Karma Cottman is CEO of Ujima, The National Center on Violence Against Women in
the Black Community, where she leads policy work with legislators and government
agencies on behalf of survivors.
A Washington, D.C. native with over 20 years in the field, she previously served a
decade as Executive Director of the DC Coalition Against Domestic Violence and a
decade at the National Network to End Domestic Violence, directing national policy as
VP of Policy and Emerging Issues.
Today she also sits on the steering committee of the Institute on Domestic Violence in the African Community and the Policy Partnership for Communities of Color.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
welcome to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our mission
is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. I am your host,
Ramsay's joh in the Saddle, and we got a couple
special guests in store for you today. Stay tuned later
on the show. Tyler mcbrian, the managing editor of law Fair,
joins us to discuss the Justice Department deleting press files.
But right now, Karma Cottman joins us to discuss violence
(00:21):
against women in the Black community. Karma Cottman is CEO
of EUJIMA, the National Center on Violence against Women in
the Black Community, where she leads policy work with legislators
and government agencies on behalf of survivors. A Washington, DC
native with over twenty years in the field, she previously
served a decade as executive director of the DC Coalition
(00:44):
Against Domestic Violence and a decade at the National Network
to End Domestic Violence directing national policy as VP of
Policy and Emerging Issues. Today, she also sits on the
steering committee of the Institute on Domestic Violence in the
African Community and the Policy Partner for Communities of Color,
and she is our guest today, Karma Katman, Welcome to
(01:06):
the show. It is an honor to be sharing time
and space with you, a person who does such amazing work.
How are things in your world today?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Things are going well. Thank you so much for taking
the time. I know that often this issue is not
something that feels palatable, and so I am so grateful
to radio and media for bringing this conversation into the
houses and homes of those individuals that may need assistance.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Indeed, that's exactly what we're here for now. I was
able to paint a little bit of a picture and
give our listeners a bit of an idea of the
sort of work that you do. But you know, you
are obviously in a much better position to tell that story,
So talk to us a little bit. Tell us about
Yujima and the work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So UJIMA is a national organization, we are culturally specific,
so in thean of Fubu for us by us addressing violence,
sexual assault and community violence in the black community. We,
as you noted, provide training and technical assistance. So we
go out into communities. We work with first responders so
(02:17):
that they are responsive to the needs of black survivors.
We do community education and mobilization. So right now I'm
at the Essence Festival doing work here. We'll be doing
a screening shortly of is God Is and so bringing
these conversations to our community in the ways that feel
Germane to us. We do policy and legislative advocacy, so
(02:39):
we're working on Capitol Hill to ensure that the needs,
particularly of Black survivors, are met in policies and legislation.
And then we have a research and evaluation work group
that really looks at ensuring that research is telling the
stories of black women, black children, black men that have
been impacted by these issues.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I love that I was fortunate enough to have a
conversation with a woman who helmed a domestic violence shelter
many moons ago, and one of the things that she
wished that she could have done was either develop a
(03:20):
department or procure some support because she felt that she
was not able to really penetrate in the black community
specifically in the way that she would have wanted to.
So obviously that's something that you're taken care of. Because
cultural competency in dealing with these issues in soofar as
(03:43):
black women are concerned is sort of right at the
center of your mission. Do I have that right?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It is core to the way that we were understanding
the complexities of healing for black women, how we healed differently,
how we talk about how we expect sperience violence differently.
Oftentimes you hear people use words victims, survivors, and Black
women don't always see ourselves in that terminology because we're
meant to be strong and resilient, and so when we
(04:12):
use those terms, they don't necessarily always speak to us.
And I'll talk later about why we need to get
over that, but that just rings true. And then for
our community, very often, you know, when we talk about
domestic violence, there is a perception that it means that
we're ostracizing or we no longer care about the black
(04:32):
men and black.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Boys in our community.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And so part of our work at UJIMA is talking
about how our community as a whole is impacted by
domestic violence and sexual assault and also community violence, and
why it's important to lift up and talk about the
safety and center the safety of black women and girls.
But that does not in any way mean that we
don't care for love and honor and respect the lives
(04:57):
of black men and boys as well. Us want to
make sure that we are not requiring black women to
sacrifice their own safety to care for the men and
boys in their lives.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Sure, sure, let's go with that for a little bit.
It sounds to me like there are there's apprehension maybe
maybe barriers is the right word, that might be specific
to black women that might prevent them from seeking help
or might muddy the waters a bit for our listeners
(05:29):
that might not recognize these signs in their own lives
and the lives of you know, the women and family
members and whatnot that they love. Talk about some of
these barriers and what would prevent a woman from actually
seeking some help to elevator circumstances.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, the first thing that you just noted is we
don't always understand what domestic violence is, what sexual assault is,
so we don't recognize those signs, right, and so domestic
violence can be those controlling behaviors in our relationships. And
sometimes what's very interesting is sometimes they're the very things
that can attract us that then become harmful to us.
