Unearthing Our Mothers

In celebration of Women’s History Month, Joho and Jon dedicate this week’s episode to the Black trans women whose courage and brilliance helped shape movements for civil rights, LGBTQ+ justice, and social liberation — yet whose names are too often left out of mainstream narratives. Through stories of Frances Thompson, Lucy Hicks Anderson, and Mary Jones, this episode shines a light on resilience, survival, and truth-telling across centuries of systemic harm.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the BFF Blackfeftfem podcasts and then iHeart
podcast Network. Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the
award winning Blackfeftfem podcast where all the intersections of identity
are celebrated. I am one of your hosts, John also
known as doctor John Paul, and just like you, a

(00:25):
fighting from a fucking life right now. Yeah, you know,
I tell you how I'm doing. Not well, bitch. It's just.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
This time change has whooped my ass, like, and it
happens every year, so you would think your girl would
be ready for it, and I feel like other years
I was fine, but like maybe.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's my age, maybe it's just me. Maybe baby, because
the world's not fire, but I don't know, but it's
just I can't. Every time I wake up, I'm like,
oh my god, I'm so tired. And so yeah, this
this this year, it's it's given, honey, It's really given.
And she's not taking it in a good way. She's

(01:18):
not taking it in a good way. But anyway, how
are you my life? Girl?

Speaker 3 (01:23):
I have to tell you of the same the fucking way.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
Friends, it is your girl, Jordan aka Joho, your best See,
I'm right through with you, bitch.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
I thought we collectively agreed to eliminate the.

Speaker 4 (01:33):
Time jump at some point in time, but we haven't.
For some reason, Gonferend is still behind the curve. And
I just want to say, studies show that it's dangerous
for people, like people get heart attacks when they have
the when they have the spring for your circadian rhythm
is no longer rhythmic.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
Girl.

Speaker 4 (01:47):
So I'm like, why why are we? Why are we
punishing our world to do this? It's not fun.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
I'm not enjoying it. I too, like, do I love
the longer hours for daylight? Sure? Do I love the
I'm like, what time is it on doing here?

Speaker 1 (02:01):
No?

Speaker 3 (02:02):
I do not. I'm tired, I'm stressed. I want to
say blessed, but it's just IT'SUYD mean the stressed speech.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
It's given.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
It's giving like struggle struggled, like it is driving the
struggle bus, and it is like hitting us. It's going
forward and backwards, fording backward over our body. It's not
you can let up a little bit, you can actually
calm down.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
I'm like, hell, somebody, hell, somebody, can't you today help me?
The bells they was they was on they were on.
They were always I said, I know I need that
help to baby, And if I've gotten older, I've come
to understand, like when I was younger, I didn't really

(02:46):
comprehend like why my mom or anyone, any adult for
that matter, was so tired. And now as an adult.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
I'm like, right, I'm like, oh, girl, you all.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Do be girl.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Hell right.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
This episode is just gonna be titled help. But anyway,
with that being said, this week we're going to jump
into are still here category and this is where we
give all of our flowers to the iconic Miss Tisha
Campbell by just saying we're still here. And this week
we wanted to kick off our show by asking, when

(03:22):
you think about your legacy, when you think about what
makes you legendary, who or what do you think has
been the biggest impact on it's like on your legacy
as a whole. And so I figure since this episode,
for those of you who have not seen by the
title of the episode, we're going to be celebrating black women,

(03:43):
black trans women in this episode. But I definitely wanted
to say that one of the people who has had
the most impact on me. You all know that my
mom is everything to me, y'all know how I felt
about that wonderful lady. I genuinely, genuinely don't believe. Yes
we do. We speak at Weena's name, thank you, Mom
for being such a wonderful mom. She does. I don't

(04:03):
think that she's figured out how to listen to a
podcast yet, and even if so, I don't think that
she would. But I will say my mom knows that
everyone knows that I love that lady dearly. So all
that to be said, I'm very much just very grateful
for my mom and how she reared me and my
brother as we were growing up. And we've talked about
that in other episodes about why mothers in general are

(04:25):
so important. I think we did. Did we do a
mother Have we done a Mother's Day episode?

Speaker 3 (04:29):
I actually don't recall.

Speaker 4 (04:31):
I don't think we discussed our mothers in other ways,
but I don't think we've done like an episode dem.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Okay, I think we made that. We got to put
a pin in that, because.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
Should we have them on, you know what I could try.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
I could try. I don't know if my mom would
because my mom is very like I don't want to
be in front of nobody's camera because she doesn't even
like really taking pictures, but I would try. I could
ask her, I could try to tap her. Baby. All
that to be said, outside of my mom, I was
gonna say, I think the people who don't get the
most credit are the aunties. And I'm not talking about
older black women. I'm talking about our like our true aunties,

(05:09):
the aunts who genuinely specifically and I put in the
notes black aunts don't get enough of the love for me,
especially since so many of them help raise us, like
I know my you know, my Auntie Yolanda, my Auntie Kim,
my Auntie Savannah. At one point, like all of the
aunts that were there for me growing up in different ways,

(05:30):
they jumped in when my mom wasn't able to if
my mom was at work, or if my mom was
dealing with the situation with my brother or dealing with
like family stuff. My mom was always very very very
very busy in a lot of different ways, and so
it was always really nice when like one of my aunts,
specifically my AUNTI Yolanda, when she would jump in and
you know, give us dinner, or you know, give us

(05:52):
a bath, or take us, you know to a school function.
You know, my aunt was real good for that. If
my mom was unavailable, she would come down and be like, yo,
I got y'all. You know your mom told me to
take you. And so it just all that to be said.
I think black aunts, the black woman has had the
biggest impact on the in a variety of ways. And
I definitely just want to shout out all of the
women black or not who and and and they also

(06:14):
can be trans too because in our communities right, black women,
specifically black trans women, they help raise us in a
lot of ways too, and so I just felt the
need to shout them out. But what about you? Who
are the those that have helped you per se?

Speaker 3 (06:26):
That's what I want to say.

Speaker 4 (06:27):
I really agree that, I really agree that we don't
talk about we don't talk about the Black mounts enough
because this is the woman that sometimes as your name right,
take place of your parents if you need them to,
or sometimes provide you safety and shelter from your parents,
or just additional support systems. And so I'm think I'm
thinking asking, I'm thinking of the scene impose between prede
Talents on the one played by by by Miss Shackay.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Harry, who supported him with his mom couldn't write.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
Who helped him make sure that he found wishes were
were taken seriously when you actually passed away.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
I really think that's there's there's important. There's an important.

Speaker 4 (07:03):
Role right when you when you think when you think
of like when you think of like the main trick
of her family, it isn't always just like your immediate
mom is. It is like her sisters or like you know,
or like the cousins right like like like especially in
black spaces, it's like like the women represent a whole
holyage of like strength and like a pillar of like support.

(07:23):
But it's like, but like we only focus on one
section of that. And so I appreciate you naming like
the the the blanc, the black consen here, And I
think of also, I think of my sister who kind
of gave me the like like black mom and blank
black blanc, black mom and black experience.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
You know when I was when when I was, when
I was in the.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
Bay recently, I went to this coffee and R and B. Event,
I met this guy and we were hanging off. We were, yeah,
being aflating a lot, and like we really into each other.
At one point he was like, you kind of defie
the stereotypes of being raised by a white mom, which
at first, I was like an interesting comment to receive,
Like I don't even know how to tell that.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
I was like, huh, I don't know how to feel
about that comment.

