June 10, 2026 • 41 mins
Courtney Clenney gained fame and fortune as an "OnlyFans" model, and a reputation as a combative partner for Christian Obumseli. Police in Austin, Las Vegas, and Miami became familiar with the couple. Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack break down the death of Obumseli, comparing the story told by Clenney and the truth about throwing a knife 10 feet causing the death of a 6 foot, 220 pound, healthy young man.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quality Baucus with Joseph Scott More. We live in a
world nowadays where it seems that there are people with
I don't know, little or no talent make a lot
of money for doing nothing more than displaying those gifts
(00:25):
that the sweet Lord Gable. Today, we're going to go
back and visit a case that we covered all the
way back in twenty twenty two, and it has to
do with one such person, a person that wanted to
live her best life, I guess, and display those things
(00:49):
that God gave her. Maybe it's the only ass that
she had, but I do know this. I've seen video
of this individual striking the man in her life over
and over again inside of an elevator. And oh that man,
by the way, wound up being a homicide victim, and
(01:14):
he's been dead now for near about four years, and
still no appearances in court. To get this thing adjudicated.
We're going to go back in time and also in
the present a little bit because there's new information regarding
the Courtney Clinty case. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
(01:36):
is Bodybacks Brother Dave, you know you and I reflecting
on this. We do so many cases. This thing popped
up in the news. This article that I caught wind
actually popped up yesterday, I think, on Fox, and I
(01:57):
had to revisit it because I'm thinking, if well, I'll
put you this way. If you've ever been in your
vehicle and you've been stuck in mud, and you know,
you keep putting it reverse, and you know, you put
it in gear and you're hitting the you're hitting the accelerate,
you turn the wheel, but and you wind up you're
in the same damn spot you were in again with
(02:18):
you think, what else do I need to do? I
guess I'm gonna have to call tow truck. To this point, metaphorically,
they have not called a tow truck. We're still stuck
in the mud down there in South Florida with the
case that has yet to be adjudicated after all of
this time, and I think the most surprising bit to
all of this is that defense still has They're saying,
(02:41):
we've got nine more depositions to go, Dave in this case.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, first of all, the case is the Only Fans.
Courtney Taylor was her name on Only Fans. If you
don't know what that is as a site, go look
it up. I'm you know, but Courtney Clinny is the
woman's real name. And when this case first came out,
by the way, it was pitched to police as self defense,
(03:09):
self defense and a stabbing by Courtney Clinny of her boyfriend,
Christian Obumselli. And he was a cryptocurrency investor. Okay, he
was living a good life financially. He was really making
some inroads. You know, Joe, you mentioned how some people
can really make money off of just whatever physical attributes
(03:31):
God has blessed you with, or the ones you can
pay for. And that's what Courtney Clinty slash Courtney Taylor
was doing. On only fans. They were living South Florida,
upscale high rise pahads. We're talking the Green Acres when
Avagoboor is looking over you know, Central Park, not on
the farm, and Courtney is from the farm. Oh, so
(03:54):
what happened is this is a domestic violence death. Courtney
Cliney has been charged with homicide, second degree homicide. She
claims self defense. And I will tell you this, guys.
When I first heard the story, just okay, you're only
hearing just this one thing, Okay, a fight breaks out
between a couple she in fear, she grabs a knife
(04:17):
and just throws it to back him away, and the
knife inadvertently strikes him in the chest and he dies. Well, okay,
you can believe that if that's the only thing that happened.
We had a nine to one one called Joe and
police bodycam video. I am so glad, So glad departments
(04:41):
have invested in bodycam from police. It protects police officers
in many ways from being accused of wrongdoing, but it
also shows what somebody who claims they are a victim,
what they're acting like, and it locks them into a story.
Y'all know why police sit down with the party and
(05:02):
have you make a statement. They have you write it out,
and oftentimes they'll do the interview. They'll hey, Joe, tell
me what happened in your own words, and they make
notes and they write it out, and then they hand
it back to you and say, Joe, hey, take a
look at your statement and correct anything you don't see
that's right. Well, what happens is, while they're writing out
the statement that they suspect you, they go ahead and
(05:23):
add in a few things that are wrong. If you
said at eight twenty two pm, I did xyz. They
might write eight twenty six pm. Then later on there's
another stumbing, you know, they put four or five of
those in there, and yeah, that look's right, and you
sign it and then you're going, well, now we got
you lying. It's really that simple. And with Courtney Clinting,
(05:45):
once we saw all of the surveillance footage, oh my goodness,
Joseph Scott Morgan, this victim was not a victim at all.
Wait a minute, yeah, she's not an alleged victim. She's
an alleged killer right now. But she was shown to
be the aggressor and the real victim is the guy
who's dead, her living boyfriend, Christian alb Maselli.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, and apparently he also went by the name Toby.
And I got to tell you, Dave listen, I the
world that we live in now that we occupy, it's
easy for people to say anything about you when they're
(06:29):
not they don't perceive themselves to being recorded. But just
going back in time, you know, after the fact, when
I got to see the imagery from this event that
took place that I mentioned just a second ago in
the elevator, and it's kind of a birds of view
as a matter of fact, just so our friends know,
if you're facing the door in an elevator, okay, the
(06:53):
kind of the fish eye lens on this thing would
be back and to your left, over your left shoulder,
and so it's looking down on the two of them
inside of this elevator. And let me tell you something
about Christian. He's a big man. I mean, and I
(07:13):
don't mean like you know, like morbidly obese. I'm talking about.
This is a guy that takes care of himself. He
works out. I mean, he is jacked, you know. Looking
at the video, you can see her striking, oh yeah,
over and over and over, and guess what he does.
He never raises his hand to her to knock her down.
(07:35):
As a matter of fact, he is constantly And we've
all been on an elevator before. You never wow, you know,
nowadays you never know who you're going to get on
an elevator with, right, And so these two know one another.
Of course, I bet if there had been another person
on the elevator, she wouldn't have acted out how much.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
You will bet I'm with you, And I didn't even
think about his size, Joe, because you're right.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, he's yeah, It's like flick a fleet with him,
you know, I mean, he's masking constantly. He continues to
put distance between himself and her, all the while she
continues looking at the video to attack this man. I
mean she's striking him, slapping him, doing all this stuff.
And you know, I've always held to to this is
(08:19):
that if you're willing, if you're willing to do this,
even though it's not really public, but it is a
public you never know who would walk in through that door.
If you're willing to do, what are you going to
do in your house? You know, what are you going
to do to somebody? And according to the police, it
went next level? Man, Well you know it went next level.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I think Joe as I as I mentioned, Courtney Clintey
is the one that called nine one one, And when
you listen to it, she is, you know, concerned, she's upset,
she's you know, she's of course claiming that she's the
victim and that she only did things in self defense.
But it's the investigation started from that. And and to
be honest with you, you mentioned that that Toby was
(09:03):
a guy who was muscular, a large guy, strong. They're
gonna and you've got this damsel in distress. You know,
police are gonna listen to what they're hearing, but they're
not gonna just believe it all. And in this particular case,
as the as the investigation went on, it didn't take
(09:25):
long before law enforcements started hearing from friends who said,
you know, they were in a volatile relationship, but Courtney
is the one who was the aggressor most of the time, certainly,
not always. And I'm not gonna I'm just leaving it
at that. You guys can look into this yourself. But
(09:46):
the bottom line is the story that Courtney Clinty was
trying to sell was not backed up by facts or
by friends or by family in and around their place
in Florida. Now, you know, there was even a point
in time where her parents got involved, and it was
one of these little sad tangents that takes place after
(10:08):
Toby was killed and the police were investigating it as
a justifiable homicide. Is that was called in defense or
you kill somebody in defense or whatever.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
But yeah, it can be just fible, I mean, it
can be just fouble.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yet, but Courtney had left down as you left South
Florida and went to her parents home in Texas and
while she was there. I remember covering this on Nancy
Grace's show because it was like, is it a model
or is it bigfoot? Because we have a story of
Courtney clinting in her parents' neighborhood. Okay, she leaves Florida,
(10:45):
goes to Texas and she's staying at her folks house
and she's walking down the street. She's had a few
adult beverages and she talks to this teenage guy saying
she's in fear, Hey, just would you walk me home?
