October 28, 2025 • 42 mins
A review of past findings in Ellen Greenberg's death is complete.
The Chief Medical Examiner of Philadelphia, Dr. Lindsay Simon, issued a 32-page report and wrote, "Since Ellen was anxious over grades she had given her elementary school students, and because she was capable of inflicting over 20 stab wounds to the head, chest, neck, and back, her death is ruled a suicide."
Simon writes, "Many of these stab and incised wounds would best be categorized as hesitation wounds." The report also notes the lack of defensive wounds. The pathologist performing Greenberg's autopsy in 2011 documented 20 wounds; Simon's report includes 23.
In the Final Analysis of Ellen's Death, Dr. Lindsay Simon, Chief Medical Examiner of Philadelphia, writes, "Ellen was found dead in her apartment with twenty-three stab and incised wounds. These wounds were limited to her posterior head/neck, right neck, and central front torso.
While the distribution of injuries is admittedly unusual, the fact remains that Ellen would be capable of inflicting these injuries herself. Many of these stab and incised wounds would best be categorized as hesitation wounds. No defensive injuries were identified on her body. There was no evidence to indicate Ellen was incapacitated or incapable of defending herself."
Simon says,"The fiancé's DNA was not detected on the knife used to inflict the injuries. His self-reported timeline of events is corroborated by phone logs, text messages, surveillance footage, keycard swipes, and police interviews.
No evidence was provided to indicate Ellen was in an abusive relationship with her fiancé. There was no evidence of a third party being in the apartment on the day of Ellen's death, nor was anyone else's DNA detected on the knife used to inflict the injuries on Ellen's body. No findings of a struggle were found at the scene, and no valuables were missing.
Simon concludes, "The manner of Ellen Greenberg's death is best classified as 'suicide.'" All opinions stated in this report are expressed with a reasonable degree of medical certainty.
Dr. Simon ends with "The undersigned reserves the right to amend any statements or opinions if presented with additional significant information."
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Judge Pat Dugan - Served the last 17 years as Municipal Court Judge, Army Vet, and Candidate for Philadelphia District Attorney
- Benee Knauer - Author of "What Happened To Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice"
- Guy D’Andrea - Former Prosecutor in Ellen Greenberg Case, Attorney at Laffey Bucci D’Andrea Reich & Ryan
- Caryn Stark - Forensic Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Podcast:"Mayhem in the Morgue," and Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
- John Luciew - (Harrisburg, Pa) Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg (specializes in true crime and cold case investigations for PennLive.com); Author: “Kill the Story;" X: @JohnLuciew
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace family fury after a gorgeous
young bride, Ellen Greenberg stabbed twenty times twenty two zero times,
including in the back, has been real suicide again in
(00:24):
a shuck report tonight. I can't help but ask is
there a cover up? That district attorney has got to go?
I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I just loved it, my prime life. See if the
floor with blood everywhere? Oh no, I can't see anything, shoes,
there's nothing broken.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
She sleeps Ellie, can't see anything. She was stabbed twenty
and miraculously there was very very little blood on the floor.
But that's not the headline. The banner tonight is in
a stunning and I would say shocking report. Bam, a
(01:16):
rubber stamp on the last debucle I'm want to go
straight out to Guy DeAndrea, former prosecutor in the Ellen
Greenberg case, now high profile lawyer at Laffey Bucci de'andrea
ralch and Ryan. Why why is this happening again? What
(01:39):
is wrong with that administration? Did you read this report?
Thirty something pages of BS technical legal term b yes,
total BS.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
It's outrageous, Nancy Grace. I've read it front the back
several times. The seven points that I found that she
relied upon are nonsense. I don't cannot wrap my head
around how she can make these conclusions and light up
everything we know in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, I'm stunned. I'm stunned, and I want to point
out Benay Nour is with me, my co author, and
what happened to Ellen an American miscarriage of justice. By
the way, we're not keeping any money from that. That's
all going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Baney,
(02:29):
you know what I noticed in this new thirty plus
page report. Hey, whoa look at that bruising on her
wrists which was not addressed in the report as a
defensive wound. Bruising around her neck which was not addressed
as a defensive wound. Right there, that's what you call
a fingertip bruise. Look at that. You can actually see
(02:52):
the fingertip markings. What is very critical about those bruises.
There's the door that was quote broken down. What's so
important about these bruises is that they are unrelated to
the stabbings. They are separate bruisings, and they are not
in resolve. In other words, they're not healing. This is
(03:13):
from that evening, and they occurred before the stabbings, because
if they had occurred after she was stabbed dead, you
would not see any hemorrhaging. There wouldn't be any marchings
because the heart is no longer pumping. I'm gonna have
to bring in our doctrine just a moment. He can
say it much better than me. Ben an hour. So
(03:36):
much is left out of this fake autopsy reports, total
bs and you know what to you, doctor Lindsey Simon,
You're full of crap. Next, Benet helped me out. No
mention of the bruises is defensive wounds.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I could not agree more. First of all, this report
is shocking in every way, but in terms of the
bruise is she says in this report that those bruises
are come from being a teacher of little children. I
know many teachers. They are not covered in bruises. I
(04:14):
don't even know what to make of that. But what
really is driven home so powerful, powerfully for me here
is that this does not feel like an unbiased, fresh
new case.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
This feels like a rebuttal.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
To me, it feels like this person, this medical examiner,
took all of the existing evidence and went against every
single thing. It's doubling down to tripling down. But it
feels like a rebuttal, like an argument against what is real,
what is reasonable?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
John Lucy is joining me on the case. From the
very beginning, I almost says, story, but this is no story.
This is real, This happened, and Ellen Greenberg's parents are
thrown into desolation yet again. They're not only fighting on
behalf of their daughter. They've spent their entire life savings,
(05:13):
they had to sell their house, but they are battling,
which to me seems like a corrupt administration. John Lucy,
Journalistpenlive dot com and The Patriot News Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, specializes
in true crime, author of Kill the Story, and he
has been on the Ellen Greenberg murder from day one. Hey,
(05:34):
John Lucy, I taught school while I was waiting to
find out if I got into law school. I didn't
get a single bruise teaching Greek and Roman mythology. What
about that?
Speaker 5 (05:47):
No, I can't explain that either. She had basically cherry
picked every piece of evidence in this case that the
Greenbergs have on earthed that wasn't given initially. They found
a lot of evidence over over a fourteen year investigation,
and Lindsey Simon, the Emmy cherry picks everything in the
(06:12):
favor of the suicide and against the idea of homicide.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Joining us in an all star panel to make sense
of what we are learning tonight. Joining our special guest,
Judge Pat Dugan has served the last seventeen years as
a municipal court judge, has seen it all, also in
the Army Army Reserved twenty three years Captain and now
(06:39):
has his sights set on the Ellen Greenberg debacle. Judge Dugan,
did you know that her mother and father have spent
their entire life savings fighting this suicide? Ruling that first,
when Ellen's body got to the Emmy's office, doctor Marlin
Osborne ruled it a homicide, obviously twenty stats most of
(07:03):
the back for Pete's sake, one slicing into her spinal cord. Then,
after a closed door meeting with a rep, a female
rep from the DA's office who now has immunity, Nobody
can explain why she needs immunity on what went down
in that room and members of the PHILLYPD who already
(07:25):
ruled it a suicide on the scene. They have a
closed door meeting with them, and then he comes out
and says, oh, I'm changing my ruling. After that meeting,
later in a sworn to position, he states they coerced him.
