December 1, 2025 • 40 mins
Anna Kepner’s death on board a Carnival cruise ship is now ruled a homicide, according to her autopsy report, stating she was “mechanically asphyxiated by another person or persons.”
The medical examiner also finds two bruises on the side of Anna’s neck, writing she may have been held in a ‘bar hold,’ meaning her attacker held an arm across her neck. Anna’s stepbrother may be a suspect in the teen’s murder; the FBI remains silent.
Anna Kepner’s cruise to the Caribbean is a family trip. She’s joined by her grandparents, who took her on her first cruise; her father, Chris Kepner; her stepmother, Shauntel Hudson; and her two siblings and two step-siblings.
Anna’s parents share a room with the two youngest girls, and by their own decision, Anna, her brother, 14, and stepbrother, 16, split a second room. Grandparents Barbara and Jeffrey Kepner remind the teens they have a spare bed in their room if anyone decides they need more space.
During dinner, Anna excuses herself early; sources allege her braces hurt. Surveillance footage shows Anna walking back to and entering the room she shares with her brothers.
After eating, the teen boys come to the room before the youngest sibling ventures out again to explore, leaving Anna and their stepbrother alone.
When he returns, he notes Anna isn’t in bed but assumes she got a second wind and is spending more time with the adults. He goes to sleep with no idea his sister’s body is shoved under the bed just a few feet away.
Though family members released the details of Anna’s autopsy, and court records from stepmom Shauntel Hudson’s divorce proceedings indicate her 16-year-old son, Anna’s stepbrother, may be a suspect in the teen’s murder, the FBI has remained silent on the progress of their investigation.
No charges have been filed.
Anna’s stepmom, Shauntel Hudson, files a motion for a gag order in her divorce proceedings, claiming the public exposure and reporting on the case and subsequent filings could lead to "possible irreversible harm" to the children and family or could jeopardize the investigation and her son’s presumed defense.
The documents request future hearings be closed to the public in the event the 16-year-old is charged in Anna’s death.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Spencer Aronfeld - Trial Lawyer and Founder of Aronfeld Trial Lawyers, Author of illustrated children's book "Sara Rose, Kid Lawyer;" Facebook: Aronfeld Law, Instagram: Aronfeld_Trial_Lawyers
- Dr. Janie Lacy - Licensed Psychotherapist and CEO of Life Counseling Solutions, Author of "How To Heal From A Toxic Relationship: A Guide To Reclaiming Your Mental Health and Happiness," Host of “The Resilient Professional” Podcast on YouTube; Instagram & Facebook: @JanieLacy
- Robert Crispin - Private Investigator “Crispin Special Investigations," Former Federal Task Force Officer for the United States Department of Justice, DEA and Miami Field Division, and Former Homicide and Crimes Against Children Investigator; Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations Inc.
- Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast, "Mayhem in the Morgue," and Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
- Shannon Butler (FL) Investigative Reporter at WFTV Channel 9 in Florida,
- Sydney Sumner - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
The carnival cruise teen girl, the little cheerleader, we now
learn thought for her life, strangled dead a mechanical strangulation.
What is that and why no charges? I'm Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us. Teen girl Anna dead on a carnival cruise.
(00:31):
Her body is found stuffed under a cabin bed, life
vests stuffed on top of her to hide her dead body.
In the last hours, Anna Kettner, the teen girl cheerleader
going to that Titus Little Christian school, already had her
(00:52):
future mapped out, very organized, planning to join the military
and ultimately be a police officer in the K nine unit.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
That little girl, the one scrubbed in sunshine.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Let's see a picture of Anna, please, there you go.
That's Santa Keptner. She's dead. Yes, the first photo was
her experimenting with blonde hair. She's dead, stuffed under a
cruise ship bed, wrapped in a blanket mummy style we've
(01:27):
been told, and then with life jackets crammed on top
of her to hide her body.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Listen, Anna Kaepner's death on board a carnival cruise ship
now ruled a homicide, her autopsy stating she was mechanically
asphyxiated by another person or person's The medical examiner finds
two bruises on the side of Anna's neck. She may
have been held in a bar hold, meaning her attacker
held an arm across her neck.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
See her in her little dive shirt. She loved to scuba,
she loved to snorkel, she loved to fish, loved being
out on the water. Joining me at the scene. Private
investigator Robert Crispin with Cristmins Special Investigations, former Federal Task
Force for the Department of Justice. This is the US government.
(02:18):
He has worked his entire life in this jurisdiction. It
is a floating crime scene. And now, Robert Crispin that
we learn it was a mechanical strangulation. I'm going to
go to doctor Kimmel Crowns in just one moment, the
crime scene, the crime scene when you were living in
(02:38):
close quarters with someone sharing a small cramp space, the
DNA processing of that scene becomes even more vital. I mean,
it's like a peachry dish of DNA and now it's
all gone. Can you refresh everyone's recollection about the cruise
(02:58):
ship investigators that first process that scene.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Well, scary enough.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
Those guys aren't crime scene tech guys, and they're not
former law enforcement guys. These are guys who took a
test on the internet, got their license, and all of
a sudden, they're protecting, you know, four thousand.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
People on a cruise ship.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
But what's critical about this homicide is going to come
down to DNA.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
It's going to come down to DNA.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
And what the medical examiner says in the autopsy, the
cause of death, et cetera, et cetera. More importantly, did
the victim fight DNA under her nails?
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Did she scratch the suspect?
Speaker 5 (03:36):
In all of these cases, Nancy, these victims fight for
their life.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
They're clawing DNA is under their.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
Nails of the suspect who's trying to kill them. This
is going to be very very very important, critical evidence
to go towards and arrest, an indictment or something to
get this guy or rested.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
And put in jail.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
It's going to take a little bit of time now
because obviously we don't have a confession, because if we
had a confession, he'd already be in jail.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
So the FBI.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Right there, Robert Crispin. I heard you referring to cause
of death and mod man of death as et cetera,
et cetera. Okay. I remember reading one of my own
transcripts of a trial. I tried a felony and I
was writing the appeal to hold the conviction on appeal.
(04:34):
And I must have been very, very tired by the
end of that trial because I was arguing to the
judge and I was making my legal argument and said
and judge blah blah, Okay, like you're etcetera, etcetera. I
know one person, aside from myself that will take issue
with the cause of death and manner of death being
called et cetera, et cetera. Doctor Kendall Crown's joining US
(04:55):
Chief Medical Examiner Terran County, host of Hitney podcast Mayhem
in the Morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the
Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Kendel Crowns, thank
you for being with us. Got a lot of questions
for you about mechanical strangulation. What is it.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
So?
Speaker 7 (05:17):
Mechanical asphyxia is basically some sort of compression on the
chest or neck that makes it impossible for you to breathe. Specifically,
mechanical strangulation, what they're referring to as a bar hold
or chokehold, is where the arm is placed across the
front of the neck and then drawn back with the
other arm, impressing your trachea and making it impossible for
(05:41):
you to breathe. The other situation is the crotted sleeperhold,
where they put your neck in the cruck of the
arm and then compress both sides of your crodit causing
the blood not to flow to your brain and you
pass out. So either one of those scenarios could be
what they're defining as mechanical asphyxia or mechanical strangul.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Okay, let me understand something. You put your arm across
your neck to demonstrate mechanical strangulation. But we have learned
tonight that Anna had two bruises on the side off
her neck, not the track, not the front, the side
off her neck. What does that mean?
Speaker 7 (06:23):
So it could mean when they're compressing the neck with
the arm, that they're placing pressure with the other arm
along the side of the neck and the arm is
kind of to the side causing the bruising. It could
also mean that he placed her in a crotted sleeperhold
and using the cruck of his arm, both sides of
his arm compress on either sides of her neck, compressing
(06:43):
her karated and karatids, and caused her to pass out
and die from lack of blood to her brain.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
You know another thing. Let me check with Shannon Butler
on this investigative reporter WFTV Channel nine in Florida, who's
been on Anna's case from the beginning. Shannon, we are
being told that while the entire autopsy is not complete,
specifically toxicology and other lab work, that there was no
(07:14):
sign of sex attack. Have you learned that as well?
