
because honestly, I want her life to be okay. I
(27:48):
hope that the conversation maybe gave her some closure as well,
and hopefully by letting her know that he was like
this with other people, it helps her a little bit
to understand.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
And you know that this is a pretty sick person.
She's not the only person that fell for it.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Yeah, at the end of the day, it was Spence
that hurt me, But that part of being mad at
the women, I just don't carry that his behavior was
so out of control that it could have been anybody.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
On the next episode of Betrayal, I had.
Speaker 9 (28:28):
Never ever looked at her in any inappropriate way, not
at all. In fact, probably for the last ten to
fifteen years, I have not looked at any teen girl
as anything but that a teen girl. I'd gotten older.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
There were no fantasies.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in
partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by
Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
(29:09):
Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced
by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actors Todd Gans and
Rocky Ault. Sound editing and mixing done by Matt Taveccio.
Betrayal's theme was composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided
by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit
(29:33):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This podcast discusses consensual sexual activity. Please take care while listening.
One of Spencer's long term affairs was with a friend
of Jennifer's, and she found that especially hurtful. He wrote
about it to jen.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
To my memory, she was staring at me a lot
at the bar. I'm sure I noticed and tried to
dismiss it as just my imagination, but it continued. I
honestly have no idea how it started. I simply found
times when you or her husband were both out of
town when it was over with her. You can't imagine
(00:43):
my relief that problem in my life was over. I
was so happy.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is trial episode six, the
only one.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I don't know much about your relationship with this woman,
but she was your friend, right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I mean one of the reasons that I really wanted
to talk to her is because she was a.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
Friend of mine. She knew us.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
When Spencer and I opened the bar, her and her
husband started coming in as regulars, and so, like a
lot of people, we became friends with them. When they
got out for a night and had a babysitter, they'd
go to dinner in town but come.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
By the bar.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
Before or after and spend time with us. So when
I opened Spencer's email and started scrolling through his photos,
all of a sudden her picture popped up. And to
see somebody, you know, provocatively in a photo and knowing
(02:05):
that they sent it to your husband, I mean, I
was so angry, as you can imagine.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I mean, I was with everybody.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
But I called her that night and it was probably
eleven eleven thirty at night, and I didn't care. I
went back to look through all the correspondence between them,
and I realized that they had been seeing each other
from like the end of two thousand and fourteen through
(02:35):
twenty sixteen, and in reading all of their correspondents, I
could really tell that she got hurt, like she had
fallen for Spence hard. She really believed she was the
only one. She really did. She left me a voicemail
(02:56):
and she said, I thought I was the only one.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It wasn't easy for any of the women involved with
Spencer to participate in this podcast. Jen's former friend agreed
to speak with her on the record. The requested that
we keep her voice and name private. Although this conversation
is one hundred percent real and the interest of protecting
her identity. We used a voice actor for her side
(03:22):
the conversation.
Speaker 6 (03:27):
Can you tell me how the relationship between the two
of you started.
Speaker 7 (03:30):
It happened so slowly, finding things that were similarities between us,
Like I played soccer, you know he played soccer.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I coached, he coached, So early.
Speaker 7 (03:43):
Conversations would be, you know when we run into each other, like, oh,
how's the game, or how's.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
Coaching, or hey, coach?
Speaker 7 (03:51):
You know, certain things that were not necessarily flirtatious, but
getting to know me and my family and you know,
making me feel comfortable with him over time, and then
I guess, you know, knowing that there was an instance
where he would try to start physical interactions.
Speaker 8 (04:09):
Was that usually at the wine bar?
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (04:12):
The very first time I went to the bathroom at
the end of the night, he asked me if I
could help stay there for him to close up, like
help carry something out. I went into the bathroom and
when I came out, he was there and mentioned like,
you know that we have this thing together. You know
you're feeling this too, right, And then he came in
for a kiss, then held my hand and touched his
(04:37):
crotch with my hand on the outside.
