June 13, 2026 • 28 mins
Kamal Johnson is a former mayor of Hudson, New York, community leader, and youth advocate.
Raised in Hudson and elected as the city’s youngest mayor, and first African American to hold the position. Kamal built a reputation for leading with honesty about issues many public officials avoid discussing openly — trauma, violence, poverty, mental health, generational survival, and what it means to try to heal while carrying the weight of leadership.
Before serving as mayor, he worked for years in youth development, mental health, and community outreach, supporting young people and families navigating many of the same challenges he experienced growing up. His work has focused on violence prevention, youth empowerment, economic equity, housing, education, and creating systems that actually see people instead of just managing them.
In the second half of the conversation, we discuss many of the programs he launched during his tenure that were youth-focused, and the impact those had on the community. We end the conversation discussing socialism’s place in the U.S. and he shares his thoughts on Mamdani and other elected officials.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Keep on riding with it, says, we continue to broadcast
the balance and defend the discourse from the Hip Hop
Weekly Studios. Welcome back to Civic Cipher. I'm your host,
Ramsa's Joah.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
He is Ramsy's Joh. I am q Ward. You are
tuned into Civic signe.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Indeed, and for those of you out in the real
world who are not happy with the way things are
going and feel like you can make a difference, I
think today's conversation might inspire you, so be sure to
buckle up and continued rib with us. As I mentioned,
because I'm learning a lot. I know q'es learning a lot,
(00:31):
and our hope is that you will learn a lot
as well. So yeah, let's get back to it. Kamal
Johnson is a former mayor of Hudson, New York, community
leader and youth advocate, and he is our guest today.
We're in the middle of a conversation talking about many things,
and let's pick it up where I left off. Okay,
(00:54):
so you went or sorry. The city went through major
conversations around houses, policing, equity, and development during your administration,
so talk to us about how you led everyone through
all that conflict. I'm sure there's a lot of back
and forth, and those are a lot of issues that
are real hot button issues, especially now, but you know
(01:15):
they were certainly at the time as well. So I
recognize that everybody thinks that they have the best idea,
everybody thinks that their beliefs are the right ones and
going to work. So you know, how do you manage
that and get I mean, I guess you don't really
manage it. You just kind of make a decision, but
(01:36):
you know, talk us through it, because that's got to
be tough.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, I mean, it was difficult, and there was no
kind of blueprint on going to deal with COVID, how
to deal with so much civil unrests and emotions of
the community. So for me, it was we were just
trying things. You know, I was staying true to myself.
I was listening to the people, and a lot of
(02:01):
the people wanted to be heard and they wanted their
elected officials to give them some kind of relief and answers.
I want to say after George Floyd's death was probably
the scariest time of me as being a new mayor.
We had a lot of people in the community that
wanted to get together. I wanted to talk. I wanted
(02:24):
to rally, and a lot of cities were dealing with,
you know, people looting and reading, and you had all
these people that had nothing to do with the movements
now coming into cities to you know, agitate and do
things like that. So for me, I wanted to get
my entire community out in front of me, and I
(02:45):
wanted to hear from them, and I wanted to bring
up speakers who you know, are in this work, and
I wanted them to know that and trust that my
administration was with them. You know, we're going to stand
tall through all of this and we're going to actually
make changes in our community. And people, you know, immediately
criticized me that doesn't happen here, that you know, it's
(03:06):
not what goes on here. And I'm like, well, we're
being proactive, because every other place felt that way too
until it happened. So a big rally, you know, I
wanted people to be six feet away from each other,
so we put markers literally in the road. And this
(03:26):
is in the midst of COVID as well. So we
got everybody out there and people were blowing my phone up.
They were like this is big mistake. You know, this
is going to go bad, Like this is going to
be a stain on you. And when I woke up
that morning of the day of the protest, that said,
(03:47):
I'm either going to be the smartest person on the
street or I'm going to be the dumbest if it
goes bad. And we went up there and we shared
our personal thoughts and a human inside of what's going on,
and we talked to the public and I said to them,
I said, listen, if you trust me as your leader
(04:09):
in the mayor of this city, I'm not going to
put in a curfew, but I will say at eight
o'clock tonight, go home. If you don't have anything that
you need to do that's essential in the streets or
anything like that, go home. If you want me this
moment to mean something and you and you felt heard today,
(04:31):
go home at eight o'clock. And at eight o five,
I drove around the entire city and it was like
a ghost town and I literally got goosebumps where I
was like, this is what it's all about. Like I
didn't have to program, I didn't have to create an
initiative or anything. People just wanted to be heard and
(04:53):
to know that there's gonna be things that are going
to be happening in the future. And I went home
and I just it was just it felt good.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's crazy because a lot of
people lose sight of the fact that most people are
decent folks and you know, they don't really need a
whole lot of this, and that it's you know, sure
there are bad actors. You know, I mentioned earlier that
a root cause of a lot of the crime found
(05:27):
in black communities is poverty. So if you address poverty,
get people, uh you know, a better economic base, uh again, childcare,
after school programs, you know, uh, transportation, obviously, opportunities, right,
you know, you change the material reality of those folks.