Speaker 8 (07:18):
Yeah, that's what we understand. I mean, remember, most of
the information that we had been getting came mostly from
family members, but that death certificate, at least preliminary information,
does suggest that that's the case.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Dancing, Okay, I'm looking at the death certificate. What part
of the death certificate tells you there was no sex attack.
Speaker 8 (07:38):
Well, the death certificate does not, but information that we've
received from sources from the family members have indicated that
that is not a place.
Speaker 9 (07:48):
In this situation.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Really really okay, because you refer to the death certificate
as proving there was no sex attack. And there's not
one word on this death certificate according that says anything
about lack of sex attack or sex attack, so it's
not on the death certificate. So we're getting the no
sex attack knowledge from the family.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Is that correct?
Speaker 8 (08:11):
The family and from other sources that are close to
this investigation. But that doesn't mean Okay, we're still a
long way from having all of the answers that we
need in this case. And I don't know that anybody
is satisfied with the information that's been released so far.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
You know, doctor Kendle Crowns, I want to follow up
on what Shannon Butler just told us from WFTV, Doctor
Kendall Crowns. If we don't have the toxicology report, yeah,
then how am I to believe that we have a
DNA result from a rape kit?
Speaker 7 (08:49):
Well, toxicology reports can take up to six to eight weeks,
so you potentially don't have the DNA report back from
a sexual assault kit or a rape kit because there
hasn't been enough time pass. So again, there'd have to
be a little more testing done, a little more stuff
done by the crime labs before it's all back. My
(09:10):
answer to that is maybe there is still DNA out
there waiting to get done and we just don't know
about it yet.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Dodger Kentle Crowns, how long did you say would type
for a talks you for?
Speaker 5 (09:19):
It?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Can't there be a rush on it.
Speaker 7 (09:22):
There can be a rush on it, but typically it
can take six to eight weeks depending on what drugs
are on board. Especially if there's some sort of synthetic
or designer drug being looked for, it can take up
to two months.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
What do you mean by synthetic or designer Please.
Speaker 7 (09:35):
Like synthetic marijuana, bath salts, those kind of designer drugs
that every so often show up that we don't have
a lot of specific testing for. Some more has to
be done every day that the drug chemists are making
new variations on drugs that the toxicology labs are constantly
having to test for to try and keep ahead.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Of Now another issue straight up to Sydney Suner joining
US Crime Stories investigative reporter Sidney, the word is getting
put out that there was no sex attack and that
drugs or alcohol did not play a contributing factor in
her death. We don't even have the talks report. We
don't have a DNA report, so where is this coming from.
It's premature.
Speaker 10 (10:19):
I agree it's premature. It's coming from family members who
have seen a more detailed death certificate than has been
released to the public.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
But how do we know.
Speaker 10 (10:31):
How do they know this information if those reports have
not been made official. There are so many confusing details
about this case.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Nancy, Yeah, Sidney, I think that people very often they
project what they want to be true. There was a
lot made at the get go, and this is on
a court video. We have it on video where a
civil attorney stated that the teens had been drinking. Now
Carnival Cruz says, oh no, they were absolutely not drinking.
(11:02):
But again, Robert Crispin, the proof will be in the pudding.
Everybody can say whatever they want to say right now.
No sex attack, sex attack, no drugs or alcohol.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Drugs are alcohol in the system.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
We don't have any of those results. And again, remember
the bands that everybody wears on cruise ships. They will
tell it sure whether you I said earlier, had a
bag of chips, much less much less a drink.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Now, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
That Carnival Cruise will give a miner a drink, so
it may very well not show up on a risk band. Again,
they're denying any alcohol was served to a miner, but
could the miner get the alcohol in another way? Haven't
you ever driven up to a seven to eleven and
you see a bunch of teens out there and they're
paying people or asking people to bring them out beer.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Absolutely, I've seen it. As a matter of fact.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
Carnival's blanket statement has to be that Nancy. They can't
come out to the public and say that they serve
miners at sea.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
They can't do that.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
And any of this information that's coming out is being
released from the family.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
And don't forget Nancy.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
They had at least twenty four hours before that ship
got back to the port of Miami that that family
was able to get together, concoct their story and see
or decide what they're going to release. They had a
lot of time for family, protect family. And that's why
(12:23):
this family may not want to release that she was
sexually assaulted.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
If she was, they didn't want that out there.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Hey, Crispin, Yeah, I learned that Anna was feeling badly.
She's felt poorly. It was because of her braces were
hurting her, and she asked to go back. She asked
to go back to the room early during dinner. She
went back, but then she got dressed up and re emerged.
(12:49):
And what we're learning is she had on this cute
little outfit. But in one report, Crispin, just one, it
said Anne was wrapped only in a blanket with life
Best stuffed over her only only in a blanket, which
led me to believe that she was naked under the blanket.
(13:15):
That's yet to be born out. But if that is true,
or if she was partially clothed, why else would she
have been partially clothed, stuffed under a twin bed, or
naked wrapped in a blanket unless there had been a
sex attack. What I'm saying is just because there's not DNA,
(13:37):
just because there's not sperm on or in her body,
does not mean there was not a sex attack.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
And if you go back and you listen to one
of the statements that was made from Anna's ex boyfriend's
father that the step son had climbed on top of
her one night when she was in bed.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
You know, I know that Project Innocence and the Poverty
Law Institute and all the defense bars You're gonna get
mad when I say this, but they could just chew
on this. When you don't know a horse, look at
his track record. Listen.
Speaker 11 (14:16):
She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to
tell anybody because she was scared that he would do
something to her.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Joshua too, says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was
one sided. The sixteen year old is obsessed with Anna
and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even
caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the
two were on FaceTime, Anna already asleep.
Speaker 12 (14:40):
He said that I tried to tell the parents that
this was happening, and they didn't want to believe me.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
He's like infatuated, attracted her like crazy.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
He's always wanted the dator.
Speaker 12 (14:50):
Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is
his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that
Anna's ex boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here.
So keep that in mind, Christopher, I blame you.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
That from Inside Edition and at Just Mom nineteen eighty
four on TikTok, that's Anna's bio. Mom, So explain to
me Shannon Butler, investigative reporter WFTV. According to what we're
learning from her ex boyfriend Joshua Too, it's not just
what she said happened. He was on FaceTime with her.
(15:35):
They were facetiming late at night. Anna fell asleep, but
the FaceTime was still going and he, according to reports,
saw the sixteen year old stepbrother crawl on top of her.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
He saw it.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
It's not just her saying that happened to her, and
then he goes on to state she did not feel
safe around him. She was scared to tell anybody because
she thought he would quote do something to her.
Speaker 9 (16:03):
That is what he said to reporters here.
Speaker 8 (16:06):
He also told his dad that, and his dad told
reporters that there was always this fear Anna had of
her stepbrother, but it wasn't just something that she talked about.
The boyfriend said he knew about it and then he
saw that when it happened on FaceTime and even said
like get off of her.
Speaker 9 (16:23):
So there are a lot of questions about.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
Exactly what Anna told him and if that really happened,
but that was his statement to reporters just after she
was found dead on that Christian.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Two doctor Janey Lacy license p likecho therapist, CEO of
Life Counseling Solutions. She's an author, she's a star of
her own podcast on YouTube, Doctor Janey Lacey, thank you
for being with us. Why wouldn't she tell her parents?
Why did everybody else to know she was afraid of
the teens step brother?
Speaker 13 (16:52):
Well, Nancy, I think this speaks to a larger issue
that I see in blended families, especially sometimes adult minimize
concerning behaviors because acknowledging them, Nancy would mean they have to.
Speaker 14 (17:06):
Confront deeper problems in the family structure.
Speaker 13 (17:09):
And there's often like this pressure to present this unified,
happy family image. But when children don't feel safe and
their safety doesn't come first, especially when a young woman
says she's uncomfortable when a boyfriend reportedly witnessing an appropriate behavior,
I mean, those things can't be dismissed.
Speaker 14 (17:25):
So I would suggest that she probably didn't tell her
parents because of whatever the family dynamics, probably could have
been minimalization, dismissing, or there was no safety there, so
she confided in her boyfriend at the time, and perhaps
of friends. But we see this very common and blended
families when the picture of the happy family comes before
the safety and the feelings of the children.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Nancy to Spencer Erinfeld, known as the Cruz Lawyer, that's
one of his specialties. He's the founder of Aaronfeld Trial Lawyers.
