November 4, 2025 • 53 mins
America’s Next Top Model was a pioneer of LGBTQIA+ representation on reality TV. The show gave us iconic queer judges, featured an openly lesbian contestant on season one, and even made groundbreaking decisions to cast a transgender model in 2008. But like many things with this show, the way production treated these contestants and their identity was flawed. In this episode, we explore how Top Model broke barriers and reshaped the culture, while hearing from the queer contestants who paid the price for its flaws.
CORRECTION: This episode has been updated for accuracy. Episodes downloaded before November 5th, 2025 will not reflect the correction.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This girl is absolutely amazing. She's got to come back
from America's sex top model.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I said this girl, and.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
My staff said, Tira, there's something a little different about
that girl. So what's different about that girl?
Speaker 3 (00:11):
In two thousand and eight, Isis King made America's next
top model history.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
I was born physically male, but mentally everything else I
was born female. Some people might say that I'm a transgender,
some people might say transsexuals. Personally, I prefer born on
a wrong body, meaning I was born physically male on
the outside, but everything else about me was female.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Isis was the first out trans contestant on A and TM.
For a lot of viewers, this was their first time
seeing a trans person on a reality show talking so
openly about their identity.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Tell me about when you knew that you were a
girl as long as I can remember, It's not something
I've chose. This is who always been.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And of course Tyra got real personal, real quick.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
So let's talk about surgery. Are you pre top TRANSGENDERO?
Speaker 5 (00:59):
Pre op?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
And do you want to have the surgery one day?
Speaker 6 (01:02):
If I could have it?
Speaker 7 (01:03):
Right?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Nown on?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
What Isis had a hell of a story. On cycle ten,
the models did a shoot where they were supposed to
serve homeless shekh you know, living on the streets, but
make it fashion. A and TM used actual people experiencing homelessness.
It's extras. In the shute, Isis was living at the shelter.
A ANDTM partnered with you were.
Speaker 8 (01:24):
One of the girls from the shelter who participated in
our shoot in the background as an extra. Let's face it,
there's a reason you're here because you know how to
give me catoul and yes, there we go.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It blew me away.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
She slay better than some of the actual A and
TM models, So Tyra cast her on the next season,
cycle eleven. You know she loves her at Cinderella Story
and from the moment Isis walked on the set, she
had to face some evil stepsisters.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So Isis.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I thought she looked little manly, like I have small
boobs too, but her boobs she has no boobs. So
I told her to come over here. We're like, come here.
You know you're part of the any bitty committee, So
y'all want to figure me out, right, y'all want to
figure me out. During the audition, Isis was minding her
business when a group of girls called her over to
(02:13):
ask why her boobs were so small? Wait to tap
dance around the question, so true.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Are you physically.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Without wanting on of What started out is caddy curiosity
quickly turned mean spirited and bigoted. My mind was like,
what girl? How'd you Ain't this supposed to be a
girl competition?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
How did you get through the door? Like you up?
Speaker 7 (02:41):
If I have get along with Isis, I will, But
then again, if it comes between me and my goal,
I'll stop.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Let man write out of the competition. And this was
just during the auditions. Once Isis made it into the house,
things got worse.
Speaker 7 (02:58):
I'm not gonna lie me uncomfortable as hell. Olena brings
me out that when she got something else different down
there than me.
Speaker 9 (03:05):
I could think the thing about Isis so is Like
I was like trying to convince myself I was comfortable,
like Henry, Henry un comfortable, but really I'm not. Sometimes
people have a more view of transition.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, like I always felt I'm a.
Speaker 9 (03:16):
Like time of a small town.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Hell yeah, we won't want yoh you hell yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
You were growing back in a small town. You was shot.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
But not everyone was terrible. There were a few girls
who were welcoming and supportive of Isis.
Speaker 10 (03:29):
Now that person shot I mean before this competition is
going to bear gosh mad and is your spirit and
how much she wants to be for Isis to be
so brave and so secure with who she is and
being able to not let anything bother her. It's very commendable.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Isis made a few friends, and she found girls she
could trust with her most private moments. Isis had just
started transitioning before cycle eleven. She was new to taking
hormone injections. She didn't want to do it alone, so
she asked another contestant, Annalie Tipton, to keep her company.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
In order to keep up my transition, I have to
take hormonal injections. Are you heard of needles? Gnia tell
Annalie she's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her
and I asked her was. She kind of helped distract
me while I'm giving myself the injection.
Speaker 7 (04:18):
They can make superfaces for you.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I'm nky, I knew I mean chicken impression.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
She's had me laughing and made it a lot easier
for me. Now I'm starting to get like Nausha's damn.
Speaker 9 (04:31):
It's something that means so much to her and to
share that with there was quite a personal moment.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I thought.
Speaker 9 (04:36):
I took it as a huge compliment that you asked
me to be there, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
It looked like a sweet moment. Years after A and
tum Annalie came out as non binary. Today they go
by Leo, But in two thousand and eight, there was
barely any public conversation about trans identity. When there was,
trans people were the butt of the joke or met
with fear and disdain. Seeing ices take our hormone injection
(05:04):
on camera was groundbreaking. Producers presented isis in a way
that humanized her struggle. The audience saw the ridicule she
faced from the other girls, and we saw her dedication
to transitioning. It sent the message that trans people aren't
confused about their gender. They're people who are willing to
go to great lengths to affirm their gender. It was
(05:26):
a big deal for this to happen on broadcast television,
and it's a moment that seared into the memory of
a lot of queer people. It might be hard to
remember these days, but A and TM was actually a
pioneer in queer representation. In two thousand and five the
queer feminist website after Ellen called A and TM the
(05:47):
queerest place in primetime. But the problem was those groundbreaking
moments often came at the expense of the queer contestants themselves,
Like that sweet moment where Isis took her hormone shot.
She says she didn't want to do it. According to
Isis and TM producers deceived her into doing it on camera.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Want to be on some.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm
Rigid Armstrong. America's Next Top Model stands out as a
pioneer in LGBTQ representation, But like everything with this show,
the way they treated those representatives was complicated, in part
(06:39):
because A and TIM was always thinking about the story,
not necessarily the contestants. The impact of the decision to
cast Isis King can't be measured. It was pivotal for
so many trans viewers who'd never seen positive portrayals of
people like them. Isis was a symbol of what's possible.