(05:48):
But that's not to say that all of you know,
the crime goes away. It's just the majority of it
goes away. There are definitely bad actors, and so recognizing
that most people are decent folks and approaching communities as
though most folks are decent folks, and then you have
a and rightfully so scaled back system to deal with
(06:09):
those agitators or you know, bad actors. The community overall thrives,
but looking at everyone like they're potentially criminals, and governing accordingly,
you end up sort of like manifesting the reality you're
trying to prevent. It's sort of a weird, you know thing,
but you know, we're so stuck in this pattern and
(06:31):
we're so gun obsessed in this country that we end
up sort of eating our own tail and manner speaking. So,
so how about this. You help launch programs focused on equity, youth,
and economic opportunities. So what can you teach us? What
policies or moments from your administration felt the most successful
(06:53):
to you, felt the most personal to you emotionally? What
what do you think other people can learn from? You know,
your your tenure as mayor.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yes for me, like people always ask me, you know,
during my tenure, what's my legacy going to be? You know?
And I didn't want it to be like a building
or you know, a bridge or anything like that. Like
I wanted it to be that a young black and
(07:26):
brown individual looks and says if he did it, I
can do it better than him, and I have that confidence,
you know to do it better. That to me is
my legacy. And I look at that because the work
that we did on issues that no one else would
(07:46):
talk about. We have a lot of mental health issues
in our community, and no one else wanted to touch
it because it's too hard. It costs a lot of money.
There's you know, so much that goes into it. So
when you govern, and you have to govern based on
the whole individual and not just statistics. You know, I
(08:07):
looked at myself and you know, coming from a household,
single parent household where you know, there was a lot
of addiction. We have to fix that addiction in our community.
You know, people are selling drugs, which I've had the
benefits and you know, the trauma of you know, drugs
(08:30):
in a community where my mom was addicted, but also
my brothers kept food on the table from selling drugs,
and you know they also you know, kept the bills paid.
So for me, my goal was, you know, how do
I navigate and give someone inspiration to take the route
that I went because I almost didn't make it. I
(08:54):
went and saw my brother at Green Correctional Prison in
upstate New York. And when I went there, I was
I'm seventeen and I went to get his plug basically,
and I was like, you know, I want to be
like you. Things are rough at home and I'm the
man of the house now, which is you know a
term Black families don't take lightly. And I was like,
(09:16):
how I need I need to bring in in money.
And while he was like explaining to me the game,
I sat back in my chair as a young seventeen
year old, and I started seeing everyone lying across with guns.
I started hearing all this chaos and you know, everything
(09:37):
going on, and I just looked around at so many
of these families that were dealing with a lot. And
in the middle of him explaining everything to me, I said,
I don't want to do it. I don't want to
be where you are. I got to figure it out
a different way. And me and him because he's now
(09:58):
a community leader now too, but me and him talk
about that moment all the time. That was the crosswork road,
And you know, I went back to saying like, if
I could be pulled up out of it, how many
people can I pull up out of it? And how
many people can they pull up out of it? And
that's the legacy.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Just because we have a wider audience that listens to
this show, I want to add something here if I may,
because people I think people's tendency. So I'm from Compton, California. Right,
my mom was on dope, my dad was on dope.
I can come from it too. When you describe, you know,
(10:43):
pulling people up out of it, there's a facet of
this country and there's a way of thinking that exists
in this country that says, yes, we need more of that.
And those people are absolutely right, yes we need more
of that. So I salute you, sir, for changing your
mentality and changing your reality as a result and pulling
(11:07):
people up out of that. But there are people that
see levels deeper, people like you, people like me, And again,
I want to be responsible with this platform. So for
people that can see a level beyond, they understand this.
But for the people that can't, it goes beyond just
(11:28):
pulling up someone left and right, someone getting getting someone
some game and giving showing someone a better way, right,
pulling someone out of it is something that you can
do as an individual. But addressing the it quote unquote
it itself is something that is systemic. The IT is
(11:49):
the oppressive part. It shouldn't exist in the first place, right,
The IT is the thing that doesn't exist in every society,
and that is associated with black people because it has
been imposed, not created by black people. We're on drugs.
I could go back to redlining, I could go back
to the GI bill, I could go back to black codes.
(12:11):
I could go back to slavery. I could go and
there's a bunch of stuff I skipped over, I promise,
and it's all there. And you know, people that do
deep dives on each one of these individual things, and
the legacy of these things recognizes, Hey, any one of
these things would have a ripple effect to today, but
all of these things taken collectively is devastating, and you
(12:34):
end up with the IT that now we you and
me and people like us need to pull younger people
up out of. But again, I want to be responsible
and make sure that people listening know that the IT
shouldn't exist in the first place. Okay, yeah, Now that's
your thoughts to.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Investing in people, yep, because there is so much oppression
and so much systems design, you know, to keep you
you back, and the only way to do that is
to fully invest in people.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Absolutely absolutely, I love that. Okay. Well, another thing, so
I saw this. You became a father recently, and I'm
sure that that has changed the way that you know,
you look at your own childhood and maybe you look
at into the future. So maybe talk a little bit
about what that impact has been like on your life
(13:33):
and your leadership and your thinking.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, I have two daughters, you know, one who's seventeen
and the one who's five.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Okay, I got it when.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
When my oldest was born. That was one of the
key features to say, like, you know, I have to
keep fighting. I to you know, make a way for
myself to you not almost down this inherited trauma that
keeps being puns down from generation to generation. And you know,
(14:07):
I'm working on a book right now that I'm excited about.
