RE-RELEASE: Bernie Pt.1 & Pt. 2

This week, our team is taking a holiday break, and we’re re-releasing a listener favorite, Bernie Pt 1 & Pt 2. Bernie Brown met a charming man from a powerful UK family. Their romance had to stay secret. But Bernie would soon learn the real secret was far more dangerous.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, Betrayal listeners, it's under a Gunning. We're off this
week for Thanksgiving, but we'll be back next week. This week,
we wanted to re release a listener favorite, Bernie Brown's story.
We originally released it in two parts, but for this
re release, we're combining both parts. You can hear his
full story all at once. We'll be back next week
and in the meantime, Happy Thanksgiving for those celebrating. You're

(00:23):
so grateful for all of you listeners. Thank you for everything. So,
without further ado, here's Bernie's story.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
So we sat down and he was like, he doesn't
believe in NDA, so he's not going to ask for
one of them. And I was just like, what the
hell is going on here? Like what is happening? And
it was like, Oh, do you know what? I think?
I need to tell you a little bit about my
family history.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about
the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
change everything. Today I want to introduce you to Bernie Brown.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
My entire life's being paycheck to paycheck. I'm just very
clever with it. I've cut my own hair for the
past twenty years and colored it because I'm like, well,
if somebody else can do that, why can't I do that.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
While growing up in London, Bernie experienced a difficult upbringing.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
My childhood was very rough. My mum was extremely strong,
but she was going through massive domestic violence with my
dad at one point, very very seriously, we're talking like hospitalization.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Bernie witnessed his dad's violence at a young age.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
I do remember one time we'll go into the kitchen
and he had her up by a knife. I actually
still remember to this day the layout of the room.
I remember it very very vividly. She would be the
punching bag to make sure that we were never harmed.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
His mom was a pillar of strength.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
My mother. Everything I do and the person that I
am now is because of who she was and what
she showed me.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
What Bernie remembers most about his mom was how she
always made everyone feel at home.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
She was always very house proud, always cleaning. When I
hit school, my friends would come over to see her.
She was very much an open door. The door was
never locked, which was probably unsafe, but anyone knocked on
the door, anyone who needed help, regardless of whether she
had it or not, it would always be it yes,

(02:58):
and she was very very well known for that.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
When Bernie came out as gay, my.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Family were lovely with I was very, very very lucky
that enabled me to actually be proud and celebrate it.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
He began to explore the queer scene in London.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
When you first come out as being gay, you've got
the big clubs, you know, the Jyre Storia, which has
closed down now. I spent many a happy even in there.
Shall we say.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Bernie was living his best life. It was a fun
and exciting time, but deep down he was looking for
real partnership.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
I really wanted to find somebody to settle down with.
I just wanted that one on one connection. I don't
remember actually witnessing a stable relationship, and I think that's
why I so desperately needed one.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
At age eighteen, Bernie found what he was looking for.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
I met my first real boyfriend at the time in London.
We moved to Newcastle, we bought a house, we had
two dogs and two cars, and we had that life.
I must have been twenty two twenty three, and it
wasn't legal in the UK to get married at that point,

(04:23):
so what we did we threw a party and we
legally changed our names, so we kind of had our
little version of a wedding and it was just going amazingly.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
He had everything he wanted and it was great for
about eight years, but.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Then it just didn't work. When that failed. We were
actually very close friends for about ten years after I
was best man at his wedding.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
After their relationship ended, Bernie's mother's health started to decline.
At the age of forty six, she died of heart failure.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
We had that time to say goodbye, which rarely do
people get. I could actually process it there and then,
and we both said what we felt and you know
what she wanted from us in life.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Now Bernie felt truly out on his own. He was
newly single and starting over in this city.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
I was in London. Of course I had flings and
you know all of them that come with it. But
every single time I would never see somebody or sleep
with somebody and instantly just disregard. There would always be
an element of could disco further.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
He was a romantic, but Bernie knew he had to
prioritize himself and his career. After years of working in retail,
Bernie wanted to start a brand of his own, so
he started saving everything he could to start his own
clothing brand.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
I've never never had money at all, but I've always
worked very very hard for the money that I do have.
I've always wanted to work for myself, not answer to anyone.
So I started a clothing T shirt business, like my
own prints and selling them online. And I was like,
it's my time. Let me build something that's my own.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Even though Bernie was working a lot, he still wanted
to have a good time.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
I don't need the relationship at the minute, but you know,
you need the physical side of it.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
So he went on Grinder, the dating app for gay men.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
So I was using it happily. I'd actually met some
quite good friends. Now. I actually do still remember the
message come through because I had a glass of wine
and I was sat with a glass of wine and
I got the famous I remember that there was something intriguing.
It was very well written and not the usual first

(06:54):
opening message that you get on that kind of app.
In a forward. Do you know a nice breath, fresh air.
There's nothing on her. I'll just entertain it.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
His name was Leo, and Bernie had never seen him
on the app.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
Before, I've not seen you around here before, and it
was like, no, I live in central London by Hyde Park,
just around the corner from Harrod to this, that and
the other. Instantly I was like, well hold on there
like twenty million pounds.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Bernie didn't know anyone with a house in Hyde Park.
That was a completely different world.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Bearing in mind it's grinder. You instantly just think, okay,
all right, this fictional whatever, so you entertain and I
was like, oh, lovely fine.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Leo was quick to ask him on a date.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
He was like, I'm not big talking on these apps.
I'm around the corner. Why didn't you come over? Nothing untoward.
He was like, just you know, let me cook you
some dinner and we'll just have a glass of wine.
And I then was like, oh, this is very sweet.
He's very well spoke.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
In addition to his apartment in London, Leo also had
a luxury trailer, an airstream that he kept at a
high end campground.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
They've got their own unique gardens and plots and all
of these it's beautiful. So I was like, okay, this
is nice.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
And there's this.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Big, beautiful white range Rover that was sat next to it.
He was very articulate, and he did speak Queen's English.
It's very smooth, that pronounces every word as intended by
her Majesty, the Queen. I was like, oh my god,

(08:38):
I need to like you know, I need to up
it a notch.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
Leo made a delicious dinner.