(06:59):
But behind the scenes, Isis felt like A ANDTM was
trying to make her a spectacle. When A and TM
went co ed on cycle twenty, they cast a gender
fluid gay man before those terms were even mainstream. He
challenged the idea that male models must be overtly masculine,
and he had to because the judges constantly chastised him
(07:21):
for being too feminine. But A and TM is also
the show that gave us iconic queer judges Jay Manuel Nole, Marin,
j Alexander or Miss Jay and later Andre Leon Tally
and law Roach. It's a show that featured an openly
lesbian contestant on season one and highlighted her loving relationship.
It's a show that featured queer and gender fluid contestants
(07:44):
from the beginning until the end. So on this episode,
we're going to take a look at everything A and
TM got right and wrong when it comes to gender
and sexual identity. We'll explore how they broke barriers and
changed the world while harming the very contestants they were
changing the world for.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Hi might go to school at Wesleyan University, which is
in Connecticut.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
We're at the Cycle five auditions and a contestant named
Kim Stoles just entered the competition. She's rocking a v
Nex sweater over a tie and button up shirt, collar
popped very preppy very two thousand and five. At this point,
you've heard me say this a lot because we're talking
about a modeling show and everyone's pretty. But Kim was
(08:31):
gorgeous when it came to her face card. She was
a classic beauty, or at least that's what I think
white people mean when they say that her mom was
a high fashion model in the eighties. That's probably where
she got her looks from. Kim had a short, dark
brown pixie cut in doe green eyes. Her haircut combined
with her cutesy face kind of made her look like
(08:52):
a baby doll. But something about Kim made her stand
out for the rest of the girls, and it wasn't
just her beauty.
Speaker 7 (09:01):
To be honest with you, like, I think I can
bring something different to modeling, and I've got a little
bit more of a I don't want to say masculine,
but I'm as well mas killing luck whatever who I
want to be out like, I'm gay and I am
I'm really proud of it.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I think this a certain thing of being proud, like
I'm black and proud, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
But I'm not like walking down the red carpet. I'm right,
I'm an pro.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
You know, one thing about Tyra Banks, She's gonna make
a moment about herself.
Speaker 7 (09:26):
I'm certainly not gonna, like, you know, walk down the
red car and like try to kiss girls on the way.
You know, It's like not what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Kim wasn't the first contestant who was openly queer on
the show. We talked about ebonye Haight from cycle one,
Michelle Dayton from cycle four was bisexual, and there are
other models who came out after the show. I will
say this about A and TM after cycle one. They
rarely explored storylines about a contestant's discomfort with another contestant sexuality.
(09:53):
Maybe it was a reflection of society's growing acceptance. So
unlike Ebony on season one, Kim didn't seem to face
any criticism from the other models simply because she was gay.
In fact, several of them seemed quite curious. Kim even
had a little fleeing in the house with another model,
despite Kim having a girlfriend. Are you are you full
(10:13):
on lesbian?
Speaker 7 (10:14):
I mean you're not by or I only did girls. Yeah,
a lot of these girls, I don't know anyone like
who is gay and like it's like kind of exciting
for them. But I mean, I miss my girlfriend from home,
and like I'm in like an open relationship, but I
don't plan on acting on that.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
She definitely acted on it.
Speaker 7 (10:33):
We're oven right now and she can make out the
until she wants. I don't care as long as like
she wants to pens I get back.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, that was probably ridiculous.
Speaker 7 (10:38):
Hopefully's ridiculous because I'm ring hit on its crazy.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I'll hang out with you, Kim.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Kim identified as a lesbian, but she was still figuring
out her gender expression. This was two thousand and five,
before terms like non binary or gender fluid were widely accepted.
With the judges, it wasn't Kim's sexuality they focused on.
It was what they saw as her lack of femininity.
On the first runway of the season, the models had
(11:06):
to do their own makeup. Kim had never worn makeup.
The models wore cocktail dresses and heels and had to
walk down this oddly shaped runway. It was meant to
be confusing, and let's just say a lot of the
walks were not good, including Kim's. Here's what the judges
told her.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Next, we have Kim.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Oh no, oh, what was the neck?
Speaker 7 (11:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
You're trying to be something that you're not. You're trying
to be so sexy and so girly and you look
like a man in a dress.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Girl.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
You just need to go with your strong masculinity. That's
what brought you here.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
They put Kim in a cocktail dress, heels and makeup
and then chastise her for trying to be girly. But fine.
It was the first episode, and at least Tyra encouraged
him to embrace her androgyny to be herself, but that
encouragement did not last long. Kim got a lot of
mixed messages from the panel. When she tried to be herself,
(12:01):
she was told she was too masculine. When she pushed
herself to be more feminine, the judges seemed surprised and delighted.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Your film shocked the hell out of me. This is
so like beyond feminine. It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
If you just showed me that, I wouldn't have known
that was Kim. She she likes a Ketchersmith, look at those paws.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
One time. Nigel Barker even made a joke out of
calling her Tim instead of Kim.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I would never believe it's the same person.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
And I think this is a turning point for Tim. Tim,
you sure did.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I saw that Kim by day, Tim by night.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I actually think she's hot, hot, hot, hot hot, which
means I'm getting in touch with my androgynous feminine side.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Maybe I'm not really sure.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Kim got a lot of contradicting messages from the judges
when it came to her gender expression.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Kim, he learned, how did do all that feminine stuff?
But today I asked for a signature walk, Kim, I
asked for you today.
Speaker 7 (12:55):
I'm constantly trying to figure out what my gender is.
That's hard in life, in this competition, every day, all
the time.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I suggest that you get some male fashion magazines, because
when men model, they're slightly feminine, right. You can learn
from looking at that as well as female magazines.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
A PM did bring supermodel Jenny Smith to the house
to talk to the girls. Jenny was queer and gender
non conforming. She talked to the models about finding their
own lane in fashion.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
My big story is that a minority, I am five
foot seven, I have a lot of tattoos, and a
gay model.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Kim theemed especially inspired.
