March 27, 2026 • 41 mins
Captain Ron & Dr. Simeon Hein discuss the intersection between UFOs, ball lightning, consciousness, and more! Dr. Hein also shares his evidence-based, analytical approach to the subject, and how it's often marginalized by conventional scientific inquiry.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM
Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with
Captain Ron.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM, employees of premier networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:41):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,
we explore theatest news in upology, discuss some of the
classic cases, and bring you the latest information from the
newest cases as we talk with the top experts. Welcome
to Beyond Contact, don Captain Ron, and today we're speaking
with doctor Simeon Hein. Doctor Hein is a sociologist, author,
(01:17):
and researcher, best known for his work exploring the intersection
of frontier science, consciousness studies, and anomalist phenomenon including UFOs.
Since the mid nineteen nineties, doctor Hein has taught and
practiced remote viewing as well. His books examined topics such
as crop circles, bigfoot UFOs, and the possibility of unseen
energetic dimensions of reality. Doctor Hein promotes open minded scientific
(01:42):
inquiry into unexplained events and the hidden capacities of human perception.
Which is all right up our ally, Hello there, sir,
Thank you so much for taking the time with us today.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Yeah, Ron, thanks for having me here today.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
So you know, I know you've looked at the UFO phenomenon,
as well as other phenomena on at different disciplines from
many different angles. I'd like to start off today with
your idea that there's this inverted reality. You seem to
be in the camp that consciousness is primary and matter
emerges from it. I think this idea goes back thousands
(02:16):
of years, but I always think of Max Plank's quote
from thirty one when he said, I regard consciousness as fundamental.
I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get
behind consciousness.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Is that where you sit?
Speaker 6 (02:29):
I think, generally speaking in that direction, I don't know
exactly what consciousness is. You know, objectively, since you and
I are in the test tube here, but I would
go in that direction only. I'm only saying that Ron
because remote viewers know from all the research that we're
(02:53):
not as conscious as we think we are. When you
do RV, it's coming from some place that you really
are not conscious of. That's why you have these protocol
to let the information through without your conscious mind monking
it up. So when I get this to ask this
question about consciousness, I always have to think of Ingo Swan,
(03:16):
the book that he mentioned to us, The User Illusion
by tor Nora Tranders, a book I came across during
my dissertation, my PhD dissertation, showing that so much of
what goes on in our awareness is actually unconscious. It's happening,
but you're not consciously aware of it. So the consciousness
(03:36):
question is just slightly more complex than I think most
people realize. However, having said that, I like the way
you described my platform as inverted reality. I think that's
the only conclusion you could come to by looking at
all the types of encounters people have with all the
types of phenomena that they're out there, the types of creatures,
(04:00):
the types of life forms. If you look at the
science behind it ron. It really seems like another reality,
not even necessarily a parallel reality, though those I'm sure
those exist. It's another reality enveloped within our physical material
(04:21):
reality that pops through once in a while, and when
the doorway seems to open, it seems like a lot
more comes through than just a UFO encounter. I mean,
there's just more coming through there. And this goes back
decades and decades of research showing that people that have
(04:42):
contact with this phenomena, all of it, they're experiencing similar
types of things and conditions and symptoms, which suggests, based
on what we can see, that there's another other reality
(05:02):
next to us, in the same space we're in that
we're normally we're not conscious of, we're not aware.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
With regards to UFOs and these alien experiences people have,
do you believe that they're perhaps manifestations, you know, emerging
from a consciousness based reality system and not necessarily real
physical craft transferring, you know, coming across the universe.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Well, that's that's a that's a good question.
Speaker 6 (05:27):
It seems that matter as we're used to it, physical matter,
has other states available to us to itself and the
way we experience it in a way that makes it
more like an energy form and a type of intelligence
(05:47):
without the usual solidity which we ascribe to UFOs and RON.
I think this is what people get hung up on
with UFOs now called UAP. There is a form that
they take which seems to be purely energetic, and this
is why people sometimes see these craft turn into orbs
(06:10):
or they see them e merge out of orbs. There
seems to be an alternate energetic state for these types
of technologies and life forms that seems to transform itself
into a plasma like state, and in that plasma like state,
they seem to have an intelligence. I'm just talking about
(06:33):
people's experience with orbs, Balls of Light, Skinwalker Ranch, all
these portal areas. Even going back to Kenneth Arnold, I
was really surprised reading James Lukatski's new book.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
You know, the former head of os APP. He wrote
this trilogy of books.
Speaker 6 (06:53):
I think the first and second one are with George
knappan Calm Keller, and right at the beginning of book
number two, I mean, I would encourage people to read
these books because he said this is all he's allowed
to say based on the NBA's side. It's all in
the books. He said, he can't even tell any more
to Congress. He talks about Kenneth Arnold experiencing orbs and
(07:14):
discarnate voices, shadow people, And so did anyone ever tell
us that about the Kenneth.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
I never knew that I was fast.
Speaker 6 (07:23):
From seven, that he experienced that strangeness which we've all
been fascinated with. But we haven't talked about a lot
because it's always been seen as well, that's not nuts
and Bolt's UFOs. So what's that. We're not going to
put that in our move On report. I'm a member
of move On, so I'm not putting it down. But
you see, we had these preconceptions that these were physical
(07:46):
craft along the lines of your question, right, But there's
another component of it which is really strange. But so
many people experience it, who experience UFOs or bigfoot or
cryptids or even a misty forms of light that their
(08:06):
cargoes through on the highway. You've heard of these encounters
and they get these types of effects. So we have
to ask ourselves, are we dealing with something that's more
than material? I mean, going to the heart of your question,
and I think that the empirical evidence going all the
way back to Kenneth Arnold and probably before show us.
That shows us that there's something more going on here,
(08:28):
which is why Lukatski has said in his interviews recently,
a UFO siding is more than a UFO siding.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
What empirical observations most strongly suggest to you that is
consciousness being primary rather than emergent.
Speaker 6 (08:43):
Well, again, I'm not sure if it literally proves that
consciousness is the primary component here, but what it suggests
is that life as we know it can travel along
an alternate channel which doesn't have the same physical parameters
like we're used to, and it creates phenomena where things
(09:07):
pass through walls, where it creates these sort of time
loops and time slips. I don't think all of these
missing time experiences ron are necessarily these entities abducting people,
taking them into their craft, doing experiments, and then letting
them go again. I mean, that could be happening, but
(09:30):
that experience is far too common with people that encounter
paranormal phenomena for it to be purely some sort of
medical know intergalactic medical research program or whatever you want
to call it.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
Do you think two things could be true that that's
actually physically happening, and other people are just.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Okay, No, I think that is happening too.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
When you take a break here, Doc, when we come back,
we're going to ask Tommy about some of the support
for the fundamental consciousness position as well. How many of
these UFO and alien experiences tend to experience much more
activity either before or after their direct encounters. You're listening
to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
AM Paranormal podcast network. We're back on Beyond Contact. We're
(10:35):
speaking with doctor simeon Hin. You know, you were talking
about these similar adjacent experiences that people tend to have
around paranormal experiences, like you mentioned Kenneth Arnold, and then
there's things.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Like fog or cold or the world.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Goes silent, which is often reported. These phenomenon that people report.