Speaker 4 (08:06):
It was like I was like like, but like, but
I do get it, Like there is there is, right,
like in the black community, there is oftentimes well you're
raised by black mom or white mom, and like that, like, right,
that makes a difference.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
We're talking.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
We don't talk so much about blacks and white dads,
but we dead me about black moms.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
Definitely black mom versus you know, I mean you.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
Know, and like to that point, like that spicy immigrant
white right, so like to me like like it's a
little bit different anyways than like your historical right like
white that's been here for generations and ship. But like
like but I was if I was telling my sister,
and my sister was like and I had to give
it to her because she influenced a lot of my

(08:47):
blackness in my format of years. Like I think like
she right, Like she taught me about hair care, she
taught me about like shed, she talked me about like
talking about like having some swagger. Like she she definitely
like like like gave me that like black parents experience,
which I really wish, like like like it's true, and
like when I think when I think about my blackness,

(09:07):
I often think of her first. I think about like
where my black has come from in that way, right
because like like like I like my dad, Like my
dad gave me very specifical like black mill experiences, but
like not the lens of like celebrating blackness, just your
lens of like being a black male, which is I
think different experience and like celebrating your blackness as a
black person. My sister gave me that, And so I
really do to really should be shot your name in here.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
She'll never listen to this.

Speaker 4 (09:29):
She's like podcast girl, I billy, I billy want to
do I want like to talk to you on the phone.
But like but like that, you know, but she like
she really has helped me shape who I am a
black person in the world, especially especially as a mixed
bat person.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
I mean, how I show up in my full blackness.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
And so I really I really do have to like
say like I think I think that's what I think
about when when I think of like my legacy. I
think that, like I don't like I think I think
her particularly her hand in This makes me want to
be like makes me want to be the black auntie
to like all the people that I support, right like yeah,
like like I mean I ha think auntie like sometimes

(10:08):
like like sometimes people see as like oh like like
like like she's bougie, she's selfish, but but I think
that's that's what your frame, like like frame aunties or
they're unmarried or spinsters and like I and like I
Ivy was like I was like to me, it's like
like like I'm independent, I'm self sufficient, I'm fun I'm funny,

(10:31):
right Like I want to be the auntie to like
my friend's kids or like my you know, like like
mother Sobbing's kids that that there their child can like
rely on for emotional support. But also if they if
if they're like hey, girl, like how I sneak off
to a party one night and like usually I'm like sure,

(10:52):
make sure you text me about everything what you're doing,
because if.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
You the ones.

Speaker 4 (10:56):
I listen like like like like they don't not dumb.
If you fuck up, I will tell your parents you
up right, like and you and I with wealth, cash
that heat. But like, but what I can do is
like help them, you know, like not be too stringent
upon you. But don't don't main a little dumb girl.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Dumb we'll have a problem, don't.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
Okay, I'm not day So yeah, that's real.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
And yeah, and so in a way, I guess you know,
when we're talking about I mean kind of this is
a great way to kind of segue into what our
next category is going to be, and and and all
of that to be said, Well, we're gonna talk about
it in a sec I think it's really cool to
think about how much we and I know that, you know,
the black woman specifically doesn't get the credit that they
deserve for how they shape the world and how they

(11:42):
shape folks in the world. And when I say folks
meaning us, right, you know, other people's kids, the culture,
all of the things. But I think it is such
a beautiful thing to say, or to at least say,
like Auntie specifically kind of going into this notion around
you know, a celebrating black women today. It really is
really cool to know that like your sister, your aunt's,

(12:03):
my aunts, you know, and even my sister to a nixtent,
I don't talk. We all know when we've had this conversation.
I don't talk to my sister. But all that to
be said, like there was a point in my life
where my sister was also very pivotal in helping my
mom because my sister was ten years older than me
and my brother, and so that she was able to
step in and you know in moments where my mom
couldn't do things, was or needed help me and you know,

(12:24):
baby sent me and my brother or watch us for
the week or whatever the case may be when we
were off. But all that to be said, just I
always go back to that meme you know black women.
You know that's just just black.

Speaker 4 (12:38):
Well, you know I was watched say as well, Like
like just the last thing I want to say is
that they all like we don't give them enough credit
for also being like the keepers of our histories. Yeah,
the stories right, like they're bout the keepers and the
and the orders of it.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
Like I just now it's ane day.

Speaker 4 (12:51):
I spent time with with I think my dad's sisters,
and they were talking about so much about like their
childhood and their past.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
I have never known from my dad, right, like my
sister and my brother were like, we never knew that.

Speaker 4 (13:00):
And I'm like and and like my like, well, my god, sister,
she's like eighty one, so you know, like her, you know,
like her memory could not.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Maybe not be a sharp, but she is sharp. She
is sharp as as my nails. Like she is sharp.
And so it's like and so we also.

Speaker 4 (13:15):
Need have credit to how they preserve history for us
and how they pass it down to those to those
beyond them.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
That is that's super real. And I think a lot
of there would be no ancestry dot com if it
wasn't for the black aunties and the folks who are
holding own to the history. So I love to see it.
But with that being said, now that we have reminded
you all to check in with those who have impacted
your legs, we're gonna take a quick break to pay
uncle Scamp and when we come back we'll have more shows.

Speaker 4 (13:49):
All right, then we are back, and for this week,
we are diking episode to Women's History Month by celebrating
those who are at overlooked when we talk about women's history.
Once to begin our category this week by celebrating a
few black trans women who have made profound contributions to
civil rights, gqbus activism, and social justice yet remain under
celebrated due to contenting marginalizations. So this week we're weave

(14:12):
together a moment to celebrate Francis Thompson's congressional testimony, a
line from Lucie Lucyx Anderson's trial, and tabloid headline about
Mary Jones, a semit that we want to call unearthing
our mothers.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
Amen.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Amen, Yes. So I initially had said, I think it's
so easy for us to just, you know, jump on
the mic and say celebrate women's history. But I often
think about how often black specifically black trans women are
kind of like forgotten for all the things that they
do in terms of putting their own lives and their
own bodies and their own experiences on the line. And

(14:48):
so I went off into the ether of the the
interwebs and I said, I would love to know more
about black trans women who have not been uplifted. And again,
we know they're multiple names, their current names that I
believe now that are creating history. But these women specifically
did different things that I think are really really important
for us to know in this moment, specifically knowing everything

(15:09):
that's going on in the world. I think this will
help us have sort of a blueprint to be able
to say, Okay, these are people that now I know about,
I can go back and do research on and figure
out how they use their experiences to be able to
kind of create change or be able to kind of
reshape or redream what history could look like for us
as black LGBTQ people. So first off, I'll start with

(15:31):
Francis Thompson. This is just a quick blurb, and if
I do miss stuff, please forgive me, y'all. It was
not intentional for me to just be like, oh, I'm
just gonna say this really small thing and move on
for time. We can't really dive into like a full,
like deep dive into each of these people. So I
initially went in and I said, I want to know
the most important thing that they did and how it

(15:52):
impacted us, and then how we can ultimately learn from
it or questions we can ask from it, so that
way we can have more of a deep discussion. So
something right, learn something from this. So with Francis Thompson,
they were a formally enslaved black trans woman in Memphis
who survived the eighteen sixty six Memphis massacre. I don't

(16:14):
know much about the Memphis massacre, and this just is
a reminder for me of how much more research I
need to do and how much more learning of history
I need to do. But what I did find is
that she bravely testified before Congress about the racist violence
and rape she endured, helping push the country towards stronger
civil rights protections, even as she was later punished in

(16:35):
police for living openly as a black trans woman. My god, like,
so I just I say this in to frame eighteen
sixty six, girl like to be an openly black trans
woman in eighteen sixty six, My god, I couldn't imagine.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Girl, I couldn't imagine. Why I'm prizy.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
So folks have a little bit of like like of
like a like a context. So eighteen sixty six, right
is is after the Civil War, right, Civil War sixty five,
and so this is.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
Part of the the re reconstruction.