Speaker 7 (13:32):
It's really an important thing for me to see not
conforming to just a generalized kind of woman.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
I've always been a tomboy, and I wanted to tell
you guys that the differences in modeling are actually beautiful things.
Speaker 7 (13:43):
Are you saying a tomboy? And so I was wondering,
like in terms of wearing like really feminine clothing like
on the runway, I'm wondering how you reconcile or make like,
you know, a dress like beautiful.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
I take it as that's a piece of art that
I'm going to wear. There's always room for someone who's
going to add flair to fashion.
Speaker 7 (13:59):
Jenny's struggle is a lot like what I'm going through. Now.
This gives me hope that I can get farther.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
But even after that visit from Jenny'smezo and that pep
talk about being yourself, the judges were hard on Kim,
which might seem odd for a show like A and TM.
When it premiered, it featured two queer men as central
members of the cast, Mister and Miss j. They later
added Nole Marin as a judge who was also queer.
(14:25):
They had several queer guest judges and Miss J was
gender fluid before anybody was calling it that. He was
a runway coach for years and he'd been wearing fabulous
dresses and heels on the set of ANTM since Cycle Ie.
One time, Kim actually called out the contradiction of Miss
J being the one to criticize her gender expression. The
girls were asked to do their best signature runway walks
(14:48):
for Miss J. They were at a pool and for
some reason, Miss J brought all these church lady hats
and told them to make the hats a part of
their walk. When it was Kim's turn, Miss Jay was
already prepared for the worst. This to be real special
because you are special.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
I want to try to put my own personality into it,
but also having a feminine flair, and it's just difficult
for me.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
It's a marionette for doctor strings. Kim's walk was awkward.
She had on this afternoon tea outfit, but she was
also trying to strut like a male model. The church
hat wasn't helping. Campbell has an incredible face.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
She should be able to do any really well, but
unfortunately don't have five years.
Speaker 7 (15:31):
I need to somehow bring my masculinity and femininity into
the walk.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I lost words usually have something to say. I am
really lost for words.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
If anyone should understand a difference of gender expression, she
should be the one.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I mean, are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
There's a lot of queer representation in the fashion industry.
People aren't surprised to see a gay male designer, stylist,
makeup artist, or runway coach, but for models sometimes it's different.
These days, the industry has become more inclusive of different
gender expression, but in two thousand and five, there was
an idea that female models needed to embody femininity, and
(16:14):
while A ANDTM embraced queer contestants and judges on the show,
they also upheld the notion that contestants need to conform
to certain gender norms. It's a dynamic room, Longoria saw
when they competed on cycle sixteen. When they were on
A ANDTM, the show identified them as being polyhamorous, although
at the time they identified as being bisexual. After the show,
(16:38):
Room came out as non binary. Here they are talking
with Oliver Twigs on his YouTube channel.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Quite a few have said that they were openly queer
during filming, but.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I'm never made it on the show, it was brushed aside.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 11 (16:52):
I mean, especially like in that era of television, like
you were allowed to be gay in a way that
made sense to the people that were going to be
watching it.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Like I'm pretty sure I talked about.
Speaker 11 (17:06):
The gender spectrum and feeling like I swung around on
it and stuff. But yes, I agree that they do
tend to hide things that are difficult to understand and
show support for.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
A and TM included queer contestants, but they only showed
the parts that would fit into a storyline, and it
needed to be a storyline the show thought their audience
would understand. Some queer contestants say their gender and sexuality
wasn't mentioned at all, while others had their whole storyline
built around it, like Kim on cycle five. Her entire
(17:39):
character arc was about how she was a masculine lesbian
struggling to become feminine enough to model. I don't want
to downplay the decision to cast Kim Stoles on season five.
For A and TM's young, mostly female audience, it was
pretty cool to see an openly lesbian woman who described
herself as masculine on a modeling competition for young women
(18:00):
who may have been questioning their own sexuality. Kim was
an example of how to be out and proud. Also,
Kim was beautiful, so beautiful she was chosen to be
on a modeling competition, which contradicted the idea that so
called masculine lesbians are unattractive. Kim talked about her struggle
with gender norms and figuring where she fit in. Seeing
(18:22):
that struggle on A ANDTM was huge for a lot
of queer young people watching at home who may have
been going through the same thing, but they saw that
struggle play out because she was on a reality show
that was pressuring her to be more feminine. Fifteen seasons later,
A ANDTM cast its first openly gay male contestant when
(18:42):
the show went co ed, But according to him, at
least when it came to gender expression, the show hadn't
learned much.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
It's two feminine if we can tell them the same
thing week off the week.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
We'll get into that after the break.
Speaker 12 (19:00):
The second that I understood that they were really trying
to centralize my queer identity and really just like diminish
my whole persona and my whole identity to just one
character trait and that is my gainness. I definitely took
those cues and I ran with it.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Corey Wade was a contestant on A and TM cycle
twenty or two point zero as they were calling it.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
It was the.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
First guy girl season. A and TM did three co
ed cycles. Corey was the first openly gay man on
A and TM. His presence on the show was an
opportunity to explore a new trope. Corey was there token
gay guy. He figured out what the show wanted from
him during the auditions, and he decided to go along
(19:47):
with it.
Speaker 6 (19:49):
These men are nothing but eye candy to me. It's
psychological warfare. Honey, comminance is key, Honey. Anything you'll do, boo,
do it with confidence.
Speaker 12 (20:00):
I definitely took it and I ran with it.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
I'm not going to say it didn't hurt.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Corey is probably the most clear eyed contestant I spoke with,
maybe because he was on a later season. It was
twenty thirteen and A ANDTM had been running for ten
years at this point. He told me he had no
illusions about how reality TV works. He didn't think A
ANDTM was going to make him a top model. He
auditioned for the show because he wanted exposure. Corey wanted
(20:28):
to be a star.
Speaker 12 (20:29):
If I look back to twenty two year old Corey
auditioning for America's Sexu Model, my mission at that point
in time, it was very like vapid and hollow. I
just wanted to be famous, like I didn't care how.
