April 9, 2021 • 39 mins
Two cold case murders are connected by one obscure clue, an orange sock. Barbara “Bobbi” Jo Oberholtzer, 29, and Annette Kay Schnee, 22, disappeared in separate incidents on the same day in 1982. Both were hitchhiking. Their bodies are found 6 months apart. Both were shot. Who killed these women and what is the significance of the orange sock?
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- James Shelnutt - 27 years Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective, Swat officer Lawyer www.ShelnuttLawFirm.com
- Dr. Alan Blotcky PhD - Clinical Psychologist (Birmingham) specializing in Family, Divorce, and Criminal Cases
- Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network
- Shera LaPoint - Genetic Genealogist, Founder, The Gene Hunter www.TheGeneHunter.com, Twitter: @LapointShera
- Angenette Levy - Emmy-nominated Reporter & Anchor, Twitter: @Angenette5
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two beautiful women seemingly unrelated
and both go missing. Is it a coincidence or is
it a clue? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The first
(00:37):
thing you do in any investigation is look and determine
who is your victim. That way you may be able
to figure out who is the killer. Take a listen
to our friends at crime online dot com. By all accounts,
twenty nine year old Bobby Oberholtzon has been happily married
for four and a half years, living with her husband
(00:58):
in Alma. Jeff Oberholten runs an appliance repair business. She
is a receptionist. The day Bobby Oberholtzen goes missing, she
leaves for work around seven fifteen am. Jeff Oberholtsen tells
Unsolved Mysteries that it was a common occurrence for his
wife to hitchhike. Everybody hitshiden. You guys to know the
people in the town, and they got to know you,
(01:19):
and they'd look for you to take you over and
back if you needed to ride around. Dinnertime, Oberholtsen calls
her husband to let him know that she was out
with friends and would get a ride home, so according
to the husband, she is alive and well at dinner
time and was getting a ride home. Let's analyze what
(01:39):
we know already with me an all star panel to
try and apply logic to an illogical situation. Twenty seven
years metro major case detective, now lawyer at James at
shell Nutt at shell Nutt Law Firm dot com. Renowned
psychologists and joining us out of the Birmingham's Station. Doctor
(02:00):
Allen Blockkey, PhD. You can find him at Alan Blockkey
at att dot net. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author
of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a
new series on the True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaison's Death
investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, genetic genealogist, founder of The gene Hunter,
(02:24):
and you can find her at the gene Hunter dot com.
Scher at la point but first to Anjanette Leavy, Emmy
nominated reporter and anchor, and you can find Anjanette on
Twitter at Anjanette five the number five, Anjanette, What do
we know about the first woman we're discussing? Twenty nine
(02:45):
year old Bobby Oberholtzer, apparently happily married. Yeah, and as
her husband said, Nancy, which is kind of shocking, But
I guess back then it's not so shocking that everybody hitchhights,
which just seems incredibly dangerous. We've heard of so many
cases over the years with women being kind of scooped
(03:06):
up and taken advantage of by predators who are picking
up hitchhikers. So obviously she's a happily married woman out
going to work and then going out with friends. Internet. Leavy,
You're absolutely correct. Everything seemingly normal and at a time
when hitchhiking was the norm. Believe it or not, I've
(03:27):
actually picked up a hitchhiker. Oh what was I thinking?
Obviously I survived this woman, Bobby Oberholzer. I'm looking right
at her. She looks like fair Fawcett with her hair
not quite as puffy, but really gorgeous. Lady with the wings,
(03:47):
working in brecon Ridge, Colorado. Hitchhiking. Mm. Interesting. So she
goes missing, but that evening, the husband says he gets
a phone call from her saying that she had been
out with her friends and she was getting a ride home.
(04:09):
M take a listen to Jackie Howard a crime online
by two Am. Bobby Oberholzen had not returned home. Jeff
finds out from her friends that she left the bar
around seven thirty. He tries to report her missing, but
it's told my police that it's too early to file
a report. The next morning, thirty miles outside of Breckinridge,
(04:30):
a farmer finds Bobby's driver's license. What does that mean? Strange?
Un James Shelnut, twenty seven years Metro major case including
swat now defense lawyer. What do you mean it's too
soon to report somebody missing? I mean, if my twins
aren't right there for pickup at three thirty, I'm calling
(04:50):
cops and they darn well but a launch an investigation prompto. Yeah,
you know, of course Stacey progressed and matured law enforcement
wise over case. But you know, normally, when an adult
goes missing, there's at least a twenty four hour window
that police away before they follow a missing person's report,
and that's probably what they're referring to here. No, adults
(05:12):
are a little bit different than kids. Sure, if a
kid is missing, you know that the status now is
that you know immediately police start a massive investigation. But
with an adult they handle it differently. Okay, So your
answer is with children they started investigation with With adults,
they don't. That really didn't answer my question. I think
(05:34):
what it goes to, frankly to doctor Alan Blockkeey clinical
psychologists joined me out of Birmingham. When a woman goes missing,
I've heard it a million times. Oh, she ran off
with a boyfriend, She's laid up in hotels somewhere, she's this,
she's that. They always seem to explain it away, and
you know what, it's very rarely explained away rationally. Why
(06:00):
is that? Well, And you're absolutely right, And what it
shows is that time is of the essence. You're going
to sit around for twenty four hours. Twenty four hours
is a very long time. Bad things happen. And then
when people go missing like that, as you said, Nancy,
it's rarely an instant explanation. So time is of the essence.
(06:22):
And that leads me, doctor Blockkey, to what we call
routine evidence. And I don't mean run of the meal evidence.
I mean evidence of routine. She had never not come
home before. That had never happened with Bobby Joe Oberholtz
her She came home every night and say hey, I'm
(06:43):
catching a rod I'm going to be home, but she
never made it. Why cops didn't pick up on the
fact of how extraordinary that was for her, how out
of the norm that was for her. I don't know.
But don't you agree, doctor Alan Block or do you
that people like animals are typically creatures have happened? Of course,
(07:08):
we do the same thing over and over. It's not
like my twins are not going to come home from school,
say where's Mommy's mommy? Mommy's not cooking dinner tonight, where's mommy?
I'm going to bed, where's mommy? No, that's not happening. Now,
you're absolutely right, and that what that calls for is
just a couple of very quick important questions to get
the total context, to lead you to some very quick conclusion.
(07:30):
To Anginette Levy, Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, Anginette, where
again did Bobby Joe Aberholtz her go missing in brecon
Ridge is south of Breckinridge, Colorado, Actually, and she had
been out with friends, as you mentioned, and that she
was going to be home trying to figure out what
happened to Bobby Joe Aberholts her Now at the same time,
(07:55):
we're juggling cases. Let's talk about a net Schnee twenty
one years old. Take a listen to Casey AUTV nine.
Lydia Esquez, a nut Snee, was twenty one years old.
She was raised in Siux City but living in Colorado
at the time. I met Annette on Morningside Avenue at
the McDonald's. Scott Smith was a nuts Schnee's high school boyfriend.