I wonder do you think that these are aspects of
what actually happens or do you think perhaps that's how
people are remembering it and experiencing it when they see
a paradigm shifting thing like witnessing something paranormal. Isn't it
(11:09):
just like how our brains would handle something in a
in like a crisis situation, like say a car accident.
When people have a car accident, it's the same thing.
I didn't hear any noise. Everything was in super slow mo.
Could it be just our brains doing that somehow?
Speaker 6 (11:25):
No, that's actually a good point, Ron, I think it's
a bit of both. There is no doubt that people
who are in stressful situations, we know this from studies
of people who've been in combat situations, people who've been
in violent situations, is that the brain has certain defense mechanisms,
(11:46):
which really survival skills that allow you really focus in
on what matters right at that instant, so you live,
to take another breath, And it does change the perception
of time. And I have encountered enough of that talking
to bigfoot witnesses, where their memories of the event could
(12:06):
vary right from the person who was right next to them,
including the description of the appearance of the creature and
a lot of details because they go and they enter
this stressful mode where they're not sure what's happening. The
creatures can be potentially violent, or that's their perception of it. Certainly,
(12:28):
the sounds are really loud from the scream howls like
you know. They say it's like a Tyrannosaurus Rex mixed
with Godzilla, and your body has a reaction to it.
Not to mention the sonic abilities of these creatures to
direct sound at you and so for there's something we
can talk about at another time. But the physiological physics
(12:53):
side of this run is something that was addressed by
Asapp and you can read about it when Lakatski's talking
in these books we just mentioned, there is something that
he calls the Oz effect, and.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
That seems to be and that's a kind of a slowing.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
Down of time. The whole area goes silent and so forth.
But doing research into this subject matter, you can read
people experiencing that so called Oz effect around ball lightning,
even when they didn't feel there was any emergency or
crisis at hand. People report even on beaches that they
(13:33):
couldn't hear the waves, and that suggests to me that
what people are experiencing around UFOs, and this happens around
Bigfoot by the way too, and other cryptids, is some
direct physical effect on the structure of space time. Because
of the way that these life forms and technologies can
(13:55):
affect the physical parameters that determine how electromagnetic signals propagate
in space. So, without being too complicated about it, this
is what how put Off, you know, one of the
original bounders of the Remote Viewing Program at SRI and
(14:17):
also a consultant to the federal government on UFOs and
the ASSP program. According to what he's told us in
his lectures and so forth, is that this is what's
called space time metric engineering, is where these technologies and
possibly these creatures are deliberately affecting what we call permittivity,
(14:43):
which is the ability of a material to hold an
electrical charge.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Permittivity can vary.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
Physicists normally set it at one for empty space, but
objects have different levels of permittivity, and these technologies, specifically
in u UFOs and in the Hall structure, are quantum technologies.
According to how put Off and people I've talked to
who've examined these materials, that they're actually literally making the
(15:13):
permittivity of the surrounding space change in a way that
allows them to have propulsion and acceleration. So they're changing
the structure of space time in a precise, deliberate way
with these wave guides, these metamterials. So If that's true,
to answer your question, Ron, then what would be happening
(15:34):
is we have both. We have people having a physiological
shock effect of being like a PTSD stress type reaction,
but we also have technologies around us that are changing
the permittivity and the permeability the magnetic constant of space time,
and that would cause the speed of light to change,
(15:55):
since that's what determines the propagation of electromagnetic weights are
reability and permitivity. It's a simple equation with a square
root sign over it in Yeah, it's not that complicated.
But what the point here is that what we consider
(16:16):
to be constant in our reality every day you and
I wake up, those can vary around these technologies and
these life forms. This has even been found around cold
fusion low energy nuclear reaction Lenner technologies in the lab.
Where are the physicists working on these The engineers say
(16:37):
that the permitivity starts to fluctuate and it creates blurriness.
It literally creates a blurriness in the field of view
because the speed of light's now oscillating. And how many
times run have we heard? Why are the UFO photos
(16:58):
to blurry? Why does big foot always look blurry, not
even with the camera pictures. I'm talking people with their
eyes saying it looked wispy and misty and undefinable. What
does that tell you that they're altering the structure of
space time. Now, I know that's a big leap, but
we need some big leaps here, because the witnesses are
telling telling us they're seeing some awfully strange things.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
And to me, it fits with what.
Speaker 6 (17:22):
How and Russian scientists have told us about variable permittivity. Lakatski,
You know, we have this scientific research into this these
subjects from our own Department of Defense through US APP
which we're told has continued right now in a program
called ConA Blue It apparently, Cornelakatski, it's still going on.
(17:44):
They've done a lot of research into the science of this,
and they're telling us a tiny little bit in Lakatski's
book howp put offs presentations to us. I would say
that's probably accurate. We're dealing with variable primitivity permeability, and
that makes things just feel strange.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
So that would be what I think is going on.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Now.
Speaker 6 (18:04):
I could be wrong, maybe there's something else, but that's
my best understanding of it. So when you have those
things going on run, things are going to look blue,
Things are going to shift color spectrum, The sound frequencies
are going to shift into other registers, so things that
are higher are going to go lower. And there's even
(18:26):
electromagnetic effects doing some research just in the past few
weeks which is called acoustic induction inversion, where where sound
waves actually get sucked out of the system from the
way the energy propagates. It pulls out energy from the
environment which would damp in sound.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
Does all this make their time go off too, because
they seem to have time in there?
Speaker 6 (18:54):
You go, It makes the time feel different because we
feel this, you know, the flow of time through movement
and through change. And if that is going to alter
in some way, your sense of time would change, the
structure of space time would change. I mean this goes
through Einstein's special theory of relativity. So these these subjects
(19:16):
are connected through these different principles that we understand through
electromagnetism and quantum mechanics. And I think when you look
at it and then somebody I'll be talking about, you know,
my presentation at contact coming up in a couple months. Great,
there aren't some basics in physics. For these principles, we
(19:37):
don't just have to call it woo woo. I mean,
you could call it that, but that's what people you know,
that's what people accuse. Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell
have also been airy fairy. Literally it's a quote airy
fairy metaphysics. It's always been leveled at any new it happens.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
That way until time goes on. Then that's the standard.
It's amazing all these guys were criticized for.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
A hundred years and that it's obvious we knew it all.
Whull lot.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
I think that's what we're talking about here, and I'm
not trying to explain all this away.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
I'm just saying some of these experiences.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
That people have around these phenomenas seem consistent with those ideas.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Fair enough. When we come back, we're going to ask
Simeon about these encounters people have and if he would
call these beings ultra terrestrials, could that be the answer.
You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast
to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on
(20:48):
Beyond Contact speaking with doctor Simeon hin Hey, Doc, how
would you describe this reality? Number one? Is it a
reality onto its own or is it just the way
we perceived things in our natural world? Like, could it
just be this unseen world is in fact part of
our world, but we're not able to always perceive it.
(21:09):
I'm thinking in terms of things like infrared spectrum that
we couldn't see for all of humanity, and then we
developed the technology and now suddenly we can see into
the infrared spectrum. Is it possible that there's this other
realm within our real world that we're just not able
to perceive yet because we don't have that technology.