He's also an author. Spencer's thank you for being with us.
Before I take you down the garden path of cruise
ship law. You had to confront this at some point
(18:09):
in court. One in four women look around you. One
in four women and or girls have been sex assaulted
in some way.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Bam.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yet we know it's not reported. We know that the
statistics do not bear out that it is reported. There
is shame attached to it. The girl woman thinks it's
her fault. Wow, did I leave him?
Speaker 15 (18:35):
On?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Was that my fault? Society enforces it? Why she out
with a short skirt?
Speaker 5 (18:40):
On?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Why she out at a bar by herself? Ad nauseum?
The victim is always blamed. And I wonder in this
case if this little girl, it goes to this title
Field Christian School, wants to be a K nine handler.
That's her aspiration. Was afraid no one would believe her
or even blame her.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
What about it?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Aaron Feld?
Speaker 9 (19:04):
Yeah, Unfortunately, it's very true, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (19:06):
Both men and women or the victims of sexual assault
are very reluctant to come forward for all the reasons
you just spoke of, the guilt, the shame, the stigma,
and all my years.
Speaker 9 (19:22):
Of repenting victims of sexual assault on cruise lines, both.
Speaker 6 (19:25):
Men and women, that many of them have been victimized before.
This is not the first time they have been the
victim of sexual abuse, so they have this compounded emotional
paralysis that stops them from reporting it. And Nancy, if
they do, the cruise lines, in my experience, are the
(19:47):
least hopeful to them in getting them the cure they
need and preserving the evidence of these types of assaults,
and the cruise lines are guilty of not reporting them
because those reports have to be on the Department of
Transportation website that will list the number of sexual assaults.
Speaker 9 (20:06):
That happened per cruise line per quarter. And if they're
not reported, the cruise lines don't have to report it.
And if they're not report.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Enough, my stars, that's an incredible fact.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Now. Earlier, doctor Jenny Lacey was describing how some girls
may not come forward and tell their own family about
a family member or relative that is assaulting them. She
brought up that this was a blended family. Well, it's
very blended. Listen.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
By the time Anna is five, Christopher Kaepner is having
an affair with a teenage babysitter. When Tabitha Donna Hugh
turns eighteen, Chris marries her and they have two children together.
Heather has a hard time maintaining a relationship with Anna
due to the bitter divorce with Chris.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
We have reached out to Anna's family, we have not
heard back, and I want to remind everyone that nobody
has been charged tonight. And I'm wondering why we are
told doctor Kendall Crowns that she quote fought for her life.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
How do we know that?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
How could we possibly know that? Tell me Anna Nutshell,
how would we know she quote fought for her life?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
There's evidence.
Speaker 7 (21:34):
Often with strangulations, the evidence is trying to get the
UH objects off your neck, so you'll see scratch marks
on the neck from the individual's fingernails themselves. You can
also see injuries on the person who is the suspect
suspect in the case as well, scratches on their face,
scratches on their arms. If you see intense particular hemorrhages
(21:57):
or small pinpoint hemorrhages on the face, you know that
the compression may have been released and then brought back,
and it could be that sign of a struggle as
well as well as the bruising on her neck could
be from her thrashing about trying to get the restraint
off her neck. So there's a number of signs that
could show that she fought back to try and get
out of the hold.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
A doctor, Kendlegrounds, You're amazing. You just told me two
things I hadn't already thought of. You mentioned that if
the stranglehold him to put on her and then released
and she still kept fighting and it was put back,
(22:40):
you're saying that that would result in additional particular hemorrhage,
which is all the stress. You know, when you're wearing,
you're getting your blood pressure right, and it feels like
part of your arm is going to blow up because
of the pressure. It gets so tight, right, That's what
happens to your eyes. The pressure is so tight that
(23:02):
the tiny blood vessels in your eyes hemorrhage, they burst,
and you see that in asphyxiation strangulation be manual or
ligature or mechanical. So explain to me what you were saying.
If the pressure had been put on your neck, released
and put back, what would you see as evidence of struggle?
Speaker 7 (23:24):
So again, that would be the particular hemorrhages that you're
talking about, the little pinpoint hemorrhages you see in the eye,
but you also see them in the periocular region or
around the eyes as well, can be throughout the face,
the gums. And what happens is it only takes a
little bit of pressure to compress your jugular which is
four point four pounds, and you're crotted, which is eleven
pounds of pressure. And once those are compressed, you do
(23:47):
still have a little bit of vertebral artery circulation coming in.
But what happens when those are released all of a sudden,
that blood comes rushing back into your head. And then
if the compression comes back again, that blood is trapped
second time, and then that can cause the particular hemorrhages
to become more expressed or more pronounced, because you keep
(24:07):
getting that blood flow restored and then compressed, and then
restored and then eventually completely choked off or constricted. And
that's why you'll see more and more bursting of the
hemorrhages because of the blood keeps coming back in and
then getting stopped.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
That helped me a lot, But I still have one
question regarding what does it prove? Is it primitive? Would
the original particular images look different than the second round
of particular hemorhages? I mean, can I look at her
particular images and determine that the pressure had been applied, released,
(24:42):
applied again? Could I tell that strictly from the particular
hemorrhage alone?
Speaker 7 (24:51):
No, No, there would be no way. It's just if
they're really pronounced. Well, I'm telling you the science. But
if it's really pronounced, you can get an idea that
there's been more blood flow restored. But if there's just
minimal particular hemorrhages that occurred initially, it won't be necessarily different.
It's just that the fact that there's more of them
(25:12):
means that there was more more.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
She said something about thrashing her head back and forth.
I'm trying to look for evidence proving a struggle because
we have been told, quote, she fought for her lie.
You mentioned scratches, got it agree?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
But what did you say about her.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Thrashing her head back and forth, which would indicate a struggle.
How can I tell she thrashed.
Speaker 7 (25:37):
Put the neck in a carotted sleeper hoole and she
starts pushing against the pressure on her neck that can
cause the bruising. Also internally, when the skin is dissected
up and you look at the neck muscles, you can
see stretching of stretching hemorrhages of the neck muscles from
them trying to pull out of the hold as well,
(25:57):
So you can see that internally like hemorrhages the musculture
that showed that she was violently fighting against the constrictive
process on her neck.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Anna excuses herself from dinner early, not feeling well. Surveillance
footage shows Anna walking back to and entering the room
she shares with her brothers. After eating, The teen boys
come back to the room before the youngest sibling ventures
out again to explore, leaving Anna and their stepbrother alone.
Speaker 16 (26:23):
Anna's brother heard a heated argument between them in their
cabin the night before Anna was found dead. He heard
the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning
and screams from inside the room.
Speaker 11 (26:36):
He heard him yelling at her, like in a harmful
way of like shut the hell up and stuff like that.
Like something was like banging around and stuff, and like
the chairs were getting thrown around in the room.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
From Inside Edition, there's an investigation conducted by the FBI
arising out of sudden death of eighteen year old Anna
kept her The little girl was wrapped Anne and sheets,
possibly a blanket. It was a full twenty four hours
before her body.
Speaker 17 (27:04):
Di found.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Anna Kittner, the teen cheerleader, dead on a carnival cruise ship.
The cruise ship insisting there was no alcohol serf to teens,
but in a videoed court hearing, a lawyer says they
were drinking. What is the truth? Don't know yet because
in the last hours a gag order has been placed.
(27:30):
In other words, the medical examiner can't speak. Everybody's clamped down.
Nobody can speak.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Why.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
That's very very unusual. But we're learning a lot because
of divorce proceedings. Listen.
Speaker 17 (27:48):
Court records from stepmom Sean tell Hudson's divorced indicate her
sixteen year old son and his stepbrother may be a
suspect in the teen's murder. The FBI has remained silent.
No charges have been fined.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I would have difficulty in them putting the sixteen year
old on the stand because I don't want anything done
that would incriminate the young man. So I believe what
they're saying. Shannon Butler joining US w FTV on this
case from the very beginning, joining US out of Florida.