Speaker 4 (17:12):
Era where they're trying to try the America is maybe
trying to help free black slaves, like with more rights
and such. But there's also a tension from the folks
who didn't want that, like Confederate army people and so
and so. In Memphis, Tennessee. There's a lot of tension
between white policemen and black like and black veterans of
the war on the Union army side, and so they

(17:34):
had begun to altercations and then became a like a
big mob and massacre that mainly impacted black folks. I think,
of course, like I think like forty five black folks
were killed, two white folks were killed then and like
then like all one hundred people black folks were like
robbed injured, and then and then if five women were
five women were essially assaulted as well too, and so

(17:56):
and so from that moment, Congress Society to host like
a like uh a trial committee about with that incident,
because we're trying to be quote unquote better, and so
Francis Thompson wasn't vited to speak on that, and that's
where testimony came in. And we'll get more into that
as we get these names. Next on the list is

(18:17):
Lucy Hicks Anderson, who was a black trans woman chef
and community hostess how you doing for a boarding house
as one would call it, who lived openly as a
girl from childhood and became beloved figure in ox Star California.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Okay, was right up the street from US Okay.

Speaker 4 (18:37):
But she was married twice and the second marriage of
quatern devalued her marriage and charged with fraud because.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
It was it was, it was, it was like a
whole it was like a whole thing.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
Like she was charged with fraud based on like like
miss misalignment of of your sex on her duct's right.
But then but then like when they like let they
like left their let the off scott free from not
not scott them off from that, they tried her again
for first she not enlisting in the army and being

(19:09):
fraudulent that way. So then they so they arrested her
and her husband because she also got like g I
bill from saying g I bill funding from that.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
And so they then and then the rest of them
both for fraud and for them in prison of them both.

Speaker 4 (19:23):
But the first time she was where she was charged
with fraud for marriage, it did not take in the courts.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
It was wild. But that said, she stood.

Speaker 4 (19:32):
Her ground in court and she insisted with this powerful line,
I have lived dressed acted just when I.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
Am a woman. And so she said that as like
as as as like a while like why.

Speaker 4 (19:44):
Would I like, like, how how could you say I'm
not real? I have lived, dressed and acted just as
as I am a woman this entire time? Like what
was a science? Was a science sex for me?

Speaker 3 (19:55):
Right? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Lucy said, I am who I am?

Speaker 3 (19:58):
I know that's who I am.

Speaker 4 (19:59):
Girl, Yes, I is who I am, Yes I.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Know, Yes, I'll tell you everything. So I was gonna say,
real quick before we go into our to our next icon,
I was gonna say, Francis Thompson was was she alive
at the time they chopped down? That it was a
cherry tree, an apple tree? Who was the man who
chopped down the apple tree? Is that part of our history? Joey?

(20:26):
Can you is that the way somebody can pull up
some information about the cherry tree or the or the
the apple tree, there's some somebody chopped.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
Down apple tree?

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Talking about somebody chomped down the apple tree. I don't know.
George Washington, I think so was this before or after
the apple tree?

Speaker 3 (20:49):
That was the question that what's what is this a
cherry tree? But what's this cherry tree? What is But
also no, because Washington was I.

Speaker 4 (20:58):
Think before, uh was way way before Miss Francis Thompson girl.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
I didn't lie about I'm trying to do the elementary
school history, says our producer. Yeah, so you know, I'm
gonna always find something something to say a lie. I see, yes, yes,
I just wanted to know she was alive. Could you
imagine fress Is being up there and talking about somebody
out here, lie, if I'm chopping down the cherry tree. Girl,
I'm just kidding. I just I don't know. It's so silly,

(21:31):
and I don't know why that cable, but I'm like,
I wonder if she was alive at the time when
they was talking about that cherry tree. Yeah, but anyway,
all that to be said, So our next icon is
Mary Jones. That's that's a black ass name. That's Mary Jones,

(21:51):
Mary Jones. Mary Jonson is Missus Jones, Missus Jones. Mary
Jones is that neighbor that got the that be walking
up down the street. Everybody, no, Mary Jones, don't take
no shit.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
That's Mary Jones right there.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Mary Jones don't take nobody shit. But she aha, and
everybody respects Mary Jones. But Mary Jones was a black
trans woman and sex worker in eighteen thirties New York,
New York City, one of the earliest black trans women
we have on record in the US. She moved between
low wage working night life, survived by any means available,

(22:27):
and was later sensationalized by press in ways that exposed
early patterns of racist, transphobic criminalization. So Mary was one
of the dolls. But I also think Mary pretty much
set the precipice for these systems weren't created for me,
and I gotta do what I gotta do to survive.
And so that's one of the reasons why Mary Jones

(22:49):
is so iconic. And I wish I don't know if
there are any photos of these individuals, but I will
say I think it is imperative even without the photos,
or even without them being in our real history books,
I think, and I say real meaning, like the true
history books that we should be learning from. I think
it is so cool to know that even before you

(23:09):
know and again we're going to talk about Marshall, we're
going to talk about you know a lot of other
trans women who we look up to and we adore
in our lives. Now, there were women who were making
like these women. When you talk about International Day of
Women or when you think about Women's History Month, Like
these women were genuinely creating and making history at a
time when specifically black trans women were not being given

(23:33):
any opportunity to do any of that. Yeah, it just
it blows my mind to know that it wasn't up
until now that I that I didn't know who any
of these women were.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
I know there's portraits of Francis and Lucy, like like
the Watal portraits, I think Mary's and Mary's illustration and
John think what thank you so much for like for
doing the research like like like I had known a
little bit about Francis before, simply because of the of
the Memphis mass sacure but messecure MESSACUEU, but I hadn't

(24:08):
know much about Lucy or Maryan so I had got
to do some misrech as well from that, So thank you.
So starting with Francis, I want to engage a thought
around the emotional and political costs of to the truth
the institutions are also the source of harm.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Why do we think it's important? And especially now?

Speaker 4 (24:23):
And so for me, I really feel like it's all
about risk and what's worth the risk is or a possible
reward for that risk, right, Like for Francis to give
testimony in court an agencyxty six. She knew what was
at risk, right, like beyond her freedom of her possible life.
She survived the Memphis race rights and then testified against
the folks who who raped her. I cannot imagine the

(24:44):
courage she hass, the emotional toll, right was having to
relieve the trauma and knowing at some point the euroscience
that could be exposed. Right, is that increased the risk
of being supposed to despite having navigated life in her
consistent general Well, I was interesting about Francis as well too.
Is that so she was enslaved before and then became
free after her after her her masters were killed?

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Right? But I find interesting is that when she I hate.

Speaker 4 (25:11):
That, I hate that word, like her masters her, I
would say, like her abductors. Abductors, yeah, doctors, but but
like but when she was enslaved.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
They like they they they they.

Speaker 4 (25:23):
Had no issues with her presenting as as a girl.
Likely when she was like right, when she's enslaved, like
they enslaved. They when they they enslaved her, I hate
this is this is so gross to the time all
doesn't allow. But like when I inslaved her like they
and slaved her, asked her assigned sex and then when
she said, like, I'm.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
I'm a girl.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
They they they were like, okay, girl, be a girl,
which I think is girl.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
I'm like that's wild.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Like oh, like, so you're saying that you can't be free,
but you can't be a woman. I'm right. I'm like,
so they enslaved you, but they were transphobic, right ha
ha yeah, well yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
And so you know, and so I said it to
say that there is a little bit there was a
little bit.

Speaker 4 (26:02):
Of a political reward this, right, Like, according to history,
her testimony moved people contribute to the country being pushed
further into its reconstructions era, which was centered around establishing
rights for freed slaves and attempting attempting to limit racial bias.
We all know how that how that panned out though,
and so right and so like really early her testimony,

(26:22):
while I did nothing for the folks who who harmed her,
right they were they had no repercussions. That pushed people
who heard that testimony just say we need to do
something about preventing violence, like like again like against against
new free black folks. I also say when I'm thinking
about Francis. I am wondering if she's kind of like

(26:42):
the first statistic, you know, like when they just shows
the average lifespan of transfoman like like right when it
comes to somebody, like like like, was she the first
marker is put in this data?