(06:13):
So that extreme possession someone who you meet them, you've
been dating for two days and all of a sudden
they're in love, they're showering you with gifts, they're.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Saying, it's just me and you against the world. You know,
you're You're all I have.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Those things can sometimes draw us in, but then they
can also be harmful when it comes to isolating you
from family and friends when you need assistance, when it
comes to controlling behaviors, putting you down, jealousy. And I
always say to women, if you get if you get
an early sense that something is wrong, you have wonderful
(06:49):
sixth sense, right, and so you've got to act.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
On those things.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
But we don't always know, and so recognizing those those
sort of red flags, but then they're are as you
also noted, and I think it's really important that you
note this, is that there are particular barriers for us
as black women when we're looking for assistance. And so
I mentioned earlier that idea that we're strong black women,
(07:13):
we are resilient, That very strengthen us can be the
thing that keeps us from telling because we're not supposed
to be victims. We're not supposed to be weak, we're
not supposed to need help, and so when we're in
those situations, you know, it feels uncomfortable or that becomes
an internal and an external barrier. Black women often are
(07:36):
reticent to call law enforcement for all the reasons we know, right,
the historical trauma of being engaged in systems is very real,
and so because of that, we're sometimes often afraid to
call law enforcement. We're worried about, you know, what's going
to happen to us, are they going to harm us
when they respond? But also we care for that person
(07:57):
who has caused us harm, so we don't want the
negative to happen to them. We you know, for good
or for bad. We do have a no snitche culture,
and so we don't want to you know, bring other
people into our personal relationships, so that again causes us
to harm.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
And then sometimes in.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The programs that we're seeking assistance, we know that there
isn't an understanding of the cultural context that we're coming from, right,
and so we don't see ourselves in the programming, and
so that too can be a barrier. When you combine
all of those things and the images of black women,
the images around sexuality and hyper sexuality, the images of
(08:42):
strength or not thereof those things can also keep us
from reporting stories about what happens. I hear so many
black women that go to tell about their own experiences,
and the first thing they hear is why'd you stay?
I would never right, or girl, you got a good man,
(09:02):
so deal with what you gotta deal with because he's
taking care of the family and there aren't many like them.
And so those are messages not only to that survivor,
but to the children that are watching, to the nieces
that are watching, to community that are watching, to say
that it's not safe for us to tell.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Karma. Cottman is with us from UJIMA? Do us a favorite?
Can you plug like the website, social media, all that
sort of stuff. I'mnna ask you again before we wrap,
but I want to feed this information throughout our conversation
to listeners because this feels important absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Our website is ujimacommunity dot org and all of our
social moves are ujima Community as well.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Ujima Is you j I m A so yeah? If
you feel so inclined, be sure to check that out.
The first thing I want to say is that around here,
one of the things that Q and Iq is my
co host. One of the things that he and I
say every time we have a mic and an audience
(10:16):
is that we feel like it's not even a matter
of feeling. We know that black women are as close
to God as we can be on this planet, and
we can make a scientific case for that argument. We
can make a moral case for that argument, we can
make a philosophical case for that argument. And I challenge
(10:36):
anybody to meet either of us, certainly not both of
us in that battlefield. We understand the calling, and we
like to think that that is a widely shared belief,
but we'd be foolish to assume that everybody feels that way.
(10:59):
You mentioned something that we have to deal with. We
have to deal with this on this show quite a bit.
We constantly challenge systems of oppression that exists in this country,
not the least of which is the carcal system. And
so to a much lesser degree, I would imagine that
(11:22):
even for folks like us that hold black women in
such a high regard and black people, it is our
job to do that and it is our duty to
do that as well that when it comes to considering
incorporating police or other form of protection, you know, we're
(11:43):
the ones that will actually stop and say, what is
this black life worth? You know, this person does have
the potential to change, to grow, to develop. This is
a mistake and nobody is simply the worst thing that
they've ever done. And how do you judge someone in
their worst moment where their heart broken and they're afraid
and blah blah blah. Right, so we will have a
(12:04):
moment in pause and reflect. So I can only imagine
how much more intense that moment might be for a
woman who has loved amand who is now traumatizing or
brutalizing her. So I say that to say that I've
(12:24):
learned to respect that question, and I don't ask it
like I might have back in the day. Why did
you stay? Why didn't you ask for help? Why did
you not appeal to the systems that exist in the world.
But it took me a long time to get there.
I just realized that not everybody took my path, and
so a lot of people might still be asking that question.
(12:44):
I do want to mention that in the past, maybe
a few months, we had covered some stories of violence
against black women, high profile incidents, incidents involving children, you know,
all that sort of stuff. I can only imagine how
those stories hit you in the space where you were working.