You've got ongoing divorce custody proceedings and and those the
(28:23):
mom of the teen step brother files any emergency here
and saying I'm not answering any questions. Nobody's taking the
stand because it could hurt my son's right to a
fair trial, a fair trial on what obviously the Anna
Kepner murder.
Speaker 8 (28:40):
Yeah, that was the first we had heard about the
stepbrother being a suspect. We didn't get any of that
from investigators. But then you go into this, you know,
separate court case, and that's how that information was revealed,
and that's what kind of started everybody now asking these questions.
And if you, you know, listen to the family members
about that brother. They talk about how he was very
(29:03):
very distraught over this, how they had to he had
to be hospitalized, the behavior.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, the teen
step brother was distraught, distraught, correct, that's what they say. Okay.
Was he distraught about Anna being dead or about him
being a suspect.
Speaker 9 (29:27):
That's still the question.
Speaker 8 (29:29):
The family was very very clear that he was very
very upset after this happened and had to be Hospitalizing.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Spencer Aaronfeld joining us. The cruise lawyer, he's handled so
many cruise ship cases, typically for the complainant, the alleged victim,
not the cruise line.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
He's got to say many.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I tried to count them, couldn't count them. Spencer. We
were told that the team brother was so distraught that
he had to go in the hospital. Then he was
miraculously released from the hospital. He wasn't wearing a band aid,
he wasn't on crutches. Why was he in the hospital?
(30:22):
Was that a delay tactic? Then we were told he
was quote so upset he quote couldn't talk to FBI investigators.
Sounds a lot to me like invoking your right to
remain silent.
Speaker 9 (30:37):
One hundred percent, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (30:39):
And it also destruction of evidence because when he went
to the hospital, I'm sure that he changed his clothes.
Speaker 9 (30:45):
What happened to his clothes.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
I'm sure he was cleaned, and his fingers and what's
under his nails, and all sorts of things that would
have been invaluable evidence to the investigators and prosecutors.
Speaker 9 (30:57):
In this case were probably lost by that. To the hospital.
It really interrupted the chain of custody.
Speaker 15 (31:04):
Of a lot of evidence that would have been left
on him, including potentially bodily fluids and things that may
have been on his hands, on his clothes.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
You know, Spencer Ernfield, you are my own personal chamber
of hers. I hadn't even thought of that yet. The
fact that he goes straight into a hospital setting and
his clothes could be god knows where, Robert Crispin, that's important.
I want to see his clothes. I want to look
(31:35):
for microscopic evidence. I'm wanna look for blood. I'm wanna
look for sperm, I wanna look for her blood. And yes,
I want to see his underwear for obvious reasons. It's
probably all gone, Robert.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
It probably is Nancy.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Hence the long delay before the ship got back to
locking down the crime scene, locking down the people their clothing,
not letting anyone and go anywhere. Intermingle talk to people,
separating everybody.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
It's just it's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
Those clothes tell investigators and prosecutors and judges and juries
so much information. It's insane, the information that comes out
of just your clothes, or what comes from underneath your fingernail,
or what comes from actually on your body.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Nancy, come on, how many times have.
Speaker 5 (32:29):
You known or heard where a fingerprint is actually pulled
from a body somebody else's fingerprint.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Also, because of this court hearing, we hear allegations that
the teams have been drinking. Is that true? We don't
know yet.
Speaker 9 (32:44):
Listen, we feel there.
Speaker 18 (32:45):
Are some circumstances regarding that the sixteen year old and
the mother's judgment regarding that cruise that would affect you know,
obviously that her ability to care for the my child,
the nine year old. The sixteen year old was allowed
to drink, the teenagers were given their own room in
(33:09):
which to stay. Just a lot of circumstances that showed
that the mother in this case was not exercising appropriate
supervision over this child.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
And of course the cruise ship is vehemently denying that
the teens had alcohol. Of course, the family is stunned.
They've got Anna dad stuffed under a bed. They've got
the sixteen year old reportedly a target. Listen.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
He was a good student, played soccer.
Speaker 19 (33:41):
He played soccer, very quiet young man. He had demons,
I think in his past and he was trying to
deal with those.
Speaker 17 (33:49):
Barbara and Jeffrey Kepner are shocked Ganna's sixteen year old
stepbrother is being eyed as a suspect and their murder.
Describing them as two peas in a pod and very close.
She says the teen was distraught when he learned and
his body was found and couldn't speak during an initial
interview with FBI agents. Barbara says the teen claims he
can't remember what happened and was hospitalized for psychiatric observation.
(34:11):
When they arrived back in Miami.
Speaker 19 (34:13):
He was an emotional mess. He couldn't even speak. He
couldn't believe what had happened.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
That from our friends at ABC. Did you hear that
doctor Janey Lacy joining us license psychotherapist. He was an
emotional mess. He couldn't speak, he couldn't believe what happened.
He was in the room when it happened. According to
circumstantial evidence, unless we want to believe she choke, helled
(34:42):
herself and stuffed herself under the bunk tonight, no charges.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
What does that mean to you?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
An emotional mess, couldn't speak, couldn't believe what happened.
Speaker 14 (34:50):
It means a couple of things, Nancy. In that interview
her talking about his demon.
Speaker 13 (34:54):
So did the family know that he had some struggles
and they weren't adequately addressed?
Speaker 10 (35:00):
And then the.
Speaker 13 (35:00):
Critical question to me becomes, then where were the adults.
If they were, where are these demons? And if he's
emotionally distressed in these types of things, right, that can
be a shock, truly a shock, because we do have situations, Nancy,
where when people go into what we would call a
narcissistic type of rage when they get some type of
rejection or they're not getting the things that they want,
(35:23):
that in that moment, the heightenedness of their emotional regulation
goes and they can have these moments where they kind
of black out, so to speak, and then when they
come to there's a gravity of what has happened to.
Speaker 14 (35:35):
In their behaviors in the situation. So you know, it
also could be the consciousness of guilt.
Speaker 13 (35:40):
When you have the consciousness of guilt, those emotions can
come on, come on strong, So I would probably say
it's somewhere in those two realms, Nancy.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Then you have the whole other can of worms with
the bio mom. What are we hearing from her?
Speaker 4 (35:55):
A never want friend, they call me and get a
hold of me and anything.
Speaker 9 (35:58):
When he died, I.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Found out through Google, Heather says.
Speaker 17 (36:02):
On top of discovering Anna died through internet searches instead
of her father, captainer also told her she wasn't welcoming
Anna's celebration of life service. She claims Captainer threatened to
have her arrested were a disguise to her own daughter's
memorial so she could say goodbye in peace. Other is
not mentioned in Anna's obituary.
Speaker 12 (36:20):
I'm going to put a wig on and wear some
really tall shoes because I'm four foot.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Nine, was too and inside addition, and back out to
Robert Crispin and private investigator Crispin Special Investigations.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
This is his turf.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
He's joining us from Port of Miami. Did you hear
that the teen.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Step brother.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Is too distraught to speak? First goes into a psychiatric hold,
then he comes out really quickly. Guess he wasn't that ill.
Now he's too upset to talk about what happened in
the room for he and Anna were alone, and she
ends up stuffed under a twin bed, too upset to speak.
He's too upset about quote what happened. He also told
(37:03):
someone he couldn't remember what happened.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
So what is that?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
A temporary blackout?
Speaker 5 (37:10):
So that's not uncommon they don't remember things. Oh, I
feel so bad. I got to go to the hospital.
I can't I can't believe what happened. I don't remember Nancy.
Go back in the history of this kid. There's reports
out there that.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
He's had demons. I want to know what are his demons?
Speaker 5 (37:29):
I want to know did those demons come to light
in that cabin with Anna?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Why do I care about his feelings. I do not
care about his feelings. I care about her dead body, which,
by the way, she's being cremated, so I certainly hope
they got all the evidence that they needed to get
from her body. But that said, why do I have
to keep hearing about him being upset? She's dead?
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Oh That's what I'm upset about, not about his.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
I understand, but that's very, very important to a prosecutor
in law enforcement, because how many times, Nancy, have we
had a suspect who killed someone never went to church
in their life.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
They're a suspect, we can't prove it yet, and all
of a sudden, now they found God. They go to
church every single day. That's a sign.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I'm so glad you said what you just said, because
Shannon Butler, investigative reporter WFTV, you heard what Chrispin just said.
