April 2, 2026 • 34 mins
Seven years have passed since Saskia’s discovery. This episode is a reflection on how Saskia got here – and how she's trying to move forward.
Find Jessica Baum’s books Safe and Anxiously Attached here.
Content Warning for rape, tech-enabled sexual abuse, nonconsensual intimate image distribution, and mental health struggles.
If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Follow our newsletter and join the Betrayal community at betrayal.substack.com.
For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE.
Every state has a domestic violence coalition, and many counties also have resources available. If you’re looking for help, go onto your county’s website to see what resources are available locally, or search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, Andre here, I have some exciting news to share.
ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology,
which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal
Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear
from people who have never spoken before, and actually see
where the story took place. We are so proud and
(00:23):
excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal,
Secrets and Lies and you can watch it every Sunday
at ten pm Eastern Standard Time, nine pm Central. Please
check it out. Throughout the years we've worked on this show,
our team has talked to hundreds of people who've been
(00:44):
through some kind of betrayal. Some of their stories are
about abuse left undiscovered or unchecked for years. Others are
about financial crimes or secret identities. But across all of
these stories there are similarities, like in the way people
talk about the aftermath and the moment everything changed.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Our life blew up. On April eleventh, April twenty twenty
two is when D Day happened and everything this blew up.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
All of this blew off our life, our kids' lives,
our community.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
He completely ruined my family.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
For so many people, a Betrayal is an ending, a
death of the life they knew. I often get asked
if it's depressing working on stories like this, day in,
day out, and the truth is a lot of the
time it's the opposite, because as much as these are
stories about the moment of destruction, they're also about what
(01:43):
happens after that moment, help people get up the next day,
how they rebuild after the smoke clears. I don't think
it's an exaggeration to say a bomb dropped on Saskia's life,
and yet today, seven years after her discovery, she's still standing.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I think it would surprise him to see how much
stronger I've gotten, even since his attempt to totally destroy me.
I was not going to be just a dispensable person,
someone that you can use and abuse and then discard.
His focus was on my weaknesses and he didn't realize
(02:30):
how strong I am.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season five, episode ten,
Waking Up. Before we talk about where Saska is today,
there's something I want to share. It's a bit of
a left turn, but it has a lot to do
with why I do this work and why I felt
(03:08):
drawn to Saskia's story In college, I was raped. At
the time, I was going through a really bad depression,
and much in the same way that Saskia did, I
drank to cope. One night, when I was drunk, a
person who I considered a friend assaulted me. It wasn't
until the next day, when I woke up that I
(03:31):
knew something had happened. For years, I blamed myself. Maybe
I let him on, Maybe I deserved it. It's a
feeling a lot of victims of sexual violence experience, and
like a lot of victims, those feelings kept me silent
for a long time. I questioned myself and my understanding
(03:51):
of what I experienced. But that wasn't the case for Saskia.
As soon as she found out what Mike did to her,
she saw the truth clearly.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy.
I said, no, no, I have mental health issues. You're
a predator and you're a monster.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
This is something that's always struck me about Saskia's story,
and it's actually pretty rare. Immediately she knew the gravity
of what Mike had done. She went to the authorities
to protect herself and to keep others safe. And then
she took the stand and stood up to him.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
You're a dangerous person who prays on vulnerable and trusting people.
You're sexual predator, Michael loving Good. You do have this
inner strength that comes out at times.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That's Carrie Hartman, one of Betrayal's producers.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I really don't know wherever it came from. I've always
admired that strength in Saskia, and back in those early
days after her discovery, her bravery was clear to everyone
around her. It looked like reporting the crime, taking the stand,
seeing her divorce trial through, no matter how many insults
(05:14):
she had to face. But there's more than one way
to be brave. This came up with Ashley Enderfirth, the
original prosecutor on Soaski's case, at the end of our interview,
just before we stopped recording, there was one last thing
Ashley wanted to say.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
We talked about how brave Soaskia is to have come
forward and to have been willing to go through this process.
But when you experience something like this, bravery takes different forms.
While it is undoubtedly brave to come forward, sometimes bravery
is just getting up the next morning and living your life.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
This was something I needed to hear and I imagine
some listeners out there need to hear it too. Bravery
isn't always about pursuing criminal action. I had to understand
that after what happened to me, keeping my grades up,
graduating and just getting on with my life was the
bravest version of myself. And today that form of bravery
(06:16):
is what Saskia is practicing too.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Kitties, Chicky, the Rito, Hippie, Pumpkin.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
The days of pursuing justice are now behind her. These days,
for Saskia, bravery looks like getting out of bed and
starting her day, feeding her pets, going to work, taking
a walk.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
After the discovery, I wasn't able to do anything. I
wasn't able to work. I was constantly on hyper alert.
It really felt like this is it and that there's
no light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Nowadays, she's not only back to normal routine, she's creating
that routine for herself for the first time in her
adult life.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Seven years ago, I was like a baby just starting out,
just learning to crawl, and learning to crawl was learning
what I would choose to do on my own. I
had never really been single until a few years ago,
and just learning when I'm by myself, what do I
choose to do? What do I choose to eat, what
do I choose to watch? And to then incorporate that
(07:32):
into who I am. For me to get my agency
back and be able to do what is good for
me is where my power lies now.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Before everything happened, everyone thought Saskia and needed someone like
Mike to save her. Here's her sister, Marisa.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
I've always viewed her as my baby sister, as a
very strong person, but somebody who's vulnerable, and he gave
her a sense of stability.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Today Marisa sees all that Saskia is capable of on
her own.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
She's standing alone, she's doing life, She's creating her own stability.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Now, there's been so much change in the right direction.
