July 20, 2026 • 51 mins
In a special collaboration episode, Andrea Gunning joins Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Engels on Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to break down the crimes of Ed Kemper, who murdered at least six young women who accepted rides from him while hitchhiking in the 1970s. His violence traced back to a childhood marked by abuse, abandonment, and early cruelty toward animals and family. After killing his grandparents at 15 and years in a psychiatric facility, Kemper returned to society having learned exactly how to manipulate the people meant to stop him, including the doctors evaluating him.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, Andrea here. You know I spend most of
my time on Betrayal Weekly, digging into stories of broken
trust and the damage it leaves behind. So when the
team at Serial Killers Murderous Minds asked me to guest
on a deep dive into Ed Kemper, I jumped at it.
This is a case I know well. A few years back,
I worked on a documentary called Kemper on Kemper, Sitting
(00:24):
with the psychology of one of the most notorious killers
in American history. Today, I'm sharing that episode with you.
I joined hosts Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist doctor Tristan
Engels to get into Kemper's story, a childhood defined by ridicule,
the rage that festered underneath, and the six young women
he murdered in nineteen seventies California before he turned on
(00:47):
the person who tormented him, most his own mother. A
heads up before we start. This episode contains discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia,
and animal violence. Please listen with care. Here's part one.
For part two of the episode, including a discussion between me,
Vanessa and doctor Engels. Follow serial Killers and Murderous Minds
(01:09):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
This is crime House.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Some people have a keen sense of human nature. They
understand people's motives, fears, and behavioral patterns. Many use that
trait for good. They show their loved one support, set
their employees up for success, or simply avoid.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Anyone with toxic tendencies.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
At the same time, some use their people skills for
selfish reasons. They get a sense of someone's tendencies and
exploit them, whether it's for money, sex, their own personal validation,
or something else. Ed Kemper was one of those people,
except he didn't just use others.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
To get ahead.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
He used them to commit some of the most shocking
crimes America has ever seen.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
And we shaped what we thought we knew about the
killer mind.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think,
feel love and hate, but sometimes it drives people to
commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds,
a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And I'm forensic psychologist doctor Tristan Ingalls, And for the
next two episodes, Vanessa and I are thrilled to welcome
a very special guest, Andrea Gunning, host of the Betrayal
Weekly podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Thanks for having me, of course, we're happy to have you.
We're thrilled for everyone listening. If you're not following Betrayal Weekly,
make sure to go do it now. Every week Andrea
shares first hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and
the trail of destruction they leave behind. It's an absolute
must listen and I make sure to catch every episode.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Same here, Andrea. We love how you approach your cases,
and we are especially excited to have you on for
these episodes because you worked on a documentary on Ed
Kemper called Kemper on Kemper. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I work for Glass Entertainment Group and we produced a
documentary for Oxygen a few years back about Ed Kemper
called Kemper on Kemper, and we unpacked his crimes through
his own perspective, using his own words from his interviews.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
With law enforcement. Amazing. We can't wait to get your
insights on this case. Over the next two episodes, Andrea
will introduce you to Ed Kemper. Then be sure to
stick around at the end of part two for an
extended conversation between Andrea and doctor Engels as they break
down what makes this case so fascinating and absolutely terrifying.
(03:54):
Before I hand it off, I want to mention that
crime House exists because of listeners like you want even more,
Join crime House Plus and get both parts of every
story dropped on the same Monday, completely ad free, no
waiting three days for part two, plus crime House bonus
episodes every month. To join, go to crimehouseplus dot com,
or if you listen on Apple podcasts, tap try Free
(04:16):
at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
As we get started, be advised that this episode contains
discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia, and animal violence, so please
listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Doctor Engels begin their
deep dive into Ed Kemper, one of the most notorious
serial killers in American history. In nineteen seventies California, Ed
(04:40):
murdered at least six young female hitchhikers until finally turning
his rage on the person who tormented him, most his
own mother. And as vanessaa's through the story, Doctor Engels
will be talking about things like why a childhood defined
by ridicule can manifest in violence, how incarceration in early
adult can impact development. While some killers use complex post
(05:04):
mortem rituals to prolong the thrill, and as always they'll
be asking the question what makes a killer?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Violence was ingrained in ed Kemper from the moment he
came into the world. He was born in Burbank, California,
on December eighteenth, nineteen forty eight. His father, Edmund Kemper
the second, was a World War II Special Forces combat
veteran who went on to work as an electrician. His mother, Clarnel,
stayed home to care for ed and his two sisters,
(05:38):
Alan and Susan. Ed's dad was his hero. He reveled
in his war stories, including the ones about how he
killed enemy soldiers. Edmund thought it was good for his
son to hear those things. He believed he was teaching
him how to be a man, but Clarnel disapproved. In fact,
there wasn't much she agreed with her husband on. She
(05:59):
often berated Edmund for bringing home such a meager salary.
She desperately longed for a better life, and she used
alcohol to cope with the fact that she didn't have it.
Clarnel's drinking fueled her in Edmund's fights, and his behavior
wasn't much better. He often stormed out in a huff
and wouldn't return for days when he wasn't around. Clarnell
(06:20):
was especially harsh towards Ed. Whenever she lost her temper,
she beat him viciously. In Ed's mind, it was her
way of taking out her anger toward his dad.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Children learn how to communicate, express their emotions, and treat
others through what's modeled to them from their caregivers. It's
what we call social learning theory. And Ed is growing
up in an extremely volatile environment, so he's not getting
the best model of this, and the conflict in his
home is not just between his parents are interparental. It's
(06:52):
being displaced unto him as well. This environment can also
create deficits with attachment. This is always critical to when
the people a child is meant to depend on for
safety and stability or also the source of harm or distress.
Living in an environment like this for a prolonged period
of time without any stabilizing adult can affect how Ed
(07:13):
approaches trust, intimacy, and emotional regulation. Now, Ed thinking that
his mother was taking her anger out on him makes sense.
He's a child who has been hearing and observing his
parent's conflict for years. Children often personalize interparental conflict because
they don't have the cognitive and emotional maturity to fully
understand the complexities of adult relationships or, in this case,
(07:36):
the impact alcohol can have on his mother's judgment or
her behavior. He's simply trying to understand why he's being punished,
and so he's using the information that's available to him.
But if he comes to believe that he is being
punished for problems that exists between his parents, that can
create resentment in multiple areas, Resentment toward his mother for
(07:57):
hurting him, resentment toward his father for not protecting him,
and resentment toward relationships in general, if they repeatedly become
associated with pain, conflict, or instability.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
By growing up in this kind of household, do you
think Ed was forced to bottle up his emotions And
if he was, how could that have impacted him in
the long run.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I don't know if he was necessarily forced to bottle
up his emotions, but he did later say that he
felt powerless. Children who grow up in explosive or unpredictable
households like this often internalize the belief that expressing certain
emotions isn't safe for them, and if a parent is
unpredictable or abusive. Children tend to stop expressing emotions because
(08:38):
they're either ignored, punished for it, or escalate a conflict somehow.
They don't understand what will set off their unpredictable caregiver,
and their caregiver doesn't always communicate the connection between the
punishment and the behavior, so the child learns to shrink
themselves to avoid being responsible for their reaction ed. Many
(09:00):
children become hypervigilant. They start reading the room and monitoring
the moods of others, and then pretty soon they've spent
most of their time focused on surviving their environment. They've
never learned to understand their own feelings, and that can
create difficulties with their own emotional regulation. And if you've
never learned to express your emotions, they don't just disappear.
(09:23):
They often build up, and that often leads to expressing
them later in unhealthy ways.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Well.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Eventually, Clarnel and Edmund divorced, but for ed the psychological
damage was already done. He was nine years old when
they separated, and he felt completely abandoned by his father,
the only person in the world who understood him. And
when he and his mom and siblings moved to Helena, Montana,
Ed started showing some dark tendencies. His resentment quickly morphed
(09:52):
into something more sinister. Ed started experiencing violent, elaborate fantasies
which he couldn't help but act off when no one
was looking. He stole his sister's dolls and removed their heads,
and as he stared down at their small, disfigured bodies,
he felt a sense of sexual enjoyment. Soon Ed was
(10:13):
chasing the thrill. He didn't just want to dismember dolls.
He wanted to cause real feelings of torture, so he
set his sights on the family cat. One day, Ed
buried the animal alive, and later he dug its body
back up and decapitated it. Afterward, Ed realized how much
he enjoyed the act of killing It didn't even need
(10:34):
to be elaborate for him to gain a sense of pleasure,
like on another occasion when he shot and killed the
neighbor's dog. Everyone who knew Ed found his entire demeanor disturbing,
including his sisters. They saw him as a troubling nuisance.
As a way to toy with him, they once pushed
him into a swimming pool even though they knew he
couldn't swim. Ed managed to get out safely, and he
(10:57):
wanted revenge. One day, as he cleaned his rifle in
the living room, Alan walked in. When Ed saw her,
he immediately fired his gun in her direction, hitting the
wall behind her. Ed pretended it was an accident. Eventually,
Clarnel had enough of Ed's behavior. She was afraid he'd
hurt his sisters at night while they slept, so she
(11:18):
set up a cot in the basement and forced Ed
to sleep down there. She even locked a door so
he couldn't get out. Ed was furious at his mother
for doing that to him, and his anger was worsened
by the fact that she openly mocked him. Clarnel made
fun of Ed for not having any friends. She told
him no girl would ever be interested in him.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Ed appears to be a child who is repeatedly experiencing fear, humiliation,
and powerlessness, and then responding in increasingly alarming and dangerous ways.
But arguably pushing him into a pool when he couldn't
swim and then walking away is alarming too. But with
Ed's beha behaviors, what's also concerning is the response he
(12:03):
gets in return, every time he's engaging in these alarming behaviors,
he doesn't seem to be taught healthier ways to regulate
the emotions that drove those behaviors to begin with. Instead,
he's met with more isolation, more rejection, and more humiliation.