Speaker 6 (21:30):
Yeah, I think that's a good analogy to look at
it in terms of the frequencies that we're capable of perceiving,
and the technology we have can extend our perception into
other bandwidths that we're not used to perceiving. It's like
that book by Edwin Abbott Flatland that he wrote in
eighteen seventy two. There was a movie based on this too. Yeah,
(21:55):
So the idea behind that was that the we're living
in a certain restricted number of dimensions at least how
our perception works, but there could be other life around
that works at a higher dimensional level. When they intersect
with our reality, it could look like they just show
up out of nowhere, as happens in the Flatland story
(22:19):
accord to the main character, and the main character sees
a sphere show up one day on the tabletop. These
flat Land characters live in a flat world and three
dimensional objects exist and occasionally show up. And what they
find towards the end of the story is that the
government of flat Land knew and this is from eighteen
seventy to is the longest incredible Yeah, they knew about
(22:42):
these spheres and sphere Land, but they didn't want to
tell the Flatlanders for fear of social revolution. Edwin Abbott
was ahead of his time because that seems exactly what
has happened. Sure, And I would say it's more than
an analogy or a metaphor. I think that's literally what's
going on and what really reinforces it ron is our
(23:05):
social consensus reality which is so strong. It's this sense
of tribal belonging, this to our particular society wherever you
live in the world, and it affects our perception and
what we're willing to talk about. That's where sociology comes into.
This is We literally don't talk about things that people
experience because of fear of stigma, ostracism, ridicule, the gigall factor.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's insane, but that's true. Do you think
that that's probably how it is, that there's this unseen
world either within ours or adjacent to ours, and the
paranormal or anomaloss occurrences are when someone gets a glimpse
into that other world. Or do you think it might
be a much larger system and in fact be part
(23:51):
of this massive multiverse or different dimensions that people talk about.
These are very easy direct questions with clear, definitive answers.
By the way, do you think it could be the other,
that it's multi versus in many dimensions.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Or I think it's both the Oh yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:08):
The researcher microelectronic cold fusion researcher Kenneth our Shoulders, who
worked at SRI for a while and was a partner
to how put Off in some projects, said in his writings,
and he discovered charge clusters what we call exotic vacuum objects,
(24:31):
micro ball lightning, if you will, micro sized ball lightning
that can move around in circuits, that can move around
your home. Shoulder said something very much along the line
of what the words you just used, is that these objects,
because we just introduced the idea of primitivity a few
(24:51):
minutes ago, because their permittivity is lower than ordinary objects
you and I are used to, they work at a
much more more rapid rate. And he said that they're
sliding and gliding around in our reality, but they're decoupled
from our physical reality. But they're in the same space
we're in, but they operate at an electronic speed. And
(25:13):
he even suggested that they're life forms that operate at
this electronic speed in the space you're in right now.
You really won't know you're around them until you see
your electronics going on the fritz.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
And that's often reported as.
Speaker 6 (25:27):
Well, things shorting out, batteries dying for Ken's shoulders, and
he was one of many researchers in this tradition. He
showed us that there's another type of electronic activity going
on around us with alternate oscillating permittivity, which he said,
(25:47):
and this is his words, Ron, he said, black organizations
with ghostly properties right in the space we're in. And
it's not talking about parallel realities. He's talking about this
real reality where it starts shifting from changing the basics,
physics constants, the permeability, permittivity. Things are moving in a
(26:09):
different faster way. They have a huge energy density, but
they're in the space we're in. And this seems to
me what people are encountering around UFOs and these other
types of life forms. I mean, it was Stan Gordon,
the researcher from Pennsylvania, his book Silent Invasion nineteen seventy three.
He made this connection of Bigfoot to UFOs that a
(26:30):
lot of UFO researchers didn't want to see, which is
where you get reports of UFO sightings. You get spooky
wooki things showing up the same time, which goes against
the idea that these are just metalships with these little
guys that got in from another planet and kind of
took off and.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Came over here like lost in space.
Speaker 6 (26:51):
What Stan Gordon showed us is, you know, he wasn't
even looking for it on his hotline, which he's been
running since nineteen fifty nine. But you get these cryptids,
Bigfoot and other creatures that we don't have names were
showing up at the same time. These strange shadow type people,
strange voices, weird box like structures, which Trey Hudson has
(27:13):
talked about in his research in the meadows another kind
of hot spot, you know in the southeast a lot.
Katie Page from Colorado saw those strange boxes on the
Elbert County and they saw him at Skinwalker too. So
you get kind of a range of phenomena which suggests
that what Ken Shoulders is talking about it another organization.
(27:35):
We're not talking about separate things. We're talking about entire organizations,
black organizations that are in our midst that only come
through once in a while, and it seems in some
geographic areas they come through a lot more and scare
people away. People sell their homesteads and stuff and get
out of the Marley Woods in Missouri.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Right Ted Phillips, All.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
That is true that within our reality there is another type.
I'm just not giving it a value kind of to
I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's dark.
It's a dark reality. Ken Shoulders even suggested this could
be what dark matter is, which led me to the
idea of sort of dark matter life forms dark matter technologies,
(28:22):
since most of the universe is made of dark matter,
but there also do seem to be parallel realities, and
that's something I've looked at extensively. Just kind of going
back to your teaser question at the last segment, why
do people before their UFO encounters, why do they have
things start showing up before the UFO siding and then afterwards.
(28:46):
It suggests a type of reality that's next to us,
that maybe a little bleed through is coming into our
reality from that other versions.
Speaker 5 (28:58):
We're picking up side, you know, we're picking up on
it us, like when you can tell there's somebody behind.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
Yeah, we have these senses and people like who've been
involved with remote viewing like I have, you know, you're
familiar with these types of experiences that remote viewers have.
But it's you know, as Ingo Swan used to say,
this is based on our natural senses, not the five
ordinary senses. Ingo thought we had like twenty senses, but
we simply in the West think they're only five. But
(29:24):
there are many more than that. Lynn Buchanan, one of
the people in the DA program and who still you know,
a teacher in r V, yeah, called it this the
you know, the sixth, the seventh sense, and Hugh Ever
at the third imagined this sort of many world's idea,
(29:45):
and there are permutations of that, but that there's bleed through.
So I mean, I don't want to make it too complex,
but it could be both that within our reality there's
a dark matter version of it, anti matter type of reality.
I mean, Paul Durak, you know, controversially investigated even in
the nineteen twenties and it turned out to be right.
(30:05):
There were other alternate antimatter particles within our reality. It's
not a parallel reality, right, it's here, but you normally
don't see it. But then on top of that, I
have no doubt that there are parallel realities. And it
complicates it for us researchers. What are we dealing with it?
But that's what people experience sometimes, are things just seemingly
(30:26):
coming out of nowhere. And just I had this conversation
with Jacques valet Ones at one of the IRVA conferences
and he said, what they're not telling you to these
UFO researchers, for the most part, is that people are
having a paranormal experiences before their contact. So what does
that tell us. I'm not sure exactly what it tells.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Us, but it's.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
Consistent with the idea of parallel realities and bleeds and
all that.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
When we come back, we're going to ask sim It
about fractals and if he thinks that could point toward
us living in a simulation. You're listening to Beyond Contact
on the iHeartRadio and cost Am Paranormal podcast network. We
(31:19):
are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with doctor simeon
him doct This idea behind fractals is saying that the
universe may be built from repeating informational templates, which to
me points like it might fit right in with the
simulation theory, which physicist Tom Campbell describes as a self contained,
(31:39):
evolving digital information system governed by rule sets.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
Is that how you see it? Would you subscribe to
this theory?