But there's a flip side to all this growth.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I feel like I've started spending most of my time alone.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
It's not just that Saskia is taking time for herself.
As Marisa told us.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
I would say that she socially isolates more so than
she ever did.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Saskia has her kids, but they're older now and most
of the time they're out of the house or with
their dad. She works from home and stays there through
the evening with her pets to keep her company. Since
finding out about Mike's crimes, her world's gotten a lot smaller.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I was so devastated and shocked by everything that how
and that I had no choice but to start to
protect myself a little bit. And that's something that is empowering,
right to know that I can make my own choices
and I can stay as safe as I need to
or want to.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
But by putting up these walls, she's not only protecting
herself against bad people, she's isolating herself from friends and family.
Here's Marisa again.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
She's been stuck in that fight mode for so long.
I want her to be open to the good in people,
and I want her to know what that feels like,
and to know that he didn't take it from her.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
When my reporting team and I went to Maryland to
meet Saskia, we noticed those walls too. We'd spent months
talking to her in advance, explaining the production process and
what to expect. She was fully on board in all
of her inner views. She was open, but whenever we
weren't recording, the walls went back up in a way
(10:07):
I'd never encountered before with other stories. For instance, during
our reporting trips, we usually take our storytellers out to
dinner with our team. Saski was the first person I've
worked with who didn't really want to go. That was
a real learning moment for me, the idea that going
out to dinner with us could be hard it was.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I stopped doing those things for a long time. It's
been really hard for me to get back out there.
I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I
don't think that I could ever fully be confident that
(10:50):
someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was
so sure that he was a good person and that
you love me. How can I ever get to the
point where I truly don't fear that?
Speaker 1 (11:07):
On this show, we're asking people who've experienced a traumatic
betrayal to trust us with their story. It always takes
months of building rapport to get to that point. By
the time we got to Maryland, Saskia was ready to
share her story, but we questioned if she was ready
to really put herself out there with this show. So
(11:27):
I asked her about that. I said, to you, we
don't have to do this.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
We don't have to go forward with this.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You can always circle back when you are ready. How
did that occur for you?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
It made me feel a little bit vulnerable, like they're
seeing how hard this is for me, Like what am
I doing? This is so difficult.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Part of her thought about ending the whole project right there. Instead,
she made a choice, the choice to keep going.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I feel like this was the journey that was put
in for me and I was gonna see it through,
regardless of how difficult it was.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
For years, Saskia has received support from a psychiatrist and
other mental health providers, but in choosing to do this podcast,
we wanted to ensure she had extra support, so we
connected her with Jessica Beaum.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
I'm a psychotherapist, a licensed mental health counselor. I'm an
author of two books, Anxiously Attached and Safe.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
If you've been listening to our show for a while,
you might recognize jess from season two where she worked
with our subject, Ashley Linton.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I studied interpersonal neural biology, and that is a study
of how we form as infants and young beings in
relationship with others. That's how we form our attachment patterns,
and I work a lot with my clients on getting
into their body and starting to be with their nervous
system and starting to connect all those dots.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Following our reporting trip, Jess and Saskia started meeting weekly.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
And I'm going to continue working with her to the
other side of this whenever she gets to the other side.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Often, Jess and Saskia talked about emotions that came up
throughout the production process. It took strength to report the
crime and get through those early days, but in many
ways that strength was a reflex. She saw no other
path than to fight this choice, to revisit what happened
to her. To trust other people with her story has
(13:53):
demanded a different kind of strength. Jess and Saskia agreed
to record a few of their sessions. Saskia listened back
to these recordings, and now she wants other people to
hear them too, in the hopes that her breakthroughs might
help somebody else.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
In the beginning, when I met with the producers, it
felt profound, but it also was so scary and so
uncomfortable that I honestly was like a little kid, like
I hid my face in my shirt because it felt
so strange receiving compassion and empathy and sympathy about what
(14:35):
Mike did.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
To me, and you had to start to recognize how
bad it was.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, how hard that was. I never felt important enough
to really do the deep diving into me and my
story in my life. It feels wrong to me because
I'm not used to doing that.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
And we have to get in touch with all the
pain to do that.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, that's probably what makes me feel like I want.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
To rite one.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think that being vulnerable like this and feeling it,
part of you wants to do the work, and the
part of you is so uncomfortable with showing up for it.
And I think that's actually a very normal part of
this experience, or the re experiencing of it all.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I totally agree. On Sunday night, we had a really
difficult recording session for the podcast. I was talking to.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Kitln Caitlyn is one of our producers.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And she saw that I visibly got tearful and then
started crying. And Caitlyn's response, of course, was empathy and like,
if this is too much for you, let's stop, And
I said no, like I need to feel these feelings.
It's hard, but I know that this is necessary.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
It's harder before it gets easier. Yep, that's what I'm finding,
And you know, Soski, some people don't have the capacity.
It takes a lot to slow down and feel.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it's been really hard a few years. I'm proud
of myself for taking the time to be by myself
and come to some realizations. But it's a scary thing
to do at forty seven years old. I wish that
it would have happened to that earlier for me, so
I could have avoided some of these consequences.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I don't know how many clients I have that are
like forty or fifty or fifty five who say the
same thing, like I wish I could have done this sooner.