(13:06):
So talk about what that means for you, talk about
maybe what people have learned from it, or maybe you
saw those as teachable moments. But you know, for our
listeners that might have forgotten, you know, maybe a bit
of a refresher because this is obviously something that affects
black people, and you know, I don't I don't associate
domestic violence with black people, but you know, in the
(13:29):
past few months, as I mentioned, it's something that I've
had to, you know, reconsider my position on So please.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
There's so much to unpack in that one question.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And so first let me start with saying thank you
to both you Ramsy Is into your your co host
Q for lifting up black women, because that too is
a part of the issue. Right Black women need to
know that black men support them, and so it's so
important to hear you say that and it's appreciated. And then,
(14:03):
you know, the issues around the car soural system are
something that we, even as organizations who address domestic violence,
struggle with. So just a few months ago, we brought
together six HBCUs to consider that very question. What would
(14:24):
be the response if there were no car sural system,
if we had to go outside of the car sural system.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
What would it look like, What does the context look like.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Can our community hold perpetrators or harmdoers accountable? What kinds
of tools does our community need to do that? So
that is a conversation and a through line that we're
having in all of the spaces of our community because
we've recognized historical trauma, we recognize harm that's placed not
(14:56):
only in the car soural system, but in the child
welfare system, in the criminal legal system, right, and so
there are these questions, but we also recognize that safety
is real and women are losing their lives.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
And that brings us.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
To what you talked about about doctor Serena Fairfax who
lost her lives, the horrendous murders that happened in Shreveport,
the murder of the pastor in North Carolina on Easter Sunday,
uh and and the names and stories go on and on,
and there are a couple of things in that unpacking
(15:36):
that for our community, it was traumatizing and also a
place of question because we didn't see ourselves in these murder, suicides,
murders of children, right, extreme incidences.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
If you had talked to any of us. We would
say that's not us, right, that's not what we do,
that's not a black person. And so so there was a.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Level setting around what that kind of violence looked like
for us. And then there was I think for many
in our community. I think this very real and telling
struggle around who to center in that space, right, because
people said, well, then there must be an extreme case
of mental health issue, right to lead a black man
(16:25):
to do X must mean that there is a mental
health issue. And so in some contexts we forgot about
talking about the victim because we were simply focused on
this just doesn't happen. So we got to address the
mental health issue. And what I argue my position as
a domestic violence advocate is it doesn't always happen to
(16:47):
that extent, but Black women are losing their lives every
day as a result of domestic violence. Black women are
nine times more likely to be murdered by an intimate
partner than and other communities in this country. Really we are, yes,
we are more likely to particularly when they're as a handgun.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Involved in the incident. And so the issue is not new,
The attention to the issue is new.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
The who we classified as victims is for some people
new and I think that the access to handguns is real.
The issues that are happening in our communities where you
have many black women who are losing jobs, black women
who were there winners in their homes, and so economic
(17:43):
issues are impacting us. Certainly mental health issues are impacting
our community.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
And so it makes.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Me circle back to this issue that you started with
Ramseys at first. Is one being able to center black
women and talking about the victimization in our community means
that we have to dispel a lot of mix about
how our communities function, what safety looks like in our communities,
what black women and black children have been struggling with
(18:15):
in our communities. We've got to be real about those situations.
But then we've got to say that that does not
define who our community is, right even the harmdoer, it
doesn't define who our community is. But we got to
make pathways for people to be to talk about what's
happening in their homes safely. We've got to familiarize ourselves
(18:36):
with the resources, and we've got to make sure that
those resources are culturally competent so that they understand what
victimization looks like from for us and how we seek help,
which is it just is different because of all the
cultural contexts and the cultural things that we name before.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
So let's go with that. I want to ask you
you sort of a two part question, and I think
both parts are are going to be important. You'll see
what I mean in a second. So I want to
talk to you about Ujima. Okay, Let's say, for instance,
(19:15):
there is a listener today who is dealing with domestic
violence in their home. Because you're in a good position
to articulate the resources that you could dedicate to a person.
Let's say they listen to our conversation, they reach out
to you at Ujima. What is it that Ujima can
(19:38):
bring to the table to help a person? That's part one,
and then part two is for people who are not
themselves in the middle of a domestic violence situation, Maybe
what is it that these people because I suspect there'll
be more people, what is it that these people should
(19:59):
know themselves or about Ujima. Maybe there's resources, whatever, But
you know, there's a conversation for people who want to
take action, and I think you're in a good position
to tell us all what we should be doing.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Absolute absolutely so, for survivors, if you dependent, If you
visit our website www dot ugimacommunity dot org, there are
resources on the website that direct you to local community
based organizations that are available. Many of them have shelter
and legal resources, advocates that can help navigate children's services,
(20:40):
a wide range of services. We also have on there,
and I always lived up the National Domestic Violence Hotline,
which is one eight hundred seven nine to nine safe
or one eight hundred seven nine to nine seven two
three three. The National Domestic Violence Hotline is available twenty
(21:01):
four hours a day, seven days a week, as are
most of the domestic violence programs that are included on
our website. There are also some fact sheets and tip sheets,
because again sometimes it's just about confirming that is this
truly domestic violence that I'm experiencing, and so people need
just access to that level of resources. And then for family,
(21:25):
for friends, for community members, for radio hosts, for barbers,
for uticians. There are a number of resources also available
on our website that talk about how do you talk
to a family member who discloses that it's a domestic
violence situation, how do you recognize that there is domestic
(21:51):
violence happening with your family member or friend, or just
with the neighbor across the street.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
How do you.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Provide resource sources to that individual. All of those things
are available on our site. We have some other resources
that are in multimedia modalities. So we have this Connected
and Protected that's really geared towards young people between the
ages of sixteen to twenty four because young people experience
(22:21):
domestic violence at the very highest rates that age range,
and so really talking about technology usage, they're using a
whole different modality and experience and violence, whether it's you know,
their pictures being exposed or someone that can track them
because they posted everything online, to you know, making sure
(22:43):
that parents know how they talk to children about domestic violence.