They persuaded him to change his ruling. Can nobody smell
that except me? It stinks?
Speaker 6 (07:44):
So Nancy, Yes, I'm running against the characteristrict attorney right
now and then an election in November. What I'm promising
if I win this election, I will do a top
to bottom review of this entire case. I will bring
in a team of experts, former homicide prosecutors, homicide detectives,
(08:05):
and we will look at the entire record. I will
review it with ethics and as an attorney and as
a former judge. We will look at the Philadelphia District
Attorney's office file. We will look at the Chester Counties
District Attorney's Office file, the Attorney General's file. We will
look at all these autops or reports. We will look
(08:26):
at all the testimony and depositions that have been taken.
We will interview people experts. Some of these people that
are on your panel today and then I will make
a determination whether or not this case should be reopened
because to me, just on its face, this case has
been a black guy for Philadelphia since twenty eleven and
(08:47):
Josh and Sandy.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Judge Diagan, I would never interrupt a judge if I
were trying a case in front of you. So I'm
really enjoying this moment. Judge. Are you currently or have
you ever been married?
Speaker 7 (09:03):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Okay? Has your wife either? Has she ever asked you
to zip up for zipper.
Speaker 8 (09:15):
All the time?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Okay? So did you know what you're talking about? I
will determine if this needs to be reopened. Your wife
can't even zip up her bag zipper.
Speaker 9 (09:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Ellen Greenberg managed to stab herself multiple times in the back,
slicing her spinal cord, which was not really even addressed
in this thirty plus pages of hogwash. Really, and not
only that, I'm sure you're familiar with the quote wrong
way blood on Ellen's face to doctor Kendal Crowns joining
(09:53):
us the chief medical Examiner of Terrant County that's out
of Texas for worth never a lack of business in
their morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnette
School of Medicine at TCU, and he is the star
of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue. Doctor
(10:15):
Kendall crowns on Ellen's face. Blood. She was sitting up,
slumped with her back against the kitchen cabinets. Picture that
her legs splayed out in front of her, A knife
plunged in her chest on her face. I hope you
(10:36):
can see the monitor on her face. Blood was dried
from her nose going horizontally to her ear. Does nobody
get why that is wrong? Could you explain?
Speaker 10 (10:53):
So the blood going horizontally, if her face is upright,
it would should be coming down her face across her lips,
over her chin. She would have to be slumped to
the side with her head tilted at a at a
very awkward angle for it to get that horizontal kind
of bloodstream down the face. It doesn't fit with how
(11:14):
her body was positioned.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I just I just walk into my partner on the
floor with flood everywhere. What is the address.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Bleeding from?
Speaker 7 (11:37):
I don't know what you.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Do.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You have to calm yourself down in order to get
you somehow. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know.
I'm looking at her right now. I don't. I can't
see anything, shouldn't. There's nothing broken, Alie.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
You don't know where she's bleeding from.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Can always from her head. She hit her head everywhere.
Speaker 9 (12:00):
She might have fallen, you know what happened.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
She may have slippers, blood on the on the table,
her her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on
for rescue for her on the phone.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
May have slipped. There is a butcher knife stabbed into
her chest, her heart. She slipped and fell on the knife.
Let's take a listen to more of that nine on
one call.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I just I went downstairs to work out. I came
up up the door and the lash my inside.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
She wasn't. She wasn't answering.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So after about a half hour sometimes of breaking down,
I see her now on the floor.
Speaker 7 (12:40):
She's not she's not responding, okay, breathing. I can't well
get her test. I'm to come down.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I really don't.
Speaker 7 (12:52):
I'm going away up and mail up again.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
I don't see her moving.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
According to the police report, she was not on her back.
Why is he saying she was on her back? She
was sitting up, leaning against the kitchen cabinets. So how
did that happen? Was the body moved? Obviously it was
because blood was dry going the wrong way. She was
found by the fiance sitting up. Let me remind everyone,
no one has been named a person of interest, No
(13:24):
one has been named a suspect in this case. Let's
listen to more of that nine on one call.
Speaker 9 (13:29):
Okay, okay, I tell you what to do.
Speaker 7 (13:34):
Get here. Okay, you now by her fat, You can't
(13:54):
freak out.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Okay, I'm a different.
Speaker 7 (14:02):
Picking out, sticking out. I guess you call it.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Okay, Well, don't you judge, Pat Dugan. She stabbed herself,
that's what was said on the nine one one call.
Or she quote fell on a knife. That was said
on the nine one one call. And apparently the medical
Examiner's office agreed. Could you tell me why a prosecutor,
(14:36):
the female prosecutor from the District Attorney's office, would have
been granted immunity about what happened in that closed door
meeting that they held. She from the DA's office, somebody
from PHILLYPD with the medical examiner who had already ruled
this homicide, and now today says it was a homicide.
(14:57):
But I was pressured to rule it a suicide. That's
in his deposition. Why would a member of the District
Attorney's office have immunity? I didn't have to get immunity
when I was a prosecutor.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Why is that?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
And that's the question.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
I mean, what kind of circumstances could happen behind closed
doors that a prosecutor needs immunity. Well, obviously that points
to some pretty nefarious things that might have gone on.
It's sort of like going into court and pleating the
fifth I don't get it. I want to hear. Why
find out what the hell happened?
Speaker 9 (15:34):
Okay, okay, I tell you what to do. Get here, Okay,
you'l me by her fat.
Speaker 7 (15:59):
Can't freaking out?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Okay, I'm I'm trying to her. Won't come off into
the zipper.
Speaker 7 (16:05):
Oh alright, if she shaded her sellar plan, she sell
her Oh no, her nice checking out kicking out of
her hunter.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I guess I'm working telling it.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I don't know, Okay, well, don't tech it stabbed twenty
times the back of the head to the back of
the next talking inside.
Speaker 7 (16:28):
She wasn't.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
She wasn't answering, So after about half hour, I decided.
Speaker 7 (16:31):
To break it down and take her.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Now it's on the floor, she's not finding.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
A bombshell, A shot report, a rubber stamp by the
medical Examiner's office of an old and highly attacked, highly
questionable medical examer's report stating Ellen Greenberg committed suicide. The
(17:01):
bruises covering her body were not addressed at all except
to say her first grade students must have what mob
attacked her and bruised her. There were fresh bruises on
her wrists, and there were bruises that looked like if
I could see those fingertip bruises around her neck. And
(17:22):
the theory is that she was subdued by strangulation and
then killed by stabbing. This is what we call a
rubber stamp. To Guy DeAndrea joining us, former prosecutor in
this dish attorney's office who waved a red flag, sounded
(17:44):
the bell of alarm that this was not a suicide.