I remember asking my mentor once when I got out
of a really unhealthy relationship, I said, did I need
to go through this pretty traumatic relationship to have this
healing process occur? Like? Was there another path? Sometimes we're
(16:51):
just not ready to go there until things get bad
enough or we need a wake up call.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, right, we have no choice but to slow down
or stop and deal with things.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
In slowing down, Saskia is not only facing these emotions
coming up through the podcast or sitting with her trauma
from Mike. She's going back further to her childhood to
understand why she gravitated towards someone like Mike and to
try to break that pattern going forward. Remember, Saskia grew
(17:24):
up as the youngest of four. Her father struggled with
mental illness, and her mom was busy keeping the family afloat.
It had a real impact on her. She always had
a lot of friends, but on the inside, I still.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Felt so alone and like a freak. In school, I
remember crying in the bathrooms and not really knowing why.
Looking back, I was really struggling with depression and anxiety.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
A big part of why she turned to alcohol.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I remember the first time getting drunk and how good
it felt. It helped me cope with a lot of
things that I hadn't dealt with yet, were under the surface,
stuff from my childhood.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Doesn't it make sense? That's part of the human desires.
We go towards what feels good, what releases chemicals, what
feels a sense of belonging, And you weren't getting any
of that at home, right.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Maybe that's what I did in my relationships too. I
didn't get what I needed emotionally, and so that's always
what I was searching for, that feeling sure Mike was
really the first person that I thought actually loved me
and was safe. It would be awful even if it
(18:53):
was a stranger who did this to me or someone
I had just met, but the fact that this was
my partner for seven years.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Supposed to be the safest person to you.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, he was my best friend. With him, I
felt really cared for, and I've never felt that before
in my life.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
When you grow up with childhood neglect and trauma, that
very young part of you is looking to be taken
care of, yeah, and attracted to someone who appears safe,
who appears like they're going to take care of that
little girl, and it ends up becoming a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Mike presented as someone different, He presented as someone safer,
He presented as not your normal type. And it's almost
like a fish on a hook. Your inner child is
projecting the perfect parent onto this person. This is going
to be the solution, because now this person is safe,
They're meeting all your needs. And the truth is your
(20:01):
attachment needs were still underneath the surface.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
One hundred percent. I mean, you've helped me realize that
I was seeking validation and feeling yeah taken care of.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
And he was in a position of power because he
met those needs so well.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
For you, looking at how I got to this place
has been really important because I don't need saving.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
For the first time in her life, Saskia is not
dating through this work in therapy, She's breaking patterns, sitting
with her pain, putting herself first.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I feel like I'm giving myself as much space and
time as I need to heal. I don't have time
or energy to prioritize somebody else over me right now,
and that's when the healing has really started. I feel
like I need to be able to trust myself before
I'll be able to trust anybody else. What I do
(21:06):
know now is that I can do it on my own.
If somebody makes me uncomfortable or somebody isn't concerned with
my feelings, I can walk away and I can still
be okay. I just wish it wasn't such a hard
lesson for me to learn, but I don't think there
was an easier one that would have hook you up
(21:28):
ook me up.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
As I was listening to Saskia and Jess's last recorded session,
I heard something that made me smile. Saska was looking
back on the early days of working with us and
how much has changed since then.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I'm definitely a people pleaser. If other people like me,
that makes me happy, and with this podcast, there was
a lot of that. Like I didn't know what support
to expect, so it was all very kind.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Of scary, but slowly, through lots of interviews, check ins,
and visits, our team earned Sask's trust. Today, our conversations
are as much about what happened to her as they
are about what shows we're watching. But our pets are
doing good days and bad days at work. Saska's walls
are down, and to me that's an honor. Are really
(22:40):
the first new people Saske has let into her world
in a long time.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
The support that I felt from working on this podcast,
it's been something that I've never felt before, the empathy
and the understanding. It's crazy how it happened, and I
don't really believe in fate, but it was just what
I need didn't to deal with it and heal and.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Yeah, do all the hard work. I know it's a reexperiencing,
but I think it's the re experiencing with the support
that makes the difference.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Once the project ends, we're not going anywhere, but just
want Saska to take this experience of learning to trust
us and translate it into trusting others again in her
everyday life.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
The way to heal this, Saskia, is now through the
work with me, but also other people who you can
be vulnerable with, who see you, who hold this sadness
with you. Instead of finding a new man and a
new solution, we need to slow down and start to
learn what's going on inside and be with our core wounds.
(23:56):
And a way to break this pattern is to lean
on other people who don't medicate the trauma, but can
be with you in your pain.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I do have people that I knew care about me.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Who's one of those people my sister.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I think I used to feel like she wanted to
be there, but it was just one more thing in
her life that she felt like she wanted to fix.
Now she kind of asks like, do you just want
me to be here? So listen.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
That is literally the only thing we need is we
just need people to be with us.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
In addition to Marisa, Saskia has her friends, the ones
you've heard from throughout the season, but it hasn't always
felt easy to open up to them.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
I've always put a lot of pressure on myself not
to show how much pain I'm in.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I think there's a piece to trauma survivors where we
are not used to people who accept us unconditionally and
like us when we're messy and can be with all
our parts, so we're like I have to perform.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I would never reach out to a friend event I
wouldn't answer my phone unless I was in a good mood.