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Instantly I was taken in just his charm. I've never
met anybody with that smooth charm that isn't patronizing. It
just was focused on me and we had an amazing meal.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Bernie was really enjoying himself. He liked talking to Leo
and they bonded over cars.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
He went through his picture gallery and he had all
of these cars. We had the Bentley's, we had Aston Martin's,
we had quite a few range Rovers, some old classics,
and he was just flicking through and he was like,
this is my pride and joy I love cars and
this and the other.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
The pictures also showed that Leo had serious money, a
lot of it.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
You can kind of tell where somebody's got old money
or new money. New money is very much the designer
head to toe, and all of this old money is
you can't really tell if they've got money they're the chinos,
the nice shirt, the neck tie, that kind and that's
how he was.

Speaker 1 (09:51):
But Bernie didn't understand why he asked him to come
to his trailer instead of his London apartment.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
At that point, he just said he was from a
very influential family within the UK and because of his family,
he can't be out, he can't be gay, so to
escape all of the craziness, he needs somewhere to get away.
And he said nobody knows about this caravan, like his
family don't know, security doesn't know. So for him, it's

(10:21):
just his little getaway to just be himself. So I
was like, okay, fine, but at that point I didn't
know who his family was.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Bernie ended up staying and hanging out with Leo for hours.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
It got dark, it must have been around about eleven
to twelve o'clock at night. It was like, oh, let's
go inside, let's go in the caravan, and we sat
in the sofa area and just had a conversation where
there's something very weird that happened. It was like, jumned,
if I ask you to do something, can you just
undress in front of me. I won't touch I won't

(10:58):
do anything like that buried in wait. I probably had
a bottle of wine. So I did and I got
naked and he didn't and it was like just turn
around for me and that was it. And I was like, okay,
you can get dressed now. I was like, what was
all that about. It was just like I've not been
with many men, so I'm a little bit nervous. Instantly,

(11:23):
I was like, oh, that's so sweet.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
They kissed good night and Bernie got a taxi home.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Next morning, I woke up and of course there was
the most beautiful message that was on my phone and
he was like, look, I really want to see you again.
I can't get you out of my mind, this and
the other, and we just had normal conversation through the day.
I just started feeling a bit warm. I was just like,
is this really happening.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
They decided on a second date.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
So again I went over. We had something to eat.
The conversation was effortless, the subjects, it was just it
was so smooth. It was as if I'd known him
for years. It was so easy. And then we started
kissing and this, that and the other, and then he

(12:17):
I remember he started coughing and I was like oh,
is everything okay? And it was like, yeah, it's fine.
I'm just I'm very, very nervous. So I was like, listen,
let's just sit, take it slow, and you know, see
where we go. Nothing has to happen. And then we
went back to it and with things were happening, and

(12:40):
then he kind of had a coughing fit and he
actually got really serious that. I was like, I'll get
you a glass of water. I got in a glass
of water and he would not stop coughing. So I
was like, I'm just going to step outside because by
this point he was bringing things up. It was not
romantic at all. And I was outside for about about

(13:02):
ten minutes and all you could hear was this hacking up.
And at that point I stood there and I was
like what do I do? Do I go do? I
just like leave? But then my car keys are in there.
This is really awkward. So then he called me back
in and we had this conversation and he just apologized,
and that's when he said that he's got a few
health issues and it's like he's getting them checked up

(13:25):
and it's nothing too serious to worry about at the minute.
And he was like so apologetic I was like, honestly,
it's fine, let's just watch something. Calm down. I was like,
it's generally not a big deal.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
After Leo recovered from his coughing that Bernie stayed and
they ended up having a really lovely evening.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
We had a few dates at that point. It was like,
can I come to yours? So I was like, do
you know what, Yes, come to mine. I will cook
us a nice meal. And then that's the first time
that he came round and he brought the Bentley. This
Bentley Continental white thing pulled up and I was like,

(14:10):
what the hell is this.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Bernie had seen the pictures of Leo's cars, but he
was skeptical that Leo really owned all of them.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
All the way up until that point, and that was
a few weeks in. I took everything with a pinch
of salt. And then I think that was the first
time when the Bentley pulled up, I'm like, but hold on,
if this is true.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
The Bentley was impressive.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
I'd never even been close to a Bentley jorna ride,
so I was like, yes, I was like, come on.
So I got in and we went for a drive,
and oh my god, it goes fast. Beautiful car.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Later that night, when they were deep in conversation.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
It slipped in and I was like, oh, I've got
to go down to the Castle today for whatever event
I have to. I'm being dragged down and I was
like Castle, what's this? And he was like, oh, do
you know what? I think? I need to tell you
a little bit about my family history.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Bernie was really enjoying getting to know Leo, a guy
he met on Grinder. He knew Leo came from money,
and after a few dates, he confided in Bernie about
his family's backstory.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
So we sat down and he was like, right, he
doesn't believe in NDA, so he's not going to ask
for one of them. And I was just like, what
the hell is going on here?

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Like what is happening a non disclosure agreement? Bernie wasn't following,
but then.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
He opened up with do you know who the Norfolks are?
And I said no, I have no idea who that is.
So then he went through the family history. So it
was like, my dad's brother is the Duke of Norfolk.
I didn't know who that was. He was like, the
Duke of Norfolk is the highest peerage in the UK
outside of the royal family, so it's literally the royal

(16:17):
family then the estate of the Duke of Norfolk. They're
bloodline royals, they're just not direct in line to the front. Obviously.
I had a little look on Google and you can
see on his profile who the Duke of Norfolk and
the immense responsibility that he has within Britain. So I
was like, okay, fine, so that's your dad's brother. He

(16:40):
was like yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
And Leo's title.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
He was Viscount Norfolk.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
The second and the castle he'd mentioned offhand was a
Rundel Castle, a thousand year old architectural masterpiece in the
south of England.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
And it was like, let me show you something, because
at that point he'd brung an over andy bag and
he had this cartier box, quite slim, and opened it.
It was a crest with flower spikes all around. It
was a circular shape with the Saint George's cross in

(17:16):
the middle, then had some inscriptions on it and it
had the House of Norfolk and fitz Allen, and he said,
we have to carry this everywhere we go, badges and
emblems and crests, because if somebody passes they need it
instantly for a sign of respect and all this. I
held it. It was so heavy and I was just like,
what is going on in my life? Ride this minute