What happened when you did that at the time.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Guy, that's what's crazy. Nancy I, in twenty seventeen, after
doing a full investigation, went to office, including the Medical
Examiner's office, and said, the findings are clear. This is
not a suicide, and they agreed, let me be clear,
the Medical Examiner's office in twenty seventeen, right before I
(18:13):
left the office, agreed that at a minimum this was inconclusive,
and so all they wanted was the neuropathological report to
determine whether it was going to remain inconclusive or move
to a homicide.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
That was how I left things in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
So, Nancy, it's now twenty twenty five and they've reverted
back to this doubling down. So I don't know if
they lied to me or what. But I don't know
what's happening when everyone was on the same page in
January of twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I'm joining US Dodger Kendall, Crown's renowned chief medical examiner
in Fort Worth, Star of Mayhem, and the Morgue and
Lecturerer Burnette School of Medicine. This was a ten inn
kitchen knife. I'm curious about the angle. Was it from
(19:07):
up to down, right to left? What do you make
of the weapon and what can we learn from it?
Speaker 10 (19:15):
So looking at the stab wounds, it appears as several
are superficial, but there are important ones that go very deep.
One getting the aortic arch on getting the liver, the
length of the blade. It can be shoved in because
the skin is elastic, can be pushed further than the
blade is deep. But the main one that is really
(19:37):
upsetting to me is stab wound tea, which I have
a demonstration knife here, but it's entering into the back
of the head and going kind of into the cervical
spine and hitting the epidural surface of the cervical spine,
which is meaning it's coming in contact with C two,
(19:57):
which would instantly make her a quadriplegic. So some of
the photographs you've shown of the neck shows hemorrhages of
the neck. That would be like someone grabbing her by
the neck and putting pressure on her neck. That could
be a strangulation. And the problem is is often with
strangulations is they incapacitate the person, but they don't keep
(20:18):
the strangulation going long enough to kill them. The person
comes back alive. The individual panics and then looks for
another method of killing them, often a knife because they're
very available in the kitchen, and then begins stabbing them.
Some of them are shallow and some of them are deep.
But the one that goes through the neck into the
cervical spine would have incapacitated her immediately, and she shouldn't
(20:42):
have been able to stick a knife in her chest
after that because she wouldn't have had any function to
her arms or legs or anything at that moment. So
it's very very.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Suspect to me.
Speaker 10 (20:54):
It's not a suicide at best, I'd say undetermined, but
it really looks like a homicide.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Me.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, if it's not, put him up please, you know,
doctor Kimdall Crowns, is very rare that I get to
cross examine a medical examiner and think I actually know
something more than they did. But you said, at best
it's inconclusive. Isn't it true that there are only a
very limited modes of death manner of death. You've got
(21:24):
a lot of causes of death. You can be drowned,
you can die in an accident, you can uh. Modes
of death. Manners of death are accident, natural causes, right, suicide,
homicide and undetermined?
Speaker 9 (21:45):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So I don't have all the did I get them all? Okay?
So do you think this is.
Speaker 10 (21:55):
Suicide or homicide?
Speaker 6 (21:57):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:57):
No, it's not an accidents, not natural source.
Speaker 10 (22:00):
Of a phone call that she could have fallen on
the knife, which is entertaining, but it could be a
suicider or homicide, right, And the problem is is you
have wounds on the body that would incapacitate her, and
how could she continue functioning after those wounds occurred? And
again without all the information, I would like to see
(22:21):
the photographs and the scene pictures and all that, but
I feel like what I'm seeing right now, and yes,
a bruise of that nature is not going to be
caused by a first grader because they don't have the look.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Look, do you see the resolving bruises to the right.
Those are blue, Those are what we call in resolution.
Those are older, they're already turning blue, they're starting to dissipate.
The bright purple one is the one that is recent.
Explain how we know that.
Speaker 10 (22:57):
So bruses go through different colors stages as they resolve
or heal. Of course, everybody's resolution is different and how
quickly they heal and how quickly they disappear. But when
you're looking at bruises, you can say those bruises occurred
during different time periods because the ones are kind of
a blue gray, whereas the one in the middle is
(23:17):
a reddish brown of reddish purple coloration. So the big
reddish purple one happened before the other two did. But
the problem I have with that bruises. There's no way
a first grader did that to her because they don't
have the power, They don't have the grip strength, they
don't have the ability to punch that hard. That to
me looks like someone grabbed her by the arm and
was holding her arm down while they while they were
(23:40):
sticking a knife into the back of her head.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Regarding the bruise we're showing right now, once someone is dead,
they cannot bruise. Isn't that correct, Doctor funeral crowns.
Speaker 10 (23:51):
That's correct. Once you're dead, you no longer have your
blood pumping because the pressure is gone and the bruises
won't form.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Another thing in the new medical report translation, cover up,
rubber stamp cya, cover your anus. These bruises are as
we've already mentioned, attributed to her first grade students. Nothing
(24:20):
explains away the post mortem stab, the stab that didn't
bleed because she was already dead. What she did that
to Could you explain why that is? A non secretary
does not follow.
Speaker 10 (24:38):
Well Again, anytime you stab a person after their heart
stop beating, there will be no blood in the wound
cavity because there's no pressure left to fill it up
with blood. So any wound that has no blood happened
after she died, and so that makes it impossible to
have occurred. But again I still maintain that I feel
that cervical spines dab would have incapacitated her immediately.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Look at the diagram you're talking about the knife going
in from what we see right behind her ear. Is
that the stab you're talking about?
Speaker 10 (25:12):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
John Lucy joining us, author of Kill the Story, who's
been on this case from the beginning. For those that
are not familiar with the post mortem stab, could you
explain it, John Lucy, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
This was something that was only came to light years after,
and only because the Greenbergs were pressing the case. But
they found a sample of Ellen's spinal cord that had
been incised with a knife, and they determined there was
no bleeding. And then they had the pathologist who examined
the tissue on this under oath and she admitted there
(25:55):
was no blood associated with that wound, and that one
of the explanations was it it was post mortem. Now
in the new report, doctor Lindsay Simon offers another explanation.
Again she cherry picked everything and made the conclusions all
favored suicide. She says that nick to the spinal cord
(26:16):
was done at odutopsy. Of course that's been rejected by
the Greenberg's case.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
So now she's blaming the post mortem stab on the
medical examiner. That they must have stabbed the victim. They
must have stabbed Ellen during autopsy.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Yes, that is the explanation she is using in the report,
and she is saying all of Ellen was alive when
all of the wounds were sustained by her, and she
actually ups the number of stab wounds to twenty three
to Chancre, she's saying she found up to eight shallow wounds,
(26:57):
which she describes as hesitation wounds, which are common to
suicides by stabbing. In other words, shallows put him up.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
They're called exploratory or experimental wounds when somebody's trying to
stab themselves and they don't really have the guts to
do it, so they're kind of like trying it out.
John Lucy, are you familiar with the methods and Assessment
of homicide and suicide which reveals how unlikely it is
(27:33):
for a female to stab herself dead. Yes, practically never. Also,
many of the experimental exploratory wounds were to her back.
Isn't that true, John Lucy?
Speaker 5 (27:52):
Yes, and the Greenbergs, to their credit, had a computer
simulation of all the wounds in place an imaginary digital
life into the direction of each stab wound based on
all the notes at autopsy, and it clearly shows basically
it was biomechanically impossible for her to inflict a lot
(28:13):
of those wounds to her back of the head and neck.