Walk me to my house? And then she's like hitting
on him, sexually aggressive towards this teenage boy and she's
like just kiss me or whatever, and he's like no,
(11:07):
I no, no, thank you. And so then when he
won't do what she wants, she threatens to burn his
house down and the police get called for that one.
So that's what happened in the weeks following the death
of Toby, and then Courtney took off Florida. Investigation is underway.
(11:30):
What do you do going to rehab? You know the
Alec Murdof solution, and that's where she was arrested. Once
the investigation round everything up and they're like, Okay, we
got video, we got audio, we got all of these
interviews from everybody who knows them, and Courtney's the aggressor.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Okay. I think at one point, Tom, she wound up
in Hawaii.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, that's where they arrested her. She was in rehab
in Hawaii.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yeah, And so listen, the proof, as they say, is
in fact in the pudding and Dave, you had mentioned
the cams that the cops had, and there's one image
that's quite striking to me, and I think it was
a local it was local news down in Miami that
you know, you talked about, you know, this fancy, fancy
(12:17):
penthouse and this THINGE is gorgeously I mean, it's it's
it's beautiful. I don't know what the monthly the monthly
hit on this thing is, but it's it's more than
you and I got, all right, And so.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I know I want to become an only fans model.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
What do I have to do? No, let's don't go
down the road, please please, I beg you Part five
or yet we you know, there is this image, the
still image of her that you can see through one
of those those windows, and she is seated in that
image against I think, on the floor against the wall,
(12:54):
and she's got blood on her. But I got to
tell you, when you see the videography from the interior
of this penthouse, it's bathed in blood. So Dave, the
(13:21):
the article are articles that I was referencing, came from
our friends at Fox and also secondly from Core TV
H and when and you know, we we do a
lot of these cases, so a lot of the imagery
kind of disappears, right, you know, for me at least, uh,
(13:42):
there's no way. Uh, my brain is just not big enough.
I can't contain everything, and so you need sometimes And
that's cool. That's that's like crime scene stuff too, right,
it's not too much different because one of the one
of the reasons that we take notes, we write reports,
we take photos that scenes is so that, yeah, we
(14:03):
can contextualize what has happened and what is no longer there.
But it's also to refresh our memory. And one of
the things that really stands out that came out in
the Fox report was that they actually had this this
knife that was used in this attack. They actually had
the image of the knife on the floor. And I
(14:23):
was quite struck by that because suddenly I remembered how
bloody an affair this was. And if you guys want
to know this knife itself, it's a it's a longer knife.
It's not a steak knife, but it has a serrated
edge on it. I guess you know to say, it's
(14:45):
not a steak knife. It's one thing, but you could
use it, I guess to cut a steak with. Because
it is serrated and the blade is tapered. It comes
to a very sharp point. But the whole thing is metallic.
It's got a pitted metallic hand handle on it too.
The whole thing is silver.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Would you explain something for those who don't know, what
do you mean when you say serrated?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, so serrated. The way I like to describe a
serrated knife is if you think, if you think about
the edge of a saw blade, and if you look,
if you look at the side of a saw blade
really carefully, it looks like a mountain range that's kind
of gotten peaks and valleys to it. Okay, with a
(15:30):
with an actual serrated edge, it kind of works like
a saw blade does. However, those little peaks and valleys
they're connected by this kind of scalloping that goes on.
So you've got this kind of curved, curved edge that's
in between each peak, and so when it works really
(15:52):
well when you're trimming meat, Okay, you sat down and
you have a steak by the way, big shout out.
Maybe they'll give us a sponsorship. Took my wife to
Peter Luger's, which is a dream I've always had in Brooklyn.
I've never been able to go. There's a six month
waiting list to go. They had one. They had one
where we were staying in Las Vegas and Las Vegas
(16:17):
at crime Con. We got in and got a table
in twenty minutes and it was incredible.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And I used the serrated knives there.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Okay, let me ask you this because I know you're into.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Weapons.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, the serrated edge on a knife. Was that originally
used as a weapon of war?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
That is an excellent question. Sometimes research, I would imagine
that it has some kind of utility. It's like, okay,
I'll give you, for instance, every hunting weapon, every major
long arm that we have in the US are that
people might be familiar with. Most notably, we've heard about
this in the Charlie Kirk case. Is a thirty out six, right, Well,
(16:58):
thirty out six is the same round that was used
famously in World War One, okay, and so a lot
of weapons of war, a lot of we are instruments
that we have nowadays, they've got their utility, you know,
going back to military utility, and so it trying of
transfers into the civilian world. You know, the thirty out
(17:21):
six is an excellent hunting hunting round, Okay. I would
imagine that there are so many different types of ancient
weapons out there. There's no way you can convince me
there's not one that has a serrated edge. No, and
it it really the thing about it is, it's something
that does not require and here's the utility. It's something
(17:42):
that does not require you to sharpen it really, okay,
because with yeah, with a whether it's a dulcerated edge
or sharp serrated edge, it still has utility. Whereas if
a straight edge, you have to uh, you have to
stone it as they call or like with a straight razor,
(18:03):
it has to be stropped, you know, on a leather straw.
And many times when you stone and you strop things,
you're not necessarily people think they're putting an edge on something.
Actually they're taking the bend out of the blade because
the blade gets kind of a wavy, wavy nature to it,
so you actually put it kind of back into line
where it was originally milled. So with a serrated edge,
(18:27):
this is the other thing about a serrated edge as
far as the weapon goes. Because of the nature of
that scalloped edge, it can do. It can do more
destruction when it enters into tissue as opposed to a neat,
(18:47):
finely defined edge on say like a butcher knife. All right,
because you're disrupting the tissue more. You've got this wave
that's going down the long axis of this thing, these
little peaks. So with every bit of destruction that you're doing, Uh,
if you look at it from a surgical perspective where
(19:07):
the stuff has to be repaired by some doctor, that
get so they're going to have to pay closer attention
because there's little vessels that are contained at a microscopic
level where you're trying to stop the bleeding. That's going
to make it all the more difficult because you're tearing
up more tissue. Right, maybe a bad analogy. It's it's
kind of like a holowpoint round, you know, holowpoint round
(19:30):
kind of deploys. It has like a claw on it,
you know, when it strikes and it's ripping those little
vessels and destroying, cavitating that tissue as supposed to say,
ball ammunition that's going through kind of is more smooth
at any rate.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
And I didn't mean to get you off on that.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Just no, no, no, talk about it all day, because.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
If I don't ask, I'm not going to know.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Man.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I've heard you know, I've heard people talk at the
serrated edge of this, and all I'm thinking of whatever
knife is in the drawer that I use to cut meat,
that's the knife. I don't know what it is. It's
unless it's a genzy because I know I can cut
open my ten can, my cinder block and my ham.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, what was the old adage in Japan? The hand
could be used like a knife, you know. And I
don't know. I've got a couple of Japanese friends. I've
never asked them if they own again to knife. Probably not.