Speaker 8 (04:40):
Of his pants and what did you do?
Speaker 7 (04:43):
I mean, I just had wine, you know, So me
feeling like it was somebody I trusted over at least
six months to a year. I mean, I had thought
he was attractive, not that that's any fault to my
significant other, but he was traveling a lot, and when
he was home he fell asleep, and I was a
stay at home mom with kids, and I was stressed out,
(05:04):
and I felt like somebody got me in that moment.
So he knew he was taking advantage of that.
Speaker 8 (05:10):
So how did it propress them?
Speaker 4 (05:12):
Like?
Speaker 8 (05:13):
How did he, I guess, justify it.
Speaker 7 (05:18):
That we were meant to be together. However, in the
midst of things, I remember him saying that, you know,
his wife can never find out because you know, he
loves his wife and his relationship, so nobody could find
out what was going on. He made me feel like
I was the only one and special and I know
(05:39):
that sounds.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Weird, Nope, but both being married.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
And in a relationship, I was okay with it. I
felt like I didn't necessarily want to have physical contact,
you know, I think guys are more driven towards that,
but I guess in a way, I almost felt like
I owed him something and I never forced or never
said no, and against my will, but all along I
(06:04):
knew it was wrong. But then I would always hear,
you know, like you're so beautiful, you're really really well rounded.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
You're a great mom.
Speaker 7 (06:12):
But I was strung out, stressed out, didn't feel pretty
all the time, because you know, I had kids hanging
off me, breastfeeding.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
I was greasy, maybe.
Speaker 7 (06:22):
Showered every couple days, maybe washed up with baby wipes,
and him coming in and making like those compliments and stuff.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Of course it made me feel good, yea.
Speaker 7 (06:32):
And I remember one day after the wine bar, we
went to the restaurant back in the back, and I
remember questioning him, like how many people do you do
this with?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
And he's like what?
Speaker 7 (06:42):
And I was like, how many people have you had
relationships with outside of your marriage?
Speaker 5 (06:47):
And he's like, are you kidding me? None? No others,
no one.
Speaker 7 (06:53):
In my gut, I knew that this was happening all
over because I could see the way that he would
look at people in public situation. If I was off
in the distance or he was exchanging money with somebody,
his hand would linger on hers a little bit longer.
Speaker 5 (07:09):
It was a challenge. It was a game.
Speaker 8 (07:11):
So this happened over a couple of years. At the
peak of it, what was it like.
Speaker 7 (07:19):
Like we weren't in contact all the time. I mean,
it was mostly like texts or emails, and the times
that we met up were few and far between than
what you probably think because I wasn't about all that.
And then there were times where he would, you know, say,
well just role play and I felt okay doing that
because I'm like, I'd rather talk about it than meet
(07:39):
up and do something that I know is horrible.
Speaker 8 (07:42):
Did you also feel that sense to like please him?
Speaker 7 (07:47):
I did, because at some point I did kind of
feel like, well, now I'm in too deep. If I
try to stop this, is he going to like go
tell somebody, you know? But it wasn't like I was
ever forced. Looking back, that's what's embarrassing. I consented to
that stuff with him merely taking that time to build
(08:08):
that relationship. You don't want to live your life having
a shield up against somebody who's going to pay you
a compliment or somebody who's going to get to know
you and be a good person. But that's truly how
it happened, very nonchalant over time gaining that trust. And
I think people that have that sickness or that addiction,
(08:31):
they know that that's what works.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
It's grooming. It's rooming.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
It is grooming, and they don't mind taking the time
to build that trust.
Speaker 8 (08:42):
And at what point did you realize it was grooming?
Speaker 9 (08:46):
You know?
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Going through all this, I was going to church and
believing in God. Was I as strong with my relationship
with God at that time?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
No?
Speaker 5 (08:56):
I wasn't. I felt bad going to church.
