July 16, 2024 • 40 mins
It’s no secret that Steven is passionate about futbol! But of course he is not alone. The moment of soccer becoming a major part of mainstream American culture is here, and in this episode Steven and Marisa bring on longtime media executive Jason Wagenheim, who is now the North American CEO of Footballco, to talk about what that means for brands. Do you know why soccer has been such a phenomenon in most other parts of the world? What’s the difference between youth sports here and everywhere else and how does that shape the creation of American stars? Whether you are a casual fan or never leave your house without wearing your team’s jersey, in this summer of Copa America, the Euro Cup and more… we think you’ll find this conversation pitch perfect.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa
Plbert and.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Stephen Wolf Perida. Marissa, I'm in Miami. Welcome to Miami.
Bim Benilos, I'm Miami.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And I'm going there next week. So you know, we
just didn't overlap this time, but it's so much better when.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We do, I know. But we're here in Miami for
a very special occasion because it is the finals of
Copa America and so by the time this drops, we
will know the winner of the Argentina versus Columbia match,
as well as the Spain versus England match in the
Euros in Germany. And obviously I'm trying to contain myself
because it is all things football all the time, and
(00:50):
it's finally like we get to really live the football experience.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Steven. We are letting you play out your favorite favorite
topic today. Happy for you, my friend. But you know
we wouldn't do it if it weren't genuinely important to
when we're thinking about what's brand new, the business of brands,
culture and how we play in that because whether you
(01:17):
want to call it soccer or whether you want to
call it football, and I know which way you lean.
It's here in the United States, So we're gonna be
talking a lot about that. At this moment of recording,
we don't know who will be the big winner of COPA,
but I will say my current hometown of Charlotte, North
Carolina had its own moment with this, had a huge moment,
big match here, huge MATCHA.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
With Columbia versus Odawai. You know, I got a little
messy at the end, But I feel like this is
where culture transcends borders, and specifically sports culture transcends borders,
and I think that is the moment that we're seeing.
I've had so many people ask about kind of trying
to understand football soccer, you know, explain to me the
one on one like why are people so passionate? But
I feel like there's so few things that truly bring
(02:00):
together communities, that brings fandom the way that this sport does.
And honestly, it's so bigger than we all understand. And
I'm on a mission, especially you know, with you know,
kind of youth sports in this country, to really make
sure that it doesn't kind of die out, peter out
by the time you get to high school, because that's
when you really see these things, you know, kind of
maybe go sideways, because that's when you know, maybe people
(02:22):
start to, you know, get more interested in American football
or NBA or baseball. But I really think that we're
at the stipping point. You know.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I often get asked what do I love about marketing?
What do I love being a marketer? And I've consistently
said that it's this intersection of three things, the combination
of business, human psychology, and the third leg of that
stool for me is culture. And what's interesting when you
think about what are the ten poles of culture, because
for me, the most fun and interesting thing is to
(02:52):
figure out how to connect brands into culture. Is we've
often thought about culture as a US export, particularly the
entertainment industry Hollywood. I mean, you know that is doesn't
mean that there isn't Bollywood and other forms of cinema
and TV creation. Of course, it's global, but it's a
uniquely US originated form of culture. Football is not a
(03:16):
US originated form of culture or specifically even in sports,
and yet it is here. And what makes it, I
think important is it so global and a lot of
the brands that we're talking to and about and working
for are global brands.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah. I mean, look, I feel so Patricka's culture drives behavior, right,
that's right when you think of kind of this perspective,
and you know, maybe we need to have another kind
of dedicated pod to culture through the business of brands.
Because you know, there was a very famous cover of
The Economists, which I'm an avid reader of, and it
was I think in twenty ten, and it had the
(03:53):
map of you know, kind of North and South America,
but it was inverted, so at the top was actually
Argentina and then you know you kind of went all
the way down and you know, the United States and
Canada was actually at the bottom of the map. And
it all depends on your perspective. And so to think
that kind of culture is coming and it's you know,
this huge expert from the US to the world. You know,
(04:15):
I feel like we're at this moment where it's so
fluid and we see it obviously, you know from a
Telbis gonna be young perspective, just you know, to see
how things are bilingual and bicultural. But when you see
you know, kind of the biggest you know, hits maybe
on Netflix being something like Squid Game out of Korea
or Money heightst out of Spain. Just understanding that it
is truly this global fluidity when it comes to culture
(04:37):
and to have, you know, kind of talent being discovered,
you know on all the streaming platforms, when you see
athletes and clubs. I mean the fact that you have
such fandom for the Premier League, which is obviously in England.
I mean I'm in La I'm waking up at four
in the morning with my son who is going to
be nine, and we are watching Arsenal at that time
(04:58):
because of that fandom. So this is truly global.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Oh, I know, I know, listen. I mean you and
I haven't talked so much about this. I grew up
my dad was a sports reporter before he became a lawyer,
and at the end of his way too prematurely cut
off life, he kind of went back to that sports
are such a part of my growing up. It was
such a part of how I connected with my dad.
(05:26):
Back when the Mets played at Shaye Stadium, not City Field.
Remember we had box seats, even when the Mets were terrible.
I went to Brown and it wasn't like a bastion
of college sports. And even so my dad knew like
all the stats of all the football players, a brown
wasn't slightly embarrassing. But anyway, it's true. I mean, it
is such a connective tissue of family.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Oh wait, I love the fact that you and your
dad connected with sports. I have to work on that
with my daughter Sienna. We're not there yet because every
time we put on a football match, you know, she's like, Okay,
I'm going to go do something else.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
What girls play sports and girls love sports? Right, Fandom
isn't a guy thing either. We've got to correct that perception.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Absolutely. I'm trying to get her into it, right, But
we did a aysl and she just didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, we had that in my family too, and David
coached both teams. Went okay, good stories to share on that,
but yeah, no, we still love watching it as a family,
even if like he's the more rabbit sports fan like
you are, the more rabid sports fan. But we do
love it, and I think again it comes to sort
of the role of sports and culture, and it's kind
of fun that as a result of that, it's big
(06:28):
summer for sports and not in the only US way,
but in the global way. So we're going to make
this a little bit of a two parter hot topic.
We're going to be talking today about football. Had I
do there?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Good?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Okay? That was good for a dear friend, Jason wagon High. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
With our dear friend Jason Waggon the next episode, we
are at the precipice of the Summer Olympic Games, which
are about to happen in Paris, and we're going to
have a very special guest to be kind of talking
about that through the lens of Brand New.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And we're back and on the cusp of not one
but two football or soccer finals that just happened, the
Euros in Germany and Copamerica here in the States in Miami.
We thought it was a real gone to get the
North American CEO of Football Co, the one and only
Jason Wagenheim. Welcome to Brand New.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Jason, great to be here, first time guest, very long
time listener. You guys do such a great job. I
was honored to get the call off the bench, off
the pitch.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Well.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
I think Stephen has been waiting for this moment to
say goal. But related to the topic at hand, but
we're both really excited to have you, And I think
what's so cool, Jason is we've all been industry friends
and grown up in this business in our different incarnations
for a while, and so thought it would be interesting.
I'll kick it off if that's okay with talking about
(07:52):
what your own progression means and what we can kind
of parse from it in terms of where brand's business
are going, because I mean I think, like we go
back all the way to your teen bogued Gays, if
not earlier, and then you went more and sort of
the digital media publishing side with Bustle, but now here
you are placing, frankly, your own big bet on not
(08:15):
just sports but football soccer, and like, break that down
for us a little bit in terms of your own
decision making and what you think that means in terms
of where American media is going. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I've been telling everybody Marissa that I've I've jumped out
of Mabeline and into Sambas and brought in my idea
to Sambas. It's been pretty awesome, you know, twenty five
year career at places like Condi, Nas Teen, Vogue, Glamour,
Vanity Fair, others, and then the last seven years of
bustle digital groups. So I've always been in like the
women's lifestyle side of things right, and sport always felt
like a almost like a foreign land to me. I
(08:48):
was actually growing up in the business just super jealous
of all the big rights deals that were done in
the sponsorships and just the hundreds of millions of dollars
that was always thrown at the sports category while we
were out scrounging around for our you know, fifteen one
hundred thousand dollars deals in lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
But it's been a.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Really awesome jump. A lot of the skill set of
really great packaging and creating ten polls and creating urgency
around content, all the things that publishers in any category
have done really well since the dawn of time translates
really well into sport. So I actually think I kind
of got the job because I didn't come out of
a traditional sports background, and I think with what we're
(09:23):
looking to launch and build here in the US with
gold dot Com, which is our flagship and Indivisa, which
is our women's brand, is a lot of what the
women's lifestyle category invented a century ago, and it translates
really well because great storytelling matters in every single category,
and marketers and brand executives are at the root of
(09:43):
telling good stories as well. So how do we marry
those things up? But just do it through the lens
of sport and specifically soccer.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I that's so interesting though, because soccer does feel like
it's finally having its moment or has been having its moment.