(17:38):
in time? You know, I've got somebody here that is
amazing and like so into me. But at the same time,
also with the Bentley out front and I'm sitting here
holding this big royal crest.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
Bernie couldn't wrap his mind around it.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
And I was like, I don't know what to say.
And it was like, it's fine, It's like, just ask
any questions that you have, and I was like, I
literally don't have questions, Like my mind is blank.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
This was really big. Leo came from a very important
and complicated world. Bernie didn't know what it would mean
for his relationship with Leo.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
He was like, I want to keep us separate. You
know that I have to do this with you. I
want to do and he was like, until we figure
out how or if we can mix this, let's just
try it. So I was like, look, I'm fine with that.
I'm not here and I never have been impressed by money. Obviously,
I'm impressed by the Bentley, but I'm not here for

(18:47):
anything other than you.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
This was a pivotal moment the conversation deepened their connection.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
That was then the first day that he had opened
up and he trusted me. He trusted me with this
secret and his family and his line. I think that
was the first time that I was like, yeah, he
really likes me.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
Leo let Bernie into his inner circle, but he made
it clear privacy and discretion was critical.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
The first few months after that, it was amazing. He
really genuinely wanted to see me happy and to take
care of me.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
Bernie and Leo were spending more and more time with
each other.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
He pretty much moved in. I think that was about
a month and a half in. I gave McKey and
I literally just said, you know, use it whenever you want.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Leo never missed a moment to make Bernie feel loved.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
If I was on a late shift, I would finish
ten eleven o'clock at night, and then he would be
there with dinner with flowers. At that minute in time,
I had felt the happiest, settled and loved. Then I
would probably say bar my mom than I had ever

(20:09):
felt in my life.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Even though Leo came from a wealthy background, he worked
hard and had a career. He was passionate about.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
He knew about watches. He was a horologist. He had
been to Switzerland, studied at the best places. He absolutely
knew everything. He had space to do a little studio.
He was taking all of these Rolexes apart and in
front of me putting them back together. And then he
was like, I'm licensed by Rolex to do that.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
It was a very competitive certification. But luxury watches were
Leo's life.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
He always had Rolex flip on his arm.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Within a few months, they were spending almost every night together.
They were exclusive. Bernie was starting to think that Leo
could be the one. There was only one big concern,
and that was Leo's health. It was there from the beginning,
but Bernie was seeing his symptoms worsen. Leo wasn't just coughing,

(21:11):
he was now throwing up.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
He went silent for I want to say two days. Now.
By that point, please realize that two days, when I
am now fully into this, fully into the emotion, is
like two weeks.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
During those two days, Bernie was desperate to hear from Leo.
While he waited, his mind began to spin.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
What have I done? Have I said something? I went
back through WhatsApps and this is only two days of
no conversation. I went through WhatsApps to find out what
I've said that he could possibly take offense with anyway.
He eventually came back and basically apologized for not being
in contact with me over the two days.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Leo had a good reason for being out of touch.
He'd been in the hospital.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
He was like, I can't say anything over for the phone,
but I just need to get out of London. My
family going into a panic and trying to keep this maintained,
you know, make sure that it doesn't go to any press.
He was like, can I just come to yourselves? Like absolutely.
At that point, he told me that he was suffering
from brain cancer and they've given him a year to live,

(22:29):
and obviously he had a lot of process and that
he needed to do.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Bernie was devastated. He wanted to be there for Leo
any way he could.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
I'm just going to sit here and be quiet. You
talk to me, you vent me, you get your frustrations out,
anything that is in your mind. I was like, you
literally throw them at me. This is what I'm here
to do. And he did, and he got upset, He
got angry. He was crying and then he got to
the US conversation and he said, I can't really see

(23:02):
you anymore.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Leo didn't want to be a burden.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
He was like, look, I can't promise you anything. If
this is how my life is going to end, there's
bits that may not be pretty. And I was like, look,
I really don't care. I was like, if I have
to be a complete secret, even if we have to
break up, just I want to be your friend. It
wasn't about any of the sex or the relationship for me.
It was this person that was in front of me.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
To Bernie's surprise, Leo even brought up as well.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
He was like, obviously he can't change that because if
he put my name in there, they all questions will
come up with who. And I was like, I really
do not care. I was like, I literally do not
care about any of that. I was like, if you
get to that point, I will be here as much
as you need me to.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Leo couldn't come out to his family, so in order
for Bernie to stay in his life, he suggested Bernie
pretend to be his assistant or driver. It was the
kind of arrangement Bernie wouldn't have agreed to under normal circumstances,
but he was willing to do anything to make sure
he could care for Leo.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
So he agreed, and I meant it one hundred percent,
not a second guess in my mind.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
So Bernie immediately focused on helping Leo make sense of
his diagnosis.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
I went online. I researched the hell out of it,
down to all different methods, and I mean I did
go crazy with it, to be honest. I was there
for at least an entire twenty four hours googling research
and what this meant, experimental drugs, and like, I just
went to town with everything that I could find out.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
But Leo had already accepted that he didn't have much
time left.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
He was talking about that he might not actually go
for chemo because he just wants to just end it
on his terms in Switzerland. That was a conversation that
we had. And then that's when we went onto a
conversation about I think I need to start living my
life while I've got it, and I was like, right, okay,
so let's do that.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
For Leo, living his life to the fullest meant finally
launching his own watch restoration business that would be his legacy.
He had a collection of incredible luxury watches and he
couldn't take them with him.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
One day he said to me, I've got all of
these watches, I might just start selling them because I
kind of like swap in a buy and trade on
this site. And it's like I kind of want to
build something. So instantly I kicked in. I was like,
I can build you a website. Let's register this company,
and I did. We had quite a few business meetings
on how the logo is going to look, what it's called,

(25:41):
setting up all of the social media for it. And
I sat on my little photoshop and I'd done the
logo and the company was called The Vintage Crown.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Leo wanted Bernie to list all of his watches and
post them online, so he brought his entire collection to
Bernie's house.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
We came up and he literally had about two three
trunks of watches. I mean, I've got all the pictures
on my phone. Still. There was countless rolelexes, there was
the tet Feliks, there was Van Kleef and arpoles. They
were stunning. There must have been i'd say close to

(26:20):
one hundred one hundred watches in my lounge on this
table and there was this very very old Rolex. The glass,
the watch face was quite rounded.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Bernie picked up the watch. It was heavy and ornate.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
It was like, this is probably the most expensive watch
that I own. And I was like, well, how much
is it worth? It was like you check it out,
So it's like, go on the Rolex website, turned the
watch over. I typed in the cerial number and it
came in at one point two million. At that point,
I probably had aboute hundred pounds in my bank account,
so I'm like one point two million. It was just