The taine has not been charged. Why has a Tanane
not been charged? That said, he's not even being held
as a suspect. He is walking free. He is quote
(38:42):
under watched, underwatched by who who's watching him?
Speaker 8 (38:47):
Well, that's the frustration from the family and frankly this
community along the coast there, that's the frustration, like when
is something going to happen, When is there going to
be in arrested, When are the answers going to come out?
So much we don't know about this case because the
FBI has not been transparent with their information their investigation,
which is not unusual for the FBI, But there's lots
(39:11):
of information that still is not out there. We can
only assume that they're building the case and that something
will happen soon, but there is no timeline for that.
We don't know how long we'll be sitting here waiting,
and this family will have to wait for some kind
of answer here.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
If you know or think you know anything about Anna's
murder mechanical strangulation, please call seven five four seven zero
three two thousand, repeat seven five four seven zero three
two thousand. It could be something that you observed. It
(39:51):
could be something your child told you that Anna said.
It could be something the teen boyd If you know
or think you know, please help with This investigation is
ongoing and tonight still no charges. We remember an American
(40:14):
hero Officer, Alec Sanders Alambra PD, California, just twenty eight
killed in the line of duty, leaving behind aggrieving fiance.
American Hero Officer Alec Sanders, Nancy Gray signing off goodbye.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
The carnival cruise teen girl, the little cheerleader, we now
learn thought for her life, strangled dead a mechanical strangulation.
What is that and why no charges? I'm Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us. Teen girl Anna dead on a carnival cruise.
(00:31):
Her body is found stuffed under a cabin bed, life
vests stuffed on top of her to hide her dead body.
In the last hours, Anna Kettner, the teen girl cheerleader
going to that Titus Little Christian school, already had her
(00:52):
future mapped out, very organized, planning to join the military
and ultimately be a police officer in the K nine unit.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
That little girl, the one scrubbed in sunshine.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Let's see a picture of Anna, please, there you go.
That's Santa Keptner. She's dead. Yes, the first photo was
her experimenting with blonde hair. She's dead, stuffed under a
cruise ship bed, wrapped in a blanket mummy style we've
(01:27):
been told, and then with life jackets crammed on top
of her to hide her body.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Listen, Anna Kaepner's death on board a carnival cruise ship
now ruled a homicide, her autopsy stating she was mechanically
asphyxiated by another person or person's The medical examiner finds
two bruises on the side of Anna's neck. She may
have been held in a bar hold, meaning her attacker
held an arm across her neck.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
See her in her little dive shirt. She loved to scuba,
she loved to snorkel, she loved to fish, loved being
out on the water. Joining me at the scene. Private
investigator Robert Crispin with Cristmins Special Investigations, former Federal Task
Force for the Department of Justice. This is the US government.
(02:18):
He has worked his entire life in this jurisdiction. It
is a floating crime scene. And now, Robert Crispin that
we learn it was a mechanical strangulation. I'm going to
go to doctor Kimmel Crowns in just one moment, the
crime scene, the crime scene when you were living in
(02:38):
close quarters with someone sharing a small cramp space, the
DNA processing of that scene becomes even more vital. I mean,
it's like a peachry dish of DNA and now it's
all gone. Can you refresh everyone's recollection about the cruise
(02:58):
ship investigators that first process that scene.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Well, scary enough.
Speaker 5 (03:04):
Those guys aren't crime scene tech guys, and they're not
former law enforcement guys. These are guys who took a
test on the internet, got their license, and all of
a sudden, they're protecting, you know, four thousand.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
People on a cruise ship.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
But what's critical about this homicide is going to come
down to DNA.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
It's going to come down to DNA.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
And what the medical examiner says in the autopsy, the
cause of death, et cetera, et cetera. More importantly, did
the victim fight DNA under her nails?
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Did she scratch the suspect?
Speaker 5 (03:36):
In all of these cases, Nancy, these victims fight for
their life.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
They're clawing DNA is under their.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
Nails of the suspect who's trying to kill them. This
is going to be very very very important, critical evidence
to go towards and arrest, an indictment or something to
get this guy or rested.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
And put in jail.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
It's going to take a little bit of time now
because obviously we don't have a confession, because if we
had a confession, he'd already be in jail.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
So the FBI.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Right there, Robert Crispin. I heard you referring to cause
of death and mod man of death as et cetera,
et cetera. Okay. I remember reading one of my own
transcripts of a trial. I tried a felony and I
was writing the appeal to hold the conviction on appeal.
(04:34):
And I must have been very, very tired by the
end of that trial because I was arguing to the
judge and I was making my legal argument and said
and judge blah blah, Okay, like you're etcetera, etcetera. I
know one person, aside from myself that will take issue
with the cause of death and manner of death being
called et cetera, et cetera. Doctor Kendall Crown's joining US
(04:55):
Chief Medical Examiner Terran County, host of Hitney podcast Mayhem
in the Morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the
Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Kendel Crowns, thank
you for being with us. Got a lot of questions
for you about mechanical strangulation. What is it.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
So?
Speaker 7 (05:17):
Mechanical asphyxia is basically some sort of compression on the
chest or neck that makes it impossible for you to breathe. Specifically,
mechanical strangulation, what they're referring to as a bar hold
or chokehold, is where the arm is placed across the
front of the neck and then drawn back with the
other arm, impressing your trachea and making it impossible for
(05:41):
you to breathe. The other situation is the crotted sleeperhold,
where they put your neck in the cruck of the
arm and then compress both sides of your crodit causing
the blood not to flow to your brain and you
pass out. So either one of those scenarios could be
what they're defining as mechanical asphyxia or mechanical strangul.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Okay, let me understand something. You put your arm across
your neck to demonstrate mechanical strangulation. But we have learned
tonight that Anna had two bruises on the side off
her neck, not the track, not the front, the side
off her neck. What does that mean?
Speaker 7 (06:23):
So it could mean when they're compressing the neck with
the arm, that they're placing pressure with the other arm
along the side of the neck and the arm is
kind of to the side causing the bruising. It could
also mean that he placed her in a crotted sleeperhold
and using the cruck of his arm, both sides of
his arm compress on either sides of her neck, compressing
(06:43):
her karated and karatids, and caused her to pass out
and die from lack of blood to her brain.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
You know another thing. Let me check with Shannon Butler
on this investigative reporter WFTV Channel nine in Florida, who's
been on Anna's case from the beginning. Shannon, we are
being told that while the entire autopsy is not complete,
specifically toxicology and other lab work, that there was no
(07:14):
sign of sex attack. Have you learned that as well?
Speaker 8 (07:18):
Yeah, that's what we understand. I mean, remember, most of
the information that we had been getting came mostly from
family members, but that death certificate, at least preliminary information,
does suggest that that's the case.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Dancing, Okay, I'm looking at the death certificate. What part
of the death certificate tells you there was no sex attack.
Speaker 8 (07:38):
Well, the death certificate does not, but information that we've
received from sources from the family members have indicated that
that is not a place.
Speaker 9 (07:48):
In this situation.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Really really okay, because you refer to the death certificate
as proving there was no sex attack. And there's not
one word on this death certificate according that says anything
about lack of sex attack or sex attack, so it's
not on the death certificate. So we're getting the no
sex attack knowledge from the family.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Is that correct?
Speaker 8 (08:11):
The family and from other sources that are close to
this investigation. But that doesn't mean Okay, we're still a
long way from having all of the answers that we
need in this case. And I don't know that anybody
is satisfied with the information that's been released so far.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
You know, doctor Kendle Crowns, I want to follow up
on what Shannon Butler just told us from WFTV, Doctor
Kendall Crowns. If we don't have the toxicology report, yeah,
then how am I to believe that we have a
DNA result from a rape kit?
Speaker 7 (08:49):
Well, toxicology reports can take up to six to eight weeks,
so you potentially don't have the DNA report back from
a sexual assault kit or a rape kit because there
hasn't been enough time pass. So again, there'd have to
be a little more testing done, a little more stuff
done by the crime labs before it's all back. My
(09:10):
answer to that is maybe there is still DNA out
there waiting to get done and we just don't know
about it yet.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Dodger Kentle Crowns, how long did you say would type
for a talks you for?