(08:19):
I was instantly drawn to her. She was a beautiful girl,
and that was loyal and just really lovable. I mean,
everybody really liked her. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace a
(08:48):
nut Schnee was twenty one years old. She was raised
in Siux City but living in Colorado at the time.
I met Annette on Morningside Avenue at the McDonald's. Scott
Smith was a nuts Shenie's high school boyfriend. I was
instantly drawn to her. She was a beautiful girl, and
that was loyal and just really lovable. I mean, everybody
(09:12):
really liked her. For those of you just joining us
to beautiful young women one one, one twenty nine who
looked very similar physically go missing coincidence or a clue.
You just heard the high school sweetheart of twenty one
year old Annette Schni described me her as lovable, loyal,
(09:36):
fun take a listen again to our friends at casey Au.
After high school, both of them left Sioux City. Smith
says he wrote Shen wanting to visit her, but he
never heard back, and that's when he began to worry.
Annet's mom called me up and she said, good, what
did you mean when you said you were worried about Annette?
And I said, well, you know, I just I hadn't
(09:57):
heard from her, and I was just a little concerned
about her. And she said, well, Annette's roommates have called
and said that she didn't show up but worked last
night and she hadn't showed up at at their house.
She was reported missing for months. So let me understand this.
Back to you and Jeanette Levy, reporter and anchor. So
(10:18):
this high school friends trying to reconnect, high school boyfriend
trying to reconnect because he had written her and never
heard back. But her mom says she didn't show up
for work or back home and then was reported missing.
And Jeanette, what do we know about where she worked,
who reported her missing? Where she was last saying what
do we know, well, we know that Annette was working
(10:40):
in Breckinridge, very similar to Bobby Joe. They were both
working in that city. So in these these happened on
these happened very close together. They both looked very similar.
They're both beautiful, young blonde women, you know. Very interesting.
I will never forget doctor Allen block Key, clinical psychologist
(11:02):
joining us. I was prosecuting what I believed to be
a serial killer and finally got him on one Jane Doe.
And because he left DNA that time and had no
idea who he was, it was not getting a match
(11:23):
in the system, and we didn't know who the victim
was by the end of the case. Okay, by the
time I took it to trial, I found a defendant
who was a sheep in Atlanta. I found his girlfriend
who had thrown him out. She looked almost identical to
(11:47):
the dead victim. And I found a previous rape agasalt
attempted murder of victim of his She looked like the
other two. So as part of my argument in closing statements,
I held up I had it drawn a creation of
(12:14):
what the dead victim looked like in life, a recry,
and I compared it to a blown up photo of
the lover who kicked him out and the other victim.
They all looked just alike. And I argued, who else
would kill her other than the man who was rejected
(12:35):
by her? And that jury did not need a shrink,
no offense to figure it out. What does that mean?
Like Ted Bundy? When you look at his victims, so
many of them are thin, frail looking, petite slight white
females with dark hair parted in the middle. They all
(12:57):
looked so alike to me. I think that's exactly the
thread that ties it together. You know, I'm thinking back,
what can I learn from Bobby Joe's case that may
help me in Annette Schneeze case. I know that night
the husband, Jeff had made dinner. He knew she was
(13:18):
coming home. He was waiting on her to eat supper.
How many times have we done that? Before? He falls asleep,
wakes up at midnight, discovered she didn't come home. He
waited still she had not returned. That's when he learned
she had left her friends. Around seven thirty pm. The
next morning, a farmer who lives thirty miles outside Breckinridge
(13:43):
finds Bobby Joe's license, Jeff and two friends go to
pick it up, and on the way, the husband Jeff,
spots something blue colored out in a snowy field. What
did he find? Take a listen to our forensic crime
online dot com. A farmer finds Bobby's driver's license. As
(14:06):
Jeff Oberholtzen and two friends go to pick it up,
he spots Bobby's blue backpack in a snow covered field.
A blood spattered glove and some bloody tissues are found
with it. What do we learn from that? To Joseph
Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jackson State University and author, we
learn that Bobby's blue backpack is in a snow covered field,
(14:29):
a blood spattered glove and bloody tissues found with it.
And what's interesting to me is that the husband finds it.
Not the police, of course, that put suspicion on the
husband right off the bat, but he had friends with him.
Tell me how snow would impact the crime scene? Well,
(14:51):
I gotta tell you, Nancy. First off, there a couple
of pieces here which snow. One of the things that
you're going to look for obviously are going to be
like if it's not, if it hasn't snowed recently. You're
going to look for things like footprints in the snow
because they have, particularly these elevations, it's going to remain intact.
(15:11):
He'll be able to appreciate those around around the area
where these items are found, so the local law enforcement
can go up there and actually do castings of these. Now,
I think that it's really interesting here. We're talking about
a profile where we have a backpack that is found
in one location and along with these tissues and these
(15:33):
other things. But what do we learn about her body? Well,
her body's fifteen miles away, Nancy. So if we're developing
a profile, we know that whoever's doing this is driving
a car. It's not like she just wandered out there
and suddenly deposit her backpack in the snow nonetheless and
(15:55):
subfreezing temperatures, and then wound up in another location because
she walked there. We know that whoever is handling this
is using some kind of conveyance and driving them around.
And again, not only do you have a scene there,
but whoever is depositing, whoever deposited her body, you've got
a scene within this car because this is literally a
(16:18):
mobile crime scene. That this individual is driving around in
You're gonna find blood there, You're gonna find hair and fiber,
You're gonna find all these other things that have left,
that have been left deposited, that are the essence of
her coming back to the initial location. Wow, And I
was thinking of simply there were no footprints in the
(16:39):
snow of her coming back. That's what I thought you
were going to say, But you said a whole lot more.
Of course, it's typical SOP standard operating procedure for the
husband to be considered the first suspect when you find
evidence that a wife has been killed. Right off the bat.
(17:01):
It was determined that the blood found on Bobby's gloves
and tissues with her backpack while it belonged, they thought
it was hers, but DNA testing later determined it came
from a nail, further indicating it could be the husband.
(17:33):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, guys, we were talking about
the disappearance of two beautiful young women. They look both
of them so similar to each other, and to get
a mental picture, they both remind me of Farra Faucet
when she was about twenty five years old. Bringing in
sheryla point to analyze blood found at the scene where
(17:54):
obviously Bobby Joe Oberholtzer was kidnapped. So what about blood
can tell you whether it's a male or a female? Yes, Nancy,
a female will have two X chromosomes and a male
will have a Y in an X. So immediately you're
going to notice that difference when you do an analysis
(18:15):
that you're dealing with a female's DNA and with a
male's DNA, and you can separate that DNA. Now with
the techniques that are available, it makes it very obvious
that you have different profiles. So sheeryl a point genetic genealogist.
(18:38):
It comes down to one chromosome and you can tell
if it's a man or a woman just like that, Yes, ma'am. Wow,
Okay when you say it sounds so simple to a
Janette Levy Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, we immediately know
that so wrong. At the beginning, when they thought this
(18:58):
was all Bobby jo Oberholtzer's blood turned out to be
a man's blood. Was it determined to be or not
to be the husband's blood? Well, it was determined not
to be the husband's blood. It was a male's blood.