But one of the key components about that book is,
you know, talking about how we don't pass down trauma
and how it looks because for everybody else it could
look very different. I said, you know, at the beginning
of the show, when people looked at me as a kid,
(14:29):
they were like, of course he's getting in trouble. It's
in his blood. Look look at his family. And for me,
with my oldest daughter, who you know will be going
to attend Howard in the fall, she was a speech
on stage and I was sitting there in the audience
and a person said to her like they looked over
(14:50):
and they were like, you know, she's she's really good.
She's a true leader. And I was like, thank you.
And then the husband of the person that said that
was like, you know, well look at her family. It's
in her blood. And in that moment, I had this
epiphany where I just sat back and I was like whoa. Like,
I'm not a rich person. I'm not you know, very
(15:14):
extremely successful person. But in that small moment, I was like,
I just interrupted generational trauma and the experience of that.
And you know, that's how I govern, That's how I lead,
and that's something that is my ploudish accomplishment. You know,
(15:36):
went to tour Howard. One of the instructors were like
is you Is it you that's going here or is
it her? And I was like, oh, it's weed. But
just looking at that to say, you know, it took
a lot to get there. It took a lot of
(15:59):
growing up. It took a lot of you know, being
able to be a single parent who can cold parent
in the right way. It took a lot of maturing
and listening and you know, awarding my kids even in
the small battles, like making sure I talk about things
whatever they do and let them know I'm proud, because
(16:21):
the minute they do something wrong, the world is going
to talk about it. So I have to be allowed
as the world who talks about when they do something wrong,
when they do something good, and you know, let them
see my pride.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I love it. I love it. Now. I'm not gonna
let you just you know, drop that little gem and
then you know, keep it moving. So you mentioned a book,
So talk about this book a little bit more and
also to you know, talk about some of the other
things that you're up to, you know, lately.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, so the book is like, you know, it's it's
my baby. I was. I went to therapy, and I
was in therapy for many years, and it's just something
that I took on because we used to do a
local radio show and we used to talk about mental
health and therapy and all these things. And I was like,
(17:11):
you know, why am I on this show talking about
these things if I'm not actually going to apply them.
So I'm someone who suffers from severe depression, you know,
a lot of anxiety as well, and you know, in
the black community, we're told you know that's that's everybody
you know suck it up. So I wanted to kind
(17:33):
of learn from those diagnoses and you know, really see
who I am as a person. And when I was
in therapy, I said to my therapist, she said, what
are your goals for your life? And I said, I
want to be mayor one day and I want to
write a book. I want to tell my story. And
(17:54):
so I checked off the mayor part and now, you know,
I want to tell the story of everything that I've
been through and how because when you hear the spark notes,
it seems like, you know, the teacher just said, you know,
I'm gonna be mayor, and then you know, boom I became.
But there was a lot of grind and a lot
of issues that happened, you know, to get to where
(18:15):
I'm at today. And I want to root it around
giving people inspiration and little gems to see, you know,
what success looks like to them. And one of that
was that conversation where they said it's in her blood.
So the book is called Tuesdays with Trauma. It's a
(18:36):
playoff of Tuesdays with Maury, and it's each chapter is
based on a session of my therapy where I unpack
my journey.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Okay, well, looking forward to it and we'll do it
again at the end. But do me a favorite. Drop
your your social media just so people can, you know,
tap in with you and make sure that when you
do drop your book and you know everything else that
you got going on, folks will know and be able
to keep up with you.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, definitely follow me at Kamal Johnson on Instagram. You'll
see all the updates. You'll see lots of stuff from
you know, my work as mayor and a community leader.
I'm still in my community leading and doing the work
and really trying to change the trajectory of a community
(19:29):
that is being hit with gentrification very hard, sure, and
being able to protect the people that I care about
in a community where the black population has dropped forty percent.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Wow since COVID, Yeah, what what went on there?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
So Hutson became very popular as New York City got
hit with COVID. People saw an opportunity to come into
a city that is small. It also has a rural
backing around it, so you don't have to live in
close quarters like you do in New York City, you know,
(20:10):
And this was attractable to them. We became the largest
migration to a city in the state from people from
larger cities. And then people left, well not left, but
were forced to leave. So people bought properties with cash
(20:33):
above value, so homes that were once multi family homes
became single family homes. The short term rental airbnb craze
hit Hudson, and you know, we lost eight percent of
our housing stop through short term rentals. And when a
(20:53):
lot of these things hit communities, the people affected the
most are usually the black and brow and in this
case it absolutely was.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
He's that's a that's a drastage number, huge drought. Oh man. Okay, well,
uh that brings me the thought. So oh real quick,
I want to make sure that I spell your name.