I think it's strictly an American thing that yeah, and yeah,
yeah pocket fishermen, but yeah, you know, you think about
the utility of this, and it can be weaponized and
(20:27):
this goes back to something else we've talked about on
body backs, and that is weapons of opportunity. Right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Oh yeah, it's not.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Like she went out and I don't know a lot
of k bar right, okay, or a rambow hunting knife. Right,
it's a it's a it's a weapon of convenience that
is within arm's reach. And a lot of a lot
of domestic violence events that you see will have will
(20:59):
have this kind of theme to it. You know that
it literally was a candlestick, or it literally to bludgeon somebody,
or it was a hammer, or you know, it was
a kitchen knife. I famously I remember and I still
use this case and instruction as a forensics professor I
(21:20):
had and again, this was a case of domestic violence
that I used, that I used that I worked years
and years ago, and I used the images to teach
my kids. I had a lady that her husband had
been He would come home drunk every day and he
would beat her with a belt, and she had kids
and he would do this in front of the kids.
(21:40):
One evening, he beat her with a belt using the
buckle end, and he passed out on the sofa face down.
She went to the to the silver rituar pulled out
a steak knife that is not the best quality, climbed
on his back. He's laying in a prone position, and
(22:01):
she buried that thing in his back nine times before
it broke off. And I've got this image of this
knife that's probably broken halfway up the blade, and it's
it's protruding, you know, through here, and you can see.
And the thing about it is when you examine these
injuries from a from a scalloped or a serrated edge,
(22:24):
you can when it's removed and you look at it
very very carefully in a clinical sense, you can actually
see you can actually see this pattern developed. That's one
of the that's one of the ways, say, for instance,
if you come up to a scene and you have
it looks as though you have multiple stablings, but you
don't have a weapon, right, Okay, first off, you get
(22:47):
the dimensions of it. What's at its greatest width, what's
the greatest width of it? Okay, Well, if you've got
a steak knife, you know which everybody thinks of a
classic steak knife that you can buy at any store,
maybe three quarters of an inch in with that its
greatest point as opposed to something that might be two inches,
might have a smooth edge. But in this case, this
(23:09):
thing's really wide that cleanie allegedly used and it's serrated.
But you know what she's saying. What she's saying here
relative to how this thing was used, Dave is the
big rub but in this whole thing, because it just
it doesn't make sense. It didn't make sense to me.
(23:29):
I was not gonna bite on it.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I remember asking about it. I remember when I saw it,
because she claimed that he was the aggressor, that she
was defending herself, and that she threw the knife from
ten feet away.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
At a range of ten feet.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Now, how far would you have to throw a conventional
steak knife, Joe to get it to penetrate anything from emptyed?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Well, okay, first off, it's not the velocity at which
you throw it. It's the manner in which it's thrown.
And also in our all of our friends don't believe
thing I say. Researchers yourself. Okay, not on a front note,
Go read about it or watch a video on YouTube.
There are throwing knives, and many of you guys know that,
(24:12):
because I know that some of you guys out there
are interested in this sort of thing. There are throwing knives. Well,
those knives that you see that are actually thrown, they
are balanced, they have specific specs. Okay, because if you're
going to throw a knife, you have to be able
to have the touch, to know how the thing is
going to rotate, and to try to get it onto
(24:34):
target and target and even professional knife throwers if they're
targeting an area, say if they're throwing the thing in
the heat of battle, which, by the way, I have
never ever worked a homicide related to a thrown knife.
(24:56):
Just because Joe Scott Morgan hasn't worked one doesn't mean
that they don't exist. I'm sure that they do. Millions
of people have died violently. It has to have happened
at least just out of sheer dumb luck. Somebody would
have thrown something. Now, I've had other things thrown at
people and they killed them, but never like certainly not
a kitchen knife, right, And that's what kind of stuck
(25:17):
in my mind. Dave, you were talking about how much
force would it take, our velocity would you have to have? Well,
the thing about it is, Dave, I've had I've had
projectile shot at people that didn't go the same depth
that this thing went. This thing went three inches and
(25:37):
not only did it go three inches in to Christian's body,
it also penetrated an area immediately adjoined adjoining one of
the most robust bony areas in our body. Right here,
you're clavical, your collar bonus right here. If everybody will
(25:58):
just Palpatriot, it's around, you can find it right here.
I've had mind broken. I broke mind when I was
a child. Many people break their collar bones. This thing
actually went beneath the collarbone and went into the subclave artery,
which is an absolute lethal shot. He would have In
order for him to have survived this, there would have
(26:24):
had to have been a group of cardiothoracic surgeons standing
by there with kit to open him up, tie this
thing off. Because this used to be used to be
not so much anymore, but this used to be like
if you were going to in nursing in the medical sense,
they would put in what was called a central line,
(26:45):
like if you had to have medication running through you.
They do it other places now, but the subclave because
you could delivery you could deliver drugs really quickly right
here by pushing it. You know, you put a lock
in here, you know, an injectable lie where you could
push drugs in and the uptake would be really quick.
This thing is all married up with these structures in
(27:09):
the neck that supply the brain of course, is going
up and back, and this sort of thing as an artery.
So this is the type one of the reasons you
saw so much blood deposition at the scene. It's an
arterial strike. So when this thing impacts in there, you're
striking a rather robust artery and she knicks this thing. Okay,
(27:30):
I swear, David, I have a memory of being able
to there was a nine to one call. I swear
I could have heard. I think I heard him in
the background or something, and you can he's like he's
he's got the dwindles really, which makes sense because as
you're losing a volume of blood, it's this kind of
sleepiness that begins to take over until you know you're
(27:52):
at the point where and you'll have people that do this,
they go through this, they'll get nauseated, sometimes they'll vomit,
and they're running out of oxygenated blood because it's pouring
out everywhere. And this would have been a bloody scene.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
But not something that could have been accomplished as described
by Courtney Clinny.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
No not, I don't. I just I can't feature that
in any world. I don't know. Maybe the defense has
another explanation. I got to tell you when this thing
finally does go to trial, whenever that is, because now
we're four years on right, and oh yeah, so we're
(28:34):
beyond now. Yeah, so you know when we get to
that point. And I'm not saying this tongue in cheek,
I truly want to know, because I could have sworn
that they they had consulted somebody out there or somebody
(28:54):
has at this point in time that throws knives. Now,
are they going to parade this person up on the
stand to talk about the utility of throwing knives and
their level of lethality, Because you know, we can sit
here all day long and talk about throwing knives that
are meant to be thrown. But what about an inexperienced,
(29:18):
thirty year old only fans model from a range of
ten feet throwing this knife at a very robust boyfriend
that's so well muscled and built like an Adonis. What
are the odds that she's going to strike PEYTRT. So
(29:47):
you know, I know I've said it, and you've said
it several times as we're having this chin wag as
they say, Dave over this, but you know, this thing
has not come to fruition yet. And one of the
reasons I had mentioned this, and what really caught my
eye was it they said that they, being the defense
(30:13):
in this case, still have nine more depositions to go,
and I'm thinking, good lord, how well, how many people
do you need to have a conversation with.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
All of this If they're going to get Courtney Clinny, Well,
if you know her from only fans, Courtney Taylor, her
real name, Courtney Clinny. The reason they are having to
do so many interviews, Joe, and the reason they're having
to string this out is because the defense is trying
to claim this happened in self defense. But after the
(30:45):
investigation into the relationship, law enforcement determined that they that
the couple was involved in a toxic and violent relationship
between the two of them. Fighting was a regular part
of their life together. And it really comes down to
this incident because you can't claim you did it in
(31:07):
self defense when the physical evidence doesn't match up and
so the interviews are to back up the story she's
trying to sell. Yeah, because still she is allegedly a killer.