So all of those sources are available. The other thing
that UJIMA can do is if you are, you know,
at a church, or if you are in a community orization,
or if you are at the barbershop and you need
someone just to come out and provide training and do
(23:07):
some community education. That is something that we can also offer.
So all of those things, you can request that kind
of assistance through our website. You can contact us through
one eight four four seven seven UJIMA. So that's the
phone line one eight four four seven seven ujima, or
(23:27):
you can access us on our website. The most important thing, though,
RAMS is this idea that we've got to educate ourselves,
so use those talking points. I often have to remind
people that most domestic violence survivors are most victims of
domestic violence, their first outreach is not going to be
(23:50):
to a domestic violence program. Their first outreach is going
to be to a family member, a friend of someone
who's doing they're getting their hair done, they're telling the story,
a doctor, and so it's going to a pastor, is
going to be to someone else that they trust, and
the response of that person is critical in that moment.
(24:15):
And so the first thing that you have to do
is believe them. The first thing that you've got to
do is lead with that perception. And then this other piece,
and I'll just drop it in really quickly, is the
recognition that for most survivors, it takes five to seven
times for them to attempt to leave before they actually
(24:36):
do leave. And so what can get frustrating for us
is we have this person that we recognize all the
signs and we've said, girl, this is dangerous, get out
and then they're back with the person and so we
throw up our hands and we're like, I'm done with
this because I told them and they didn't leave. But
we've got to know that it takes five to seven times,
(24:58):
and that's because it is the scene most dangerous time
for a survivor, the moment that they say they're going
to leave. The vast majority of the homicides that we've
seen that you talked about earlier, they had left or
they were preparing.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
To leave the harmdoer and that person.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Committed murder, right And so it's recognizing that it's not
that simple. This person has all their private information. They
often have access to their bank accounts, they know how
they the route they take to drop off their kids,
they know where their mother lives. And so the survivor
or the victim is trying to navigate all of those things,
(25:41):
keeping themselves safe, but also keeping all the other people
that they are in contact with safe. And so those
are all the things that for us as family members
and friends we've got to keep in front of mind
when we're providing advice. Is that one believe in them,
and two recognizing that the moment that they start to
tell and the moment that they say they're going to leave,
(26:03):
that is the most dangerous time for them. So they
are the expert in how they've got to navigate that karma.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Cottman is with us from UJIMA and you can find
out more at ujimacommunity dot org. Just briefly, and I
apologize that it has to be brief, but I'd love
for you to speak to domestic violence because you mentioned
a few different ways, and I don't think I had
ever conceived of domestic violence like that before. But you
(26:31):
mentioned photos, and there was something else that you mentioned too,
and when you think about it, I guess that could qualify.
So for folks that don't know, paint a fuller picture
of what because I think I would have thought violence
wouldn't have been simply an argument. It would have been like
once it turns physical, then it becomes domestic violence. Please
elaborate a bit more on what domestic violence looks like
(26:55):
in the real world.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Well, you're right, domestic violence be verbal, it can be emotional,
it can be financial, it can be psychological, and it
can be physical. It can be online violent. So we
are seeing an increase in technological violence. So what does
that mean that means someone who you sent a new
(27:18):
picture to your boyfriend, y'all broke up, and now they're saying,
I'm going to expose this picture.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
That is violence.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Or you know, someone who is stalking you online so
you know they know your next move, all of a
sudden they show up at that place. I think, as
you just said, we tend to think domestic violence is.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
The black eye eye and the broken arm.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Other ways, there are harmdoers that they know how many
miles it takes for the person to go to work,
so they're checking their car when they come back home
to see if they really drove those miles. Or you
know you earn money or earn you know, have a paycheck,
but you don't have access to that paycheck, or they're
(28:03):
calling your job so you're in danger of losing the job.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
All of those things are pieces of domestic islands.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
And then the thing that we often don't see is
just controlling behavior right where you have to constantly check in.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Those things are how domestic balance manifests.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
This has been wonderfully informative, and I know that our
listeners appreciate that. Before we let you go, could you
do me one more kindness again. Let everyone know what
resources are available to them, where to go, where to
tap in social media websites, all the above.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Sure you can find us at www dot ujimacommunity dot
org online. That's where you'll find tip sheets and fact
sheets and opportunities to reach out and to have us come
to your community. You can find us on social media
at UJIMA Community, on Instagram, on Facebook, taft channel, all
(29:03):
the things, and then we can be reached by phone
at eight four four seven seven Ujima eight four four
seven seven Ujima.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
You are an inspiring person and the work that you
do is inspired work. It is an honor again to
share time and space with you and count myself and
Q among your brothers. If you ever need some additional
support in the future, we're happy to amplify any messaging
(29:37):
that you need to get across this country, especially when
it comes to protecting black women, because that's kind of
our deal. So thank you so much once again, ladies
and gentlemen. Karma Cotman, the CEO of UJIMA, the National
Center on Violence against Women in the Black Community, who
also leads policy work with legislators and government agencies on
behalf of survivors Thank you so much. Stick around, will
(29:58):
be back and more after this
Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
welcome to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our mission
is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. I am your host,
Ramsay's joh in the Saddle, and we got a couple
special guests in store for you today. Stay tuned later
on the show. Tyler mcbrian, the managing editor of law Fair,
joins us to discuss the Justice Department deleting press files.