I would look internally and be like, how can I
fix myself so I can be okay for other people.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Before Mike, Saskio was the silly, bubbly one in her
friend group no matter what she was going through on
the inside. But after her discovery.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
There was no putting on a happy face. Everything went
dark for me and being around people that just had
normal lives or happy relationships or we're talking about I
don't know what they bought at the store. It was
easier for me to stay away.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
But connection is a two way street. Sometimes her friends
haven't known the best way to show up for Saskia,
if they should or could talk about what happened when
we were in Maryland. I brought that up with Saski's
friend head.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Do you guys as a friend group talk about hard things?
Speaker 5 (26:05):
No?
Speaker 6 (26:07):
Oh, the move or phrase app not with the person
in the room.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 6 (26:13):
I think a lot of us are people pleasers, and
so we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and it's
not meant to be like malice or like gossipy or something.
It's anyone concern, but not having the confidence to bring
it up directly with the person.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
There's also the guilt her friends feel about what happened
to Saskia. Looking back now knowing what Mike was doing,
Heather feels a lot of anger at herself. Remember she
was the friend that told Saskia to go through with
the wedding after the first time Saskia saw something on
Mike's laptop.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
I wish I would have given her that out and
been the friend that can be like, you don't have
to do this if you don't want to, Like, if
you don't feel like something's right, you don't have to
go through with this.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
It's uncomfortable to look back and wonder if you could
have done anything to differently. That guilt can make it
hard to talk about what happened. But there's one more
reason I think these friends don't talk about what Saskia
went through. It's the reason why for years there weren't
stories like this one out there, and it's a big
part of why it took so long for men like
(27:17):
Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, and Bill Cosby to be held accountable.
We've all been taught not to talk about rape. It's
too violent, too gross, something meant to be kept private,
especially when it's perpetrated by a good guy, a powerful guy,
or a partner. And in Saskia's case, there's digital evidence,
(27:40):
the photos and videos of her rape that will live
on on the internet forever. It's a horrific, ongoing part
of Mike's crimes, one that is hard for anyone to
talk about, even Saskia.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I've been not dealing with that, not thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
You feel like trying to block it out of your
psyche is how you've been protecting yourself from it.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, for sure, I don't think I knew how hard
it was going to be, how much I had suppressed
in this to just.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Get by Maurica can see the effect these images have
on Saskia.
Speaker 5 (28:19):
She's embarrassed about the idea of her being on display,
and that makes her want to shrink. But I think
the side of her that wants to stand up for
herself and will feel no shame is stronger.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Saskia knows the shame isn't hers to carry. She wants
to talk about what happened to her. That's why she's
doing this podcast, dragging all this out into the light.
Despite how upsetting it can feel, she's being brave. For
their part, her friends are starting to do the same.
They're showing up for Saskia and talking more about what
(28:59):
happened on the podcast, but even more so with each other.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I can't tell you how many good tears I've cried
realizing how much people care about me. It's nice, like
I'm you know, I'm growing, and also I think my
relationships have kind of transformed.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Also, she's finding new stability. But the people who've been
there all along. On our last night in Maryland, Saskett
invited all her people over for a party. In the
days before, she almost canceled the whole thing. It had
(29:37):
just been a full week of interviews.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I was so anxious about doing a good job in
telling my story that my nervous system was just in
overdrive and it felt like too much to go out
or entertain.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
We assured her she didn't need to throw a party
on our account. Her people would understand too, but she
wanted to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I want to actually enjoy life, and I don't feel
like I always have to show up with a happy face.
I can just be me.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So she gathered everyone on her back porch, her siblings,
her friends.
Speaker 5 (30:18):
I want to hear.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
I want to hear what she's saying.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
It was a tail end of summer, the sun was
setting and the cicadas were in full swing. Everyone sat
in a circle of Adirondack chairs, eating cake and trading
funny stories from growing up.
Speaker 6 (30:33):
We heard Georgetown, so Bridget throw all of us down
to Georgetown.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I could tell it was a lot for Soskia. She
looked tired and she couldn't seem to sit still in
her chair. But in the midst of all of this,
I heard something the day so we.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
Were like, oh, so, then we had to back down again.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And Soskia is laugh. It was mentioned a lot in
interviews with her friends and family. But this was the
first time we really heard it for ourselves, and throughout
the night we kept hearing it. There's no clean end
to the journey Saskia is on. She'll never reach a
(31:15):
point when she's fully healed. No one does after betrayal.
I think healing is a series of smaller winds. Maybe
there will come a day when she'll wake up without
her trauma on her mind. Maybe she'll call her sister
or a friend the next time she feels alone. But
for now, just having moments like this again, when she
(31:38):
can just be with the people that love her and laugh,
that's enough.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Seven years ago, I really thought that my life was over.
I felt humiliated, and I still think that that's true.
Today I feel exposed, but that, to me is not
as important as exposing somebody who thought that they could
(32:05):
just operate in the dark for a while. He pulled
me into that darkness, and I refuse to live there.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
For resources on sexual violence, visit rain dot org slash betrayal.
That's r ai n N dot org slash betrayal. You
can also get free confidential twenty four seven support through
Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text hope to six
four sixty seven three or call one eight hundred sixty
(32:46):
five six. Hope you are not alone. If you would
like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want
to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at
gmail dot com. That is Betrayal at gmail dot com,
or follow us on Instagram at betrayal Pod. To access
additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join
(33:10):
our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful
for your support. One way to show support is by
subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to
rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal
is the production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass
(33:31):
Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is
executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and
produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden.
Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is
Monique Leboard. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are
(33:54):
Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo, Production management by Kristin melcurritional
support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry
and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional
editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia,
her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson
(34:16):
and Carrie Lieberman. The trial's theme is composed by Oliver Bains.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Music library provided by
Speaker 1 (34:21):
My Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,
Hi everyone, Andre here, I have some exciting news to share.
ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology,
which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal
Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear
from people who have never spoken before, and actually see
where the story took place. We are so proud and
(00:23):
excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal,
Secrets and Lies and you can watch it every Sunday
at ten pm Eastern Standard Time, nine pm Central. Please
check it out. Throughout the years we've worked on this show,
our team has talked to hundreds of people who've been
(00:44):
through some kind of betrayal. Some of their stories are
about abuse left undiscovered or unchecked for years. Others are
about financial crimes or secret identities. But across all of
these stories there are similarities, like in the way people
talk about the aftermath and the moment everything changed.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Our life blew up. On April eleventh, April twenty twenty
two is when D Day happened and everything this blew up.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
All of this blew off our life, our kids' lives,
our community.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
He completely ruined my family.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
For so many people, a Betrayal is an ending, a
death of the life they knew. I often get asked
if it's depressing working on stories like this, day in,
day out, and the truth is a lot of the
time it's the opposite, because as much as these are
stories about the moment of destruction, they're also about what
(01:43):
happens after that moment, help people get up the next day,
how they rebuild after the smoke clears. I don't think
it's an exaggeration to say a bomb dropped on Saskia's life,
and yet today, seven years after her discovery, she's still standing.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I think it would surprise him to see how much
stronger I've gotten, even since his attempt to totally destroy me.
I was not going to be just a dispensable person,
someone that you can use and abuse and then discard.
His focus was on my weaknesses and he didn't realize
(02:30):
how strong I am.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season five, episode ten,
Waking Up. Before we talk about where Saska is today,
there's something I want to share. It's a bit of
a left turn, but it has a lot to do
with why I do this work and why I felt
(03:08):
drawn to Saskia's story In college, I was raped. At
the time, I was going through a really bad depression,
and much in the same way that Saskia did, I
drank to cope. One night, when I was drunk, a
person who I considered a friend assaulted me. It wasn't
until the next day, when I woke up that I
(03:31):
knew something had happened. For years, I blamed myself. Maybe
I let him on, Maybe I deserved it. It's a
feeling a lot of victims of sexual violence experience, and
like a lot of victims, those feelings kept me silent
for a long time. I questioned myself and my understanding
(03:51):
of what I experienced. But that wasn't the case for Saskia.
As soon as she found out what Mike did to her,
she saw the truth clearly.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy.
I said, no, no, I have mental health issues. You're
a predator and you're a monster.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
This is something that's always struck me about Saskia's story,
and it's actually pretty rare. Immediately she knew the gravity
of what Mike had done. She went to the authorities
to protect herself and to keep others safe. And then
she took the stand and stood up to him.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
You're a dangerous person who prays on vulnerable and trusting people.
You're sexual predator, Michael loving Good. You do have this
inner strength that comes out at times.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
That's Carrie Hartman, one of Betrayal's producers.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I really don't know wherever it came from. I've always
admired that strength in Saskia, and back in those early
days after her discovery, her bravery was clear to everyone
around her. It looked like reporting the crime, taking the stand,
seeing her divorce trial through, no matter how many insults
(05:14):
she had to face. But there's more than one way
to be brave. This came up with Ashley Enderfirth, the
original prosecutor on Soaski's case, at the end of our interview,
just before we stopped recording, there was one last thing
Ashley wanted to say.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
We talked about how brave Soaskia is to have come
forward and to have been willing to go through this process.
But when you experience something like this, bravery takes different forms.
While it is undoubtedly brave to come forward, sometimes bravery
is just getting up the next morning and living your life.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
This was something I needed to hear and I imagine
some listeners out there need to hear it too. Bravery
isn't always about pursuing criminal action. I had to understand
that after what happened to me, keeping my grades up,
graduating and just getting on with my life was the
bravest version of myself. And today that form of bravery
(06:16):
is what Saskia is practicing too.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Kitties, Chicky, the Rito, Hippie, Pumpkin.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
The days of pursuing justice are now behind her. These days,
for Saskia, bravery looks like getting out of bed and
starting her day, feeding her pets, going to work, taking
a walk.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
After the discovery, I wasn't able to do anything. I
wasn't able to work. I was constantly on hyper alert.
It really felt like this is it and that there's
no light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Nowadays, she's not only back to normal routine, she's creating
that routine for herself for the first time in her
adult life.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Seven years ago, I was like a baby just starting out,
just learning to crawl, and learning to crawl was learning
what I would choose to do on my own. I
had never really been single until a few years ago,
and just learning when I'm by myself, what do I
choose to do? What do I choose to eat, what
do I choose to watch? And to then incorporate that
(07:32):
into who I am. For me to get my agency
back and be able to do what is good for
me is where my power lies now.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Before everything happened, everyone thought Saskia and needed someone like
Mike to save her. Here's her sister, Marisa.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
I've always viewed her as my baby sister, as a
very strong person, but somebody who's vulnerable, and he gave
her a sense of stability.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Today Marisa sees all that Saskia is capable of on
her own.
Speaker 5 (08:07):
She's standing alone, she's doing life, She's creating her own stability.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Now, there's been so much change in the right direction.
But there's a flip side to all this growth.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I feel like I've started spending most of my time alone.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
It's not just that Saskia is taking time for herself.