You're on social media. That's k A M A L. Johnson,
(21:24):
Kamal Johnson for for folks looking up you on looking
you up on social media. Okay, so obviously you saw
zoron mom Donnie ascend to the office of the mayor
in New York City. So talk to us about what
that felt like for you, and you know, talk about,
(21:47):
you know, whether you like some of his policies and
what he stands for. And on and on. What are
your thoughts on zoronm.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Definitely, I'm a fan of Mayor Monnie. I think that
he's doing a lot of great work. Some of his
ideals in the beginning, as someone who's already been in
a seat or like these, are gonna be a little
far effeted. There's a process that's bigger than you know,
what he thinks, and he's going to see that once
(22:15):
he's elected. But so far, i'd have to say he's
stood on everything that you know, he preached and he
campaigned on. It's still early. I'm wishing him the best,
as you know, New York State resident, but it's it's
(22:35):
definitely gonna be tough. Also in the Upstate region, we
have a Mayor Dorsey, who is the first woman of
color to be mayor of the city of Albany, and
she's also seen a lot of those things where black
and brown mayors are treated very different. She inherited a
city with a twenty million dollar budget gap, and you know,
(22:59):
now all of a sudden, it's her fall. So politics
is very interesting, and you know, when you're seeing as
a leader and you're black and brown, there's a different
type of pressure that's on you. The media will use,
you know, your worst pictures to paint you in a
(23:21):
light that is very untrue. So you know, anyone in leadership,
always wish them the.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Best, Okay, Okay, yeah, I think that we could take
a page out of Dave Chappelle's book, because he famously
did the same on Saturday Night Live when Donald Trump
got elected. I believe it was the first time, and
obviously Donald Trump is a bit of an anomaly, but
(23:51):
I think Dave's sentiment was well founded. No matter what
I feel about you or your policies, I wish you
well because your decisions and indecisions and whatnot will affect
all of us and indeed this country for you know, decades,
(24:13):
if not centuries into the future. Right now, you mentioned
I didn't remember her name, and I wanted to write
that down, but you mentioned, uh, another black woman, uh
in a in a in the role of mayor in
New York, and I correct, what's her names? Okay? Uh?
(24:34):
And I don't know if she was one of the
folks that was endorsed by Bernie Sanders, but we covered
a story recently and I forget everyone's name, but there
was a whole slew of candidates that were like socialist
leaning or democrat democratic socialist leaning something like that. And
(24:54):
around here we love that because, uh, there are some
aspec to socialism that are they have merit, you know, certainly,
you know, at the intersection of late stage capitalism and
whatever political ideologies exist in this country at at in
(25:15):
this moment, socialism seems like it's the or not socialism,
but socialist principles seems like they can enter into the
equation and let a little air out of the ball.
And so it seems like there's a response in New
York State, you know, so speak about that, you know,
(25:36):
and then then we'll let you go ahead. And I
just I never get to talk to someone who's like
kind of at that level, so it's kind of cool
to get your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
No, I think that people are seeing that so caught
out of the box thinking needs to be be held.
We can't keep doing things the traditional ways. You know,
Democrats are often their own worst enemies. You know, there's
(26:06):
a lot of things that the other side is doing
to our communities as well. But if we're not aggressive
and we're not thinking out of the box, we're not
gonna see change. It's just going to be the same old,
same old. So I'm happy to see all of these
social minded leaders because that's where the change happens.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah. I mean, we've gone back and forth, ping ponging
between Democrats and Republicans, and the word socialism has become
so demonized and villainized, and I think people forget that
the countries, I should say, in the world with the
happiest you know, populations, and the highest health care index
(26:55):
and the least debt and the least prison population and
the lowest crime rates and the best housing policies and
on and on, they are all to be fair capitalistic countries,
but they have these robust socialist programs that exist, and
they really do it at a page out of your book.
They invest in their people. And this country is big
(27:17):
enough and rich enough to do the same. And it's
just politics as usual around here. And so the idea
that there's these socialist minded folks coming to the table
to introduce new ways of thinking is a sort of
breath of fresh air. So I agree. All right, before
we let you go one more time, drop your social
media plug anything you got coming up, and make sure
(27:38):
folks know how to lock in with you.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Across definitely, you know, follow me at camald Johnson on Instagram.
That's k A m A L. Johnson. You know, stay
tuned for the book. This is, you know, my next
kind of big venture that you know I'm excited about.