Speaker 5 (09:19):
It?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Can't there be a rush on it.
Speaker 7 (09:22):
There can be a rush on it, but typically it
can take six to eight weeks depending on what drugs
are on board. Especially if there's some sort of synthetic
or designer drug being looked for, it can take up
to two months.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
What do you mean by synthetic or designer Please.
Speaker 7 (09:35):
Like synthetic marijuana, bath salts, those kind of designer drugs
that every so often show up that we don't have
a lot of specific testing for. Some more has to
be done every day that the drug chemists are making
new variations on drugs that the toxicology labs are constantly
having to test for to try and keep ahead.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Of Now another issue straight up to Sydney Suner joining
US Crime Stories investigative reporter Sidney, the word is getting
put out that there was no sex attack and that
drugs or alcohol did not play a contributing factor in
her death. We don't even have the talks report. We
don't have a DNA report, so where is this coming from.
It's premature.
Speaker 10 (10:19):
I agree it's premature. It's coming from family members who
have seen a more detailed death certificate than has been
released to the public.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
But how do we know.
Speaker 10 (10:31):
How do they know this information if those reports have
not been made official. There are so many confusing details
about this case.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Nancy, Yeah, Sidney, I think that people very often they
project what they want to be true. There was a
lot made at the get go, and this is on
a court video. We have it on video where a
civil attorney stated that the teens had been drinking. Now
Carnival Cruz says, oh no, they were absolutely not drinking.
(11:02):
But again, Robert Crispin, the proof will be in the pudding.
Everybody can say whatever they want to say right now.
No sex attack, sex attack, no drugs or alcohol.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Drugs are alcohol in the system.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
We don't have any of those results. And again, remember
the bands that everybody wears on cruise ships. They will
tell it sure whether you I said earlier, had a
bag of chips, much less much less a drink.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Now, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
That Carnival Cruise will give a miner a drink, so
it may very well not show up on a risk band. Again,
they're denying any alcohol was served to a miner, but
could the miner get the alcohol in another way? Haven't
you ever driven up to a seven to eleven and
you see a bunch of teens out there and they're
paying people or asking people to bring them out beer.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
Absolutely, I've seen it. As a matter of fact.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
Carnival's blanket statement has to be that Nancy. They can't
come out to the public and say that they serve
miners at sea.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
They can't do that.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
And any of this information that's coming out is being
released from the family.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
And don't forget Nancy.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
They had at least twenty four hours before that ship
got back to the port of Miami that that family
was able to get together, concoct their story and see
or decide what they're going to release. They had a
lot of time for family, protect family. And that's why
(12:23):
this family may not want to release that she was
sexually assaulted.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
If she was, they didn't want that out there.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Hey, Crispin, Yeah, I learned that Anna was feeling badly.
She's felt poorly. It was because of her braces were
hurting her, and she asked to go back. She asked
to go back to the room early during dinner. She
went back, but then she got dressed up and re emerged.
(12:49):
And what we're learning is she had on this cute
little outfit. But in one report, Crispin, just one, it
said Anne was wrapped only in a blanket with life
Best stuffed over her only only in a blanket, which
led me to believe that she was naked under the blanket.
(13:15):
That's yet to be born out. But if that is true,
or if she was partially clothed, why else would she
have been partially clothed, stuffed under a twin bed, or
naked wrapped in a blanket unless there had been a
sex attack. What I'm saying is just because there's not DNA,
(13:37):
just because there's not sperm on or in her body,
does not mean there was not a sex attack.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Correct.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
And if you go back and you listen to one
of the statements that was made from Anna's ex boyfriend's
father that the step son had climbed on top of
her one night when she was in bed.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
You know, I know that Project Innocence and the Poverty
Law Institute and all the defense bars You're gonna get
mad when I say this, but they could just chew
on this. When you don't know a horse, look at
his track record. Listen.
Speaker 11 (14:16):
She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to
tell anybody because she was scared that he would do
something to her.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Joshua too, says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was
one sided. The sixteen year old is obsessed with Anna
and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even
caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the
two were on FaceTime, Anna already asleep.
Speaker 12 (14:40):
He said that I tried to tell the parents that
this was happening, and they didn't want to believe me.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
He's like infatuated, attracted her like crazy.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
He's always wanted the dator.
Speaker 12 (14:50):
Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is
his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that
Anna's ex boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here.
So keep that in mind, Christopher, I blame you.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
That from Inside Edition and at Just Mom nineteen eighty
four on TikTok, that's Anna's bio. Mom, So explain to
me Shannon Butler, investigative reporter WFTV. According to what we're
learning from her ex boyfriend Joshua Too, it's not just
what she said happened. He was on FaceTime with her.
(15:35):
They were facetiming late at night. Anna fell asleep, but
the FaceTime was still going and he, according to reports,
saw the sixteen year old stepbrother crawl on top of her.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
He saw it.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
It's not just her saying that happened to her, and
then he goes on to state she did not feel
safe around him. She was scared to tell anybody because
she thought he would quote do something to her.
Speaker 9 (16:03):
That is what he said to reporters here.
Speaker 8 (16:06):
He also told his dad that, and his dad told
reporters that there was always this fear Anna had of
her stepbrother, but it wasn't just something that she talked about.
The boyfriend said he knew about it and then he
saw that when it happened on FaceTime and even said
like get off of her.
Speaker 9 (16:23):
So there are a lot of questions about.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
Exactly what Anna told him and if that really happened,
but that was his statement to reporters just after she
was found dead on that Christian.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Two doctor Janey Lacy license p likecho therapist, CEO of
Life Counseling Solutions. She's an author, she's a star of
her own podcast on YouTube, Doctor Janey Lacey, thank you
for being with us. Why wouldn't she tell her parents?
Why did everybody else to know she was afraid of
the teens step brother?
Speaker 13 (16:52):
Well, Nancy, I think this speaks to a larger issue
that I see in blended families, especially sometimes adult minimize
concerning behaviors because acknowledging them, Nancy would mean they have to.
Speaker 14 (17:06):
Confront deeper problems in the family structure.
Speaker 13 (17:09):
And there's often like this pressure to present this unified,
happy family image. But when children don't feel safe and
their safety doesn't come first, especially when a young woman
says she's uncomfortable when a boyfriend reportedly witnessing an appropriate behavior,
I mean, those things can't be dismissed.
Speaker 14 (17:25):
So I would suggest that she probably didn't tell her
parents because of whatever the family dynamics, probably could have
been minimalization, dismissing, or there was no safety there, so
she confided in her boyfriend at the time, and perhaps
of friends. But we see this very common and blended
families when the picture of the happy family comes before
the safety and the feelings of the children.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Nancy to Spencer Erinfeld, known as the Cruz Lawyer, that's
one of his specialties. He's the founder of Aaronfeld Trial Lawyers.
He's also an author. Spencer's thank you for being with us.
Before I take you down the garden path of cruise
ship law. You had to confront this at some point
(18:09):
in court. One in four women look around you. One
in four women and or girls have been sex assaulted
in some way.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Bam.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yet we know it's not reported. We know that the
statistics do not bear out that it is reported. There
is shame attached to it. The girl woman thinks it's
her fault. Wow, did I leave him?
Speaker 15 (18:35):
On?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Was that my fault? Society enforces it? Why she out
with a short skirt?
Speaker 5 (18:40):
On?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Why she out at a bar by herself? Ad nauseum?
The victim is always blamed. And I wonder in this
case if this little girl, it goes to this title
Field Christian School, wants to be a K nine handler.
That's her aspiration. Was afraid no one would believe her
or even blame her.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
What about it?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Aaron Feld?
Speaker 9 (19:04):
Yeah, Unfortunately, it's very true, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (19:06):
Both men and women or the victims of sexual assault
are very reluctant to come forward for all the reasons
you just spoke of, the guilt, the shame, the stigma,
and all my years.
Speaker 9 (19:22):
Of repenting victims of sexual assault on cruise lines, both.
Speaker 6 (19:25):
Men and women, that many of them have been victimized before.