As Marisa told us.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
I would say that she socially isolates more so than
she ever did.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Saskia has her kids, but they're older now and most
of the time they're out of the house or with
their dad. She works from home and stays there through
the evening with her pets to keep her company. Since
finding out about Mike's crimes, her world's gotten a lot smaller.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I was so devastated and shocked by everything that how
and that I had no choice but to start to
protect myself a little bit. And that's something that is empowering,
right to know that I can make my own choices
and I can stay as safe as I need to
or want to.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
But by putting up these walls, she's not only protecting
herself against bad people, she's isolating herself from friends and family.
Here's Marisa again.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
She's been stuck in that fight mode for so long.
I want her to be open to the good in people,
and I want her to know what that feels like,
and to know that he didn't take it from her.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
When my reporting team and I went to Maryland to
meet Saskia, we noticed those walls too. We'd spent months
talking to her in advance, explaining the production process and
what to expect. She was fully on board in all
of her inner views. She was open, but whenever we
weren't recording, the walls went back up in a way
(10:07):
I'd never encountered before with other stories. For instance, during
our reporting trips, we usually take our storytellers out to
dinner with our team. Saski was the first person I've
worked with who didn't really want to go. That was
a real learning moment for me, the idea that going
out to dinner with us could be hard it was.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I stopped doing those things for a long time. It's
been really hard for me to get back out there.
I don't think that I can ever trust anybody. I
don't think that I could ever fully be confident that
(10:50):
someone wasn't misleading me or manipulating me because I was
so sure that he was a good person and that
you love me. How can I ever get to the
point where I truly don't fear that?
Speaker 1 (11:07):
On this show, we're asking people who've experienced a traumatic
betrayal to trust us with their story. It always takes
months of building rapport to get to that point. By
the time we got to Maryland, Saskia was ready to
share her story, but we questioned if she was ready
to really put herself out there with this show. So
(11:27):
I asked her about that. I said, to you, we
don't have to do this.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
We don't have to go forward with this.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You can always circle back when you are ready. How
did that occur for you?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
It made me feel a little bit vulnerable, like they're
seeing how hard this is for me, Like what am
I doing? This is so difficult.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Part of her thought about ending the whole project right there. Instead,
she made a choice, the choice to keep going.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I feel like this was the journey that was put
in for me and I was gonna see it through,
regardless of how difficult it was.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
For years, Saskia has received support from a psychiatrist and
other mental health providers, but in choosing to do this podcast,
we wanted to ensure she had extra support, so we
connected her with Jessica Beaum.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
I'm a psychotherapist, a licensed mental health counselor. I'm an
author of two books, Anxiously Attached and Safe.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
If you've been listening to our show for a while,
you might recognize jess from season two where she worked
with our subject, Ashley Linton.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I studied interpersonal neural biology, and that is a study
of how we form as infants and young beings in
relationship with others. That's how we form our attachment patterns,
and I work a lot with my clients on getting
into their body and starting to be with their nervous
system and starting to connect all those dots.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Following our reporting trip, Jess and Saskia started meeting weekly.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
And I'm going to continue working with her to the
other side of this whenever she gets to the other side.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Often, Jess and Saskia talked about emotions that came up
throughout the production process. It took strength to report the
crime and get through those early days, but in many
ways that strength was a reflex. She saw no other
path than to fight this choice, to revisit what happened
to her. To trust other people with her story has
(13:53):
demanded a different kind of strength. Jess and Saskia agreed
to record a few of their sessions. Saskia listened back
to these recordings, and now she wants other people to
hear them too, in the hopes that her breakthroughs might
help somebody else.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
In the beginning, when I met with the producers, it
felt profound, but it also was so scary and so
uncomfortable that I honestly was like a little kid, like
I hid my face in my shirt because it felt
so strange receiving compassion and empathy and sympathy about what
(14:35):
Mike did.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
To me, and you had to start to recognize how
bad it was.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Yeah, how hard that was. I never felt important enough
to really do the deep diving into me and my
story in my life. It feels wrong to me because
I'm not used to doing that.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
And we have to get in touch with all the
pain to do that.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, that's probably what makes me feel like I want.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
To rite one.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think that being vulnerable like this and feeling it,
part of you wants to do the work, and the
part of you is so uncomfortable with showing up for it.
And I think that's actually a very normal part of
this experience, or the re experiencing of it all.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I totally agree. On Sunday night, we had a really
difficult recording session for the podcast. I was talking to.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Kitln Caitlyn is one of our producers.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And she saw that I visibly got tearful and then
started crying. And Caitlyn's response, of course, was empathy and like,
if this is too much for you, let's stop, And
I said no, like I need to feel these feelings.
It's hard, but I know that this is necessary.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
It's harder before it gets easier. Yep, that's what I'm finding,
And you know, Soski, some people don't have the capacity.
It takes a lot to slow down and feel.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, it's been really hard a few years. I'm proud
of myself for taking the time to be by myself
and come to some realizations. But it's a scary thing
to do at forty seven years old. I wish that
it would have happened to that earlier for me, so
I could have avoided some of these consequences.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
I don't know how many clients I have that are
like forty or fifty or fifty five who say the
same thing, like I wish I could have done this sooner.