But back when this happened, they didn't have that technology,
the DNA technology, so you would have been going by
(19:20):
blood type and things like that. Back and when this happened.
When you're taking a look at the scene, James Shelnutt,
you find her backpack, you find bloody tissue, One of
her gloves are bloody. I would immediately think that's where
either a kidnap or a rape occurred. I'd be curious
how she got there. But it tells me there's definitely
(19:41):
a struggle right there, or or was her backpack and
the other items just thrown there? What does the scene
tell you? This crom scene was interesting to me when
I looked at it, because it could have told you
a couple of different things. You know, my first dolt
and I looked at this case, was that it was
(20:03):
impressive to me that the original detectives and prosecutor restrained
themselves from prosecuting the husband. You're right, he would have
been the primed suspect in this. And you know, what
is pretty strong that his footprints would only foot prints there.
So that's one way that it could have been looked at.
But when you look at this, you're right there there
is a struggle that is occurrent. Wait a minute, As
(20:24):
a matter of fact, you're exactly correct, James Shelnut. Because
police considered Jeff overholts her a suspect in both cases.
They thought it was more than a coincidence, and he
had known both victims, and that he was the one
that discovered his wife's backpack to Ajeanette Levy, So the
(20:45):
husband knows both the victims. Crazy. I mean, if you
think about it, how can you He must be like
the unluckiest guy on the planet. How do you know
both your wife and then this cocktail waitress. You just
happened to know her. And he was quoted as saying
he had met her and given him his business card.
So of course the police are going to focus on him.
(21:07):
So it's just it's unbelievable. And then he does something
that you never see a target in a criminal case
to do. He takes a lie detector test. What happened,
Jeanette Levy? As far as a lie detector test goes,
he passed. Wow, he passed it. So he passes a
(21:29):
lie detector test. To you, doctor Alan Blockkey, clinical psychologist,
Joinings Side of Birmingham. You always hear about people who
quote beat a lie detector test. We were watching one
of the oceans. Oceans, you know, I guess there's eleven twelve,
thirteen dollars eight and a guy in the movie, of course,
beats a lie detector test. By every time, every time
(21:52):
he's asked a question, whether it's what's your name? Or
is your name Nancy Grace, he steps down on attack
in his shoe. So every time he answers a question,
he's in distress. So when he lies and shows distress,
it's no different than all the other times he's answered
a question. He's sweating. He's like, oh, you know, while
(22:16):
he's taking this poly But I find it really difficult,
you know, to believe it when somebody says, hey, I
beat the polly, it's hard to beat a polygraph. Doctor. Yes,
that's very rare, and I think that's more dramatics than
in reality. The fact that he passed the polygraph I
(22:36):
think is meaningful. Well, it was very They must have
thought it was meaningful too, because then you have Annette
Schnigo missing. The search is on. Take a listen to
our friends at crime online. Two hours after the backpack
is discovered, Bobby Oberholtzen's body is found fifteen miles away.
The only footprints found by police are Bobby's, and a
(22:59):
plastic cord is tied around one of her wrists. And
of course that orange sock. An orange sock? Wait? Am
I hearing that we're gonna go forward with a murder
investigation because of an orange sock? Okay? Now I know
(23:20):
that her body has been found fifteen miles away. The
only footpints found by police, they think are bobbies with
a plastic cord tied around one of her wrists. Well,
that's a DNA dream right there, to have a plastic
cord tied around the victim's wrist. When I say a
DNA dream come true, what do I mean by that?
(23:41):
Joseph Scott Morgan, You've got a plastic chord wrapped around
the victim's wrist. Yeah, in today's context, that's going to
leave you have the opportunity to pick up what's refer
too as touch DNA. And remember, if you're talking about
a plastic chord, this is a surface which you could
deposit dead skin cells. One. And what's really interesting is
(24:05):
in order to get that chord around her, it has
to be tied, doesn't it, Nancy, So it would have
to be logic. Would did take that it was being
tied by the perpetrator, who who left this woman in
this condition, So we believe that his DNA would be deposited.
They are also in addition to that, any other points
(24:25):
of contact on the body where he would have picked
her up, carried her, deposited her, I hate to say,
but had done things with the body post mortem or
maybe anti mortem. All of these things are going to
come into play. Are you talking about, among other things,
wire Man always so worried about the rape as opposed
to the murder. You know, I need a shrink for that,
(24:48):
But go ahead, well, you know, we begin to think
about all of these opportunities to harvest the DNA that's
going to come off of her body. And keep in mind,
as Anjeanette had said earlier, the reality is is that
during this time period, the only thing we had to
go on was ABO blood grouping. That's how we identified
(25:12):
people back then, and right now today we've come light
years ahead of that. We've advanced beyond that in order
to get people identified. But back then all they had
was ABO blood groupings. That's why This case is such
a testament to the investigators in the past because Nancy,
(25:32):
this evidence has been preserved for years and years and
years and years time stories with Nancy Grace. Two beautiful
(25:53):
young women go missing. Is it a coincidence or a clue?
We know what happened with Bobby Joe Oberholtz her, but
what about Annette Schnie. Take a listen to our friend
Leddy of esquiz Casey AUTV. We had to wait six
(26:16):
months until we got news that annex body had been found.
She'd been found lying face down on the on the
edge of a creek. She died from a single gunshot wound.
She is somebody I always looked up to. She would
do my hair, and she'd do my makeup and paint
my fingernails. And she acted more like the caregiver. She
(26:39):
was with me a lot of babysitting me. Cindy French
describes her sister as outgoing and goofy. It's almost obscured
sometimes when we're searching for forensic clues and trying to
make sense of a scene, to think about the person. Funny, beautiful, caregiver, outgoing, goofy.
Even Cindy is describing her sister Annette Schnee Ajeanette Levy.
(27:07):
Did I hear this correctly? An orange sock is found
near the body Bobby Joe Oberholtzer. Yeah, that's right. And
the orange sock Nancy did not belong to Bobby Joe.
So it was something that was kind of puzzling to
investigators where this orange sock just would have come from.
Two murders. You know, I don't believe in coincidence when
(27:27):
it comes to criminal law. Take a listen to our
friend at crime online. Two murders seemingly unrelated. The body
of twenty nine year old Bobby Oberholtzen is found near
a scenic overlook five miles south of Breckenridge, Colorado. She
had been shot twice. There's very little evidence at the scene. Nearby,
(27:49):
along with her house keys, police find an orange sock.
Six months later, the body of twenty one year old
Annette Schnee is discovered near a creek thirteen miles away.
She also has been shot. Imagine the officer's surprised when
they find Schnei is wearing the mate to the orange sock.
So an orange sock found near the first body. The
(28:10):
second body found months later wearing the mate to the
orange sock. James Shell at twenty seven years in law enforcement,
now defense lawyer, did you hear that? Yeah, that's pretty strong.
You know in a case where you know, if you
rule the husband out, you know, you think, okay, we've
(28:32):
not identified a suspect. We've got two different bodies that
are out there are two different murders. Are they connected?