I mean, if you ask Steven, I know you're going
to say, it's always at its moment in the US,
it has.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
It's always had its moment where it's again, the US
is just late to the game. You know, this is
the beautiful game the world sport. But double click on
the business of sport. I mean, yeah, honestly, Jason, I
feel that sports is really the only thing that really
is working in media, if you're really being honest, it's
what really convenes, you know, whether it's Super Bowl, NBA Finals,
(10:24):
but obviously things like the euros Copamaerica and then in
two years the World Cup. Just help me understand, you know,
kind of the power of sports fandom and why do
you think it's just so relevant for brands today.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah, look, I mean at the center of fandom is
really community and the veracity of the passion that fans
have for their teams and their clubs. I mean there's
USL clubs that get five or ten thousand people out
for games. These are rabid fans. They're in places like
in Providence, Whode Islands, you know, where they don't have
a professional team in their backyard. So in a lot
of ways, you know, sport in particular, if you got
(10:57):
the NFL or an NBA or an MLB team, if
you're that lucky in a major market like great, but
the rest of the country you know, doesn't necessarily have
some of the pro sports. So even the B team
sports or leagues go really far for encouraging that fandom
and community. And I think sports just generally speaking, is
just such an awesome lens for marketers to connect through
because that fandom and that loyalty that fans have for
(11:19):
their clubs. I mean, they are born Argentina fans, they
are born Arsenal fans, you know, they are born LAFC fans,
whatever it might be. Fans of the Mexican national team.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Hit by three clubs, my three teams, So thank you
for that. There you go.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I do that on purpose. There are sixty million fans
of the Mexican national team living in America, and they
are born into that. It is a birthright. And when
you think about what brand marketers, what their number one
objective is is to create that same kind of loyalty.
And I go back, you know, to my days in
the University of South Carolina, you know, go game cops.
(11:52):
I dated girls in college. They were typically usually named
Ashley because they were Southern bells.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
But they hey, wait a second, I'm going to have
a unc. You go about a month. So, but she's
not named Ashley, She's not na enough.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
They only ever used Tide because that was Whoever Dale
Earnhardt's NASCAR sponsorship, or they only ever ate cheerios because
it was whoever like NASCAR. Doc, That's the kind of
loyalty that really connects, and sport is an awesome magnet
to do that or connector.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
How is it different do you think that fandom? And
then what the implications are for brands with football with soccer.
I'm going to say in the US versus American football, basketball, baseball,
because I mean those have been the American pastimes right totally.
I'm curious what's different, what's the same.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
What I've loved most about really becoming a student of
the sport. And you know, I'm six months into this.
I played growing up. I followed it casually, the professional
game and mostly the elite clubs you know, around the world,
not like Steven who was probably born into it, you know,
with his Latino background. But I think the difference really
exists in the tribe and the different pockets of fandom
(13:02):
that come with soccer. So you've got the Hispanic fans,
which make up a massive, massive percentage. You've got women
who are following the women's game and men who are
following the women's game. Are us women actually win and
do really well in tournaments. I'm like our men right now.
There'll be some good changes I think made there.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Women.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
You've got the Anglo files who are waking up first
thing in the morning on Saturday to watch Peacock at
seven in the morning and follow the Premier League and
some of the elite leagues overseas. And then you have
the fans, which is growing really quickly, the fans of
the American game like MLS and USL and the National
Women's Soccer League. I mean, we're really building soccer communities
here in America, and you've got many, many pockets of
fandom all connected through this global sport soccer. Football is
(13:42):
the largest sport globally, hands down. For context, one point
five billion people watch the World Cup in twenty twenty
two worldwide, one hundred and fifty million watch the Super Bowl.
It's ten x the size of what viewership is for
the Super Bowl. We're never going to be bigger than
the NFL here, We're never going to be bigger than
you know, American football, but it's making a lot of
(14:04):
headway and that the type of fandom is really again
something you're born into, which I think is a big difference.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I love hearing Jason share these stats because I don't
have to a be It's it's so refreshing and rewarding
to actually see you be the student of the beautiful
game listeners.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Know.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I'm a proud dad. I have my six year old daughter,
but my next week nine year old now son Sabathian
who obviously plays club football. And you know, I'm curious
when you think of all the different audiences, when you
think about you know, kind of demographics, psychographics, I just remember,
you know, kind of an election year, it was all
(14:44):
about the soccer moms and everyone was really like discovering
this audience and how it was the key you know,
voting block. But when you think about just kind of
soccer as it develops in youth and it's very much
pay to play in this country versus other countries where
it really is and it's all based on your talent,
where do you think it breaks down? Because I feel
like you think about the trajector. I think part of
(15:05):
the issue why it hasn't taken off in this country
to the extent that has globally one there's just so
much competition, you know, because there's NFL, NBA and MLB
and everything else. But I also think there is a
lack of really seeing stars, like where's our Lebron seeing
that level of superstars? And then where do you think
the competition really starts to creep in? You know, is
(15:27):
it at the high school level? Like why don't we
see it really continuing to kind of evolve and get
the popularity.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
It's a great question, and it's actually a question I've
been asked often in the last six months in this gig.
I think, first to start, it is catching on and
the moment is now. And anybody that says, why hasn't
soccer came on in America yet, Well it has. It's
a five year old, maybe ten year old myth. Now,
when you look at all the stats around the investment
being made from broadcasters, Apple did a two and a
half billion dollar ten year deal to carry MLS, pass,
(15:56):
CBS and ESPN and Amazon all combined with Scripts to
do a two hundred forty million dollars broadcast deal for
NWSL rights, largest broadcast rights deal ever done for any
women's sport globally around the world last year. Right, when
you look at attendance at matches and WSL just hit
one million attendees midway through the season. Last year they
had one point two million attendees for the entire season,
(16:18):
So we'll probably hit the two million market.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Just for the casual listener that might not know NWSL is.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
The National Women's Soccer League. There you go. When I
look at all the stats and I look at viewership,
I look at salaries, I look at some of the
prices that are being paid for transfers in the National
Women's Soccer League in particular, all the stats say that
soccer is here and it is catching on. It's typically
tied with hockey now for like the number four sport
in America, but soccer's made a lot of headways. So
(16:44):
the moment is now. I look at all the investment
being made from sponsorship. So Marissa, you know, we talked
about this before we got on. If you just check
every box on like what makes something successful, like soccer's arrived,
it's here, so like it's no more, why hasn't it?
It's okay, what's next? And that's all really great, And
again part of the reason I even took the job.
I really saw that opportunity. But the answer to your question, Stephen,
is really about the money. Like the best stars like
(17:06):
Christian Polisic, who's a fantastic you know forward, he plays
for ac Milan. He's an American playing in Syria, the
Professional League of Italy, if you will, And you know,
keeping these stars here really just takes a lot of money.
And then it's the talent front. You're right, like the
whole club soccer thing in America is a very broken system,
(17:27):
and it costs a lot of money for parents to
be able to afford the gear and the uniforms, but
also all the stays at the spring Hill suites and
the gas money to travel hundreds of miles to play soccer.
That's a barrier that doesn't exist in other places around
the world. So we have to do a better job
of making soccer accessible to communities and underserved communities in particular,
where a lot of the talent can be found. And
(17:48):
then we have to figure out how to nurture those
players inside of America through an academy system like they
have in other countries, and we have that here and
are starting to develop that more. And then you know,
figure out how to continue to get the broadcasters and
the sponsors interested enough in soccer to continue to pump
hundreds of millions of dollars into it so we can
keep Christian Polisic here in America. And MLS just you know,
(18:11):
can't be that's Major League Soccer. The Major League Soccer
League can't just be a place where players like Leonel
Messi or David Beckham or Luis Suarez come at the
end of their career because they were paid a bunch
of money to do. So we've got to have the
homegrown talent and the ability to develop our youth and
participation levels. So they stay here.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
That makes a lot of sense in that when you
think about what are the core fundamentals of American sports fandom,
it's that we have these homegrown heroes. And of course,
even saying that is a little bit of a myth.
I mean, look at baseball, vast majority of some superstar
players are coming from places like the Dominican Republic. So
it's I mean, what does homegrown even mean? But it
(18:51):
feel if not truly homegrown, but if it feels American,
feels American, that's it.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah. But forty percent of all baseball players are now
email right, which is just a staggering stat right, Right,
But they play here versus you know, maybe Japan and
like some pockets around the world, but like baseball is
played in the US, right, NFL.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Same with basketball and certainly NFL.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Right. But your point, Jason, you know, soccer people are
going to go to where they are going to get
paid and valued, and obviously you know it's predominantly Europe.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, okay, so then let's take this to brands, right,
Because your point, which I think is an important point
to drive, it's not when is it arriving. It's arrived.
But then there are still these sort of differences in
perception the stardom piece. So and you're out selling this
as media, Now, what are the best ways for brands
(19:43):
to participate? Is it just about being on the jersey
and the jersey so unique? But what else?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
What are you seeing?