I remember asking my mentor once when I got out
of a really unhealthy relationship, I said, did I need
to go through this pretty traumatic relationship to have this
healing process occur? Like? Was there another path? Sometimes we're
(16:51):
just not ready to go there until things get bad
enough or we need a wake up call.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, right, we have no choice but to slow down
or stop and deal with things.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
In slowing down, Saskia is not only facing these emotions
coming up through the podcast or sitting with her trauma
from Mike. She's going back further to her childhood to
understand why she gravitated towards someone like Mike and to
try to break that pattern going forward. Remember, Saskia grew
(17:24):
up as the youngest of four. Her father struggled with
mental illness, and her mom was busy keeping the family afloat.
It had a real impact on her. She always had
a lot of friends, but on the inside, I still.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Felt so alone and like a freak. In school, I
remember crying in the bathrooms and not really knowing why.
Looking back, I was really struggling with depression and anxiety.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
A big part of why she turned to alcohol.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I remember the first time getting drunk and how good
it felt. It helped me cope with a lot of
things that I hadn't dealt with yet, were under the surface,
stuff from my childhood.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Doesn't it make sense? That's part of the human desires.
We go towards what feels good, what releases chemicals, what
feels a sense of belonging, And you weren't getting any
of that at home, right.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Maybe that's what I did in my relationships too. I
didn't get what I needed emotionally, and so that's always
what I was searching for, that feeling sure Mike was
really the first person that I thought actually loved me
and was safe. It would be awful even if it
(18:53):
was a stranger who did this to me or someone
I had just met, but the fact that this was
my partner for seven years.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Supposed to be the safest person to you.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, he was my best friend. With him, I
felt really cared for, and I've never felt that before
in my life.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
When you grow up with childhood neglect and trauma, that
very young part of you is looking to be taken
care of, yeah, and attracted to someone who appears safe,
who appears like they're going to take care of that
little girl, and it ends up becoming a nightmare.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
Mike presented as someone different, He presented as someone safer,
He presented as not your normal type. And it's almost
like a fish on a hook. Your inner child is
projecting the perfect parent onto this person. This is going
to be the solution, because now this person is safe,
They're meeting all your needs. And the truth is your
(20:01):
attachment needs were still underneath the surface.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
One hundred percent. I mean, you've helped me realize that
I was seeking validation and feeling yeah taken care of.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
And he was in a position of power because he
met those needs so well.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
For you, looking at how I got to this place
has been really important because I don't need saving.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
For the first time in her life, Saskia is not
dating through this work in therapy, She's breaking patterns, sitting
with her pain, putting herself first.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I feel like I'm giving myself as much space and
time as I need to heal. I don't have time
or energy to prioritize somebody else over me right now,
and that's when the healing has really started. I feel
like I need to be able to trust myself before
I'll be able to trust anybody else. What I do
(21:06):
know now is that I can do it on my own.
If somebody makes me uncomfortable or somebody isn't concerned with
my feelings, I can walk away and I can still
be okay. I just wish it wasn't such a hard
lesson for me to learn, but I don't think there
was an easier one that would have hook you up
(21:28):
ook me up.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
As I was listening to Saskia and Jess's last recorded session,
I heard something that made me smile. Saska was looking
back on the early days of working with us and
how much has changed since then.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I'm definitely a people pleaser. If other people like me,
that makes me happy, and with this podcast, there was
a lot of that. Like I didn't know what support
to expect, so it was all very kind.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Of scary, but slowly, through lots of interviews, check ins,
and visits, our team earned Sask's trust. Today, our conversations
are as much about what happened to her as they
are about what shows we're watching. But our pets are
doing good days and bad days at work. Saska's walls
are down, and to me that's an honor. Are really
(22:40):
the first new people Saske has let into her world
in a long time.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
The support that I felt from working on this podcast,
it's been something that I've never felt before, the empathy
and the understanding. It's crazy how it happened, and I
don't really believe in fate, but it was just what
I need didn't to deal with it and heal and.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Yeah, do all the hard work. I know it's a reexperiencing,
but I think it's the re experiencing with the support
that makes the difference.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Once the project ends, we're not going anywhere, but just
want Saska to take this experience of learning to trust
us and translate it into trusting others again in her
everyday life.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
The way to heal this, Saskia, is now through the
work with me, but also other people who you can
be vulnerable with, who see you, who hold this sadness
with you. Instead of finding a new man and a
new solution, we need to slow down and start to
learn what's going on inside and be with our core wounds.
(23:56):
And a way to break this pattern is to lean
on other people who don't medicate the trauma, but can
be with you in your pain.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I do have people that I knew care about me.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Who's one of those people my sister.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
I think I used to feel like she wanted to
be there, but it was just one more thing in
her life that she felt like she wanted to fix.
Now she kind of asks like, do you just want
me to be here? So listen.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
That is literally the only thing we need is we
just need people to be with us.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
In addition to Marisa, Saskia has her friends, the ones
you've heard from throughout the season, but it hasn't always
felt easy to open up to them.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
I've always put a lot of pressure on myself not
to show how much pain I'm in.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I think there's a piece to trauma survivors where we
are not used to people who accept us unconditionally and
like us when we're messy and can be with all
our parts, so we're like I have to perform.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I would never reach out to a friend event I
wouldn't answer my phone unless I was in a good mood.
I would look internally and be like, how can I
fix myself so I can be okay for other people.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Before Mike, Saskio was the silly, bubbly one in her
friend group no matter what she was going through on
the inside. But after her discovery.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
There was no putting on a happy face. Everything went
dark for me and being around people that just had
normal lives or happy relationships or we're talking about I
don't know what they bought at the store. It was
easier for me to stay away.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
But connection is a two way street. Sometimes her friends
haven't known the best way to show up for Saskia,
if they should or could talk about what happened when
we were in Maryland. I brought that up with Saski's
friend head.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Do you guys as a friend group talk about hard things?
