October 8, 2025 • 56 mins
Iryna Zarutska, a Ukrainian refugee, came to the United States with her family to escape her war-torn country for a better life. Iryna took English classes, had a job and was making a productive life for herself, but all her aspirations were cut short by an unprovoked violent attack from a man with a criminal history.
Video shows Iryna getting on the train in Charlotte North Carolina, taking a seat and looking at her phone quietly. Video shows a passenger sitting directly behind Iryna, who we later came to know as Carlos Brown Jr. A close-up of Brown's hands can be seen opening and unfolding the knife in order to prepare to stand up to stab Iryna. Although Iryna's hat covers a lot of her face, the shock in her eyes, along with the terror she silently expressed during her final moments of life, bleeding out, surrounded by panic is heartbreaking to watch.
Video also shows Brown, in an orange hoodie, walking the aisles of the train with blood dripping on the floor. One passenger notices blood drops and avoids stepping in it, while another witness on the phone with 911 tells them a man just stabbed a woman for no reason and she needs help.
Moments after allegedly stabbing Iryna, Brown is captured on video non-chalantly walking the platform of the train station. On the train, Brown was wearing a hoodie, now he is wearing a black t-shirt, with the now bloody hoody, wrapped around his hands.
In reaction to the shocking and violent death of Iryna Zarutska, North Carolina Governor Josh Stein just signed "Iryna's Law" into effect increasing checks on criminals getting out on bail and prohibits cashless bail for some violent crimes and most repeat offender.
A Grand jury indicted Brown for murder of Iryna formally charging him with first-degree murder. Brown is being held without bond in the County jail, but an order was filed for him to be committed to Central Regional Hospital. Allegedly he has been diagnosed with schizophrenia and also has a lengthy rap sheet of criminal behavior.
Joining Nancy Grace today,
- Randy Kessler - Atlanta Trial Lawyer, Emory Law School Professor, Past Chair ABA Family Law Section, Author: "Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids and Your Future", www.KSFamilyLaw.com, Instagram: @rkessler23, Twitter: @GADivorce
- Caryn Stark - Forensic Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Andy Kahan - Director of Victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston, crime-stoppers.org
- Ron Bateman - Former homicide detective, former undercover narcotics agent, former sheriff. Author crime fiction series, “Silent Blue Tears”, and now soon to be released his newest book with Billy Joe Nichols, “opposing sides, memoirs of a drug dealer and a detective”, Website: Ronbatemanbooks.com , TikTok: @Ron.Bateman.655
- Dr. Thomas Coyne - Chief Medical Examiner, District 2 Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida; Forensic Pathologist, Toxicologist, Neuropathologist; X: @DrTMCoyne
- Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi", IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks
- Dave Mack - Crime Stories, Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Horror nine to one
one audio uh the train stabbing victim Irena reveals her
final desperate moments and what is described by witnesses as
(00:23):
a bloody and hopeless scene. Can anybody say death penalty?
I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
For being with us one shire a Mining.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Why did Irena have to die stabbed dead on public transportation?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
You said, a mail down for no re event at
any minute, the community still reeling.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Now, what makes this murder different from other murders. I'm
about to play you that newly released to audio, and
I've got to warn you up front, it's very, very disturbing.
Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot
of high profile clients. Randy Kessler, h Emory Law School professor,
(01:26):
former chair ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself,
Your Kids, in your Future. Kessler, this case is a
death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder,
according to the state, occurred on mass transit in a nutshell. Okay,
(01:49):
you're not delivering a speech the ABA. Why is that
an aggravating circumstance, Randy Kessler.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
That's all they need to surpass the threshold. And in
the law they're allowed to ask for the death penalty
because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor. Nobody
wants this guy around. They're going to get a good
shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the
avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public
transportation that authorizes the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Ass Okay, you do know what you just did right
put Kessler up. That is not working. I said, why
is it a death penalty because it's on mass transit?
And you say, like three times, it's death penalty because
it's on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just
regurgitated my question. But you did it beautifully. And now
I see why you win so many cases and snow
(02:36):
appellate court judges. I hope they're not watching right now
for your sake. Mass transit killings are dp death penalty
because much like a titular murder where a governor or
a senator or a president a judge is killed, it's
not just the individual, it's what they represent. That's why
(03:00):
that or police officer, that's why those are death penalty cases.
This is a am I actually quean ang with myself Castler.
This is a death penalty case mass transit because it's
what it represents, mass transmit government. It's going to get
on a bus or a train. If this guy's walking
(03:21):
free with a bloody knife, well that's the reason.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
For the death penalty.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
You want to find the case is where a death
penalty is really going to have a chilling effect.
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Hopefully it's going to scare other people.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
But the problem is Nancy, nobody's going to not kill
somebody because they might get death instead of life in prison.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
To me, it should be death penalty because we jury
wants it.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Really because I don't want old Sparky, I don't want
the needle and now the firing squad. Well, long story short,
that is why this is a death penalty case. Because
Arenna was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm
of the government, and there's a renner right now, and
(03:59):
because calls it creates chaos when citizens are afraid to
step on a bus. Kay us. That is why this
is a death penalty case. But I want to get back.
This is something that Kessler loves and hates when a
nine to one one audio is played in front of
(04:23):
a jury, Why do you hate that so much? Kessler?
Because I love it and they say it.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Picture's worth a thousand words and audio is worth ten
thousand words. There's no way to unring that bill period.
Jury hears that, that equals conviction.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Let's take a listen and see if he's righter.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
One police firemed.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
You said a mail stoutsand the one for no reason
did a need.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Greater Medican County Fire? What is the address for the emergency?
Speaker 5 (04:59):
What is this?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah? Kessler, you're right, this man calling nine one one
what he observed makes a grown man cry. He's crying, Kessler,
How do you think the jury's going to react to that?
Speaker 4 (05:20):
He is the jury. The jury sees themselves in him.
That's the that's the whole point of the audio. You
can sympathize, empathize, whatever the word is. You see yourself
and you don't ever want to be in his position.
You don't ever want to witness that. You don't even
want to experience it, and you don't want to love
when to experience it, and you feel it, it's emotionally draining.
It hits you right here, that's that's a conviction. That
(05:41):
audio equals conviction.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
To me, I want to hear that one. I'm going
to go to the next, the next nine on one,
but I want to hear that one more time. We're
hearing a grown man witness breaking down in tears over
what just happened to Irena. Listen, carlon nine.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
One one police triremited.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
He said a Mailstown was the one for no reason?
Speaker 5 (06:08):
Did any.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Greater Medican County fire? What is the address of the emergency?
Speaker 6 (06:19):
What is this?
Speaker 7 (06:21):
We'll train stay.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
With me a renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant.
It's Karen Stark at Karenstark dot com. Karen, thank you
for being with us. The man is in tears. The
man is crying, and he says I was standing right
beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the rest
of his life. Without a doubt.
Speaker 8 (06:49):
Nancy got trauma, terrible trauma, because just imagine I want
everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going
wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being slept
for no reason.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
No stars. Look, Karen, Karen Stark, do you see the video?
The guy is walking around here. He is, he's about
to stand up. He's fumbling in his pocket for his knife.
Plenty of time to form intent. You see what's on
the do you see what's on the floor. He's wandering
around with a knife, dripping with blood. I guess the
(07:28):
nine on one callar is traumatized, Karen Stark, without a doubt.
Speaker 8 (07:34):
Absolutely, Nancy.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
How could you not be?
Speaker 8 (07:37):
I think everyone who witnessed that would be traumatized. How
many people see something like that instantly riding on a train?
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Hopefully none. Guys, we have just obtained the newly released
nine to one one calls.
Speaker 9 (07:53):
Listen right now on the ground with a lot of blood,
and everybody's singing that you got And I don't know
if anybody.
Speaker 10 (08:01):
People are freaking out.
Speaker 7 (08:03):
I want to do some more information.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, she's on the train.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
She's on the train.
Speaker 9 (08:12):
She's on the ground right now. There's people around her
right now. I think they're holding pressure. On this site.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
There's a lot of luck joining us doctor Thomas Coin,
chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida,
and never like a business there pathologists to psychologists and neuropathologists.
It goes on and on, doctor Coin, thank you for
being with us. What what what are they trying? Medic
(08:39):
is trying to explain what's happening? What's happening?
Speaker 10 (08:43):
Sure?
Speaker 11 (08:43):
So, I mean from watching the horrible video, you can
see that the stab woom was likely to the next
just around the collarbone area, and in that area you have.
Speaker 10 (08:53):
Several major arteries. If the blade is long enough, you could.
Speaker 11 (08:56):
Certainly have cut the aorta or some of the branches
of or including the carotid artery. Those vessels carry blood
about a half a leader to three quarters of a
leader per minute, so if you can imagine, if that
vesseyl is cut, you can bleed out probably half of
your total blood volume in less than about a two
minute period. So what they're trying to do is put
(09:18):
pressure on that area, or at least the hopes they're
trying to put pressure on that area to stop the bleeding.
But very hard to put pressure on that area because
it's your neck the collarbones in the way, so it's
hard to actually stop the blood from splurting out. It's
a most times these wounds are fatal. It's almost impossible
to get this person to the hospital in time.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You said, you can lose half your blood in less
than two minutes.
Speaker 11 (09:44):
Yes, because blood flow here. These vessels carry blood at
high volume and fast rate, and so when you cut
that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the
heart beats, blood will spurret out. And yes, you could
lose you know, a couple of liters of blolood within
a couple of minute.
Speaker 10 (10:01):
Windows small, a very small window of time.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Guys, I want to hear the tone that the medic
has in the nine to one one call. Listen to
the medic.
Speaker 9 (10:12):
There're just a lady right now on the ground with
a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed.
And I don't know if anybody's called that one.
Speaker 10 (10:19):
People are just freaking out.
Speaker 7 (10:21):
I want to do some more information.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, she's on the train.
Speaker 9 (10:28):
She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.
There's people around her right now. I think they're holding
pressure on this website. There's a lot of blood.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
In Doctor Thomas Coin, Uh, you're our only medical doctor today.
I hear resignation. I hear resignation. The medic's not going hurry, hurry, Harry,
get here for the hurry hurry, it's like she's on
the ground, she's she's a lot of blood. They know,
don't they, Doctor Coin Have you ever felt that when
(10:59):
you're trying your best to save a patient and you
know there's just nothing you can do, but you're trying anyway.
Speaker 11 (11:06):
During my earlier early years of training, yeah, and especially
in the trauma centers of the hospital where you have
you know the injury is most likely fatal, but you're
doing everything you can just to keep that patient alive.