And you know, in this particular case where you can't
find a connection of a human being between the two,
this sock is significant. It is significant because it almost
(28:54):
with certainty links these two murders. So if you find
the guy who did the first murder, he also got
the guy who did the second, and the owner of
the sock, I'm not sure. Take a listen to this.
So what is the significance of the orange sock? Both
Bobby Oberholtzen and Anete Schnee were last seen hitchhiking. Police
believed that the killer picked up Schnee around five pm,
(29:16):
drove her twenty miles south of Breckenridge, and sexually assaulted
her in his vehicle. In a hurry to put her
clothes back on, Shnee put on one long sock of
her own and an orange footy and tried to escape.
She was shot in the back and left in the snow.
Police say the killer apparently returned to Breckenridge, where he
picked up Bobby and also tried to rape her. Oberholtzen
(29:36):
apparently fought back and tried to escape, knocking the match
to the orange footy out of the vehicle. She was
shot twice as she escaped and bled to death in
the deep snow, thus explaining why there's only one set
of prince out in that snow and they belonged to
the victims. She was shot at a range where the
(29:58):
perp didn't have to get into the snow. Explain the
significance of that, just Scott Morgan, and the significance both
victims shot dead, and what we can learn from ballistics,
Oh well, ballistic matching I think is key here. They're
looking at what's referred to as a thirty eight caliber
or three fifty seven magnum caliber round. They did not
(30:23):
recover the firearm itself, but they did recover projectiles which
can be matched. And of course we know about ballistic
fingerprinting with the lands and grooves that are left behind,
the striations that are left behind on the bullet, and
so it is like a fingerprint. If you recover one
from one body, another from another body, and they are
(30:43):
very similar within you know, ninety percentile, you're going to
have effectively what can be scientifically provable in court. That's significant.
And also there's nothing essentially left behind with this weapon.
You don't have expended cartridges and this sort of thing,
because this is a revolver that's being used in a
(31:06):
case like this. One more point, Nancy, that I think
is it's critical here. One of the reports talks about
how Machinee's body, her clothing was actually in disarray. I
heard one reporter say that she quickly dressed. There's also
another possibility with serialized killings, and I've seen this with
(31:28):
my own eyes with several series I've worked over the
course of my career. Serial killers will literally treat dead
bodies like dolls. They'll undress them and then redress them
and this sort of thing, and sometimes it's left as
a marker for this behavior that they've been engaged in.
And this is what's really ominous. It really gives me
(31:50):
a thought, are these the only two victims that might
be out there? You know? Who did that? Is Ted
Bundy who would apply to bathe the dead bodies, redo
their hair and makeup and readdress them. Doctor Alan Blocke,
I really need to shrink right now. Why would you
kill a woman then bathe her, redo her hair and
(32:13):
makeup and redress her. I think it's a psychopath with
clear sexual deviations and perversions. And this is a very
disturbed person who did this and did it more than once.
And so this is not just anybody. This is not
(32:36):
somebody fashion. This is a psychopath. And we see the
threads that tie together. Does share La Point and a
genealogist founder of the gene Hunter not blue Jeans, g
e The gene Hunter Twitter at La Point, Shara, Shara,
(32:57):
what do you need to crack this case? See with
the advancement in DNA technology these days, we need a
profile that can be uploaded to genealogy site that can
find matches and shared ancestor. Take a listen, Cheryl a Point,
(33:19):
you're on point, pardon the pun. Take a listen to
Kerin Lee. At case n C TV four, Tory Mason
has learned it was DNA blood on a glove inside
one of the victim's backpacks that, along with advances in
technology that helped crack this case. Barbara Oberholtzer and a
Nat Schnee, we're seen hitchhiking near Breckinridge in January of
(33:40):
nineteen eighty two. Oberholtzer's body was found on Who's Your Past.
The next day, Schnee's body discovered in Park County. Six
months later. Back to you, Chryla point, you said, we
need genetic genealogy, we need a family tree. What is
jed match? How is that use? Sherff. Jedmatch is the
(34:02):
site that enthusiastic genealogists use because we always want to
find more cousins and DNA matches and put the puzzins together.
So jed match was invented by two men who were
an amateur genealogist. And if you test at one DNA
(34:23):
company and I test out another, instead of having to
test at all these different companies, we can upload our
results to jedmatch and compare the results. Take a listen
to Evan Krugel KdV RTV Fox thirty one. It's been
nearly four decades since Bobby, Joe Oberholtzer and Janet Schni
disappeared while hitchhiking separately outside of Brack and Rinch. I
(34:44):
cannot begin to understand the pain and sufferings their families
have had the face for nearly four decades. Today, Park
County officials announcing unarrest in the case thanks to DNA
founded one of the original crime scenes. In this case,
it was on a glove, it was blood. Mitch Morrissey
and United Data connect says that DNA did not match
any records in the state's database, so they had to
(35:06):
take it a step further. Searching for similar DNA through
an online ancestry website, you start to get people that
are potential relatives and what you're looking for is the
most common recent ancestor. So do you share a point.
How far back do you have to go? It's not
(35:27):
like this purps DNA just pops up on the registry.
You have to go way way back to like the
eighteen hundreds. Sometimes, yes, Nancy, And you know, these cases
are solved depending on the closest cousin that is found. Usually,
and in this case it was a third cousin, which
(35:47):
means you had to go all the way back to
second grade grandparents. We have sixteen second grade grandparents, eight couples,
and you have to be able to compare all these
DNA matches that you have access to to find which
of those couples this perpetrator descends from. Surel a point
You're going death. Come forearm in here. I'm just a
(36:12):
trial lawyer. Could you break it down a tiny bit more? Okay, Nancy,
When you build a family tree and you get to
your grade, your second grade grandparents, anyone who shared that
set of grandparents with you would be your third cousin.
(36:33):
Once that was found, they had to compare that cousin
to other matches that were on the site. Build out
family trees and find the connection. Who is the couple
that connects these DNA matches on you? Oh wait, wait,
you're saying that from the great grandparents. Yeah. I think
(36:58):
you're saying you get half of the DNA, but you
got to figure out the couple that gives that precise
full DNA because a bunch of third cousins have similar
DNAs but not exactly the right DNA. That's correct. You
need to find exactly which of the couples is connecting
(37:19):
these DNA match Got it? Got it? Take a listen
to our France a KDVR team Morrissey says his team
discovered a close match on Phillips and passed the information
along to investigators. They then have to obtain a DNA
sample from the individual. Officials say Phillips was still living
in the area, so investigators tailed him for weeks until
(37:41):
they got a chance to collect his DNA after. Morrissey
says they saw him stop at a fast food joint.
He carried the trash from that food into a post
office and he came out without it, and they rushed
right in and got it out of the garbage and
they were able to at his saliva off of some
(38:01):
of the trash that he deposited. Phillips is being held
in a Park County jail. He's facing multiple charges, including
kidnapping and first degree murder. In Denver, Evan Kruegel got
that DNA match off items in the trash. DNA doesn't lie.