I just wanted to do it. Did I think that
this was going to like make me into a supermodel
like Bella and Gigi Headeed's status.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
No, I don't think I was ever.
Speaker 12 (20:52):
Delusional about that, to be honest with you. But I
did know that it was going to get my name
out there. I did know that I was in pursuit
of a career in entertainment.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
At the time, Corey was a musical theater actor performing
in regional plays. He thought getting on A and TM
would help his entertainment career. Plus, he'd been a huge
Top Model fan growing.
Speaker 12 (21:15):
Up when I was in middle school. Oh my gosh,
that was like my world. I loved America's accept Model.
I was obsessed like doing like after school hangouts with
girlfriends and like perching around the TV and getting ready
for the next episode.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
That was my life.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
He idolized Tyra. In fact, When Corey was bullied in
high school, the other kids called him Tyra is in
Tyra Banks, and it wasn't a compliment, but he took
it as one.
Speaker 12 (21:42):
Tira, you know, growing up, I was kind of like
obsessed with her and her talk show and just enamored
by her career trajectory and just everything that she stood
for promoting body positivity, having opened the LGBTQI plus people
on her talk show and not in a way that
was kind of like demeaning.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
I know, I've taken some shots at Tyro's talk show
on this podcast, but Corey's right. This was the time
when talk shows were still doing surprise I'm really a
man dating reveal segments, So in comparison, both Tyro's talk
show and A and TM were progressive.
Speaker 12 (22:15):
She would uplift them and hear their stories and advocate
for them at a time where that wasn't really popular.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Corey also admired the queer representation he saw on A
and TM. It had been pivotal for him as a
queer teenager.
Speaker 12 (22:30):
I look back at Isis specifically, and I see this
like warrior of truth. And she went back and did
the All Star cycle and slay that as well, and
then you look at representatives like on the judges panel,
like Miss J Alexander, who is just this like godess
and just like who like free expression but you can't
(22:50):
tell me nothing queer off the beaten path, visibly queer,
but you can't tell me not.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Then by the time Corey auditioned for A and TM
Jay Manuel and Miss J Alexander had been replaced. There
was an entirely new panel of judges. Corey was disappointed.
He was looking forward to meeting the queer icon Miss Jay.
He felt Miss J would get him.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I wanted Misster Alexander to be on my judges panel.
I was missing that.
Speaker 12 (23:22):
Slamboyant just like ooh, real, raw, unapologetic gay personality just there.
I missed it and I didn't get it. And they
tried to like half ass a version of that by
having Brian Boy on our show.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
But he tried not to let that get him down.
He was going to be on the show that he
loved as a kid, a show that cast isis King
and Miss J. Corey went in expecting his queerness to
be celebrated or at the very least accepted, so he
was caught off guard. At the first judging panel of
the season.
Speaker 12 (24:00):
Like, oh my gosh, you look very very feminine in
this photo. Come to think that you present very feminine,
and you know what, you dressed very feminine. You talk
very feminine and femininely, like everything is feminine.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
The first photo shoot of the season was a wedding shoe.
Corey was posing as the groom alongside one of the
female models Smoke.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
When I found out I was paired with Corey, I
was scared because the most challenging part is.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Going to be, like Corey being masculine.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I just want to point out in this shoe there
was a gay wedding, a lesbian wedding, a polygamy wedding,
and one guy married a remote control so gender roles
didn't seem that critical to the shoes. But here's the
feedback Corey got from one of the judges. Corey, were
you playing a guy or a woman in the shot?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I was playing a guy.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
Okay, you're gonna have to work your stray guye a
little more.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
I agree with Kelly, you're not selling a complete palastamm
in this fire.
Speaker 6 (24:50):
I think this picture of you is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
I don't see an epic fail, smizing you're piercing the camera.
I'm gonna give you that was Tyr you heard at
the end, and I will say. By the time Corey
competed on the show, Tyra seemed a bit more evolved.
She advocated for Corey in his femininity a lot on
this season. One of the newer judges brought in for
the co ed season was a straight male model named
(25:13):
Rob Evans. Rob was rumored to be dating Tyra at
this time, and when it came to Corey, he completely
disagreed with his alleged lover.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I don't particularly like this far that much. Was It's
two feminine.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
We've been tell him the same thing week after weekend.
He just gets.
Speaker 10 (25:30):
Brainwashed by YouTube every single time.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Brain washed.
Speaker 12 (25:33):
If he come into a place like presenting yourself the
way you do, they will think you're the makeupartes.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Tyra and Kelly Catron, the other female judge on this season,
didn't back down from Rob, and neither did Corey.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Depends on the friend, I'm coming at you as a
male model.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
I hear right now this and can I speak of
this actually?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Please go on?
Speaker 6 (25:51):
I really really love to work by androgeny when my
passion for modeling, you know, developed, and when it actually sparked.
It's when I started seeing pictures of people you know,
who were more intros AND's, And in the past few
years more of that has been coming out to the forefront.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
What's gonna happen?
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Corey gave a heartfelt explanation that should have taken the
attention off his so called lack of masculinity, but instead
it made Rob Evans focus on it more. For Rob,
the barometer for how well Corey performed in a runway
or photoshoot was how masculine he could be. Choreer, I
like this shout of you.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
It's very dude.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
If I didn't know any better, you pull off a
due to me and good job, min.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I'm prony he is a dude.
Speaker 6 (26:29):
You look like a man.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
What shall I say? No, he is a man?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Okay? I think you look straight in this? Yikes? Is
that meant to be a compliment? Corey? The thing about
you always know how to sell what you were, and
I that you have to tell you.
Speaker 7 (26:43):
Look more money more.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It's just that's what you're delivering.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Good job, thanks, But it wasn't just Rob. Corey also
got it from photographers.
Speaker 12 (26:50):
Oh, Corey, that's this gay halls, Corey, moose in quite
a feminine right, and as a male model, you really
have to appeal to men change.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
You got to have a good right, right, he'd laws
and strong. Thank you beautiful, show me if your eyes.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Are on your eyes the job, Corey, that's masculine. Your
body looks great.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
A god.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Does it look too girly though? No, that does feel gurley.