Being forced to sleep in a wocked basement may have
solved an immediate safety concern, at least on the surface,
(12:26):
but there's nothing to address the actual behaviors themselves. There's
no conversation to understand why he did what he did.
Locking him in the basement just further isolated him and
likely alienated him or made him feel less valued, especially
if his sisters received no punishment for their behavior toward him. Then,
on top of that, his mother mocks him, tells him
(12:49):
he has no friends and that no girl will ever
want him. That's psychological abuse and that can compound. And
if she's doing this in front of his sisters or
with his sisters, then he's continued to feel rejected by
his entire family system, just after he was humiliated by
his sisters in the pool. These experiences, especially if consistent,
(13:10):
can build resentment, shame, and loneliness over time. Again, no
one seems to be helping ed understand or manage what
he's feeling. Everyone is reacting to his behavior, and understandably
because again it's concerning, it's very alarming, but no one
appears to be addressing the behavior itself or the emotions
(13:30):
underneath it.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
In general, what can happen in the brain when a
child feels unloved and unwanted by their parents.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
In general, the brain can begin interpreting feeling unloved, unwanted,
or chronically rejected as a threat to safety and survival.
Prolonged stress can keep the body's threat detection system activated
more often than it's supposed to be, making a child
more hypervigilant and sensitive to signs of rejection, criticism, or danger.
(13:59):
And it can also affect areas of the brain involved
in emotional regulation, decision making. In memory, for example, chronic
stress has been associated with a more reactive amigdola, which
is involved in fear and emotional processing. It's associated with
changes in the hippocampus, which plays a role in memory,
to name a few. Of course, it can get much
(14:20):
deeper than that, but those are just the broad strokes.
Not every child will experience these changes, and none of
this determines their outcome, but this is an example in
general of how chronic, prolonged stress can affect a developing brain.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
By the time Ed was fourteen, he couldn't take it anymore.
He wanted to get far away from his mother, so
on Thanksgiving Day nineteen sixty three, he stole her car
and drove it to Butte, Montana, before catching a bus
to his father's house in Van Nuys, California. Ed was
hoping to move in with his dad and be free
of his mom for good, but when he got there,
(14:57):
he was in for a rude awakening. His father had
remarried and his new wife didn't want Ed living with them,
so his dad drove him to his paternal grandparents farmhouse.
Grandpa Ed and Grandma Maud took him in. It seemed
like a fresh start for Ed, but not everyone was
happy about it. When Claarnell learned what happened, she berated
(15:18):
her ex husband. She told him about how Ed had
killed their cat and the neighbor's dog. Then she said
Ed would kill his grandparents. Eventually, Claarnell's warnings fell on
deaf ears, and within weeks Ed developed the same rage
toward Maud that he felt toward his mother. Not only
was Maud extremely strict and refused to let him socialize
(15:39):
with other kids, but she openly complained about how much
it cost to take care of him. Ed's grandfather was
more sympathetic. He knew being a young man growing up
on a farm wasn't easy, so for Christmas, he gifted
Ed a twenty two caliber rifle to occupy his time.
He thought Ed could practice shooting small game on the property.
(16:03):
Ed was ecstatic for months, He killed whatever animals he
crossed paths with, but his grandparents were disturbed by all
the carcasses he left behind, so they briefly took the
gun away. However, Ed talked his grandfather into giving it back,
which turned out to be a tragic mistake. On August
(16:23):
twenty seventh, nineteen sixty four, Maud sat at the dining
room table writing on her typewriter. She had no idea
fifteen year old Ed was standing behind her, or that
he'd aimed his rifle directly at her. Without warning, Ed
pulled the trigger three times, hitting his grandmother in the
(16:44):
back and head. She died instantly. Afterward, Ed grabbed a
knife from the kitchen and stabbed her several times. Suddenly,
Ed noticed his grandfather's truck pulling up to the house.
He couldn't bear the thought of his grandfather seeing what
he'd done, so he snuck up behind him and shot
him in the head. Immediately afterward. Ed knew what he'd
(17:07):
done was wrong and that he needed help, so he
turned to an unlikely source, his mother. He sobbed into
the receiver, admitting to his actions, and Clarnel called the police.
When they arrived, Ed was sitting on the front porch
waiting for them. Even though he knew what he'd done
was wrong, that didn't mean he felt bad about it.
He told officers, quote, I just wanted to see what
(17:29):
it felt like to kill grandma.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I just want to highlight that learning that his father
had a new family and that he wasn't welcome there
once he got there was another rejection for him, and
that's important and it's not something to gloss over now.
When Ed says he wanted to see what it felt
like to kill his grandmother, I think that represents a
detachment from understanding, at least psychologically, the gravity of the act,
(17:57):
especially if he has spent a long time fantasized about it.
Fantasy driven offenders fantasize for a significant amount of time
before they act, and because of that, they can become
so focused on curiosity, experimentation, or rehearsal that they rarely
focus on appreciating the reality of their fantasy in practice,
(18:18):
or they've already been practicing on animals and there are
no real consequences that they can transfer to this experience.
And I think because of that, he had to confront
the reality of what he had done and face real
consequences for the first time in his life. But what
I find especially interesting in this moment is that after
he kills his grandparents, he then calls his mother. Despite
(18:42):
all resentment and conflict, She's still his mother. Children don't
simply stop needing their parents, even if their relationship with
them is unhealthy. He didn't call his father, he called
her in moments of crisis. It's actually very common for
people to reach for familiar attachment figures.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
What do you think it says about Ed that he
confessed so quickly. I mean, he just sat there waiting
and he said, you know, I did it. I just
wanted to see what it felt like. Do you think
it's possible that the entire incident was maybe just a
cry for help.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
A cry for help usually implies that the person consciously
intended for someone to intervene before something happened, and I
don't know that that's what this is. I think that
it's true that Ed was at a breaking point. Throughout
his childhood, He's repeatedly experienced conflict, rejection, humiliation, isolation, and
increasingly concerning behavior, which you've highlighted for us. But then
(19:38):
after killing his parents, he calls his mother for direction.
She calls the police and tells him to wait for them.
He listens. In this moment, like we talked about the
weight of the reality setting in, Ed is a teenager
and the only place he has to go is back
with his mother. His father wasn't going to accept him.
So it's possible, and again this is because I've never
(20:01):
evaluated at myself, but it's possible that he chose to
confess to his mother and follow her directions because he
knew she was his only practical and realistic option in
that moment. And if you recall from his childhood, we've
talked about how children who grow up with unpredictable and
volatile parents sometimes learn that obedience, compliance, or appeasement can
(20:23):
help them navigate those relationships more safely, So confessing and
following her instructions could be a reflection of that, especially
because he depends on her heavily. Right now. He doesn't
know what's going to happen after the police get there.
That's what his mother is for, and at the end
of the day, he's a teenager with no money, no resources,
and nowhere else to go.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Whether or not Ed regretted what he'd done, he certainly
regretted where it landed him. Because he was just fifteen
at the time of the murders, he wasn't charged as
an adult, but clearly the court saw something was deeply
wrong with him, so instead he was found to be
mentally ill and committed to the Atascadero State Hospital for
the Criminally Insane, which housed and treated around one thousand,
(21:07):
six hundred mentally ill prisoners. The remaining years of Ed's
young adulthood would now be spent among violent criminals and
sex offenders, and he planned to learn everything he could
from them. In nineteen sixty four, fifteen year old Ed
(21:29):
Kemper was sent to a Tascadero State Hospital for the
Criminally Insane after killing his grandparents. When he arrived, Ed
underwent a series of psychological evaluations. At first, he was
diagnosed with schizophrenia, but Ed's doctors were also fascinated to
discover he had an unusually high IQ, and as they
ran more tests, they began to question their diagnosis. Ed
(21:53):
didn't show signs of delusions or hallucinations like they expected.
He didn't show any evidence of unusual thought patterns either,
so they struggled to form a clear understanding of his
mind's inner workings. But Ed was learning a lot about them.
Throughout all the tests. He paid close attention to the
terminology doctors used. He also noticed that the more interest
(22:15):
he showed in his own mental health, the more they
explained to him, and eventually he earned their trust. Ed's
doctors enlisted his help testing other patients. He even helped
develop new tests to the doctors. This was a major
sign of rehabilitation. In reality, Ed had figured out what
doctors needed to hear to deem someone fit to rejoin society.
(22:37):
He memorized all the right responses, and eventually he tricked
his doctors into believing he was well enough to leave.
In nineteen sixty nine, when Ed was twenty one, he
was officially released on parole after five years at the hospital.
But even after his release, he wasn't totally free because
he had no choice but to move back in with
(22:58):
his mother, Clairenell. Ed's mom had moved to California. She
worked at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She was
even more resentful toward him now that he was a
convicted murderer and had killed their own family members. Ed
tried to find a silver lining to his new living situation.
In the early nineteen seventies, the Ocean Front community was
(23:20):
a hub for college students, hippies, and surfers. The free spirited,
liberated lifestyle was the total opposite of what Ed had
just experienced for the last five years. Ed did his
best to adapt, but he didn't have much of a
social life. His main goal was to become a police
officer at the mental hospital. He'd enjoyed having even just
(23:41):
a little power over the other patients, so he chased
that feeling. He started going to local police hangouts to
chat them up and try and get into their good graces.
Ed felt like he had a shot at becoming an
officer because his juvenile records were sealed. However, things didn't
go his way. He was denied because he exceeded the
(24:01):
height and weight limits. Ed was massive. He stood at
six foot nine, weighing nearly three hundred pounds, and his
appearance didn't just cost him jobs, it made dating even
more difficult. Sometimes women got startled or even screamed when
they saw him simply because of his size. It made
Ed feel like he wasn't even human.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
If Ed has spent years being rejected and humiliated and
mocked by his mother, who repeatedly told him that no
woman would ever want him, and if he's experienced similar
ridicule from his sisters, then this can feel like cumulative rejection.