(38:22):
To Ajeanette Levy, Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, who is
this guy and where is he now? He is a
mechanic and they say he has been living in Colorado
for many, many years. So the sheriff out there said
he wasn't surprised by that fact at all. I think
(38:42):
it raises a lot of questions though, did this guy
just stop doing this? I can't imagine he just stopped.
Allie Phillips now seventy We wait as justice unfalls. Nancy
Grace Crime Story, signing off good bye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two beautiful women seemingly unrelated
and both go missing. Is it a coincidence or is
it a clue? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The first
(00:37):
thing you do in any investigation is look and determine
who is your victim. That way you may be able
to figure out who is the killer. Take a listen
to our friends at crime online dot com. By all accounts,
twenty nine year old Bobby Oberholtzon has been happily married
for four and a half years, living with her husband
(00:58):
in Alma. Jeff Oberholten runs an appliance repair business. She
is a receptionist. The day Bobby Oberholtzen goes missing, she
leaves for work around seven fifteen am. Jeff Oberholtsen tells
Unsolved Mysteries that it was a common occurrence for his
wife to hitchhike. Everybody hitshiden. You guys to know the
people in the town, and they got to know you,
(01:19):
and they'd look for you to take you over and
back if you needed to ride around. Dinnertime, Oberholtsen calls
her husband to let him know that she was out
with friends and would get a ride home, so according
to the husband, she is alive and well at dinner
time and was getting a ride home. Let's analyze what
(01:39):
we know already with me an all star panel to
try and apply logic to an illogical situation. Twenty seven
years metro major case detective, now lawyer at James at
shell Nutt at shell Nutt Law Firm dot com. Renowned
psychologists and joining us out of the Birmingham's Station. Doctor
(02:00):
Allen Blockkey, PhD. You can find him at Alan Blockkey
at att dot net. Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author
of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a
new series on the True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaison's Death
investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, genetic genealogist, founder of The gene Hunter,
(02:24):
and you can find her at the gene Hunter dot com.
Scher at la point but first to Anjanette Leavy, Emmy
nominated reporter and anchor, and you can find Anjanette on
Twitter at Anjanette five the number five, Anjanette, What do
we know about the first woman we're discussing? Twenty nine
(02:45):
year old Bobby Oberholtzer, apparently happily married. Yeah, and as
her husband said, Nancy, which is kind of shocking, But
I guess back then it's not so shocking that everybody hitchhights,
which just seems incredibly dangerous. We've heard of so many
cases over the years with women being kind of scooped
(03:06):
up and taken advantage of by predators who are picking
up hitchhikers. So obviously she's a happily married woman out
going to work and then going out with friends. Internet. Leavy,
You're absolutely correct. Everything seemingly normal and at a time
when hitchhiking was the norm. Believe it or not, I've
(03:27):
actually picked up a hitchhiker. Oh what was I thinking?
Obviously I survived this woman, Bobby Oberholzer. I'm looking right
at her. She looks like fair Fawcett with her hair
not quite as puffy, but really gorgeous. Lady with the wings,
(03:47):
working in brecon Ridge, Colorado. Hitchhiking. Mm. Interesting. So she
goes missing, but that evening, the husband says he gets
a phone call from her saying that she had been
out with her friends and she was getting a ride home.
(04:09):
M take a listen to Jackie Howard a crime online
by two Am. Bobby Oberholzen had not returned home. Jeff
finds out from her friends that she left the bar
around seven thirty. He tries to report her missing, but
it's told my police that it's too early to file
a report. The next morning, thirty miles outside of Breckinridge,
(04:30):
a farmer finds Bobby's driver's license. What does that mean? Strange?
Un James Shelnut, twenty seven years Metro major case including
swat now defense lawyer. What do you mean it's too
soon to report somebody missing? I mean, if my twins
aren't right there for pickup at three thirty, I'm calling
(04:50):
cops and they darn well but a launch an investigation prompto. Yeah,
you know, of course Stacey progressed and matured law enforcement
wise over case. But you know, normally, when an adult
goes missing, there's at least a twenty four hour window
that police away before they follow a missing person's report,
and that's probably what they're referring to here. No, adults
(05:12):
are a little bit different than kids. Sure, if a
kid is missing, you know that the status now is
that you know immediately police start a massive investigation. But
with an adult they handle it differently. Okay, So your
answer is with children they started investigation with With adults,
they don't. That really didn't answer my question. I think
(05:34):
what it goes to, frankly to doctor Alan Blockkeey clinical
psychologists joined me out of Birmingham. When a woman goes missing,
I've heard it a million times. Oh, she ran off
with a boyfriend, She's laid up in hotels somewhere, she's this,
she's that. They always seem to explain it away, and
you know what, it's very rarely explained away rationally. Why
(06:00):
is that? Well, And you're absolutely right, And what it
shows is that time is of the essence. You're going
to sit around for twenty four hours. Twenty four hours
is a very long time. Bad things happen. And then
when people go missing like that, as you said, Nancy,
it's rarely an instant explanation. So time is of the essence.
(06:22):
And that leads me, doctor Blockkey, to what we call
routine evidence. And I don't mean run of the meal evidence.
I mean evidence of routine. She had never not come
home before. That had never happened with Bobby Joe Oberholtz
her She came home every night and say hey, I'm
(06:43):
catching a rod I'm going to be home, but she
never made it. Why cops didn't pick up on the
fact of how extraordinary that was for her, how out
of the norm that was for her. I don't know.
But don't you agree, doctor Alan Block or do you
that people like animals are typically creatures have happened? Of course,
(07:08):
we do the same thing over and over. It's not
like my twins are not going to come home from school,
say where's Mommy's mommy? Mommy's not cooking dinner tonight, where's mommy?
I'm going to bed, where's mommy? No, that's not happening. Now,
you're absolutely right, and that what that calls for is
just a couple of very quick important questions to get
the total context, to lead you to some very quick conclusion.
(07:30):
To Anginette Levy, Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, Anginette, where
again did Bobby Joe Aberholtz her go missing in brecon
Ridge is south of Breckinridge, Colorado, Actually, and she had
been out with friends, as you mentioned, and that she
was going to be home trying to figure out what
happened to Bobby Joe Aberholts her Now at the same time,
(07:55):
we're juggling cases. Let's talk about a net Schnee twenty
one years old. Take a listen to Casey AUTV nine.
Lydia Esquez, a nut Snee, was twenty one years old.
She was raised in Siux City but living in Colorado
at the time. I met Annette on Morningside Avenue at
the McDonald's. Scott Smith was a nuts Schnee's high school boyfriend.
(08:19):
I was instantly drawn to her. She was a beautiful girl,
and that was loyal and just really lovable. I mean,
everybody really liked her. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace a
(08:48):
nut Schnee was twenty one years old. She was raised
in Siux City but living in Colorado at the time.
I met Annette on Morningside Avenue at the McDonald's. Scott
Smith was a nuts Shenie's high school boyfriend. I was
instantly drawn to her. She was a beautiful girl, and
that was loyal and just really lovable. I mean, everybody
(09:12):
really liked her. For those of you just joining us
to beautiful young women one one, one twenty nine who
looked very similar physically go missing coincidence or a clue.