Speaker 1 (19:49):
What's the future going to look like in this regard?
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, it's actually it's a perfect question and a segue
that that's of what we were just talking about. I
think it's all this big ecosystem of content and storytelling
and sponsorship and rights and audience and engagement. And if
you think about it, like we've already proven and just
talked about how the growth trajectory of soccer in America,
it's arrived at a really incredible point over the last
(20:13):
decade in particular, and we're at this critical inflection point now.
The next phase is really around the storytelling piece. So
what stories are we telling that frankly aren't about Lionel
Messi or you know, some highlight from the pitch last
night in some match. What stories are we telling that
make the sport really interesting and accessible for the casual
fans so they become very interested in watching a match
(20:35):
and getting to the stadium or tuning in or getting
an Amazon Prime subscription so they can watch NWSL or
buy or you know, sign up for an account with
the Ally Bank, let's say. And that really starts with
what publishers have done really well forever, which is really
great storytelling. You know, I've been talking about this Kelsey
and Taylor Swiss relationship has done for the NFL. You know,
(20:57):
all jokes aside, whatever you want to say about that.
Taylor Swift made American football really really interesting for a
lot of nine year old girls. And that was a
crossover sort of moment that made something accessible to people
who otherwise might not have entered the sport. And I
think we can find those moments that are similar. There's
(21:17):
lifestyle beats around fashion, music, culture, food, travel. We can
tell all those stories, but use soccer as a backdrop
to make the game interesting. And I'll use a great example.
Soccer is interesting in America because Lionel Messi arrived here.
He's the goat, He's the greatest player of all time
by miles and him playing for Inter Miami has opened
(21:38):
up the American soccer appetite more than it ever has before.
But there's another thing that happened too. It's Welcome to
Wrexham with what Ryan Reynolds and Rob McAlhaney have done
with that series. When I arrived at Goal in January,
our top ten stories every month were one of two things.
It was a Lionel Messi story or it was a
Welcome to Wrexham story. Absolutely, that's not about what happens
on the pitch with Wrexham. It's really great, good old
(22:01):
fashioned storytelling dudge that made people access and enter the game.
And Wrexham, which is this total B division team playing
for the English Football League and.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Not even B Division. That's like like literally if you
have like major leagues, minor leagues, little league, this is
like t ball, you know, junior little league. Yes, it
literally is like the fourth division in the English football system.
And the fact that they bought this, you know, for
like maybe like two million dollars or something and it's
been promoted, I mean, it is an incredible success story.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It sounds like ted Lasso to me talking about crossover culture.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
By the way, Ted, it's another great example Marisa ted
Lasso has made soccer really interesting. It's part of the formula,
you know, storytelling is part of this formula that has
accelerated the interest in soccer and enthusiasm forward here.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
So, so a couple of takeaways I'm getting here is one,
you know, I guess you know, Shakira just performed, you know,
at the halftime at Copamerica. So maybe we have to
get some type of romance thing going to get the
Taylor Swift equivalent, you know, maybe with her, you know too,
you know you're talking about like all these clubs. I mean,
what a lot of folks don't know is that the
most popular league in the United States is actually not MLS.
(23:07):
It's the Mexican League Liga MX. And I mean that
blows people's minds, right. I think the third thing, when
you talk about like brands and storytelling, one of the
things that I'll pokemon have fun at My wife, Nodia.
She always is making fun of me because whenever I'm
wearing a jersey, whether it's you know, Arsenal in the
Premier League or Real Madrid or even LAFC, the team
(23:29):
is actually the logo of the team is so small
relative to the sponsor, which is just you know, plastered
on the front of your chest. So for Arsenal and
Real Madrid, it's the Emirates Airlines, so it says fly Emirates.
So Noria is always like, oh yeah, so are you
supporting Emirates today? Are Emirates playing today? And I don't
know of any other sport that actually has the logo
(23:49):
of the brand bigger than the club. I mean, is
that an interesting? Is that, like, you know, controversial? I mean,
do you view that as you know, kind of a
key launching pad for the storytelling?
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Jason, Jason, you answer that too. I mean, this is
what first of all, everyone should know. This is the audio.
Steven is always wearing a jersey, and you're repping today too,
So I feel silly that I didn't put a jersey
on myself.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Well, we're getting a special branded jersey for you, Morison.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
You both look good.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
I had to show up in my Argentina jersey for Steven.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Oh, thank you, a brand new jersey.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I think the jersey question is really interesting. That's why
I tipped at it a little before. But then also
like what else in terms of where the state of
brands and soccer is today in the US, Like, what
are you thinking are the right ways to play?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah? It goes back to this whole circle of this
or funnel, whatever we want to call it, of what
brands shouldn't be doing is just logo slaps on jerseys
signed at a stadium, and hospitality for twenty of their
executives at a match. Like sure, those things aren't unimportant.
Commercials on Univision are certainly very very important because Sebastian
needs to eat.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
But those are table sticks.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
I really do encourage, and we're seeing more marketers do
this is deputize players athletes to tell stories. And I'm
not just talking about the Messis or the Beckhams of
the world, or the top players in Europe. I'm talking
about the women who are playing in the National Women's
Soccer League as a side hustle because they only make
sixty thousand dollars a year. There's a woman, Michelle and Lotzi.
She plays for the Houston and WSL team. Her day
(25:21):
job is a research medical tech at Houston's Children's Hospital.
She moonlights as a professional soccer player. So we've done
some more to tell her story. You know, we need
to continue to use storytelling to make the players and
the fan communities and the leagues and the clubs in
America more interesting, and brands can help fund that work
and they can benefit from the beautiful side effect that
(25:44):
comes with that is the loyalty that they'll build with
fan communities for their own brands. And once we start
to tell those stories and prop up these underserved teams
in communities and athletes, the money will follow. Sponsorship dollars
will follow, the broadcast rights will follow, Stadium attendance will
be lifted up. It's all related, and it all starts
with storytelling, good old fashioned upper funnel storytelling to drive
(26:07):
people down the funnel, to convert to a fan or
a viewer or a subscriber.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
A dais And we're living in a world of this
is a pet pee for both MERRISA and I. Upper
funnel versus lower funnel, brand versus performance. Again, somehow brand
doesn't need performance. But when you talk about all this
upper funnel awareness stuff, when folks are so obsessed with
dr and lower funnel performance, how do you kind of
make that business case.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I think you have to show how it's all connected.
I see the root of storytelling and what publishers doing.
I mean our competitors too, just women's sports, Bleacher Report,
the athletic like everybody's doing great work. We have to
support this level of journalism and storytelling otherwise nothing else
really matters. And I also think in a world degenerative
AI and chat GPT, and we're all wondering what is
(26:51):
the future of the web page? Like is the web
page going to go the way the eight track is
set and just not be a thing anymore? Probably, you know,
it's just a matter of when what is our role
as publishers, And it's premium content, premium storytelling, investigative reporting,
well sourced journalism that bots and things like programmatic advertising
will never be able to replace. So there's a world
(27:13):
for all of it. But this role in this world,
it all really starts there because everything else is really
fueled from it.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
You know what strikes me too is we're talking about
a sport that has had such global dominance and yet
we're talking about it almost is still a fresh story
in the US, which maybe is ironic but here and
then you introduced, of course the inevitable generatively, I what's
it all mean? And we have to keep having that conversation.
(27:40):
And I think what you're saying is it's so fundamentally human,
it's so I mean it pulls on all the things
we love sports in general, frankly, and then, as you
said earlier, the uniqueness of being born into it and
that family affiliation and the cultural affiliation of underdogs and drama,
and you just how to tell those stories in a
(28:02):
way that then connects to why it matters for brands.
I think is going to be the not the next frontier,
because is the frontier's here, but how to blow that
out a little bit more is going to be super
interesting for us to watch.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
All Right, We're going to come right back and play
cooler cringe with you, Jason. Is that okay?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I'm excited for cooler crans? Wow, nervous. Let's go.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
And we're back and with Jason Wagenheim from Football Co
and we are ready to play our favorite cool or cringe. Marissa,
kick off the match.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
I'm going to kick off the match with an homage
to you, my friend and partner, and Jason, I think
you'll like this one. You like to say it's the
beautiful game of soccer. I've been taggling back and forth
in this episode saying football soccer, so calling it soccer
cooler cringe.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
What do you think, Jason, cool, we're in America, we
say soccer. We also say elevator and not lift.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Okay, boo, that's such a crie for me. I mean again,
you play the ball with your foot American football, what
is the deal? Well, that's a conversation for another pod.
We'll get to malice or someone from the NFL.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
What's my cooler crunch on that? I guess Jason, it's
soccer in the US for now.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
At least soccer. It's in America. Soccer. Okay, Steven, you
go again.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
There is an actual reason why it's called soccer because again, association.