And that's especially concerning when you pair it with his
interests in power and his history of violence. That's a
(24:48):
risky combination because healthy relationships require vulnerability, consent, and an
understanding of autonomy. Power. On the other hand, something that
he's interested in can allow tell someone to believe that
they can bypass all of those things, leaving no room
for perceived rejection or humiliation. And as always my caveats,
(25:09):
this doesn't mean that rejection causes violence. Millions of people
experience romantic rejection and never become violent. But when rejection
is layered on top of years of humiliation, social isolation, resentment,
and a history of violent behavior and antisocial behavior, it
can become another risk factor that compounds what's already there.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
How do you think he would have reacted to the
fact that the thing preventing him from getting his dream
job his size, was the same thing affecting his dating life.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I think this could have been especially difficult for Ed
because it may have felt like his mother was right.
I mean, remember his mother repeatedly taunted him and told
him that women would never want him. Then if he's
struggling in his dating life and simultaneously being told that
his size is preventing him from pursuing his dream career,
that can be triggering a core belief in him that
(26:05):
can create a tremendous amount of resentment, because now he's
not only angry at his mother for saying those things
in the first place, He's potentially angry that his own
experiences seemed to be confirming them. And if he believes
all of this is tied to something that he can't control,
which is your size. You have absolutely no control over that.
That can also create a sense of powerlessness because it's
(26:29):
an obstacle that feels out of his control. So imagine
what that can create.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Well, instead of focusing his energy on dating, Ed looked
for another job. He eventually got hired as a construction
worker with the Division of Highways, which he seemed to like.
He was still new to the area and it helped
him become familiar with the roadways. Plus he was making
his own money for the first time. He saved up
enough to rent his own apartment and by a yellow
(26:56):
nineteen sixty nine Ford Galaxy, which he used to get
away from Claiarnel as much as possible. Pretty soon, Ed
realized that having a car could be his ticket to
meeting more women too. This was not only the era
of hitchhiking, but there were several colleges in the area,
so a lot of pretty young women were out on
the roads looking for a ride. Ed started picking up
(27:18):
female hitchhikers. He'd drive them as far as the Oregon border,
hundreds of miles away. He didn't do anything other than
try and strike up conversation and maybe flirt a little,
but none of the girls seemed interested, but they did
give him insight into how women perceived him. For example,
he learned that the short, cop like hair style he
had was considered uncool and made girls feel suspicious of him,
(27:41):
so he grew it out, along with a mustache to
give himself more of a hippie look, and he added
a pair of round glasses to seem a little studious.
Ed's makeover seemed to work. By his own estimate, around
a thousand hitchhikers took rides from him. He studied each encounter,
but he wasn't just hoping to improve his dating skills.
(28:01):
After he'd dropped women off, Ed fantasized about what he
wished he'd done to them. He'd been experiencing the urge
to sexually assault someone, and it was becoming harder to fight.
But given his size and his bold car, Ed knew
he'd be easy to identify. He had to find a
way to leave behind no witnesses, and in his mind,
(28:23):
the only way to do that was to kill his victims.
Ed's stay at the mental institution did nothing to quell
his murderous rage. Over time, he prepared for his first attack.
He packed plastic bags, knives, and handcuffs in his trunk.
Then he started driving women off course to remote areas
(28:43):
to see if they'd notice. Eventually, Ed realized how unfamiliar
many people were with the area, and once he felt ready,
he bought a gun and stashed it in his car.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Ed essentially conducted a long term experiment with women, and
according to to what you described, he's given rides to
around one thousand women. That's quite a bit of social
data collected on how women responded to him, what made
them comfortable, what made them uncomfortable, how to present himself,
how to lower suspicion. And we've actually seen this pattern
(29:18):
before at a Taskadero State Hospital, he observed his surroundings closely.
He appeared to learn how professionals thought, what they looked for,
and what to say and do to get discharged. Here
we see much of the same. He's learning how women
think and what behaviors make him seem safe and trustworthy.
It is intelligent. He's organized, calculated and skilled at adapting
(29:42):
him to whatever environment. He studies people, test situations, gathers
information and adjusts his behavior until he's ready. Think of
all the women that he offered rides to that he
did not kill but probably wanted to. That suggests a
degree of control. Only you can't accurately detect his intentions,
(30:04):
which is exactly what he wants. You would just never know.
What does it say about Ed that he could figure
out how to blend in and seem non threatening. Does
this support his former doctors believe that he was highly intelligent?
And do you think that tricking his doctors helped him
know he could get away with all this? We talked
about how children who grow up in unpredictable environments often
(30:26):
become very good at adapting and reading the room because
it can help them anticipate conflict and navigate difficult relationships.
Only with Ed, this is no longer serving a protective
function for him. He's using those skills for personal gain
and deception and ultimately to harm others, which is much
more consistent with psychopathic traits and predatory behavior. Obviously, as
(30:49):
a reminder, psychopathy is not a diagnosis. It's a personality
construct comprised of interpersonal, effective, and behavioral traits. And the
traits that best describe this behave that allow Ed to
blend in and seem so non threatening. Our instrumental use
of others, manipulation, superficial charm, callousness or lack of empathy,
(31:11):
predatory orientation, and deception, and all of these things make
him such a good chameleon.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
While in the spring of nineteen seventy two, Ed was
ready to strike. Around four pm on May seventh, the
twenty three year old cruised around Berkeley looking for his prey.
Soon he came across two Fresno State College roommates, mary
Anne Peshi and Anita Lukesa. They were both eighteen and
had been visiting friends at UC Berkeley. Now they wanted
(31:43):
to hitch a ride to Stanford, about forty miles away.
Anita was five foot one with sun bleached hair and
gold rimmed glasses. Mary Anne was the same height with
dark hair and blue eyes. She'd hitchhiked across Europe before,
so she was much more experienced than Anita, and when
Ed up, she felt hesitant. Something seemed off about him,
(32:04):
but eventually the two got in his car, Anita in
the front seat, mary Anne in the back. It would
be at least an hour long drive to their destination,
so Ed had plenty of opportunities to travel through remote
stretches of terrain. He even asked them questions about the
area to see how familiar they were with their surroundings.
But as two teenagers new to town without cars of
(32:25):
their own, they were out of their depths. About thirty
minutes into their drive, He brought them out to a
secluded road near the city of Hayward, then ed turned
on them. He flashed a nine millimeter Browning automatic pistol
and handcuffed Marianne to a seat belt. He then tied
up Anita and told her to get in the trunk.
She begged him not to hurt them, and Ed slammed
(32:49):
the trunk door shut. Returning to mary Anne, he put
a plastic bag over her head and tried to asphyxiate
her with a terrycloth belt. Despite being bound and outweighed
by nearly two hundred pounds, mary Anne fought viciously. She
chewed through the bag and maneuvered the belt from her
neck to her mouth, cutting it with her teeth. In
(33:11):
a fury, Ed stabbed her repeatedly. Shocked at how she
could survive so many stab wounds. He finally slit her throat.
Ed was shocked at what he'd just done. He looked
at his hands, and they were completely covered in blood.
Anita heard everything from inside the trunk, and once it
(33:34):
was over, Ed opened up the trunk and attacked her too,
Just like mary Anne. She put up a vicious fight,
but in the end Ed took Anita's life as well. Afterward,
he put mary Anne's body in the trunk alongside Anita's.
He started driving home when suddenly he noticed police lights
flashing behind him. He pulled over the officer approached, He
(33:58):
told Ed his tail light was out. Anita must have
kicked it. As the officer got closer, Ed was sure
he'd notice blood splatter in the back seat or on
his hands. He prepared to grab his knife and stab
the officer next, but the officer didn't notice anything amiss.
He sent Ed on his way with two bodies in
(34:19):
his trunk.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
I touched on this concept briefly, but it's a great
place to elaborate. For years, Ed had been fantasizing, planning,
and then behaviorally rehearsing these crimes. But fantasy and reality
are two very different experiences. In fantasy, it's always going
to go exactly how he wants it to. Otherwise it's
(34:41):
not a fantasy. Rarely do they factor in realistic scenarios
like attempted escape. For example, the fact that he seemed
shocked by the amount of blood and by how much
resistance he got suggests just that it could also be
psychologically revealing that he targeted two victims rather than one.
We know so he spent years learning how to lower
(35:02):
suspicion and working on ways to perfect that, so he's
become increasingly confident in his ability to control situations. It's
possible he simply felt confident and capable of managing the
two of them, especially when you consider the messages that
he's internalized with regard to his size and the strength
that comes with that. At the same time, it could
(35:23):
have simply been a matter of opportunity. He'd been building
up to this moment. He had his gun ready, and
he was not willing to wait anymore, so when he
encountered Marianne and Anita, he decided to act on it.
But what's especially concerning, though, is what happens afterward. Despite
being seemingly shocked, he very quickly shifts into problem solving mode.
(35:45):
He continues driving, he starts thinking about how not to
get caught, and he even prepares to kill a police
officer if necessary, which is a very similar behavioral sequence.
After he killed his grandmother, he shot her, he heard
his grand coming home, made a decision to kill him,
killed him, then continued in problem solving mode by calling
(36:06):
his mother and then following her directions. So to me,
this moment after killing mary Anne and Anita is one
of the more psychologically revealing moments because it shows how
rapidly Ed can compartmentalize and then prioritize self preservation, especially
because of what comes next, which is perhaps the more
gratifying part of this process for him.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Ed had committed the unspeakable, and behind closed doors, his
behavior was about to become even more disturbing. In May
of nineteen seventy two, twenty three year old Ed Kemper
murdered two college women, mary Anne Peshi and Anita Lukesa.
(36:52):
The pair had been hitchhiking when Ed picked them up. Afterward,
he put both bodies in the trunk of his car
and drove home, and Ed wasn't done with them. At
his apartment, he dismembered and decapitated both the victims, mirroring
his childhood when he used to remove the heads from
his sister's dolls. Then he sexually assaulted both bodies. He
(37:15):
took polaroid photos while he did it, which he then
stored in plastic bags in his closet. Ed kept his
victim's remains in his home overnight, but he knew the
neighbors would eventually smell the decomposition, so the next morning
he placed them back into his car and drove to
Loma Prieda, the highest peak in the Santa Cruz Mountains. There,
(37:36):
he scattered the women's remains in the forest, keeping mental
notes of where he left them. That way he could
come back and relive everything he'd done. However, Ed hadn't
disposed of all the remains. He kept both victims heads
in his apartment as a souvenir.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Necrophilia is a profound sexual attraction to or desired to
engage in sexual acts with a corpse. It exists on
a spectrum ranging from mild to severe, and Ed falls
on the severe end.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Of that spectrum.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Individuals who engage in these acts are often seeking a
partner who is unresisting, incapable of rejecting them, and entirely
under their control. Now, I want to be very careful
here because None of what I'm about to discuss causes necrophilia,
or in any way excuses any of what Ed has done.