(26:59):
in to think of the money that was sat right
in front of me.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Leo had a staggering collection of luxury watches, and as
Bernie helped Leo launch his new watch business, Bernie got
a taste of that world. Like when Bernie came with
him to run errands at high end London department stores, and.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Whenever we walked into Harold's, they knew of him. They
addressed him by his name, talking about previous purchases that
he had made, and full conversations.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
He even asked Bernie to go to Selfridges, another luxury
department store in London, for an exclusive event.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
It's a private party of VIP, but it would be
quite nice if you can come with me just to
experience a bit of that lifestyle. And I was like, oh,
like absolutely, yeah, I'll come out. So we got dressed,
made our way into central London, walk into Selfridges and
it was red carpet all of that.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
This event was a big deal and Leo was a
big deal there. Everyone greeted him by name and immediately
people were vying for his attention.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
So he went into this private VIP area through the door.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Leo was there to look at a specific.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Watch, and then he sent me a message and was like, Okay,
we're kind of done with the finance side, do you
want to come in? So I was like absolutely, So
I went in and it was a private room with
a head of European sales. The room was gorgeous. We
had or derves that were laid out and the watches
were laid out in front of me. These ridiculous I
mean the price of a house, these watches in front

(28:55):
of us, and it was just this woman, Leo and me.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Leo bought two watches that day as gifts for family members.
With Bernie's help, Leo's watch business got off the ground,
and as a thank you, he would let Bernie borrow
some of the pieces.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
If we'd go for dinner, he'd give me a Rolex
or a Fotech Philippin. He then called one day and
he said, this Rolex has come my way for me
to recondition and to sell. It's just a Sa Mariner.
I've got quite a few of them anyway. But he
was like, I thought of you.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Leo was making him an offer.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
He was like, look, you buy it off of me
for twenty thousand. I will recondition it, I'll make it
look as good as new, i will polish it, I
will have it back up and it's usually worth about
thirty to forty thousand.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Twenty grand up front. It would be a huge investment
for Bernie, and then Leo would resell it at a
profit of at least ten thousand pounds.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Of course, it would be amazing. That extra ten ground
for me at this minute in time would open up doors.
I've never had just a ten thousand pound sum in
my account.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
But Bernie didn't have twenty thousand pounds just lying around.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
And I was all right. I was like at the
first I just don't have anywhere near that money whatsoever. Literally,
I think for my entire life it's been paycheck to paycheck.
I'm just very clever with it. Nowhere do I have
that kind of money.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Leo had an idea, what about Bernie's clothing business. It
wasn't as successful as the watch sales, so.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
He said, well the clothes was like, you know, it's
taking too much of your time. Is it really doing anything?
And I was like, it's getting a bit tiring, And
so I said, look, why don't you just sell sell
all of the clothes just in bulk. Somebody will buy it,
sell it, sell the website off, like, sell the business,
get this watch, and then use that lump sum for

(30:56):
how whatever you want to do your next project.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Bernie had a few ideas for new businesses. He wanted
to start. The investment in the watch represented a new chapter.
So he started crunching the numbers.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
I was like, look, I can take this money out
of all of my credit cards. But if I do
that with my bills my wage in retail will it
won't even cover half of all them repayments in one
go by maxing out them cars. So he said, look,
once I've got the money, it will take about a
week for the watch to get here, so I will

(31:32):
recondition it, I'll get it sent to you. You'll sell
it before you next get paid if I get it.
But I'd never do anything to hurt you. This is
for your benefit. Look, if it's too much, then you
know what, Let's just not do it. Let's just just
forget about it completely. And by that point I was like,
I'd already kind of imagined if I sell all of
this stuff and I take from these credit cards, by

(31:54):
the end of it, I could have ten to twenty pounds,
which is just mine to do with. I was like, right, okay,
I trust him one hundred percent. Let's just do this.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
Bernie was in so.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
I sold the website off and then I think that
only got about half of it, maybe a little bit more.
And then I did have a few credit cards, so
I got rid of the final bits of the clothes,
took out from every credit card that I had, maxed
it out, and gave it him.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
Bernie got fifteen thousand pounds from maxed out credit cards.
For the rest of the money, he took out an
incredibly high interest loan.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
These payday loans, the interest rate is seventy nine percent
per month, and that's more than what you've borrowed.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Bernie was putting everything on the line. He sent Leo
the twenty thousand and Leo ordered the watch.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
It'd been delivered to his Hyde Park address.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
But it was the week of Christmas and Leo wasn't home.
He was at the castle.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
He has responsibilities around the UK, so he was up
there doing official business and he will get to it.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
With the holidays. It could be a week before Leo
got to the watch. That meant weeks before they could
resell it.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
That's when I started panicking because at that point there
is absolutely no way that I am going to be
able to cover that next payment. And I told him
that I am getting nervous because I know the tsunami
that's coming if this isn't paid.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
But Leo was calm. He handled deals like this all
the time.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
He just kept reassuring me, saying, look, there's a little
bit of a delay. I've got a buyer. I've got
somebody that's interested. As soon as I can get my
hands down to this watch. It will take me one
day to recondition it because it's in very good quality,
and I will literally have a buyer for you. Within
twenty four hours.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
After that, Leo seemed to change. The loving calls and
texts started dwindling.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
The communication with me and him went very sparse. The
morning messages, which by this point had constantly continued. If
I had even to the point if he was staying
at mine and I woke up before in the morning
to go to work, when he woke up, I would
still get that morning message.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
And now those texts stopped coming. Their connections started to
feel less like a romantic relationship and more like a
business partnership.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
It went from loving and just amazing conversations to all
about the watch.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
For Bernie, this cold shoulder really hurt. Obviously he was
concerned about the watch, but that wasn't what he really
cared about.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
I am fully in depth, I am fully in love
with him.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
In seven months, Leo had become the center point of
his life.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
He was my world at that point, and there was
nothing else that I was concentrated on. I'd stopped talking
to my friends, even my best friend. I'd stopped talking
to my family, and all of a sudden, this person
is completely disregarding me. I was panicking. Then I was
then going back to that state, what have I done?