But right now, Karma Cottman joins us to discuss violence
(00:21):
against women in the Black community. Karma Cottman is CEO
of EUJIMA, the National Center on Violence against Women in
the Black Community, where she leads policy work with legislators
and government agencies on behalf of survivors. A Washington, DC
native with over twenty years in the field, she previously
served a decade as executive director of the DC Coalition
(00:44):
Against Domestic Violence and a decade at the National Network
to End Domestic Violence directing national policy as VP of
Policy and Emerging Issues. Today, she also sits on the
steering committee of the Institute on Domestic Violence in the
African Community and the Policy Partner for Communities of Color,
and she is our guest today, Karma Katman, Welcome to
(01:06):
the show. It is an honor to be sharing time
and space with you, a person who does such amazing work.
How are things in your world today?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Things are going well. Thank you so much for taking
the time. I know that often this issue is not
something that feels palatable, and so I am so grateful
to radio and media for bringing this conversation into the
houses and homes of those individuals that may need assistance.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Indeed, that's exactly what we're here for now. I was
able to paint a little bit of a picture and
give our listeners a bit of an idea of the
sort of work that you do. But you know, you
are obviously in a much better position to tell that story,
So talk to us a little bit. Tell us about
Yujima and the work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So UJIMA is a national organization, we are culturally specific,
so in thean of Fubu for us by us addressing violence,
sexual assault and community violence in the black community. We,
as you noted, provide training and technical assistance. So we
go out into communities. We work with first responders so
(02:17):
that they are responsive to the needs of black survivors.
We do community education and mobilization. So right now I'm
at the Essence Festival doing work here. We'll be doing
a screening shortly of is God Is and so bringing
these conversations to our community in the ways that feel
Germane to us. We do policy and legislative advocacy, so
(02:39):
we're working on Capitol Hill to ensure that the needs,
particularly of Black survivors, are met in policies and legislation.
And then we have a research and evaluation work group
that really looks at ensuring that research is telling the
stories of black women, black children, black men that have
been impacted by these issues.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I love that I was fortunate enough to have a
conversation with a woman who helmed a domestic violence shelter
many moons ago, and one of the things that she
wished that she could have done was either develop a
(03:20):
department or procure some support because she felt that she
was not able to really penetrate in the black community
specifically in the way that she would have wanted to.
So obviously that's something that you're taken care of. Because
cultural competency in dealing with these issues in soofar as
(03:43):
black women are concerned is sort of right at the
center of your mission. Do I have that right?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It is core to the way that we were understanding
the complexities of healing for black women, how we healed differently,
how we talk about how we expect sperience violence differently.
Oftentimes you hear people use words victims, survivors, and Black
women don't always see ourselves in that terminology because we're
meant to be strong and resilient, and so when we
(04:12):
use those terms, they don't necessarily always speak to us.
And I'll talk later about why we need to get
over that, but that just rings true. And then for
our community, very often, you know, when we talk about
domestic violence, there is a perception that it means that
we're ostracizing or we no longer care about the black
(04:32):
men and black.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Boys in our community.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And so part of our work at UJIMA is talking
about how our community as a whole is impacted by
domestic violence and sexual assault and also community violence, and
why it's important to lift up and talk about the
safety and center the safety of black women and girls.
But that does not in any way mean that we
don't care for love and honor and respect the lives
(04:57):
of black men and boys as well. Us want to
make sure that we are not requiring black women to
sacrifice their own safety to care for the men and
boys in their lives.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Sure, sure, let's go with that for a little bit.
It sounds to me like there are there's apprehension maybe
maybe barriers is the right word, that might be specific
to black women that might prevent them from seeking help
or might muddy the waters a bit for our listeners
(05:29):
that might not recognize these signs in their own lives
and the lives of you know, the women and family
members and whatnot that they love. Talk about some of
these barriers and what would prevent a woman from actually
seeking some help to elevator circumstances.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, the first thing that you just noted is we
don't always understand what domestic violence is, what sexual assault is,
so we don't recognize those signs, right, and so domestic
violence can be those controlling behaviors in our relationships. And
sometimes what's very interesting is sometimes they're the very things
that can attract us that then become harmful to us.