Millions of people experience difficult childhoods, disrupted attachments, family conflict, rejection,
(38:34):
or even institutionalization and never developed these behaviors. Human behavior
is far too complex to draw a straight line from
one life experience to one particular outcome, But what these
experiences can do is provide context. Through Ed's life, We've
repeatedly seen themes of him feeling rejected, humiliated, and powerless,
(38:56):
with disrupted attachments and difficulty forming relationships. We've talked about
his mother and his sisters and the taunting in the home,
his relationship with his grandmother being similar to his mother,
and the fact that he spent many of his formative
adolescent years at a Tascadero State hospital during a time
when many teenagers are developing age appropriate social and romantic experiences.
(39:19):
And now he's continuing to experience rejection from peers and
he has emerging psychopathy traits. Again, none of these experiences
explain or excuse his behavior, but when we step back
and we look at the broader picture, we can begin
to see why themes like control, fantasy, fulfillment, and possession
repeatedly emerge throughout his crimes. A corpse cannot reject him,
(39:43):
humiliate him, criticize him, or leave him. It offers a
level of control that simply doesn't exist in any healthy
human relationship.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Okay, I have to ask why do you think Ed
kept his victims' heads? And why do you think he
took photos as he violently their corpses. What can we
glean about the way he seemed to be documenting things
and keeping souvenirs?
Speaker 3 (40:06):
This is likely trophy collection. Trophy collection is primarily about
reliving the fantasy, allowing them to mentally replay every aspect
of it as many times as they want for their
own gratification. It can be about possessing the victims, allowing
them to extend their control and dominance over them. Or
it can be about a validation of power similar to
(40:27):
a hunter with taxidermy. Or it can be a way
of building a ritual. And if you think about Ed's
history of rejection, then this is likely about possession and
his distorted way of maintaining a connection to his victims,
but on his terms.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
As Ed enjoyed the high of his gruesome acts. Mary
Anne and Anita's families did everything imaginable to find them.
They filed police reports, put up flyers, and even hired
private detectives. But at the time, California was rampant with
hitchhikers or other young traps who police considered runaways. No
one except Ed had any idea what a horrific end
(41:06):
mary Anne and Anita had faced. But that was about
to change. Months past and mary Anne and Anita's heads
had decomposed. All that was left was their skulls. Eventually,
he decided to get rid of them in the mountains,
and in August of nineteen seventy two, some hitch hikers
found mary Anne's. Police used dental records to identify her,
(41:29):
and in August of nineteen seventy two, some hikers found
mary Anne's. Police used dental records to identify her, and
now authorities and the victim's families realized the nightmarish reality.
It was clear that Marianne's head had been removed by
another person, and people believed the same had happened to Anita. However,
(41:50):
there was no evidence to lead police to a suspect. Meanwhile,
Ed wasn't worried about getting caught even if the authorities
did have evidence. Forensic DNA testing wasn't around at the time,
so he knew he hadn't left any valuable clues behind,
and one month after Mary Anne's skull was found, Ed
felt the urge to kill again. On September fourteenth, nineteen
(42:14):
seventy two, he went hunting for his next victim. He
spotted fifteen year old Ico Coup at a bus stop
in Berkeley. Ko had missed her bus and she was
running late to a dance class, so she held out
a sign to try and hitchhike a ride. Ed spotted
her and pulled up in his yellow Ford. He offered
a drive Ico wherever she wanted to go, and she accepted.
(42:39):
Despite her young age, Ko was already establishing herself as
a ballerina and traditional Korean dancer. That evening, she left
home excited that she'd been selected to perform at a
dance festival. So as Ed drove, Ko's thoughts were preoccupied
with her future. It wasn't until Ed reached the mountains
above Santa Cruz that I Jiko realized they were way
(43:01):
off course, but it was too late. Ed pulled out
his gun, put tape over her mouth, and ordered her
into the back seat. Terrified, Icho did as she was told.
Too large to jump into the back seat himself, Ed
got out of the car and accidentally locked himself out.
Will never know why, but Icho let him back into
(43:23):
the car. When he got in the back seat, he
suffocated her until she passed out. While she was unconscious,
he sexually assaulted her. Then when she began to come too,
he strangled her to death. He put her body in
the trunk, then drove home, but not before making a
couple of stops. First, he stopped at a bar for
(43:44):
a few beers. While he drank, Ed thought about his mother.
He wondered if she'd be able to sense he was
behaving differently after what he'd done, so he got back
into his car and drove to her house. They chatted
for about thirty minutes, but she didn't seems suspicious at all,
so Ed finally headed home.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Ed has repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of observing others, gathering information,
and adapting accordingly. He's consistently trying to test if he
can fit in, whether that is adjusting his appearance or
his post offense behavior. And this has helped him blend in.
The Only person who has ever known how truly dangerous
(44:27):
he is, or has warned others about what he's capable of,
is his mother. She warned his father that he would
kill his grandparents. So the fact that he decided to
test this out with her is rather telling, because if she,
of all people, can't tell what he has just done,
(44:47):
then I think to him, his presentation is a success.
It passed the test. Whatever behavior or demeanor he's used
to deceive her is working. Ed is learning how to
hide in planes sight.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
What do you make of the fact that Ed made
two stops, first at the bar and then at his
mom's house right after killing ko and while her body
was still in the trunk of his car. Do you
think he just enjoyed the feeling of being around people
while keeping this secret.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Yeah, it's possible he was gaining something from this, for sure.
Some organized serial offenders get psychological gratification from successfully deceiving
others and avoiding suspicion. And here he is sitting among
them having drinks while Iico's body is in his trunk,
and everyone around him is none the wiser that can
give him a feeling of mastery because he knows something
(45:36):
that no one else does, and more importantly, he successfully
concealed it. And I think that's also why he wanted
to expand on this feeling by testing this with his
mother next. I also think this speaks to his compartmentalization
that he can so easily go from murdering a young
woman like that in such a horrific way after assaulting
her to engaging in ordinary social interactions as though nothing happened,
(46:00):
and every successful experience like this is going to reinforce
his confidence even more.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
It's possible Ed enjoyed being able to blend back into
society after committing a gruesome murder, and after leaving his
mom's house, he still wasn't done. The next morning, he
spent about four hours dismembering Iko's body and removing her head.
The entire process excited him sexually, and he assaulted his
victim's remains numerous times. When he was done, Ed did
(46:30):
the same thing as before. He kept Iko's head as
well as her hands, and disposed of the rest in
the mountains. While in the forest, Ed also looked through
Iko's belongings. He found her address and decided to drive by.
That's when he realized she came from a humble home.
Ed felt extremely disappointed in himself. He felt that women
(46:51):
from wealthier backgrounds deserved what he did to them, but
not girls like Iiko. And while Ko wasn't rich, she
was loved. Her mother had called the police just hours
after she should have returned home, but they told her
Iko had probably run away and refused to help her.
All the while, Ed was driving around town with the
young girl's head in the trunk of his car, including
(47:15):
on his way to a psychiatric evaluation. After seeing Iko's house,
Ed drove one hundred and sixty miles to Fresno to
meet with court appointed psychiatrists. His juvenile records had been
temporarily sealed when he was released, but he wanted them
permanently sealed so he could try again to become a
police officer. At the appointment, Ed said all the right
(47:37):
things and passed the evaluation with flying colors. Doctors believed
he posed no violent threat to anyone, and they recommended
his records remain sealed. Just like that, the murder of
Ed's grandparents continued to be sealed away from the authorities.
He felt completely invincible. To celebrate, he bought a new
(47:59):
gun in January of nineteen seventy three. That same day,
he picked out his next victim, nineteen year old Cynthia Shoal,
a Santa Cruz local and Cabrio College student. Cynthia was
looking for a ride to class, and Ed offered her one,
but instead of taking her to the campus, Ed drove
(48:19):
Cynthia to an isolated area somewhere between Corolidos and Freedom
in Santa Cruz County. He pulled out his new twenty
two caliber pistol and forced her into the trunk. Then
he shot her once in the head. Ed intended to
act out his usual post murder ritual, but instead of
bringing Cynthia's remains to his apartment, he drove to his mother's.
(48:44):
While she wasn't around, he dismembered the remains and assaulted
his latest victim's corpse. Later, Ed disposed of Cynthia's remains
across Big sur. He had no idea that this time
he was leaving behind crucial evidence. Thanks so much for listening.
(49:18):
Come back next time. As Andrea joins doctor Engels and
me for the conclusion of our deep dive into the
mind of Ed Kemper.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Looking forward to it. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is
a crime House original powered by Paved Studios. Here at
crime House, we want to thank each and every one
of you for your support. If you like what you
heard today, reach out on Instagram at crime House, don't
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(49:46):
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Speaker 2 (49:47):
And to enhance your listening experience, join crime House Plus
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(50:08):
the serial Killers and Murderous Minds page. Serial Killers and
Murderous Minds is hosted by me Vanessa Richardson and forensic
psychologist doctor Tristan Engels and is a crime House original
powered by Paved Studios. This episode was brought to life
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(50:29):
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Speaker 1 (50:42):
This was part one of the Ed Kemper Deep Dive
from serial Killers and Murderous Minds. Part two picks up
with Kemper's final most personal kill, plus an extended conversation
between me and doctor Engels breaking the whole case down.