This is not the first time they have been the
victim of sexual abuse, so they have this compounded emotional
paralysis that stops them from reporting it. And Nancy, if
they do, the cruise lines, in my experience, are the
(19:47):
least hopeful to them in getting them the cure they
need and preserving the evidence of these types of assaults,
and the cruise lines are guilty of not reporting them
because those reports have to be on the Department of
Transportation website that will list the number of sexual assaults.
Speaker 9 (20:06):
That happened per cruise line per quarter. And if they're
not reported, the cruise lines don't have to report it.
And if they're not report.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Enough, my stars, that's an incredible fact.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Now. Earlier, doctor Jenny Lacey was describing how some girls
may not come forward and tell their own family about
a family member or relative that is assaulting them. She
brought up that this was a blended family. Well, it's
very blended. Listen.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
By the time Anna is five, Christopher Kaepner is having
an affair with a teenage babysitter. When Tabitha Donna Hugh
turns eighteen, Chris marries her and they have two children together.
Heather has a hard time maintaining a relationship with Anna
due to the bitter divorce with Chris.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
We have reached out to Anna's family, we have not
heard back, and I want to remind everyone that nobody
has been charged tonight. And I'm wondering why we are
told doctor Kendall Crowns that she quote fought for her life.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
How do we know that?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
How could we possibly know that? Tell me Anna Nutshell,
how would we know she quote fought for her life?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
There's evidence.
Speaker 7 (21:34):
Often with strangulations, the evidence is trying to get the
UH objects off your neck, so you'll see scratch marks
on the neck from the individual's fingernails themselves. You can
also see injuries on the person who is the suspect
suspect in the case as well, scratches on their face,
scratches on their arms. If you see intense particular hemorrhages
(21:57):
or small pinpoint hemorrhages on the face, you know that
the compression may have been released and then brought back,
and it could be that sign of a struggle as
well as well as the bruising on her neck could
be from her thrashing about trying to get the restraint
off her neck. So there's a number of signs that
could show that she fought back to try and get
out of the hold.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
A doctor, Kendlegrounds, You're amazing. You just told me two
things I hadn't already thought of. You mentioned that if
the stranglehold him to put on her and then released
and she still kept fighting and it was put back,
(22:40):
you're saying that that would result in additional particular hemorrhage,
which is all the stress. You know, when you're wearing,
you're getting your blood pressure right, and it feels like
part of your arm is going to blow up because
of the pressure. It gets so tight, right, That's what
happens to your eyes. The pressure is so tight that
(23:02):
the tiny blood vessels in your eyes hemorrhage, they burst,
and you see that in asphyxiation strangulation be manual or
ligature or mechanical. So explain to me what you were saying.
If the pressure had been put on your neck, released
and put back, what would you see as evidence of struggle?
Speaker 7 (23:24):
So again, that would be the particular hemorrhages that you're
talking about, the little pinpoint hemorrhages you see in the eye,
but you also see them in the periocular region or
around the eyes as well, can be throughout the face,
the gums. And what happens is it only takes a
little bit of pressure to compress your jugular which is
four point four pounds, and you're crotted, which is eleven
pounds of pressure. And once those are compressed, you do
(23:47):
still have a little bit of vertebral artery circulation coming in.
But what happens when those are released all of a sudden,
that blood comes rushing back into your head. And then
if the compression comes back again, that blood is trapped
second time, and then that can cause the particular hemorrhages
to become more expressed or more pronounced, because you keep
(24:07):
getting that blood flow restored and then compressed, and then
restored and then eventually completely choked off or constricted. And
that's why you'll see more and more bursting of the
hemorrhages because of the blood keeps coming back in and
then getting stopped.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
That helped me a lot, But I still have one
question regarding what does it prove? Is it primitive? Would
the original particular images look different than the second round
of particular hemorhages? I mean, can I look at her
particular images and determine that the pressure had been applied, released,
(24:42):
applied again? Could I tell that strictly from the particular
hemorrhage alone?
Speaker 7 (24:51):
No, No, there would be no way. It's just if
they're really pronounced. Well, I'm telling you the science. But
if it's really pronounced, you can get an idea that
there's been more blood flow restored. But if there's just
minimal particular hemorrhages that occurred initially, it won't be necessarily different.
It's just that the fact that there's more of them
(25:12):
means that there was more more.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
She said something about thrashing her head back and forth.
I'm trying to look for evidence proving a struggle because
we have been told, quote, she fought for her lie.
You mentioned scratches, got it agree?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
But what did you say about her.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Thrashing her head back and forth, which would indicate a struggle.
How can I tell she thrashed.
Speaker 7 (25:37):
Put the neck in a carotted sleeper hoole and she
starts pushing against the pressure on her neck that can
cause the bruising. Also internally, when the skin is dissected
up and you look at the neck muscles, you can
see stretching of stretching hemorrhages of the neck muscles from
them trying to pull out of the hold as well,
(25:57):
So you can see that internally like hemorrhages the musculture
that showed that she was violently fighting against the constrictive
process on her neck.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Anna excuses herself from dinner early, not feeling well. Surveillance
footage shows Anna walking back to and entering the room
she shares with her brothers. After eating, The teen boys
come back to the room before the youngest sibling ventures
out again to explore, leaving Anna and their stepbrother alone.
Speaker 16 (26:23):
Anna's brother heard a heated argument between them in their
cabin the night before Anna was found dead. He heard
the stepbrother yelling at Anna, the sounds of furniture overturning
and screams from inside the room.
Speaker 11 (26:36):
He heard him yelling at her, like in a harmful
way of like shut the hell up and stuff like that.
Like something was like banging around and stuff, and like
the chairs were getting thrown around in the room.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
From Inside Edition, there's an investigation conducted by the FBI
arising out of sudden death of eighteen year old Anna
kept her The little girl was wrapped Anne and sheets,
possibly a blanket. It was a full twenty four hours
before her body.
Speaker 17 (27:04):
Di found.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Anna Kittner, the teen cheerleader, dead on a carnival cruise ship.
The cruise ship insisting there was no alcohol serf to teens,
but in a videoed court hearing, a lawyer says they
were drinking. What is the truth? Don't know yet because
in the last hours a gag order has been placed.
(27:30):
In other words, the medical examiner can't speak. Everybody's clamped down.
Nobody can speak.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Why.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
That's very very unusual. But we're learning a lot because
of divorce proceedings. Listen.
Speaker 17 (27:48):
Court records from stepmom Sean tell Hudson's divorced indicate her
sixteen year old son and his stepbrother may be a
suspect in the teen's murder. The FBI has remained silent.
No charges have been fined.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
I would have difficulty in them putting the sixteen year
old on the stand because I don't want anything done
that would incriminate the young man. So I believe what
they're saying. Shannon Butler joining US w FTV on this
case from the very beginning, joining US out of Florida.
You've got ongoing divorce custody proceedings and and those the
(28:23):
mom of the teen step brother files any emergency here
and saying I'm not answering any questions. Nobody's taking the
stand because it could hurt my son's right to a
fair trial, a fair trial on what obviously the Anna
Kepner murder.
Speaker 8 (28:40):
Yeah, that was the first we had heard about the
stepbrother being a suspect. We didn't get any of that
from investigators. But then you go into this, you know,
separate court case, and that's how that information was revealed,
and that's what kind of started everybody now asking these questions.
And if you, you know, listen to the family members
about that brother. They talk about how he was very
(29:03):
very distraught over this, how they had to he had
to be hospitalized, the behavior.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, the teen
step brother was distraught, distraught, correct, that's what they say. Okay.
Was he distraught about Anna being dead or about him
being a suspect.
Speaker 9 (29:27):
That's still the question.
Speaker 8 (29:29):
The family was very very clear that he was very
very upset after this happened and had to be Hospitalizing.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Spencer Aaronfeld joining us. The cruise lawyer, he's handled so
many cruise ship cases, typically for the complainant, the alleged victim,
not the cruise line.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
He's got to say many.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I tried to count them, couldn't count them. Spencer. We
were told that the team brother was so distraught that
he had to go in the hospital. Then he was
miraculously released from the hospital. He wasn't wearing a band aid,
he wasn't on crutches. Why was he in the hospital?
(30:22):
Was that a delay tactic? Then we were told he
was quote so upset he quote couldn't talk to FBI investigators.