But again doctor Lindsay Simon takes the other side and
says that while these were the distribution of wounds were unusual,
her words, they were not impossible.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
So and again impossible, Okay, if you want to believe
the first graders attacked her and she is an Olympic
gymnast and could do a contortion to stab herself in
the back, and isn't it true Doctor Kendall Crown's chief
medical Examiner Terren County, that you would have to do
(28:54):
experiments to determine whether she could stab herself in the
back and whether she could to have herself after she's
already dead. But there were no measurements taken off her
arms or to determine was this even possible. None of
that was done.
Speaker 10 (29:14):
Correct, None of that was done. And also wounds were
not documented. Even those wounds of the photographs that you
have with the bruises on the neck were not documented
in the report. So to me, there's information that wasn't
even put in the report to begin with, So it
makes the whole thing questionable.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
To the back a horrible gasp on the back of
her head.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Kick her head. I think she hit her head.
Speaker 9 (29:43):
I think.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Straight out to my co author benet now Or, who
tirelessly comed through facts with me to write what happened
to Ellen, got a question for you, Bene during all
these nine one one calls, I don't hear a peep
from the doorman, The doorman that the fiance says came
(30:09):
up with him to watch him as a witness. I guess,
break down the door. Why am I not hearing the
doorman at all? On the nine one one calls if
he was standing right there at the door like the fiance.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Said, because he swears and said so you know in
a deposition that he was not there, that he never
left his post. The doorman swears unwaveringly and said so
in a deposition that he was not at that door,
(30:46):
that he was asked by Sam Goldberg to accompany him
there but did not, that he could not leave his
post and he was not there period.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Bennet, you spoke with the dorman, Yes, what did he
tell you happened the night Allen was murdered.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
He said that Sam Goldberg asked him to accompany him
to the apartment, and that he said he could not
leave his post.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
He said that video.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Shows that he did not leave his post, He was
not there, and.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
He said anything.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
That that is an out and out lie. That never happened.
Anyone who says he did that is lying.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Bene Hour, How did this whole thing start with dorman?
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Sam Goldberg went to him, explained that he was having
trouble getting into the apartment where his fiancee was. He
couldn't get in. He asked the doorman to go with
him to accompany him to the apartment, and the doorman said,
I absolutely cannot leave my post and did not go
(31:55):
with Sam. He swears and said in the deposition that
he did not leave his positions, his posts, and did
not accompany Sam Goldberg to the door. That he was
not there, He was not standing there when the call
was made to nine to one one, that he did
not go with him. He did not witness anything that
happened there personally.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
So there were no witnesses to the fiance breaking down
the door, and the dorman did not go up as
a witness. Correct.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
And he swears to that absolutely and says anybody who
says otherwise is lying, and that there is no video evidence.
Speaker 7 (32:37):
Of it, that he was not there.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
So the video bears out what the dorman is saying.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace to Judge Pat Dugan seventeen
years on the bench, former Army Captain Judge Dugan, why
won't the District Attorney's office hand over Ellen's file to
(33:10):
her parents?
Speaker 6 (33:13):
So what I really don't understand is that mister Krasner
actually represented there the Greenberg's in the death of Ellen
before he was the District Attorney, So he had a
personal file involved in this case before he was the DA.
And according to Josh and Sandy, they've asked mister Krasner
(33:35):
for that file back, and for whatever reason, he's not
given back that file. Now, there might be a few
things in there that Krasner wants to keep, you know,
deep thoughts and all that, but most of that should
be turned over to the client. So I don't understand
why that personal file for for Ellen's parents have not
(33:58):
been turned over to them. I believe belongs to them.
Speaker 8 (34:01):
The police changed their theory on homicide because they could
not find defensive wounds. So let's start there. Ellen's wrists
were both badly bruised, like she was being restrained. Number two,
there were wounds to her neck consistent with strangulation. Number three,
(34:26):
the two wounds that were in Ellen's back of her
neck and in her chest. The medical examiner of the
medical examiners before she was dismissed said that those were
post mortem. We've been looking at the knife wounds. We
should have looked at strangulation. I Patiki et cetera. Looking
at the layers of the muscle around the neck for bleeding.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
From Fox News Digital, figure out how could that be
ruled suicide? It seemingly never ends. I remember do you
(35:11):
been an hour? The elation we shared with Josh and
Sandy Greenberg when a new review was ordered a new
review of the evidence. I guess I should have seen
it coming when you don't know a horse, look at
his track record. But I genuinely thought that there would
(35:32):
be an impartial review and Ellen could finally get justice.
That did not happen. Why are we so naive it?
Speaker 4 (35:43):
There's not a better word than stunning and outrageous for
all of this.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
And I have heard.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I have listened to that nine to one one recording
no fewer than fifty times, and it still takes my
breath away. She stabbed herself bell on the knife. It's
beyond comprehension. And when it was announced that this would
be reopened, people were thrilled. And I cannot tell you
(36:11):
the outpouring that I received after this news that it
was labeled a suicide. Again from people on Instagram via email,
getting called it's stunning, it's outrageous, it's unbelievable and devastating.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
It can't be real. Wouldn't you agree? John Lucy, journalistpenlive
dot com and the patient Newshresburg, PA, author of killed
the Story. Wouldn't you agree Lucy that the last thing Shapiro,
the governor of Pennsylvania, who was then the state attorney general,
(36:51):
the top colp of the state had been the district attorney.
The last thing he needs to see chries to wedge
his big toe back into the Oval office like he
did with Harris, that close, that close to the Oval offices. Man,
The last thing he needs is Ellen Greenberg rising up
from the dead to bite him in the neck. In
(37:14):
other words, a full on investigation of the DA staff
coercing the medical Lexander to change is ruling, and the
ag Shapiro rubber stamping that instead of doing anything about it.
That's like, you know, biting a snake bite to the neck.
Speaker 5 (37:38):
He doesn't want that, No, absolutely not. And he was
questioned right after the settlement that the Greensburg reached in February,
had a press conference that was called for another reason,
but a reporter there pressed him on the Greenberg case.
He doubled down on suicide before the new me doubled
(38:01):
down on suicide. And certainly any investigation that would show
otherwise would make Shapiro look bad because he had this
case as Attorney General of PA for four long years
and nothing happened. He claims there was a thorough investigation
and everything he turned up pointed to suicide as well,
(38:25):
and he's on record reiterating that as recently as earlier
this year. So certainly as this gains momentum, and as
you see, it's a political football now and play in
the Philly das race, so it could be an issue.
And I'm online all the time and on X and
(38:47):
it's all over the place, and a lot of fingers
are pointing at Shapiro.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
To Judge Pat Dugan, seventeen years on the bench, Army
captain for the Philadelphia District Attorney's position, it seems like
an unholy caval. I mean, I'm on the outside looking in.
(39:12):
I'm just a trial lawyer. My specialty homicide. That's really
all I know how to do. And I can tell
you right now, Dugan, this is no suicide. So the
only way to get around that, which I know to
be true, is that for some reason, they don't want
(39:36):
this case reopened. So you are going to be up
against it. Everyone will be against you when you try
to reopen his case if you get that far.
Speaker 6 (39:46):
So, Nancy, I guess I'm a unicorn. I swore the
oath as a soldier and as a judge to hold
up honor and justice I am not worried about politics.