Here's the important part. Part two is not in the
speed To hear it, you need to follow serial Killers
and Murderous Minds. Search serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever
(51:06):
you're listening right now and hit follow
Hey everyone, Andrea here. You know I spend most of
my time on Betrayal Weekly, digging into stories of broken
trust and the damage it leaves behind. So when the
team at Serial Killers Murderous Minds asked me to guest
on a deep dive into Ed Kemper, I jumped at it.
This is a case I know well. A few years back,
I worked on a documentary called Kemper on Kemper, Sitting
(00:24):
with the psychology of one of the most notorious killers
in American history. Today, I'm sharing that episode with you.
I joined hosts Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist doctor Tristan
Engels to get into Kemper's story, a childhood defined by ridicule,
the rage that festered underneath, and the six young women
he murdered in nineteen seventies California before he turned on
(00:47):
the person who tormented him, most his own mother. A
heads up before we start. This episode contains discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia,
and animal violence. Please listen with care. Here's part one.
For part two of the episode, including a discussion between me,
Vanessa and doctor Engels. Follow serial Killers and Murderous Minds
(01:09):
wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
This is crime House.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Some people have a keen sense of human nature. They
understand people's motives, fears, and behavioral patterns. Many use that
trait for good. They show their loved one support, set
their employees up for success, or simply avoid.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Anyone with toxic tendencies.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
At the same time, some use their people skills for
selfish reasons. They get a sense of someone's tendencies and
exploit them, whether it's for money, sex, their own personal validation,
or something else. Ed Kemper was one of those people,
except he didn't just use others.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
To get ahead.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
He used them to commit some of the most shocking
crimes America has ever seen.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
And we shaped what we thought we knew about the
killer mind.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think,
feel love and hate, but sometimes it drives people to
commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds,
a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
And I'm forensic psychologist doctor Tristan Ingalls, And for the
next two episodes, Vanessa and I are thrilled to welcome
a very special guest, Andrea Gunning, host of the Betrayal
Weekly podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Thanks for having me, of course, we're happy to have you.
We're thrilled for everyone listening. If you're not following Betrayal Weekly,
make sure to go do it now. Every week Andrea
shares first hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and
the trail of destruction they leave behind. It's an absolute
must listen and I make sure to catch every episode.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Same here, Andrea. We love how you approach your cases,
and we are especially excited to have you on for
these episodes because you worked on a documentary on Ed
Kemper called Kemper on Kemper. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I work for Glass Entertainment Group and we produced a
documentary for Oxygen a few years back about Ed Kemper
called Kemper on Kemper, and we unpacked his crimes through
his own perspective, using his own words from his interviews.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
With law enforcement. Amazing. We can't wait to get your
insights on this case. Over the next two episodes, Andrea
will introduce you to Ed Kemper. Then be sure to
stick around at the end of part two for an
extended conversation between Andrea and doctor Engels as they break
down what makes this case so fascinating and absolutely terrifying.
(03:54):
Before I hand it off, I want to mention that
crime House exists because of listeners like you want even more,
Join crime House Plus and get both parts of every
story dropped on the same Monday, completely ad free, no
waiting three days for part two, plus crime House bonus
episodes every month. To join, go to crimehouseplus dot com,
or if you listen on Apple podcasts, tap try Free
(04:16):
at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
As we get started, be advised that this episode contains
discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia, and animal violence, so please
listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Doctor Engels begin their
deep dive into Ed Kemper, one of the most notorious
serial killers in American history. In nineteen seventies California, Ed
(04:40):
murdered at least six young female hitchhikers until finally turning
his rage on the person who tormented him, most his
own mother. And as vanessaa's through the story, Doctor Engels
will be talking about things like why a childhood defined
by ridicule can manifest in violence, how incarceration in early
adult can impact development. While some killers use complex post
(05:04):
mortem rituals to prolong the thrill, and as always they'll
be asking the question what makes a killer?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Violence was ingrained in ed Kemper from the moment he
came into the world. He was born in Burbank, California,
on December eighteenth, nineteen forty eight. His father, Edmund Kemper
the second, was a World War II Special Forces combat
veteran who went on to work as an electrician. His mother, Clarnel,
stayed home to care for ed and his two sisters,
(05:38):
Alan and Susan. Ed's dad was his hero. He reveled
in his war stories, including the ones about how he
killed enemy soldiers. Edmund thought it was good for his
son to hear those things. He believed he was teaching
him how to be a man, but Clarnel disapproved. In fact,
there wasn't much she agreed with her husband on. She
(05:59):
often berated Edmund for bringing home such a meager salary.
She desperately longed for a better life, and she used
alcohol to cope with the fact that she didn't have it.
Clarnel's drinking fueled her in Edmund's fights, and his behavior
wasn't much better. He often stormed out in a huff
and wouldn't return for days when he wasn't around. Clarnell
(06:20):
was especially harsh towards Ed. Whenever she lost her temper,
she beat him viciously. In Ed's mind, it was her
way of taking out her anger toward his dad.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Children learn how to communicate, express their emotions, and treat
others through what's modeled to them from their caregivers. It's
what we call social learning theory. And Ed is growing
up in an extremely volatile environment, so he's not getting
the best model of this, and the conflict in his
home is not just between his parents are interparental. It's
(06:52):
being displaced unto him as well. This environment can also
create deficits with attachment. This is always critical to when
the people a child is meant to depend on for
safety and stability or also the source of harm or distress.
Living in an environment like this for a prolonged period
of time without any stabilizing adult can affect how Ed
(07:13):
approaches trust, intimacy, and emotional regulation. Now, Ed thinking that
his mother was taking her anger out on him makes sense.
He's a child who has been hearing and observing his
parent's conflict for years. Children often personalize interparental conflict because
they don't have the cognitive and emotional maturity to fully
understand the complexities of adult relationships or, in this case,
(07:36):
the impact alcohol can have on his mother's judgment or
her behavior. He's simply trying to understand why he's being punished,
and so he's using the information that's available to him.
But if he comes to believe that he is being
punished for problems that exists between his parents, that can
create resentment in multiple areas, Resentment toward his mother for
(07:57):
hurting him, resentment toward his father for not protecting him,
and resentment toward relationships in general, if they repeatedly become
associated with pain, conflict, or instability.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
By growing up in this kind of household, do you
think Ed was forced to bottle up his emotions And
if he was, how could that have impacted him in
the long run.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
I don't know if he was necessarily forced to bottle
up his emotions, but he did later say that he
felt powerless. Children who grow up in explosive or unpredictable
households like this often internalize the belief that expressing certain
emotions isn't safe for them, and if a parent is
unpredictable or abusive. Children tend to stop expressing emotions because
(08:38):
they're either ignored, punished for it, or escalate a conflict somehow.
They don't understand what will set off their unpredictable caregiver,
and their caregiver doesn't always communicate the connection between the
punishment and the behavior, so the child learns to shrink
themselves to avoid being responsible for their reaction ed. Many
(09:00):
children become hypervigilant. They start reading the room and monitoring
the moods of others, and then pretty soon they've spent
most of their time focused on surviving their environment. They've
never learned to understand their own feelings, and that can
create difficulties with their own emotional regulation. And if you've
never learned to express your emotions, they don't just disappear.
(09:23):
They often build up, and that often leads to expressing
them later in unhealthy ways.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Well.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Eventually, Clarnel and Edmund divorced, but for ed the psychological
damage was already done. He was nine years old when
they separated, and he felt completely abandoned by his father,
the only person in the world who understood him. And
when he and his mom and siblings moved to Helena, Montana,
Ed started showing some dark tendencies. His resentment quickly morphed
(09:52):
into something more sinister. Ed started experiencing violent, elaborate fantasies
which he couldn't help but act off when no one
was looking. He stole his sister's dolls and removed their heads,
and as he stared down at their small, disfigured bodies,
he felt a sense of sexual enjoyment. Soon Ed was
(10:13):
chasing the thrill. He didn't just want to dismember dolls.
He wanted to cause real feelings of torture, so he
set his sights on the family cat. One day, Ed
buried the animal alive, and later he dug its body
back up and decapitated it. Afterward, Ed realized how much
he enjoyed the act of killing It didn't even need
(10:34):
to be elaborate for him to gain a sense of pleasure,
like on another occasion when he shot and killed the
neighbor's dog. Everyone who knew Ed found his entire demeanor disturbing,
including his sisters. They saw him as a troubling nuisance.
As a way to toy with him, they once pushed
him into a swimming pool even though they knew he
couldn't swim. Ed managed to get out safely, and he
(10:57):
wanted revenge. One day, as he cleaned his rifle in
the living room, Alan walked in. When Ed saw her,
he immediately fired his gun in her direction, hitting the
wall behind her. Ed pretended it was an accident. Eventually,
Clarnel had enough of Ed's behavior. She was afraid he'd
hurt his sisters at night while they slept, so she
(11:18):
set up a cot in the basement and forced Ed
to sleep down there. She even locked a door so
he couldn't get out. Ed was furious at his mother
for doing that to him, and his anger was worsened
by the fact that she openly mocked him. Clarnel made
fun of Ed for not having any friends. She told
him no girl would ever be interested in him.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Ed appears to be a child who is repeatedly experiencing fear, humiliation,
and powerlessness, and then responding in increasingly alarming and dangerous ways.
But arguably pushing him into a pool when he couldn't
swim and then walking away is alarming too. But with
Ed's beha behaviors, what's also concerning is the response he
(12:03):
gets in return, every time he's engaging in these alarming behaviors,
he doesn't seem to be taught healthier ways to regulate
the emotions that drove those behaviors to begin with. Instead,
he's met with more isolation, more rejection, and more humiliation.
Being forced to sleep in a wocked basement may have
solved an immediate safety concern, at least on the surface,
(12:26):
but there's nothing to address the actual behaviors themselves. There's
no conversation to understand why he did what he did.