At this point, hey man, we've seen bigger fish, you know,
get away with things, and I'm not saying that she will.
(31:30):
I'm just saying based on what we know, based on
the video that you have referenced a couple of times,
the elevator video, the police camera video. By the way,
there are still stories about where they lived in Texas.
Courtney and Toby. They lived in Austin, Texas before moving
to Miami, and while they were there, police were regularly
(31:53):
called to their apartment complex for violent interaction between the two.
So what the defense is trying to do is to
get enough evidence on their side so that they can
now claim Toby, who is not here to defend himself
because he's dead at his girlfriend's hands. They need to
overwhelm the jury with all of these people who say
(32:14):
Courtney was the victim. That's why it's going to take
so long. But four years in, Joe, I know that
justice delayed is not necessarily justice denied, but can you
imagine what it must be like for Toby's family to
witness this now? The family is claiming that Courtney is
treated differently because she's a pretty white girl and that
(32:36):
her boyfriend was a big black guy. And they've actually
come out and said that, well, four years in, Joe,
I don't know why it's taken so long to get
to court to get a trial yet. I don't know,
but at some point somebody's going to have to explain
those kniphoons. And if they call you, holy moly man,
(32:56):
Joe explained this to me what it would take were
that knife to do what it did from where she
claims she was, And I'm telling you, Harry Houdini would
come back during a seance before that would happen again.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Okay, well, I think the biggest tell here is, I mean,
you know, we've already kind of addressed what the level
of meathality the thing is all right where it has
nick this vessel. But Dave, here's the here's the real
problem that they run into. She is significantly smaller than
(33:37):
the victim. Okay, when you height comparison alone, there's several
there are several images okay of them out there as
a couple. I beg you please, friends, go look at them.
This insult that this fellow sustained right aspect to the
(34:00):
collar bone, Dave. This thing has got a downward track, Okay,
So not only yeah, ok yeah, yeah, like swinging from
above to below. We're not talking about a slice where
you're dragging a blade like this. We're talking about emotion
that would have to be like this downward trajectory and
(34:24):
you're burying it three inches inch And when you bury
this thing in him, okay, and you withdraw it, you're
going to have you're going to have a copious amount
of blood that'll be pouring out. I think my my
big question is what at what point in time was
(34:47):
this knife withdrawn? Because you know, there's there's an old
thought to this that if someone is stabbed right and
the weapon is still indwelling, and this this also applies,
leave it or not too impalements as well. If you
can leave the object in place, okay, there's a higher
(35:08):
likelihood you got a better chance at surviving because you've
got to blockage. So if you withdraw this thing makes sense. Right,
So if you withdraw this thing, you know you've got
blood that's now pulsing out. And we do this in
the morgue, but for a different reason like if I
have if I have a case where someone has been
(35:30):
stabbed and a knife has been left in I've had
people impaled on rebar fence post all these trees you
get up into those areas, and I've actually had firefighters
come out and you know, like with a piece of rebar,
I've had them cut it so that it's manageable and
can put the body into the body bag, and I
don't take it out. We x ray it with the
(35:52):
place in place. I remember a kid that car ran
through a bunch of debris that had been a yard
trimmings and that sort of thing, and he had a
holly you know holly trees. They had a holly tree
that had a trunk on this thing that was four
feet in diameters how old it was. And they'd cut
(36:14):
this thing down. They left the branches on the branch
came in through the came in through one of the
side panels of the van. He was right in the
back and went through diagonaling and we left that in. So,
you know, you want to leave these things in place.
If you're dealing with a living you want to live
them in place. If you're dealing with the dead, either
(36:35):
way okay, and that way you can kind of tell
it tell the story from that perspective. However, if it
has been removed it's laying on the floor. One thing
you're also going to be able to tell at the scene.
And I don't know if these people they're deposing, if
they've got a Crumson reconstructionist that's going to be involved
in this, because these blood patterns are going to tell
(36:57):
the tale. I talked about the r TiAl nature and deposition.
Most people have heard of this construct within blood spatter
interpretation that talks about arterial spray hissman like it's pumping out.
You can see these movements, passive droppings like you see
with the Nancy Guthrie case where it's just kind of
free falling aspirt stuff like you see in Nancy Guthrie. Well,
(37:21):
it's expert that you see in her case. You also
saw it in Travis Alexander. I could go on and
on and on. Are they going to have a person
like that that they're deposing that's going to sit on
the stand. I also believe that in this case, Dave,
because you got a knife involved, you're not gonna need
a firearms expert. You're gonna need a tool mark expert,
(37:42):
so you think about some of the people that might
be on this list. Tool mark expert that's independent of
somebody obviously from the crime lab. They're gonna be working
for the defense. They're going to talk about the nature
of the instrument itself, what the level of lethality it
could have. But before you do that, you have to
describe what's the purpose of this knife. You know, what's
(38:02):
it used for? Okay, But that's a dangerous trap to
walk into because this knife, I can tell you, even
though it might feel really good in your hand when
you're using it to cut up your pork chops or
you know, your your steak or whatever is you're cutting,
that don't mean it has any utility as a throwing weapon. Okay,
it just it doesn't. It's not intended to be made
(38:28):
for that purpose. So that's a very dangerous area for
the defense to get into if they're talking about forensic
viability and utility. Here, I'm trying to think of anybody
else that they could be waiting to depose unless they're
going to be deposing other states witnesses to bring them
in and have them, you know, be spoken to you know,
(38:52):
about their conclusions in any of the testing that was done. Well,
you know, Joe.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
So they've got domestic violence charges with Courtney Clinny in
You've got it in Florida, You've got it in Texas,
and they were in Las Vegas one time and she
got arrested on a domestic violence charged there. So the
defense is going to be pulling a lot of things
together to say that she was defending herself. You know,
that she was a victim all along, and that's they're
(39:18):
gonna have a lot to defend. You know, she's she's
already told the story that they're stuck with. She doesn't
get to change it now. You know, she claims she
killed him by throwing a knife from ten feet away.
That's her story and they have to stick to it.
So everybody they're talking to now is trying to find
a way that'll justify it. And all I'm thinking, you know,
(39:39):
the time actually other than a Bruce Lee movie, Kevin
Costner in The Bodyguard, Remember when he's uh, he's throwing
knives and it's a great scene because he misses.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
The first times.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
It's like going everywhere, and then he throws you know,
and nails it and it's like those were throwing knives
and you could look at those, they were balanced, you could.
All I could think of is how do you get
away from that? But this is a statement I've got
in my drard Joe, and.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Well, you have to keep in mind Kevin Costler's a
trained assassin. I don't know if you're aware of it.
So but yeah, yeah, and so no, really, though your
point is well taken, Dave, you know what, how are
you going to explain this way? I tell you another
interesting part? And you mentioned this about this this kid
out of Texas that she's speaking to going down the street, right,
(40:29):
and you know this is more of a behavioral thing,
but you know, behavior is all part of this, certainly
terminal behavior, you know, when you're looking at what happened
to Christian. I'll be very interested to see if they
drag this individual, what if they bring that Dallas or
the Dallas area officer that handled that case, they bring
(40:50):
them down to Miami. And I've seen that happen before.