I don't want you to look girly.
Speaker 6 (27:17):
I want you to look like a man.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Mind you. The last bit of tape you heard was
from a photo shoot where Corey was supposed to be
channeling Tyra's fierceness. He had photos of Tyra printed on
his nails. Corey told me, even though he peeped that
the show was going to make him their token gay guy,
he didn't think he was going to be criticized for
not being masculine enough. Historically, the industry is more inclusive
(27:40):
of queer men, and that might have to do with
the fact that the fashion world is pretty much run
by gay men. So Corey told me he was blindsided
by the feedback he got on A and TM and
he didn't agree with it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You're so feminine, Like they just wouldn't stop with that.
Speaker 12 (27:55):
They were like, if you want to be a male model,
you need to man up, mascot, like do all this bullshit. Okay,
I truthfully didn't know that that was coming.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Corey expected more from A and TM.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I'm not gonna say it didn't hurt.
Speaker 12 (28:11):
I'm not going to say my emotions weren't real, okay,
because they were. I was at the time going through
an entire identity crisis.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Today, Corey identifies as non binary and uses heat and
day pronouns. Back in twenty thirteen, when he was taping
A and TM, he identified as a gay man.
Speaker 12 (28:33):
You know, I knew that I was gay, but words
like non binary and gender queer they didn't really exist
at the time, and I was kind of like feeling
in an other space in terms of like just my
gender identity and being on a season of America's Next
Up Model where gender is such.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
A huge theme.
Speaker 12 (28:54):
Yeah, that definitely preyed on my emotional state, my mental state.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
It felt like my identity was being pried open.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
He went on that show to be famous, but being
on ANTM wasn't awakening for Corey.
Speaker 12 (29:10):
That's a fighter flight moment when you're on a judges
panel and you're being told you're too gay. That's a
fighter flight moment, and I think most people just want
to shrink from that moment and like disappear in a
puff of smoke.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
But he didn't. He pushed back when Rob Evans told
him he was too feminine, and he continued to serve
androgyny and femininity in the competition. He was the second
runner up on his season.
Speaker 12 (29:35):
I'm proud to have been able to stand ten toes
down and like have those conversations.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I was prompted.
Speaker 12 (29:41):
To just like meet that moment, and that you know,
that was the production team at whoever was pulling the
strings behind the seeds who put me in that position,
and the judges for saying all of the stupid things
they said about my femininity about being queer. That really
teed up just like a beautiful educational moment. And people
(30:05):
got mad online too, and people were like, wait a minute, No,
you shouldn't be criticizing him this way for these things,
like he's a model, You're not going to be able
to understand anything about his sexual orientation through a photograph.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Corey told me in a weird way, he's grateful to
A and TM. The show didn't make him a superstar,
but it did help him find his purpose.
Speaker 12 (30:27):
I was twenty two when we were filming that, Like,
my frontal cortex wasn't even fully developed, and there I
was in the center of such an important conversation. At
the time, I didn't know how big and important that was.
This was twenty thirteen when my cycle of America's Next
(30:47):
Up Model aired. We didn't even have marriage equality. I
was sparking so many conversations around the world about queer identity,
LGBTQA plus inclusivity. It was such a huge and impactful
thing that was bigger than me, and it wasn't even
what I was there for, but that was the thing
that made it make sense for me, and I think
(31:08):
that's what allowed me to come across as such like
a strong person on the shop. I really am proud
of how I came across on the show. If anybody remembers,
I was pretty pretty fierce these days.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Corey is an LGBTQ advocate and educator.
Speaker 12 (31:23):
This passion of mine to educate in this way was
born out of the first time I ever had to
publicly stand up for myself and speak truth to my
experience as an LGBTQI plus person while being criticized for
my queer identity on America's sexon Model.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
After A and TM, Corey says he kept in contact
with Tyra. She's actually recommended him for a few jobs.
He told me he'll always have respect for her and
the way she advocated for him on Cycle twenty. But
the choice of focus on his sexuality and gender expression
was a missed opportunity for A and TM to do
something transformative.
Speaker 12 (32:10):
As viewers of these shows, our ideology is being shaped
by what we see, even if it's on a subliminal level,
even if we don't realize it.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
You have so much power when you have a show
like that.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Corey wishes A and TM treated his queerness like it
was just another thing about him, instead of making it
his entire storyline. He thanks doing this could have normalized
homosexuality for a lot of viewers.
Speaker 12 (32:37):
That would have been so daring just to treat it
like it was nothing. Maybe then people watching would have
had less of like a oh, like such a tense
it's feeling around the idea that somebody loves differently expresses differently.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
After the break, We're going to talk about Ices King.
For millions of Americans, she was probably the first trans
woman they'd ever seen on television, but behind the scenes,
she was being treated like a spectacle. Isis King's inclusion
on A and TM Cycle eleven not only sparked a
(33:19):
huge conversation among the models on her season, it sparked
a huge conversation in America. Harris Tyra introducing Isis on
her talk show.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Never in the history of America's Next Top Model has
there ever been a finalist who was so controversial, so
talked about, and so blogged about. If you google her
name and top Model together, you get more than four
hundred thousand search results, almost a half a million search results.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I think you guys know who I'm talking about. Isis
struck her out? Is The fifth presence on ANTM was polarizing.
There were a lot of people who didn't think she
belonged on the show, and they were pretty nasty about it.
Here's a Fox News segment about Isis.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
She wants to be America's next Top Model, but there's
a hitch on this one that she actually used to
be he and I think still is.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
She tells or he tells US magazine that.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
She identifies herself as a woman born physically male.
Speaker 7 (34:21):
She's told you, guys, now, my cards were dealt differently.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
Boy, that's an understatement.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Fox later apologized after Glad reached out and told them
it was offensive, but that transphobic attitude was reflected in
the Model House. Sharon Brown, who you heard from a
few episodes ago, was on Cycle eleven with Isis. She's
the model who was sent home in the first elimination
after bullying Isis. Sharon told me the bullying we saw
(34:49):
her do was a bit of a setup by the producers,
but after Sharon left, things got uglier and much more pointed.