And when you have an injury like this and you've
lost so much blood, it's almost impossible to.
Speaker 10 (11:23):
Get in there and repair it in time to save
the patient. It's just it's a horrible experience.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I know that all of the newly released nine on
one audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with
the medic made me the most upset, because you know,
when you're in a crisis situation, a lot of people,
including me, just power through it and it's only after
(11:52):
it's over that you think, oh, my stars, I nearly X,
or she nearly X was hit by car or fell
off the tree, or it's after it's over that you
have a sigh of relief. But here I hear the
resignation in the medic's voice.
Speaker 9 (12:16):
Listen, lady right now on the ground with a lot
of blood, and everybody's bringing that she got stabbed. And
I don't know if anybody called that on one.
Speaker 10 (12:24):
People are just freaking out. I want to information.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, she's on the train.
Speaker 9 (12:33):
She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.
There's people around her right now. I think they're holding
pressure on this.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
There's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Blood, Karen start. That was the most upsetting part of
all the nine one one. We're about to play.
Speaker 8 (12:49):
Well because you hear it in her voice when she sighs, Nancy.
But I also want to point out and watching that
video that Dwayne is suffering. It's not that he stabs
her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can
very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain
and the fact that she's suffering. Hold in her mouth
(13:11):
before she bawls down and ultimately done.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
You're right, Karen, she's looking down. She's looking down. She
looked down at her stab You're right, Karen, she's just oh,
she's dying right in front of us. Here's more of.
Speaker 9 (13:34):
The nine on one calls the person who a little no,
I did not. We were on a different train park
down the road line and this is the very cloud
train car.
Speaker 10 (13:46):
I think the person in the I believe.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Confident that she got it.
Speaker 12 (14:00):
I'm not.
Speaker 9 (14:01):
There's a lot of people around her that they're all
saying the pupils are blown out and.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
There's no back to Dodger Thomas Coin two things. What
does that mean, stabbed in the carotid and the pupils
are blown out. Whoever this is seems to have medical training.
What does that mean?
Speaker 7 (14:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 11 (14:21):
Sure, So the carotid artery is that is the main
artery that that supplies blood to our brain. So it
travels within our neck along the lateral sides of our neck.
It's where like you would feel your pulse if you
put your fingers on your neck. That that's the carotid artery.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Uh.
Speaker 11 (14:36):
And it's one of the arteries that this certainly could
have cut in that area of her neck and it
will pump a high volume of blood out of the
body if cut. The pupils being blown just likely indicates
that she's lost normal neurologic function. I mean, as you
can imagine, if those arteries are cut, the blood supply
to her brain has been severed, and so within probably
(14:58):
less than a minute's time, her brain's not ating the
oxygen or blood flow it needs, and therefore, you know,
her brain's not being responsive. So our pupils are blown.
Her her cranial nerves and her brain stem are not
working like they should, and those just simply really speak
to her her dire situation.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Randy,
I know you're looking at the video right now. You
do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his
bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can
(15:37):
consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt.
The guys getting rid of his bloody clothes before he
steps off the train, that indicates he knows there'll be
a problem if it goes out on that platform covered
in blood.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Right, and personally, this probably goes more to the sentencing right.
Normal cases, at flight, if you're leaving a scene, you're
trying to get away. You're trying to escape, you're trying
to hide. That shows you did something wrong. You're trying
to get away. In this case, we know he didn't.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
We've got him generates E double L n oh. I
spelled it out for you. That can be used as evidence.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
Of guilt, of course, But what I'm telling.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
You, generations it was actually a jury charge that the
generally give the jury. Somehow that defense bar got rid
of that, but the jury can consider that is evidence
of guilt. We're trying to get his bloody shirt. That's
not sentencing.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
No, but you don't. You're right, Nancy, but you don't
leave with that. You don't leave with Look, he's covering
it up.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
When you got a.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Video of him actually stabbing her, you don't need to
start with, Hey, he was trying to cover it up.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
You got him dead to rights on the conviction.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
That's going to go further to wasn't mentally insane, He
knew that what he did was wrong. Takes away the
insanity defense, takes away any excuse for why he did
this other than.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
You drinking what I mean, what you drinking smoking? I
was gonna leave with guilty conscience. I leave with that
video and the nine one one calls. That's the state's
strongest evidence. I would go with the video that I'm
on calls, and then the witnesses, every single person sitting
(17:19):
in that tren car, even though they didn't help, which
they're going to get cross examined on. Yes, that's then
I bring on doctor Thomas Coin, and then I would
bring on Ron Bateman, and then I would bring on
Andy Kahn, and then I would bring on Susan Hendrick,
just like that. But evidence of guilty conscience that's the
last thing I bring on. But you darn right, I'll
(17:40):
bring it on.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Sure it is piling on, and it's icing on the cake.
It's extra, But really you don't need it. That's why
I think it goes more towards sentencing, because is there
a question that there's any reason why this guy should
be given any breaks. No, he knew what he did
was wrong. That's what that does for me. It doesn't help.
You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner
or later it's gonna be over kill. You got him
dead's rights, he's guilty of the crime. Now what do
(18:03):
we do about it?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
To death?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Because he knew he can't help himself. I can't, Kessler.
I love it when defense attorney starts saying it's overkill.
Stop you're piling on isn't it true? The state has
one swing at the ball. If there's an eng not guilty,
your technical legal phrase, screwed. You have one chance. Why
(18:29):
not put on all your evidence. When a defensive attorney
starts squealing and whining, overkill, piling on, that's when I
really dig in.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
You can use it, you can add it. But again,
it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act,
the actual crime. Sometimes you don't have the photographic or
the videographic evidence of the killing and the murder of
the crime, so that's more important. In this case, I'm
just saying it's much less important than actually what happened.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
What happened is terrible, it's on video. He's done, he's convicted.
That is. It is overkill. It is extra sure you
use it, Nancy, throw it in there.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
But I would say to the jury, we're gonna show
you this, but you don't really even need it because
you've already got enough to convict him.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
But just in case there was any.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Doubt, you're really not helping the defense right now. You
know that, right You're really not a helper for the defense.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
I'm just trying to explain it for the audience.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I've got something for you, Kessler. All right, you ready,
I don't know more nine to one one. Let's take
a listen to the newly released audio man I play.
Speaker 7 (19:33):
The girl might be there, man guy, there's no and
the guy over here on the round, Yeah, he's on
all the platform either he's a black male. You have
a dreadlog if you got a hand wrapped up in
a red ejected a black teacher because the.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Player was hanging over team not anymore, he doesn't. Let's
see that video of him changing clothes. Crime stories with me.
That's great to Susan Henry's joining US investigative journalist, author
of Down the Hill, My descend into the double murder
(20:10):
in Delphi. Susan, the nine woman caller another one of them.
You know a lot of the people on the train,
which totally is totally reprehensible. They don't even try to
help her. They start videoing her dying. What a bunch
(20:31):
of googles. However, yeah, go on a video that I
guess he posted it. Long story short, Several people did
call nine one one, and this last call we played
describes the defendant. He was standing on the ramp. Now
he's on another platform. Dreadlocks. He's got his hand wrapped
(20:52):
in a red jacket because he cut his hand, a
black T shirt. He's got a Blue Jays, black T shirt,
hand wrapped up, dreads. We've got him on video changing
clothes and there he goes. Guys, this is newly released video,
(21:15):
and there he goes, walking off like nothing happened. Says
in Hendrix. What's happening in the video right here that
we're showing.
Speaker 13 (21:24):
We're seeing the police move in on this guy and
make the arrest.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
Nancy.
Speaker 13 (21:29):
It's so disturbing. I watched that entire video this morning.
She was stepped quickly three times in the neck, and
you mentioned it earlier. That look of horror she's looking down,
probably is realizing what is happening to her. She's dying
before very eyes. What you're looking at now is the
police move in and that last nine one one call, Nancy.
You hear him say no police presence?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Where is everyone?
Speaker 13 (21:51):
He's panicked too, and I believe she falls over and
dies before her very eyes on that video.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
That is huge.
Speaker 13 (21:58):
That of course is what the play in pork. But
you're looking at the arrest the video we just saw.
Speaker 7 (22:03):
I think I'm here man, I pay. The girl might
be there man, the pied person, the guy over there's
no point represent and the guy that he's just standing
over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the other platform.
He's a black male dread loss. He got his hand
wrapped up in a red jacket, a black tea shirt
because the players like hanging off attaining. He got dread logs.
He got on blue jams, the black tea shirt and
(22:24):
the hands wrapped up. He got laudera heman anywhere or no.
He got a black teacher on the hoodies rapper entertaining.
Speaker 9 (22:36):
Okay, see lady right now on the ground and a
lot of the vest and everybody breaking that he got stuff.
Speaker 11 (22:41):
That's when he got up and he subsequently stabbed her
three times.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
He's on the ground right now.
Speaker 9 (22:47):
There's people around there and the pressure off.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
There's a lot of luck.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder. And whether you
agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like
him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He was murdered.
Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof
(23:14):
and took off and tried to blend in and he
did blend him with all the other students his age.
Same thing here. I want you to take a look
as we're playing that nine to one one call one
of them at the defendant just mosying off. Okay, listen,
I think I'm here man, I think the girl might
(23:35):
be there.
Speaker 7 (23:36):
Man, the piot person, the guy over there's no point, Represident,
and the guy that he is standing over here on
the round. Yeah, he was on the other platform either.
He's a black male dread loss. He got his hand
wrapped up in a red jacket, a black teacher because
the players.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Like hanging off the team.
Speaker 7 (23:51):
He got dread lovee. He got on a blue dreams,
the black teacher and the tams wrapped up. He got
laudary woman anywhere or is he no? He got a
boy feature home.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, and what do I want you to look at.
Let's see the video please of him getting off the
train and just calmly walking away, much as Tyler Robinson did.
Police are swarming the area. He's just like walking away.
Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from
the scene. I'm totally chill. Check it out, just wandering
(24:31):
along until the nine one one calls that described what
he was wearing nail him. He's just blending in, Kessler.
He does not want to bring attention to himself by running.
His hand is dripping with blood. Is he in a
hurry to get to the dock in a box? No,
because he doesn't want police to see him running.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Right, And the two explanations, right, One is he's so
clever that he's just trying to.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Blend in and that's how clever he is.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Or he's got some mental issues and he's mentally insane
and he doesn't even realize that what he did was wrong.