I'm running for office, but I really don't care about
the Democrats the Republicans, I really don't care. I care
(40:06):
about the victims and the rule of law. I've been
a public servant almost my entire life, and that both
does not have an end date on it. So I
honestly don't care where the pressure comes from. Wherever the
evidence leads me to is where I will go with
that evidence, particularly pertaining to the death of someone.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Reminder, no one has been charged or named as a
person of interest in the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Her
parents need our help. If you know or think you
know anything about this case, regardless of whether you think
it's inconsequential, doesn't matter. First of all, don't call the
(40:51):
Governor's office, don't call Shapiro, don't call the Attorney General.
So call the US Attorney appointed for the Eastern District
of Pennsylvania, which governs this jurisdiction of Philadelphia. We have
to bring in the FEDS, and I implore you to
(41:12):
please call the US Attorney in that jurisdiction. David Metcalf
number two one five eight six 't one eighty two hundred,
repeat two one five eight six' one eighty two one.
HUNDRED i never envisioned a day THAT i would, advise
(41:32):
don't call the, governor don't call the district. Attorney but
that day has. Come we stopped and remember An american,
Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nuna's San Bernardino County, Sheriff's, california
just twenty eight shot in the line of, duty leaving
(41:53):
behind his pregnant wife and their two years year old.
Daughter american Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nunez Nancy grace signing
off goodbye, friend
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace family fury after a gorgeous
young bride, Ellen Greenberg stabbed twenty times twenty two zero times,
including in the back, has been real suicide again in
(00:24):
a shuck report tonight. I can't help but ask is
there a cover up? That district attorney has got to go?
I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I just loved it, my prime life. See if the
floor with blood everywhere? Oh no, I can't see anything, shoes,
there's nothing broken.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
She sleeps Ellie, can't see anything. She was stabbed twenty
and miraculously there was very very little blood on the floor.
But that's not the headline. The banner tonight is in
a stunning and I would say shocking report. Bam, a
(01:16):
rubber stamp on the last debucle I'm want to go
straight out to Guy DeAndrea, former prosecutor in the Ellen
Greenberg case, now high profile lawyer at Laffey Bucci de'andrea
ralch and Ryan. Why why is this happening again? What
(01:39):
is wrong with that administration? Did you read this report?
Thirty something pages of BS technical legal term b yes,
total BS.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
It's outrageous, Nancy Grace. I've read it front the back
several times. The seven points that I found that she
relied upon are nonsense. I don't cannot wrap my head
around how she can make these conclusions and light up
everything we know in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, I'm stunned. I'm stunned, and I want to point
out Benay Nour is with me, my co author, and
what happened to Ellen an American miscarriage of justice. By
the way, we're not keeping any money from that. That's
all going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Baney,
(02:29):
you know what I noticed in this new thirty plus
page report. Hey, whoa look at that bruising on her
wrists which was not addressed in the report as a
defensive wound. Bruising around her neck which was not addressed
as a defensive wound. Right there, that's what you call
a fingertip bruise. Look at that. You can actually see
(02:52):
the fingertip markings. What is very critical about those bruises.
There's the door that was quote broken down. What's so
important about these bruises is that they are unrelated to
the stabbings. They are separate bruisings, and they are not
in resolve. In other words, they're not healing. This is
(03:13):
from that evening, and they occurred before the stabbings, because
if they had occurred after she was stabbed dead, you
would not see any hemorrhaging. There wouldn't be any marchings
because the heart is no longer pumping. I'm gonna have
to bring in our doctrine just a moment. He can
say it much better than me. Ben an hour. So
(03:36):
much is left out of this fake autopsy reports, total
bs and you know what to you, doctor Lindsey Simon,
You're full of crap. Next, Benet helped me out. No
mention of the bruises is defensive wounds.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I could not agree more. First of all, this report
is shocking in every way, but in terms of the
bruise is she says in this report that those bruises
are come from being a teacher of little children. I
know many teachers. They are not covered in bruises. I
(04:14):
don't even know what to make of that. But what
really is driven home so powerful, powerfully for me here
is that this does not feel like an unbiased, fresh
new case.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
This feels like a rebuttal.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
To me, it feels like this person, this medical examiner,
took all of the existing evidence and went against every
single thing. It's doubling down to tripling down. But it
feels like a rebuttal, like an argument against what is real,
what is reasonable?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
John Lucy is joining me on the case. From the
very beginning, I almost says, story, but this is no story.
This is real, This happened, and Ellen Greenberg's parents are
thrown into desolation yet again. They're not only fighting on
behalf of their daughter. They've spent their entire life savings,
(05:13):
they had to sell their house, but they are battling,
which to me seems like a corrupt administration. John Lucy,
Journalistpenlive dot com and The Patriot News Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, specializes
in true crime, author of Kill the Story, and he
has been on the Ellen Greenberg murder from day one. Hey,
(05:34):
John Lucy, I taught school while I was waiting to
find out if I got into law school. I didn't
get a single bruise teaching Greek and Roman mythology. What
about that?
Speaker 5 (05:47):
No, I can't explain that either. She had basically cherry
picked every piece of evidence in this case that the
Greenbergs have on earthed that wasn't given initially. They found
a lot of evidence over over a fourteen year investigation,
and Lindsey Simon, the Emmy cherry picks everything in the
(06:12):
favor of the suicide and against the idea of homicide.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Joining us in an all star panel to make sense
of what we are learning tonight. Joining our special guest,
Judge Pat Dugan has served the last seventeen years as
a municipal court judge, has seen it all, also in
the Army Army Reserved twenty three years Captain and now
(06:39):
has his sights set on the Ellen Greenberg debacle. Judge Dugan,
did you know that her mother and father have spent
their entire life savings fighting this suicide? Ruling that first,
when Ellen's body got to the Emmy's office, doctor Marlin
Osborne ruled it a homicide, obviously twenty stats most of
(07:03):
the back for Pete's sake, one slicing into her spinal cord. Then,
after a closed door meeting with a rep, a female
rep from the DA's office who now has immunity, Nobody
can explain why she needs immunity on what went down
in that room and members of the PHILLYPD who already
(07:25):
ruled it a suicide on the scene. They have a
closed door meeting with them, and then he comes out
and says, oh, I'm changing my ruling. After that meeting,
later in a sworn to position, he states they coerced him.
They persuaded him to change his ruling. Can nobody smell
that except me? It stinks?
Speaker 6 (07:44):
So Nancy, Yes, I'm running against the characteristrict attorney right
now and then an election in November. What I'm promising
if I win this election, I will do a top
to bottom review of this entire case. I will bring
in a team of experts, former homicide prosecutors, homicide detectives,
(08:05):
and we will look at the entire record. I will
review it with ethics and as an attorney and as
a former judge. We will look at the Philadelphia District
Attorney's office file. We will look at the Chester Counties
District Attorney's Office file, the Attorney General's file. We will
look at all these autops or reports. We will look
(08:26):
at all the testimony and depositions that have been taken.
We will interview people experts. Some of these people that
are on your panel today and then I will make
a determination whether or not this case should be reopened
because to me, just on its face, this case has
been a black guy for Philadelphia since twenty eleven and
(08:47):
Josh and Sandy.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Judge Diagan, I would never interrupt a judge if I
were trying a case in front of you. So I'm
really enjoying this moment. Judge. Are you currently or have
you ever been married?