I mean, it's it's a whole, you know, kind of
rationale why it's called that.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
It comes from the word association exactly soccer. That it
was called association football and it became soccer. Thank you
for that fun fact.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
For the day.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
So I got to ask, man, we just saw the
manager of the US men's national team get fired because
we could not even get out of the group stage.
Jason of Copamedica, which was so sad two years ahead
of the World Cup which will be on US soil.
So US men's national team cool or cringe?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
I'm going cool? Just because I'm a Patriot. But they
have a lot of work to do. They have a
lot of work to do. I got a root for
the home team, Steven.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I hear you, man, I'm cool, but we'd have a
lot of work to do before twenty six.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Getting rid of Burhalter was a big move and a
good one, but they have two years to get it together.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, Marissa, all right, I'm going to take this now
back to my own earlier parenting days, and we talked
about youth soccer, which you know, even raising our kids
in Manhattan huge. Both my daughters did play, albeit not
incredibly well, but they played. My husband, David coached, and
I was an ardent fan on the sideline. So here's
(30:45):
my cooler cringe. We had this thing called Silent Soccer
Days because parents had it basically shut up on the sideline,
which feels very New York, and I had trouble with it.
I like screaming from the sidelines.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
So just to be here, I'm a violator of that.
And that's in LA.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, that's no surprise.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
So okay, So as we think about parents playing role
of fans coaches and the poor kids on the field
or happy kids on the field, silent soccer on the
sidelines for youth soccer or cool or cringe.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Guys, cringe, cringe, cringe, cringe. Let them have their fun.
Let the kids can take it right. Just don't get
in the way and be annoying. Don't be annoying. Don't
be one of those parents.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
It is the thing. I mean, I'm over there like cheering,
you know, the kids on but like you see some
parents and again I am not this parent, but like
you see parents like yelling at their kids, like you know,
getting angry when they like miss a ball and like
the kid's nine, like let them have fun.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
That's cringe, or like yelling at other people's kids. Could
we agree that's cringe?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Oh yeah, that's like that's like next level cringe. Yeah, okay,
that might just be borderline asshole. Last one cool or
cringe my friend, and we'll give you a tough one.
Saudi Pro League.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Oh, I'm gonna maybe be a bit provocative and apolitical
and just stay cool because I think any soccer anywhere
around the world, I'm thinking more from an inclusivity standpoint.
It is the world's game and I wouldn't want to
deny any nation good bad or indifferent the opportunity to participate.
Soccer for all is my take.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Soccer for all, Football for all. Great answer. You know,
I feel like it's borderline cool slash criadge, just because
when you have Nation States paying all this money I
mean literally gobs of money I mean. And Leonel Messi,
to his credit, he was offered a fortune, but he
turned it down because he wanted to come to the
US and obviously invest build kind of football here. So well, hey,
(32:45):
that is the end of the match. We are out
of extra time. We did not have to go to penalties.
But thank you Jason for being with us. It is
so awesome and I just love having you as in
another ambassador for the beautiful game. Thank you for joining
MERSA and I.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Love you guys, and congrats on all the great work
you do. Thank you and thanks for the pot. Everybody
loves it and I love that you represent our business
so well.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
So thanks, thanks Jason, and now it's time for what's
on your mind? Marissa. I think this is a really
great question that I think you'll probably have lots to
say about it. Oh boy. This week our question comes
from an anonymous listener, so they did not share their name.
So we appreciate all questions anonymous or not. But here
(33:27):
is the question, for a brand without the marketing budget
of its competitors, what's the most important thing to focus on? Marissa?
Have you ever had budgets where your competitors were significantly
larger than yours?
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Oh? Yeah, often? Often? In fact, I do like playing
as an underdog. I always find that exciting, but it
can be really challenging on a budget level, because dollars
can talk in the marketplace, no question. So I definitely
appreciate this question, and I'm going to go to the
essence of it, was what's the most important thing to
(34:03):
focus on? Most important thing to focus on first is
strategy and goals, And I find often we get right
into execution. I get asked questions like this all the time, Well,
what's going to be your digital strategy? I'm like, oh,
wait a minute, Like, let's back up. Where are we
really trying to go? What are we really trying to do?
(34:24):
What game are we really playing? Is this about turning
around a perception? Is this about accelerating something that's already working?
Is this about winning over a new audience? And this
might sound really fundamental, I am consistently shocked with how
often the conversation needs to be redirected to start here.
And once you answer that question, then the budget question follows,
(34:47):
because the dollars need to follow the strategy. And I
do feel almost pedantic saying this, but it feels incredibly
important to answer the question this way because otherwise you
wind up down the same rabbit hole of execution. It's
going to be the same problem we've talked about about
trying to chase performance dollars. And last point I'll make
it i'll turn over to you is I have always
(35:08):
continued to be a believer in the value of earned
media as a way to punch above your weight class
when you don't have the biggest budget. Well, Taco Bell
when I was CMO there, I mean we had a
big budget, but not as big as McDonald's. So it's
all relative, and so doing things that aren't gratuitously getting
headlines but are strategic about growing towards an objective. I've
(35:31):
done this in big places, I've done this in smaller places.
So that's the other way is, how are you thinking
about stretching the impact of your voice in the marketplace?
And for that it really is thinking about paid but
also owned and earned. What's your thought.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
It's so funny because I love the whole way you
brought in earned. I mean, I'm a big believer in paid,
owned and earned really all working together. Me too, because
it has to be in concert. But I would zoom out,
and it's funny. I think there's a perception that all
these big brains have tons of big budgets, and the
truth is they don't.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
You're probably seeing that with a whole new perspective right
every day.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I mean I talk to all different types of brands,
I mean obviously all different types of categories, and I
think it's a real misperception because a lot of the
money that a brand has is actually tied up. I
mean when you think about brands that have major sponsorships,
I mean, obviously you did a lot of these deals, right,
whether it's NFL or you know, kind of FIFA rights
(36:27):
you know for World Cup or this or that, Like
those rights are usually tied up for like five, seven,
ten years sometimes, so they might have a very large budget,
but usually like maybe ninety percent of it, it's already allocated.
So the wiggle room that you have to really flex
to be opportunistic, you really don't have a lot. So
I think it's a perpetual thing, and especially in an
(36:49):
environment where there's increased efficiencies and you know, always, you know,
the CFO is looking for more margin, and so the
first place they're going to cut is going to be
in marketing. I feel like having the mindset of doing
more with less is paramount because you will continue to
see budgets come under pressure, but that doesn't mean that
you cannot find new ways to reach audiences. And so
(37:09):
I think the idea of working with paid, owned and earned,
and again you brought up earned, which I love and
again for you know, the listener that doesn't necessarily know
earned is everything where you know you are earning, the
media where you're getting someone writing about either what you've
done or they're writing about your brand, everything from the
New York Times to you know, having it mentioned in
a podcast, you know, maybe on iHeart everything in between
(37:32):
all the earned, having other folks talk about you, you know,
you have to earn that, that's right. But I think
the owned is probably the one that I've used strategically
the most. I think people really underestimate the power of
owned and owned. Yeah, so owned is basically your owned
media channels, right, So when you think about all the
different touch points that you as a brand get to control,
that is your website, that is your social handles, that
(37:55):
is maybe you know, content marketing that you're doing and
you're putting on you know, not just your blog, but
maybe you're posting it on LinkedIn. Like there's so many resources,
there's so many channels, and it comes back to the strategy,
which is who are you really trying to influence. Who
you're really trying to get this message to really see it,
to really you know, kind of interpret it, to really
do something with it, maybe even share it. But I
(38:17):
would always ask the question why do you care? And
why would you share? And I feel like if you
can't answer those two questions, you really got to go
back to the drawing board.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I love that you brought that phrase and I learned
it first in the early days of Facebook. And by
the way, that was a good takeaway from Facebook. It's
a great regrounding question to ask yourself and ask your team. Look,
budget matters because it's a noisy world out there, So
I don't want to be naive or understate the value
of being able to really compete to win with dollars.
(38:47):
But it's more than that, and it really involves clarity
of a point of view of where you're trying to
go and how you want to get there, and then trust,
which is the hard part. Sometimes in organizations be allowed
to supplement the hard working parts of the budget and
the parts that A Steven said, you said are already
locked up with taking some swings that might really pay off.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
But on the flip side, like if you look at
something and it's totally an extreme, but think about Tesla,
right they're notorious for not spending you know, hardly anything
in paid media. Right now, Again, you have someone like
Elon and obviously you know that character you know, gets
tons of you know, earned media, and so that is
one way that the brand could kind of be in
the zeitgeist. But I always love seeing the underdog to
your point of maybe it's World Cup or maybe it's
(39:31):
you know, kind of the Super Bowl or whatever it is,
and you see the folks that don't have the rights
really getting crafty, really getting innovative, and how do I
break through the clutter when I don't have those rights?