(35:25):
What have I said? I know it's Christmas. I don't
want to contact him too much because I know that
he's working and he's probably with people with his family.
But at the same time, I'm panicking because I'm not
getting that response. Then comes Christmas Eve and he's kind
of goes silent a little bit, and then I get
Christmas Eve. I get a few messages, very cold, and

(35:50):
it was like, I'm with people, I can't talk. I
was like, okay, I just wanted to wish you a
merry Christmas.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
It was important for Leo to spend time with his
family because he had so little time left. Maybe the
reality of his diagnosis was finally hitting him. Bernie understood
why Leo might be pulling away, but it's still stung.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Next morning, I did actually get quite a nice message.
It's just like Merry Christmas, handsome and blah blah blah
blah blah. I instantly my mood. I was uplifted. I
was like, oh, it's okay, what's your plans for today?
It was I went straight into that puppy mode like

(36:34):
he could do no wrong, and he said, I'm with
my family all day. I won't be able to contact
you for the next two days. I was like, okay,
that's absolutely fine. I get it. It's Christmas, you are
supposed to spend that with your family.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Bernie spent that Christmas alone waiting for a message from Leo.
But that day Bernie noticed something strange. It seemed like
Leo was actually spending Christmas Day with another man, someone
Bernie had never seen before.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
There was a picture on his WhatsApp update and it
was him, but there was somebody else in the background.
There was this guy just walking towards the camera, looking
directly in the camera as if he was going to
say something, and it was the inside of a church,
and it just bucked me.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
For a few days, Bernie stared at the photo, practically
memorizing every detail.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Anyway, so on the twenty seventh feet message, I was like, sorry,
I've not been I've been with family this and the other.
I was like, okay, how was your Christmas? To check
up so much? And he was like no, we just
really stayed around the castle and then we didn't really
do anything. I was like, oh, what about the church?
I was like, what church? And then it was just
like I was like, oh, I just saw your update
on your WhatsApp and it was a picture of a church.

(37:53):
And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.
You didn't see anything.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
But Bernie had looked at the photo over and over.
He knew what he saw, and.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
I was like, no, it was I didn't do an update.
That was no update. And then he got into such
denial he was adamant and quite nasty with it that
I completely made it up. I did not see it.
There was nothing on his profile.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
It was the first time Leo had acted like this.
He was defensive and angry over something so small. He
knew it meant Leo might be hiding something. So Bernie
pulled back a bit.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
I kind of slowed down message in him. I didn't
get a call again quite late at night, and it's
like I've just had a massive argument with my family.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
On the other end of the phone, Leo was hysterical.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
And he's like, Bernie, I can't take this. I can't
take this life anymore, the stress that I've been under.
I just don't like my family. I don't want to
do this anymore. Can you come and get me? So,
of course I've then said yes instantly, where are you
calm down, stay on the phone with me.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Leo sent an address. It was a five hour drive
from London, so Bernie got in the car and stayed
on the phone with Leo while he drove through the
night to meet him. At two am, he picked up
Leo and brought them to a hotel.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
We stayed the night. We had a long conversation about
his stress levels, and he's sorry that he's been distant
and he doesn't how to cope with this, as well
as his diagnosis. And at the end of this he'll
get the watch. He's going to go down, he'll get it,
and if he hasn't got it by this point, he
will give me the money and then sell it on himself.
And I just felt seeing and he was in tears.

(39:42):
He went asleep and I was stroking his hair. It
was as if this guy was broken, broken with life.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
There in the hotel room, Bernie finally fell close to
Leo again. Leo needed him, and Bernie would do anything
to make him happy. The next morning, Leo seemed renewed,
back to his old self. He confessed to Bernie that
he had been hiding something. Now he was finally ready

(40:14):
to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
It's like, so, I've got a serious question that I
need to ask you, and I've been thinking about this
with everything that's been going on. And I was like okay,
and he was like, I've had enough of this entire
life that I have to do and I'm done with it.
I want to move away. And he was like, I

(40:35):
want to move somewhere in Scotland. Would you come with me?
And I was like sorry, I was like what. I
was like, I've seen this house. I've been thinking about
this for a long time and I was going to
go on my own and that's why I've been distant
because I didn't know what I was going to do.
But I want you to come with me.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Leo was dead serious. He was ready to put in
an offer on a house because.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
I've already contacted the estate agent. This house was a
full on castle in the Scottish Islands. When you think
the quintessential English castle, it was exactly that.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
They looked at the listing together and started imagining a
new life there. They wouldn't have to hide from Leo's
family or the press. Bernie could take care of Leo
as his cancer progressed and whatever came next, they could
face it together.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
It's like, I just wanted to be me and you
and I was like yes. And it's difficult now to
really kind of explain exactly how it felt, because his
world at certain points starts to crumble and he has

(41:53):
to get what he can do and run to create
another life for himself. In the end, it was all
a life.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Leo had been looking to buy a castle in the
Scottish countryside where he could live out the rest of
his life the way he wanted to with Bernie.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
And he was like, I want to put an offer
in and move within the month. I'm just done with
all of this. I'm like, do you know what, We've
got one life, Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Leo drove them back to London. It was a five
hour drive and they spent every minute of it planning
their new life.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
We had designed this entire life, down to the jobs
we would do, the businesses we would build.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
On their drive, Leo's grandparents called. They were nearby, so
Leo decided to meet up with them and spend the
rest of the day with his grandparents. Bernie could drive
the Bentley back to London, so halfway through their trip,
Leo pulled off at a gas station where his grandparents
were waiting. It was the first time Bernie had seen

(43:28):
anyone in Leo's family. Leo asked Bernie to act like
they were just friends.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
He went over to this couple they must have been
in their late sixties, and his granddad went to go
to the bathroom. So I was like, okay, I need
to toilet anyway, So I was like, I'll go, and
then I went in and then he came in after me,
so I was like okay.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
On the way out of the bathroom, Bernie struck up
a conversation with Leo's granddad and.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
He was like, oh, well, we live in sus That's
where the castle was.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
They chatted about life in Sussex, then headed back to
their cars. Leo went with his grandparents and Bernie drove
alone back to London. Bernie was excited about starting his
new life in Scotland, but his financial stress about the
watch was mounting. It wouldn't be ready to resell in
time for Bernie's next loan payment.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
I'm panicking now. I'd missed one direct debit. February's was
coming up, and it still was not happening.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
As the weeks went on, Bernie kept asking his boyfriend
for an update on the watch.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
The watch is being almost dangled. It's like, oh, I'll
bring it up, can I I'll come up to yours.
I was like, okay, fine, I'll bring the watch up.
He'd get to the house. No watch, Oh I forgot it.
I didn't go home yet. For whatever reason, the watch
would always either be forgotten or once the cleaner accidentally