Speaker 7 (09:03):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Okay? Has your wife either? Has she ever asked you
to zip up for zipper.
Speaker 8 (09:15):
All the time?
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Okay? So did you know what you're talking about? I
will determine if this needs to be reopened. Your wife
can't even zip up her bag zipper.
Speaker 9 (09:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Ellen Greenberg managed to stab herself multiple times in the back,
slicing her spinal cord, which was not really even addressed
in this thirty plus pages of hogwash. Really, and not
only that, I'm sure you're familiar with the quote wrong
way blood on Ellen's face to doctor Kendal Crowns joining
(09:53):
us the chief medical Examiner of Terrant County that's out
of Texas for worth never a lack of business in
their morgue. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnette
School of Medicine at TCU, and he is the star
of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue. Doctor
(10:15):
Kendall crowns on Ellen's face. Blood. She was sitting up,
slumped with her back against the kitchen cabinets. Picture that
her legs splayed out in front of her, A knife
plunged in her chest on her face. I hope you
(10:36):
can see the monitor on her face. Blood was dried
from her nose going horizontally to her ear. Does nobody
get why that is wrong? Could you explain?
Speaker 10 (10:53):
So the blood going horizontally, if her face is upright,
it would should be coming down her face across her lips,
over her chin. She would have to be slumped to
the side with her head tilted at a at a
very awkward angle for it to get that horizontal kind
of bloodstream down the face. It doesn't fit with how
(11:14):
her body was positioned.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I just I just walk into my partner on the
floor with flood everywhere. What is the address.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Bleeding from?
Speaker 7 (11:37):
I don't know what you.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Do.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
You have to calm yourself down in order to get
you somehow. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know.
I'm looking at her right now. I don't. I can't
see anything, shouldn't. There's nothing broken, Alie.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
You don't know where she's bleeding from.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Can always from her head. She hit her head everywhere.
Speaker 9 (12:00):
She might have fallen, you know what happened.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
She may have slippers, blood on the on the table,
her her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on
for rescue for her on the phone.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
May have slipped. There is a butcher knife stabbed into
her chest, her heart. She slipped and fell on the knife.
Let's take a listen to more of that nine on
one call.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I just I went downstairs to work out. I came
up up the door and the lash my inside.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
She wasn't. She wasn't answering.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So after about a half hour sometimes of breaking down,
I see her now on the floor.
Speaker 7 (12:40):
She's not she's not responding, okay, breathing. I can't well
get her test. I'm to come down.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
I really don't.
Speaker 7 (12:52):
I'm going away up and mail up again.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
I don't see her moving.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
According to the police report, she was not on her back.
Why is he saying she was on her back? She
was sitting up, leaning against the kitchen cabinets. So how
did that happen? Was the body moved? Obviously it was
because blood was dry going the wrong way. She was
found by the fiance sitting up. Let me remind everyone,
no one has been named a person of interest, No
(13:24):
one has been named a suspect in this case. Let's
listen to more of that nine on one call.
Speaker 9 (13:29):
Okay, okay, I tell you what to do.
Speaker 7 (13:34):
Get here. Okay, you now by her fat, You can't
(13:54):
freak out.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Okay, I'm a different.
Speaker 7 (14:02):
Picking out, sticking out. I guess you call it.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Okay, Well, don't you judge, Pat Dugan. She stabbed herself,
that's what was said on the nine one one call.
Or she quote fell on a knife. That was said
on the nine one one call. And apparently the medical
Examiner's office agreed. Could you tell me why a prosecutor,
(14:36):
the female prosecutor from the District Attorney's office, would have
been granted immunity about what happened in that closed door
meeting that they held. She from the DA's office, somebody
from PHILLYPD with the medical examiner who had already ruled
this homicide, and now today says it was a homicide.
(14:57):
But I was pressured to rule it a suicide. That's
in his deposition. Why would a member of the District
Attorney's office have immunity? I didn't have to get immunity
when I was a prosecutor.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Why is that?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
And that's the question.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
I mean, what kind of circumstances could happen behind closed
doors that a prosecutor needs immunity. Well, obviously that points
to some pretty nefarious things that might have gone on.
It's sort of like going into court and pleating the
fifth I don't get it. I want to hear. Why
find out what the hell happened?
Speaker 9 (15:34):
Okay, okay, I tell you what to do. Get here, Okay,
you'l me by her fat.
Speaker 7 (15:59):
Can't freaking out?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Okay, I'm I'm trying to her. Won't come off into
the zipper.
Speaker 7 (16:05):
Oh alright, if she shaded her sellar plan, she sell
her Oh no, her nice checking out kicking out of
her hunter.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I guess I'm working telling it.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I don't know, Okay, well, don't tech it stabbed twenty
times the back of the head to the back of
the next talking inside.
Speaker 7 (16:28):
She wasn't.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
She wasn't answering, So after about half hour, I decided.
Speaker 7 (16:31):
To break it down and take her.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Now it's on the floor, she's not finding.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
A bombshell, A shot report, a rubber stamp by the
medical Examiner's office of an old and highly attacked, highly
questionable medical examer's report stating Ellen Greenberg committed suicide. The
(17:01):
bruises covering her body were not addressed at all except
to say her first grade students must have what mob
attacked her and bruised her. There were fresh bruises on
her wrists, and there were bruises that looked like if
I could see those fingertip bruises around her neck. And
(17:22):
the theory is that she was subdued by strangulation and
then killed by stabbing. This is what we call a
rubber stamp. To Guy DeAndrea joining us, former prosecutor in
this dish attorney's office who waved a red flag, sounded
(17:44):
the bell of alarm that this was not a suicide.
What happened when you did that at the time.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Guy, that's what's crazy. Nancy I, in twenty seventeen, after
doing a full investigation, went to office, including the Medical
Examiner's office, and said, the findings are clear. This is
not a suicide, and they agreed, let me be clear,
the Medical Examiner's office in twenty seventeen, right before I
(18:13):
left the office, agreed that at a minimum this was inconclusive,
and so all they wanted was the neuropathological report to
determine whether it was going to remain inconclusive or move
to a homicide.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
That was how I left things in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
So, Nancy, it's now twenty twenty five and they've reverted
back to this doubling down. So I don't know if
they lied to me or what. But I don't know
what's happening when everyone was on the same page in
January of twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
I'm joining US Dodger Kendall, Crown's renowned chief medical examiner
in Fort Worth, Star of Mayhem, and the Morgue and
Lecturerer Burnette School of Medicine. This was a ten inn
kitchen knife. I'm curious about the angle. Was it from
(19:07):
up to down, right to left? What do you make
of the weapon and what can we learn from it?
Speaker 10 (19:15):
So looking at the stab wounds, it appears as several
are superficial, but there are important ones that go very deep.
One getting the aortic arch on getting the liver, the
length of the blade. It can be shoved in because
the skin is elastic, can be pushed further than the
blade is deep. But the main one that is really
(19:37):
upsetting to me is stab wound tea, which I have
a demonstration knife here, but it's entering into the back
of the head and going kind of into the cervical
spine and hitting the epidural surface of the cervical spine,
which is meaning it's coming in contact with C two,
(19:57):
which would instantly make her a quadriplegic. So some of
the photographs you've shown of the neck shows hemorrhages of
the neck. That would be like someone grabbing her by
the neck and putting pressure on her neck. That could
be a strangulation. And the problem is is often with
strangulations is they incapacitate the person, but they don't keep
(20:18):
the strangulation going long enough to kill them. The person
comes back alive. The individual panics and then looks for
another method of killing them, often a knife because they're
very available in the kitchen, and then begins stabbing them.