I feel like that's where some of the great creativity
and innovation actually comes through.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Well that's a perfect tea up for where we're going
on our next episode, when we're gonna be talking about
the Olympics and what it means for brands. But that's
it for today. Thanks for joining us, and please don't
forget to follow us if you aren't already at the
Brand New Podcast wherever you listen, so you can always
be in sync with us and connect with us on
(40:06):
our socials. We love hearing from you wherever you want
to reach out to us. Thanks again for joining us
and we'll see you next time on What's Brand New
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand New from
the iHeart Podcast Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa
Plbert and.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm Stephen Wolf Perida. Marissa, I'm in Miami. Welcome to Miami.
Bim Benilos, I'm Miami.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
And I'm going there next week. So you know, we
just didn't overlap this time, but it's so much better when.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We do, I know. But we're here in Miami for
a very special occasion because it is the finals of
Copa America and so by the time this drops, we
will know the winner of the Argentina versus Columbia match,
as well as the Spain versus England match in the
Euros in Germany. And obviously I'm trying to contain myself
because it is all things football all the time, and
(00:50):
it's finally like we get to really live the football experience.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Steven. We are letting you play out your favorite favorite
topic today. Happy for you, my friend. But you know
we wouldn't do it if it weren't genuinely important to
when we're thinking about what's brand new, the business of brands,
culture and how we play in that because whether you
(01:17):
want to call it soccer or whether you want to
call it football, and I know which way you lean.
It's here in the United States, So we're gonna be
talking a lot about that. At this moment of recording,
we don't know who will be the big winner of COPA,
but I will say my current hometown of Charlotte, North
Carolina had its own moment with this, had a huge moment,
big match here, huge MATCHA.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
With Columbia versus Odawai. You know, I got a little
messy at the end, But I feel like this is
where culture transcends borders, and specifically sports culture transcends borders,
and I think that is the moment that we're seeing.
I've had so many people ask about kind of trying
to understand football soccer, you know, explain to me the
one on one like why are people so passionate? But
I feel like there's so few things that truly bring
(02:00):
together communities, that brings fandom the way that this sport does.
And honestly, it's so bigger than we all understand. And
I'm on a mission, especially you know, with you know,
kind of youth sports in this country, to really make
sure that it doesn't kind of die out, peter out
by the time you get to high school, because that's
when you really see these things, you know, kind of
maybe go sideways, because that's when you know, maybe people
(02:22):
start to, you know, get more interested in American football
or NBA or baseball. But I really think that we're
at the stipping point. You know.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I often get asked what do I love about marketing?
What do I love being a marketer? And I've consistently
said that it's this intersection of three things, the combination
of business, human psychology, and the third leg of that
stool for me is culture. And what's interesting when you
think about what are the ten poles of culture, because
for me, the most fun and interesting thing is to
(02:52):
figure out how to connect brands into culture. Is we've
often thought about culture as a US export, particularly the
entertainment industry Hollywood. I mean, you know that is doesn't
mean that there isn't Bollywood and other forms of cinema
and TV creation. Of course, it's global, but it's a
uniquely US originated form of culture. Football is not a
(03:16):
US originated form of culture or specifically even in sports,
and yet it is here. And what makes it, I
think important is it so global and a lot of
the brands that we're talking to and about and working
for are global brands.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah. I mean, look, I feel so Patricka's culture drives behavior, right,
that's right when you think of kind of this perspective,
and you know, maybe we need to have another kind
of dedicated pod to culture through the business of brands.
Because you know, there was a very famous cover of
The Economists, which I'm an avid reader of, and it
was I think in twenty ten, and it had the
(03:53):
map of you know, kind of North and South America,
but it was inverted, so at the top was actually
Argentina and then you know you kind of went all
the way down and you know, the United States and
Canada was actually at the bottom of the map. And
it all depends on your perspective. And so to think
that kind of culture is coming and it's you know,
this huge expert from the US to the world. You know,
(04:15):
I feel like we're at this moment where it's so
fluid and we see it obviously, you know from a
Telbis gonna be young perspective, just you know, to see
how things are bilingual and bicultural. But when you see
you know, kind of the biggest you know, hits maybe
on Netflix being something like Squid Game out of Korea
or Money heightst out of Spain. Just understanding that it
is truly this global fluidity when it comes to culture
(04:37):
and to have, you know, kind of talent being discovered,
you know on all the streaming platforms, when you see
athletes and clubs. I mean the fact that you have
such fandom for the Premier League, which is obviously in England.
I mean I'm in La I'm waking up at four
in the morning with my son who is going to
be nine, and we are watching Arsenal at that time
(04:58):
because of that fandom. So this is truly global.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Oh, I know, I know, listen. I mean you and
I haven't talked so much about this. I grew up
my dad was a sports reporter before he became a lawyer,
and at the end of his way too prematurely cut
off life, he kind of went back to that sports
are such a part of my growing up. It was
such a part of how I connected with my dad.
(05:26):
Back when the Mets played at Shaye Stadium, not City Field.
Remember we had box seats, even when the Mets were terrible.
I went to Brown and it wasn't like a bastion
of college sports. And even so my dad knew like
all the stats of all the football players, a brown
wasn't slightly embarrassing. But anyway, it's true. I mean, it
is such a connective tissue of family.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Oh wait, I love the fact that you and your
dad connected with sports. I have to work on that
with my daughter Sienna. We're not there yet because every
time we put on a football match, you know, she's like, Okay,
I'm going to go do something else.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
What girls play sports and girls love sports? Right, Fandom
isn't a guy thing either. We've got to correct that perception.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Absolutely. I'm trying to get her into it, right, But
we did a aysl and she just didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, we had that in my family too, and David
coached both teams. Went okay, good stories to share on that,
but yeah, no, we still love watching it as a family,
even if like he's the more rabbit sports fan like
you are, the more rabid sports fan. But we do
love it, and I think again it comes to sort
of the role of sports and culture, and it's kind
of fun that as a result of that, it's big
(06:28):
summer for sports and not in the only US way,
but in the global way. So we're going to make
this a little bit of a two parter hot topic.
We're going to be talking today about football. Had I
do there?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Good?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Okay? That was good for a dear friend, Jason wagon High. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
With our dear friend Jason Waggon the next episode, we
are at the precipice of the Summer Olympic Games, which
are about to happen in Paris, and we're going to
have a very special guest to be kind of talking
about that through the lens of Brand New.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And we're back and on the cusp of not one
but two football or soccer finals that just happened, the
Euros in Germany and Copamerica here in the States in Miami.
We thought it was a real gone to get the
North American CEO of Football Co, the one and only
Jason Wagenheim. Welcome to Brand New.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Jason, great to be here, first time guest, very long
time listener. You guys do such a great job. I
was honored to get the call off the bench, off
the pitch.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Well.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
I think Stephen has been waiting for this moment to
say goal. But related to the topic at hand, but
we're both really excited to have you, And I think
what's so cool, Jason is we've all been industry friends
and grown up in this business in our different incarnations
for a while, and so thought it would be interesting.
I'll kick it off if that's okay with talking about
(07:52):
what your own progression means and what we can kind
of parse from it in terms of where brand's business
are going, because I mean I think, like we go
back all the way to your teen bogued Gays, if
not earlier, and then you went more and sort of
the digital media publishing side with Bustle, but now here
you are placing, frankly, your own big bet on not
(08:15):
just sports but football soccer, and like, break that down
for us a little bit in terms of your own
decision making and what you think that means in terms
of where American media is going. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I've been telling everybody Marissa that I've I've jumped out
of Mabeline and into Sambas and brought in my idea
to Sambas. It's been pretty awesome, you know, twenty five
year career at places like Condi, Nas Teen, Vogue, Glamour,
Vanity Fair, others, and then the last seven years of
bustle digital groups. So I've always been in like the
women's lifestyle side of things right, and sport always felt
like a almost like a foreign land to me. I
(08:48):
was actually growing up in the business just super jealous
of all the big rights deals that were done in
the sponsorships and just the hundreds of millions of dollars
that was always thrown at the sports category while we
were out scrounging around for our you know, fifteen one
hundred thousand dollars deals in lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
But it's been a.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Really awesome jump. A lot of the skill set of
really great packaging and creating ten polls and creating urgency
around content, all the things that publishers in any category
have done really well since the dawn of time translates
really well into sport. So I actually think I kind
of got the job because I didn't come out of
a traditional sports background, and I think with what we're
(09:23):
looking to launch and build here in the US with
gold dot Com, which is our flagship and Indivisa, which
is our women's brand, is a lot of what the
women's lifestyle category invented a century ago, and it translates
really well because great storytelling matters in every single category,
and marketers and brand executives are at the root of
(09:43):
telling good stories as well. So how do we marry
those things up? But just do it through the lens
of sport and specifically soccer.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I that's so interesting though, because soccer does feel like
it's finally having its moment or has been having its moment.