Speaker 9 (34:57):
I generally wouldn't hang out with characters like Alino, Sheena
or Isis because she's a transgender.
Speaker 6 (35:04):
Cannot push Isis, and I wasn't appreciated.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
On Cycle eleven. There were a few small town Southern
contestants who were uncomfortable with Isis being in the competition,
and they would say really nasty and even violent things
about Isis behind her back.
Speaker 9 (35:19):
Sometimes people have a more view of transitions.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, Like I always felt I'm.
Speaker 9 (35:23):
A like time of a small town Hell yeah, we
will Yeah, hell, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
You were growing back in a small town. You was shot.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I feel like I do very well in the real
world of modeling. I just don't see Isis being booked
because the way her body is now still very manly,
like the hand and the feet and the waste. I
think it's about time for Isis to go home. Wild's
just not for her. While those girls were whispering about Isis,
(35:53):
she was in another room talking with other contestants about
the way she was being treated.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
A lot of women found are intimidated.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Because you do girl better than most girls.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
Yeah, because I'm sorryful by myself.
Speaker 10 (36:07):
I don't try and think about whether I think it's
right or wrong what you're doing, because it's not my
choice to make for you.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Isis Is always gonna have people talking about her, and
she needs to just, you know, keep strong.
Speaker 11 (36:17):
Whatever I think, whatever you want.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
But when I'm for one, when I'm on that run way,
what do you want to say? You can't tell me,
not fans. I'm here for the long.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Run and you're one of us, Isizis.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
This was Isis's running storyline. A girl or group of
girls were mean and hateful to her. Isis stood up
to her bullies, rolls above it and moved on to
the next round until she was eliminated on episode five.
In later interviews, Isis said the bullying and bigotry she
faced on A and TM was about the same as
what she experienced in the real world at that time.
(36:52):
Outside of having to defend herself against a house full
of bigots over and over, Isis got a pretty good
at it. She wasn't underdog who proved her bullies wrong.
But what we didn't see was how the production team
pushed Isis's boundaries and set her up. Remember that cute
scene where she took her hormone shot while another contestant
helped distract her.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
She's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her and
I asked her, was she kind of helped distract me
while I'm giving myself the injection.
Speaker 9 (37:21):
It's something that means so much to her, and to
share that with there was quite a personal moment.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I thought. I took it as a huge compliment that
you asked me to be there, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
In the past few years, Isis opened up about the
real story behind this trailblazing moment. She says production manipulated her.
Here She is talking to j Manuel in his Jchat series.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
At the time, I was taking hormone injections, but right
before I left to do the show, I had to
give myself a hormone shot. I saw blood and I fainted.
So two weeks later, when I had to do my
next shot, I thanked it again. So I was in
a process of figuring out how to switch from shots
to pills because I just couldn't handle it when I
went on the show. So when I went on the show,
(38:07):
I knew that it's a chance I could faint, and
I was still so new to transitioning. I didn't want
to do that on camera. So I asked them, Hey,
when we do our next photoshoot, can the medic administer.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
My shot because we have medics on set.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Yeah, I said, of course, of course photoshoot came around.
Oh no, the medic can't do it today.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
I said.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Said the next day, when they were shooting, she was
told the same thing, the medic couldn't do it. She
says this went on for days. I said started to
get worried. She was new to transitioning and didn't know
what would happen if she missed a hormone shot, she said.
After a few days, she got a call on the
production phone. That's the house phone the producers use when
they want to relay a message to the contestants off camera.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
They call up, Hey, so the medic won't be able
to do your shot. And I was like, what do
you mean, no, medic can't do my shot? Like a
week ago, there was gonna do my shot, Like I
need to do it. They said, yeah, you have to
do your shot. Bring one of the girls to be
in there with you so you don't think And I
was just like, wow, see, I did not know that.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
You have never told me that ANTIM had a rule
about filming. If more than one girl was in the
shower or bathroom at the same time, the camera was
allowed to be in there too. The producers could have
stayed with Isis while she took her shot off camera
to make sure she didn't pass out and to call
the medic if she did, but instead they told her
(39:40):
to take another contestant with her to the bathroom.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
So I honestly didn't want to do it on camera,
one because I was scared I was gonna faint, and
then two, I just don't want to do it on
a fuck a camera. Me being trans in itself, that's
enough of an impact. I don't need to do a
hormone shot on camera.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I did not know the level of manipulation.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Am I going to say it surprises me?
Speaker 5 (40:05):
No?
Speaker 4 (40:06):
Uh, that I will say there was a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Maybe Tyra and Ken Mack thought having this moment would
be groundbreaking and powerful. According to j Manguel, they fought
for it to air.
Speaker 8 (40:18):
I have to give props to Tyra Ken Mock the producers.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
They really fought for this moment with the network. Maybe
Tyra and Ken knew it would make great TV, get
people talking, and bring in a lot of viewers, and
they were right. But telling Isis she could have the
medic administer her hormone shot and then pulling the rug
from under her at the last moment was wrong. If
they wanted to make this a part of her storyline,
(40:45):
she should have been the first person to sign off
on it, not to mention it put her health at risk.
Isis fainted at the sight of blood, and she'd already
passed out twice trying to self administer her hormone shot.
Auntiem turned what should have been a private moment into
rating spot her and it wasn't the last time they
(41:06):
tried to turn her experience into a spectacle. Isis said
during her season, the producers removed the door from the
bathroom and replace it with a curtain. Isis doesn't know
if they did it because of her or two of
the other models who would sneak in the bathroom and
have off camera conversations, but either way it made Isis
extremely uncomfortable. Here she is talking to Oliver Twist about
(41:29):
it on his YouTube channel.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
So at one point they took the doors off the
bathrooms and it was just like a little curtain air
but when you walk by it blows, and I was
just like, okay, I have these a bathroom. At the time,
I was just learning how to like take myself and
I was just learning these things, and I was just like,
I was like, why would they do that? Like when
you walk by it, you know, the breeze make the
(41:54):
curtain move, and I'm just like, somebody, calzy, you can't
not like you can open the curtain and see me
using a bathroom or be taking a shower. The showers
our clear glass, and in my head, like that was
one of the most terrifying things. You know, I wasn't
I didn't have a connection with my body in that sense,
so I didn't want anybody to see me. And I
was just like, I'm going to have a moment.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
By moment, Isis means she was afraid her body would
be exposed on camera. Remember, part of the contract, producers
could use footage of contestants clothed or naked, whether they
knew they were being taped or not. So Isis got
really conscious of when and where she would get dressed.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
So usually try to shower or do stuff at certain times,
or if I know I was going to do something
like outside the show, I was just like, let me
wait until the girls are loading up, because I just
don't want to have a moment where I'm trying to
do something to make myself feel comfortable and somebody walk in.