Speaker 6 (31:48):
Well, yeah, the idea that fractals are the basis of
our reality, I definitely subscribe to that idea. I'm not
sure if it's literally just a digital simulation, and if
it is, it's coming from you and me. I mean,
we're the ones creating this digital simulation.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Back to consciousness again.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
Yeah, I mean, if it is a simulation, I'm not
in the conspiracy camp thinking it's someone else like you're
We're in someone else's video game.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
I'm not going that way.
Speaker 6 (32:14):
You're in your own because we know your brain is
assembling all these frequencies into objects and perceptions and so forth.
That's all happening in your brain. It's a good replica
of what's going on out there. Otherwise you'd be bumping
into things all the time. But that doesn't mean that
what you're perceiving is exactly what it actually is. It's
(32:34):
how you're perceiving it, and that's being generated every nanosecond
by you know, the trillions of neurons in your brain.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
But the fractal idea is really critical here because I
think we've grown up with a lot of misinformation, especially
in Western society. We've imagined that the universe is based
on these straight lines with Euclidean shapes, you know, squares
and circles, even orbits are elliptical, they're rarely just perfect circles.
(33:06):
We have this perfect geometry in our mind that we
got from the Greeks, but it doesn't turn out that
way when you look at reality. It's all fractal. Going
outward as far as I can see through mountain ranges
and the way clouds are shaped, and the shapes of
rivers with tributaries, and down to the microscale with our
(33:28):
bronchial structure, cardiovascular system, everything is these branching structures and
where people don't know fractals are these branching structures like trees.
That's the way nature really designs things. And we're the
ones that have imposed this linear idea, insisting that it
should be turned into like an even metric that we
(33:50):
can measure. We like this idea, especially the Romans exactly right.
It's very easy to understand going back to the Roman
times two thousand years ago. They love putting straight roads
cross these but that's not how nature really works. And
when you get down to the more micro level, even electromagnetism,
(34:11):
there's a fractal version of it which from all of
our research seems to be responsible for ball lightning. Fractal
rings on rings of electromagnetism can create a kind of
stored condensed magnetism which produces orbs and ball lightning and
micro ball lightning. And this comes out of Department of
(34:33):
Energy Research, David Freiberger and others. So there is a
fractal description of the energetic phenomena that happen at the
smallest scale and all the way out to the biggest scale.
It's fractal, So we're really surrounded by fractals. But our minds,
as you said, Ron, our minds like easy lines and
(34:57):
Euclidean shapes, and this is what we teach our ki
and we insist on the universe working this way.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
But it doesn't really work that way.
Speaker 6 (35:05):
And that's why even in things like cell phones, it's
a fractal based antenna. It's got these structures and small
so you can pick up different bandwidths. It's used in
JPEG compression is based on a fract a algorithm. Satellite communication, right,
you can't send all that data through. You create these
algorithms as you mentioned just a few minutes ago, and
it reinflates like a simulation back to the original sounds,
(35:29):
back to the original image. But if we accept that
it's really fractal, we would have access to a lot
more types of energy and energetic systems the way nature
really works, and that is the root of what's been
called cold fusion, even though that's not the best name
for it. Low energy nuclear reaction. These are fractally based
(35:51):
resonance systems around vortex shapes, and I think we've been
limited in understanding this because we want it to be
euclidian and easy.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
To measure and so forth.
Speaker 6 (36:03):
But if we accept that it's actually more self similar
and it branches off and the branches never really end
in thinking your body, every little sell in there has
to get oxygen. You need that fractal network. If we
worked more along fractal systems instead of making everything into
a grid and even looking grid, we would be working
(36:25):
more along the way nature actually works, and I think
we'd be able to solve a lot more of our
energy challenges right now than the way we're doing it.
So you know, this goes into the whole discussion of
resonance and resonance based systems, but you could have a
whole technology based on this, and I wouldn't be surprised
(36:45):
if that's how some of these UFOs actually generate these
changes that they do in their environment, is through some
sort of resonant effect rather than some sort of huge
application of energy. It's more like a frequency tuning type effect,
and that's where you end up with if you look
(37:06):
at fractals.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
In my view, So the fractals really do matter.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
Now, I'm not sure if it suggests like you propose,
I'm not sure if it suggests a simulation. But you know, Ron,
what it really suggests is that it's not as easy
to understand as you may have thought. I mean, we
can get people to the moon, we can run those
SpaceX rockets that you people who we've all got to
see now, you know, watching these launches on YouTube and
(37:32):
amazingly watching the booster come back, and that's all amazing.
That's all sort of linear Newtonian stuff, and it's good
for that. But in terms of understanding the complexity of
all the different types of life that are out there
and technologies, we would have to look at fractal structure more.
And that is it's a little messier looking because it's branching,
(37:56):
but we can still kind of get a sense of
how it works. But I think that's actually how nature works.
And we've been you know, we're like the outliers. We
think like we're the main thing in all us to
fit with the way we think, we're actually the exceptions.
We're the exceptions because we're insisting that it be linear,
(38:17):
even in your own body. It's all fractal processes we're
always trying to It leads us to be fighting nature
instead of working with it.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
Makes sense. Hey, we've got just a couple of minutes left.
I wanted to ask you before you go here, what
do you think people are experiencing when they encounter what
we call non human intelligence? What do you what do
you think it is?
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Well?
Speaker 6 (38:35):
I literally think that these are life forms just along
the conversation we're having now, that have learned to modulate
their resonance somehow, either through sound or through aggregating electromagnetic
charge electrical charge from the way that their bodies are built,
(38:57):
that they can literally operate in this other mode that
Ken Shoulders was talking about. I mean, this is my
personal view of it, and I'm happy to be proven wrong.
But I think these types of creatures that people talk about,
if we're talking about and you did mention ultraterrestrials before,
we didn't quite get to that. If we're talking about
lifeforms that are indigenous to Earth but still hard for
(39:21):
us to understand or make contact with, they could be
operating at this other level that Ken Shoulders was alluding to,
because they can modulate their frequency in a way that
gives them cloaking ability to move in ways that we
can't usually move in that appearance that bigfoot often has
(39:43):
that they're gliding rather than walking. Maybe just like maybe
they're literally blurry, Maybe they really are gliding, and people
have seen them do this over water. They seem to
not weigh down on the water like you and I
would from eyewould this accounts, so it seems to me
that they're operating at a different frequency.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Just to kind of simplify it a little bit.
Speaker 6 (40:06):
And just like UFOs can modulate the space time metric
technologically through the meta materials in their very thin hulls,
I think some of these life forms that people are
encountering around and just a section of it are also
able to affect the space time metric. Lifeforms that can
(40:26):
affect the space tymetric naturally from sort of some fractal
frequency based set of principles. That's my gut feeling about it,
based on all the people I've talked to have encountered
these times.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
Well, if that's the case, then then that overcomes the
problem of distance of time, of having enough energy to
make these journeys faster than light travel, Radiation, all of
those things. Hey, listen, we're out of time here, Doc,
but thank you so much. It's really great stuff. I
really appreciate you taking.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
The time man. Thanks Ryan, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 5 (40:57):
You guys can find doctor Heine at Simmy and High.