Some of them are shallow and some of them are deep.
But the one that goes through the neck into the
cervical spine would have incapacitated her immediately, and she shouldn't
(20:42):
have been able to stick a knife in her chest
after that because she wouldn't have had any function to
her arms or legs or anything at that moment. So
it's very very.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Suspect to me.
Speaker 10 (20:54):
It's not a suicide at best, I'd say undetermined, but
it really looks like a homicide.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Me.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, if it's not, put him up please, you know,
doctor Kimdall Crowns, is very rare that I get to
cross examine a medical examiner and think I actually know
something more than they did. But you said, at best
it's inconclusive. Isn't it true that there are only a
very limited modes of death manner of death. You've got
(21:24):
a lot of causes of death. You can be drowned,
you can die in an accident, you can uh. Modes
of death. Manners of death are accident, natural causes, right, suicide,
homicide and undetermined?
Speaker 9 (21:45):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So I don't have all the did I get them all? Okay?
So do you think this is.
Speaker 10 (21:55):
Suicide or homicide?
Speaker 6 (21:57):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:57):
No, it's not an accidents, not natural source.
Speaker 10 (22:00):
Of a phone call that she could have fallen on
the knife, which is entertaining, but it could be a
suicider or homicide, right, And the problem is is you
have wounds on the body that would incapacitate her, and
how could she continue functioning after those wounds occurred? And
again without all the information, I would like to see
(22:21):
the photographs and the scene pictures and all that, but
I feel like what I'm seeing right now, and yes,
a bruise of that nature is not going to be
caused by a first grader because they don't have the look.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Look, do you see the resolving bruises to the right.
Those are blue, Those are what we call in resolution.
Those are older, they're already turning blue, they're starting to dissipate.
The bright purple one is the one that is recent.
Explain how we know that.
Speaker 10 (22:57):
So bruses go through different colors stages as they resolve
or heal. Of course, everybody's resolution is different and how
quickly they heal and how quickly they disappear. But when
you're looking at bruises, you can say those bruises occurred
during different time periods because the ones are kind of
a blue gray, whereas the one in the middle is
(23:17):
a reddish brown of reddish purple coloration. So the big
reddish purple one happened before the other two did. But
the problem I have with that bruises. There's no way
a first grader did that to her because they don't
have the power, They don't have the grip strength, they
don't have the ability to punch that hard. That to
me looks like someone grabbed her by the arm and
was holding her arm down while they while they were
(23:40):
sticking a knife into the back of her head.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Regarding the bruise we're showing right now, once someone is dead,
they cannot bruise. Isn't that correct, Doctor funeral crowns.
Speaker 10 (23:51):
That's correct. Once you're dead, you no longer have your
blood pumping because the pressure is gone and the bruises
won't form.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Another thing in the new medical report translation, cover up,
rubber stamp cya, cover your anus. These bruises are as
we've already mentioned, attributed to her first grade students. Nothing
(24:20):
explains away the post mortem stab, the stab that didn't
bleed because she was already dead. What she did that
to Could you explain why that is? A non secretary
does not follow.
Speaker 10 (24:38):
Well Again, anytime you stab a person after their heart
stop beating, there will be no blood in the wound
cavity because there's no pressure left to fill it up
with blood. So any wound that has no blood happened
after she died, and so that makes it impossible to
have occurred. But again I still maintain that I feel
that cervical spines dab would have incapacitated her immediately.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Look at the diagram you're talking about the knife going
in from what we see right behind her ear. Is
that the stab you're talking about?
Speaker 10 (25:12):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
John Lucy joining us, author of Kill the Story, who's
been on this case from the beginning. For those that
are not familiar with the post mortem stab, could you
explain it, John Lucy, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
This was something that was only came to light years after,
and only because the Greenbergs were pressing the case. But
they found a sample of Ellen's spinal cord that had
been incised with a knife, and they determined there was
no bleeding. And then they had the pathologist who examined
the tissue on this under oath and she admitted there
(25:55):
was no blood associated with that wound, and that one
of the explanations was it it was post mortem. Now
in the new report, doctor Lindsay Simon offers another explanation.
Again she cherry picked everything and made the conclusions all
favored suicide. She says that nick to the spinal cord
(26:16):
was done at odutopsy. Of course that's been rejected by
the Greenberg's case.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
So now she's blaming the post mortem stab on the
medical examiner. That they must have stabbed the victim. They
must have stabbed Ellen during autopsy.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Yes, that is the explanation she is using in the report,
and she is saying all of Ellen was alive when
all of the wounds were sustained by her, and she
actually ups the number of stab wounds to twenty three
to Chancre, she's saying she found up to eight shallow wounds,
(26:57):
which she describes as hesitation wounds, which are common to
suicides by stabbing. In other words, shallows put him up.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
They're called exploratory or experimental wounds when somebody's trying to
stab themselves and they don't really have the guts to
do it, so they're kind of like trying it out.
John Lucy, are you familiar with the methods and Assessment
of homicide and suicide which reveals how unlikely it is
(27:33):
for a female to stab herself dead. Yes, practically never. Also,
many of the experimental exploratory wounds were to her back.
Isn't that true, John Lucy?
Speaker 5 (27:52):
Yes, and the Greenbergs, to their credit, had a computer
simulation of all the wounds in place an imaginary digital
life into the direction of each stab wound based on
all the notes at autopsy, and it clearly shows basically
it was biomechanically impossible for her to inflict a lot
(28:13):
of those wounds to her back of the head and neck.
But again doctor Lindsay Simon takes the other side and
says that while these were the distribution of wounds were unusual,
her words, they were not impossible.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
So and again impossible, Okay, if you want to believe
the first graders attacked her and she is an Olympic
gymnast and could do a contortion to stab herself in
the back, and isn't it true Doctor Kendall Crown's chief
medical Examiner Terren County, that you would have to do
(28:54):
experiments to determine whether she could stab herself in the
back and whether she could to have herself after she's
already dead. But there were no measurements taken off her
arms or to determine was this even possible. None of
that was done.
Speaker 10 (29:14):
Correct, None of that was done. And also wounds were
not documented. Even those wounds of the photographs that you
have with the bruises on the neck were not documented
in the report. So to me, there's information that wasn't
even put in the report to begin with, So it
makes the whole thing questionable.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
To the back a horrible gasp on the back of
her head.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Kick her head. I think she hit her head.
Speaker 9 (29:43):
I think.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Straight out to my co author benet now Or, who
tirelessly comed through facts with me to write what happened
to Ellen, got a question for you, Bene during all
these nine one one calls, I don't hear a peep
from the doorman, The doorman that the fiance says came
(30:09):
up with him to watch him as a witness. I guess,
break down the door. Why am I not hearing the
doorman at all? On the nine one one calls if
he was standing right there at the door like the fiance.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
Said, because he swears and said so you know in
a deposition that he was not there, that he never
left his post. The doorman swears unwaveringly and said so
in a deposition that he was not at that door,
(30:46):
that he was asked by Sam Goldberg to accompany him
there but did not, that he could not leave his
post and he was not there period.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Bennet, you spoke with the dorman, Yes, what did he
tell you happened the night Allen was murdered.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
He said that Sam Goldberg asked him to accompany him
to the apartment, and that he said he could not
leave his post.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
He said that video.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Shows that he did not leave his post, He was
not there, and.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
He said anything.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
That that is an out and out lie. That never happened.