Where if somebody's got this historyonics of being unstable and
these sorts of things you know, I've seen and bring
other people in It's an interesting pairing. I have to say,
I have to say from the perspective of where this
thing could go, because to this point, I guess the
(41:13):
reason my interest is piqued about the destination is that
to this point we haven't gone anywhere yet. We're still waiting,
and Christian's family is still waiting. There are many people
that won't answers, and I hope, I hope that the
delay won't be too much longer, because it seems as
(41:34):
though four years is quite enough time. We're going to
keep you posted about this case because it's just so
bloody bizarre, and we'll see which way the wind blows with.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags
Quality Baucus with Joseph Scott More. We live in a
world nowadays where it seems that there are people with
I don't know, little or no talent make a lot
of money for doing nothing more than displaying those gifts
(00:25):
that the sweet Lord Gable. Today, we're going to go
back and visit a case that we covered all the
way back in twenty twenty two, and it has to
do with one such person, a person that wanted to
live her best life, I guess, and display those things
(00:49):
that God gave her. Maybe it's the only ass that
she had, but I do know this. I've seen video
of this individual striking the man in her life over
and over again inside of an elevator. And oh that man,
by the way, wound up being a homicide victim, and
(01:14):
he's been dead now for near about four years, and
still no appearances in court. To get this thing adjudicated.
We're going to go back in time and also in
the present a little bit because there's new information regarding
the Courtney Clinty case. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
(01:36):
is Bodybacks Brother Dave, you know you and I reflecting
on this. We do so many cases. This thing popped
up in the news. This article that I caught wind
actually popped up yesterday, I think, on Fox, and I
(01:57):
had to revisit it because I'm thinking, if well, I'll
put you this way. If you've ever been in your
vehicle and you've been stuck in mud, and you know,
you keep putting it reverse, and you know, you put
it in gear and you're hitting the you're hitting the accelerate,
you turn the wheel, but and you wind up you're
in the same damn spot you were in again with
(02:18):
you think, what else do I need to do? I
guess I'm gonna have to call tow truck. To this point, metaphorically,
they have not called a tow truck. We're still stuck
in the mud down there in South Florida with the
case that has yet to be adjudicated after all of
this time, and I think the most surprising bit to
all of this is that defense still has They're saying,
(02:41):
we've got nine more depositions to go, Dave in this case.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, first of all, the case is the Only Fans.
Courtney Taylor was her name on Only Fans. If you
don't know what that is as a site, go look
it up. I'm you know, but Courtney Clinny is the
woman's real name. And when this case first came out,
by the way, it was pitched to police as self defense,
(03:09):
self defense and a stabbing by Courtney Clinny of her boyfriend,
Christian Obumselli. And he was a cryptocurrency investor. Okay, he
was living a good life financially. He was really making
some inroads. You know, Joe, you mentioned how some people
can really make money off of just whatever physical attributes
(03:31):
God has blessed you with, or the ones you can
pay for. And that's what Courtney Clinty slash Courtney Taylor
was doing. On only fans. They were living South Florida,
upscale high rise pahads. We're talking the Green Acres when
Avagoboor is looking over you know, Central Park, not on
the farm, and Courtney is from the farm. Oh, so
(03:54):
what happened is this is a domestic violence death. Courtney
Cliney has been charged with homicide, second degree homicide. She
claims self defense. And I will tell you this, guys.
When I first heard the story, just okay, you're only
hearing just this one thing, Okay, a fight breaks out
between a couple she in fear, she grabs a knife
(04:17):
and just throws it to back him away, and the
knife inadvertently strikes him in the chest and he dies. Well, okay,
you can believe that if that's the only thing that happened.
We had a nine to one one called Joe and
police bodycam video. I am so glad, So glad departments
(04:41):
have invested in bodycam from police. It protects police officers
in many ways from being accused of wrongdoing, but it
also shows what somebody who claims they are a victim,
what they're acting like, and it locks them into a story.
Y'all know why police sit down with the party and
(05:02):
have you make a statement. They have you write it out,
and oftentimes they'll do the interview. They'll hey, Joe, tell
me what happened in your own words, and they make
notes and they write it out, and then they hand
it back to you and say, Joe, hey, take a
look at your statement and correct anything you don't see
that's right. Well, what happens is, while they're writing out
the statement that they suspect you, they go ahead and
(05:23):
add in a few things that are wrong. If you
said at eight twenty two pm, I did xyz. They
might write eight twenty six pm. Then later on there's
another stumbing, you know, they put four or five of
those in there, and yeah, that look's right, and you
sign it and then you're going, well, now we got
you lying. It's really that simple. And with Courtney Clinting,
(05:45):
once we saw all of the surveillance footage, oh my goodness,
Joseph Scott Morgan, this victim was not a victim at all.
Wait a minute, yeah, she's not an alleged victim. She's
an alleged killer right now. But she was shown to
be the aggressor and the real victim is the guy
who's dead, her living boyfriend, Christian alb Maselli.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, and apparently he also went by the name Toby.
And I got to tell you, Dave listen, I the
world that we live in now that we occupy, it's
easy for people to say anything about you when they're
(06:29):
not they don't perceive themselves to being recorded. But just
going back in time, you know, after the fact, when
I got to see the imagery from this event that
took place that I mentioned just a second ago in
the elevator, and it's kind of a birds of view
as a matter of fact, just so our friends know,
if you're facing the door in an elevator, okay, the
(06:53):
kind of the fish eye lens on this thing would
be back and to your left, over your left shoulder,
and so it's looking down on the two of them
inside of this elevator. And let me tell you something
about Christian. He's a big man. I mean, and I
(07:13):
don't mean like you know, like morbidly obese. I'm talking about.
This is a guy that takes care of himself. He
works out. I mean, he is jacked, you know. Looking
at the video, you can see her striking, oh yeah,
over and over and over, and guess what he does.
He never raises his hand to her to knock her down.
(07:35):
As a matter of fact, he is constantly And we've
all been on an elevator before. You never wow, you know,
nowadays you never know who you're going to get on
an elevator with, right, And so these two know one another.
Of course, I bet if there had been another person
on the elevator, she wouldn't have acted out how much.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
You will bet I'm with you, And I didn't even
think about his size, Joe, because you're right.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, he's yeah, It's like flick a fleet with him,
you know, I mean, he's masking constantly. He continues to
put distance between himself and her, all the while she
continues looking at the video to attack this man. I
mean she's striking him, slapping him, doing all this stuff.
And you know, I've always held to to this is
(08:19):
that if you're willing, if you're willing to do this,
even though it's not really public, but it is a
public you never know who would walk in through that door.
If you're willing to do, what are you going to
do in your house? You know, what are you going
to do to somebody? And according to the police, it
went next level? Man, Well you know it went next level.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I think Joe as I as I mentioned, Courtney Clintey
is the one that called nine one one, And when
you listen to it, she is, you know, concerned, she's upset,
she's you know, she's of course claiming that she's the
victim and that she only did things in self defense.
But it's the investigation started from that. And and to
be honest with you, you mentioned that that Toby was
(09:03):
a guy who was muscular, a large guy, strong. They're
gonna and you've got this damsel in distress. You know,
police are gonna listen to what they're hearing, but they're
not gonna just believe it all. And in this particular case,
as the as the investigation went on, it didn't take
(09:25):
long before law enforcements started hearing from friends who said,
you know, they were in a volatile relationship, but Courtney
is the one who was the aggressor most of the time, certainly,
not always. And I'm not gonna I'm just leaving it
at that. You guys can look into this yourself. But
(09:46):
the bottom line is the story that Courtney Clinty was
trying to sell was not backed up by facts or
by friends or by family in and around their place
in Florida. Now, you know, there was even a point
in time where her parents got involved, and it was
one of these little sad tangents that takes place after
(10:08):
Toby was killed and the police were investigating it as
a justifiable homicide. Is that was called in defense or
you kill somebody in defense or whatever.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
But yeah, it can be just fible, I mean, it
can be just fouble.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yet, but Courtney had left down as you left South
Florida and went to her parents home in Texas and
while she was there. I remember covering this on Nancy
Grace's show because it was like, is it a model
or is it bigfoot? Because we have a story of
Courtney clinting in her parents' neighborhood. Okay, she leaves Florida,
(10:45):
goes to Texas and she's staying at her folks house
and she's walking down the street. She's had a few
adult beverages and she talks to this teenage guy saying
she's in fear, Hey, just would you walk me home?