You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at c
I T D Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking
out contact intheesert dot com. Stay open minded and rational
as we explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio
and Coast to Coast am Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast DAM
Paranormal podcast network, where we offer you podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,
and the unexplained. Get ready now for Beyond Contact with
Captain Ron.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and
opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions
only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast
to Coast AM, employees of premier networks, or their sponsors
and associates. We would like to encourage you to do
(00:41):
your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,
we explore theatest news in upology, discuss some of the
classic cases, and bring you the latest information from the
newest cases as we talk with the top experts. Welcome
to Beyond Contact, don Captain Ron, and today we're speaking
with doctor Simeon Hein. Doctor Hein is a sociologist, author,
(01:17):
and researcher, best known for his work exploring the intersection
of frontier science, consciousness studies, and anomalist phenomenon including UFOs.
Since the mid nineteen nineties, doctor Hein has taught and
practiced remote viewing as well. His books examined topics such
as crop circles, bigfoot UFOs, and the possibility of unseen
energetic dimensions of reality. Doctor Hein promotes open minded scientific
(01:42):
inquiry into unexplained events and the hidden capacities of human perception.
Which is all right up our ally, Hello there, sir,
Thank you so much for taking the time with us today.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Yeah, Ron, thanks for having me here today.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
So you know, I know you've looked at the UFO phenomenon,
as well as other phenomena on at different disciplines from
many different angles. I'd like to start off today with
your idea that there's this inverted reality. You seem to
be in the camp that consciousness is primary and matter
emerges from it. I think this idea goes back thousands
(02:16):
of years, but I always think of Max Plank's quote
from thirty one when he said, I regard consciousness as fundamental.
I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get
behind consciousness.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Is that where you sit?
Speaker 6 (02:29):
I think, generally speaking in that direction, I don't know
exactly what consciousness is. You know, objectively, since you and
I are in the test tube here, but I would
go in that direction only. I'm only saying that Ron
because remote viewers know from all the research that we're
(02:53):
not as conscious as we think we are. When you
do RV, it's coming from some place that you really
are not conscious of. That's why you have these protocol
to let the information through without your conscious mind monking
it up. So when I get this to ask this
question about consciousness, I always have to think of Ingo Swan,
(03:16):
the book that he mentioned to us, The User Illusion
by tor Nora Tranders, a book I came across during
my dissertation, my PhD dissertation, showing that so much of
what goes on in our awareness is actually unconscious. It's happening,
but you're not consciously aware of it. So the consciousness
(03:36):
question is just slightly more complex than I think most
people realize. However, having said that, I like the way
you described my platform as inverted reality. I think that's
the only conclusion you could come to by looking at
all the types of encounters people have with all the
types of phenomena that they're out there, the types of creatures,
(04:00):
the types of life forms. If you look at the
science behind it ron. It really seems like another reality,
not even necessarily a parallel reality, though those I'm sure
those exist. It's another reality enveloped within our physical material
(04:21):
reality that pops through once in a while, and when
the doorway seems to open, it seems like a lot
more comes through than just a UFO encounter. I mean,
there's just more coming through there. And this goes back
decades and decades of research showing that people that have
(04:42):
contact with this phenomena, all of it, they're experiencing similar
types of things and conditions and symptoms, which suggests, based
on what we can see, that there's another other reality
(05:02):
next to us, in the same space we're in that
we're normally we're not conscious of, we're not aware.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
With regards to UFOs and these alien experiences people have,
do you believe that they're perhaps manifestations, you know, emerging
from a consciousness based reality system and not necessarily real
physical craft transferring, you know, coming across the universe.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Well, that's that's a that's a good question.
Speaker 6 (05:27):
It seems that matter as we're used to it, physical matter,
has other states available to us to itself and the
way we experience it in a way that makes it
more like an energy form and a type of intelligence
(05:47):
without the usual solidity which we ascribe to UFOs and RON.
I think this is what people get hung up on
with UFOs now called UAP. There is a form that
they take which seems to be purely energetic, and this
is why people sometimes see these craft turn into orbs
(06:10):
or they see them e merge out of orbs. There
seems to be an alternate energetic state for these types
of technologies and life forms that seems to transform itself
into a plasma like state, and in that plasma like state,
they seem to have an intelligence. I'm just talking about
(06:33):
people's experience with orbs, Balls of Light, Skinwalker Ranch, all
these portal areas. Even going back to Kenneth Arnold, I
was really surprised reading James Lukatski's new book.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
You know, the former head of os APP. He wrote
this trilogy of books.
Speaker 6 (06:53):
I think the first and second one are with George
knappan Calm Keller, and right at the beginning of book
number two, I mean, I would encourage people to read
these books because he said this is all he's allowed
to say based on the NBA's side. It's all in
the books. He said, he can't even tell any more
to Congress. He talks about Kenneth Arnold experiencing orbs and
(07:14):
discarnate voices, shadow people, And so did anyone ever tell
us that about the Kenneth.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
I never knew that I was fast.
Speaker 6 (07:23):
From seven, that he experienced that strangeness which we've all
been fascinated with. But we haven't talked about a lot
because it's always been seen as well, that's not nuts
and Bolt's UFOs. So what's that. We're not going to
put that in our move On report. I'm a member
of move On, so I'm not putting it down. But
you see, we had these preconceptions that these were physical
(07:46):
craft along the lines of your question, right, But there's
another component of it which is really strange. But so
many people experience it, who experience UFOs or bigfoot or
cryptids or even a misty forms of light that their
(08:06):
cargoes through on the highway. You've heard of these encounters
and they get these types of effects. So we have
to ask ourselves, are we dealing with something that's more
than material? I mean, going to the heart of your question,
and I think that the empirical evidence going all the
way back to Kenneth Arnold and probably before show us.
That shows us that there's something more going on here,
(08:28):
which is why Lukatski has said in his interviews recently,
a UFO siding is more than a UFO siding.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
What empirical observations most strongly suggest to you that is
consciousness being primary rather than emergent.
Speaker 6 (08:43):
Well, again, I'm not sure if it literally proves that
consciousness is the primary component here, but what it suggests
is that life as we know it can travel along
an alternate channel which doesn't have the same physical parameters
like we're used to, and it creates phenomena where things
(09:07):
pass through walls, where it creates these sort of time
loops and time slips. I don't think all of these
missing time experiences ron are necessarily these entities abducting people,
taking them into their craft, doing experiments, and then letting
them go again. I mean, that could be happening, but
(09:30):
that experience is far too common with people that encounter
paranormal phenomena for it to be purely some sort of
medical know intergalactic medical research program or whatever you want
to call it.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
Do you think two things could be true that that's
actually physically happening, and other people are just.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Okay, No, I think that is happening too.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
When you take a break here, Doc, when we come back,
we're going to ask Tommy about some of the support
for the fundamental consciousness position as well. How many of
these UFO and alien experiences tend to experience much more
activity either before or after their direct encounters. You're listening
to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
AM Paranormal podcast network. We're back on Beyond Contact. We're
(10:35):
speaking with doctor simeon Hin. You know, you were talking
about these similar adjacent experiences that people tend to have
around paranormal experiences, like you mentioned Kenneth Arnold, and then
there's things.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Like fog or cold or the world.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Goes silent, which is often reported. These phenomenon that people report.
I wonder do you think that these are aspects of
what actually happens or do you think perhaps that's how
people are remembering it and experiencing it when they see
a paradigm shifting thing like witnessing something paranormal. Isn't it
(11:09):
just like how our brains would handle something in a
in like a crisis situation, like say a car accident.