And certainly in this case, that's got a good good
chance of success.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
Right, This guy is absolutely off the deep end.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
You see somebody like that, you immediately jump to why
would you do something like that? You've got to have
something wrong with you. It's got to go right to
a metal insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise you're
thinking this a normal guy who planned that kind of murder,
plan to just walk casually. He didn't plan this. He
didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't
know where he was. You heard later, Right, he's got
voices going on in his head. He's got some mental issues.
(25:32):
That's why he was walking around as if he did
nothing because he mentally.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah, he's got fourteen arrest and just got out of
jail in January and immediately did this. You know what,
everybody there he is, there's Kessler. There is the truth.
Kessler coming up with what some would say is a
brilliant argument that he walked up because he didn't know
(25:56):
he did anything wrong. You use what you got that
he didn't plan the incident, Randy Kessler. Under the law,
isn't it true that intent can be formed in the
blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment,
As my old judge, juge Luthor Alberson would say, isn't
(26:19):
that true? Premeditation does not require a long drawn out plan,
such as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months.
Isn't that true?
Speaker 5 (26:28):
It is true?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
And you might have missed another point, which is why
did he have a knife on him in the first place?
That probably helps the intent or planet, but the truth matters.
Why would he form intent to hurt this person? There's
no interaction. You're talking about passion murder where you see
your wife cheating with somebody else, or you see something
that disturbs you and throws you into your reg's his
wife cheating.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
That's my point.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
There's nothing that triggered this premeditation. You talk about forming
you know the intent because you see something. There was
nothing that happened to make him form the intent.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
It's you've never had a criminal that did the day
just because they felt like it. They had an itch
and they scratched it, And we always say why, Why? Why? Why?
Ask why? State doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't
have to be why. All I have to know is
who did it? Did they have intent? And am I
(27:20):
in the right jurisdiction? That's what I need to know.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Right And the defense will come up with the why.
The why is because he's mentally insane, Stock hard Stock.
That's the only explanation that's going to get him any
possibility of a defense.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
And very quickly if that's possible. Randy Kessler, you're used
to making long and eloquent arguments to jurys and appellate judges,
But we just agreed that intent can be formed in
literally the blink of an eye. But you're saying he's
(27:56):
clearly melely insane, This is a litmus tap a yes no.
Isn't it true that the rule of insanity, the insanity
test is the old McNaughton rule, brought over to the
US from Great Britain. And it's one simple question. Did
the suspect know right from wrong at the time of
(28:18):
the incident. I don't care what he says he heard
voices last week or tomorrow. Did he know what he
did at the time was wrong? Isn't that the old
McNaughton test.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
That's the old MacNaughton test.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
And I think it's it's very applicable here because when
at the time he did that, clearly, it's going to
be easy to argue he did not know that what
he was doing was wrong. He was acting under some impulse,
some mental diagnosis, some alternate personalities, something made him do that.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
Clearly, did you just.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Pull that out of your.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
Out of my way school business?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
The bottom line is he did this, and did he
know right for wrong at the moment he did it?
And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like
that must not have known what they were doing. Why
else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's
not somebody he knew it's not somebody else.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Why why does it matter?
Speaker 5 (29:15):
That's what you have.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
Moments after allegedly stabbing Irena Brown captured on video nonchalantly
walking the platform of the train station, Police with weapons
drawn and up, surround the suspected killer, taking him to
the ground and taking him into custody. On the train,
Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing
a black T shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around
(29:37):
his hands.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
And here he comes, just walking along, cavalierly, calmly, don't
look at me, nothing to see. Oops. I guess they
got my description. Joining me and All Star panel to
makes sense of what we know right now. Straight out
to Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, undercover narc former sheriff,
(30:02):
and author of a crime fiction series, Silent Blue Tears,
his new book coming out next week. Question to you,
Ron Bateman, when you know when you see the police
closing in, very often if ennits do not run, they
try to blend in, like Tyler Robinson did after he
(30:24):
allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the top
of that roof and then he didn't run. He walked
with Grandpa's long gun and then hit it. See what
I mean. That's just an example I'm giving you that
everyone is familiar with.
Speaker 12 (30:44):
Yeah, and it really goes to speak to his intent.
We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes.
And you'll see him if you've played a video back,
you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding
blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He
had to think about that, and then I believe when
he was stabbing the victim, I believe it's not a
lock blade. It actually closed and cut his finger and
(31:07):
that's why all the blood is dripping out on the
floor of the tree. But then the further show is intent.
He has the wherewithal. Remember we're talking about a guy
who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap.
He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity.
He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in
the hoodie, He tries to conceal his identity. He tries
(31:29):
to blend in and walk among the patrons. Let's not
even talk about all the people on the train that
didn't do a thing. That's another topic.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Not a dam in saying not a thing. In fact,
some of them in just not doing anything to help Arianna.
They actually started videoing her as she's dying. Okay, I'm
glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman about
the folding knife. Unlike the fixed blade knife used by
Brian Koberger to butcher four in a sent Idaho students,
(32:02):
this is a folding blade used in the murder of
Arena to Randy Kessler. Uh, oh, where's Kessler? Don't see him?
Let's see him. Kessler, go ahead and get your kleenex.
Because many people would argue one two seconds don't matter
what they do under the law. The time it takes,
(32:25):
and you can see it on video, him fidgeting around,
digging in his pockets to get the knife. Then he
unfolds the knife and positions it. That buys me about
five more seconds to form intent. Way when Kessler, yeah, well, I.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Don't know what you're going to do, and I don't
know what you want me to do with that. He
opened the knife and he did something with it. But
did he know what he was doing, did he know
that he was actually did he think it was him?
Speaker 5 (32:48):
His argument is going to be some other personality to
go over.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Think it was him?
Speaker 5 (32:52):
Wait what Yes, listen to the videos, Listen to the argument.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
I think it was due.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
He did not think it was himself. He thought of
somebody else in his somebody else making him do this.
He was obviously mentally disturbed, heating form the content. Something
in his brain went wrong and made him do that.
That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have
to use.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
I don't know what else he has.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
In the last hours, newly obtained nine to one one
audio and video. Now, this is video from the public
transport train. There's plenty of video circulating out there because
many of the train writers the patrons, instead of trying
to help Arena, started videoing her as she died. Let's
(33:34):
see thirty eight showing Arena getting onto the train and
taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked two jobs,
new to the US, seeking a better life according to
her family and God bless her soul. Look who is
(33:56):
sitting behind her, and he's staring at her right now
like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on,
looks around and takes a seat fortuitously in front of
the defendant. Let's move to thirty nine. I want you
to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is
(34:19):
what we call time to form intent. Fidgeting with the knife,
and we're stopping it right there. We don't need to
see the next frame. I'll see it again time right
there under the law to form intent. She comes and
sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like
a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it,
(34:43):
unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move
to forty. This video showing a close up of the
defendant's hands. That's Arena's hat. Look if that's not intent,
that is intent. What do you have to say to that?
(35:06):
Keep on the video, Kessler, look at that. I'm totally
going to slow mow that for the jury.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Right.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
You can tell me all day long that it's not
just about sensing. You're going to get a conviction, but
what made him do that? You say, the why doesn't matter.
Jury's always want to know why. And you know what,
if there's a mental insanity defense, the why is going
to matter, and that's going to be the only thing
he has if he goes to trial. To argue is
that he was out of his mind, he did not
know what he was doing, he was been controlled, possessed,
(35:36):
whatever it is, because you're right. Otherwise you've got the intent,
the you've got the conviction.
Speaker 5 (35:43):
If he doesn't use him at much.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Sure, if he was quote possessed all the other fourteen times,
maybe that he committed a crime, some of them violent.
This is not age progression, people, This is just a
few of his mini arrests. I say, Kessler, because I
don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're putting up. Kessler,
(36:06):
did you actually just say maybe he was possessed. You're
going to bring dem on expirits in as a defense.
I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I
heard it. I can play it back.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
You said, using a lay person termed.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
It's you know, you want to use psychological term schizophrenic.
Somebody he thought that he was possessed. He thought that
somebody else was in his body, some sort of government
device was in his body. He thought something else was
going on. He is not owning this act. He did
not say I don't know why I did this. He
was saying, look, you know, I don't know what happened.
But they need to scan me, they need to investigate me,
(36:38):
They need to figure this out. Something was going on
in his brain, and we don't understand brains yet far
enough to understand why this happened.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
But clearly he did not say I did it and.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
I'm sorry or I can't figure out why I did it.
He doesn't seem to have any recollection, so it's a
mental health defense.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
It's clearly recollection. I can tell you this is the
deathnitel for the defense when a JD starts talking like
an MD. I just heard you trying to describe the
human brain. Good luck with that. I know my limitations.
I am not Did you hear me talking to coin?
I know that. I don't know, but I love you
(37:16):
theorizing on his brain function. I want to go to
a special guest joining us any Con. He is director
of Victim Services and Advocacy Crime Stoppers out of Houston.
Longtime friend and colleague who first introduced me to murder
rebelia people making money off murder? Any Con. How many
(37:38):
times have you heard a defense attorney much like Randy
Kessler joining us tonight state he didn't know what he
was doing. Well, you know what. He knew what train
stop to get off, didn't he He needed to take
off that bloody shirt and wrap it around his hand,
not just the hurt hand that he sliced himself, but
to change clothes. He got off that train at the
(38:01):
very next stop and tried to walk away hit it. Andy.
Speaker 7 (38:06):
You know the.
Speaker 5 (38:07):
Video speaks volumes.
Speaker 14 (38:08):
I mean, there's no way off answer, Butts, he knew
exactly what he was doing.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
He tried to cover up.
Speaker 14 (38:13):
But the real story to me is you had a
young lady who fled war torn, war torn Ukraine only
to end up being murdered in the United States. Now
we look at what happened with the defendant. This defendant's
got a rap sheet. Ye long fourteen arrest and in
and out of jail, in and out of prisons, in
(38:35):
and out of mental hospitals, and so forth.
Speaker 10 (38:38):
This is a.
Speaker 14 (38:39):
Total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure. This is a tragedy, yes,
but it was so utterly preventable. And my position again
is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into
our community to do what they do best, and that's
commit This is not just a North Carolina It's a
(39:03):
national issue. In Houston We've documented over two hundred plus
people that have been murdered by defendants released on what's
called a personal recognance bond, which is what this defendant
was recently released on. That is about as disturbing as
it gets. And I'm hoping that this will ultimately open
(39:25):
up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all
over the country that the criminal justice reform movement has
led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural
disaster in this country's history.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace two Susan Hendricks joining US
investigative journalists. I want to follow up on what Andy
kan just said. This guy just got out of jail.