And you know, if you have any questions about leaders
ship or anything you heard today, feel free to reach
(28:04):
out to me. You know, thank you for having me
on the show. This was, you know, a privilege. I'm
a big fan. I think you guys have conversations the
right way and the intelligent way, and I was able
to bend a ton of episodes. I feel like I'm
(28:24):
in a good place to say I'm a fan. I
love the show.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Thanks, We'll take it well now. I appreciate you taking
the time to hang out with us too, So once again,
Kamal Johnson, former Mayor of Hudson, New York, community leader
and youth advocate. Of course, you can follow us on
all platforms at Civic Cipher that C I V I
C C I P H E R. You can find
(28:48):
Q at I Am q Ward on all platforms. You
can look for me at Rams's y'all on all platforms
and until next time, y'all, Peace,
Keep on riding with it, says, we continue to broadcast
the balance and defend the discourse from the Hip Hop
Weekly Studios. Welcome back to Civic Cipher. I'm your host,
Ramsa's Joah.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
He is Ramsy's Joh. I am q Ward. You are
tuned into Civic signe.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Indeed, and for those of you out in the real
world who are not happy with the way things are
going and feel like you can make a difference, I
think today's conversation might inspire you, so be sure to
buckle up and continued rib with us. As I mentioned,
because I'm learning a lot. I know q'es learning a lot,
(00:31):
and our hope is that you will learn a lot
as well. So yeah, let's get back to it. Kamal
Johnson is a former mayor of Hudson, New York, community
leader and youth advocate, and he is our guest today.
We're in the middle of a conversation talking about many things,
and let's pick it up where I left off. Okay,
(00:54):
so you went or sorry. The city went through major
conversations around houses, policing, equity, and development during your administration,
so talk to us about how you led everyone through
all that conflict. I'm sure there's a lot of back
and forth, and those are a lot of issues that
are real hot button issues, especially now, but you know
(01:15):
they were certainly at the time as well. So I
recognize that everybody thinks that they have the best idea,
everybody thinks that their beliefs are the right ones and
going to work. So you know, how do you manage
that and get I mean, I guess you don't really
manage it. You just kind of make a decision, but
(01:36):
you know, talk us through it, because that's got to
be tough.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, I mean, it was difficult, and there was no
kind of blueprint on going to deal with COVID, how
to deal with so much civil unrests and emotions of
the community. So for me, it was we were just
trying things. You know, I was staying true to myself.
I was listening to the people, and a lot of
(02:01):
the people wanted to be heard and they wanted their
elected officials to give them some kind of relief and answers.
I want to say after George Floyd's death was probably
the scariest time of me as being a new mayor.
We had a lot of people in the community that
wanted to get together. I wanted to talk. I wanted
(02:24):
to rally, and a lot of cities were dealing with,
you know, people looting and reading, and you had all
these people that had nothing to do with the movements
now coming into cities to you know, agitate and do
things like that. So for me, I wanted to get
my entire community out in front of me, and I
(02:45):
wanted to hear from them, and I wanted to bring
up speakers who you know, are in this work, and
I wanted them to know that and trust that my
administration was with them. You know, we're going to stand
tall through all of this and we're going to actually
make changes in our community. And people, you know, immediately
criticized me that doesn't happen here, that you know, it's
(03:06):
not what goes on here. And I'm like, well, we're
being proactive, because every other place felt that way too
until it happened. So a big rally, you know, I
wanted people to be six feet away from each other,
so we put markers literally in the road. And this
(03:26):
is in the midst of COVID as well. So we
got everybody out there and people were blowing my phone up.
They were like this is big mistake. You know, this
is going to go bad, Like this is going to
be a stain on you. And when I woke up
that morning of the day of the protest, that said,
(03:47):
I'm either going to be the smartest person on the
street or I'm going to be the dumbest if it
goes bad. And we went up there and we shared
our personal thoughts and a human inside of what's going on,
and we talked to the public and I said to them,
I said, listen, if you trust me as your leader
(04:09):
in the mayor of this city, I'm not going to
put in a curfew, but I will say at eight
o'clock tonight, go home. If you don't have anything that
you need to do that's essential in the streets or
anything like that, go home. If you want me this
moment to mean something and you and you felt heard today,
(04:31):
go home at eight o'clock. And at eight o five,
I drove around the entire city and it was like
a ghost town and I literally got goosebumps where I
was like, this is what it's all about. Like I
didn't have to program, I didn't have to create an
initiative or anything. People just wanted to be heard and
(04:53):
to know that there's gonna be things that are going
to be happening in the future. And I went home
and I just it was just it felt good.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's crazy because a lot of
people lose sight of the fact that most people are
decent folks and you know, they don't really need a
whole lot of this, and that it's you know, sure
there are bad actors. You know, I mentioned earlier that
a root cause of a lot of the crime found
(05:27):
in black communities is poverty. So if you address poverty,
get people, uh you know, a better economic base, uh again, childcare,
after school programs, you know, uh, transportation, obviously, opportunities, right,
you know, you change the material reality of those folks.