Locking him in the basement just further isolated him and
likely alienated him or made him feel less valued, especially
if his sisters received no punishment for their behavior toward him. Then,
on top of that, his mother mocks him, tells him
(12:49):
he has no friends and that no girl will ever
want him. That's psychological abuse and that can compound. And
if she's doing this in front of his sisters or
with his sisters, then he's continued to feel rejected by
his entire family system, just after he was humiliated by
his sisters in the pool. These experiences, especially if consistent,
(13:10):
can build resentment, shame, and loneliness over time. Again, no
one seems to be helping ed understand or manage what
he's feeling. Everyone is reacting to his behavior, and understandably
because again it's concerning, it's very alarming, but no one
appears to be addressing the behavior itself or the emotions
(13:30):
underneath it.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
In general, what can happen in the brain when a
child feels unloved and unwanted by their parents.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
In general, the brain can begin interpreting feeling unloved, unwanted,
or chronically rejected as a threat to safety and survival.
Prolonged stress can keep the body's threat detection system activated
more often than it's supposed to be, making a child
more hypervigilant and sensitive to signs of rejection, criticism, or danger.
(13:59):
And it can also affect areas of the brain involved
in emotional regulation, decision making. In memory, for example, chronic
stress has been associated with a more reactive amigdola, which
is involved in fear and emotional processing. It's associated with
changes in the hippocampus, which plays a role in memory,
to name a few. Of course, it can get much
(14:20):
deeper than that, but those are just the broad strokes.
Not every child will experience these changes, and none of
this determines their outcome, but this is an example in
general of how chronic, prolonged stress can affect a developing brain.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
By the time Ed was fourteen, he couldn't take it anymore.
He wanted to get far away from his mother, so
on Thanksgiving Day nineteen sixty three, he stole her car
and drove it to Butte, Montana, before catching a bus
to his father's house in Van Nuys, California. Ed was
hoping to move in with his dad and be free
of his mom for good, but when he got there,
(14:57):
he was in for a rude awakening. His father had
remarried and his new wife didn't want Ed living with them,
so his dad drove him to his paternal grandparents farmhouse.
Grandpa Ed and Grandma Maud took him in. It seemed
like a fresh start for Ed, but not everyone was
happy about it. When Claarnell learned what happened, she berated
(15:18):
her ex husband. She told him about how Ed had
killed their cat and the neighbor's dog. Then she said
Ed would kill his grandparents. Eventually, Claarnell's warnings fell on
deaf ears, and within weeks Ed developed the same rage
toward Maud that he felt toward his mother. Not only
was Maud extremely strict and refused to let him socialize
(15:39):
with other kids, but she openly complained about how much
it cost to take care of him. Ed's grandfather was
more sympathetic. He knew being a young man growing up
on a farm wasn't easy, so for Christmas, he gifted
Ed a twenty two caliber rifle to occupy his time.
He thought Ed could practice shooting small game on the property.
(16:03):
Ed was ecstatic for months, He killed whatever animals he
crossed paths with, but his grandparents were disturbed by all
the carcasses he left behind, so they briefly took the
gun away. However, Ed talked his grandfather into giving it back,
which turned out to be a tragic mistake. On August
(16:23):
twenty seventh, nineteen sixty four, Maud sat at the dining
room table writing on her typewriter. She had no idea
fifteen year old Ed was standing behind her, or that
he'd aimed his rifle directly at her. Without warning, Ed
pulled the trigger three times, hitting his grandmother in the
(16:44):
back and head. She died instantly. Afterward, Ed grabbed a
knife from the kitchen and stabbed her several times. Suddenly,
Ed noticed his grandfather's truck pulling up to the house.
He couldn't bear the thought of his grandfather seeing what
he'd done, so he snuck up behind him and shot
him in the head. Immediately afterward. Ed knew what he'd
(17:07):
done was wrong and that he needed help, so he
turned to an unlikely source, his mother. He sobbed into
the receiver, admitting to his actions, and Clarnel called the police.
When they arrived, Ed was sitting on the front porch
waiting for them. Even though he knew what he'd done
was wrong, that didn't mean he felt bad about it.
He told officers, quote, I just wanted to see what
(17:29):
it felt like to kill grandma.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I just want to highlight that learning that his father
had a new family and that he wasn't welcome there
once he got there was another rejection for him, and
that's important and it's not something to gloss over now.
When Ed says he wanted to see what it felt
like to kill his grandmother, I think that represents a
detachment from understanding, at least psychologically, the gravity of the act,
(17:57):
especially if he has spent a long time fantasized about it.
Fantasy driven offenders fantasize for a significant amount of time
before they act, and because of that, they can become
so focused on curiosity, experimentation, or rehearsal that they rarely
focus on appreciating the reality of their fantasy in practice,
(18:18):
or they've already been practicing on animals and there are
no real consequences that they can transfer to this experience.
And I think because of that, he had to confront
the reality of what he had done and face real
consequences for the first time in his life. But what
I find especially interesting in this moment is that after
he kills his grandparents, he then calls his mother. Despite
(18:42):
all resentment and conflict, She's still his mother. Children don't
simply stop needing their parents, even if their relationship with
them is unhealthy. He didn't call his father, he called
her in moments of crisis. It's actually very common for
people to reach for familiar attachment figures.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
What do you think it says about Ed that he
confessed so quickly. I mean, he just sat there waiting
and he said, you know, I did it. I just
wanted to see what it felt like. Do you think
it's possible that the entire incident was maybe just a
cry for help.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
A cry for help usually implies that the person consciously
intended for someone to intervene before something happened, and I
don't know that that's what this is. I think that
it's true that Ed was at a breaking point. Throughout
his childhood, He's repeatedly experienced conflict, rejection, humiliation, isolation, and
increasingly concerning behavior, which you've highlighted for us. But then
(19:38):
after killing his parents, he calls his mother for direction.
She calls the police and tells him to wait for them.
He listens. In this moment, like we talked about the
weight of the reality setting in, Ed is a teenager
and the only place he has to go is back
with his mother. His father wasn't going to accept him.
So it's possible, and again this is because I've never
(20:01):
evaluated at myself, but it's possible that he chose to
confess to his mother and follow her directions because he
knew she was his only practical and realistic option in
that moment. And if you recall from his childhood, we've
talked about how children who grow up with unpredictable and
volatile parents sometimes learn that obedience, compliance, or appeasement can
(20:23):
help them navigate those relationships more safely, So confessing and
following her instructions could be a reflection of that, especially
because he depends on her heavily. Right now. He doesn't
know what's going to happen after the police get there.
That's what his mother is for, and at the end
of the day, he's a teenager with no money, no resources,
and nowhere else to go.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Whether or not Ed regretted what he'd done, he certainly
regretted where it landed him. Because he was just fifteen
at the time of the murders, he wasn't charged as
an adult, but clearly the court saw something was deeply
wrong with him, so instead he was found to be
mentally ill and committed to the Atascadero State Hospital for
the Criminally Insane, which housed and treated around one thousand,
(21:07):
six hundred mentally ill prisoners. The remaining years of Ed's
young adulthood would now be spent among violent criminals and
sex offenders, and he planned to learn everything he could
from them. In nineteen sixty four, fifteen year old Ed
(21:29):
Kemper was sent to a Tascadero State Hospital for the
Criminally Insane after killing his grandparents. When he arrived, Ed
underwent a series of psychological evaluations. At first, he was
diagnosed with schizophrenia, but Ed's doctors were also fascinated to
discover he had an unusually high IQ, and as they
ran more tests, they began to question their diagnosis. Ed
(21:53):
didn't show signs of delusions or hallucinations like they expected.
He didn't show any evidence of unusual thought patterns either,
so they struggled to form a clear understanding of his
mind's inner workings. But Ed was learning a lot about them.
Throughout all the tests. He paid close attention to the
terminology doctors used. He also noticed that the more interest
(22:15):
he showed in his own mental health, the more they
explained to him, and eventually he earned their trust. Ed's
doctors enlisted his help testing other patients. He even helped
develop new tests to the doctors. This was a major
sign of rehabilitation. In reality, Ed had figured out what
doctors needed to hear to deem someone fit to rejoin society.
(22:37):
He memorized all the right responses, and eventually he tricked
his doctors into believing he was well enough to leave.
In nineteen sixty nine, when Ed was twenty one, he
was officially released on parole after five years at the hospital.
But even after his release, he wasn't totally free because
he had no choice but to move back in with
(22:58):
his mother, Clairenell. Ed's mom had moved to California. She
worked at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She was
even more resentful toward him now that he was a
convicted murderer and had killed their own family members. Ed
tried to find a silver lining to his new living situation.
In the early nineteen seventies, the Ocean Front community was
(23:20):
a hub for college students, hippies, and surfers. The free spirited,
liberated lifestyle was the total opposite of what Ed had
just experienced for the last five years. Ed did his
best to adapt, but he didn't have much of a
social life. His main goal was to become a police
officer at the mental hospital. He'd enjoyed having even just
(23:41):
a little power over the other patients, so he chased
that feeling. He started going to local police hangouts to
chat them up and try and get into their good graces.
Ed felt like he had a shot at becoming an
officer because his juvenile records were sealed. However, things didn't
go his way. He was denied because he exceeded the
(24:01):
height and weight limits. Ed was massive. He stood at
six foot nine, weighing nearly three hundred pounds, and his
appearance didn't just cost him jobs, it made dating even
more difficult. Sometimes women got startled or even screamed when
they saw him simply because of his size. It made
Ed feel like he wasn't even human.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
If Ed has spent years being rejected and humiliated and
mocked by his mother, who repeatedly told him that no
woman would ever want him, and if he's experienced similar
ridicule from his sisters, then this can feel like cumulative rejection.
And that's especially concerning when you pair it with his
interests in power and his history of violence. That's a
(24:48):
risky combination because healthy relationships require vulnerability, consent, and an
understanding of autonomy. Power. On the other hand, something that
he's interested in can allow tell someone to believe that
they can bypass all of those things, leaving no room
for perceived rejection or humiliation. And as always my caveats,
(25:09):
this doesn't mean that rejection causes violence. Millions of people
experience romantic rejection and never become violent. But when rejection
is layered on top of years of humiliation, social isolation, resentment,
and a history of violent behavior and antisocial behavior, it
can become another risk factor that compounds what's already there.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
How do you think he would have reacted to the
fact that the thing preventing him from getting his dream
job his size, was the same thing affecting his dating life.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I think this could have been especially difficult for Ed
because it may have felt like his mother was right.