(06:13):
So that extreme possession someone who you meet them, you've
been dating for two days and all of a sudden
they're in love, they're showering you with gifts, they're.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Saying, it's just me and you against the world. You know,
you're You're all I have.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Those things can sometimes draw us in, but then they
can also be harmful when it comes to isolating you
from family and friends when you need assistance, when it
comes to controlling behaviors, putting you down, jealousy. And I
always say to women, if you get if you get
an early sense that something is wrong, you have wonderful
(06:49):
sixth sense, right, and so you've got to act.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
On those things.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
But we don't always know, and so recognizing those those
sort of red flags, but then they're are as you
also noted, and I think it's really important that you
note this, is that there are particular barriers for us
as black women when we're looking for assistance. And so
I mentioned earlier that idea that we're strong black women,
(07:13):
we are resilient, That very strengthen us can be the
thing that keeps us from telling because we're not supposed
to be victims. We're not supposed to be weak, we're
not supposed to need help, and so when we're in
those situations, you know, it feels uncomfortable or that becomes
an internal and an external barrier. Black women often are
(07:36):
reticent to call law enforcement for all the reasons we know, right,
the historical trauma of being engaged in systems is very real,
and so because of that, we're sometimes often afraid to
call law enforcement. We're worried about, you know, what's going
to happen to us, are they going to harm us
when they respond? But also we care for that person
(07:57):
who has caused us harm, so we don't want the
negative to happen to them. We you know, for good
or for bad. We do have a no snitche culture,
and so we don't want to you know, bring other
people into our personal relationships, so that again causes us
to harm.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
And then sometimes in.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The programs that we're seeking assistance, we know that there
isn't an understanding of the cultural context that we're coming from, right,
and so we don't see ourselves in the programming, and
so that too can be a barrier. When you combine
all of those things and the images of black women,
the images around sexuality and hyper sexuality, the images of
(08:42):
strength or not thereof those things can also keep us
from reporting stories about what happens. I hear so many
black women that go to tell about their own experiences,
and the first thing they hear is why'd you stay?
I would never right, or girl, you got a good man,
(09:02):
so deal with what you gotta deal with because he's
taking care of the family and there aren't many like them.
And so those are messages not only to that survivor,
but to the children that are watching, to the nieces
that are watching, to community that are watching, to say
that it's not safe for us to tell.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Karma. Cottman is with us from UJIMA? Do us a favorite?
Can you plug like the website, social media, all that
sort of stuff. I'mnna ask you again before we wrap,
but I want to feed this information throughout our conversation
to listeners because this feels important absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Our website is ujimacommunity dot org and all of our
social moves are ujima Community as well.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Ujima Is you j I m A so yeah? If
you feel so inclined, be sure to check that out.
The first thing I want to say is that around here,
one of the things that Q and Iq is my
co host. One of the things that he and I
say every time we have a mic and an audience
(10:16):
is that we feel like it's not even a matter
of feeling. We know that black women are as close
to God as we can be on this planet, and
we can make a scientific case for that argument. We
can make a moral case for that argument, we can
make a philosophical case for that argument. And I challenge
(10:36):
anybody to meet either of us, certainly not both of
us in that battlefield. We understand the calling, and we
like to think that that is a widely shared belief,
but we'd be foolish to assume that everybody feels that way.
(10:59):
You mentioned something that we have to deal with. We
have to deal with this on this show quite a bit.
We constantly challenge systems of oppression that exists in this country,
not the least of which is the carcal system. And
so to a much lesser degree, I would imagine that
(11:22):
even for folks like us that hold black women in
such a high regard and black people, it is our
job to do that and it is our duty to
do that as well that when it comes to considering
incorporating police or other form of protection, you know, we're
(11:43):
the ones that will actually stop and say, what is
this black life worth? You know, this person does have
the potential to change, to grow, to develop. This is
a mistake and nobody is simply the worst thing that
they've ever done. And how do you judge someone in
their worst moment where their heart broken and they're afraid
and blah blah blah. Right, so we will have a
(12:04):
moment in pause and reflect. So I can only imagine
how much more intense that moment might be for a
woman who has loved amand who is now traumatizing or
brutalizing her. So I say that to say that I've
(12:24):
learned to respect that question, and I don't ask it
like I might have back in the day. Why did
you stay? Why didn't you ask for help? Why did
you not appeal to the systems that exist in the world.
But it took me a long time to get there.
I just realized that not everybody took my path, and
so a lot of people might still be asking that question.
(12:44):
I do want to mention that in the past, maybe
a few months, we had covered some stories of violence
against black women, high profile incidents, incidents involving children, you know,
all that sort of stuff. I can only imagine how
those stories hit you in the space where you were working.