Walk me to my house? And then she's like hitting
on him, sexually aggressive towards this teenage boy and she's
like just kiss me or whatever, and he's like no,
(11:07):
I no, no, thank you. And so then when he
won't do what she wants, she threatens to burn his
house down and the police get called for that one.
So that's what happened in the weeks following the death
of Toby, and then Courtney took off Florida. Investigation is underway.
(11:30):
What do you do going to rehab? You know the
Alec Murdof solution, and that's where she was arrested. Once
the investigation round everything up and they're like, Okay, we
got video, we got audio, we got all of these
interviews from everybody who knows them, and Courtney's the aggressor.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Okay. I think at one point, Tom, she wound up
in Hawaii.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, that's where they arrested her. She was in rehab
in Hawaii.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yeah, And so listen, the proof, as they say, is
in fact in the pudding and Dave, you had mentioned
the cams that the cops had, and there's one image
that's quite striking to me, and I think it was
a local it was local news down in Miami that
you know, you talked about, you know, this fancy, fancy
(12:17):
penthouse and this THINGE is gorgeously I mean, it's it's
it's beautiful. I don't know what the monthly the monthly
hit on this thing is, but it's it's more than
you and I got, all right, And so.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I know I want to become an only fans model.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
What do I have to do? No, let's don't go
down the road, please please, I beg you Part five
or yet we you know, there is this image, the
still image of her that you can see through one
of those those windows, and she is seated in that
image against I think, on the floor against the wall,
(12:54):
and she's got blood on her. But I got to
tell you, when you see the videography from the interior
of this penthouse, it's bathed in blood. So Dave, the
(13:21):
the article are articles that I was referencing, came from
our friends at Fox and also secondly from Core TV
H and when and you know, we we do a
lot of these cases, so a lot of the imagery
kind of disappears, right, you know, for me at least, uh,
(13:42):
there's no way. Uh, my brain is just not big enough.
I can't contain everything, and so you need sometimes And
that's cool. That's that's like crime scene stuff too, right,
it's not too much different because one of the one
of the reasons that we take notes, we write reports,
we take photos that scenes is so that, yeah, we
(14:03):
can contextualize what has happened and what is no longer there.
But it's also to refresh our memory. And one of
the things that really stands out that came out in
the Fox report was that they actually had this this
knife that was used in this attack. They actually had
the image of the knife on the floor. And I
(14:23):
was quite struck by that because suddenly I remembered how
bloody an affair this was. And if you guys want
to know this knife itself, it's a it's a longer knife.
It's not a steak knife, but it has a serrated
edge on it. I guess you know to say, it's
(14:45):
not a steak knife. It's one thing, but you could
use it, I guess to cut a steak with. Because
it is serrated and the blade is tapered. It comes
to a very sharp point. But the whole thing is metallic.
It's got a pitted metallic hand handle on it too.
The whole thing is silver.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Would you explain something for those who don't know, what
do you mean when you say serrated?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, so serrated. The way I like to describe a
serrated knife is if you think, if you think about
the edge of a saw blade, and if you look,
if you look at the side of a saw blade
really carefully, it looks like a mountain range that's kind
of gotten peaks and valleys to it. Okay, with a
(15:30):
with an actual serrated edge, it kind of works like
a saw blade does. However, those little peaks and valleys
they're connected by this kind of scalloping that goes on.
So you've got this kind of curved, curved edge that's
in between each peak, and so when it works really
(15:52):
well when you're trimming meat, Okay, you sat down and
you have a steak by the way, big shout out.
Maybe they'll give us a sponsorship. Took my wife to
Peter Luger's, which is a dream I've always had in Brooklyn.
I've never been able to go. There's a six month
waiting list to go. They had one. They had one
where we were staying in Las Vegas and Las Vegas
(16:17):
at crime Con. We got in and got a table
in twenty minutes and it was incredible.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And I used the serrated knives there.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Okay, let me ask you this because I know you're into.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Weapons.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, the serrated edge on a knife. Was that originally
used as a weapon of war?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
That is an excellent question. Sometimes research, I would imagine
that it has some kind of utility. It's like, okay,
I'll give you, for instance, every hunting weapon, every major
long arm that we have in the US are that
people might be familiar with. Most notably, we've heard about
this in the Charlie Kirk case. Is a thirty out six, right, Well,
(16:58):
thirty out six is the same round that was used
famously in World War One, okay, and so a lot
of weapons of war, a lot of we are instruments
that we have nowadays, they've got their utility, you know,
going back to military utility, and so it trying of
transfers into the civilian world. You know, the thirty out
(17:21):
six is an excellent hunting hunting round, Okay. I would
imagine that there are so many different types of ancient
weapons out there. There's no way you can convince me
there's not one that has a serrated edge. No, and
it it really the thing about it is, it's something
that does not require and here's the utility. It's something
(17:42):
that does not require you to sharpen it really, okay,
because with yeah, with a whether it's a dulcerated edge
or sharp serrated edge, it still has utility. Whereas if
a straight edge, you have to uh, you have to
stone it as they call or like with a straight razor,
(18:03):
it has to be stropped, you know, on a leather straw.
And many times when you stone and you strop things,
you're not necessarily people think they're putting an edge on something.
Actually they're taking the bend out of the blade because
the blade gets kind of a wavy, wavy nature to it,
so you actually put it kind of back into line
where it was originally milled. So with a serrated edge,
(18:27):
this is the other thing about a serrated edge as
far as the weapon goes. Because of the nature of
that scalloped edge, it can do. It can do more
destruction when it enters into tissue as opposed to a neat,
(18:47):
finely defined edge on say like a butcher knife. All right,
because you're disrupting the tissue more. You've got this wave
that's going down the long axis of this thing, these
little peaks. So with every bit of destruction that you're doing, Uh,
if you look at it from a surgical perspective where
(19:07):
the stuff has to be repaired by some doctor, that
get so they're going to have to pay closer attention
because there's little vessels that are contained at a microscopic
level where you're trying to stop the bleeding. That's going
to make it all the more difficult because you're tearing
up more tissue. Right, maybe a bad analogy. It's it's
kind of like a holowpoint round, you know, holowpoint round
(19:30):
kind of deploys. It has like a claw on it,
you know, when it strikes and it's ripping those little
vessels and destroying, cavitating that tissue as supposed to say,
ball ammunition that's going through kind of is more smooth
at any rate.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
And I didn't mean to get you off on that.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Just no, no, no, talk about it all day, because.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
If I don't ask, I'm not going to know.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Man.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
I've heard you know, I've heard people talk at the
serrated edge of this, and all I'm thinking of whatever
knife is in the drawer that I use to cut meat,
that's the knife. I don't know what it is. It's
unless it's a genzy because I know I can cut
open my ten can, my cinder block and my ham.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah, what was the old adage in Japan? The hand
could be used like a knife, you know. And I
don't know. I've got a couple of Japanese friends. I've
never asked them if they own again to knife. Probably not.