So I really hated that they took the doors off,
and they worded it like it was because the girls
they were going to shower to talk, because then you know,
(42:54):
and there you couldn't have a micro on. But they
didn't want us to really be around each other without mics.
So when a door orst came off the hinges, I
would say that was a moment for me when I
was just like, that's a little weird, especially you know,
for me, I don't want a special privilege, but I
at least want some type of privacy. So whenever I
even I took a shower, I would put my towel
over the top of the shower the glass, and I
(43:16):
would just take a shower in that block, so at
least as somebody did walk in, they wouldn't see me.
It's like little things that people didn't think about or
wouldn't think about.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
Antium wanted to bring a trans model into the competition.
They wanted the attention her presence would bring to the show.
They maybe even wanted to spark a conversation in normalized
trans identity, but they didn't facilitate a situation where Isis
could feel comfortable. They prioritize the story and the ratings
over the actual person. After Isis was eliminated, Tyra brought
(43:49):
her on her talk show to talk about being trans.
Isis's mom came with her and talked about her own
journey to accepting her daughter. Tyra even brought one of
the bullies you heard in the tape earlier. Have this
weird debate. The girl was trying to justify her right
to disagree with Isis even existing. At the end of
the segment, Tyra brought out the leading gender affirming surgeon
(44:11):
in the country, doctor Marcy Bowers. The surgeon told Isis
she wanted to do her gender affirming surgery and she
was going to arrange for it to be paid so
Isis didn't have to come up with the twenty five
to thirty thousand dollars herself.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
You have some news for Isis.
Speaker 13 (44:27):
What news do you have for Isis? Well, I just
want to say your story really touches my heart, and
I saw you actually first on MSNBC.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
I think, isn't it is that right?
Speaker 13 (44:36):
But I can relate to you, and I know what
difference that surgery can make in your life and improve
things for the better. So what I want to do
is evaluate you for the processes of going through the surgery,
and if I can get the money together, i'd like
you to come out, assuming you want me to do
your surgery.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
I want to do this for you.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Would you say this is not happening, This is not happening.
How do you feel it.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
Doesn't feel like it's like I'm about to wake up.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, I'm about the wake up. Thank you, You're welcome.
For Tyra, this was a story that kept on giving.
After her surgery, Tyra brought Isis, her mother, and the
surgeon back on her show to talk about the whole process,
and in my opinion, Tyra and the surgeon got a
(45:28):
little too personal.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Now I know, there's something called dilating that that isis
Is supposed to be doing.
Speaker 13 (45:34):
Explained dilating, Well, patients that have gone from male to
female need to keep the vagina open.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Because Isis's boyfriend, Desmond join them on stage for this segment.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
So is she dilating to be able to have sex?
Speaker 4 (45:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 13 (45:49):
What it is to keep the vagina open and to
allow potentially some action.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
So Desmond, are you over there going?
Speaker 5 (45:57):
Come on?
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Baby? You got to dilate.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
There's a weird dynamic that can creep into conversations about
trans people. I'm talking about the tendency for people to
ask really invasive personal questions that are frankly none of
their business. The questions are usually about sex, bodily functions,
and private body parts, questions people usually shy away from.
(46:21):
Sometimes it's from genuine curiosity and a desire to understand.
And there are some people who feel like education is
the first step to normalization and acceptance. But a lot
of times the line of questioning is just voyeuristic. Non
trans people are obsessed with trans people's bodies. I don't
know what Tyra was trying to accomplish here. It was
(46:43):
the twenty tens and conversations like these weren't exactly mainstream.
But there's something about watching these segments today that feels icky,
like Tyra was trying to make Isis a sideshow act.
I have a lot of complicated feelings about isis is
time on A and TM. I know it was groundbreaking,
(47:04):
but the way Tyra and A ANDTM went about presenting
ISIS seems wrong. I also know I have the benefit
of thinking about this almost twenty years after it aired.
Isis talked about this dynamic in an interview with Logo.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
We look at things in a different lens than now.
So when people say, oh, this shouldn't treated you like that,
it make me feel some type of way because I
didn't have that support back then. I didn't have people
come into my rescue. I just think that it's really
easy to point fingers now. I mean, obviously the stuff
was wrong, but we're in a different era and we
(47:40):
were obviously different people. We're way more I think as
a as a people way more sensitive to problematic shit.
So it's just hard to look at something back then
because if you didn't say nothing about it back then,
I don't say nothing now because y'all, Dave Showan wasn't
coming to my rescue.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
I was in this hell.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
I love to dress.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Nobody didn't come and throw me no life wrath did?
Speaker 9 (48:04):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Draam Isis seems to have mixed feelings about Tyra and
A and TM today and the interviews you heard earlier,
you can tell she was clearly uncomfortable with the behind
the scenes stunts A and TM pulled, but she also
seems grateful to Tyra and the show for the opportunity.
I mean, Tyra helped her get gender affirming surgery. Isis
(48:28):
also says the exposures she got from A and TM
changed her life.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
I would say, out of most of the girls, I
was just like one of the ones that benefited the
most from the show.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Isis is a queer icon. She's one of the most
famous trans people in America. She's an activist, speaker, and actress.
But being on the show didn't just change her life,
it changed the lives of so many queer people watching her.
I'm not exaggerating when I say seeing Isis on TV
was a lifeline. Multiple viewers have reached out to Isis
(49:02):
to tell her what her representation on A and TM
meant to them.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
A month or two after I got eliminated, this young
gay kid sent me a message and said I was
about to commit suicide and seeing your story helped me
realize there was a light at the end of the tunnel.