You just heard the high school sweetheart of twenty one
year old Annette Schni described me her as lovable, loyal,
(09:36):
fun take a listen again to our friends at casey Au.
After high school, both of them left Sioux City. Smith
says he wrote Shen wanting to visit her, but he
never heard back, and that's when he began to worry.
Annet's mom called me up and she said, good, what
did you mean when you said you were worried about Annette?
And I said, well, you know, I just I hadn't
(09:57):
heard from her, and I was just a little concerned
about her. And she said, well, Annette's roommates have called
and said that she didn't show up but worked last
night and she hadn't showed up at at their house.
She was reported missing for months. So let me understand this.
Back to you and Jeanette Levy, reporter and anchor. So
(10:18):
this high school friends trying to reconnect, high school boyfriend
trying to reconnect because he had written her and never
heard back. But her mom says she didn't show up
for work or back home and then was reported missing.
And Jeanette, what do we know about where she worked,
who reported her missing? Where she was last saying what
do we know, well, we know that Annette was working
(10:40):
in Breckinridge, very similar to Bobby Joe. They were both
working in that city. So in these these happened on
these happened very close together. They both looked very similar.
They're both beautiful, young blonde women, you know. Very interesting.
I will never forget doctor Allen block Key, clinical psychologist
(11:02):
joining us. I was prosecuting what I believed to be
a serial killer and finally got him on one Jane Doe.
And because he left DNA that time and had no
idea who he was, it was not getting a match
(11:23):
in the system, and we didn't know who the victim
was by the end of the case. Okay, by the
time I took it to trial, I found a defendant
who was a sheep in Atlanta. I found his girlfriend
who had thrown him out. She looked almost identical to
(11:47):
the dead victim. And I found a previous rape agasalt
attempted murder of victim of his She looked like the
other two. So as part of my argument in closing statements,
I held up I had it drawn a creation of
(12:14):
what the dead victim looked like in life, a recry,
and I compared it to a blown up photo of
the lover who kicked him out and the other victim.
They all looked just alike. And I argued, who else
would kill her other than the man who was rejected
(12:35):
by her? And that jury did not need a shrink,
no offense to figure it out. What does that mean?
Like Ted Bundy? When you look at his victims, so
many of them are thin, frail looking, petite slight white
females with dark hair parted in the middle. They all
(12:57):
looked so alike to me. I think that's exactly the
thread that ties it together. You know, I'm thinking back,
what can I learn from Bobby Joe's case that may
help me in Annette Schneeze case. I know that night
the husband, Jeff had made dinner. He knew she was
(13:18):
coming home. He was waiting on her to eat supper.
How many times have we done that? Before? He falls asleep,
wakes up at midnight, discovered she didn't come home. He
waited still she had not returned. That's when he learned
she had left her friends. Around seven thirty pm. The
next morning, a farmer who lives thirty miles outside Breckinridge
(13:43):
finds Bobby Joe's license, Jeff and two friends go to
pick it up, and on the way, the husband Jeff,
spots something blue colored out in a snowy field. What
did he find? Take a listen to our forensic crime
online dot com. A farmer finds Bobby's driver's license. As
(14:06):
Jeff Oberholtzen and two friends go to pick it up,
he spots Bobby's blue backpack in a snow covered field.
A blood spattered glove and some bloody tissues are found
with it. What do we learn from that? To Joseph
Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jackson State University and author, we
learn that Bobby's blue backpack is in a snow covered field,
(14:29):
a blood spattered glove and bloody tissues found with it.
And what's interesting to me is that the husband finds it.
Not the police, of course, that put suspicion on the
husband right off the bat, but he had friends with him.
Tell me how snow would impact the crime scene? Well,
(14:51):
I gotta tell you, Nancy. First off, there a couple
of pieces here which snow. One of the things that
you're going to look for obviously are going to be
like if it's not, if it hasn't snowed recently. You're
going to look for things like footprints in the snow
because they have, particularly these elevations, it's going to remain intact.
(15:11):
He'll be able to appreciate those around around the area
where these items are found, so the local law enforcement
can go up there and actually do castings of these. Now,
I think that it's really interesting here. We're talking about
a profile where we have a backpack that is found
in one location and along with these tissues and these
(15:33):
other things. But what do we learn about her body? Well,
her body's fifteen miles away, Nancy. So if we're developing
a profile, we know that whoever's doing this is driving
a car. It's not like she just wandered out there
and suddenly deposit her backpack in the snow nonetheless and
(15:55):
subfreezing temperatures, and then wound up in another location because
she walked there. We know that whoever is handling this
is using some kind of conveyance and driving them around.
And again, not only do you have a scene there,
but whoever is depositing, whoever deposited her body, you've got
a scene within this car because this is literally a
(16:18):
mobile crime scene. That this individual is driving around in
You're gonna find blood there, You're gonna find hair and fiber,
You're gonna find all these other things that have left,
that have been left deposited, that are the essence of
her coming back to the initial location. Wow, And I
was thinking of simply there were no footprints in the
(16:39):
snow of her coming back. That's what I thought you
were going to say, But you said a whole lot more.
Of course, it's typical SOP standard operating procedure for the
husband to be considered the first suspect when you find
evidence that a wife has been killed. Right off the bat.
(17:01):
It was determined that the blood found on Bobby's gloves
and tissues with her backpack while it belonged, they thought
it was hers, but DNA testing later determined it came
from a nail, further indicating it could be the husband.
(17:33):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, guys, we were talking about
the disappearance of two beautiful young women. They look both
of them so similar to each other, and to get
a mental picture, they both remind me of Farra Faucet
when she was about twenty five years old. Bringing in
sheryla point to analyze blood found at the scene where
(17:54):
obviously Bobby Joe Oberholtzer was kidnapped. So what about blood
can tell you whether it's a male or a female? Yes, Nancy,
a female will have two X chromosomes and a male
will have a Y in an X. So immediately you're
going to notice that difference when you do an analysis
(18:15):
that you're dealing with a female's DNA and with a
male's DNA, and you can separate that DNA. Now with
the techniques that are available, it makes it very obvious
that you have different profiles. So sheeryl a point genetic genealogist.
(18:38):
It comes down to one chromosome and you can tell
if it's a man or a woman just like that, Yes, ma'am. Wow,
Okay when you say it sounds so simple to a
Janette Levy Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, we immediately know
that so wrong. At the beginning, when they thought this
(18:58):
was all Bobby jo Oberholtzer's blood turned out to be
a man's blood. Was it determined to be or not
to be the husband's blood? Well, it was determined not
to be the husband's blood. It was a male's blood.
But back when this happened, they didn't have that technology,
the DNA technology, so you would have been going by
(19:20):
blood type and things like that. Back and when this happened.