(13:06):
So talk about what that means for you, talk about
maybe what people have learned from it, or maybe you
saw those as teachable moments. But you know, for our
listeners that might have forgotten, you know, maybe a bit
of a refresher because this is obviously something that affects
black people, and you know, I don't I don't associate
domestic violence with black people, but you know, in the
(13:29):
past few months, as I mentioned, it's something that I've
had to, you know, reconsider my position on So please.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
There's so much to unpack in that one question.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And so first let me start with saying thank you
to both you Ramsy Is into your your co host
Q for lifting up black women, because that too is
a part of the issue. Right Black women need to
know that black men support them, and so it's so
important to hear you say that and it's appreciated. And then,
(14:03):
you know, the issues around the car soural system are
something that we, even as organizations who address domestic violence,
struggle with. So just a few months ago, we brought
together six HBCUs to consider that very question. What would
(14:24):
be the response if there were no car sural system,
if we had to go outside of the car sural system.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
What would it look like, What does the context look like.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Can our community hold perpetrators or harmdoers accountable? What kinds
of tools does our community need to do that? So
that is a conversation and a through line that we're
having in all of the spaces of our community because
we've recognized historical trauma, we recognize harm that's placed not
(14:56):
only in the car soural system, but in the child
welfare system, in the criminal legal system, right, and so
there are these questions, but we also recognize that safety
is real and women are losing their lives.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
And that brings us.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
To what you talked about about doctor Serena Fairfax who
lost her lives, the horrendous murders that happened in Shreveport,
the murder of the pastor in North Carolina on Easter Sunday,
uh and and the names and stories go on and on,
and there are a couple of things in that unpacking
(15:36):
that for our community, it was traumatizing and also a
place of question because we didn't see ourselves in these murder, suicides,
murders of children, right, extreme incidences.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
If you had talked to any of us. We would
say that's not us, right, that's not what we do,
that's not a black person. And so so there was a.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Level setting around what that kind of violence looked like
for us. And then there was I think for many
in our community. I think this very real and telling
struggle around who to center in that space, right, because
people said, well, then there must be an extreme case
of mental health issue, right to lead a black man
(16:25):
to do X must mean that there is a mental
health issue. And so in some contexts we forgot about
talking about the victim because we were simply focused on
this just doesn't happen. So we got to address the
mental health issue. And what I argue my position as
a domestic violence advocate is it doesn't always happen to
(16:47):
that extent, but Black women are losing their lives every
day as a result of domestic violence. Black women are
nine times more likely to be murdered by an intimate
partner than and other communities in this country. Really we are, yes,
we are more likely to particularly when they're as a handgun.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Involved in the incident. And so the issue is not new,
The attention to the issue is new.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
The who we classified as victims is for some people
new and I think that the access to handguns is real.
The issues that are happening in our communities where you
have many black women who are losing jobs, black women
who were there winners in their homes, and so economic
(17:43):
issues are impacting us. Certainly mental health issues are impacting
our community.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
And so it makes.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Me circle back to this issue that you started with
Ramseys at first. Is one being able to center black
women and talking about the victimization in our community means
that we have to dispel a lot of mix about
how our communities function, what safety looks like in our communities,
what black women and black children have been struggling with
(18:15):
in our communities. We've got to be real about those situations.
But then we've got to say that that does not
define who our community is, right even the harmdoer, it
doesn't define who our community is. But we got to
make pathways for people to be to talk about what's
happening in their homes safely. We've got to familiarize ourselves
(18:36):
with the resources, and we've got to make sure that
those resources are culturally competent so that they understand what
victimization looks like from for us and how we seek help,
which is it just is different because of all the
cultural contexts and the cultural things that we name before.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
So let's go with that. I want to ask you
you sort of a two part question, and I think
both parts are are going to be important. You'll see
what I mean in a second. So I want to
talk to you about Ujima. Okay, Let's say, for instance,
(19:15):
there is a listener today who is dealing with domestic
violence in their home. Because you're in a good position
to articulate the resources that you could dedicate to a person.
Let's say they listen to our conversation, they reach out
to you at Ujima. What is it that Ujima can
(19:38):
bring to the table to help a person? That's part one,
and then part two is for people who are not
themselves in the middle of a domestic violence situation, Maybe
what is it that these people because I suspect there'll
be more people, what is it that these people should
(19:59):
know themselves or about Ujima. Maybe there's resources, whatever, But
you know, there's a conversation for people who want to
take action, and I think you're in a good position
to tell us all what we should be doing.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Absolute absolutely so, for survivors, if you dependent, If you
visit our website www dot ugimacommunity dot org, there are
resources on the website that direct you to local community
based organizations that are available. Many of them have shelter
and legal resources, advocates that can help navigate children's services,
(20:40):
a wide range of services. We also have on there,
and I always lived up the National Domestic Violence Hotline,
which is one eight hundred seven nine to nine safe
or one eight hundred seven nine to nine seven two
three three. The National Domestic Violence Hotline is available twenty
(21:01):
four hours a day, seven days a week, as are
most of the domestic violence programs that are included on
our website. There are also some fact sheets and tip sheets,
because again sometimes it's just about confirming that is this
truly domestic violence that I'm experiencing, and so people need
just access to that level of resources. And then for family,
(21:25):
for friends, for community members, for radio hosts, for barbers,
for uticians. There are a number of resources also available
on our website that talk about how do you talk
to a family member who discloses that it's a domestic
violence situation, how do you recognize that there is domestic
(21:51):
violence happening with your family member or friend, or just
with the neighbor across the street.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
How do you.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Provide resource sources to that individual. All of those things
are available on our site. We have some other resources
that are in multimedia modalities. So we have this Connected
and Protected that's really geared towards young people between the
ages of sixteen to twenty four because young people experience
(22:21):
domestic violence at the very highest rates that age range,
and so really talking about technology usage, they're using a
whole different modality and experience and violence, whether it's you know,
their pictures being exposed or someone that can track them
because they posted everything online, to you know, making sure
(22:43):
that parents know how they talk to children about domestic violence.