I mean, if you ask Steven, I know you're going
to say, it's always at its moment in the US,
it has.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
It's always had its moment where it's again, the US
is just late to the game. You know, this is
the beautiful game the world sport. But double click on
the business of sport. I mean, yeah, honestly, Jason, I
feel that sports is really the only thing that really
is working in media, if you're really being honest, it's
what really convenes, you know, whether it's Super Bowl, NBA Finals,
(10:24):
but obviously things like the euros Copamaerica and then in
two years the World Cup. Just help me understand, you know,
kind of the power of sports fandom and why do
you think it's just so relevant for brands today.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah, look, I mean at the center of fandom is
really community and the veracity of the passion that fans
have for their teams and their clubs. I mean there's
USL clubs that get five or ten thousand people out
for games. These are rabid fans. They're in places like
in Providence, Whode Islands, you know, where they don't have
a professional team in their backyard. So in a lot
of ways, you know, sport in particular, if you got
(10:57):
the NFL or an NBA or an MLB team, if
you're that lucky in a major market like great, but
the rest of the country you know, doesn't necessarily have
some of the pro sports. So even the B team
sports or leagues go really far for encouraging that fandom
and community. And I think sports just generally speaking, is
just such an awesome lens for marketers to connect through
because that fandom and that loyalty that fans have for
(11:19):
their clubs. I mean, they are born Argentina fans, they
are born Arsenal fans, you know, they are born LAFC fans,
whatever it might be. Fans of the Mexican national team.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Hit by three clubs, my three teams, So thank you
for that. There you go.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
I do that on purpose. There are sixty million fans
of the Mexican national team living in America, and they
are born into that. It is a birthright. And when
you think about what brand marketers, what their number one
objective is is to create that same kind of loyalty.
And I go back, you know, to my days in
the University of South Carolina, you know, go game cops.
(11:52):
I dated girls in college. They were typically usually named
Ashley because they were Southern bells.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
But they hey, wait a second, I'm going to have
a unc. You go about a month. So, but she's
not named Ashley, She's not na enough.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
They only ever used Tide because that was Whoever Dale
Earnhardt's NASCAR sponsorship, or they only ever ate cheerios because
it was whoever like NASCAR. Doc, That's the kind of
loyalty that really connects, and sport is an awesome magnet
to do that or connector.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
How is it different do you think that fandom? And
then what the implications are for brands with football with soccer.
I'm going to say in the US versus American football, basketball, baseball,
because I mean those have been the American pastimes right totally.
I'm curious what's different, what's the same.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
What I've loved most about really becoming a student of
the sport. And you know, I'm six months into this.
I played growing up. I followed it casually, the professional
game and mostly the elite clubs you know, around the world,
not like Steven who was probably born into it, you know,
with his Latino background. But I think the difference really
exists in the tribe and the different pockets of fandom
(13:02):
that come with soccer. So you've got the Hispanic fans,
which make up a massive, massive percentage. You've got women
who are following the women's game and men who are
following the women's game. Are us women actually win and
do really well in tournaments. I'm like our men right now.
There'll be some good changes I think made there.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Women.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
You've got the Anglo files who are waking up first
thing in the morning on Saturday to watch Peacock at
seven in the morning and follow the Premier League and
some of the elite leagues overseas. And then you have
the fans, which is growing really quickly, the fans of
the American game like MLS and USL and the National
Women's Soccer League. I mean, we're really building soccer communities
here in America, and you've got many, many pockets of
fandom all connected through this global sport soccer. Football is
(13:42):
the largest sport globally, hands down. For context, one point
five billion people watch the World Cup in twenty twenty
two worldwide, one hundred and fifty million watch the Super Bowl.
It's ten x the size of what viewership is for
the Super Bowl. We're never going to be bigger than
the NFL here, We're never going to be bigger than
you know, American football, but it's making a lot of
(14:04):
headway and that the type of fandom is really again
something you're born into, which I think is a big difference.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
I love hearing Jason share these stats because I don't
have to a be It's it's so refreshing and rewarding
to actually see you be the student of the beautiful
game listeners.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Know.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I'm a proud dad. I have my six year old daughter,
but my next week nine year old now son Sabathian
who obviously plays club football. And you know, I'm curious
when you think of all the different audiences, when you
think about you know, kind of demographics, psychographics, I just remember,
you know, kind of an election year, it was all
(14:44):
about the soccer moms and everyone was really like discovering
this audience and how it was the key you know,
voting block. But when you think about just kind of
soccer as it develops in youth and it's very much
pay to play in this country versus other countries where
it really is and it's all based on your talent,
where do you think it breaks down? Because I feel
like you think about the trajector. I think part of
(15:05):
the issue why it hasn't taken off in this country
to the extent that has globally one there's just so
much competition, you know, because there's NFL, NBA and MLB
and everything else. But I also think there is a
lack of really seeing stars, like where's our Lebron seeing
that level of superstars? And then where do you think
the competition really starts to creep in? You know, is
(15:27):
it at the high school level? Like why don't we
see it really continuing to kind of evolve and get
the popularity.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
It's a great question, and it's actually a question I've
been asked often in the last six months in this gig.
I think, first to start, it is catching on and
the moment is now. And anybody that says, why hasn't
soccer came on in America yet, Well it has. It's
a five year old, maybe ten year old myth. Now,
when you look at all the stats around the investment
being made from broadcasters, Apple did a two and a
half billion dollar ten year deal to carry MLS, pass,
(15:56):
CBS and ESPN and Amazon all combined with Scripts to
do a two hundred forty million dollars broadcast deal for
NWSL rights, largest broadcast rights deal ever done for any
women's sport globally around the world last year. Right, when
you look at attendance at matches and WSL just hit
one million attendees midway through the season. Last year they
had one point two million attendees for the entire season,
(16:18):
So we'll probably hit the two million market.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Just for the casual listener that might not know NWSL is.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
The National Women's Soccer League. There you go. When I
look at all the stats and I look at viewership,
I look at salaries, I look at some of the
prices that are being paid for transfers in the National
Women's Soccer League in particular, all the stats say that
soccer is here and it is catching on. It's typically
tied with hockey now for like the number four sport
in America, but soccer's made a lot of headways. So
(16:44):
the moment is now. I look at all the investment
being made from sponsorship. So Marissa, you know, we talked
about this before we got on. If you just check
every box on like what makes something successful, like soccer's arrived,
it's here, so like it's no more, why hasn't it?
It's okay, what's next? And that's all really great, And
again part of the reason I even took the job.
I really saw that opportunity. But the answer to your question, Stephen,
is really about the money. Like the best stars like
(17:06):
Christian Polisic, who's a fantastic you know forward, he plays
for ac Milan. He's an American playing in Syria, the
Professional League of Italy, if you will, And you know,
keeping these stars here really just takes a lot of money.
And then it's the talent front. You're right, like the
whole club soccer thing in America is a very broken system,
(17:27):
and it costs a lot of money for parents to
be able to afford the gear and the uniforms, but
also all the stays at the spring Hill suites and
the gas money to travel hundreds of miles to play soccer.
That's a barrier that doesn't exist in other places around
the world. So we have to do a better job
of making soccer accessible to communities and underserved communities in particular,
where a lot of the talent can be found. And
(17:48):
then we have to figure out how to nurture those
players inside of America through an academy system like they
have in other countries, and we have that here and
are starting to develop that more. And then you know,
figure out how to continue to get the broadcasters and
the sponsors interested enough in soccer to continue to pump
hundreds of millions of dollars into it so we can
keep Christian Polisic here in America. And MLS just you know,
(18:11):
can't be that's Major League Soccer. The Major League Soccer
League can't just be a place where players like Leonel
Messi or David Beckham or Luis Suarez come at the
end of their career because they were paid a bunch
of money to do. So we've got to have the
homegrown talent and the ability to develop our youth and
participation levels. So they stay here.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
That makes a lot of sense in that when you
think about what are the core fundamentals of American sports fandom,
it's that we have these homegrown heroes. And of course,
even saying that is a little bit of a myth.
I mean, look at baseball, vast majority of some superstar
players are coming from places like the Dominican Republic. So
it's I mean, what does homegrown even mean? But it
(18:51):
feel if not truly homegrown, but if it feels American,
feels American, that's it.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah. But forty percent of all baseball players are now
email right, which is just a staggering stat right, Right,
But they play here versus you know, maybe Japan and
like some pockets around the world, but like baseball is
played in the US, right, NFL.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Same with basketball and certainly NFL.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Right. But your point, Jason, you know, soccer people are
going to go to where they are going to get
paid and valued, and obviously you know it's predominantly Europe.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, okay, so then let's take this to brands, right,
Because your point, which I think is an important point
to drive, it's not when is it arriving. It's arrived.
But then there are still these sort of differences in
perception the stardom piece. So and you're out selling this
as media, Now, what are the best ways for brands
(19:43):
to participate? Is it just about being on the jersey
and the jersey so unique? But what else?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
What are you seeing?
Speaker 1 (19:49):
What's the future going to look like in this regard?
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, it's actually it's a perfect question and a segue
that that's of what we were just talking about. I
think it's all this big ecosystem of content and storytelling
and sponsorship and rights and audience and engagement. And if
you think about it, like we've already proven and just
talked about how the growth trajectory of soccer in America,
it's arrived at a really incredible point over the last
(20:13):
decade in particular, and we're at this critical inflection point now.