I think it's strictly an American thing that yeah, and yeah,
yeah pocket fishermen, but yeah, you know, you think about
the utility of this, and it can be weaponized and
(20:27):
this goes back to something else we've talked about on
body backs, and that is weapons of opportunity. Right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Oh yeah, it's not.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Like she went out and I don't know a lot
of k bar right, okay, or a rambow hunting knife. Right,
it's a it's a it's a weapon of convenience that
is within arm's reach. And a lot of a lot
of domestic violence events that you see will have will
(20:59):
have this kind of theme to it. You know that
it literally was a candlestick, or it literally to bludgeon somebody,
or it was a hammer, or you know, it was
a kitchen knife. I famously I remember and I still
use this case and instruction as a forensics professor I
(21:20):
had and again, this was a case of domestic violence
that I used, that I used that I worked years
and years ago, and I used the images to teach
my kids. I had a lady that her husband had
been He would come home drunk every day and he
would beat her with a belt, and she had kids
and he would do this in front of the kids.
(21:40):
One evening, he beat her with a belt using the
buckle end, and he passed out on the sofa face down.
She went to the to the silver rituar pulled out
a steak knife that is not the best quality, climbed
on his back. He's laying in a prone position, and
(22:01):
she buried that thing in his back nine times before
it broke off. And I've got this image of this
knife that's probably broken halfway up the blade, and it's
it's protruding, you know, through here, and you can see.
And the thing about it is when you examine these
injuries from a from a scalloped or a serrated edge,
(22:24):
you can when it's removed and you look at it
very very carefully in a clinical sense, you can actually
see you can actually see this pattern developed. That's one
of the that's one of the ways, say, for instance,
if you come up to a scene and you have
it looks as though you have multiple stablings, but you
don't have a weapon, right, Okay, first off, you get
(22:47):
the dimensions of it. What's at its greatest width, what's
the greatest width of it? Okay, Well, if you've got
a steak knife, you know which everybody thinks of a
classic steak knife that you can buy at any store,
maybe three quarters of an inch in with that its
greatest point as opposed to something that might be two inches,
might have a smooth edge. But in this case, this
(23:09):
thing's really wide that cleanie allegedly used and it's serrated.
But you know what she's saying. What she's saying here
relative to how this thing was used, Dave is the
big rub but in this whole thing, because it just
it doesn't make sense. It didn't make sense to me.
(23:29):
I was not gonna bite on it.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I remember asking about it. I remember when I saw it,
because she claimed that he was the aggressor, that she
was defending herself, and that she threw the knife from
ten feet away.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
At a range of ten feet.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Now, how far would you have to throw a conventional
steak knife, Joe to get it to penetrate anything from emptyed?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Well, okay, first off, it's not the velocity at which
you throw it. It's the manner in which it's thrown.
And also in our all of our friends don't believe
thing I say. Researchers yourself. Okay, not on a front note,
Go read about it or watch a video on YouTube.
There are throwing knives, and many of you guys know that,
(24:12):
because I know that some of you guys out there
are interested in this sort of thing. There are throwing knives. Well,
those knives that you see that are actually thrown, they
are balanced, they have specific specs. Okay, because if you're
going to throw a knife, you have to be able
to have the touch, to know how the thing is
going to rotate, and to try to get it onto
(24:34):
target and target and even professional knife throwers if they're
targeting an area, say if they're throwing the thing in
the heat of battle, which, by the way, I have
never ever worked a homicide related to a thrown knife.
(24:56):
Just because Joe Scott Morgan hasn't worked one doesn't mean
that they don't exist. I'm sure that they do. Millions
of people have died violently. It has to have happened
at least just out of sheer dumb luck. Somebody would
have thrown something. Now, I've had other things thrown at
people and they killed them, but never like certainly not
a kitchen knife, right, And that's what kind of stuck
(25:17):
in my mind. Dave, you were talking about how much
force would it take, our velocity would you have to have? Well,
the thing about it is, Dave, I've had I've had
projectile shot at people that didn't go the same depth
that this thing went. This thing went three inches and
(25:37):
not only did it go three inches in to Christian's body,
it also penetrated an area immediately adjoined adjoining one of
the most robust bony areas in our body. Right here,
you're clavical, your collar bonus right here. If everybody will
(25:58):
just Palpatriot, it's around, you can find it right here.
I've had mind broken. I broke mind when I was
a child. Many people break their collar bones. This thing
actually went beneath the collarbone and went into the subclave artery,
which is an absolute lethal shot. He would have In
order for him to have survived this, there would have
(26:24):
had to have been a group of cardiothoracic surgeons standing
by there with kit to open him up, tie this
thing off. Because this used to be used to be
not so much anymore, but this used to be like
if you were going to in nursing in the medical sense,
they would put in what was called a central line,
(26:45):
like if you had to have medication running through you.
They do it other places now, but the subclave because
you could delivery you could deliver drugs really quickly right
here by pushing it. You know, you put a lock
in here, you know, an injectable lie where you could
push drugs in and the uptake would be really quick.
This thing is all married up with these structures in
(27:09):
the neck that supply the brain of course, is going
up and back, and this sort of thing as an artery.
So this is the type one of the reasons you
saw so much blood deposition at the scene. It's an
arterial strike. So when this thing impacts in there, you're
striking a rather robust artery and she knicks this thing. Okay,
(27:30):
I swear, David, I have a memory of being able
to there was a nine to one call. I swear
I could have heard. I think I heard him in
the background or something, and you can he's like he's
he's got the dwindles really, which makes sense because as
you're losing a volume of blood, it's this kind of
sleepiness that begins to take over until you know you're
(27:52):
at the point where and you'll have people that do this,
they go through this, they'll get nauseated, sometimes they'll vomit,
and they're running out of oxygenated blood because it's pouring
out everywhere. And this would have been a bloody scene.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
But not something that could have been accomplished as described
by Courtney Clinny.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
No not, I don't. I just I can't feature that
in any world. I don't know. Maybe the defense has
another explanation. I got to tell you when this thing
finally does go to trial, whenever that is, because now
we're four years on right, and oh yeah, so we're
(28:34):
beyond now. Yeah, so you know when we get to
that point. And I'm not saying this tongue in cheek,
I truly want to know, because I could have sworn
that they they had consulted somebody out there or somebody
(28:54):
has at this point in time that throws knives. Now,
are they going to parade this person up on the
stand to talk about the utility of throwing knives and
their level of lethality, Because you know, we can sit
here all day long and talk about throwing knives that
are meant to be thrown. But what about an inexperienced,
(29:18):
thirty year old only fans model from a range of
ten feet throwing this knife at a very robust boyfriend
that's so well muscled and built like an Adonis. What
are the odds that she's going to strike PEYTRT. So
(29:47):
you know, I know I've said it, and you've said
it several times as we're having this chin wag as
they say, Dave over this, but you know, this thing
has not come to fruition yet. And one of the
reasons I had mentioned this, and what really caught my
eye was it they said that they, being the defense
(30:13):
in this case, still have nine more depositions to go,
and I'm thinking, good lord, how well, how many people
do you need to have a conversation with.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
All of this If they're going to get Courtney Clinny, Well,
if you know her from only fans, Courtney Taylor, her
real name, Courtney Clinny. The reason they are having to
do so many interviews, Joe, and the reason they're having
to string this out is because the defense is trying
to claim this happened in self defense. But after the
(30:45):
investigation into the relationship, law enforcement determined that they that
the couple was involved in a toxic and violent relationship
between the two of them. Fighting was a regular part
of their life together. And it really comes down to
this incident because you can't claim you did it in
(31:07):
self defense when the physical evidence doesn't match up and
so the interviews are to back up the story she's
trying to sell. Yeah, because still she is allegedly a killer.
At this point, hey man, we've seen bigger fish, you know,
get away with things, and I'm not saying that she will.