(05:48):
But that's not to say that all of you know,
the crime goes away. It's just the majority of it
goes away. There are definitely bad actors, and so recognizing
that most people are decent folks and approaching communities as
though most folks are decent folks, and then you have
a and rightfully so scaled back system to deal with
(06:09):
those agitators or you know, bad actors. The community overall thrives,
but looking at everyone like they're potentially criminals, and governing accordingly,
you end up sort of like manifesting the reality you're
trying to prevent. It's sort of a weird, you know thing,
but you know, we're so stuck in this pattern and
(06:31):
we're so gun obsessed in this country that we end
up sort of eating our own tail and manner speaking. So,
so how about this. You help launch programs focused on equity, youth,
and economic opportunities. So what can you teach us? What
policies or moments from your administration felt the most successful
(06:53):
to you, felt the most personal to you emotionally? What
what do you think other people can learn from? You know,
your your tenure as mayor.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yes for me, like people always ask me, you know,
during my tenure, what's my legacy going to be? You know?
And I didn't want it to be like a building
or you know, a bridge or anything like that. Like
I wanted it to be that a young black and
(07:26):
brown individual looks and says if he did it, I
can do it better than him, and I have that confidence,
you know to do it better. That to me is
my legacy. And I look at that because the work
that we did on issues that no one else would
(07:46):
talk about. We have a lot of mental health issues
in our community, and no one else wanted to touch
it because it's too hard. It costs a lot of money.
There's you know, so much that goes into it. So
when you govern, and you have to govern based on
the whole individual and not just statistics. You know, I
(08:07):
looked at myself and you know, coming from a household,
single parent household where you know, there was a lot
of addiction. We have to fix that addiction in our community.
You know, people are selling drugs, which I've had the
benefits and you know, the trauma of you know, drugs
(08:30):
in a community where my mom was addicted, but also
my brothers kept food on the table from selling drugs,
and you know they also you know, kept the bills paid.
So for me, my goal was, you know, how do
I navigate and give someone inspiration to take the route
that I went because I almost didn't make it. I
(08:54):
went and saw my brother at Green Correctional Prison in
upstate New York. And when I went there, I was
I'm seventeen and I went to get his plug basically,
and I was like, you know, I want to be
like you. Things are rough at home and I'm the
man of the house now, which is you know a
term Black families don't take lightly. And I was like,
(09:16):
how I need I need to bring in in money.
And while he was like explaining to me the game,
I sat back in my chair as a young seventeen
year old, and I started seeing everyone lying across with guns.
I started hearing all this chaos and you know, everything
(09:37):
going on, and I just looked around at so many
of these families that were dealing with a lot. And
in the middle of him explaining everything to me, I said,
I don't want to do it. I don't want to
be where you are. I got to figure it out
a different way. And me and him because he's now
(09:58):
a community leader now too, but me and him talk
about that moment all the time. That was the crosswork road,
And you know, I went back to saying like, if
I could be pulled up out of it, how many
people can I pull up out of it? And how
many people can they pull up out of it? And
that's the legacy.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Just because we have a wider audience that listens to
this show, I want to add something here if I may,
because people I think people's tendency. So I'm from Compton, California. Right,
my mom was on dope, my dad was on dope.
I can come from it too. When you describe, you know,
(10:43):
pulling people up out of it, there's a facet of
this country and there's a way of thinking that exists
in this country that says, yes, we need more of that.
And those people are absolutely right, yes we need more
of that. So I salute you, sir, for changing your
mentality and changing your reality as a result and pulling
(11:07):
people up out of that. But there are people that
see levels deeper, people like you, people like me, And again,
I want to be responsible with this platform. So for
people that can see a level beyond, they understand this.
But for the people that can't, it goes beyond just
(11:28):
pulling up someone left and right, someone getting getting someone
some game and giving showing someone a better way, right,
pulling someone out of it is something that you can
do as an individual. But addressing the it quote unquote
it itself is something that is systemic. The IT is
(11:49):
the oppressive part. It shouldn't exist in the first place, right,
The IT is the thing that doesn't exist in every society,
and that is associated with black people because it has
been imposed, not created by black people. We're on drugs.
I could go back to redlining, I could go back
to the GI bill, I could go back to black codes.
(12:11):
I could go back to slavery. I could go and
there's a bunch of stuff I skipped over, I promise,
and it's all there. And you know, people that do
deep dives on each one of these individual things, and
the legacy of these things recognizes, Hey, any one of
these things would have a ripple effect to today, but
all of these things taken collectively is devastating, and you
(12:34):
end up with the IT that now we you and
me and people like us need to pull younger people
up out of. But again, I want to be responsible
and make sure that people listening know that the IT
shouldn't exist in the first place. Okay, yeah, Now that's
your thoughts to.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Investing in people, yep, because there is so much oppression
and so much systems design, you know, to keep you
you back, and the only way to do that is
to fully invest in people.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Absolutely absolutely, I love that. Okay. Well, another thing, so
I saw this. You became a father recently, and I'm
sure that that has changed the way that you know,
you look at your own childhood and maybe you look
at into the future. So maybe talk a little bit
about what that impact has been like on your life
(13:33):
and your leadership and your thinking.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, I have two daughters, you know, one who's seventeen
and the one who's five.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Okay, I got it when.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
When my oldest was born. That was one of the
key features to say, like, you know, I have to
keep fighting. I to you know, make a way for
myself to you not almost down this inherited trauma that
keeps being puns down from generation to generation. And you know,
(14:07):
I'm working on a book right now that I'm excited about.