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Right?

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Like she died at thirty.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
Six, which is not far from the statistics of let
us fantasy for murder transforman right and when clear and
saying this is not the life effidency of like just
an aviage rus woman who's living their life, but of
a murger woman. And she wasn't murdered, but she did
face a lot of violence, which is a huge part
of the data. So I'm like, oh, like would she
be like one of the first sakes thinner pieces in
this or like what was she included this?

Speaker 3 (27:16):
I just I'm so curious about that.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, that's actually a really good point and thinking about
where or how that data like where it started, right,
where was the where was the mark for for us
to start thinking about what happens to black trans women
throughout their lived experience and how many different moments or
experiences of violence and where that violence starts or how

(27:39):
it follows them. There are so many things that I
think is very interesting about France's journey. But what I
will say, you know, to your question thinking about you
know and when you ask the question like what does
this mean for us? Or how does that? Why is
it so important for us to be paying attention to
it now? The thing that immediately came to my mind
was Zora Neil Hurston's quote when she says, if you

(28:01):
are silent about your pain, they'll kill you and say
you enjoyed it. And I think Francis knew they were
going to basically play in her face about what she experienced.
They knew, she knew the systems were working against her.
She knew even at that time right like again, none
of this stuff was meant for me to survive, Like
I was not meant to survive any of this, And so,

(28:23):
like many of us do, she wanted the world to
know that it happened, even if she knew that the
world was going to try to silence her in the process.
And so so many of us right now are experiencing
that in different ways right whether it be through our jobs,
whether it through the censoring that we see on social
media platforms. Like I just experienced that for the first
time on TikTok last week. Right, I used a hashtag

(28:45):
and saw my numbers do zero on two of my
posts because I used that LGBTQ hashtag. So like, we
see the world as working very very like, like literally
working every single minute and every single second of the
day to make sure that we don't talk about who
we are and what we live through. And I think
it's more than I need to tell my story. It

(29:07):
was more about her giving others the agency to open
up about what they experienced and basically saying, even if
you do kill me, this story is still going to exist.
People are going to know that this happened because I
was the one who told it. So, I mean, how
many times have we been emailed or stopped and told
that us sharing our story on the mics have helped

(29:27):
others figure out their own situation or figure out what's
going on in their own life.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
Right.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
I think that's why folks have worked so hard to
cover up her story. It tells us that this is
a system that has happened for what over two hundred years,
and how to see it, acknowledge it, and how to
make sure or even giving us the gumption, I should say,
giving us the gumption to want to do something to

(29:53):
end it. So I think that that's something that I
want all of us to think about when we think
about Francis. Now thinking about Lucy, the thought that I
had was how does her story connect to current debates
about id's passports and gender markers for black trans women, Like,
is was there anything that came up for you so
about Lucy's Yeah, So her story makes be sad because one.

Speaker 4 (30:14):
I'm I'm unsure what's actually changed since then, you know,
like muctually changed since this for Lucy, we had a
period of time where people were able to smooth the
access more smoothly access getting gender markers changed on the
legal documents, and now that's structured.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
They think her storymans should.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
Realize that trans women have been facing document found in
prison for damnear eighty plus years, right, because she's in
prison for ten years, I believe, and she had to
dress in her assigned sex clothes, and so was I
facing emotional and physical violence in that way. And this
I think outlines the importance of trans folks needing the
legal documents to reflect the generity so that they don't

(30:53):
have to experience gener bus violence or restrictions anymore. And
so I think like that like that's what makes me
think about in some ways. But I think her story
like I think, I think I think it connects to
debates and like in on that front.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
But I think also it really like it shows.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
That we've kind of have been no progress too, that
we still are debating like one gender, an expression and
who they are as a person. We have documented, we
have almost one hundred years, we have more than one
hundred years of document history of transplots existing, and we're
still like we already know if they exist or not,

(31:31):
right like we like we like this is like or
like we're still held visibly that this is their choice.
And so I think I think also also to me,
like I might think about if I'm you know, if
I'm arguing, if I'm arguing with somebody, right like, like
I said, we've actually been in history for like as
long as this country is almost as has been a country,

(31:52):
you know and like and so like obviously like we're
not we're not leaving.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
We're here, We're going to be here. So that's that's
what I think about.

Speaker 4 (32:00):
But as we close out the segment, I also want
to think about how we can reframe Mary's story as
her being a strategist for survival rather than a spectacle
and ask how does her and her talk about transistory
and agency.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, so when I was thinking about Mary's I wouldn't
even I don't want to call it a struggle because
I think the struggle it really takes away from what
Mary did and how Mary lived, especially at a time
where I know, And that's the thing I have to
constantly check in with myself a lot about, Like right now,
I'll say this like on the air, like I have

(32:35):
been going through so many like my mind has been
going a mile a minute about all of the things
that we're seeing, all of the things that we're experiencing,
and I still have to like check in with myself
and say, girl, yes it may be hard right now,
but you didn't have to deal with what Mary dealt with.
You'll never touch what you know France has dealt with,
and you'll never ever, You'll probably never and maybe we will,

(32:56):
I don't know, but I'm saying, like in this moment,
I have not seen with Lucy Hicks, you know, dealt
with So I have to like check in with myself
a lot when I'm feeling away. Not to say that
how I feel is not valid, but what I'm saying
is I have to constantly think about that to help
me keep going and keep wanting to do what I do.
But my thoughts have always been we've always critiqued the oppressed,

(33:19):
but we've never talked about the oppressor. And I think
Mary did what she needed to do to survive, like
so many of our black LGBTQ family members, And so
what I mean by that is, and what I'm saying
is we don't critique the people who have made these
systems impossible for black, transit black LGBTQ people to survive.
We always talk about the sex worker, We talk about

(33:41):
the transperson doing sex work. We talk about how deplorable
the act of sex work is, but I'm going no
one is. And that's what I've been saying. If you
think sex work is so bad, give them a good job, right,
Give them a job well that will allow them well
well right, give them a job that allowed them benefits.
Give them a job that will give them time off,

(34:03):
give them give them a job that will will help
them pay for their their hormones. Give them a job
that will help them pay for food, you know what
I mean, Like you've got so much since you got
your degrees, you know, you know what I mean, Like
you're talking so much about these trans women and and
the work that they're doing, but you're doing absolutely nothing

(34:23):
to change their situation. So that's where my mind immediately went,
and I said, Mary did what she needed to do.
And I tell people all the time, a lot of
the folks who do sex work in our community aren't
doing it because they want to do it. It's often
a means to an end. They have to do it
in order to survive. So instead of talking poorly about them,

(34:44):
why not learn something from them about the thought of resilience,
this idea that so many of us, including us, including
us with the show, including me with my book, including
you with your degree, Like whatever the case may be,
we're doing a lot of stuff with absolutely nothing, with
no support, with no direction, And I just I keep

(35:06):
thinking about as much as like I said, everyone's just
like yay women, I think about what it means right now,
Like I constantly just keep thinking about what is really
going on in the minds of black trans women in
this moment, Like knowing that like they're experiencing statewide violence,

(35:27):
they're experiencing violence from their own families. You know. I
see people making jokes about black trans women needing to
carry guns, and it's like, yeah, you know that's real,
But also that the idea that they're living in constant
fear because the world has made it for and again
since eighteen thirty, we've been here even before. This is

(35:48):
the first document in case that we know, So I
just I think about that, right, Like it's just it's
frustrating to think that we spend so much time talking
about what we don't like about people who are doing
things in order to just just make it day to day.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
People are making in front of folks transports of guns y'all.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
Because again, I'm like, it's offer in games.