When you're taking a look at the scene, James Shelnutt,
you find her backpack, you find bloody tissue, One of
her gloves are bloody. I would immediately think that's where
either a kidnap or a rape occurred. I'd be curious
how she got there. But it tells me there's definitely
(19:41):
a struggle right there, or or was her backpack and
the other items just thrown there? What does the scene
tell you? This crom scene was interesting to me when
I looked at it, because it could have told you
a couple of different things. You know, my first dolt
and I looked at this case, was that it was
(20:03):
impressive to me that the original detectives and prosecutor restrained
themselves from prosecuting the husband. You're right, he would have
been the primed suspect in this. And you know, what
is pretty strong that his footprints would only foot prints there.
So that's one way that it could have been looked at.
But when you look at this, you're right there there
is a struggle that is occurrent. Wait a minute, As
(20:24):
a matter of fact, you're exactly correct, James Shelnut. Because
police considered Jeff overholts her a suspect in both cases.
They thought it was more than a coincidence, and he
had known both victims, and that he was the one
that discovered his wife's backpack to Ajeanette Levy, So the
(20:45):
husband knows both the victims. Crazy. I mean, if you
think about it, how can you He must be like
the unluckiest guy on the planet. How do you know
both your wife and then this cocktail waitress. You just
happened to know her. And he was quoted as saying
he had met her and given him his business card.
So of course the police are going to focus on him.
(21:07):
So it's just it's unbelievable. And then he does something
that you never see a target in a criminal case
to do. He takes a lie detector test. What happened,
Jeanette Levy? As far as a lie detector test goes,
he passed. Wow, he passed it. So he passes a
(21:29):
lie detector test. To you, doctor Alan Blockkey, clinical psychologist,
Joinings Side of Birmingham. You always hear about people who
quote beat a lie detector test. We were watching one
of the oceans. Oceans, you know, I guess there's eleven twelve,
thirteen dollars eight and a guy in the movie, of course,
beats a lie detector test. By every time, every time
(21:52):
he's asked a question, whether it's what's your name? Or
is your name Nancy Grace, he steps down on attack
in his shoe. So every time he answers a question,
he's in distress. So when he lies and shows distress,
it's no different than all the other times he's answered
a question. He's sweating. He's like, oh, you know, while
(22:16):
he's taking this poly But I find it really difficult,
you know, to believe it when somebody says, hey, I
beat the polly, it's hard to beat a polygraph. Doctor. Yes,
that's very rare, and I think that's more dramatics than
in reality. The fact that he passed the polygraph I
(22:36):
think is meaningful. Well, it was very They must have
thought it was meaningful too, because then you have Annette
Schnigo missing. The search is on. Take a listen to
our friends at crime online. Two hours after the backpack
is discovered, Bobby Oberholtzen's body is found fifteen miles away.
The only footprints found by police are Bobby's, and a
(22:59):
plastic cord is tied around one of her wrists. And
of course that orange sock. An orange sock? Wait? Am
I hearing that we're gonna go forward with a murder
investigation because of an orange sock? Okay? Now I know
(23:20):
that her body has been found fifteen miles away. The
only footpints found by police, they think are bobbies with
a plastic cord tied around one of her wrists. Well,
that's a DNA dream right there, to have a plastic
cord tied around the victim's wrist. When I say a
DNA dream come true, what do I mean by that?
(23:41):
Joseph Scott Morgan, You've got a plastic chord wrapped around
the victim's wrist. Yeah, in today's context, that's going to
leave you have the opportunity to pick up what's refer
too as touch DNA. And remember, if you're talking about
a plastic chord, this is a surface which you could
deposit dead skin cells. One. And what's really interesting is
(24:05):
in order to get that chord around her, it has
to be tied, doesn't it, Nancy, So it would have
to be logic. Would did take that it was being
tied by the perpetrator, who who left this woman in
this condition, So we believe that his DNA would be deposited.
They are also in addition to that, any other points
(24:25):
of contact on the body where he would have picked
her up, carried her, deposited her, I hate to say,
but had done things with the body post mortem or
maybe anti mortem. All of these things are going to
come into play. Are you talking about, among other things,
wire Man always so worried about the rape as opposed
to the murder. You know, I need a shrink for that,
(24:48):
But go ahead, well, you know, we begin to think
about all of these opportunities to harvest the DNA that's
going to come off of her body. And keep in mind,
as Anjeanette had said earlier, the reality is is that
during this time period, the only thing we had to
go on was ABO blood grouping. That's how we identified
(25:12):
people back then, and right now today we've come light
years ahead of that. We've advanced beyond that in order
to get people identified. But back then all they had
was ABO blood groupings. That's why This case is such
a testament to the investigators in the past because Nancy,
(25:32):
this evidence has been preserved for years and years and
years and years time stories with Nancy Grace. Two beautiful
(25:53):
young women go missing. Is it a coincidence or a clue?
We know what happened with Bobby Joe Oberholtz her, but
what about Annette Schnie. Take a listen to our friend
Leddy of esquiz Casey AUTV. We had to wait six
(26:16):
months until we got news that annex body had been found.
She'd been found lying face down on the on the
edge of a creek. She died from a single gunshot wound.
She is somebody I always looked up to. She would
do my hair, and she'd do my makeup and paint
my fingernails. And she acted more like the caregiver. She
(26:39):
was with me a lot of babysitting me. Cindy French
describes her sister as outgoing and goofy. It's almost obscured
sometimes when we're searching for forensic clues and trying to
make sense of a scene, to think about the person. Funny, beautiful, caregiver, outgoing, goofy.
Even Cindy is describing her sister Annette Schnee Ajeanette Levy.
(27:07):
Did I hear this correctly? An orange sock is found
near the body Bobby Joe Oberholtzer. Yeah, that's right. And
the orange sock Nancy did not belong to Bobby Joe.
So it was something that was kind of puzzling to
investigators where this orange sock just would have come from.
Two murders. You know, I don't believe in coincidence when
(27:27):
it comes to criminal law. Take a listen to our
friend at crime online. Two murders seemingly unrelated. The body
of twenty nine year old Bobby Oberholtzen is found near
a scenic overlook five miles south of Breckenridge, Colorado. She
had been shot twice. There's very little evidence at the scene. Nearby,
(27:49):
along with her house keys, police find an orange sock.
Six months later, the body of twenty one year old
Annette Schnee is discovered near a creek thirteen miles away.
She also has been shot. Imagine the officer's surprised when
they find Schnei is wearing the mate to the orange sock.
So an orange sock found near the first body. The
(28:10):
second body found months later wearing the mate to the
orange sock. James Shell at twenty seven years in law enforcement,
now defense lawyer, did you hear that? Yeah, that's pretty strong.
You know in a case where you know, if you
rule the husband out, you know, you think, okay, we've
(28:32):
not identified a suspect. We've got two different bodies that
are out there are two different murders. Are they connected?
And you know, in this particular case where you can't
find a connection of a human being between the two,
this sock is significant. It is significant because it almost
(28:54):
with certainty links these two murders. So if you find
the guy who did the first murder, he also got
the guy who did the second, and the owner of
the sock, I'm not sure. Take a listen to this.