So all of those sources are available. The other thing
that UJIMA can do is if you are, you know,
at a church, or if you are in a community orization,
or if you are at the barbershop and you need
someone just to come out and provide training and do
(23:07):
some community education. That is something that we can also offer.
So all of those things, you can request that kind
of assistance through our website. You can contact us through
one eight four four seven seven UJIMA. So that's the
phone line one eight four four seven seven ujima, or
(23:27):
you can access us on our website. The most important thing, though,
RAMS is this idea that we've got to educate ourselves,
so use those talking points. I often have to remind
people that most domestic violence survivors are most victims of
domestic violence, their first outreach is not going to be
(23:50):
to a domestic violence program. Their first outreach is going
to be to a family member, a friend of someone
who's doing they're getting their hair done, they're telling the story,
a doctor, and so it's going to a pastor, is
going to be to someone else that they trust, and
the response of that person is critical in that moment.
(24:15):
And so the first thing that you have to do
is believe them. The first thing that you've got to
do is lead with that perception. And then this other piece,
and I'll just drop it in really quickly, is the
recognition that for most survivors, it takes five to seven
times for them to attempt to leave before they actually
(24:36):
do leave. And so what can get frustrating for us
is we have this person that we recognize all the
signs and we've said, girl, this is dangerous, get out
and then they're back with the person and so we
throw up our hands and we're like, I'm done with
this because I told them and they didn't leave. But
we've got to know that it takes five to seven times,
(24:58):
and that's because it is the scene most dangerous time
for a survivor, the moment that they say they're going
to leave. The vast majority of the homicides that we've
seen that you talked about earlier, they had left or
they were preparing.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
To leave the harmdoer and that person.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Committed murder, right And so it's recognizing that it's not
that simple. This person has all their private information. They
often have access to their bank accounts, they know how
they the route they take to drop off their kids,
they know where their mother lives. And so the survivor
or the victim is trying to navigate all of those things,
(25:41):
keeping themselves safe, but also keeping all the other people
that they are in contact with safe. And so those
are all the things that for us as family members
and friends we've got to keep in front of mind
when we're providing advice. Is that one believe in them,
and two recognizing that the moment that they start to
tell and the moment that they say they're going to leave,
(26:03):
that is the most dangerous time for them. So they
are the expert in how they've got to navigate that karma.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Cottman is with us from UJIMA and you can find
out more at ujimacommunity dot org. Just briefly, and I
apologize that it has to be brief, but I'd love
for you to speak to domestic violence because you mentioned
a few different ways, and I don't think I had
ever conceived of domestic violence like that before. But you
(26:31):
mentioned photos, and there was something else that you mentioned too,
and when you think about it, I guess that could qualify.
So for folks that don't know, paint a fuller picture
of what because I think I would have thought violence
wouldn't have been simply an argument. It would have been like
once it turns physical, then it becomes domestic violence. Please
elaborate a bit more on what domestic violence looks like
(26:55):
in the real world.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Well, you're right, domestic violence be verbal, it can be emotional,
it can be financial, it can be psychological, and it
can be physical. It can be online violent. So we
are seeing an increase in technological violence. So what does
that mean that means someone who you sent a new
(27:18):
picture to your boyfriend, y'all broke up, and now they're saying,
I'm going to expose this picture.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
That is violence.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Or you know, someone who is stalking you online so
you know they know your next move, all of a
sudden they show up at that place. I think, as
you just said, we tend to think domestic violence is.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
The black eye eye and the broken arm.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Other ways, there are harmdoers that they know how many
miles it takes for the person to go to work,
so they're checking their car when they come back home
to see if they really drove those miles. Or you
know you earn money or earn you know, have a paycheck,
but you don't have access to that paycheck, or they're
(28:03):
calling your job so you're in danger of losing the job.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
All of those things are pieces of domestic islands.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
And then the thing that we often don't see is
just controlling behavior right where you have to constantly check in.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Those things are how domestic balance manifests.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
This has been wonderfully informative, and I know that our
listeners appreciate that. Before we let you go, could you
do me one more kindness again. Let everyone know what
resources are available to them, where to go, where to
tap in social media websites, all the above.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Sure you can find us at www dot ujimacommunity dot
org online. That's where you'll find tip sheets and fact
sheets and opportunities to reach out and to have us come
to your community. You can find us on social media
at UJIMA Community, on Instagram, on Facebook, taft channel, all
(29:03):
the things, and then we can be reached by phone
at eight four four seven seven Ujima eight four four
seven seven Ujima.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
You are an inspiring person and the work that you
do is inspired work. It is an honor again to
share time and space with you and count myself and
Q among your brothers. If you ever need some additional
support in the future, we're happy to amplify any messaging
(29:37):
that you need to get across this country, especially when
it comes to protecting black women, because that's kind of
our deal. So thank you so much once again, ladies
and gentlemen. Karma Cotman, the CEO of UJIMA, the National
Center on Violence against Women in the Black Community, who
also leads policy work with legislators and government agencies on
behalf of survivors Thank you so much. Stick around, will
(29:58):
be back and more after this
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