Why who let him out of jail? Exactly?
Speaker 13 (40:06):
And it was mentioned of a foreigm laws they're not
working fourteen. When you put up those mug shots, Nancy,
and that's not all of them, you think, how could
this guy have gotten out? What was he doing there
in the first place? The governor signing a law in
her name, Arena's law. But he even says, look, this
isn't enough. It's a step in the right direction, but
(40:27):
it's clearly not enough, meaning it will take away some
of the power from the judges to make that decision
in letting someone who has priors out of prison.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about
as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name
is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
In September twenty twenty two, Brown arrested on assault on
a female an injury to property. April twenty twenty four,
Brown arrested for me using nine one one May twenty
twenty four, misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five,
misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five. Judge Teresa
Stokes release Brown the same day he was arrested on
a written promise to appear. Brown did not present himself
(41:15):
for evaluation. Three weeks later. He is alleged to have
killed Irena. If that order was followed, he would have
been evaluated weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in
his murdered charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity,
and Wiggins again ordered dB evaluated. Police have not identified
any motive or lengthy attack to mental illness in the
(41:36):
last hours.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Newly released nine to one one audio and video. Let's
take a look this video is showing the defendant calmly
waiting to exit the train. He knows exactly what he's doing,
making way for people, and look at everybody walking around
the blood. Yeah they didn't help her, but they don't
(41:58):
want to get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes.
He knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows
when the train door opens that this is his exit
and he's leaving. Oranda, by the way, is bleeding out
dead right now. To Randy Kessler joining us, this is
(42:20):
not only a state case, but a federal case as well.
Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed
that are death qualified. What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Because you want to make it appeal proof, right, lawyers
that are qualified to take on death penalty cases. Then
he cant after the fact say well, I had ineffective
assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to handle
a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Straightforward, easy is that the case will get reversed if
there is a conviction, if there is a death penalty sentence,
if the lawyers are not death qualified. In other words,
you have to sit on X number of death penalty cases,
either first chair or second chair. So you know what
(43:13):
you're doing. It's got to be a fair fight, now,
isn't a true? Susan Hendrix that he the suspect has
been sent for evaluation, mental evaluation to see if he
is competent to stand trial.
Speaker 13 (43:29):
Yes, absolutely he is and will be evaluated. I was
listening to a prison phone call between him and his
sister and he doesn't make any sense. I don't know
if that's because he is insane or he's acting like
he does have a problem.
Speaker 5 (43:45):
But I think they.
Speaker 13 (43:46):
Will, of course be brought into court and he will
be evaluated, and I think that that's the way the
defense will go. But how can you erase these fourteen
mugshots in all and the video there is just like
you said, Nancy planning this out, opening the knife and
doing it. He said to his sister in the jailhouse
call that he felt that they wanted him.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
To do it. He didn't do it, he was told
to do it.
Speaker 13 (44:10):
We'll see if that works.
Speaker 5 (44:11):
I doubt it.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
You know, Kessler, there's a big difference in evaluating someone
for incompetency and insanity. Explain and a nutshell. What is incompetency, Well, compecy, you.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Have to understand the proceedings.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
It's not fair you can't help the lawyer defend you
if you're incompetent to stand trial. If you don't understand
the proceedings. To get off the hook for murder, you
have to have been insane at the time that it
happened that the thing happened. In Competency is more a
question of ability to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings?
You need to be able to help in your own defense.
And if you're not able to help in your own defense,
(44:50):
then you don't have a trial until you are able
to assist in your own defense.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Nutshell, kel slar. Would you agree that competency is being
able to to assist your lawyers in your defense at
your trial? Competent you are competent to assist your defense attorneys? Yes, okay?
And insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at
the time of the incident. The time of arena is killing.
(45:16):
They are two very different things.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
Right, don't like to agree with you, but yes.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
So first, the lawyer is going to try to get
enroled incompetent. Why delay delay, delay, that's the first and
the last rule in the defense playbook. Why people forget
about it. Their memories fade, witnesses actually die, important witnesses
actually die or move, you can't find them, and the
(45:43):
inflammation surrounding the murder of an innocent young woman can
die down. How people forget about it. That's why the
defense wants a delay. Would you at least agree with that?
Speaker 4 (45:56):
Yes, And it's probably easier to find incompetent at the
time a trial than insanity at the time. How do
you get inside of his mind at that exact moment,
whereas right now they can interview him, Now we can
have a psychologists test him. Now, you know, it's easier
for a justice say I'm going to put off the
trial then do say, oh, we're going to let him
off the hook for murder because of insanity. So it's
an easier thing to argue for the defense council, and
(46:18):
you get a second bite at the apple. If you
lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at the
time of the murder.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Right, So if at some point, if he is rehabbed
and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then
when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity,
and there are a host of variations. There's guilty but
mentally ill, there's not guilty by reason of insanity. There's
guilty but insane, just as a whole variation of what
(46:50):
a jury can come back on. Just throw me a
few choices, Kessler.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter what
you call him, and it's state by state. Each state
calls different things. But you're giving the jury options. If
there are people on the jury that say there's something
wrong with him. I can't find that he's a normal
person that just intentionally went after this person and did it.
I want to give him some minor little break because
he's got mental issues. They all to do use one
of those other excuses to convict and say he had
(47:18):
mental issues. Mental you know, but you're right you named
three or four of them. They're called a whole bunch
of different things depending on which date you're in. But
there are other options besides murder one.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
What about Andy Kahn.
Speaker 14 (47:29):
You know, as much as you want to blame the offender,
and obviously he deserves a lot.
Speaker 5 (47:34):
Of blame, what happened to this young lady?
Speaker 14 (47:36):
I blame our criminal justice system even more. They kept
knowingly allowing him to re enter society time and time again,
only to see him reoffend time and time again. And
how on the heck do you justify giving someone are
you no bond? A cash no cash bond and say here,
(47:59):
you know in court that's insane to actually allow someone
with his rap sheet just to walk out of court
on the promise that you'll reappear again. This is what's
driving our system and why the public has just lost
faith because we keep seeing offenders like him that are
(48:20):
recycled all over the time, and they end up killing people.
This was a tragedy, but it was so utterly preventable
and it's a total systematic failure.
Speaker 10 (48:32):
And I know you'll agree.
Speaker 14 (48:33):
With me on this, Nancy, but I get sick and
tired of naming laws after dead people. And yet now
we have a new law named after Arena that hopefully
others won't end up with the same faith as she
has now become.
Speaker 15 (48:48):
Despite all of this past documented criminal history. When Brown
was arrested yet again in January of this past year,
a Democrat.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Judge who will I will add was.
Speaker 15 (48:57):
A supporter a strong supporter of form or Vice President
Kamala Harris released this insane criminal once again without requiring
him to pay any bail. He simply had to sign
a written promise to return for his court hearing. Think
about how crazy it is to ask a career criminal,
someone who by definition repeatedly breaks the law, to just
(49:20):
sign a written promise and come.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Back again another day. This is madness.
Speaker 15 (49:24):
This monster should have been locked up and Arena should
still be alive.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
From Fox Straight Out to Karen's Stark forensic psychologist renowned
TV radio trauma expert Karen way In.
Speaker 8 (49:39):
I have to tell you, Nancy, yes, this guy has
been diagnosed I've heard with schizophrenia, but I see intent.
He knew to have that knife. He fled after he
committed that crime. And when her sister said to him,
why did you do that? Why did you do that
to the citizen person? And he said she was reading
(50:02):
my mind, which tells me that he has a rationalization
that he actually, after the fact, was trying to explain
what he did, which means that he knows the difference,
He understands he did something, and he wants to come
up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent,
(50:23):
I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Ron Bateman joining me. Former homicide detective, former undercover narc
and author of a series Silent Blue Tears. You can
find it at Ronbatemanbooks dot com. Ron is, the investigators
here are, much like yourself, have their work cut out
for them. They don't have to prove just what happened.
(50:49):
They've got the right guy. Now the state, including investigators,
are going to have to prove he knew what he
was doing and that it was wrong. Ron, how do
you go about doing that?
Speaker 12 (51:02):
Well, you know, you got to ask the question, which
is really obvious. If he didn't know what what he
was doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat?
If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was
going on, what he did was right, he would have
stayed put. But we know we've already talked about it.
He did all those things. He tried to conceal his
identity and tried to burn into the crowd and blah
(51:22):
blah blah, try to cover his hand up and all that.
But I got to make one point that the community
is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear Nancy, but
I do what the hell is wrong with the media
by Keith repeatedly showing these this murder over and over again.
Thank god your staff didn't do it today. We saw
Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor
(51:44):
girl staff a thousand times. Are we so desensitized that
we have totally thrown away the victim's dignity and respect
that her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't
learn about it in private.
Speaker 5 (52:00):
They should have.
Speaker 12 (52:01):
This is really despicable that the media released this video.
Now you can release stills of the suspects so we
can find them. Good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department,
you know, I don't know if it's a PIA that
went out of Public Information Act request, but they released
it and they didn't give it any thought, and it
was just for a god darned sound bite. And that's
bull crap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just just
(52:25):
off the charts.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Andy con He's right.
Speaker 14 (52:29):
We are caring more about defendants rights than we are
about victims' rights, and we repeatedly see this with crime
scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims.
Speaker 5 (52:43):
That are murdered and she deserves better.
Speaker 14 (52:46):
But again I'm going to close with this. The defendant
fair share of the blame. But this is a total
systematic failure. It never should have happened. You cannot continue.
You to continue to recycle offenders over and over again
and expect a better outcome. She paid the ultimate price.
(53:10):
The only question is how many more are going to
pay the price under the guise of criminal justice reform
that has taking its toll on all our citizens throughout
the country. Enough is enough? This has to end.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Hey Nancy, Yeah, jump Han please.
Speaker 12 (53:25):
Yeah, what I want to say? You know, we're so
we were so hell bent on showing this video over
and over again. Are we going to show a firing squad, which,
by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day.
Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No,
that's we're not, because we just care about this little
cool SoundBite to get some attention, which is horrible, horrible
(53:48):
for the victims.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
And I assume you're referring to the moment that Arena
was actually stabbed, Doctor Coin, question to you. Many people
want to believe that Arena's death was instantaneous, that she
felt nothing. That one moment, she's looking at her phone.
In the next moment she's looking at angels. That's not
what happened, Doctor Coyne. She suffered No.