So what is the significance of the orange sock? Both
Bobby Oberholtzen and Anete Schnee were last seen hitchhiking. Police
believed that the killer picked up Schnee around five pm,
(29:16):
drove her twenty miles south of Breckenridge, and sexually assaulted
her in his vehicle. In a hurry to put her
clothes back on, Shnee put on one long sock of
her own and an orange footy and tried to escape.
She was shot in the back and left in the snow.
Police say the killer apparently returned to Breckenridge, where he
picked up Bobby and also tried to rape her. Oberholtzen
(29:36):
apparently fought back and tried to escape, knocking the match
to the orange footy out of the vehicle. She was
shot twice as she escaped and bled to death in
the deep snow, thus explaining why there's only one set
of prince out in that snow and they belonged to
the victims. She was shot at a range where the
(29:58):
perp didn't have to get into the snow. Explain the
significance of that, just Scott Morgan, and the significance both
victims shot dead, and what we can learn from ballistics,
Oh well, ballistic matching I think is key here. They're
looking at what's referred to as a thirty eight caliber
or three fifty seven magnum caliber round. They did not
(30:23):
recover the firearm itself, but they did recover projectiles which
can be matched. And of course we know about ballistic
fingerprinting with the lands and grooves that are left behind,
the striations that are left behind on the bullet, and
so it is like a fingerprint. If you recover one
from one body, another from another body, and they are
(30:43):
very similar within you know, ninety percentile, you're going to
have effectively what can be scientifically provable in court. That's significant.
And also there's nothing essentially left behind with this weapon.
You don't have expended cartridges and this sort of thing,
because this is a revolver that's being used in a
(31:06):
case like this. One more point, Nancy, that I think
is it's critical here. One of the reports talks about
how Machinee's body, her clothing was actually in disarray. I
heard one reporter say that she quickly dressed. There's also
another possibility with serialized killings, and I've seen this with
(31:28):
my own eyes with several series I've worked over the
course of my career. Serial killers will literally treat dead
bodies like dolls. They'll undress them and then redress them
and this sort of thing, and sometimes it's left as
a marker for this behavior that they've been engaged in.
And this is what's really ominous. It really gives me
(31:50):
a thought, are these the only two victims that might
be out there? You know? Who did that? Is Ted
Bundy who would apply to bathe the dead bodies, redo
their hair and makeup and readdress them. Doctor Alan Blocke,
I really need to shrink right now. Why would you
kill a woman then bathe her, redo her hair and
(32:13):
makeup and redress her. I think it's a psychopath with
clear sexual deviations and perversions. And this is a very
disturbed person who did this and did it more than once.
And so this is not just anybody. This is not
(32:36):
somebody fashion. This is a psychopath. And we see the
threads that tie together. Does share La Point and a
genealogist founder of the gene Hunter not blue Jeans, g
e The gene Hunter Twitter at La Point, Shara, Shara,
(32:57):
what do you need to crack this case? See with
the advancement in DNA technology these days, we need a
profile that can be uploaded to genealogy site that can
find matches and shared ancestor. Take a listen, Cheryl a Point,
(33:19):
you're on point, pardon the pun. Take a listen to
Kerin Lee. At case n C TV four, Tory Mason
has learned it was DNA blood on a glove inside
one of the victim's backpacks that, along with advances in
technology that helped crack this case. Barbara Oberholtzer and a
Nat Schnee, we're seen hitchhiking near Breckinridge in January of
(33:40):
nineteen eighty two. Oberholtzer's body was found on Who's Your Past.
The next day, Schnee's body discovered in Park County. Six
months later. Back to you, Chryla point, you said, we
need genetic genealogy, we need a family tree. What is
jed match? How is that use? Sherff. Jedmatch is the
(34:02):
site that enthusiastic genealogists use because we always want to
find more cousins and DNA matches and put the puzzins together.
So jed match was invented by two men who were
an amateur genealogist. And if you test at one DNA
(34:23):
company and I test out another, instead of having to
test at all these different companies, we can upload our
results to jedmatch and compare the results. Take a listen
to Evan Krugel KdV RTV Fox thirty one. It's been
nearly four decades since Bobby, Joe Oberholtzer and Janet Schni
disappeared while hitchhiking separately outside of Brack and Rinch. I
(34:44):
cannot begin to understand the pain and sufferings their families
have had the face for nearly four decades. Today, Park
County officials announcing unarrest in the case thanks to DNA
founded one of the original crime scenes. In this case,
it was on a glove, it was blood. Mitch Morrissey
and United Data connect says that DNA did not match
any records in the state's database, so they had to
(35:06):
take it a step further. Searching for similar DNA through
an online ancestry website, you start to get people that
are potential relatives and what you're looking for is the
most common recent ancestor. So do you share a point.
How far back do you have to go? It's not
(35:27):
like this purps DNA just pops up on the registry.
You have to go way way back to like the
eighteen hundreds. Sometimes, yes, Nancy, And you know, these cases
are solved depending on the closest cousin that is found. Usually,
and in this case it was a third cousin, which
(35:47):
means you had to go all the way back to
second grade grandparents. We have sixteen second grade grandparents, eight couples,
and you have to be able to compare all these
DNA matches that you have access to to find which
of those couples this perpetrator descends from. Surel a point
You're going death. Come forearm in here. I'm just a
(36:12):
trial lawyer. Could you break it down a tiny bit more? Okay, Nancy,
When you build a family tree and you get to
your grade, your second grade grandparents, anyone who shared that
set of grandparents with you would be your third cousin.
(36:33):
Once that was found, they had to compare that cousin
to other matches that were on the site. Build out
family trees and find the connection. Who is the couple
that connects these DNA matches on you? Oh wait, wait,
you're saying that from the great grandparents. Yeah. I think
(36:58):
you're saying you get half of the DNA, but you
got to figure out the couple that gives that precise
full DNA because a bunch of third cousins have similar
DNAs but not exactly the right DNA. That's correct. You
need to find exactly which of the couples is connecting
(37:19):
these DNA match Got it? Got it? Take a listen
to our France a KDVR team Morrissey says his team
discovered a close match on Phillips and passed the information
along to investigators. They then have to obtain a DNA
sample from the individual. Officials say Phillips was still living
in the area, so investigators tailed him for weeks until
(37:41):
they got a chance to collect his DNA after. Morrissey
says they saw him stop at a fast food joint.
He carried the trash from that food into a post
office and he came out without it, and they rushed
right in and got it out of the garbage and
they were able to at his saliva off of some
(38:01):
of the trash that he deposited. Phillips is being held
in a Park County jail. He's facing multiple charges, including
kidnapping and first degree murder. In Denver, Evan Kruegel got
that DNA match off items in the trash. DNA doesn't lie.
(38:22):
To Ajeanette Levy, Emmy nominated reporter and anchor, who is
this guy and where is he now? He is a
mechanic and they say he has been living in Colorado
for many, many years. So the sheriff out there said
he wasn't surprised by that fact at all. I think
(38:42):
it raises a lot of questions though, did this guy
just stop doing this? I can't imagine he just stopped.
Allie Phillips now seventy We wait as justice unfalls. Nancy
Grace Crime Story, signing off good bye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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