I mean, remember his mother repeatedly taunted him and told
him that women would never want him. Then if he's
struggling in his dating life and simultaneously being told that
his size is preventing him from pursuing his dream career,
that can be triggering a core belief in him that
(26:05):
can create a tremendous amount of resentment, because now he's
not only angry at his mother for saying those things
in the first place, He's potentially angry that his own
experiences seemed to be confirming them. And if he believes
all of this is tied to something that he can't control,
which is your size. You have absolutely no control over that.
That can also create a sense of powerlessness because it's
(26:29):
an obstacle that feels out of his control. So imagine
what that can create.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Well, instead of focusing his energy on dating, Ed looked
for another job. He eventually got hired as a construction
worker with the Division of Highways, which he seemed to like.
He was still new to the area and it helped
him become familiar with the roadways. Plus he was making
his own money for the first time. He saved up
enough to rent his own apartment and by a yellow
(26:56):
nineteen sixty nine Ford Galaxy, which he used to get
away from Claiarnel as much as possible. Pretty soon, Ed
realized that having a car could be his ticket to
meeting more women too. This was not only the era
of hitchhiking, but there were several colleges in the area,
so a lot of pretty young women were out on
the roads looking for a ride. Ed started picking up
(27:18):
female hitchhikers. He'd drive them as far as the Oregon border,
hundreds of miles away. He didn't do anything other than
try and strike up conversation and maybe flirt a little,
but none of the girls seemed interested, but they did
give him insight into how women perceived him. For example,
he learned that the short, cop like hair style he
had was considered uncool and made girls feel suspicious of him,
(27:41):
so he grew it out, along with a mustache to
give himself more of a hippie look, and he added
a pair of round glasses to seem a little studious.
Ed's makeover seemed to work. By his own estimate, around
a thousand hitchhikers took rides from him. He studied each encounter,
but he wasn't just hoping to improve his dating skills.
(28:01):
After he'd dropped women off, Ed fantasized about what he
wished he'd done to them. He'd been experiencing the urge
to sexually assault someone, and it was becoming harder to fight.
But given his size and his bold car, Ed knew
he'd be easy to identify. He had to find a
way to leave behind no witnesses, and in his mind,
(28:23):
the only way to do that was to kill his victims.
Ed's stay at the mental institution did nothing to quell
his murderous rage. Over time, he prepared for his first attack.
He packed plastic bags, knives, and handcuffs in his trunk.
Then he started driving women off course to remote areas
(28:43):
to see if they'd notice. Eventually, Ed realized how unfamiliar
many people were with the area, and once he felt ready,
he bought a gun and stashed it in his car.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Ed essentially conducted a long term experiment with women, and
according to to what you described, he's given rides to
around one thousand women. That's quite a bit of social
data collected on how women responded to him, what made
them comfortable, what made them uncomfortable, how to present himself,
how to lower suspicion. And we've actually seen this pattern
(29:18):
before at a Taskadero State Hospital, he observed his surroundings closely.
He appeared to learn how professionals thought, what they looked for,
and what to say and do to get discharged. Here
we see much of the same. He's learning how women
think and what behaviors make him seem safe and trustworthy.
It is intelligent. He's organized, calculated and skilled at adapting
(29:42):
him to whatever environment. He studies people, test situations, gathers
information and adjusts his behavior until he's ready. Think of
all the women that he offered rides to that he
did not kill but probably wanted to. That suggests a
degree of control. Only you can't accurately detect his intentions,
(30:04):
which is exactly what he wants. You would just never know.
What does it say about Ed that he could figure
out how to blend in and seem non threatening. Does
this support his former doctors believe that he was highly intelligent?
And do you think that tricking his doctors helped him
know he could get away with all this? We talked
about how children who grow up in unpredictable environments often
(30:26):
become very good at adapting and reading the room because
it can help them anticipate conflict and navigate difficult relationships.
Only with Ed, this is no longer serving a protective
function for him. He's using those skills for personal gain
and deception and ultimately to harm others, which is much
more consistent with psychopathic traits and predatory behavior. Obviously, as
(30:49):
a reminder, psychopathy is not a diagnosis. It's a personality
construct comprised of interpersonal, effective, and behavioral traits. And the
traits that best describe this behave that allow Ed to
blend in and seem so non threatening. Our instrumental use
of others, manipulation, superficial charm, callousness or lack of empathy,
(31:11):
predatory orientation, and deception, and all of these things make
him such a good chameleon.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
While in the spring of nineteen seventy two, Ed was
ready to strike. Around four pm on May seventh, the
twenty three year old cruised around Berkeley looking for his prey.
Soon he came across two Fresno State College roommates, mary
Anne Peshi and Anita Lukesa. They were both eighteen and
had been visiting friends at UC Berkeley. Now they wanted
(31:43):
to hitch a ride to Stanford, about forty miles away.
Anita was five foot one with sun bleached hair and
gold rimmed glasses. Mary Anne was the same height with
dark hair and blue eyes. She'd hitchhiked across Europe before,
so she was much more experienced than Anita, and when
Ed up, she felt hesitant. Something seemed off about him,
(32:04):
but eventually the two got in his car, Anita in
the front seat, mary Anne in the back. It would
be at least an hour long drive to their destination,
so Ed had plenty of opportunities to travel through remote
stretches of terrain. He even asked them questions about the
area to see how familiar they were with their surroundings.
But as two teenagers new to town without cars of
(32:25):
their own, they were out of their depths. About thirty
minutes into their drive, He brought them out to a
secluded road near the city of Hayward, then ed turned
on them. He flashed a nine millimeter Browning automatic pistol
and handcuffed Marianne to a seat belt. He then tied
up Anita and told her to get in the trunk.
She begged him not to hurt them, and Ed slammed
(32:49):
the trunk door shut. Returning to mary Anne, he put
a plastic bag over her head and tried to asphyxiate
her with a terrycloth belt. Despite being bound and outweighed
by nearly two hundred pounds, mary Anne fought viciously. She
chewed through the bag and maneuvered the belt from her
neck to her mouth, cutting it with her teeth. In
(33:11):
a fury, Ed stabbed her repeatedly. Shocked at how she
could survive so many stab wounds. He finally slit her throat.
Ed was shocked at what he'd just done. He looked
at his hands, and they were completely covered in blood.
Anita heard everything from inside the trunk, and once it
(33:34):
was over, Ed opened up the trunk and attacked her too,
Just like mary Anne. She put up a vicious fight,
but in the end Ed took Anita's life as well. Afterward,
he put mary Anne's body in the trunk alongside Anita's.
He started driving home when suddenly he noticed police lights
flashing behind him. He pulled over the officer approached, He
(33:58):
told Ed his tail light was out. Anita must have
kicked it. As the officer got closer, Ed was sure
he'd notice blood splatter in the back seat or on
his hands. He prepared to grab his knife and stab
the officer next, but the officer didn't notice anything amiss.
He sent Ed on his way with two bodies in
(34:19):
his trunk.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
I touched on this concept briefly, but it's a great
place to elaborate. For years, Ed had been fantasizing, planning,
and then behaviorally rehearsing these crimes. But fantasy and reality
are two very different experiences. In fantasy, it's always going
to go exactly how he wants it to. Otherwise it's
(34:41):
not a fantasy. Rarely do they factor in realistic scenarios
like attempted escape. For example, the fact that he seemed
shocked by the amount of blood and by how much
resistance he got suggests just that it could also be
psychologically revealing that he targeted two victims rather than one.
We know so he spent years learning how to lower
(35:02):
suspicion and working on ways to perfect that, so he's
become increasingly confident in his ability to control situations. It's
possible he simply felt confident and capable of managing the
two of them, especially when you consider the messages that
he's internalized with regard to his size and the strength
that comes with that. At the same time, it could
(35:23):
have simply been a matter of opportunity. He'd been building
up to this moment. He had his gun ready, and
he was not willing to wait anymore, so when he
encountered Marianne and Anita, he decided to act on it.
But what's especially concerning, though, is what happens afterward. Despite
being seemingly shocked, he very quickly shifts into problem solving mode.
(35:45):
He continues driving, he starts thinking about how not to
get caught, and he even prepares to kill a police
officer if necessary, which is a very similar behavioral sequence.
After he killed his grandmother, he shot her, he heard
his grand coming home, made a decision to kill him,
killed him, then continued in problem solving mode by calling
(36:06):
his mother and then following her directions. So to me,
this moment after killing mary Anne and Anita is one
of the more psychologically revealing moments because it shows how
rapidly Ed can compartmentalize and then prioritize self preservation, especially
because of what comes next, which is perhaps the more
gratifying part of this process for him.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Ed had committed the unspeakable, and behind closed doors, his
behavior was about to become even more disturbing. In May
of nineteen seventy two, twenty three year old Ed Kemper
murdered two college women, mary Anne Peshi and Anita Lukesa.
(36:52):
The pair had been hitchhiking when Ed picked them up. Afterward,
he put both bodies in the trunk of his car
and drove home, and Ed wasn't done with them. At
his apartment, he dismembered and decapitated both the victims, mirroring
his childhood when he used to remove the heads from
his sister's dolls. Then he sexually assaulted both bodies. He
(37:15):
took polaroid photos while he did it, which he then
stored in plastic bags in his closet. Ed kept his
victim's remains in his home overnight, but he knew the
neighbors would eventually smell the decomposition, so the next morning
he placed them back into his car and drove to
Loma Prieda, the highest peak in the Santa Cruz Mountains. There,
(37:36):
he scattered the women's remains in the forest, keeping mental
notes of where he left them. That way he could
come back and relive everything he'd done. However, Ed hadn't
disposed of all the remains. He kept both victims heads
in his apartment as a souvenir.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Necrophilia is a profound sexual attraction to or desired to
engage in sexual acts with a corpse. It exists on
a spectrum ranging from mild to severe, and Ed falls
on the severe end.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Of that spectrum.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Individuals who engage in these acts are often seeking a
partner who is unresisting, incapable of rejecting them, and entirely
under their control. Now, I want to be very careful
here because None of what I'm about to discuss causes necrophilia,
or in any way excuses any of what Ed has done.