(31:30):
I'm just saying based on what we know, based on
the video that you have referenced a couple of times,
the elevator video, the police camera video. By the way,
there are still stories about where they lived in Texas.
Courtney and Toby. They lived in Austin, Texas before moving
to Miami, and while they were there, police were regularly
(31:53):
called to their apartment complex for violent interaction between the two.
So what the defense is trying to do is to
get enough evidence on their side so that they can
now claim Toby, who is not here to defend himself
because he's dead at his girlfriend's hands. They need to
overwhelm the jury with all of these people who say
(32:14):
Courtney was the victim. That's why it's going to take
so long. But four years in, Joe, I know that
justice delayed is not necessarily justice denied, but can you
imagine what it must be like for Toby's family to
witness this now? The family is claiming that Courtney is
treated differently because she's a pretty white girl and that
(32:36):
her boyfriend was a big black guy. And they've actually
come out and said that, well, four years in, Joe,
I don't know why it's taken so long to get
to court to get a trial yet. I don't know,
but at some point somebody's going to have to explain
those kniphoons. And if they call you, holy moly man,
(32:56):
Joe explained this to me what it would take were
that knife to do what it did from where she
claims she was, And I'm telling you, Harry Houdini would
come back during a seance before that would happen again.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Okay, well, I think the biggest tell here is, I mean,
you know, we've already kind of addressed what the level
of meathality the thing is all right where it has
nick this vessel. But Dave, here's the here's the real
problem that they run into. She is significantly smaller than
(33:37):
the victim. Okay, when you height comparison alone, there's several
there are several images okay of them out there as
a couple. I beg you please, friends, go look at them.
This insult that this fellow sustained right aspect to the
(34:00):
collar bone, Dave. This thing has got a downward track, Okay,
So not only yeah, ok yeah, yeah, like swinging from
above to below. We're not talking about a slice where
you're dragging a blade like this. We're talking about emotion
that would have to be like this downward trajectory and
(34:24):
you're burying it three inches inch And when you bury
this thing in him, okay, and you withdraw it, you're
going to have you're going to have a copious amount
of blood that'll be pouring out. I think my my
big question is what at what point in time was
(34:47):
this knife withdrawn? Because you know, there's there's an old
thought to this that if someone is stabbed right and
the weapon is still indwelling, and this this also applies,
leave it or not too impalements as well. If you
can leave the object in place, okay, there's a higher
(35:08):
likelihood you got a better chance at surviving because you've
got to blockage. So if you withdraw this thing makes sense. Right,
So if you withdraw this thing, you know you've got
blood that's now pulsing out. And we do this in
the morgue, but for a different reason like if I
have if I have a case where someone has been
(35:30):
stabbed and a knife has been left in I've had
people impaled on rebar fence post all these trees you
get up into those areas, and I've actually had firefighters
come out and you know, like with a piece of rebar,
I've had them cut it so that it's manageable and
can put the body into the body bag, and I
don't take it out. We x ray it with the
(35:52):
place in place. I remember a kid that car ran
through a bunch of debris that had been a yard
trimmings and that sort of thing, and he had a
holly you know holly trees. They had a holly tree
that had a trunk on this thing that was four
feet in diameters how old it was. And they'd cut
(36:14):
this thing down. They left the branches on the branch
came in through the came in through one of the
side panels of the van. He was right in the
back and went through diagonaling and we left that in. So,
you know, you want to leave these things in place.
If you're dealing with a living you want to live
them in place. If you're dealing with the dead, either
(36:35):
way okay, and that way you can kind of tell
it tell the story from that perspective. However, if it
has been removed it's laying on the floor. One thing
you're also going to be able to tell at the scene.
And I don't know if these people they're deposing, if
they've got a Crumson reconstructionist that's going to be involved
in this, because these blood patterns are going to tell
(36:57):
the tale. I talked about the r TiAl nature and deposition.
Most people have heard of this construct within blood spatter
interpretation that talks about arterial spray hissman like it's pumping out.
You can see these movements, passive droppings like you see
with the Nancy Guthrie case where it's just kind of
free falling aspirt stuff like you see in Nancy Guthrie. Well,
(37:21):
it's expert that you see in her case. You also
saw it in Travis Alexander. I could go on and
on and on. Are they going to have a person
like that that they're deposing that's going to sit on
the stand. I also believe that in this case, Dave,
because you got a knife involved, you're not gonna need
a firearms expert. You're gonna need a tool mark expert,
(37:42):
so you think about some of the people that might
be on this list. Tool mark expert that's independent of
somebody obviously from the crime lab. They're gonna be working
for the defense. They're going to talk about the nature
of the instrument itself, what the level of lethality it
could have. But before you do that, you have to
describe what's the purpose of this knife. You know, what's
(38:02):
it used for? Okay, But that's a dangerous trap to
walk into because this knife, I can tell you, even
though it might feel really good in your hand when
you're using it to cut up your pork chops or
you know, your your steak or whatever is you're cutting,
that don't mean it has any utility as a throwing weapon. Okay,
it just it doesn't. It's not intended to be made
(38:28):
for that purpose. So that's a very dangerous area for
the defense to get into if they're talking about forensic
viability and utility. Here, I'm trying to think of anybody
else that they could be waiting to depose unless they're
going to be deposing other states witnesses to bring them
in and have them, you know, be spoken to you know,
(38:52):
about their conclusions in any of the testing that was done. Well,
you know, Joe.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
So they've got domestic violence charges with Courtney Clinny in
You've got it in Florida, You've got it in Texas,
and they were in Las Vegas one time and she
got arrested on a domestic violence charged there. So the
defense is going to be pulling a lot of things
together to say that she was defending herself. You know,
that she was a victim all along, and that's they're
(39:18):
gonna have a lot to defend. You know, she's she's
already told the story that they're stuck with. She doesn't
get to change it now. You know, she claims she
killed him by throwing a knife from ten feet away.
That's her story and they have to stick to it.
So everybody they're talking to now is trying to find
a way that'll justify it. And all I'm thinking, you know,
(39:39):
the time actually other than a Bruce Lee movie, Kevin
Costner in The Bodyguard, Remember when he's uh, he's throwing
knives and it's a great scene because he misses.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
The first times.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
It's like going everywhere, and then he throws you know,
and nails it and it's like those were throwing knives
and you could look at those, they were balanced, you could.
All I could think of is how do you get
away from that? But this is a statement I've got
in my drard Joe, and.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Well, you have to keep in mind Kevin Costler's a
trained assassin. I don't know if you're aware of it.
So but yeah, yeah, and so no, really, though your
point is well taken, Dave, you know what, how are
you going to explain this way? I tell you another
interesting part? And you mentioned this about this this kid
out of Texas that she's speaking to going down the street, right,
(40:29):
and you know this is more of a behavioral thing,
but you know, behavior is all part of this, certainly
terminal behavior, you know, when you're looking at what happened
to Christian. I'll be very interested to see if they
drag this individual, what if they bring that Dallas or
the Dallas area officer that handled that case, they bring
(40:50):
them down to Miami. And I've seen that happen before.
Where if somebody's got this historyonics of being unstable and
these sorts of things you know, I've seen and bring
other people in It's an interesting pairing. I have to say,
I have to say from the perspective of where this
thing could go, because to this point, I guess the
(41:13):
reason my interest is piqued about the destination is that
to this point we haven't gone anywhere yet. We're still waiting,
and Christian's family is still waiting. There are many people
that won't answers, and I hope, I hope that the
delay won't be too much longer, because it seems as
(41:34):
though four years is quite enough time. We're going to
keep you posted about this case because it's just so
bloody bizarre, and we'll see which way the wind blows with.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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