Speaker 5 (26:05):
No?
Speaker 6 (26:07):
Oh, the move or phrase app not with the person
in the room.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 6 (26:13):
I think a lot of us are people pleasers, and
so we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and it's
not meant to be like malice or like gossipy or something.
It's anyone concern, but not having the confidence to bring
it up directly with the person.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
There's also the guilt her friends feel about what happened
to Saskia. Looking back now knowing what Mike was doing,
Heather feels a lot of anger at herself. Remember she
was the friend that told Saskia to go through with
the wedding after the first time Saskia saw something on
Mike's laptop.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
I wish I would have given her that out and
been the friend that can be like, you don't have
to do this if you don't want to, Like, if
you don't feel like something's right, you don't have to
go through with this.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
It's uncomfortable to look back and wonder if you could
have done anything to differently. That guilt can make it
hard to talk about what happened. But there's one more
reason I think these friends don't talk about what Saskia
went through. It's the reason why for years there weren't
stories like this one out there, and it's a big
part of why it took so long for men like
(27:17):
Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, and Bill Cosby to be held accountable.
We've all been taught not to talk about rape. It's
too violent, too gross, something meant to be kept private,
especially when it's perpetrated by a good guy, a powerful guy,
or a partner. And in Saskia's case, there's digital evidence,
(27:40):
the photos and videos of her rape that will live
on on the internet forever. It's a horrific, ongoing part
of Mike's crimes, one that is hard for anyone to
talk about, even Saskia.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I've been not dealing with that, not thinking about it.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
You feel like trying to block it out of your
psyche is how you've been protecting yourself from it.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, for sure, I don't think I knew how hard
it was going to be, how much I had suppressed
in this to just.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Get by Maurica can see the effect these images have
on Saskia.
Speaker 5 (28:19):
She's embarrassed about the idea of her being on display,
and that makes her want to shrink. But I think
the side of her that wants to stand up for
herself and will feel no shame is stronger.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Saskia knows the shame isn't hers to carry. She wants
to talk about what happened to her. That's why she's
doing this podcast, dragging all this out into the light.
Despite how upsetting it can feel, she's being brave. For
their part, her friends are starting to do the same.
They're showing up for Saskia and talking more about what
(28:59):
happened on the podcast, but even more so with each other.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I can't tell you how many good tears I've cried
realizing how much people care about me. It's nice, like
I'm you know, I'm growing, and also I think my
relationships have kind of transformed.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Also, she's finding new stability. But the people who've been
there all along. On our last night in Maryland, Saskett
invited all her people over for a party. In the
days before, she almost canceled the whole thing. It had
(29:37):
just been a full week of interviews.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I was so anxious about doing a good job in
telling my story that my nervous system was just in
overdrive and it felt like too much to go out
or entertain.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
We assured her she didn't need to throw a party
on our account. Her people would understand too, but she
wanted to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I want to actually enjoy life, and I don't feel
like I always have to show up with a happy face.
I can just be me.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So she gathered everyone on her back porch, her siblings,
her friends.
Speaker 5 (30:18):
I want to hear.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
I want to hear what she's saying.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
It was a tail end of summer, the sun was
setting and the cicadas were in full swing. Everyone sat
in a circle of Adirondack chairs, eating cake and trading
funny stories from growing up.
Speaker 6 (30:33):
We heard Georgetown, so Bridget throw all of us down
to Georgetown.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I could tell it was a lot for Soskia. She
looked tired and she couldn't seem to sit still in
her chair. But in the midst of all of this,
I heard something the day so we.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
Were like, oh, so, then we had to back down again.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And Soskia is laugh. It was mentioned a lot in
interviews with her friends and family. But this was the
first time we really heard it for ourselves, and throughout
the night we kept hearing it. There's no clean end
to the journey Saskia is on. She'll never reach a
(31:15):
point when she's fully healed. No one does after betrayal.
I think healing is a series of smaller winds. Maybe
there will come a day when she'll wake up without
her trauma on her mind. Maybe she'll call her sister
or a friend the next time she feels alone. But
for now, just having moments like this again, when she
(31:38):
can just be with the people that love her and laugh,
that's enough.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Seven years ago, I really thought that my life was over.
I felt humiliated, and I still think that that's true.
Today I feel exposed, but that, to me is not
as important as exposing somebody who thought that they could
(32:05):
just operate in the dark for a while. He pulled
me into that darkness, and I refuse to live there.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
For resources on sexual violence, visit rain dot org slash betrayal.
That's r ai n N dot org slash betrayal. You
can also get free confidential twenty four seven support through
Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text hope to six
four sixty seven three or call one eight hundred sixty
(32:46):
five six. Hope you are not alone. If you would
like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want
to tell us your story, email us at Betrayalpod at
gmail dot com. That is Betrayal at gmail dot com,
or follow us on Instagram at betrayal Pod. To access
additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join
(33:10):
our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful
for your support. One way to show support is by
subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to
rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way.
A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal
is the production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass
(33:31):
Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is
executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and
produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden.
Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is
Monique Leboard. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are
(33:54):
Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablo, Production management by Kristin melcurritional
support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry
and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional
editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia,
her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson
(34:16):
and Carrie Lieberman. The trial's theme is composed by Oliver Bains.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Music library provided by
Speaker 1 (34:21):
My Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,
Host
Andrea Gunning
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