Sounds a lot to me like invoking your right to
remain silent.
Speaker 9 (30:37):
One hundred percent, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (30:39):
And it also destruction of evidence because when he went
to the hospital, I'm sure that he changed his clothes.
Speaker 9 (30:45):
What happened to his clothes.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
I'm sure he was cleaned, and his fingers and what's
under his nails, and all sorts of things that would
have been invaluable evidence to the investigators and prosecutors.
Speaker 9 (30:57):
In this case were probably lost by that. To the hospital.
It really interrupted the chain of custody.
Speaker 15 (31:04):
Of a lot of evidence that would have been left
on him, including potentially bodily fluids and things that may
have been on his hands, on his clothes.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
You know, Spencer Ernfield, you are my own personal chamber
of hers. I hadn't even thought of that yet. The
fact that he goes straight into a hospital setting and
his clothes could be god knows where, Robert Crispin, that's important.
I want to see his clothes. I want to look
(31:35):
for microscopic evidence. I'm wanna look for blood. I'm wanna
look for sperm, I wanna look for her blood. And yes,
I want to see his underwear for obvious reasons. It's
probably all gone, Robert.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
It probably is Nancy.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Hence the long delay before the ship got back to
locking down the crime scene, locking down the people their clothing,
not letting anyone and go anywhere. Intermingle talk to people,
separating everybody.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
It's just it's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 5 (32:08):
Those clothes tell investigators and prosecutors and judges and juries
so much information. It's insane, the information that comes out
of just your clothes, or what comes from underneath your fingernail,
or what comes from actually on your body.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Nancy, come on, how many times have.
Speaker 5 (32:29):
You known or heard where a fingerprint is actually pulled
from a body somebody else's fingerprint.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Also, because of this court hearing, we hear allegations that
the teams have been drinking. Is that true? We don't
know yet.
Speaker 9 (32:44):
Listen, we feel there.
Speaker 18 (32:45):
Are some circumstances regarding that the sixteen year old and
the mother's judgment regarding that cruise that would affect you know,
obviously that her ability to care for the my child,
the nine year old. The sixteen year old was allowed
to drink, the teenagers were given their own room in
(33:09):
which to stay. Just a lot of circumstances that showed
that the mother in this case was not exercising appropriate
supervision over this child.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
And of course the cruise ship is vehemently denying that
the teens had alcohol. Of course, the family is stunned.
They've got Anna dad stuffed under a bed. They've got
the sixteen year old reportedly a target. Listen.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
He was a good student, played soccer.
Speaker 19 (33:41):
He played soccer, very quiet young man. He had demons,
I think in his past and he was trying to
deal with those.
Speaker 17 (33:49):
Barbara and Jeffrey Kepner are shocked Ganna's sixteen year old
stepbrother is being eyed as a suspect and their murder.
Describing them as two peas in a pod and very close.
She says the teen was distraught when he learned and
his body was found and couldn't speak during an initial
interview with FBI agents. Barbara says the teen claims he
can't remember what happened and was hospitalized for psychiatric observation.
(34:11):
When they arrived back in Miami.
Speaker 19 (34:13):
He was an emotional mess. He couldn't even speak. He
couldn't believe what had happened.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
That from our friends at ABC. Did you hear that
doctor Janey Lacy joining us license psychotherapist. He was an
emotional mess. He couldn't speak, he couldn't believe what happened.
He was in the room when it happened. According to
circumstantial evidence, unless we want to believe she choke, helled
(34:42):
herself and stuffed herself under the bunk tonight, no charges.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
What does that mean to you?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
An emotional mess, couldn't speak, couldn't believe what happened.
Speaker 14 (34:50):
It means a couple of things, Nancy. In that interview
her talking about his demon.
Speaker 13 (34:54):
So did the family know that he had some struggles
and they weren't adequately addressed?
Speaker 10 (35:00):
And then the.
Speaker 13 (35:00):
Critical question to me becomes, then where were the adults.
If they were, where are these demons? And if he's
emotionally distressed in these types of things, right, that can
be a shock, truly a shock, because we do have situations, Nancy,
where when people go into what we would call a
narcissistic type of rage when they get some type of
rejection or they're not getting the things that they want,
(35:23):
that in that moment, the heightenedness of their emotional regulation
goes and they can have these moments where they kind
of black out, so to speak, and then when they
come to there's a gravity of what has happened to.
Speaker 14 (35:35):
In their behaviors in the situation. So you know, it
also could be the consciousness of guilt.
Speaker 13 (35:40):
When you have the consciousness of guilt, those emotions can
come on, come on strong, So I would probably say
it's somewhere in those two realms, Nancy.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Then you have the whole other can of worms with
the bio mom. What are we hearing from her?
Speaker 4 (35:55):
A never want friend, they call me and get a
hold of me and anything.
Speaker 9 (35:58):
When he died, I.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Found out through Google, Heather says.
Speaker 17 (36:02):
On top of discovering Anna died through internet searches instead
of her father, captainer also told her she wasn't welcoming
Anna's celebration of life service. She claims Captainer threatened to
have her arrested were a disguise to her own daughter's
memorial so she could say goodbye in peace. Other is
not mentioned in Anna's obituary.
Speaker 12 (36:20):
I'm going to put a wig on and wear some
really tall shoes because I'm four foot.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Nine, was too and inside addition, and back out to
Robert Crispin and private investigator Crispin Special Investigations.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
This is his turf.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
He's joining us from Port of Miami. Did you hear
that the teen.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Step brother.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Is too distraught to speak? First goes into a psychiatric hold,
then he comes out really quickly. Guess he wasn't that ill.
Now he's too upset to talk about what happened in
the room for he and Anna were alone, and she
ends up stuffed under a twin bed, too upset to speak.
He's too upset about quote what happened. He also told
(37:03):
someone he couldn't remember what happened.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
So what is that?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
A temporary blackout?
Speaker 5 (37:10):
So that's not uncommon they don't remember things. Oh, I
feel so bad. I got to go to the hospital.
I can't I can't believe what happened. I don't remember Nancy.
Go back in the history of this kid. There's reports
out there that.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
He's had demons. I want to know what are his demons?
Speaker 5 (37:29):
I want to know did those demons come to light
in that cabin with Anna?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Why do I care about his feelings. I do not
care about his feelings. I care about her dead body, which,
by the way, she's being cremated, so I certainly hope
they got all the evidence that they needed to get
from her body. But that said, why do I have
to keep hearing about him being upset? She's dead?
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Oh That's what I'm upset about, not about his.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
I understand, but that's very, very important to a prosecutor
in law enforcement, because how many times, Nancy, have we
had a suspect who killed someone never went to church
in their life.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
They're a suspect, we can't prove it yet, and all
of a sudden, now they found God. They go to
church every single day. That's a sign.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I'm so glad you said what you just said, because
Shannon Butler, investigative reporter WFTV, you heard what Chrispin just said.
The taine has not been charged. Why has a Tanane
not been charged? That said, he's not even being held
as a suspect. He is walking free. He is quote
(38:42):
under watched, underwatched by who who's watching him?
Speaker 8 (38:47):
Well, that's the frustration from the family and frankly this
community along the coast there, that's the frustration, like when
is something going to happen, When is there going to
be in arrested, When are the answers going to come out?
So much we don't know about this case because the
FBI has not been transparent with their information their investigation,
which is not unusual for the FBI, But there's lots
(39:11):
of information that still is not out there. We can
only assume that they're building the case and that something
will happen soon, but there is no timeline for that.
We don't know how long we'll be sitting here waiting,
and this family will have to wait for some kind
of answer here.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
If you know or think you know anything about Anna's
murder mechanical strangulation, please call seven five four seven zero
three two thousand, repeat seven five four seven zero three
two thousand. It could be something that you observed. It
(39:51):
could be something your child told you that Anna said.
It could be something the teen boyd If you know
or think you know, please help with This investigation is
ongoing and tonight still no charges. We remember an American
(40:14):
hero Officer, Alec Sanders Alambra PD, California, just twenty eight
killed in the line of duty, leaving behind aggrieving fiance.
American Hero Officer Alec Sanders, Nancy Gray signing off goodbye.
Host
Nancy Grace
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