Speaker 4 (36:11):
So someone has time shows them on the doorstep girl
without bliky in their hand, because you.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
They have to, but they have.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
I'm like they have like like they have to. I
mean we right, we've been through instance.

Speaker 4 (36:22):
When we want to do an episode, we talk about
like like like like the like there's a shift and
like and like trans gun rights and I'm like that's
so wild to me. But also like I can't imagine
what the city that that they feel, and so they
wanted they had suspension for them. So I'm like, I
wanted to export that more, you know, And I would

(36:42):
also I would be remiss at this moment right to
not raise up Marsha P.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
Johnson in this moment and.

Speaker 4 (36:48):
And our sister show After Lives she can find out
I heard heart me. This network as well too has
to buy our sister, Riquel Willis. And especially if folks
have not read the biography by Tourmaline, who should be
on the show.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
We should have to ask me on the show.

Speaker 4 (37:02):
Because the Marshall was so much more than like just
to quin through the brick, right, she was a catalyst
for understanding MITCHI will aid work more broadly in quick communities,
for having a full life even with mental health and
behavioral challenges.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
And she really.

Speaker 4 (37:15):
Embodied being a living blueprint for those who do not
have it whatsoever. And so I really want people to
like I I want to. I want to, I want
to understand, like it's like we have we we think
we have this like silly history of Marsha B. Johnson
and like they put it just the girl through the brick,
But like, she's much.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
More than that.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
And all these women that we talked about are so
much more than just at the moments in which they
became famous. They're like they had full lives and they
live lives that were both like with struggle but also
with victories.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
And I'm gonna Stele Bray honor both of those for folks.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, I love I love that. You may not to
cut you off, but I was gonna say, I love
that you said that she's more than just the woman
who through the brick, because that's always the first thing
people go to, and I'm going no, she was the
mother of uh a star Yeah, HIV AIDS care. She
was the mother of helping unhoused LGBTQ people find homes

(38:14):
like she she helped keep so like more than just
the keeping folks who were living with AIDS HIV alive.
She was helping us stay alive in so many ways.
And so I just I genuinely think that like Marcia,
like all of these women, like I said, laid the
foundation for what we could learn. And it also I

(38:36):
want to say this too, I would be remiss to
not say that black trans women have always been at
the front of rights like every single moment where we
have people have had to fight for our rights, There's
always been a black trans woman throughout history, and this
proves it that has said this is some fucked up
shit and we need to change it, or this fucked

(38:57):
up thing happened to me, and I don't want it
to happen to someone else. And so every time you
celebrate someone like, oh, there's such a there's such a revolutionist,
not to take away from the revolutionary thing that they're doing.
I always want to make sure that we point back
and say, there was a trans black woman who did
something before that girl and gave you that that basically
that play by play to help you be able.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
To do what you're doing. So that's right, Well, fam,
that'll be giving you.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
They'll be giving you some shit to chew on and
then encourage you to throw a brick like our good
sis Marcia p would.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
And come back with more show states.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
I know that's right. Will you stay ready? You and
you got all right, y'all, and we are back with
this week's What's Popping segment. This is where we jump
into our pop culture bag and we discuss anything and
everything that's going on in pop culture, and I'll be

(39:57):
honest and saying there's a lot of shit that is happening,
and a lot of it it is heavy. So I said, Okay,
I said, what can we talk about that's ultimately not
going to trigger the listener but also me too much
to make me want to go off on this mic.
And So even though this topic in this conversation might
be a little heavy, I think it's a very interesting
one that I think I've been that I've been saying

(40:17):
I want to have and I'm so happy that we're
finally out of place to be able to have it.
So I do want to say this. There will be
some spoilers in this segment. So if you have not
watched this season of Traders, you may want to fast forward.
You may want to fast for you.

Speaker 4 (40:32):
Need.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
You're doing yourself a disservice.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
Okay, reason you haven't seen unless you don't have peacock
right right.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
But what I'm saying is is you will be mad
because we will be talking about different things in relation
to this season and you've had two weeks to catch
up hunt You've actually had more time than that. Okay,
But I definitely want to say that if you are
a person who's like, oh, I haven't I haven't finished it.
I'm gonna finish it. I need to skip, go ahead, skip.
We won't be offended. So I wanted to say that
this weeks or the conversation around traders that has been

(41:03):
burning my biscuits is thinking about not only just traders,
but I think the the legion of reality TV shows
that are very much kind of like, how what's the
word for them? What's the word we use? Challenges?

Speaker 3 (41:21):
Is that the right word challenges?

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Well, the reality shows competition shows. Yes, yeah, competition reality shows.
That's what I was trying to say. I've been thinking
a lot about these game shows and these competition shows.
And there's a trend, and you've probably if you follow
me on social media, you know that I've been yelling
about this probably for years. It's the trend of black
players going home early. And so I said, I want

(41:46):
to have a conversation about this because not only am
I sick of it, but it is something that I'm
seeing happen more and more and more as I watch
competition reality shows. And so, like me, being the researcher
that am, I started doing some digging and it was
like what it's going on here, trying to understand right, right,
And so I noticed it with the Path like I

(42:07):
noticed it when I initially started watching Big Brother. I
started noticing, huh, they only put one or two black
people in the house, and they're usually the first person
to either be on the block or they're the first
person to either be voted out. Gode right, And so
I saw that trend happening with Big Brother. Then I
jumped over to Survivor, same thing happening right they they

(42:27):
they bring in four or five black people, they spread
them amongst the different teams, and then usually what happens
the first person that usually go home is the old
person or the older person will be the first person
because quote unquote they don't have the tenacity to stay
on the team. Is that a puppet?

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Do you hear?

Speaker 1 (42:47):
I hear you girl this again? Let me let me,
let me go close this way.

Speaker 4 (42:53):
If someone screaming, I'm not gonna try and find that.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Jorge says, it's not for me, babes, Not for me, babes.
Jordan said, not for me, babes.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
Ma'am in twenty twenty six. I am not trying to say.

Speaker 4 (43:18):
A whole Jordan said, it's not for me, babees, not
for me, not much.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Not for me, babes.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
Okay, libs, good luck.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
So then I noticed when we so leaving Survivor, I
was like watching both the UK and the American Trader
the same thing happened, And I said, Okay, there is
something happening here and it's not just me complaining about it.
There are other people out there who are actually tracking it.
And so with that, because like I said, I was,
I tried to figure out if it was just me
being me because I'm always thinking about black queer people,

(43:48):
you know, thinking about how Bob got voted out, you
know quickly, how they voted out who was before Bob.
There was another black quare person, Peppermint. They voted Peppermint
out first, right, So I thinking how they not even
Bob wasn't voted out first, but they did gang up
on on Bob and then they eventually voted them out.
Same thing happened this season right where they you know, Monique,

(44:08):
all of them, everybody, everyone was a target. Sony Njne
Sorryne sorry, don't get don't get after us yea yea
yea yea yeah Mone sorry. Note So all of that
to be said, there there is data behind it. So
on Survivor, black players are forty percent more likely to

(44:29):
be out with Beat, with Bipop first tribe voters often
being fifty nine percents higher, and on a Big Brother,
black players are eliminated eleven point seven percent earlier. So
there is something that's happening here, and it's called verse racism.
And it's the idea of people who see themselves as

(44:51):
fair still discriminating when they can blame it on something
non racial like challenge strength or social vibes. Right, so
this person doesn't so like thinking about like me and
Jonathan are watching uh, I think it's the twenty thirteen
Big Brother season, and there's a woman on there currently
who is like, she's not necessarily saying that she doesn't