(44:55):
moved it and it was lost in the house somewhere,
so he needs to go back and look for it.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
It was getting absurd that Leo couldn't get the watch
sorted out. Sure there was a lot happening in Leo's life,
but waiting this long was affecting Bernie's.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
There was something inside that I was questioning a lot more,
but I was still hooked. I still agreed to go
to Scotland with him.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
Just weeks before, Leo had needed Bernie to drive through
the night to be there for him. Leo showed him
the house he was putting an offer on. Now Bernie
wasn't even getting a text or a call back for days.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
The gas lighting started. We'd have this call, for instance,
and what are you doing today. Let's have a call tonight. Yeah, okay,
And then we'd have a call arrange something, and then
he would be like, we didn't arrange it. I was like,
well we did, because you know, I put it here,
I put it in my diary. I put it. No,
we didn't have that conversation.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
Bernie knew that Leo isolated when he was stressed about
his cancer or his family. Bernie wondered if things had
gotten worse, but all the worrying was starting to take
a toll on his own health.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
End of January, February and beginning of March was and
still is, to a degree a blur. I got into
the worst state of mind. I had to take time
off of work for depression. I got massively depressed. I
lost so much weight I didn't eat.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Bernie knew something was wrong, and he started spiraling.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Of course, like anyone, I went straight into his seeing
somebody else mode, somebody else is on the scene, and
I went into that whole whirlwind. I did then do
something cheap because I was like, I can't do this normal,
I literally cannot do this anymore.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
With Leo across the country, Bernie got an idea.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
Do you know what, I think? I should download Grinder again.
And with Grinder you can change location and search for
profiles within that location.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
So Bernie created a fake Grinder profile and set it
to Leo's location.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Now I knew his type, so I found a decent
looking ginger guy, put that on my profile, and I
spent a good day at the location looking through profiles
that didn't have pictures on Lo and behold, he found
my profile.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Leo sent the first message, so we're just talking.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
I'm like, what do you do is I'm a horologist,
you know, I deal with watches, And he went straight
into you and I'm a part of the Howard family,
and then he sent me pictures it was him.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
At the same time, Leo was talking to fake Bernie
on Grinder, he was avoiding real Bernie's texts.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
He would reply to this person for literally about an hour,
but I'm getting no reply. So I'm like, do you
know what I'm done? Now? That's it. I need to
get this watch and I need to get it soon.
So I did actually confront him with it, and I
was like, I know you've been speaking to people, and

(48:16):
I sent him a screenshot of the profile, and of
course he was like, how dare you try putting it
on me? And I was like, I didn't do anything,
and I was like, you have no right and went
off on one and I'm like, do you know what,
it's absolutely fine, just give me the watch. That's when
he turned nasty. I was like, you're not getting the watch.
You don't deserve the watch.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Regardless of Leo's royal status or cancer diagnosis. Bernie wasn't
going to allow someone to speak to him that way.
He hung up. Then Leo started blowing up his phone.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
You know, I really love you and all of this,
and what about Scotland.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Bernie told him he wasn't coming to Scotland. Their relationship
was over. The only thing he wanted from Leo was
the watch.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
So he's like, look, I'm going to bring the watch.
It's finally ready. I was like, oh my god, I'm
actually going to get this watch now, and he was like,
I'm going to bring it down.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
They set a time and place to meet.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
He was like, are you're going to be okay seeing me?
You know it may be a strain, and I'm like, listen,
I'm sure I'm going to be fine. I just just
make sure you bring the watch turns up. No watch.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
That was the last time they ever spoke.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
I said enough is enough. I'm worth more than this,
and I blocked his number. I had just been like,
I'm never getting that watch. I need to deal with
what I can, and this is the position that I'm in.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Bernie says he was a shell of himself. Over the
course of nine months, his entire life had been rearranged.
All of his savings were gone, he had taken out
loans and maxed out every credit card he had. It
left Bernie in a dark place.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
My best friends literally descended on my house and were like,
we've never seen you like this, and we need to
pick it up. If I didn't have my friends around
me at the time, I don't know if I would
actually be here to this day. I genuinely, genuinely.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Believe that Bernie's friend supported him emotionally, but he was
facing his financial crisis alone.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
I had to just bow and say I can't afford it. Default,
and my credit score at one point went from the
highest it had ever been straight down to zero. I'd
never even seen zero on a credit score before I

(50:46):
was working in retail, and I had all this debt,
and the debts that were coming out on a monthly
basis because of everything that happened was higher than my
entire pay let alone, when you take away bills and
utilities and all of that.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Bernie was overwhelmed with shame. He was at risk of
getting his car repossessed or his wages garnished. He was
able to make a payment plan, but in the meantime
he had very little money to live on.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
He didn't take an obscene amount of money from me
monetary wise, but what he did do was absolutely wipe
me out. At one point, I didn't have the money
to go to the shop to buy food. The monetary
amount for me, twenty thousand could have easily been five million.

(51:39):
It was all that I had to my name to survive.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Twenty thousand pounds was a drop in the bucket for Leo,
after all, his family lived in a historic castle, he
drove a Bentley. But twenty thousand pounds was everything to Bernie,
and Leo knew that.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
I've reminded him time and again. He knew exactly what
my financial background was, what my current financial situation was.
He knew about all of that, but he still pushed
to take them credit cards. He knew all of that
was coming, and I reminded him many times every single day,

(52:19):
almost that this is hitting. He absolutely did not care.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
Slowly, Bernie came to terms with his financial reality. He
continued leaning on his friends for emotional support. That's when
one of his friends said something he hadn't considered before.
This was theft he'd been robbed.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
She was like, he's going to carry on doing it
to other people until somebody actually puts the stop to it.
At that point, I decided that actually I will contact
the police because this isn't right.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Bernie walked into the police station and filed a report.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
They did take it so seriously. I gave everything I
had to them, and they had absolutely no idea who
this person was.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
According to the police database, Leo Howard didn't exist.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
I emailed Arundel Castle, which is the official residence of
the Duke of Norfolk, and there was absolutely no record
of Leo Howard, Leo Bose Howard, or absolutely anything. So
then I started doing my own research, but there was
absolutely no trace.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Bernie knew the VIN numbers to Leo's range, Rover and Bentley.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
All of the car registration numbers had completely been erased,
which is very hard to do. I don't know how
that's possible.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
The VIN numbers weren't listed on any database. It was
like the cars never existed. But Bernie remembered riding in
those cars, driving those cars. It was all so he
was starting to wonder what was even real.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
It was as if I had completely imagined the entire year,
completely imagined it, because this person just did not exist.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Leo had vanished into thin air. Even the police had
hit a dead end.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
The police could not recognize his picture. They had to
just close the investigation. It must have been a good
year later and I get a call when it comes
up and it's the police officer that was originally dealing
with the case. Then I answered, and there was a
nice of tears, you know, how are you? And then