When people have a car accident, it's the same thing.
I didn't hear any noise. Everything was in super slow mo.
Could it be just our brains doing that somehow?
Speaker 6 (11:25):
No, that's actually a good point, Ron, I think it's
a bit of both. There is no doubt that people
who are in stressful situations, we know this from studies
of people who've been in combat situations, people who've been
in violent situations, is that the brain has certain defense mechanisms,
(11:46):
which really survival skills that allow you really focus in
on what matters right at that instant, so you live,
to take another breath, And it does change the perception
of time. And I have encountered enough of that talking
to bigfoot witnesses, where their memories of the event could
(12:06):
vary right from the person who was right next to them,
including the description of the appearance of the creature and
a lot of details because they go and they enter
this stressful mode where they're not sure what's happening. The
creatures can be potentially violent, or that's their perception of it. Certainly,
(12:28):
the sounds are really loud from the scream howls like
you know. They say it's like a Tyrannosaurus Rex mixed
with Godzilla, and your body has a reaction to it.
Not to mention the sonic abilities of these creatures to
direct sound at you and so for there's something we
can talk about at another time. But the physiological physics
(12:53):
side of this run is something that was addressed by
Asapp and you can read about it when Lakatski's talking
in these books we just mentioned, there is something that
he calls the Oz effect, and.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
That seems to be and that's a kind of a slowing.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
Down of time. The whole area goes silent and so forth.
But doing research into this subject matter, you can read
people experiencing that so called Oz effect around ball lightning,
even when they didn't feel there was any emergency or
crisis at hand. People report even on beaches that they
(13:33):
couldn't hear the waves, and that suggests to me that
what people are experiencing around UFOs, and this happens around
Bigfoot by the way too, and other cryptids, is some
direct physical effect on the structure of space time. Because
of the way that these life forms and technologies can
(13:55):
affect the physical parameters that determine how electromagnetic signals propagate
in space. So, without being too complicated about it, this
is what how put Off, you know, one of the
original bounders of the Remote Viewing Program at SRI and
(14:17):
also a consultant to the federal government on UFOs and
the ASSP program. According to what he's told us in
his lectures and so forth, is that this is what's
called space time metric engineering, is where these technologies and
possibly these creatures are deliberately affecting what we call permittivity,
(14:43):
which is the ability of a material to hold an
electrical charge.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Permittivity can vary.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
Physicists normally set it at one for empty space, but
objects have different levels of permittivity, and these technologies, specifically
in u UFOs and in the Hall structure, are quantum technologies.
According to how put Off and people I've talked to
who've examined these materials, that they're actually literally making the
(15:13):
permittivity of the surrounding space change in a way that
allows them to have propulsion and acceleration. So they're changing
the structure of space time in a precise, deliberate way
with these wave guides, these metamterials. So If that's true,
to answer your question, Ron, then what would be happening
(15:34):
is we have both. We have people having a physiological
shock effect of being like a PTSD stress type reaction,
but we also have technologies around us that are changing
the permittivity and the permeability the magnetic constant of space time,
and that would cause the speed of light to change,
(15:55):
since that's what determines the propagation of electromagnetic weights are
reability and permitivity. It's a simple equation with a square
root sign over it in Yeah, it's not that complicated.
But what the point here is that what we consider
(16:16):
to be constant in our reality every day you and
I wake up, those can vary around these technologies and
these life forms. This has even been found around cold
fusion low energy nuclear reaction Lenner technologies in the lab.
Where are the physicists working on these The engineers say
(16:37):
that the permitivity starts to fluctuate and it creates blurriness.
It literally creates a blurriness in the field of view
because the speed of light's now oscillating. And how many
times run have we heard? Why are the UFO photos
(16:58):
to blurry? Why does big foot always look blurry, not
even with the camera pictures. I'm talking people with their
eyes saying it looked wispy and misty and undefinable. What
does that tell you that they're altering the structure of
space time. Now, I know that's a big leap, but
we need some big leaps here, because the witnesses are
telling telling us they're seeing some awfully strange things.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
And to me, it fits with what.
Speaker 6 (17:22):
How and Russian scientists have told us about variable permittivity. Lakatski,
You know, we have this scientific research into this these
subjects from our own Department of Defense through US APP
which we're told has continued right now in a program
called ConA Blue It apparently, Cornelakatski, it's still going on.
(17:44):
They've done a lot of research into the science of this,
and they're telling us a tiny little bit in Lakatski's
book howp put offs presentations to us. I would say
that's probably accurate. We're dealing with variable primitivity permeability, and
that makes things just feel strange.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
So that would be what I think is going on.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Now.
Speaker 6 (18:04):
I could be wrong, maybe there's something else, but that's
my best understanding of it. So when you have those
things going on run, things are going to look blue,
Things are going to shift color spectrum, The sound frequencies
are going to shift into other registers, so things that
are higher are going to go lower. And there's even
(18:26):
electromagnetic effects doing some research just in the past few
weeks which is called acoustic induction inversion, where where sound
waves actually get sucked out of the system from the
way the energy propagates. It pulls out energy from the
environment which would damp in sound.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
Does all this make their time go off too, because
they seem to have time in there?
Speaker 6 (18:54):
You go, It makes the time feel different because we
feel this, you know, the flow of time through movement
and through change. And if that is going to alter
in some way, your sense of time would change, the
structure of space time would change. I mean this goes
through Einstein's special theory of relativity. So these these subjects
(19:16):
are connected through these different principles that we understand through
electromagnetism and quantum mechanics. And I think when you look
at it and then somebody I'll be talking about, you know,
my presentation at contact coming up in a couple months. Great,
there aren't some basics in physics. For these principles, we
(19:37):
don't just have to call it woo woo. I mean,
you could call it that, but that's what people you know,
that's what people accuse. Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell
have also been airy fairy. Literally it's a quote airy
fairy metaphysics. It's always been leveled at any new it happens.
Speaker 5 (19:56):
That way until time goes on. Then that's the standard.
It's amazing all these guys were criticized for.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
A hundred years and that it's obvious we knew it all.
Whull lot.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
I think that's what we're talking about here, and I'm
not trying to explain all this away.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
I'm just saying some of these experiences.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
That people have around these phenomenas seem consistent with those ideas.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Fair enough. When we come back, we're going to ask
Simeon about these encounters people have and if he would
call these beings ultra terrestrials, could that be the answer.
You're listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast
to Coast AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on
(20:48):
Beyond Contact speaking with doctor Simeon hin Hey, Doc, how
would you describe this reality? Number one? Is it a
reality onto its own or is it just the way
we perceived things in our natural world? Like, could it
just be this unseen world is in fact part of
our world, but we're not able to always perceive it.
(21:09):
I'm thinking in terms of things like infrared spectrum that
we couldn't see for all of humanity, and then we
developed the technology and now suddenly we can see into
the infrared spectrum. Is it possible that there's this other
realm within our real world that we're just not able
to perceive yet because we don't have that technology.