Millions of people experience difficult childhoods, disrupted attachments, family conflict, rejection,
(38:34):
or even institutionalization and never developed these behaviors. Human behavior
is far too complex to draw a straight line from
one life experience to one particular outcome, But what these
experiences can do is provide context. Through Ed's life, We've
repeatedly seen themes of him feeling rejected, humiliated, and powerless,
(38:56):
with disrupted attachments and difficulty forming relationships. We've talked about
his mother and his sisters and the taunting in the home,
his relationship with his grandmother being similar to his mother,
and the fact that he spent many of his formative
adolescent years at a Tascadero State hospital during a time
when many teenagers are developing age appropriate social and romantic experiences.
(39:19):
And now he's continuing to experience rejection from peers and
he has emerging psychopathy traits. Again, none of these experiences
explain or excuse his behavior, but when we step back
and we look at the broader picture, we can begin
to see why themes like control, fantasy, fulfillment, and possession
repeatedly emerge throughout his crimes. A corpse cannot reject him,
(39:43):
humiliate him, criticize him, or leave him. It offers a
level of control that simply doesn't exist in any healthy
human relationship.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Okay, I have to ask why do you think Ed
kept his victims' heads? And why do you think he
took photos as he violently their corpses. What can we
glean about the way he seemed to be documenting things
and keeping souvenirs?
Speaker 3 (40:06):
This is likely trophy collection. Trophy collection is primarily about
reliving the fantasy, allowing them to mentally replay every aspect
of it as many times as they want for their
own gratification. It can be about possessing the victims, allowing
them to extend their control and dominance over them. Or
it can be about a validation of power similar to
(40:27):
a hunter with taxidermy. Or it can be a way
of building a ritual. And if you think about Ed's
history of rejection, then this is likely about possession and
his distorted way of maintaining a connection to his victims,
but on his terms.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
As Ed enjoyed the high of his gruesome acts. Mary
Anne and Anita's families did everything imaginable to find them.
They filed police reports, put up flyers, and even hired
private detectives. But at the time, California was rampant with
hitchhikers or other young traps who police considered runaways. No
one except Ed had any idea what a horrific end
(41:06):
mary Anne and Anita had faced. But that was about
to change. Months past and mary Anne and Anita's heads
had decomposed. All that was left was their skulls. Eventually,
he decided to get rid of them in the mountains,
and in August of nineteen seventy two, some hitch hikers
found mary Anne's. Police used dental records to identify her,
(41:29):
and in August of nineteen seventy two, some hikers found
mary Anne's. Police used dental records to identify her, and
now authorities and the victim's families realized the nightmarish reality.
It was clear that Marianne's head had been removed by
another person, and people believed the same had happened to Anita. However,
(41:50):
there was no evidence to lead police to a suspect. Meanwhile,
Ed wasn't worried about getting caught even if the authorities
did have evidence. Forensic DNA testing wasn't around at the time,
so he knew he hadn't left any valuable clues behind,
and one month after Mary Anne's skull was found, Ed
felt the urge to kill again. On September fourteenth, nineteen
(42:14):
seventy two, he went hunting for his next victim. He
spotted fifteen year old Ico Coup at a bus stop
in Berkeley. Ko had missed her bus and she was
running late to a dance class, so she held out
a sign to try and hitchhike a ride. Ed spotted
her and pulled up in his yellow Ford. He offered
a drive Ico wherever she wanted to go, and she accepted.
(42:39):
Despite her young age, Ko was already establishing herself as
a ballerina and traditional Korean dancer. That evening, she left
home excited that she'd been selected to perform at a
dance festival. So as Ed drove, Ko's thoughts were preoccupied
with her future. It wasn't until Ed reached the mountains
above Santa Cruz that I Jiko realized they were way
(43:01):
off course, but it was too late. Ed pulled out
his gun, put tape over her mouth, and ordered her
into the back seat. Terrified, Icho did as she was told.
Too large to jump into the back seat himself, Ed
got out of the car and accidentally locked himself out.
Will never know why, but Icho let him back into
(43:23):
the car. When he got in the back seat, he
suffocated her until she passed out. While she was unconscious,
he sexually assaulted her. Then when she began to come too,
he strangled her to death. He put her body in
the trunk, then drove home, but not before making a
couple of stops. First, he stopped at a bar for
(43:44):
a few beers. While he drank, Ed thought about his mother.
He wondered if she'd be able to sense he was
behaving differently after what he'd done, so he got back
into his car and drove to her house. They chatted
for about thirty minutes, but she didn't seems suspicious at all,
so Ed finally headed home.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Ed has repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of observing others, gathering information,
and adapting accordingly. He's consistently trying to test if he
can fit in, whether that is adjusting his appearance or
his post offense behavior. And this has helped him blend in.
The Only person who has ever known how truly dangerous
(44:27):
he is, or has warned others about what he's capable of,
is his mother. She warned his father that he would
kill his grandparents. So the fact that he decided to
test this out with her is rather telling, because if she,
of all people, can't tell what he has just done,
(44:47):
then I think to him, his presentation is a success.
It passed the test. Whatever behavior or demeanor he's used
to deceive her is working. Ed is learning how to
hide in planes sight.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
What do you make of the fact that Ed made
two stops, first at the bar and then at his
mom's house right after killing ko and while her body
was still in the trunk of his car. Do you
think he just enjoyed the feeling of being around people
while keeping this secret.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Yeah, it's possible he was gaining something from this, for sure.
Some organized serial offenders get psychological gratification from successfully deceiving
others and avoiding suspicion. And here he is sitting among
them having drinks while Iico's body is in his trunk,
and everyone around him is none the wiser that can
give him a feeling of mastery because he knows something
(45:36):
that no one else does, and more importantly, he successfully
concealed it. And I think that's also why he wanted
to expand on this feeling by testing this with his
mother next. I also think this speaks to his compartmentalization
that he can so easily go from murdering a young
woman like that in such a horrific way after assaulting
her to engaging in ordinary social interactions as though nothing happened,
(46:00):
and every successful experience like this is going to reinforce
his confidence even more.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
It's possible Ed enjoyed being able to blend back into
society after committing a gruesome murder, and after leaving his
mom's house, he still wasn't done. The next morning, he
spent about four hours dismembering Iko's body and removing her head.
The entire process excited him sexually, and he assaulted his
victim's remains numerous times. When he was done, Ed did
(46:30):
the same thing as before. He kept Iko's head as
well as her hands, and disposed of the rest in
the mountains. While in the forest, Ed also looked through
Iko's belongings. He found her address and decided to drive by.
That's when he realized she came from a humble home.
Ed felt extremely disappointed in himself. He felt that women
(46:51):
from wealthier backgrounds deserved what he did to them, but
not girls like Iiko. And while Ko wasn't rich, she
was loved. Her mother had called the police just hours
after she should have returned home, but they told her
Iko had probably run away and refused to help her.
All the while, Ed was driving around town with the
young girl's head in the trunk of his car, including
(47:15):
on his way to a psychiatric evaluation. After seeing Iko's house,
Ed drove one hundred and sixty miles to Fresno to
meet with court appointed psychiatrists. His juvenile records had been
temporarily sealed when he was released, but he wanted them
permanently sealed so he could try again to become a
police officer. At the appointment, Ed said all the right
(47:37):
things and passed the evaluation with flying colors. Doctors believed
he posed no violent threat to anyone, and they recommended
his records remain sealed. Just like that, the murder of
Ed's grandparents continued to be sealed away from the authorities.
He felt completely invincible. To celebrate, he bought a new
(47:59):
gun in January of nineteen seventy three. That same day,
he picked out his next victim, nineteen year old Cynthia Shoal,
a Santa Cruz local and Cabrio College student. Cynthia was
looking for a ride to class, and Ed offered her one,
but instead of taking her to the campus, Ed drove
(48:19):
Cynthia to an isolated area somewhere between Corolidos and Freedom
in Santa Cruz County. He pulled out his new twenty
two caliber pistol and forced her into the trunk. Then
he shot her once in the head. Ed intended to
act out his usual post murder ritual, but instead of
bringing Cynthia's remains to his apartment, he drove to his mother's.
(48:44):
While she wasn't around, he dismembered the remains and assaulted
his latest victim's corpse. Later, Ed disposed of Cynthia's remains
across Big sur. He had no idea that this time
he was leaving behind crucial evidence. Thanks so much for listening.
(49:18):
Come back next time. As Andrea joins doctor Engels and
me for the conclusion of our deep dive into the
mind of Ed Kemper.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Looking forward to it. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is
a crime House original powered by Paved Studios. Here at
crime House, we want to thank each and every one
of you for your support. If you like what you
heard today, reach out on Instagram at crime House, don't
forget to rate, review and follow serial Killers and Murderous
Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes
(49:46):
a difference.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
And to enhance your listening experience, join crime House Plus
and get both parts of every story dropped on the
same Monday, completely ad free, no waiting three days for
part two, plus crime House bonus episodes every month. To join,
go to Crimehouse plus dot com, or if you listen
non Apple podcasts, tap try Free at the top of
(50:08):
the serial Killers and Murderous Minds page. Serial Killers and
Murderous Minds is hosted by me Vanessa Richardson and forensic
psychologist doctor Tristan Engels and is a crime House original
powered by Paved Studios. This episode was brought to life
by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team, Max Cutler,
(50:29):
Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertzovsky, Alyssa Fox,
Sarah Batchelor, Sarah Tardiff, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
This was part one of the Ed Kemper Deep Dive
from serial Killers and Murderous Minds. Part two picks up
with Kemper's final most personal kill, plus an extended conversation
between me and doctor Engels breaking the whole case down.
Here's the important part. Part two is not in the
speed To hear it, you need to follow serial Killers
and Murderous Minds. Search serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever
(51:06):
you're listening right now and hit follow
Host
Andrea Gunning
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