Speaker 7 (09:00):
I felt bad taking the communion, but I felt at
one point like I was just in too far with things,
and it just hit me, like I realized what was
going on, and I just said, I can't, you know,
I can't do this anymore. And it was at that
point when I really realized that I'm not the only
other one that's being flirted with. And that's when I
kind of said, like, what's going on? There were plenty
(09:25):
of times when I wanted to come to you, but
I didn't think you'd believe me because he was so
good at charming and talking his way around things. You
probably would have went to him and he would have
denied it. And he's your husband.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
If you don't know.
Speaker 7 (09:39):
For sure, you know, there wasn't any evidence, but there
was evidence not earlier on, when it was just kind
of the grooming process, right.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
I wish that I could have noticed it at that point.
Speaker 7 (09:53):
I wish I had the strength to be that person
that would have just seen everything bright and clear and
could have given you heads up, because surely things wouldn't
have happened with other people, you know.
Speaker 8 (10:04):
And I think that's why it's important for other people
to hear this, because you can honestly say I might
have stepped into something and made that mistake and fallen
for it, but like, look, these are the sign.
Speaker 7 (10:18):
And then, especially when I found out what happened with
somebody underage, do you think I kicked myself the way
I was talked to to feel good about myself.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
And to trust him. Surely that happened to that same girl.
Speaker 7 (10:33):
I bet you any money it was the same steps,
just continuously building a relationship with somebody and making them
feel good about themselves, but also making them feel like
they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered saying like
I can't do this, this is wrong. Well no, no,
it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people
(10:54):
just click like we do. Those were the kind of
comments that I would get really oh my gosh.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (11:01):
But then at the same time, I didn't want anyone
finding out about this and didn't want his marriage to
be ruined.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
I think that was his cover. His cover was being married.
Speaker 7 (11:13):
People didn't expect him to do these things, and he
used that.
Speaker 8 (11:23):
So you knew me. You must have asked him about me,
like were you guys gonna go off together?
Speaker 7 (11:32):
Absolutely not, and I asked him that. At one point,
I said, what do you want from this? He would
say that he was happy and nothing was wrong with
his relationship, and he would just bring it back on
like you can't help, kind of like a fate situation
of two people being really good for each other, and
then he would say, like, you know, there's no commitment
(11:55):
or whatever. And then at one point I remember him
saying something about meeting up and I said no, and
he texted me a picture of his dick right right
out there, not even expecting it right out there on
my phone. So when he was wanting to meet up
(12:16):
and I knew things were wrong, I felt like, well,
if I could give him anything that would make him happy,
and I wouldn't have to do physical you know, like
meet in person and do that kind of stuff, then
I will. So if I was drinking wine one night
and you know, binge watching shows or something, and he
texted me and at one point then requested me to
(12:38):
send him a picture, I felt like that was better
than actually getting together with him, right, And then I
remember saying to him the next day, like, you need
to delete that? Will you promised me you delete that now?
Speaker 8 (12:52):
Are you surprised to know that he kept everything?
Speaker 5 (12:56):
I mean he told me like, of course, of course,
you know.
Speaker 7 (12:59):
But then in the back of my mind I had
a feeling, especially towards the end, that he did not
delete that kind of stuff really aggravates me. That was
personal and important things. Yes, that I made the wrong
decision to do, but in me asking him he should have.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Deleted those, like, I feel like that is not right
at all.
Speaker 8 (13:20):
Well wait, let me ask you this. I just want
to go back. Did you guys sleep together?
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Yes? Where in the bathroom at the bar.
Speaker 7 (13:34):
And then there was another time when I was out
on my own with friends and he was kind of
pestering me for me to pick him up, and that
was another place.
Speaker 8 (13:44):
This car. Yes, did you ever come to my house.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
I came to your house once.
Speaker 8 (13:50):
He invited a woman into my house.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
He did, and I bet I wasn't the only one.