Speaker 6 (21:30):
Yeah, I think that's a good analogy to look at
it in terms of the frequencies that we're capable of perceiving,
and the technology we have can extend our perception into
other bandwidths that we're not used to perceiving. It's like
that book by Edwin Abbott Flatland that he wrote in
eighteen seventy two. There was a movie based on this too. Yeah,
(21:55):
So the idea behind that was that the we're living
in a certain restricted number of dimensions at least how
our perception works, but there could be other life around
that works at a higher dimensional level. When they intersect
with our reality, it could look like they just show
up out of nowhere, as happens in the Flatland story
(22:19):
accord to the main character, and the main character sees
a sphere show up one day on the tabletop. These
flat Land characters live in a flat world and three
dimensional objects exist and occasionally show up. And what they
find towards the end of the story is that the
government of flat Land knew and this is from eighteen
seventy to is the longest incredible Yeah, they knew about
(22:42):
these spheres and sphere Land, but they didn't want to
tell the Flatlanders for fear of social revolution. Edwin Abbott
was ahead of his time because that seems exactly what
has happened. Sure, And I would say it's more than
an analogy or a metaphor. I think that's literally what's
going on and what really reinforces it ron is our
(23:05):
social consensus reality which is so strong. It's this sense
of tribal belonging, this to our particular society wherever you
live in the world, and it affects our perception and
what we're willing to talk about. That's where sociology comes into.
This is We literally don't talk about things that people
experience because of fear of stigma, ostracism, ridicule, the gigall factor.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's insane, but that's true. Do you think
that that's probably how it is, that there's this unseen
world either within ours or adjacent to ours, and the
paranormal or anomaloss occurrences are when someone gets a glimpse
into that other world. Or do you think it might
be a much larger system and in fact be part
(23:51):
of this massive multiverse or different dimensions that people talk about.
These are very easy direct questions with clear, definitive answers.
By the way, do you think it could be the other,
that it's multi versus in many dimensions.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Or I think it's both the Oh yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:08):
The researcher microelectronic cold fusion researcher Kenneth our Shoulders, who
worked at SRI for a while and was a partner
to how put Off in some projects, said in his writings,
and he discovered charge clusters what we call exotic vacuum objects,
(24:31):
micro ball lightning, if you will, micro sized ball lightning
that can move around in circuits, that can move around
your home. Shoulder said something very much along the line
of what the words you just used, is that these objects,
because we just introduced the idea of primitivity a few
(24:51):
minutes ago, because their permittivity is lower than ordinary objects
you and I are used to, they work at a
much more more rapid rate. And he said that they're
sliding and gliding around in our reality, but they're decoupled
from our physical reality. But they're in the same space
we're in, but they operate at an electronic speed. And
(25:13):
he even suggested that they're life forms that operate at
this electronic speed in the space you're in right now.
You really won't know you're around them until you see
your electronics going on the fritz.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
And that's often reported as.
Speaker 6 (25:27):
Well, things shorting out, batteries dying for Ken's shoulders, and
he was one of many researchers in this tradition. He
showed us that there's another type of electronic activity going
on around us with alternate oscillating permittivity, which he said,
(25:47):
and this is his words, Ron, he said, black organizations
with ghostly properties right in the space we're in. And
it's not talking about parallel realities. He's talking about this
real reality where it starts shifting from changing the basics,
physics constants, the permeability, permittivity. Things are moving in a
(26:09):
different faster way. They have a huge energy density, but
they're in the space we're in. And this seems to
me what people are encountering around UFOs and these other
types of life forms. I mean, it was Stan Gordon,
the researcher from Pennsylvania, his book Silent Invasion nineteen seventy three.
He made this connection of Bigfoot to UFOs that a
(26:30):
lot of UFO researchers didn't want to see, which is
where you get reports of UFO sightings. You get spooky
wooki things showing up the same time, which goes against
the idea that these are just metalships with these little
guys that got in from another planet and kind of
took off and.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Came over here like lost in space.
Speaker 6 (26:51):
What Stan Gordon showed us is, you know, he wasn't
even looking for it on his hotline, which he's been
running since nineteen fifty nine. But you get these cryptids,
Bigfoot and other creatures that we don't have names were
showing up at the same time. These strange shadow type people,
strange voices, weird box like structures, which Trey Hudson has
(27:13):
talked about in his research in the meadows another kind
of hot spot, you know in the southeast a lot.
Katie Page from Colorado saw those strange boxes on the
Elbert County and they saw him at Skinwalker too. So
you get kind of a range of phenomena which suggests
that what Ken Shoulders is talking about it another organization.
(27:35):
We're not talking about separate things. We're talking about entire organizations,
black organizations that are in our midst that only come
through once in a while, and it seems in some
geographic areas they come through a lot more and scare
people away. People sell their homesteads and stuff and get
out of the Marley Woods in Missouri.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Right Ted Phillips, All.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
That is true that within our reality there is another type.
I'm just not giving it a value kind of to
I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's dark.
It's a dark reality. Ken Shoulders even suggested this could
be what dark matter is, which led me to the
idea of sort of dark matter life forms dark matter technologies,
(28:22):
since most of the universe is made of dark matter,
but there also do seem to be parallel realities, and
that's something I've looked at extensively. Just kind of going
back to your teaser question at the last segment, why
do people before their UFO encounters, why do they have
things start showing up before the UFO siding and then afterwards.
(28:46):
It suggests a type of reality that's next to us,
that maybe a little bleed through is coming into our
reality from that other versions.
Speaker 5 (28:58):
We're picking up side, you know, we're picking up on
it us, like when you can tell there's somebody behind.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (29:04):
Yeah, we have these senses and people like who've been
involved with remote viewing like I have, you know, you're
familiar with these types of experiences that remote viewers have.
But it's you know, as Ingo Swan used to say,
this is based on our natural senses, not the five
ordinary senses. Ingo thought we had like twenty senses, but
we simply in the West think they're only five. But
(29:24):
there are many more than that. Lynn Buchanan, one of
the people in the DA program and who still you know,
a teacher in r V, yeah, called it this the
you know, the sixth, the seventh sense, and Hugh Ever
at the third imagined this sort of many world's idea,
(29:45):
and there are permutations of that, but that there's bleed through.
So I mean, I don't want to make it too complex,
but it could be both that within our reality there's
a dark matter version of it, anti matter type of reality.
I mean, Paul Durak, you know, controversially investigated even in
the nineteen twenties and it turned out to be right.
(30:05):
There were other alternate antimatter particles within our reality. It's
not a parallel reality, right, it's here, but you normally
don't see it. But then on top of that, I
have no doubt that there are parallel realities. And it
complicates it for us researchers. What are we dealing with it?
But that's what people experience sometimes, are things just seemingly
(30:26):
coming out of nowhere. And just I had this conversation
with Jacques valet Ones at one of the IRVA conferences
and he said, what they're not telling you to these
UFO researchers, for the most part, is that people are
having a paranormal experiences before their contact. So what does
that tell us. I'm not sure exactly what it tells.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Us, but it's.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
Consistent with the idea of parallel realities and bleeds and
all that.
Speaker 5 (30:51):
When we come back, we're going to ask sim It
about fractals and if he thinks that could point toward
us living in a simulation. You're listening to Beyond Contact
on the iHeartRadio and cost Am Paranormal podcast network. We
(31:19):
are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with doctor simeon
him doct This idea behind fractals is saying that the
universe may be built from repeating informational templates, which to
me points like it might fit right in with the
simulation theory, which physicist Tom Campbell describes as a self contained,
(31:39):
evolving digital information system governed by rule sets.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
Is that how you see it? Would you subscribe to
this theory?