(45:11):
like the black folks in the house, but she has
made racist comments and she's done racist things to feed
into the adverse racism, and so I was like, I'm like,
I'm like, it's not just Big Brother, Like, what the
fuck is this? So I just want to know what
your thoughts are on it, and then I'll give some
thoughts and they'll be.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
Oh, grind thoughts. Some thoughts and thoughts and thoughts some thoughts,
and I love the data mist thing she said. She said,
let me b get down for y'all real quick live.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
So okay, So I'm not big on competitionality shows except
for like Drag Race or Traders, because I really like
I hate high I hate high pressure, I hate high intensity.
I hate seeing people. I hate like seeing seeing people
do some like Outland and shit. You know, I also
like I watched how I watching like like I watch
like funny ones like House Civilians as well too. But

(45:58):
I and I love this idea of I'm not the idea,
but like I'm I'm so fasted by the concept of
a versus racism because really is speaking to the idea
of of right of like unconscious bias, because like I'm
thinking about in Traders, when you had Dereinda who kept
coming for Ron simply because she felt like he wasn't
as friendly as she as he should have been. And

(46:19):
part of me is that, and like, and part of
me is like is that because you think, because a
man should be more friendly to you as white woman, like,
so he should be like less like like when they
threatening to you, right, you know, they like they came
for Peppermint because they thought she had something that was
that was on a pocket, which should not happen. But
she's also a big she's a big personality, big character,

(46:41):
and I'm like, girl like all because she was actually
showing herself off. You think you just messed up, right
with right with with Bob and Rob, like like Rob
had this whole game play against Bob which was while
and everyone everyone was like so quick to turn on Bob,
and I think right like and like I think this
last season demonstrated with this with with with with this

(47:03):
Rob with Moura, like like it's it's interesting because like
I feel like in season two when you had was
her name, the girl and the guy, they end up
the the the one that was with Peppermint, the girl
and the guy end up winning, right, They and they
had got out the.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
Other woman, the one who was the one who was from.

Speaker 4 (47:24):
The shots of sunset, knowing for well she was she was,
she was a faithful and they got her out so
they can get so they can get the prize themselves
as as youthful. Right and and like I Amalie Amilily
was like damn, like they really got out this like
like like this other woman color who literally like she
was just there for vibes, like.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
She was not like wasn't doing anything.

Speaker 4 (47:47):
Chris was like it was a Chris and something else. No, no, Trisha,
I think it was.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And the other guy, I forget
what his name is. He's very puffy, but I know
you're talking very puffy. Oh was it was it? Like
was it Johnny? I forget what name?

Speaker 3 (48:01):
Like like those two right and then and then right
and so.

Speaker 4 (48:04):
Them them thems, they're like like it's like a like
uh uh, what's the word. Like it's like it demonstrates,
you know, like a white man and white woman who
are both gamers right like the other day their white's
gonna white over everything, right, Ye.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
I think with Robin Mora, you have you have like.

Speaker 4 (48:27):
A white man who's overly confident but like but like
plays plays like a shy game. He's super he's like
conventionally conventionally super hot. You have this other conventionally super
hot girl, white girl who like who was an every
gonna like follow the white man to the to to
the very end, even though every person is like meetings.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
He might be a trade and you're like and she's like.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
No, I believe him.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
I believe really.

Speaker 4 (48:55):
Can't be him, Like like like the ending was so
wild because I was like, she's so commit to believe
in him. And and I'm sure it's not consciously that
she's like attracted to him in anyway, Like I'm I'm
sure it's not like but I imagine, I imagine it's more.
Imagine it's more like like subconsciously she's like she's like
typical hot white man.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Yeah, me typical hot white girl.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
And like it makes sense for us, Like it's like, sit,
staygether for this anything.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
I wouldn't even say to dig into that. It's if
you think about our systems in the way that our
world works, like you are, you are literally trained from
a very young age to believe that every white man
she's trusted. Yeah, it's correct, and she's trusted. And so
even even when they do And and if we really
want to take the scope out of traders right and

(49:44):
zoom out into our political system, look at where we're
at as a country. We've got here because everyone kept saying,
I believe what this man is, even though the government
kept saying this man is a felon, This man has
done these terrible things to women. This man, this man
has had multi multiple bankruptcies. Right, I still were still

(50:07):
trained to trust this no, So so it makes it
easy for me to go. It makes sense that more
would trust him because since we were kids, we were
we've been taught ever since we could talk and we
could think for ourselves, we've been taught to always trust
that white men no know the best.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
You know.

Speaker 4 (50:23):
I will, I will give Rob, but I think he
was the only person that was actively defending Ron at
the on table before they sent him home. And I
was like, I was like, okay, I can give him that, right,
but like seeing Ron having to face so much journey
simply like right, like you had you had Peppermint, who
people thought was too extra. You had Bob, who people
thought was like like like was too strategic.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
You had you had Money who who.

Speaker 4 (50:47):
Like who I thought was like woman was doing pretty
well where I thought they were a great balance. But
like like like they said the wrong thing at the
wrong time that got them out right, yeah, like right,
and then you have Ron lap right you or in
the season right, you had Portia in the season portis
to the wrong thing. She asked this to the wrong thing.
I was like, girl, you sound like like but like

(51:07):
but like they man, we got her out. You got
Candice who like who like literally like who had to
maintain poison calm as accusing her stuff.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
And then the second the second she.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
Like raises her voice like, oh that she's being she's
being aggressive right now, and I'm like, yep, do not
pay us aggressive on because's trying to defend herself.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Against all you all you voultures right now, like what.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Do you mean?

Speaker 4 (51:28):
And then for right like Ron and Ron, you see them.
You see Ron's in there him and just taking it
on the chin. Ron's like and then a voute me
out like the much more can say? And that's also
sad too, right Like, he knows that the odds are
against him this moment because there's nobody to get out
of it, because once they decide that he is not
friendly enough, right was too friendly, too kind tou into

(51:50):
the game.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
And then you have someone who's not remoting into the
and they're.

Speaker 4 (51:52):
Like and like, oh, like they're too suspect, right like,
it's just it's just it's it's true. And I think
they frame it as like it's it's not a race issue,
but like everything is about race, and that's sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Oh oh girl, it is.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
I mean, just for for people who are listening and
have has ever heard someone say it's not about race
or has thought that it's not about race, I would
I would behoove you to really step back and to
really dig into everything that you believe or you think
to be true and how it always comes back.

Speaker 4 (52:28):
I was a disagreement with somebody recently and like, like,
we're race is part of the conversation, and like they
were trying, they were.

Speaker 3 (52:38):
Striving to defend themselves fully.

Speaker 4 (52:40):
Of like how it was about race for them and me,
and there's this to me another black person and like
and I was like you.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
That's in itself.

Speaker 4 (52:48):
But go on us sarre saying that every everything is
about race, Like I don't want it to be true,
but everything is about race. Everything that if we show
up in the world, which we see people or see
things or how they is related to who we are,
like like as a concept of raise.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
So do not tell me racism part of it. Do
not tell me that your reaction.

Speaker 4 (53:08):
To me being too aggressive or too quiet isn't informed
by the reactions about how people treat black folks or
how we and be Racism and everything that we do, like.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
It is a part of everything.

Speaker 4 (53:19):
I wish I could say it wasn't right, but no
ons to have the hard truth about something, it's because
it's all informed. It's like, you cannot build an entire
country off of racism and then be like it's not
about race anymore now. Well, I mean especially, I mean
you even say the whole country.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
I would say the whole world, because if you really
want to take it, if you, like I said, you
want to zoom out right America, Yes it was stolen,
but if we even think about the ways that you know,
the Spaniard folks conquered this thing, and it was always
about white individuals knowing their power and knowing that and
saying we we deserve this. And so I think to

(53:54):
kind of bring it back to the conversation, I think
you're you're really saying a lot of what I what.
I know what I already knew going into this conversation.
But I think it is one of the things that
I want to encourage our listeners to think about as
they're watching these shows and as they're engaging the fandoms.
Right there are people who are like, oh, well, it
was just great strategy and it was great gameplay. And
I'm going, is it great gameplay or is it that

(54:17):
they've learned how to manipulate racism, or that they've learned
how to play how to find allies exactly the aversive
racism that they that they used, because let's be honest here, right, Rob, Yes,
Rob quote unquote was playing a good game, but a
lot of his game was flipping on women, flipping on

(54:39):
black women, was pitting people against each other like he
was doing every He was utilizing his male privilege, and his.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
Game was using charm to fool everybody.