Speaker 8 (14:00):
And so you just came into my house.
Speaker 7 (14:03):
He took my hand and he took me upstairs. He
had things set up in the upper bedroom with like
candles and shit. That was the point where I couldn't
and I told him no. So I ended up staying
downstairs and we got.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
Into an argument.
Speaker 7 (14:21):
And that was one of the times toward the end
that I felt like I just couldn't do this because
of the regret that I had for what I was
doing to you and my family.
Speaker 8 (14:30):
Well what did you think you were there for?
Speaker 5 (14:34):
I don't know. He talked me into going.
Speaker 7 (14:36):
I was just like, yeah, I'll come over quick whatever,
you know. I said, like, I don't feel like going
in your house, and I'm like, is somebody else home?
He said that you were traveling or something, and that's
when I was like, I can't. And along the way,
I think it was things like that situations he was
putting me into where I knew that it was going
(14:56):
past the point of no return, but I wasn't going
any farther. And then finally I just took a look
back and really started praying about it. And at that point,
it was almost like a dream, like I can't believe
what I did, what had happened. It was like what's
done is done. I ended up telling my husband on
my own without him even finding anything out, because it
(15:18):
was just eating at me.
Speaker 8 (15:20):
So what happened after you told your husband?
Speaker 7 (15:24):
It was one night and the kids were in bed,
and I ended up telling him at the table. I'm like,
I have something to tell you. I'm like, I did
something really horrible and he's like, did you have sex?
And I said yes, And that was the utmost hardest
thing I've ever had to do. And he was very distraught,
(15:48):
very distraught, and it was really hard for a long time.
You know, our relationship is great now, and looking back,
I think it was that moment when I got a
text from somebody with the article that came out about
him going to jail for underage sex and stuff like that,
and I had no doubt, no doubt. I felt a
(16:09):
flood of emotion. Is that something I could have prevented?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
You know?
Speaker 7 (16:15):
But that's the moment in our relationship that we could
actually look at this in a different light other than
me just being a person that goes and does this.
I thought I was just a horrible person and this
is something that I sought out, and knowing that it's not,
I was blindly taken advantage of in a lot of
different ways.
Speaker 6 (16:34):
Did us being friends ever give you pause or factor
into it?
Speaker 7 (16:39):
I know we were associated with you guys, and we
were friends, but like, there wasn't too much entanglement in
our lives. It wasn't like we were going out every
weekend and we were doing things together.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
And part of me looks back and wishes that would.
Speaker 7 (16:52):
Have happened, because I think I would have been stronger
to resist, you know, those those passes by him.
Speaker 6 (16:58):
What happened when your husband confronted and it's Spence about this.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
Just yelling and screaming, and he didn't want me to
hear him, but I was trying to listen through the
event in the first floor to listen to him, Like
in the basement. He was livid, he was yelling, spitting,
I mean, he wanted to rip him apart. Still to
this day, does cannot ever ever forgive even though he's
a god loving person, can't ever ever forgive what had happened.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
But at that point, like why didn't anybody come to me?
Speaker 7 (17:31):
I guess I just knew that it was like your
fairy tale and stuff, and I guess at that point
I just wanted to just hide everything.
Speaker 8 (17:40):
But then after that, you guys still kind of communicated.
Was that Spence kind of making that gesture?
Speaker 5 (17:50):
Oh?
Speaker 7 (17:51):
Absolutely, I mean, now that it was out to my husband,
I would have never I had to salvage everything that
I could. I mean, I wanted to meet up to
like talk to him about why and how many other
people and could he come clean with me? Because I
knew he was lying. And then I also wanted to
tell him, like you need to tell your wife or
(18:13):
else I'm going to and he avoided.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
He always made an excuse not to get together.
Speaker 8 (18:18):
The first voicemail that you left me, you said something
that stuck with me, and that was he made you
feel special and like you were the only one.