Speaker 6 (31:48):
Well, yeah, the idea that fractals are the basis of
our reality, I definitely subscribe to that idea. I'm not
sure if it's literally just a digital simulation, and if
it is, it's coming from you and me. I mean,
we're the ones creating this digital simulation.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Back to consciousness again.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
Yeah, I mean, if it is a simulation, I'm not
in the conspiracy camp thinking it's someone else like you're
We're in someone else's video game.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
I'm not going that way.
Speaker 6 (32:14):
You're in your own because we know your brain is
assembling all these frequencies into objects and perceptions and so forth.
That's all happening in your brain. It's a good replica
of what's going on out there. Otherwise you'd be bumping
into things all the time. But that doesn't mean that
what you're perceiving is exactly what it actually is. It's
(32:34):
how you're perceiving it, and that's being generated every nanosecond
by you know, the trillions of neurons in your brain.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 6 (32:44):
But the fractal idea is really critical here because I
think we've grown up with a lot of misinformation, especially
in Western society. We've imagined that the universe is based
on these straight lines with Euclidean shapes, you know, squares
and circles, even orbits are elliptical, they're rarely just perfect circles.
(33:06):
We have this perfect geometry in our mind that we
got from the Greeks, but it doesn't turn out that
way when you look at reality. It's all fractal. Going
outward as far as I can see through mountain ranges
and the way clouds are shaped, and the shapes of
rivers with tributaries, and down to the microscale with our
(33:28):
bronchial structure, cardiovascular system, everything is these branching structures and
where people don't know fractals are these branching structures like trees.
That's the way nature really designs things. And we're the
ones that have imposed this linear idea, insisting that it
should be turned into like an even metric that we
(33:50):
can measure. We like this idea, especially the Romans exactly right.
It's very easy to understand going back to the Roman
times two thousand years ago. They love putting straight roads
cross these but that's not how nature really works. And
when you get down to the more micro level, even electromagnetism,
(34:11):
there's a fractal version of it which from all of
our research seems to be responsible for ball lightning. Fractal
rings on rings of electromagnetism can create a kind of
stored condensed magnetism which produces orbs and ball lightning and
micro ball lightning. And this comes out of Department of
(34:33):
Energy Research, David Freiberger and others. So there is a
fractal description of the energetic phenomena that happen at the
smallest scale and all the way out to the biggest scale.
It's fractal, So we're really surrounded by fractals. But our minds,
as you said, Ron, our minds like easy lines and
(34:57):
Euclidean shapes, and this is what we teach our ki
and we insist on the universe working this way.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
But it doesn't really work that way.
Speaker 6 (35:05):
And that's why even in things like cell phones, it's
a fractal based antenna. It's got these structures and small
so you can pick up different bandwidths. It's used in
JPEG compression is based on a fract a algorithm. Satellite communication, right,
you can't send all that data through. You create these
algorithms as you mentioned just a few minutes ago, and
it reinflates like a simulation back to the original sounds,
(35:29):
back to the original image. But if we accept that
it's really fractal, we would have access to a lot
more types of energy and energetic systems the way nature
really works, and that is the root of what's been
called cold fusion, even though that's not the best name
for it. Low energy nuclear reaction. These are fractally based
(35:51):
resonance systems around vortex shapes, and I think we've been
limited in understanding this because we want it to be
euclidian and easy.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
To measure and so forth.
Speaker 6 (36:03):
But if we accept that it's actually more self similar
and it branches off and the branches never really end
in thinking your body, every little sell in there has
to get oxygen. You need that fractal network. If we
worked more along fractal systems instead of making everything into
a grid and even looking grid, we would be working
(36:25):
more along the way nature actually works, and I think
we'd be able to solve a lot more of our
energy challenges right now than the way we're doing it.
So you know, this goes into the whole discussion of
resonance and resonance based systems, but you could have a
whole technology based on this, and I wouldn't be surprised
(36:45):
if that's how some of these UFOs actually generate these
changes that they do in their environment, is through some
sort of resonant effect rather than some sort of huge
application of energy. It's more like a frequency tuning type effect,
and that's where you end up with if you look
(37:06):
at fractals.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
In my view, So the fractals really do matter.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
Now, I'm not sure if it suggests like you propose,
I'm not sure if it suggests a simulation. But you know, Ron,
what it really suggests is that it's not as easy
to understand as you may have thought. I mean, we
can get people to the moon, we can run those
SpaceX rockets that you people who we've all got to
see now, you know, watching these launches on YouTube and
(37:32):
amazingly watching the booster come back, and that's all amazing.
That's all sort of linear Newtonian stuff, and it's good
for that. But in terms of understanding the complexity of
all the different types of life that are out there
and technologies, we would have to look at fractal structure more.
And that is it's a little messier looking because it's branching,
(37:56):
but we can still kind of get a sense of
how it works. But I think that's actually how nature works.
And we've been you know, we're like the outliers. We
think like we're the main thing in all us to
fit with the way we think, we're actually the exceptions.
We're the exceptions because we're insisting that it be linear,
(38:17):
even in your own body. It's all fractal processes we're
always trying to It leads us to be fighting nature
instead of working with it.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
Makes sense. Hey, we've got just a couple of minutes left.
I wanted to ask you before you go here, what
do you think people are experiencing when they encounter what
we call non human intelligence? What do you what do
you think it is?
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Well?
Speaker 6 (38:35):
I literally think that these are life forms just along
the conversation we're having now, that have learned to modulate
their resonance somehow, either through sound or through aggregating electromagnetic
charge electrical charge from the way that their bodies are built,
(38:57):
that they can literally operate in this other mode that
Ken Shoulders was talking about. I mean, this is my
personal view of it, and I'm happy to be proven wrong.
But I think these types of creatures that people talk about,
if we're talking about and you did mention ultraterrestrials before,
we didn't quite get to that. If we're talking about
lifeforms that are indigenous to Earth but still hard for
(39:21):
us to understand or make contact with, they could be
operating at this other level that Ken Shoulders was alluding to,
because they can modulate their frequency in a way that
gives them cloaking ability to move in ways that we
can't usually move in that appearance that bigfoot often has
(39:43):
that they're gliding rather than walking. Maybe just like maybe
they're literally blurry, Maybe they really are gliding, and people
have seen them do this over water. They seem to
not weigh down on the water like you and I
would from eyewould this accounts, so it seems to me
that they're operating at a different frequency.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
Just to kind of simplify it a little bit.
Speaker 6 (40:06):
And just like UFOs can modulate the space time metric
technologically through the meta materials in their very thin hulls,
I think some of these life forms that people are
encountering around and just a section of it are also
able to affect the space time metric. Lifeforms that can
(40:26):
affect the space tymetric naturally from sort of some fractal
frequency based set of principles. That's my gut feeling about it,
based on all the people I've talked to have encountered
these times.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
Well, if that's the case, then then that overcomes the
problem of distance of time, of having enough energy to
make these journeys faster than light travel, Radiation, all of
those things. Hey, listen, we're out of time here, Doc,
but thank you so much. It's really great stuff. I
really appreciate you taking.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
The time man. Thanks Ryan, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 5 (40:57):
You guys can find doctor Heine at Simmy and High.
You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at c
I T D Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking
out contact intheesert dot com. Stay open minded and rational
as we explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio
and Coast to Coast am Paranormal Podcast Network.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out
all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going
to iHeartRadio dot com
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