The next phase is really around the storytelling piece. So
what stories are we telling that frankly aren't about Lionel
Messi or you know, some highlight from the pitch last
night in some match. What stories are we telling that
make the sport really interesting and accessible for the casual
fans so they become very interested in watching a match
(20:35):
and getting to the stadium or tuning in or getting
an Amazon Prime subscription so they can watch NWSL or
buy or you know, sign up for an account with
the Ally Bank, let's say. And that really starts with
what publishers have done really well forever, which is really
great storytelling. You know, I've been talking about this Kelsey
and Taylor Swiss relationship has done for the NFL. You know,
(20:57):
all jokes aside, whatever you want to say about that.
Taylor Swift made American football really really interesting for a
lot of nine year old girls. And that was a
crossover sort of moment that made something accessible to people
who otherwise might not have entered the sport. And I
think we can find those moments that are similar. There's
(21:17):
lifestyle beats around fashion, music, culture, food, travel. We can
tell all those stories, but use soccer as a backdrop
to make the game interesting. And I'll use a great example.
Soccer is interesting in America because Lionel Messi arrived here.
He's the goat, He's the greatest player of all time
by miles and him playing for Inter Miami has opened
(21:38):
up the American soccer appetite more than it ever has before.
But there's another thing that happened too. It's Welcome to
Wrexham with what Ryan Reynolds and Rob McAlhaney have done
with that series. When I arrived at Goal in January,
our top ten stories every month were one of two things.
It was a Lionel Messi story or it was a
Welcome to Wrexham story. Absolutely, that's not about what happens
on the pitch with Wrexham. It's really great, good old
(22:01):
fashioned storytelling dudge that made people access and enter the game.
And Wrexham, which is this total B division team playing
for the English Football League and.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Not even B Division. That's like like literally if you
have like major leagues, minor leagues, little league, this is
like t ball, you know, junior little league. Yes, it
literally is like the fourth division in the English football system.
And the fact that they bought this, you know, for
like maybe like two million dollars or something and it's
been promoted, I mean, it is an incredible success story.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It sounds like ted Lasso to me talking about crossover culture.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
By the way, Ted, it's another great example Marisa ted
Lasso has made soccer really interesting. It's part of the formula,
you know, storytelling is part of this formula that has
accelerated the interest in soccer and enthusiasm forward here.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
So, so a couple of takeaways I'm getting here is one,
you know, I guess you know, Shakira just performed, you know,
at the halftime at Copamerica. So maybe we have to
get some type of romance thing going to get the
Taylor Swift equivalent, you know, maybe with her, you know too,
you know you're talking about like all these clubs. I mean,
what a lot of folks don't know is that the
most popular league in the United States is actually not MLS.
(23:07):
It's the Mexican League Liga MX. And I mean that
blows people's minds, right. I think the third thing, when
you talk about like brands and storytelling, one of the
things that I'll pokemon have fun at My wife, Nodia.
She always is making fun of me because whenever I'm
wearing a jersey, whether it's you know, Arsenal in the
Premier League or Real Madrid or even LAFC, the team
(23:29):
is actually the logo of the team is so small
relative to the sponsor, which is just you know, plastered
on the front of your chest. So for Arsenal and
Real Madrid, it's the Emirates Airlines, so it says fly Emirates.
So Noria is always like, oh yeah, so are you
supporting Emirates today? Are Emirates playing today? And I don't
know of any other sport that actually has the logo
(23:49):
of the brand bigger than the club. I mean, is
that an interesting? Is that, like, you know, controversial? I mean,
do you view that as you know, kind of a
key launching pad for the storytelling?
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Jason, Jason, you answer that too. I mean, this is
what first of all, everyone should know. This is the audio.
Steven is always wearing a jersey, and you're repping today too,
So I feel silly that I didn't put a jersey
on myself.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Well, we're getting a special branded jersey for you, Morison.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
You both look good.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
I had to show up in my Argentina jersey for Steven.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Oh, thank you, a brand new jersey.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I think the jersey question is really interesting. That's why
I tipped at it a little before. But then also
like what else in terms of where the state of
brands and soccer is today in the US, Like, what
are you thinking are the right ways to play?
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Yeah? It goes back to this whole circle of this
or funnel, whatever we want to call it, of what
brands shouldn't be doing is just logo slaps on jerseys
signed at a stadium, and hospitality for twenty of their
executives at a match. Like sure, those things aren't unimportant.
Commercials on Univision are certainly very very important because Sebastian
needs to eat.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
But those are table sticks.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
I really do encourage, and we're seeing more marketers do
this is deputize players athletes to tell stories. And I'm
not just talking about the Messis or the Beckhams of
the world, or the top players in Europe. I'm talking
about the women who are playing in the National Women's
Soccer League as a side hustle because they only make
sixty thousand dollars a year. There's a woman, Michelle and Lotzi.
She plays for the Houston and WSL team. Her day
(25:21):
job is a research medical tech at Houston's Children's Hospital.
She moonlights as a professional soccer player. So we've done
some more to tell her story. You know, we need
to continue to use storytelling to make the players and
the fan communities and the leagues and the clubs in
America more interesting, and brands can help fund that work
and they can benefit from the beautiful side effect that
(25:44):
comes with that is the loyalty that they'll build with
fan communities for their own brands. And once we start
to tell those stories and prop up these underserved teams
in communities and athletes, the money will follow. Sponsorship dollars
will follow, the broadcast rights will follow, Stadium attendance will
be lifted up. It's all related, and it all starts
with storytelling, good old fashioned upper funnel storytelling to drive
(26:07):
people down the funnel, to convert to a fan or
a viewer or a subscriber.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
A dais And we're living in a world of this
is a pet pee for both MERRISA and I. Upper
funnel versus lower funnel, brand versus performance. Again, somehow brand
doesn't need performance. But when you talk about all this
upper funnel awareness stuff, when folks are so obsessed with
dr and lower funnel performance, how do you kind of
make that business case.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I think you have to show how it's all connected.
I see the root of storytelling and what publishers doing.
I mean our competitors too, just women's sports, Bleacher Report,
the athletic like everybody's doing great work. We have to
support this level of journalism and storytelling otherwise nothing else
really matters. And I also think in a world degenerative
AI and chat GPT, and we're all wondering what is
(26:51):
the future of the web page? Like is the web
page going to go the way the eight track is
set and just not be a thing anymore? Probably, you know,
it's just a matter of when what is our role
as publishers, And it's premium content, premium storytelling, investigative reporting,
well sourced journalism that bots and things like programmatic advertising
will never be able to replace. So there's a world
(27:13):
for all of it. But this role in this world,
it all really starts there because everything else is really
fueled from it.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
You know what strikes me too is we're talking about
a sport that has had such global dominance and yet
we're talking about it almost is still a fresh story
in the US, which maybe is ironic but here and
then you introduced, of course the inevitable generatively, I what's
it all mean? And we have to keep having that conversation.
(27:40):
And I think what you're saying is it's so fundamentally human,
it's so I mean it pulls on all the things
we love sports in general, frankly, and then, as you
said earlier, the uniqueness of being born into it and
that family affiliation and the cultural affiliation of underdogs and drama,
and you just how to tell those stories in a
(28:02):
way that then connects to why it matters for brands.
I think is going to be the not the next frontier,
because is the frontier's here, but how to blow that
out a little bit more is going to be super
interesting for us to watch.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
All Right, We're going to come right back and play
cooler cringe with you, Jason. Is that okay?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I'm excited for cooler crans? Wow, nervous. Let's go.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
And we're back and with Jason Wagenheim from Football Co
and we are ready to play our favorite cool or cringe. Marissa,
kick off the match.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
I'm going to kick off the match with an homage
to you, my friend and partner, and Jason, I think
you'll like this one. You like to say it's the
beautiful game of soccer. I've been taggling back and forth
in this episode saying football soccer, so calling it soccer
cooler cringe.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
What do you think, Jason, cool, we're in America, we
say soccer. We also say elevator and not lift.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Okay, boo, that's such a crie for me. I mean again,
you play the ball with your foot American football, what
is the deal? Well, that's a conversation for another pod.
We'll get to malice or someone from the NFL.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
What's my cooler crunch on that? I guess Jason, it's
soccer in the US for now.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
At least soccer. It's in America. Soccer. Okay, Steven, you
go again.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
There is an actual reason why it's called soccer because again, association.
I mean, it's it's a whole, you know, kind of
rationale why it's called that.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
It comes from the word association exactly soccer. That it
was called association football and it became soccer. Thank you
for that fun fact.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
For the day.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
So I got to ask, man, we just saw the
manager of the US men's national team get fired because
we could not even get out of the group stage.
Jason of Copamedica, which was so sad two years ahead
of the World Cup which will be on US soil.