Speaker 4 (54:50):
He was using male privilege to using male like he
like like he's like he knows he's a cute, a
good looking guy.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
Yeah, right, is having his arms out everywhere like he
like he like.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
He's clean, he's clean cut quote unquote clean cut, shaven,
like he's using his white man charms.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
And the fact that people gave him the benefit of
the doubt overwhelmed. The fact that people gave him the
benefit of the dow over Porsche like I could even
That's the thing I think bugged me the most of
the season. Right, there have been other traders in the
past who have slipped up and said things that could
have made them look like a trader, and people gave
them the benefit of the doubt. Like when Porscha said it,
it was immediate, Oh she's a trader.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
She slipped second, that can twice in a row for Rob,
and then it was a trader and no one bad
an eye. I'm like, if if a trader as votes
the same person twice, they know something that I don't. Yep, Like,
no one call onto that the entire time I said.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Well there's again it could because people don't and again
that's why we're here in this country believe it. They
don't want to believe a black woman when a black
woman is giving you literally has always told you. And
is she like if she was.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
A trader, at least it was a trader. You know
that they're together and right Kenness keeps saying Rob. You
one must think how else, why why else would she
say Rob twice twice.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Twice on But anyway, so now you all know as
you watch these reality shows that this is a thing,
and I would caution I'm gonna say caution you. I
would challenge you all to think more about what you're
watching and how you're watching it and how you're engaging
the fandom. And really, I mean even the same thing

(56:32):
with drag Race, right the ways you know, I always
go back to season ten with Eureka, the ways that
you know, Eureka has been able to or was able
to get away with a lot of the things that
she said and did, and it was all on the
basis of you know, everyone looking at the other drag
queens and saying that they were overreacting to what Eureka
was doing. So anyway, all of that to be said,

(56:54):
now that we've given you one more reason to hate
watch reality TV, we're gonna take one more break and
we're gonna come back with y'all's favorite second ass. All right, y'all,
So this week we are going to jump into our
oh yes, ma'am and our nomm pam again. For those
who are new to the show or those who may

(57:14):
have forgotten, this is where we either give people their
flowers or we whack them with them. We're gonna whack
them with the flowers this week. I wanted to shout
out LGBTQ nation because what I will say is this,
I don't always read queer media because I often find
queer media to be very white centered, and it is.
Sometimes it's not for me, babes. Sometimes the stories that

(57:35):
I see is not for me, but sometimes I will
peek in. And I wanted to give again flowers where
I think flowers are too. Chaz quickly wrote an article
on the black lesbian poet as We're And again, staying
with the theme today of giving Black women of all shapes, sizes,
and diasporas their giving their flowers, they wrote an article

(57:58):
about the activist Past Parker. They wrote in the article
about what she endured and how she negotiated surviving in
a society that rarely recognized the complexities of black women's lives,
arguing that yes, sexism is an issue, but the real
struggle was racism, and so before Audrey Lord was doing it,

(58:18):
we had Pat Parker. And I definitely just wanted to
throw that out there and say that if you have
not been able to go read that article, I will
link the article in our show notes for folks to
be able to click and read and learn more about
what Pat Parker did. But I just like I said,
there have been so many people in history who have done,
and have written and have said some amazing things, and

(58:39):
it's just really cool when people take the time to
actually like highlight those things. So I definitely wanted to
use our platform to do the same. So shout out
to pet Parker, we speak your name. Chas Quigley, thank
you for writing that article because you did your big
one on it. So I definitely wanted to say that. Now,
no man, Pam this week is I'm not going to
even act like it's my words, because I know that

(59:00):
this person listens to the show, so I want to
make sure that I give them credit. So we've had
Tigris on the show in the past. Tigris is the
executive director. Is that the right title for Tigris? Yes, okay,
they are the executive director of the National Association of
Fat Acceptance or NAPA and on one of their most
recent reels, and I had been thinking about this, so

(59:22):
it was very kismic. When I saw the reel, I
was like, thank God, someone finally said it. There has
been a conversation and I'll explain why this is my
noman Pam. There's been a conversation where a lot of
people have been saying that fat people are the last
people to be discriminated against. And I want to make

(59:42):
it very clear that I stand with Tigris and saying
we are not fat people are not the only ones
being discriminated against. It's a bigger social justice issue that
impacts everyone, and it keeps you living in fear. Why
do we think golp ones are such a big deal
right now? Do you think we're seeing so many stars
starve themselves to death to get a certain look?

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
We know that fat phobia exists, but it is not
the only because the way I've been hearing in friends,
it's the only acceptable discrimination, and it's like, no, girl,
there are other things that are going on out there
that we all should be paying attention to, and fatness
is a part of that. We need to take that
just as seriously as we take racism, as we take sexism,

(01:00:26):
as we take transphobia. It's all, I guess. My point
is for folks who are saying that you need to
understand that all of this shit is intersectional and anti
fatness is not the last acceptable form of discrimination. We
are all fighting for our lives as black, fat, queer people,
you name it. We are all in whatever capacity we

(01:00:47):
are all fighting for our lives. Whether it's for space,
whether it's for rights, whether it's for representation, we are
all fighting for it. So it really like we need
to niggas need to read. I think that's the That's
what I really just want us to go back to
opening a book to get off of TikTok. Like again,

(01:01:09):
TikTok is great. I love these people who are on
TikTok giving full rundown education, educational explanations as to how
systems of oppression work. But I really want us to
engage curriculum and read and really get into understanding. When
you say stuff like fat phobia is the only last
acceptable oppression, it's like, ah, girl, where the fuck are

(01:01:32):
you living? Hello? Like, what what world are you living in?
That that makes sense? Like I just I don't know,
And while we're also here, I just want to say
this and then I'll throw it to you. Jojo, please
stop using intersectionality wrong, please, because a lot of y'all
don't know the definition, you don't understand it, you don't
comprehend it, and you're using it in everything and I'm

(01:01:52):
constantly having to tell you, baby, baby, that's not how
you use it. That's not intersectionality means that's not that's
that's not what it means. This you gotta read the definition.
You gotta learn it, you gotta live it. Please, So
just take a look book a reading Rainboo.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
Can go.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
You need take a look. It's in a book, a
reading Rainbow, Reading Rainbow. Okay, what are your yes, ma'am
and your no man PAMs?

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
This week, I'm gonna PAMs. I'll start with those first
because of a few of them.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
One is some of those. One is a swift fuck
you too? What's her name? Jesus was having.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
A conversation with another big le anti queer person and
I'm just like, you're obsession people's obsession with with with
quickness the community. Oush your mouth one, but also get
over it, Like get over your obsession with us, get
over your need to like make a comment about the community.

(01:03:10):
I'm also over I'm also over shy lah boof like
I'm over. Like I love when people are making the
frames of like like like there's just like Instagram frame
that's like that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
It's like it's like like take a picture of yourself
and then it's like I'm the big gay man. I
shall and I live off love that ship. But also
like like what like I just I just wish.

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
I understood people's like desire to make comments about queerness
whatsoever when it really has no effect on you whatsoever.
Like we're just living our lives. Baby girl, go find
go get one for yourself, please.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
But I find Can I just say this real quick,
while we're talking about Shilah Boof, I think it's funny
that he said that gay people scare him. He's oh,
if they're too close to me, it scares me. But
then the man asked him if he ever met Jesus,
what would he do, and he said that he wanted
to kiss Jesus. So is it uchi wildy or one

(01:04:14):
mic listen ha no homo though, Okay, So I'm just
I just needed to make I needed to make sense
for me. That's all. That's all I need to make.