(54:43):
he said, do you watch Channel four? And I said,
to be honest, no, And he said, right, okay, there's
this documentary that's just been shown on Channel four, and
from that I've been given a case. And he said,
and everything that's been described in the case and on

(55:04):
the documentary is almost identical to my story.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
Bernie had no idea that across the country. Other people
had been reporting a very similar crime to the police.
A broader case was developing. In fact, the story was
already out as a true crime documentary. It was about
a prolific and highly manipulative scam artist operating all over
the UK. The detective calling wanted to know if Bernie

(55:32):
recognized the man at the center of it.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
He said, can you just google and have a look.
As soon as he said that, I had that sinking feeling.
My heart dropped to the ground. I knew it would
be him. My hands started shaking and my brain went

(55:55):
completely dead on just how to google something by manager.
I got there and it was his face.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
A year after Bernie first went to the police, he
got a call from a detective. They'd linked his report
to a serial fraudster, someone who'd been conning men and
women across the UK with the same mix of charm,
money and elaborate lies.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
There was a lot of press around it, and I
broke down. I absolutely broke down in tears.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
The story had exploded. Leo's face was all over the news.
After Bernie got over the initial shock, a new feeling
flooded him.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
The wave of relief. Now I have proof that it happens.
Because bear in mind, at that point, the only person
who had ever met him was my best friend. We
went out for one night. Apart from that, he didn't
want to meet anyone. He didn't want to be photographed
anyone that I told this story to. There was always,

(57:19):
i'm sure, an element of doubt because it was so
extraordinary to happen to me or to anyone. When I
saw this, it was that feeling, that overwhelming, almost joyous
feeling of I told you this did happen.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
There were dozens of articles. Bernie clicked on one about
a woman who discovered her fiance was a fraud. He
built a five year relationship in order to scam her
out of thirty thousand pounds.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
I read the article, and everything that happened to me,
it happened to her.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Bernie knew that the documentary might hold answers to as
many unanswered questions about Leo.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
We sat down and we watched it, and as soon
as I press play, it starts with his face again.
I got that sinking feeling. It was surreal scene.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
After seeing Bernie realized he'd lived the same exact moments
with the same con man. The luxury watch business, a scam,
the cancer diagnosis fake.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
I'm heightened at that point, and the Bentley came up,
and I was like, that's that was the Bentley and
the watch that I was handling, and the watch that
I was supposed to be buying was actually in the documentary,
just even little parts of the story. I was like, Yes,
he told me.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
That, even though it was someone else's story, it was
like watching his own true crime documentary. Andy learned Leo
had a dozen aliases.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
After the documentary, I did get emotional because I think
that then sunk in exactly the severity of what was happening.
I was just a number at that point. Straight Away
I found the woman in the documentary on social media

(59:30):
and connected, and I remember the first message was like,
you don't know me. I've just seen your documentary. And
I met him such and such date. She came back
and we had a few telephone conversations.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
They had so much in common. This other victim helped
Bernie fill in the gaps in his knowledge and piece
together a timeline. Most shocking of all, he learned.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
Three weeks before he had messaged me, he had actually
absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for fraud
and he was on the run when he met me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Looking back, this explained something about Leo's behavior, how he
was always nervous around the police.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
He never really liked the police. He was kind of
scared of the police, to the point he would wait
around the corney if there was police cars from driving past.
He was scared.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
When Bernie met Leo, he wasn't in that campground because
it was the only place he could be himself. He
was there because he was in hiding. Leo had escaped
while he was serving a five year prison sentence for
defrauding another victim, and there were many more. He had
victims across England.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
There was me and one other person in the north
of London. All the other victims were in the south
of England, in Kent in Sussex. The person that was
in the documentary was in the Isle of Wight when

(01:01:06):
he escaped from prison. He had then obviously traveled and
he was in hiding.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
What was so chilling to Bernie was that the.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Time the documentary was being filmed was when I was
with him.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
And Bernie wasn't the only person Leo was scamming while
he was on the run. Remember Leo's grandparents, who Bernie
met at the gas station.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
I told the police my story and I said, look,
I came into contact with his nana grandad. They're like, no,
that was another victim. I was like, wow, he was
doing exactly the same to them.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
If Leo stayed behind bars, many people wouldn't have been victimized.
He was a fugitive. The police were looking for him,
but the problem was the pose weren't as savvy as Leo.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
Now, we do have a national database which comes up,
but they didn't put him on that. So all the
time that I was with him, there were actually campaigns
to find this person. However, the police don't talk to
each other over here, and when I had raised my case,

(01:02:23):
they had no idea who it was until the documentary
came out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
That's when police stations across the country started connecting the dots.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Channel four had done so many press releases that it
really got the national scope, and I think we're on
about ten people that have come forward and raised a case.
Because of the heightened press and because all of this
was going around, he decided to hand himself in.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Leo was sent back to prison and Bernie hoped justice
would finally be served.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
But he still qualified for early release. The mind boggles.
But that's where we are, and that's what we have
to deal with, and that's what we are currently facing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
Through this whole process, Bernie was able to get a
true understanding of who this man really was. He even
heard from people who knew the real Leo before he
became a criminal.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
I've had so many messages over social media and TikTok
where people have gone to school with him, and he
used to make up stories to get people in trouble.
He naturally gravitated towards fraud from a very very early age.
His background is so far from the royal family it's unbelievable.