Anyone who says he did that is lying.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Bene Hour, How did this whole thing start with dorman?
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Sam Goldberg went to him, explained that he was having
trouble getting into the apartment where his fiancee was. He
couldn't get in. He asked the doorman to go with
him to accompany him to the apartment, and the doorman said,
I absolutely cannot leave my post and did not go
(31:55):
with Sam. He swears and said in the deposition that
he did not leave his positions, his posts, and did
not accompany Sam Goldberg to the door. That he was
not there, He was not standing there when the call
was made to nine to one one, that he did
not go with him. He did not witness anything that
happened there personally.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
So there were no witnesses to the fiance breaking down
the door, and the dorman did not go up as
a witness. Correct.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
And he swears to that absolutely and says anybody who
says otherwise is lying, and that there is no video evidence.
Speaker 7 (32:37):
Of it, that he was not there.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
So the video bears out what the dorman is saying.
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace to Judge Pat Dugan seventeen
years on the bench, former Army Captain Judge Dugan, why
won't the District Attorney's office hand over Ellen's file to
(33:10):
her parents?
Speaker 6 (33:13):
So what I really don't understand is that mister Krasner
actually represented there the Greenberg's in the death of Ellen
before he was the District Attorney, So he had a
personal file involved in this case before he was the DA.
And according to Josh and Sandy, they've asked mister Krasner
(33:35):
for that file back, and for whatever reason, he's not
given back that file. Now, there might be a few
things in there that Krasner wants to keep, you know,
deep thoughts and all that, but most of that should
be turned over to the client. So I don't understand
why that personal file for for Ellen's parents have not
(33:58):
been turned over to them. I believe belongs to them.
Speaker 8 (34:01):
The police changed their theory on homicide because they could
not find defensive wounds. So let's start there. Ellen's wrists
were both badly bruised, like she was being restrained. Number two,
there were wounds to her neck consistent with strangulation. Number three,
(34:26):
the two wounds that were in Ellen's back of her
neck and in her chest. The medical examiner of the
medical examiners before she was dismissed said that those were
post mortem. We've been looking at the knife wounds. We
should have looked at strangulation. I Patiki et cetera. Looking
at the layers of the muscle around the neck for bleeding.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
From Fox News Digital, figure out how could that be
ruled suicide? It seemingly never ends. I remember do you
(35:11):
been an hour? The elation we shared with Josh and
Sandy Greenberg when a new review was ordered a new
review of the evidence. I guess I should have seen
it coming when you don't know a horse, look at
his track record. But I genuinely thought that there would
(35:32):
be an impartial review and Ellen could finally get justice.
That did not happen. Why are we so naive it?
Speaker 4 (35:43):
There's not a better word than stunning and outrageous for
all of this.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
And I have heard.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
I have listened to that nine to one one recording
no fewer than fifty times, and it still takes my
breath away. She stabbed herself bell on the knife. It's
beyond comprehension. And when it was announced that this would
be reopened, people were thrilled. And I cannot tell you
(36:11):
the outpouring that I received after this news that it
was labeled a suicide. Again from people on Instagram via email,
getting called it's stunning, it's outrageous, it's unbelievable and devastating.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
It can't be real. Wouldn't you agree? John Lucy, journalistpenlive
dot com and the patient Newshresburg, PA, author of killed
the Story. Wouldn't you agree Lucy that the last thing Shapiro,
the governor of Pennsylvania, who was then the state attorney general,
(36:51):
the top colp of the state had been the district attorney.
The last thing he needs to see chries to wedge
his big toe back into the Oval office like he
did with Harris, that close, that close to the Oval offices. Man,
The last thing he needs is Ellen Greenberg rising up
from the dead to bite him in the neck. In
(37:14):
other words, a full on investigation of the DA staff
coercing the medical Lexander to change is ruling, and the
ag Shapiro rubber stamping that instead of doing anything about it.
That's like, you know, biting a snake bite to the neck.
Speaker 5 (37:38):
He doesn't want that, No, absolutely not. And he was
questioned right after the settlement that the Greensburg reached in February,
had a press conference that was called for another reason,
but a reporter there pressed him on the Greenberg case.
He doubled down on suicide before the new me doubled
(38:01):
down on suicide. And certainly any investigation that would show
otherwise would make Shapiro look bad because he had this
case as Attorney General of PA for four long years
and nothing happened. He claims there was a thorough investigation
and everything he turned up pointed to suicide as well,
(38:25):
and he's on record reiterating that as recently as earlier
this year. So certainly as this gains momentum, and as
you see, it's a political football now and play in
the Philly das race, so it could be an issue.
And I'm online all the time and on X and
(38:47):
it's all over the place, and a lot of fingers
are pointing at Shapiro.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
To Judge Pat Dugan, seventeen years on the bench, Army
captain for the Philadelphia District Attorney's position, it seems like
an unholy caval. I mean, I'm on the outside looking in.
(39:12):
I'm just a trial lawyer. My specialty homicide. That's really
all I know how to do. And I can tell
you right now, Dugan, this is no suicide. So the
only way to get around that, which I know to
be true, is that for some reason, they don't want
(39:36):
this case reopened. So you are going to be up
against it. Everyone will be against you when you try
to reopen his case if you get that far.
Speaker 6 (39:46):
So, Nancy, I guess I'm a unicorn. I swore the
oath as a soldier and as a judge to hold
up honor and justice I am not worried about politics.
I'm running for office, but I really don't care about
the Democrats the Republicans, I really don't care. I care
(40:06):
about the victims and the rule of law. I've been
a public servant almost my entire life, and that both
does not have an end date on it. So I
honestly don't care where the pressure comes from. Wherever the
evidence leads me to is where I will go with
that evidence, particularly pertaining to the death of someone.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Reminder, no one has been charged or named as a
person of interest in the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Her
parents need our help. If you know or think you
know anything about this case, regardless of whether you think
it's inconsequential, doesn't matter. First of all, don't call the
(40:51):
Governor's office, don't call Shapiro, don't call the Attorney General.
So call the US Attorney appointed for the Eastern District
of Pennsylvania, which governs this jurisdiction of Philadelphia. We have
to bring in the FEDS, and I implore you to
(41:12):
please call the US Attorney in that jurisdiction. David Metcalf
number two one five eight six 't one eighty two hundred,
repeat two one five eight six' one eighty two one.
HUNDRED i never envisioned a day THAT i would, advise
(41:32):
don't call the, governor don't call the district. Attorney but
that day has. Come we stopped and remember An american,
Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nuna's San Bernardino County, Sheriff's, california
just twenty eight shot in the line of, duty leaving
(41:53):
behind his pregnant wife and their two years year old.
Daughter american Hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Nunez Nancy grace signing
off goodbye, friend
Host
Nancy Grace
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