Speaker 7 (18:30):
He made me feel that way but lied to my face. Yeah,
I felt like I knew him and trusted him.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Looking back, it was so stupid. It was so stupid.
Speaker 7 (18:41):
I cannot believe I let somebody so far into my
mind mentally, and I think it was also the situation
that I was in, you know, with my husband working
a lot, and again not his fault at all, like
I should have known better as avoid of other things
I guess kind of in my life. He came and
he knew those were things I would tell him, and
(19:04):
he knew that he could.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
Be right in there.
Speaker 7 (19:05):
But my thing that boggled my mind was like, if
I was his only person, why would he always say like, well,
my wife can never find out or like I like things,
how I have them? Well, yeah, you do, because that's
your front, and it enables you to do this stuff,
enables you to go out and like encroach on other
women knowing that you're married, like nothing would ever happen.
Speaker 8 (19:28):
Well, I mean you were right on. There were more women,
that's for sure.
Speaker 5 (19:35):
You know.
Speaker 7 (19:36):
I hate what happened all around. And I feel like
you're super strong, obviously way better than he is. And
I'm glad you found this out in the way that
you did. I'm glad you found it out so you
can live a really awesome life moving forward.
Speaker 8 (19:54):
That's right. I mean, if one out of all the
women I found spoken up, you know, thank God for
the victim, the student who had the courage.
Speaker 7 (20:08):
She even waited until later to come out right, like,
you're scared. First of all, you don't want to admit
that you did something horribly wrong. You don't want to
admit that you were taken advantage of.
Speaker 8 (20:21):
Right.
Speaker 7 (20:22):
You know, it's embarrassing, but people can't be afraid.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
To be embarrassed.
Speaker 7 (20:27):
You have to talk to somebody.
Speaker 8 (20:37):
Are you surprised to hear that I found more women?
Speaker 5 (20:42):
No, not at all, Absolutely not.
Speaker 7 (20:46):
That's why when I came out and saw there's comments
about an underage girl and stuff like that, and people
being on his side, that pissed me off because I
sometimes wondered if he did that. You know, I was like,
all these girls probably think he's real cute at school
and stuff like. In the back of my mind, I
(21:07):
was like, hopefully he wouldn't do something like.
Speaker 5 (21:10):
That, and then like that comes out.
Speaker 7 (21:12):
I felt horrible. I felt mixed emotions. I felt bad
for the girl, I felt pissed off at him, I
felt sorry for you. I couldn't believe it actually came
out and happened, but I was happy it happened because
that got him.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
If not to this day, he could still be doing
that crap.
Speaker 7 (21:33):
But knowing that he kept all those things, that's somebody
with a major issue, major horrible, disgusting issue. He had you,
he had his kids, he had everything right in front
of him, and whatever it was, whatever was wrong with
him mentally fucked up or whatever, that is somebody with
(21:54):
an issue. So all along I felt like it was
me and that I was horrible and I did this,
I did this thing and made this horrible mistake. But
now I do realize that it is a victim type situation.
I'm sorry for what happened overall for me. You would
(22:14):
think I would know better, But exactly what happened to
the underage girl is what happened to the other women.
And you know what, there's probably so many women that
don't have remorse for what they did or what they
took part in. But I can tell you that I.
Speaker 8 (22:29):
Do, and I know you do, and I really want
you to get past this.
Speaker 7 (22:35):
I mean, I don't think about it every day now,
But of course, since you and I have come into
contact with each other over the past couple months here,
of course I've had like full on anxiety attacks and
I've had to like pop out out a van and
really try to get my head straight around everything. But
it makes me feel good for you saying that to me.
(22:58):
I can never be sorry enough to you. It was
never ever pointed at you. I knew you were in
this situation. But I can't even tell you how he
made it feel like there wasn't anything else, any barriers there,
and that was part of whatever he does and whatever
those types of people do well.