Speaker 11 (54:11):
I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious,
you know, within a minute or just less. But she
certainly would have felt that stab wound, and you could
see when she looked at her attacker. She certainly would
have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before
she passed out.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
And to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author, Susan what next.
Speaker 13 (54:40):
We owe Arena something. The United States owes her something.
I hope there's real change here. The embassy US embassy
in Ukraine working to get her body back there. Guess
what her mom said. No, she loved the United States.
That's why she came here. She's buried here. We owe
her something. I hope real change comes out of this.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
If you know or think you know anything about this case,
the case is being built by the state and the defense.
As we go to air tonight, please dial seven zero
four three three four sixteen hundred repeat seven zero four
three three four sixteen hundred and let me emphasize as
(55:24):
we go to air de Curlos. Brown is presumed innocent
unless and until the state overcomes that presumption with evidence
that proves this guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And no,
we do not want anyone that was legally insane at
the time of the incident to get the death penalty. However,
(55:47):
his actions belie that claim. We remember an American hero
Officer Ray Barontis child Chilipea, d California, killed in the
line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife in three children.
American hero Officer Ray Brantis. Nancy Grace signing off your
(56:11):
wife had
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Horror nine to one
one audio uh the train stabbing victim Irena reveals her
final desperate moments and what is described by witnesses as
(00:23):
a bloody and hopeless scene. Can anybody say death penalty?
I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
For being with us one shire a Mining.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Why did Irena have to die stabbed dead on public transportation?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
You said, a mail down for no re event at
any minute, the community still reeling.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Now, what makes this murder different from other murders. I'm
about to play you that newly released to audio, and
I've got to warn you up front, it's very, very disturbing.
Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot
of high profile clients. Randy Kessler, h Emory Law School professor,
(01:26):
former chair ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself,
Your Kids, in your Future. Kessler, this case is a
death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder,
according to the state, occurred on mass transit in a nutshell. Okay,
(01:49):
you're not delivering a speech the ABA. Why is that
an aggravating circumstance, Randy Kessler.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
That's all they need to surpass the threshold. And in
the law they're allowed to ask for the death penalty
because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor. Nobody
wants this guy around. They're going to get a good
shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the
avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public
transportation that authorizes the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Ass Okay, you do know what you just did right
put Kessler up. That is not working. I said, why
is it a death penalty because it's on mass transit?
And you say, like three times, it's death penalty because
it's on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just
regurgitated my question. But you did it beautifully. And now
I see why you win so many cases and snow
(02:36):
appellate court judges. I hope they're not watching right now
for your sake. Mass transit killings are dp death penalty
because much like a titular murder where a governor or
a senator or a president a judge is killed, it's
not just the individual, it's what they represent. That's why
(03:00):
that or police officer, that's why those are death penalty cases.
This is a am I actually quean ang with myself Castler.
This is a death penalty case mass transit because it's
what it represents, mass transmit government. It's going to get
on a bus or a train. If this guy's walking
(03:21):
free with a bloody knife, well that's the reason.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
For the death penalty.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
You want to find the case is where a death
penalty is really going to have a chilling effect.
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Hopefully it's going to scare other people.
Speaker 4 (03:30):
But the problem is Nancy, nobody's going to not kill
somebody because they might get death instead of life in prison.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
To me, it should be death penalty because we jury
wants it.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Really because I don't want old Sparky, I don't want
the needle and now the firing squad. Well, long story short,
that is why this is a death penalty case. Because
Arenna was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm
of the government, and there's a renner right now, and
(03:59):
because calls it creates chaos when citizens are afraid to
step on a bus. Kay us. That is why this
is a death penalty case. But I want to get back.
This is something that Kessler loves and hates when a
nine to one one audio is played in front of
(04:23):
a jury, Why do you hate that so much? Kessler?
Because I love it and they say it.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Picture's worth a thousand words and audio is worth ten
thousand words. There's no way to unring that bill period.
Jury hears that, that equals conviction.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Let's take a listen and see if he's righter.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
One police firemed.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
You said a mail stoutsand the one for no reason
did a need.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Greater Medican County Fire? What is the address for the emergency?
Speaker 5 (04:59):
What is this?
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah? Kessler, you're right, this man calling nine one one
what he observed makes a grown man cry. He's crying, Kessler,
How do you think the jury's going to react to that?
Speaker 4 (05:20):
He is the jury. The jury sees themselves in him.
That's the that's the whole point of the audio. You
can sympathize, empathize, whatever the word is. You see yourself
and you don't ever want to be in his position.
You don't ever want to witness that. You don't even
want to experience it, and you don't want to love
when to experience it, and you feel it, it's emotionally draining.
It hits you right here, that's that's a conviction. That
(05:41):
audio equals conviction.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
To me, I want to hear that one. I'm going
to go to the next, the next nine on one,
but I want to hear that one more time. We're
hearing a grown man witness breaking down in tears over
what just happened to Irena. Listen, carlon nine.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
One one police triremited.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
He said a Mailstown was the one for no reason?
Speaker 5 (06:08):
Did any.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Greater Medican County fire? What is the address of the emergency?
Speaker 6 (06:19):
What is this?
Speaker 7 (06:21):
We'll train stay.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
With me a renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant.
It's Karen Stark at Karenstark dot com. Karen, thank you
for being with us. The man is in tears. The
man is crying, and he says I was standing right
beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the rest
of his life. Without a doubt.
Speaker 8 (06:49):
Nancy got trauma, terrible trauma, because just imagine I want
everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going
wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being slept
for no reason.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
No stars. Look, Karen, Karen Stark, do you see the video?
The guy is walking around here. He is, he's about
to stand up. He's fumbling in his pocket for his knife.
Plenty of time to form intent. You see what's on
the do you see what's on the floor. He's wandering
around with a knife, dripping with blood. I guess the
(07:28):
nine on one callar is traumatized, Karen Stark, without a doubt.
Speaker 8 (07:34):
Absolutely, Nancy.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
How could you not be?
Speaker 8 (07:37):
I think everyone who witnessed that would be traumatized. How
many people see something like that instantly riding on a train?
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Hopefully none. Guys, we have just obtained the newly released
nine to one one calls.
Speaker 9 (07:53):
Listen right now on the ground with a lot of blood,
and everybody's singing that you got And I don't know
if anybody.
Speaker 10 (08:01):
People are freaking out.
Speaker 7 (08:03):
I want to do some more information.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, she's on the train.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
She's on the train.
Speaker 9 (08:12):
She's on the ground right now. There's people around her
right now. I think they're holding pressure. On this site.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
There's a lot of luck joining us doctor Thomas Coin,
chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida,
and never like a business there pathologists to psychologists and neuropathologists.
It goes on and on, doctor Coin, thank you for
being with us. What what what are they trying? Medic
(08:39):
is trying to explain what's happening? What's happening?
Speaker 10 (08:43):
Sure?
Speaker 11 (08:43):
So, I mean from watching the horrible video, you can
see that the stab woom was likely to the next
just around the collarbone area, and in that area you have.
Speaker 10 (08:53):
Several major arteries. If the blade is long enough, you could.
Speaker 11 (08:56):
Certainly have cut the aorta or some of the branches
of or including the carotid artery. Those vessels carry blood
about a half a leader to three quarters of a
leader per minute, so if you can imagine, if that
vesseyl is cut, you can bleed out probably half of
your total blood volume in less than about a two
minute period. So what they're trying to do is put
(09:18):
pressure on that area, or at least the hopes they're
trying to put pressure on that area to stop the bleeding.
But very hard to put pressure on that area because
it's your neck the collarbones in the way, so it's
hard to actually stop the blood from splurting out. It's
a most times these wounds are fatal. It's almost impossible
to get this person to the hospital in time.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You said, you can lose half your blood in less
than two minutes.
Speaker 11 (09:44):
Yes, because blood flow here. These vessels carry blood at
high volume and fast rate, and so when you cut
that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the
heart beats, blood will spurret out. And yes, you could
lose you know, a couple of liters of blolood within
a couple of minute.
Speaker 10 (10:01):
Windows small, a very small window of time.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Guys, I want to hear the tone that the medic
has in the nine to one one call. Listen to
the medic.
Speaker 9 (10:12):
There're just a lady right now on the ground with
a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed.
And I don't know if anybody's called that one.
Speaker 10 (10:19):
People are just freaking out.
Speaker 7 (10:21):
I want to do some more information.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah, she's on the train.
Speaker 9 (10:28):
She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.
There's people around her right now. I think they're holding
pressure on this website. There's a lot of blood.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
In Doctor Thomas Coin, Uh, you're our only medical doctor today.
I hear resignation. I hear resignation. The medic's not going hurry, hurry, Harry,
get here for the hurry hurry, it's like she's on
the ground, she's she's a lot of blood. They know,
don't they, Doctor Coin Have you ever felt that when
(10:59):
you're trying your best to save a patient and you
know there's just nothing you can do, but you're trying anyway.
Speaker 11 (11:06):
During my earlier early years of training, yeah, and especially
in the trauma centers of the hospital where you have
you know the injury is most likely fatal, but you're
doing everything you can just to keep that patient alive.
And when you have an injury like this and you've
lost so much blood, it's almost impossible to.
Speaker 10 (11:23):
Get in there and repair it in time to save
the patient. It's just it's a horrible experience.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
I know that all of the newly released nine on
one audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with
the medic made me the most upset, because you know,
when you're in a crisis situation, a lot of people,
including me, just power through it and it's only after
(11:52):
it's over that you think, oh, my stars, I nearly X,
or she nearly X was hit by car or fell
off the tree, or it's after it's over that you
have a sigh of relief. But here I hear the
resignation in the medic's voice.
Speaker 9 (12:16):
Listen, lady right now on the ground with a lot
of blood, and everybody's bringing that she got stabbed. And
I don't know if anybody called that on one.
Speaker 10 (12:24):
People are just freaking out. I want to information.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, she's on the train.
Speaker 9 (12:33):
She's on the train, she's on the ground right now.
There's people around her right now. I think they're holding
pressure on this.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
There's a lot of.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Blood, Karen start. That was the most upsetting part of
all the nine one one. We're about to play.
Speaker 8 (12:49):
Well because you hear it in her voice when she sighs, Nancy.
But I also want to point out and watching that
video that Dwayne is suffering. It's not that he stabs
her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can
very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain
and the fact that she's suffering. Hold in her mouth
(13:11):
before she bawls down and ultimately done.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
You're right, Karen, she's looking down. She's looking down. She
looked down at her stab You're right, Karen, she's just oh,
she's dying right in front of us. Here's more of.