(01:03:51):
From my knowledge. He is Polish heritage, very broken upbringing,
and he, in all intents and purposes, created his own
system to survive. And his system was to fraudulently gain
money from anywhere he could to create the life that

(01:04:14):
he saw himself and that he wanted.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
And the life he wanted was one where he was wealthy,
powerful and important.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
He wanted to be part of the royal family setting
and he believed that he was destined for more. He
had created his own reality, and I think the longer
he believed it, the more he believed it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Creating a string of fraudulent identities was more than just
a dream of being rich. It was pathological.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Every time he created this persona this person, he threw
himself so hard into it that he then started to
believe that he was this person. And I do think
there's mental issues there.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
It's been three years since he met Leo, and Bernie
still questions Leo's true motivations.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Was his intention to outright going and commit fraud on
every single person that he encountered, or was it that
his world at certain points starts to crumble and he
has to get what he can do and run to
create another life for himself, that other life that he's

(01:05:38):
built up that is then crumbling.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
He got back to their first date when he was
asked to take off his clothes. Was that a test?
Was it blackmail?

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
I've tried going back and be like, what did happen?
Why did it happen? I have absolutely no idea, but
I know it comes down to control.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
After having his heart broken and his own financial stability destroyed,
Bernie learned who Leo truly was. He was left picking
up the pieces in the aftermath.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
I don't know whether this is still my subconscious emotional tie,
but I think there is an element that he had
gone through so much and then he met me, and
he had said many times that he was gay, he
just couldn't be out. And I do believe that there's

(01:06:53):
an element that I wasn't his typical target, and he
wasn't there initially for money, and I do believe at
some point he did get emotionally connected, because going after
me for money wouldn't have made any sense.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
Bernie still wonders if that dream of going to Scotland
together was a genuine offer to run away together.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
At some point, I do believe that he thought that
he could get away from it all and escape with
me and live that life that he had in his
mind at the time. And I think potentially once it
started getting a bit too real with me, that's when

(01:07:44):
he went into what I would call default mode. And
that's when the watch came. Because the watch conversation came
very very late in the day, and then it ended
very very quick because he had to have an new
supply and obviously he couldn't leave empty handed.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Bernie's right. Leo never left empty handed. In fact, he
was running a major fraud scheme and the watches were
at the center of it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
Some businesses have come forward and said that that person
had sold them a fake watch, and bear in mind
these are big companies. They know how to evaluate watches.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
As more information came out, he learned that Leo defrauded
Herod's department store out of a half a million pounds.
It was all part of Leo's scam.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
He was on top of his game with regards to
watches that he knew how to see a fake, a
very good fake, and improve it to the level that
it was a very convincing actual piece. He scammed a
million pounds out of Harold's Like, you are a different level,

(01:09:04):
a completely different level when you can do that. The
knowledge that Leo had on watches, watch brands, the mechanics,
the mechanical workings, There's no doubt in my mind he
has studied watches for a long time.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Leo also knew cars. He scammed Bentley dealerships and financial institutions.
He always had multiple scams going at once.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Absolutely the mind boggles. I do not understand that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
In February twenty twenty five, Leo was sentenced to ten
months in prison for having absconded from his original fraud
conviction and five year sentence. It's unclear whether he will
be criminally charged with respect to his conduct. While he
was on the run, Bernie took to TikTok, where he
shared his story. Through that experience, he has found language

(01:10:01):
to describe Leo and what he did.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
TikTok was instrumental in me healing and starting that healing process.
Somebody had commented on one of my posts and I
went onto their profile and they talk about narcissist and
narcissistic behavior, everything from the signs to the results of

(01:10:26):
what it actually does to you for the long term,
and instantly I was like, this is exactly what he
was doing. With the amount of gaslighting, love bombing, breadcrumbing,
you get so heavily sucked in that it does actually

(01:10:47):
change your makeup and it changes the way you think.
If you said in six months time, somebody is going
to be in your life and you are going to
be hanging on every word. You're not going to speak
to your friends, you're not going to speak to your family,
You're going to doubt everything that you say, I would
literally have a laugh and say, carry on drinking. It
would never happen to me. But it did.

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
He'll carry the experience with him for the rest of
his life.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Your trust in other people after this is almost non existent.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
He lost a lot, But now Bernie is focused on
what he does have.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
I have a beautiful soon to be a husband, and
I've got a little puppy, and I've got amazing friends
and family and actually neighbors. So I'm content. He will
never ever in his life have what I have sat
in this chair now, and I think that's just incredibly sad.

(01:11:51):
I don't hate him, I don't think too much other
than just sadness.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
Bernie wants to be a resource for other people who've
been victims of scam artists and narcissists, and the best
way for him to do that is on his TikTok
at Berniet Brown.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
When I went on and I saw the tiktoks around
narcissism and around the discard, the gas lighting, all of that,
that for me was just the awakening moment. Now I
can do that for somebody else out there, and it
does take a little bit of courage, especially if you're
going through it, or you are very fresh from a

(01:12:37):
narcissistic encounter. I just want to be that point of
call and be able to just listen.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
We end every weekly episode with the same question, why
do you want to share your story?

Speaker 2 (01:12:54):
I know for a fact that there's thousands of leos
around the world. That's why this conversation, I think is massively,
massively important. You know, if I'd have known about certain
things beforehand, maybe i'd have acted differently. Maybe I would't
have gone through what I'd have gone through. Maybe I'd

(01:13:16):
have acted differently halfway through, and I wouldn't have suffered
as much. But you know, what's happened to me is done.
But if I can share and open somebody else's eyes
and say, you know, if this ain't right, then it's
worth it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly, I mean shark
and disbelief, like just nauseatingly sick. The reality, I guess
is slowly sinking in that my life is all a lie.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
He's in the kitchen going to the coffee machine to
make himself an espresso.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
And he literally looks at me and shrugs, and he's.

Speaker 3 (01:13:59):
Like, so, oh, if you would like to reach out
to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your
Betrayal story, Email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:14:17):
That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or follow us
on Instagram at Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with
me on Instagram at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter,
view additional content, and connect with the Betrayal community, join
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Speaker 3 (01:14:37):
We're grateful for your support. One way to show support
is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts and
don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank
you to all of our listeners.

Speaker 3 (01:14:51):
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of
Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show
is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer, hosted and
produced by Me Andrea Gunning.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Written and produced by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Leboard, also
produced by Ben Fetterman.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali
Perry and Jessica Krincheck.

Speaker 1 (01:15:16):
Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vecchio, additional audio
editing by Tanner Robbins.

Speaker 3 (01:15:22):
Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bain's music library provided by
my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the
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