But one of the key components about that book is,
you know, talking about how we don't pass down trauma
and how it looks because for everybody else it could
look very different. I said, you know, at the beginning
of the show, when people looked at me as a kid,
(14:29):
they were like, of course he's getting in trouble. It's
in his blood. Look look at his family. And for me,
with my oldest daughter, who you know will be going
to attend Howard in the fall, she was a speech
on stage and I was sitting there in the audience
and a person said to her like they looked over
(14:50):
and they were like, you know, she's she's really good.
She's a true leader. And I was like, thank you.
And then the husband of the person that said that
was like, you know, well look at her family. It's
in her blood. And in that moment, I had this
epiphany where I just sat back and I was like whoa. Like,
I'm not a rich person. I'm not you know, very
(15:14):
extremely successful person. But in that small moment, I was like,
I just interrupted generational trauma and the experience of that.
And you know, that's how I govern, That's how I lead,
and that's something that is my ploudish accomplishment. You know,
(15:36):
went to tour Howard. One of the instructors were like
is you Is it you that's going here or is
it her? And I was like, oh, it's weed. But
just looking at that to say, you know, it took
a lot to get there. It took a lot of
(15:59):
growing up. It took a lot of you know, being
able to be a single parent who can cold parent
in the right way. It took a lot of maturing
and listening and you know, awarding my kids even in
the small battles, like making sure I talk about things
whatever they do and let them know I'm proud, because
(16:21):
the minute they do something wrong, the world is going
to talk about it. So I have to be allowed
as the world who talks about when they do something wrong,
when they do something good, and you know, let them
see my pride.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
I love it. I love it. Now. I'm not gonna
let you just you know, drop that little gem and
then you know, keep it moving. So you mentioned a book,
So talk about this book a little bit more and
also to you know, talk about some of the other
things that you're up to, you know, lately.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, so the book is like, you know, it's it's
my baby. I was. I went to therapy, and I
was in therapy for many years, and it's just something
that I took on because we used to do a
local radio show and we used to talk about mental
health and therapy and all these things. And I was like,
(17:11):
you know, why am I on this show talking about
these things if I'm not actually going to apply them.
So I'm someone who suffers from severe depression, you know,
a lot of anxiety as well, and you know, in
the black community, we're told you know that's that's everybody
you know suck it up. So I wanted to kind
(17:33):
of learn from those diagnoses and you know, really see
who I am as a person. And when I was
in therapy, I said to my therapist, she said, what
are your goals for your life? And I said, I
want to be mayor one day and I want to
write a book. I want to tell my story. And
(17:54):
so I checked off the mayor part and now, you know,
I want to tell the story of everything that I've
been through and how because when you hear the spark notes,
it seems like, you know, the teacher just said, you know,
I'm gonna be mayor, and then you know, boom I became.
But there was a lot of grind and a lot
of issues that happened, you know, to get to where
(18:15):
I'm at today. And I want to root it around
giving people inspiration and little gems to see, you know,
what success looks like to them. And one of that
was that conversation where they said it's in her blood.
So the book is called Tuesdays with Trauma. It's a
(18:36):
playoff of Tuesdays with Maury, and it's each chapter is
based on a session of my therapy where I unpack
my journey.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Okay, well, looking forward to it and we'll do it
again at the end. But do me a favorite. Drop
your your social media just so people can, you know,
tap in with you and make sure that when you
do drop your book and you know everything else that
you got going on, folks will know and be able
to keep up with you.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah, definitely follow me at Kamal Johnson on Instagram. You'll
see all the updates. You'll see lots of stuff from
you know, my work as mayor and a community leader.
I'm still in my community leading and doing the work
and really trying to change the trajectory of a community
(19:29):
that is being hit with gentrification very hard, sure, and
being able to protect the people that I care about
in a community where the black population has dropped forty percent.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Wow since COVID, Yeah, what what went on there?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
So Hutson became very popular as New York City got
hit with COVID. People saw an opportunity to come into
a city that is small. It also has a rural
backing around it, so you don't have to live in
close quarters like you do in New York City, you know,
(20:10):
And this was attractable to them. We became the largest
migration to a city in the state from people from
larger cities. And then people left, well not left, but
were forced to leave. So people bought properties with cash
(20:33):
above value, so homes that were once multi family homes
became single family homes. The short term rental airbnb craze
hit Hudson, and you know, we lost eight percent of
our housing stop through short term rentals. And when a
(20:53):
lot of these things hit communities, the people affected the
most are usually the black and brow and in this
case it absolutely was.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
He's that's a that's a drastage number, huge drought. Oh man. Okay, well,
uh that brings me the thought. So oh real quick,
I want to make sure that I spell your name.