Speaker 9 (13:34):
The nine on one calls the person who a little no,
I did not. We were on a different train park
down the road line and this is the very cloud
train car.
Speaker 10 (13:46):
I think the person in the I believe.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Confident that she got it.
Speaker 12 (14:00):
I'm not.
Speaker 9 (14:01):
There's a lot of people around her that they're all
saying the pupils are blown out and.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
There's no back to Dodger Thomas Coin two things. What
does that mean, stabbed in the carotid and the pupils
are blown out. Whoever this is seems to have medical training.
What does that mean?
Speaker 7 (14:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 11 (14:21):
Sure, So the carotid artery is that is the main
artery that that supplies blood to our brain. So it
travels within our neck along the lateral sides of our neck.
It's where like you would feel your pulse if you
put your fingers on your neck. That that's the carotid artery.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Uh.
Speaker 11 (14:36):
And it's one of the arteries that this certainly could
have cut in that area of her neck and it
will pump a high volume of blood out of the
body if cut. The pupils being blown just likely indicates
that she's lost normal neurologic function. I mean, as you
can imagine, if those arteries are cut, the blood supply
to her brain has been severed, and so within probably
(14:58):
less than a minute's time, her brain's not ating the
oxygen or blood flow it needs, and therefore, you know,
her brain's not being responsive. So our pupils are blown.
Her her cranial nerves and her brain stem are not
working like they should, and those just simply really speak
to her her dire situation.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Randy,
I know you're looking at the video right now. You
do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his
bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can
(15:37):
consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt.
The guys getting rid of his bloody clothes before he
steps off the train, that indicates he knows there'll be
a problem if it goes out on that platform covered
in blood.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Right, and personally, this probably goes more to the sentencing right.
Normal cases, at flight, if you're leaving a scene, you're
trying to get away. You're trying to escape, you're trying
to hide. That shows you did something wrong. You're trying
to get away. In this case, we know he didn't.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
We've got him generates E double L n oh. I
spelled it out for you. That can be used as evidence.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
Of guilt, of course, But what I'm telling.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
You, generations it was actually a jury charge that the
generally give the jury. Somehow that defense bar got rid
of that, but the jury can consider that is evidence
of guilt. We're trying to get his bloody shirt. That's
not sentencing.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
No, but you don't. You're right, Nancy, but you don't
leave with that. You don't leave with Look, he's covering
it up.
Speaker 5 (16:42):
When you got a.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Video of him actually stabbing her, you don't need to
start with, Hey, he was trying to cover it up.
Speaker 5 (16:47):
You got him dead to rights on the conviction.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
That's going to go further to wasn't mentally insane, He
knew that what he did was wrong. Takes away the
insanity defense, takes away any excuse for why he did
this other than.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
You drinking what I mean, what you drinking smoking? I
was gonna leave with guilty conscience. I leave with that
video and the nine one one calls. That's the state's
strongest evidence. I would go with the video that I'm
on calls, and then the witnesses, every single person sitting
(17:19):
in that tren car, even though they didn't help, which
they're going to get cross examined on. Yes, that's then
I bring on doctor Thomas Coin, and then I would
bring on Ron Bateman, and then I would bring on
Andy Kahn, and then I would bring on Susan Hendrick,
just like that. But evidence of guilty conscience that's the
last thing I bring on. But you darn right, I'll
(17:40):
bring it on.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Sure it is piling on, and it's icing on the cake.
It's extra, But really you don't need it. That's why
I think it goes more towards sentencing, because is there
a question that there's any reason why this guy should
be given any breaks. No, he knew what he did
was wrong. That's what that does for me. It doesn't help.
You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner
or later it's gonna be over kill. You got him
dead's rights, he's guilty of the crime. Now what do
(18:03):
we do about it?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
To death?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Because he knew he can't help himself. I can't, Kessler.
I love it when defense attorney starts saying it's overkill.
Stop you're piling on isn't it true? The state has
one swing at the ball. If there's an eng not guilty,
your technical legal phrase, screwed. You have one chance. Why
(18:29):
not put on all your evidence. When a defensive attorney
starts squealing and whining, overkill, piling on, that's when I
really dig in.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
You can use it, you can add it. But again,
it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act,
the actual crime. Sometimes you don't have the photographic or
the videographic evidence of the killing and the murder of
the crime, so that's more important. In this case, I'm
just saying it's much less important than actually what happened.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
What happened is terrible, it's on video. He's done, he's convicted.
That is. It is overkill. It is extra sure you
use it, Nancy, throw it in there.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
But I would say to the jury, we're gonna show
you this, but you don't really even need it because
you've already got enough to convict him.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
But just in case there was any.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Doubt, you're really not helping the defense right now. You
know that, right You're really not a helper for the defense.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
I'm just trying to explain it for the audience.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I've got something for you, Kessler. All right, you ready,
I don't know more nine to one one. Let's take
a listen to the newly released audio man I play.
Speaker 7 (19:33):
The girl might be there, man guy, there's no and
the guy over here on the round, Yeah, he's on
all the platform either he's a black male. You have
a dreadlog if you got a hand wrapped up in
a red ejected a black teacher because the.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Player was hanging over team not anymore, he doesn't. Let's
see that video of him changing clothes. Crime stories with me.
That's great to Susan Henry's joining US investigative journalist, author
of Down the Hill, My descend into the double murder
(20:10):
in Delphi. Susan, the nine woman caller another one of them.
You know a lot of the people on the train,
which totally is totally reprehensible. They don't even try to
help her. They start videoing her dying. What a bunch
(20:31):
of googles. However, yeah, go on a video that I
guess he posted it. Long story short, Several people did
call nine one one, and this last call we played
describes the defendant. He was standing on the ramp. Now
he's on another platform. Dreadlocks. He's got his hand wrapped
(20:52):
in a red jacket because he cut his hand, a
black T shirt. He's got a Blue Jays, black T shirt,
hand wrapped up, dreads. We've got him on video changing
clothes and there he goes. Guys, this is newly released video,
(21:15):
and there he goes, walking off like nothing happened. Says
in Hendrix. What's happening in the video right here that
we're showing.
Speaker 13 (21:24):
We're seeing the police move in on this guy and
make the arrest.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
Nancy.
Speaker 13 (21:29):
It's so disturbing. I watched that entire video this morning.
She was stepped quickly three times in the neck, and
you mentioned it earlier. That look of horror she's looking down,
probably is realizing what is happening to her. She's dying
before very eyes. What you're looking at now is the
police move in and that last nine one one call, Nancy.
You hear him say no police presence?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Where is everyone?
Speaker 13 (21:51):
He's panicked too, and I believe she falls over and
dies before her very eyes on that video.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
That is huge.
Speaker 13 (21:58):
That of course is what the play in pork. But
you're looking at the arrest the video we just saw.
Speaker 7 (22:03):
I think I'm here man, I pay. The girl might
be there man, the pied person, the guy over there's
no point represent and the guy that he's just standing
over here on the round. Yeah, he's on the other platform.
He's a black male dread loss. He got his hand
wrapped up in a red jacket, a black tea shirt
because the players like hanging off attaining. He got dread logs.
He got on blue jams, the black tea shirt and
(22:24):
the hands wrapped up. He got laudera heman anywhere or no.
He got a black teacher on the hoodies rapper entertaining.
Speaker 9 (22:36):
Okay, see lady right now on the ground and a
lot of the vest and everybody breaking that he got stuff.
Speaker 11 (22:41):
That's when he got up and he subsequently stabbed her
three times.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
He's on the ground right now.
Speaker 9 (22:47):
There's people around there and the pressure off.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
There's a lot of luck.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder. And whether you
agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like
him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He was murdered.
Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof
(23:14):
and took off and tried to blend in and he
did blend him with all the other students his age.
Same thing here. I want you to take a look
as we're playing that nine to one one call one
of them at the defendant just mosying off. Okay, listen,
I think I'm here man, I think the girl might
(23:35):
be there.
Speaker 7 (23:36):
Man, the piot person, the guy over there's no point, Represident,
and the guy that he is standing over here on
the round. Yeah, he was on the other platform either.
He's a black male dread loss. He got his hand
wrapped up in a red jacket, a black teacher because
the players.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Like hanging off the team.
Speaker 7 (23:51):
He got dread lovee. He got on a blue dreams,
the black teacher and the tams wrapped up. He got
laudary woman anywhere or is he no? He got a
boy feature home.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Okay, and what do I want you to look at.
Let's see the video please of him getting off the
train and just calmly walking away, much as Tyler Robinson did.
Police are swarming the area. He's just like walking away.
Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from
the scene. I'm totally chill. Check it out, just wandering
(24:31):
along until the nine one one calls that described what
he was wearing nail him. He's just blending in, Kessler.
He does not want to bring attention to himself by running.
His hand is dripping with blood. Is he in a
hurry to get to the dock in a box? No,
because he doesn't want police to see him running.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Right, And the two explanations, right, One is he's so
clever that he's just trying to.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Blend in and that's how clever he is.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Or he's got some mental issues and he's mentally insane
and he doesn't even realize that what he did was wrong.
And certainly in this case, that's got a good good
chance of success.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
Right, This guy is absolutely off the deep end.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
You see somebody like that, you immediately jump to why
would you do something like that? You've got to have
something wrong with you. It's got to go right to
a metal insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise you're
thinking this a normal guy who planned that kind of murder,
plan to just walk casually. He didn't plan this. He
didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't
know where he was. You heard later, Right, he's got
voices going on in his head. He's got some mental issues.
(25:32):
That's why he was walking around as if he did
nothing because he mentally.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah, he's got fourteen arrest and just got out of
jail in January and immediately did this. You know what,
everybody there he is, there's Kessler. There is the truth.
Kessler coming up with what some would say is a
brilliant argument that he walked up because he didn't know
(25:56):
he did anything wrong. You use what you got that
he didn't plan the incident, Randy Kessler. Under the law,
isn't it true that intent can be formed in the
blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment,
As my old judge, juge Luthor Alberson would say, isn't
(26:19):
that true? Premeditation does not require a long drawn out plan,
such as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months.
Isn't that true?
Speaker 5 (26:28):
It is true?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
And you might have missed another point, which is why
did he have a knife on him in the first place?
That probably helps the intent or planet, but the truth matters.