So US men's national team cool or cringe?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
I'm going cool? Just because I'm a Patriot. But they
have a lot of work to do. They have a
lot of work to do. I got a root for
the home team, Steven.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I hear you, man, I'm cool, but we'd have a
lot of work to do before twenty six.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Getting rid of Burhalter was a big move and a
good one, but they have two years to get it together.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yeah, Marissa, all right, I'm going to take this now
back to my own earlier parenting days, and we talked
about youth soccer, which you know, even raising our kids
in Manhattan huge. Both my daughters did play, albeit not
incredibly well, but they played. My husband, David coached, and
I was an ardent fan on the sideline. So here's
(30:45):
my cooler cringe. We had this thing called Silent Soccer
Days because parents had it basically shut up on the sideline,
which feels very New York, and I had trouble with it.
I like screaming from the sidelines.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
So just to be here, I'm a violator of that.
And that's in LA.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, that's no surprise.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
So okay, So as we think about parents playing role
of fans coaches and the poor kids on the field
or happy kids on the field, silent soccer on the
sidelines for youth soccer or cool or cringe.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Guys, cringe, cringe, cringe, cringe. Let them have their fun.
Let the kids can take it right. Just don't get
in the way and be annoying. Don't be annoying. Don't
be one of those parents.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
It is the thing. I mean, I'm over there like cheering,
you know, the kids on but like you see some
parents and again I am not this parent, but like
you see parents like yelling at their kids, like you know,
getting angry when they like miss a ball and like
the kid's nine, like let them have fun.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
That's cringe, or like yelling at other people's kids. Could
we agree that's cringe?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Oh yeah, that's like that's like next level cringe. Yeah, okay,
that might just be borderline asshole. Last one cool or
cringe my friend, and we'll give you a tough one.
Saudi Pro League.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Oh, I'm gonna maybe be a bit provocative and apolitical
and just stay cool because I think any soccer anywhere
around the world, I'm thinking more from an inclusivity standpoint.
It is the world's game and I wouldn't want to
deny any nation good bad or indifferent the opportunity to participate.
Soccer for all is my take.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Soccer for all, Football for all. Great answer. You know,
I feel like it's borderline cool slash criadge, just because
when you have Nation States paying all this money I
mean literally gobs of money I mean. And Leonel Messi,
to his credit, he was offered a fortune, but he
turned it down because he wanted to come to the
US and obviously invest build kind of football here. So well, hey,
(32:45):
that is the end of the match. We are out
of extra time. We did not have to go to penalties.
But thank you Jason for being with us. It is
so awesome and I just love having you as in
another ambassador for the beautiful game. Thank you for joining
MERSA and I.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Love you guys, and congrats on all the great work
you do. Thank you and thanks for the pot. Everybody
loves it and I love that you represent our business
so well.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
So thanks, thanks Jason, and now it's time for what's
on your mind? Marissa. I think this is a really
great question that I think you'll probably have lots to
say about it. Oh boy. This week our question comes
from an anonymous listener, so they did not share their name.
So we appreciate all questions anonymous or not. But here
(33:27):
is the question, for a brand without the marketing budget
of its competitors, what's the most important thing to focus on? Marissa?
Have you ever had budgets where your competitors were significantly
larger than yours?
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Oh? Yeah, often? Often? In fact, I do like playing
as an underdog. I always find that exciting, but it
can be really challenging on a budget level, because dollars
can talk in the marketplace, no question. So I definitely
appreciate this question, and I'm going to go to the
essence of it, was what's the most important thing to
(34:03):
focus on? Most important thing to focus on first is
strategy and goals, And I find often we get right
into execution. I get asked questions like this all the time, Well,
what's going to be your digital strategy? I'm like, oh,
wait a minute, Like, let's back up. Where are we
really trying to go? What are we really trying to do?
(34:24):
What game are we really playing? Is this about turning
around a perception? Is this about accelerating something that's already working?
Is this about winning over a new audience? And this
might sound really fundamental, I am consistently shocked with how
often the conversation needs to be redirected to start here.
And once you answer that question, then the budget question follows,
(34:47):
because the dollars need to follow the strategy. And I
do feel almost pedantic saying this, but it feels incredibly
important to answer the question this way because otherwise you
wind up down the same rabbit hole of execution. It's
going to be the same problem we've talked about about
trying to chase performance dollars. And last point I'll make
it i'll turn over to you is I have always
(35:08):
continued to be a believer in the value of earned
media as a way to punch above your weight class
when you don't have the biggest budget. Well, Taco Bell
when I was CMO there, I mean we had a
big budget, but not as big as McDonald's. So it's
all relative, and so doing things that aren't gratuitously getting
headlines but are strategic about growing towards an objective. I've
(35:31):
done this in big places, I've done this in smaller places.
So that's the other way is, how are you thinking
about stretching the impact of your voice in the marketplace?
And for that it really is thinking about paid but
also owned and earned. What's your thought.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
It's so funny because I love the whole way you
brought in earned. I mean, I'm a big believer in paid,
owned and earned really all working together. Me too, because
it has to be in concert. But I would zoom out,
and it's funny. I think there's a perception that all
these big brains have tons of big budgets, and the
truth is they don't.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
You're probably seeing that with a whole new perspective right
every day.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I mean I talk to all different types of brands,
I mean obviously all different types of categories, and I
think it's a real misperception because a lot of the
money that a brand has is actually tied up. I
mean when you think about brands that have major sponsorships,
I mean, obviously you did a lot of these deals, right,
whether it's NFL or you know, kind of FIFA rights
(36:27):
you know for World Cup or this or that, Like
those rights are usually tied up for like five, seven,
ten years sometimes, so they might have a very large budget,
but usually like maybe ninety percent of it, it's already allocated.
So the wiggle room that you have to really flex
to be opportunistic, you really don't have a lot. So
I think it's a perpetual thing, and especially in an
(36:49):
environment where there's increased efficiencies and you know, always, you know,
the CFO is looking for more margin, and so the
first place they're going to cut is going to be
in marketing. I feel like having the mindset of doing
more with less is paramount because you will continue to
see budgets come under pressure, but that doesn't mean that
you cannot find new ways to reach audiences. And so
(37:09):
I think the idea of working with paid, owned and earned,
and again you brought up earned, which I love and
again for you know, the listener that doesn't necessarily know
earned is everything where you know you are earning, the
media where you're getting someone writing about either what you've
done or they're writing about your brand, everything from the
New York Times to you know, having it mentioned in
a podcast, you know, maybe on iHeart everything in between
(37:32):
all the earned, having other folks talk about you, you know,
you have to earn that, that's right. But I think
the owned is probably the one that I've used strategically
the most. I think people really underestimate the power of
owned and owned. Yeah, so owned is basically your owned
media channels, right, So when you think about all the
different touch points that you as a brand get to control,
that is your website, that is your social handles, that
(37:55):
is maybe you know, content marketing that you're doing and
you're putting on you know, not just your blog, but
maybe you're posting it on LinkedIn. Like there's so many resources,
there's so many channels, and it comes back to the strategy,
which is who are you really trying to influence. Who
you're really trying to get this message to really see it,
to really you know, kind of interpret it, to really
do something with it, maybe even share it. But I
(38:17):
would always ask the question why do you care? And
why would you share? And I feel like if you
can't answer those two questions, you really got to go
back to the drawing board.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I love that you brought that phrase and I learned
it first in the early days of Facebook. And by
the way, that was a good takeaway from Facebook. It's
a great regrounding question to ask yourself and ask your team. Look,
budget matters because it's a noisy world out there, So
I don't want to be naive or understate the value
of being able to really compete to win with dollars.
(38:47):
But it's more than that, and it really involves clarity
of a point of view of where you're trying to
go and how you want to get there, and then trust,
which is the hard part. Sometimes in organizations be allowed
to supplement the hard working parts of the budget and
the parts that A Steven said, you said are already
locked up with taking some swings that might really pay off.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
But on the flip side, like if you look at
something and it's totally an extreme, but think about Tesla,
right they're notorious for not spending you know, hardly anything
in paid media. Right now, Again, you have someone like
Elon and obviously you know that character you know, gets
tons of you know, earned media, and so that is
one way that the brand could kind of be in
the zeitgeist. But I always love seeing the underdog to
your point of maybe it's World Cup or maybe it's
(39:31):
you know, kind of the Super Bowl or whatever it is,
and you see the folks that don't have the rights
really getting crafty, really getting innovative, and how do I
break through the clutter when I don't have those rights?
I feel like that's where some of the great creativity
and innovation actually comes through.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Well that's a perfect tea up for where we're going
on our next episode, when we're gonna be talking about
the Olympics and what it means for brands. But that's
it for today. Thanks for joining us, and please don't
forget to follow us if you aren't already at the
Brand New Podcast wherever you listen, so you can always
be in sync with us and connect with us on
(40:06):
our socials. We love hearing from you wherever you want
to reach out to us. Thanks again for joining us
and we'll see you next time on What's Brand New
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