You're on social media. That's k A M A L. Johnson,
(21:24):
Kamal Johnson for for folks looking up you on looking
you up on social media. Okay, so obviously you saw
zoron mom Donnie ascend to the office of the mayor
in New York City. So talk to us about what
that felt like for you, and you know, talk about,
(21:47):
you know, whether you like some of his policies and
what he stands for. And on and on. What are
your thoughts on zoronm.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Definitely, I'm a fan of Mayor Monnie. I think that
he's doing a lot of great work. Some of his
ideals in the beginning, as someone who's already been in
a seat or like these, are gonna be a little
far effeted. There's a process that's bigger than you know,
what he thinks, and he's going to see that once
(22:15):
he's elected. But so far, i'd have to say he's
stood on everything that you know, he preached and he
campaigned on. It's still early. I'm wishing him the best,
as you know, New York State resident, but it's it's
(22:35):
definitely gonna be tough. Also in the Upstate region, we
have a Mayor Dorsey, who is the first woman of
color to be mayor of the city of Albany, and
she's also seen a lot of those things where black
and brown mayors are treated very different. She inherited a
city with a twenty million dollar budget gap, and you know,
(22:59):
now all of a sudden, it's her fall. So politics
is very interesting, and you know, when you're seeing as
a leader and you're black and brown, there's a different
type of pressure that's on you. The media will use,
you know, your worst pictures to paint you in a
(23:21):
light that is very untrue. So you know, anyone in leadership,
always wish them the.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Best, Okay, Okay, yeah, I think that we could take
a page out of Dave Chappelle's book, because he famously
did the same on Saturday Night Live when Donald Trump
got elected. I believe it was the first time, and
obviously Donald Trump is a bit of an anomaly, but
(23:51):
I think Dave's sentiment was well founded. No matter what
I feel about you or your policies, I wish you
well because your decisions and indecisions and whatnot will affect
all of us and indeed this country for you know, decades,
(24:13):
if not centuries into the future. Right now, you mentioned
I didn't remember her name, and I wanted to write
that down, but you mentioned, uh, another black woman, uh
in a in a in the role of mayor in
New York, and I correct, what's her names? Okay? Uh?
(24:34):
And I don't know if she was one of the
folks that was endorsed by Bernie Sanders, but we covered
a story recently and I forget everyone's name, but there
was a whole slew of candidates that were like socialist
leaning or democrat democratic socialist leaning something like that. And
(24:54):
around here we love that because, uh, there are some
aspec to socialism that are they have merit, you know, certainly,
you know, at the intersection of late stage capitalism and
whatever political ideologies exist in this country at at in
(25:15):
this moment, socialism seems like it's the or not socialism,
but socialist principles seems like they can enter into the
equation and let a little air out of the ball.
And so it seems like there's a response in New
York State, you know, so speak about that, you know,
(25:36):
and then then we'll let you go ahead. And I
just I never get to talk to someone who's like
kind of at that level, so it's kind of cool
to get your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
No, I think that people are seeing that so caught
out of the box thinking needs to be be held.
We can't keep doing things the traditional ways. You know,
Democrats are often their own worst enemies. You know, there's
(26:06):
a lot of things that the other side is doing
to our communities as well. But if we're not aggressive
and we're not thinking out of the box, we're not
gonna see change. It's just going to be the same old,
same old. So I'm happy to see all of these
social minded leaders because that's where the change happens.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah. I mean, we've gone back and forth, ping ponging
between Democrats and Republicans, and the word socialism has become
so demonized and villainized, and I think people forget that
the countries, I should say, in the world with the
happiest you know, populations, and the highest health care index
(26:55):
and the least debt and the least prison population and
the lowest crime rates and the best housing policies and
on and on, they are all to be fair capitalistic countries,
but they have these robust socialist programs that exist, and
they really do it at a page out of your book.
They invest in their people. And this country is big
(27:17):
enough and rich enough to do the same. And it's
just politics as usual around here. And so the idea
that there's these socialist minded folks coming to the table
to introduce new ways of thinking is a sort of
breath of fresh air. So I agree. All right, before
we let you go one more time, drop your social
media plug anything you got coming up, and make sure
(27:38):
folks know how to lock in with you.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Across definitely, you know, follow me at camald Johnson on Instagram.
That's k A m A L. Johnson. You know, stay
tuned for the book. This is, you know, my next
kind of big venture that you know I'm excited about.
And you know, if you have any questions about leaders
ship or anything you heard today, feel free to reach
(28:04):
out to me. You know, thank you for having me
on the show. This was, you know, a privilege. I'm
a big fan. I think you guys have conversations the
right way and the intelligent way, and I was able
to bend a ton of episodes. I feel like I'm
(28:24):
in a good place to say I'm a fan. I
love the show.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Thanks, We'll take it well now. I appreciate you taking
the time to hang out with us too, So once again,
Kamal Johnson, former Mayor of Hudson, New York, community leader
and youth advocate. Of course, you can follow us on
all platforms at Civic Cipher that C I V I
C C I P H E R. You can find
(28:48):
Q at I Am q Ward on all platforms. You
can look for me at Rams's y'all on all platforms
and until next time, y'all, Peace,
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