Why would he form intent to hurt this person? There's
no interaction. You're talking about passion murder where you see
your wife cheating with somebody else, or you see something
that disturbs you and throws you into your reg's his
wife cheating.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
That's my point.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
There's nothing that triggered this premeditation. You talk about forming
you know the intent because you see something. There was
nothing that happened to make him form the intent.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
It's you've never had a criminal that did the day
just because they felt like it. They had an itch
and they scratched it, And we always say why, Why? Why? Why?
Ask why? State doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't
have to be why. All I have to know is
who did it? Did they have intent? And am I
(27:20):
in the right jurisdiction? That's what I need to know.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Right And the defense will come up with the why.
The why is because he's mentally insane, Stock hard Stock.
That's the only explanation that's going to get him any
possibility of a defense.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
And very quickly if that's possible. Randy Kessler, you're used
to making long and eloquent arguments to jurys and appellate judges,
But we just agreed that intent can be formed in
literally the blink of an eye. But you're saying he's
(27:56):
clearly melely insane, This is a litmus tap a yes no.
Isn't it true that the rule of insanity, the insanity
test is the old McNaughton rule, brought over to the
US from Great Britain. And it's one simple question. Did
the suspect know right from wrong at the time of
(28:18):
the incident. I don't care what he says he heard
voices last week or tomorrow. Did he know what he
did at the time was wrong? Isn't that the old
McNaughton test.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
That's the old MacNaughton test.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
And I think it's it's very applicable here because when
at the time he did that, clearly, it's going to
be easy to argue he did not know that what
he was doing was wrong. He was acting under some impulse,
some mental diagnosis, some alternate personalities, something made him do that.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
Clearly, did you just.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Pull that out of your.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
Out of my way school business?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
The bottom line is he did this, and did he
know right for wrong at the moment he did it?
And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like
that must not have known what they were doing. Why
else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's
not somebody he knew it's not somebody else.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Why why does it matter?
Speaker 5 (29:15):
That's what you have.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
Moments after allegedly stabbing Irena Brown captured on video nonchalantly
walking the platform of the train station, Police with weapons
drawn and up, surround the suspected killer, taking him to
the ground and taking him into custody. On the train,
Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing
a black T shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around
(29:37):
his hands.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
And here he comes, just walking along, cavalierly, calmly, don't
look at me, nothing to see. Oops. I guess they
got my description. Joining me and All Star panel to
makes sense of what we know right now. Straight out
to Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, undercover narc former sheriff,
(30:02):
and author of a crime fiction series, Silent Blue Tears,
his new book coming out next week. Question to you,
Ron Bateman, when you know when you see the police
closing in, very often if ennits do not run, they
try to blend in, like Tyler Robinson did after he
(30:24):
allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the top
of that roof and then he didn't run. He walked
with Grandpa's long gun and then hit it. See what
I mean. That's just an example I'm giving you that
everyone is familiar with.
Speaker 12 (30:44):
Yeah, and it really goes to speak to his intent.
We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes.
And you'll see him if you've played a video back,
you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding
blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He
had to think about that, and then I believe when
he was stabbing the victim, I believe it's not a
lock blade. It actually closed and cut his finger and
(31:07):
that's why all the blood is dripping out on the
floor of the tree. But then the further show is intent.
He has the wherewithal. Remember we're talking about a guy
who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap.
He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity.
He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in
the hoodie, He tries to conceal his identity. He tries
(31:29):
to blend in and walk among the patrons. Let's not
even talk about all the people on the train that
didn't do a thing. That's another topic.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Not a dam in saying not a thing. In fact,
some of them in just not doing anything to help Arianna.
They actually started videoing her as she's dying. Okay, I'm
glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman about
the folding knife. Unlike the fixed blade knife used by
Brian Koberger to butcher four in a sent Idaho students,
(32:02):
this is a folding blade used in the murder of
Arena to Randy Kessler. Uh, oh, where's Kessler? Don't see him?
Let's see him. Kessler, go ahead and get your kleenex.
Because many people would argue one two seconds don't matter
what they do under the law. The time it takes,
(32:25):
and you can see it on video, him fidgeting around,
digging in his pockets to get the knife. Then he
unfolds the knife and positions it. That buys me about
five more seconds to form intent. Way when Kessler, yeah, well, I.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Don't know what you're going to do, and I don't
know what you want me to do with that. He
opened the knife and he did something with it. But
did he know what he was doing, did he know
that he was actually did he think it was him?
Speaker 5 (32:48):
His argument is going to be some other personality to
go over.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Think it was him?
Speaker 5 (32:52):
Wait what Yes, listen to the videos, Listen to the argument.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
I think it was due.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
He did not think it was himself. He thought of
somebody else in his somebody else making him do this.
He was obviously mentally disturbed, heating form the content. Something
in his brain went wrong and made him do that.
That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have
to use.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
I don't know what else he has.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
In the last hours, newly obtained nine to one one
audio and video. Now, this is video from the public
transport train. There's plenty of video circulating out there because
many of the train writers the patrons, instead of trying
to help Arena, started videoing her as she died. Let's
(33:34):
see thirty eight showing Arena getting onto the train and
taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked two jobs,
new to the US, seeking a better life according to
her family and God bless her soul. Look who is
(33:56):
sitting behind her, and he's staring at her right now
like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on,
looks around and takes a seat fortuitously in front of
the defendant. Let's move to thirty nine. I want you
to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is
(34:19):
what we call time to form intent. Fidgeting with the knife,
and we're stopping it right there. We don't need to
see the next frame. I'll see it again time right
there under the law to form intent. She comes and
sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like
a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it,
(34:43):
unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move
to forty. This video showing a close up of the
defendant's hands. That's Arena's hat. Look if that's not intent,
that is intent. What do you have to say to that?
(35:06):
Keep on the video, Kessler, look at that. I'm totally
going to slow mow that for the jury.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Right.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
You can tell me all day long that it's not
just about sensing. You're going to get a conviction, but
what made him do that? You say, the why doesn't matter.
Jury's always want to know why. And you know what,
if there's a mental insanity defense, the why is going
to matter, and that's going to be the only thing
he has if he goes to trial. To argue is
that he was out of his mind, he did not
know what he was doing, he was been controlled, possessed,
(35:36):
whatever it is, because you're right. Otherwise you've got the intent,
the you've got the conviction.
Speaker 5 (35:43):
If he doesn't use him at much.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Sure, if he was quote possessed all the other fourteen times,
maybe that he committed a crime, some of them violent.
This is not age progression, people, This is just a
few of his mini arrests. I say, Kessler, because I
don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're putting up. Kessler,
(36:06):
did you actually just say maybe he was possessed. You're
going to bring dem on expirits in as a defense.
I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I
heard it. I can play it back.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
You said, using a lay person termed.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
It's you know, you want to use psychological term schizophrenic.
Somebody he thought that he was possessed. He thought that
somebody else was in his body, some sort of government
device was in his body. He thought something else was
going on. He is not owning this act. He did
not say I don't know why I did this. He
was saying, look, you know, I don't know what happened.
But they need to scan me, they need to investigate me,
(36:38):
They need to figure this out. Something was going on
in his brain, and we don't understand brains yet far
enough to understand why this happened.
Speaker 5 (36:44):
But clearly he did not say I did it and.
Speaker 4 (36:46):
I'm sorry or I can't figure out why I did it.
He doesn't seem to have any recollection, so it's a
mental health defense.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
It's clearly recollection. I can tell you this is the
deathnitel for the defense when a JD starts talking like
an MD. I just heard you trying to describe the
human brain. Good luck with that. I know my limitations.
I am not Did you hear me talking to coin?
I know that. I don't know, but I love you
(37:16):
theorizing on his brain function. I want to go to
a special guest joining us any Con. He is director
of Victim Services and Advocacy Crime Stoppers out of Houston.
Longtime friend and colleague who first introduced me to murder
rebelia people making money off murder? Any Con. How many
(37:38):
times have you heard a defense attorney much like Randy
Kessler joining us tonight state he didn't know what he
was doing. Well, you know what. He knew what train
stop to get off, didn't he He needed to take
off that bloody shirt and wrap it around his hand,
not just the hurt hand that he sliced himself, but
to change clothes. He got off that train at the
(38:01):
very next stop and tried to walk away hit it. Andy.
Speaker 7 (38:06):
You know the.
Speaker 5 (38:07):
Video speaks volumes.
Speaker 14 (38:08):
I mean, there's no way off answer, Butts, he knew
exactly what he was doing.
Speaker 5 (38:11):
He tried to cover up.
Speaker 14 (38:13):
But the real story to me is you had a
young lady who fled war torn, war torn Ukraine only
to end up being murdered in the United States. Now
we look at what happened with the defendant. This defendant's
got a rap sheet. Ye long fourteen arrest and in
and out of jail, in and out of prisons, in
(38:35):
and out of mental hospitals, and so forth.
Speaker 10 (38:38):
This is a.
Speaker 14 (38:39):
Total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure. This is a tragedy, yes,
but it was so utterly preventable. And my position again
is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into
our community to do what they do best, and that's
commit This is not just a North Carolina It's a
(39:03):
national issue. In Houston We've documented over two hundred plus
people that have been murdered by defendants released on what's
called a personal recognance bond, which is what this defendant
was recently released on. That is about as disturbing as
it gets. And I'm hoping that this will ultimately open
(39:25):
up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all
over the country that the criminal justice reform movement has
led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural
disaster in this country's history.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace two Susan Hendricks joining US
investigative journalists. I want to follow up on what Andy
kan just said. This guy just got out of jail.
Why who let him out of jail? Exactly?
Speaker 13 (40:06):
And it was mentioned of a foreigm laws they're not
working fourteen. When you put up those mug shots, Nancy,
and that's not all of them, you think, how could
this guy have gotten out? What was he doing there
in the first place? The governor signing a law in
her name, Arena's law. But he even says, look, this
isn't enough. It's a step in the right direction, but
(40:27):
it's clearly not enough, meaning it will take away some
of the power from the judges to make that decision
in letting someone who has priors out of prison.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about
as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name
is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
In September twenty twenty two, Brown arrested on assault on
a female an injury to property. April twenty twenty four,
Brown arrested for me using nine one one May twenty
twenty four, misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five,
misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five. Judge Teresa
Stokes release Brown the same day he was arrested on
a written promise to appear. Brown did not present himself
(41:15):
for evaluation. Three weeks later. He is alleged to have
killed Irena. If that order was followed, he would have
been evaluated weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in
his murdered charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity,
and Wiggins again ordered dB evaluated. Police have not identified
any motive or lengthy attack to mental illness in the
(41:36):
last hours.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Newly released nine to one one audio and video. Let's
take a look this video is showing the defendant calmly
waiting to exit the train. He knows exactly what he's doing,
making way for people, and look at everybody walking around
the blood. Yeah they didn't help her, but they don't
(41:58):
want to get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes.
He knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows
when the train door opens that this is his exit
and he's leaving. Oranda, by the way, is bleeding out
dead right now. To Randy Kessler joining us, this is
(42:20):
not only a state case, but a federal case as well.
Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed
that are death qualified. What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Because you want to make it appeal proof, right, lawyers
that are qualified to take on death penalty cases. Then
he cant after the fact say well, I had ineffective
assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to handle
a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Straightforward, easy is that the case will get reversed if
there is a conviction, if there is a death penalty sentence,
if the lawyers are not death qualified. In other words,
you have to sit on X number of death penalty cases,
either first chair or second chair. So you know what
(43:13):
you're doing. It's got to be a fair fight, now,
isn't a true? Susan Hendrix that he the suspect has
been sent for evaluation, mental evaluation to see if he
is competent to stand trial.
Speaker 13 (43:29):
Yes, absolutely he is and will be evaluated. I was
listening to a prison phone call between him and his
sister and he doesn't make any sense. I don't know
if that's because he is insane or he's acting like
he does have a problem.
Speaker 5 (43:45):
But I think they.
Speaker 13 (43:46):
Will, of course be brought into court and he will
be evaluated, and I think that that's the way the
defense will go. But how can you erase these fourteen
mugshots in all and the video there is just like
you said, Nancy planning this out, opening the knife and
doing it. He said to his sister in the jailhouse
call that he felt that they wanted him.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
To do it. He didn't do it, he was told
to do it.
Speaker 13 (44:10):
We'll see if that works.
Speaker 5 (44:11):
I doubt it.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
You know, Kessler, there's a big difference in evaluating someone
for incompetency and insanity. Explain and a nutshell. What is incompetency, Well, compecy, you.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Have to understand the proceedings.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
It's not fair you can't help the lawyer defend you
if you're incompetent to stand trial. If you don't understand
the proceedings. To get off the hook for murder, you
have to have been insane at the time that it
happened that the thing happened. In Competency is more a
question of ability to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings?
You need to be able to help in your own defense.
And if you're not able to help in your own defense,
(44:50):
then you don't have a trial until you are able
to assist in your own defense.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Nutshell, kel slar. Would you agree that competency is being
able to to assist your lawyers in your defense at
your trial? Competent you are competent to assist your defense attorneys? Yes, okay?
And insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at
the time of the incident. The time of arena is killing.
(45:16):
They are two very different things.
Speaker 5 (45:19):
Right, don't like to agree with you, but yes.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
So first, the lawyer is going to try to get
enroled incompetent. Why delay delay, delay, that's the first and
the last rule in the defense playbook. Why people forget
about it. Their memories fade, witnesses actually die, important witnesses
actually die or move, you can't find them, and the
(45:43):
inflammation surrounding the murder of an innocent young woman can
die down. How people forget about it. That's why the
defense wants a delay. Would you at least agree with that?
Speaker 4 (45:56):
Yes, And it's probably easier to find incompetent at the
time a trial than insanity at the time. How do
you get inside of his mind at that exact moment,
whereas right now they can interview him, Now we can
have a psychologists test him. Now, you know, it's easier
for a justice say I'm going to put off the
trial then do say, oh, we're going to let him
off the hook for murder because of insanity. So it's
an easier thing to argue for the defense council, and
(46:18):
you get a second bite at the apple. If you
lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at the
time of the murder.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Right, So if at some point, if he is rehabbed
and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then
when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity,
and there are a host of variations. There's guilty but
mentally ill, there's not guilty by reason of insanity. There's
guilty but insane, just as a whole variation of what
(46:50):
a jury can come back on. Just throw me a
few choices, Kessler.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter what
you call him, and it's state by state. Each state
calls different things. But you're giving the jury options. If
there are people on the jury that say there's something
wrong with him. I can't find that he's a normal
person that just intentionally went after this person and did it.
I want to give him some minor little break because
he's got mental issues. They all to do use one
of those other excuses to convict and say he had
(47:18):
mental issues. Mental you know, but you're right you named
three or four of them. They're called a whole bunch
of different things depending on which date you're in. But
there are other options besides murder one.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
What about Andy Kahn.
Speaker 14 (47:29):
You know, as much as you want to blame the offender,
and obviously he deserves a lot.
Speaker 5 (47:34):
Of blame, what happened to this young lady?
Speaker 14 (47:36):
I blame our criminal justice system even more. They kept
knowingly allowing him to re enter society time and time again,
only to see him reoffend time and time again. And
how on the heck do you justify giving someone are
you no bond? A cash no cash bond and say here,
(47:59):
you know in court that's insane to actually allow someone
with his rap sheet just to walk out of court
on the promise that you'll reappear again. This is what's
driving our system and why the public has just lost
faith because we keep seeing offenders like him that are
(48:20):
recycled all over the time, and they end up killing people.
This was a tragedy, but it was so utterly preventable
and it's a total systematic failure.
Speaker 10 (48:32):
And I know you'll agree.
Speaker 14 (48:33):
With me on this, Nancy, but I get sick and
tired of naming laws after dead people. And yet now
we have a new law named after Arena that hopefully
others won't end up with the same faith as she
has now become.
Speaker 15 (48:48):
Despite all of this past documented criminal history. When Brown
was arrested yet again in January of this past year,
a Democrat.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Judge who will I will add was.
Speaker 15 (48:57):
A supporter a strong supporter of form or Vice President
Kamala Harris released this insane criminal once again without requiring
him to pay any bail. He simply had to sign
a written promise to return for his court hearing. Think
about how crazy it is to ask a career criminal,
someone who by definition repeatedly breaks the law, to just
(49:20):
sign a written promise and come.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Back again another day. This is madness.
Speaker 15 (49:24):
This monster should have been locked up and Arena should
still be alive.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
From Fox Straight Out to Karen's Stark forensic psychologist renowned
TV radio trauma expert Karen way In.
Speaker 8 (49:39):
I have to tell you, Nancy, yes, this guy has
been diagnosed I've heard with schizophrenia, but I see intent.
He knew to have that knife. He fled after he
committed that crime. And when her sister said to him,
why did you do that? Why did you do that
to the citizen person? And he said she was reading
(50:02):
my mind, which tells me that he has a rationalization
that he actually, after the fact, was trying to explain
what he did, which means that he knows the difference,
He understands he did something, and he wants to come
up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent,
(50:23):
I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Ron Bateman joining me. Former homicide detective, former undercover narc
and author of a series Silent Blue Tears. You can
find it at Ronbatemanbooks dot com. Ron is, the investigators
here are, much like yourself, have their work cut out
for them. They don't have to prove just what happened.
(50:49):
They've got the right guy. Now the state, including investigators,
are going to have to prove he knew what he
was doing and that it was wrong. Ron, how do
you go about doing that?
Speaker 12 (51:02):
Well, you know, you got to ask the question, which
is really obvious. If he didn't know what what he
was doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat?
If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was
going on, what he did was right, he would have
stayed put. But we know we've already talked about it.
He did all those things. He tried to conceal his
identity and tried to burn into the crowd and blah
(51:22):
blah blah, try to cover his hand up and all that.
But I got to make one point that the community
is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear Nancy, but
I do what the hell is wrong with the media
by Keith repeatedly showing these this murder over and over again.
Thank god your staff didn't do it today. We saw
Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor
(51:44):
girl staff a thousand times. Are we so desensitized that
we have totally thrown away the victim's dignity and respect
that her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't
learn about it in private.
Speaker 5 (52:00):
They should have.
Speaker 12 (52:01):
This is really despicable that the media released this video.
Now you can release stills of the suspects so we
can find them. Good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department,
you know, I don't know if it's a PIA that
went out of Public Information Act request, but they released
it and they didn't give it any thought, and it
was just for a god darned sound bite. And that's
bull crap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just just
(52:25):
off the charts.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Andy con He's right.
Speaker 14 (52:29):
We are caring more about defendants rights than we are
about victims' rights, and we repeatedly see this with crime
scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims.
Speaker 5 (52:43):
That are murdered and she deserves better.
Speaker 14 (52:46):
But again I'm going to close with this. The defendant
fair share of the blame. But this is a total
systematic failure. It never should have happened. You cannot continue.
You to continue to recycle offenders over and over again
and expect a better outcome. She paid the ultimate price.
(53:10):
The only question is how many more are going to
pay the price under the guise of criminal justice reform
that has taking its toll on all our citizens throughout
the country. Enough is enough? This has to end.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Hey Nancy, Yeah, jump Han please.
Speaker 12 (53:25):
Yeah, what I want to say? You know, we're so
we were so hell bent on showing this video over
and over again. Are we going to show a firing squad, which,
by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day.
Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No,
that's we're not, because we just care about this little
cool SoundBite to get some attention, which is horrible, horrible
(53:48):
for the victims.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
And I assume you're referring to the moment that Arena
was actually stabbed, Doctor Coin, question to you. Many people
want to believe that Arena's death was instantaneous, that she
felt nothing. That one moment, she's looking at her phone.
In the next moment she's looking at angels. That's not
what happened, Doctor Coyne. She suffered No.
Speaker 11 (54:11):
I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious,
you know, within a minute or just less. But she
certainly would have felt that stab wound, and you could
see when she looked at her attacker. She certainly would
have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before
she passed out.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
And to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist and author, Susan what next.
Speaker 13 (54:40):
We owe Arena something. The United States owes her something.
I hope there's real change here. The embassy US embassy
in Ukraine working to get her body back there. Guess
what her mom said. No, she loved the United States.
That's why she came here. She's buried here. We owe
her something. I hope real change comes out of this.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
If you know or think you know anything about this case,
the case is being built by the state and the defense.
As we go to air tonight, please dial seven zero
four three three four sixteen hundred repeat seven zero four
three three four sixteen hundred and let me emphasize as
(55:24):
we go to air de Curlos. Brown is presumed innocent
unless and until the state overcomes that presumption with evidence
that proves this guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. And no,
we do not want anyone that was legally insane at
the time of the incident to get the death penalty. However,
(55:47):
his actions belie that claim. We remember an American hero
Officer Ray Barontis child Chilipea, d California, killed in the
line of duty, leaving behind a grieving wife in three children.
American hero Officer Ray Brantis. Nancy Grace signing off your
(56:11):
wife had
Host
Nancy Grace
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