Speaker 8 (23:18):
And I guess I was looking for, like, what was
that secret ingredient? And how did he get away with it?
How was he able to manage so much going on
at the same time.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
I have no idea.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
You teach, you coach, you have a wife that you
do things with, You guys had a business. How do
you do all these things? But then I would hear
him say like, I'm going to go away on my
army weekend or whatever, and I knew I was like, Okay,
how many states does he have people in that he's
counting on.
Speaker 5 (23:54):
My biggest regret going back.
Speaker 7 (23:57):
I mean, of course I would say for all this
not to happen, But my biggest regret is not saying
something right away, and I'll always regret that. I can't
ever not feel like that. But I mean definitely helps me.
I don't know if I've helped.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
You at all.
Speaker 8 (24:16):
Yes, you did, you really did. Thank you. But that's
also why I'm sharing my story. It's one of those
things that's like, no, no, no, that could never happen
to somebody I know, and it's like, wait, what how
do you navigate this? It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I have a question like was your husband always on
his phone?
Speaker 7 (24:39):
No?
Speaker 4 (24:41):
I swear to God, No, I think about that all
the time. Was he sitting in bed, like texting all
night and things like that.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
No.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
I think a lot of it happened during the day.
Will never understand why she was able to tell her husband,
but telling you was different. Maybe she felt like that
was Spencer's responsibility.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
I think I do hold her somewhat responsible for not
telling me because she could have.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
And you would hope that the relationship and connection you
felt with someone would make them second guess their decisions.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yes, that's another thing. It's different for some reason the
women who didn't know me that chose to do this,
But for a woman who knew me and saw me
a couple times a week, I just can't even imagine
doing that to somebody.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Is it hard? To know that people were just like
walking around knowing your life and your marriage and your
house old was something fundamentally different than what you knew.
Speaker 5 (25:50):
It to be.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Yeah, and that's what it's so hard to wrap your
head around when your reality of the life you're leading
is one way, and then to think that it's really
not that. And there were people who knew it, you know.
I think there were people that did know me, maybe
(26:12):
not well, but certainly knew he had a wife. I
read so many correspondents with him and women and him
inviting them to the bar or saying it was so
good to see you at the bar last night, or
come see me at the bar tonight. So clearly this
was a place that I'm finding out now where he
used to get relationships.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
I walked away feeling like, this is a person that
was really hurt and really into your ex husband. Because
I'm trying to put myself and someone choose and unless
I'm interested, I'm not noticing the hands from a customer
on his hand, I'm not noticing the subtle looks. I mean,
(26:59):
she was paying attention to him on a very deep level.
She was watching him. That just makes me feel like,
you know, she was really roped in.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
I really think in her mind she had invested some
of herself into this relationship.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
I'm just curious if you're like letting go of that
anger that you have towards her.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
I do have a little more anger toward her because
she was a friend and she was doing this right
under my nose with my husband. I also appreciate, though,
that she was willing to get on the phone and
talk to me about it, so I can let this go,
because honestly, I want her life to be okay. I
(27:48):
hope that the conversation maybe gave her some closure as well,
and hopefully by letting her know that he was like
this with other people, it helps her a little bit
to understand.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
And you know that this is a pretty sick person.
She's not the only person that fell for it.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Yeah, at the end of the day, it was Spence
that hurt me, But that part of being mad at
the women, I just don't carry that his behavior was
so out of control that it could have been anybody.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
On the next episode of Betrayal, I had.
Speaker 9 (28:28):
Never ever looked at her in any inappropriate way, not
at all. In fact, probably for the last ten to
fifteen years, I have not looked at any teen girl
as anything but that a teen girl. I'd gotten older.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
There were no fantasies.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in
partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by
Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
(29:09):
Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced
by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to voice actors Todd Gans and
Rocky Ault. Sound editing and mixing done by Matt Taveccio.
Betrayal's theme was composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided
by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit
(29:33):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Andrea Gunning
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