Speaker 4 (01:04:25):
You all have questions, we all have questions. Well, my guess, man, Pam,
if this week is this week is to myself because
I this this is a personal thing. But this past
seven this past two weeks, I have navigated some pretty
intense conversations with people, But most recently, I was drunk

(01:04:46):
and I had to navigate a conversation with somebody else,
which was rough because I was like, you have me
out here doing deep thinking, like like what I'm trying,
I'm trying in in the cleb But I didn't and
I did it amazingly, Like I did amazing that this
person was being was acting the fuck up, being bligerent,
just being wild, like and I was I talked some

(01:05:09):
sense into you and like and like at the end,
the folks around us were.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Like, you know that so amazingly, and I was like,
thank you, antisically.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
Give me a fucking drink, bitch, because I had to
exert extra emotional labor and the toll of myself to
like correct this bitch was just it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:26):
Was just so egregious.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
But like I like, I'm like, I'm pround myself because
I'm proud of myself is that I like, I was
raised by people who when they got into conflict, their
action was to fight.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Their action was to throw punches, cut somebody.

Speaker 4 (01:05:42):
Out right, and like I have and I have grown
to the point where that's not my action. My action
is let's disgust this, let's understand this, let's face it together.
And so I'm proud myself that I when I and
when I when conflict comes to me, I don't run away.
I don't avoid it. I don't like write like I don't.
I don't meet it with punches or fists. I meet
it with like curiosity and expansion, say, like let's let's

(01:06:05):
uncover what's helping together and if not.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Uncovering even though we don't write, even though we don't
celebrate the Dalai lama. Yeah, it's very much given, yes,
giving like but but.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
It's just I mean, trust me I with the hands
to their hands.

Speaker 4 (01:06:27):
But like for like with favorite things, that there are
some things that don't require that and the like, and
I want to do unless I have to do it
because it's just a lot of work. Like I'll scratch
scratch scratch a bitch, but I would rather just talk
about it. And so I'm prouying myself for really give
myself the space to engage in conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
Like even and even in circumstances isn't always the best.

Speaker 4 (01:06:45):
It isn't always like people aren't always the best to
do that right, And like I know that in any moment,
like whether whether I'm tipsy or not, I know I'm
able to have a conversation, facilitate dialogue with somebody, say
let's find the root of this, or be like, no, girl,
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
You understand this.

Speaker 4 (01:07:01):
I'm gonna go how much drink over here? You still
over here? We ain't got across past no more.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Damn.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
I I think you know you know what that is.
That's growth because I also used to be that girl
that would be ready to like yoke someone up in
the club, but.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
Is itching for it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:21):
I'm like, no, let me fight somebody, but like right,
but like like no one's acting up that valley right,
just like verbal stuff, push we have we have a different,
we have a different to jail over exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Yeah, So I'm I'm really proud of you. I'm proud
of our sisters who use their words and.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
Try it again, but also try a bitch again.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Marcia did give us I have a break at my house, girl.
I've been telling people, I too will throw a brick
if I have me bring it out. I will also
throw one if I have to. So with that being said,
we would love to hear your thoughts, your feedback in
your emails. Please send them over to Blackfatfempot at gmail.
Dot com. You can also send us your thoughts for
your social media's by interacting with us and our post

(01:08:05):
on Instagram and threads by using the handle black Fetfin
Pod Queen Joe. Where can the dolls find you this?

Speaker 4 (01:08:11):
Of course, you can find me on Dan's across all
the socials in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:08:14):
If not there, my website during Dane's dot com and.

Speaker 4 (01:08:17):
If not there for once, you can find me at
my house because I will be staying in the home
for the.

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
Next let's say, let's let's just say, let's just say
that the next.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
Month, I'm trying to stay home and not do no
crazy ship. I'm not excited for it, and I can't.
Don't you even dare John don't believe.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
I don't believe it. I will believe. I'm gonna literally,
I am going to make a note on my calendar
literally April eleventh. I want. I'm gonna. I'm gonna check
your location. And our persons don't count, okay, our images
don't count. Well, true, because we do have a couple
of let's say recording.

Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
I won't travel, I won't.

Speaker 4 (01:08:54):
Travel beyond the confines of Los Angeles and.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
Okay, okay, okay, I'm gonna hold you do it. I'm
gonna hold you to it. If I see you in
another state, in another city that is not the three
one oh, the two one three or the seven one
four or the two was I already said two one three,
But yeah, I'm looking. I'm gonna be looking if I.

Speaker 4 (01:09:17):
If I, if I end up transported somewhere else, it's
it's my fault. But I I will, I will, I will.
I will get you a.

Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
Fish fry or a cry boil.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Okay, okay, I own it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:31):
But if I, if I, if I do complete it,
you give me my first Louis bag.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
Oh okay, so we're doing that, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,
all right. I can get you a wallet, but I'm
not gonna get you a bag now because I still
got bags I need to pay. I will get you
a key chain, I'll get you I'll get you on
an little yes. How about coach I can get you
a coach bag. How about we start there? Okay, okay,

(01:10:00):
the little phone wallet, well, duny and burker something? Yeah,
all right, y'all? Wells for me on socials. You can
find me at doctor John Paul Online. You can find
me at ww dot doctor John Paul dot com. You
can also learn more about my consulting, my books and
all the things that I'm doing over there, and well
where I might be, I will be moving around. I'm

(01:10:22):
actually very happy because well lies, I will be traveling
in the next couple of weeks, but some of it
is more for pleasure. And then uh May, June and July,
I'll be traveling just only like cheerly for work. But
all that to be said, do do? What else am
I saying, y'all? It's just it's been a really long week.

(01:10:42):
I am literally sitting here going like we we literally
got through this show and I didn't think I was
gonna be able to do it. So I love y'all.
Thank you for just rocking with us and for keeping
us going. Because my God. But if you want to
see me slash us on Hulu, Who Am I Meant
to Be? This is where we talk about the the show.
It's now streaming. You can find it on ABC News

(01:11:04):
or you can find it on Hulu. My book Barnes
and Nobles. If you haven't had a chance to read it,
oh it shout out. I forget I don't know who
it was, but there's a there's an organization that they're
doing like book reads, and my book was selected as
one of that's right. So yeah, so just shout out
to that organization. I'll put them their information in the
show notes as well, so thank it for that. But anyway,

(01:11:27):
all that to be said, this has been another show.
Stay black, fat, fim and fabulous and remember what joo.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
We may not be your cup of tea.

Speaker 4 (01:11:37):
Honestly, I don't give a fuck drink that ship anyways,
and don't drink is disgusting cocon water?

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
Here?

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Sasty?

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Now? Was this? Ai? Is there a true thing? Is
there is there such thing as pink coconut you know? AI? Okay,
I don't listeners, tell tell, let me know if there's
a because I'm not gonna google it. Let me know
if there's a such.

Speaker 4 (01:11:59):
Thing as a pink But if you if you drink
coconut water, girl, I think you're little nasty.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
I think a little nasty.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
You like backwash.

Speaker 4 (01:12:07):
Listen, I won't get your young, but I think are a
little nasty doing.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
Well. Yeah, but anyway, water with a little bit of
lemon and so nice.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
That's what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Girl. Yes, now that's what I want to say. Yes, yes,
All right, y'all, we'll catch you next week. Love you
for real. Bye.

Speaker 4 (01:12:32):
The Black Fatfem podcast is executive produced by Joey Patt
and Doctor John Paul.

Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
All content related to the show is edited by Chris Rogers.

Speaker 4 (01:12:40):
This has been a podcast by iHeartMedia and Doctor John
Paul LLC The Black Fat Film Podcasts where all the
intersections of a nannie are celebrated.

Speaker 3 (01:12:48):
Honey, I know that's right.