And I remember crying and being like, oh snop, Like
this is so much bigger than just my moment.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
And she's still inspiring a new generation of queer viewers
who are just discovering A and TM. I don't know
if she would have accomplished all this without the show,
or if her casting would have had such a huge
impact had top Model decided to do it later when
people were more comfortable with transidentity. But being a pioneer
(49:44):
often comes with a cost. And while I can say
A and TM played a pivotal role in changing attitudes
towards queer people in pop culture, it seems like the
contestants are the ones who bore that cost. They got
the hate messages, they had to defend themselves against their castmates,
they had to explain their identity to the judges and
(50:05):
face criticism for just being them. With all that in mind,
I asked Corey Wade what he thinks A and TM's
legacy is when it comes to queer representation.
Speaker 12 (50:19):
I do think they found some really, really amazing queer
representatives on that show who, just like I believe I did,
met those moments with grace. I just think we need
to give Isis her flowers. I'm so grateful that people
like this exist and have been uplifted to this platform.
(50:39):
There's a lot of beauty in what America's Next Time
Model has done.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
For all its failings. In many ways, this was one
thing A and TM got right, but for contestants like Corey,
it's still complicated.
Speaker 12 (50:52):
I feel so many different ways about this. I'm proud,
but I'm angry, but I understand. I'm angry, but I'm grateful.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
On the next episode, we finally tackle one of America's
Next Top models biggest sins. We're going to talk about
the body shaming and mixed messages about eating disorders that
became synonymous with the show. She's huge, She's not going
to be a top mom.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
My biggest problem is the body shape. I thank you.
I wouldn't want to see her in the swimsuit. You
gotta work on the side.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
Her body is just doing what's all.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
It's all going passhaped.
Speaker 6 (51:26):
That is what you're finis.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
We reached out to Tyra Banks and A and TM
executive producer Ken Mock so they could provide more perspective
on isis King's time on A and TM and Tyra's
talk show and what we've discussed on this episode, but
we did not hear back from them before airing this episode.
Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.
We're grateful for your support. We'd love for you to
(51:55):
really show your support by subscribing to our show on
Apple Podcast. Don't forget to give us a five star review.
If you love the show, tell your group, chat, your friends,
your mama to check us out, and if you don't,
maybe keep that one to yourself. The Curse of America's
Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcast, a
(52:16):
division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcast.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and
senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is
Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.
Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcy, and Curry Richmond.
(52:36):
Consulting producers on this podcast are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor.
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio
editing on this episode by Matt del Vecchio, Andrew Callaway
and Tanner Robbins. The Curse of America's Next Top Model
theme was composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by
my Music Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed, especially the
(52:58):
former contestants, and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
Also check out the Etglass Podcast Instagram for Curse of
America's Nextop Model behind the scenes content.
This girl is absolutely amazing. She's got to come back
from America's sex top model.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I said this girl, and.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
My staff said, Tira, there's something a little different about
that girl. So what's different about that girl?
Speaker 3 (00:11):
In two thousand and eight, Isis King made America's next
top model history.
Speaker 4 (00:16):
I was born physically male, but mentally everything else I
was born female. Some people might say that I'm a transgender,
some people might say transsexuals. Personally, I prefer born on
a wrong body, meaning I was born physically male on
the outside, but everything else about me was female.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Isis was the first out trans contestant on A and TM.
For a lot of viewers, this was their first time
seeing a trans person on a reality show talking so
openly about their identity.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Tell me about when you knew that you were a
girl as long as I can remember, It's not something
I've chose. This is who always been.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And of course Tyra got real personal, real quick.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
So let's talk about surgery. Are you pre top TRANSGENDERO?
Speaker 5 (00:59):
Pre op?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
And do you want to have the surgery one day?
Speaker 6 (01:02):
If I could have it?
Speaker 7 (01:03):
Right?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Nown on?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
What Isis had a hell of a story. On cycle ten,
the models did a shoot where they were supposed to
serve homeless shekh you know, living on the streets, but
make it fashion. A and TM used actual people experiencing homelessness.
It's extras. In the shute, Isis was living at the shelter.
A ANDTM partnered with you were.
Speaker 8 (01:24):
One of the girls from the shelter who participated in
our shoot in the background as an extra. Let's face it,
there's a reason you're here because you know how to
give me catoul and yes, there we go.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
It blew me away.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
She slay better than some of the actual A and
TM models, So Tyra cast her on the next season,
cycle eleven. You know she loves her at Cinderella Story
and from the moment Isis walked on the set, she
had to face some evil stepsisters.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So Isis.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I thought she looked little manly, like I have small
boobs too, but her boobs she has no boobs. So
I told her to come over here. We're like, come here.
You know you're part of the any bitty committee, So
y'all want to figure me out, right, y'all want to
figure me out. During the audition, Isis was minding her
business when a group of girls called her over to
(02:13):
ask why her boobs were so small? Wait to tap
dance around the question, so true.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Are you physically.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Without wanting on of What started out is caddy curiosity
quickly turned mean spirited and bigoted. My mind was like,
what girl? How'd you Ain't this supposed to be a
girl competition?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
How did you get through the door? Like you up?
Speaker 7 (02:41):
If I have get along with Isis, I will, But
then again, if it comes between me and my goal,
I'll stop.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Let man write out of the competition. And this was
just during the auditions. Once Isis made it into the house,
things got worse.
Speaker 7 (02:58):
I'm not gonna lie me uncomfortable as hell. Olena brings
me out that when she got something else different down
there than me.
Speaker 9 (03:05):
I could think the thing about Isis so is Like
I was like trying to convince myself I was comfortable,
like Henry, Henry un comfortable, but really I'm not. Sometimes
people have a more view of transition.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, like I always felt I'm a.
Speaker 9 (03:16):
Like time of a small town.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Hell yeah, we won't want yoh you hell yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:21):
You were growing back in a small town. You was shot.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
But not everyone was terrible. There were a few girls
who were welcoming and supportive of Isis.
Speaker 10 (03:29):
Now that person shot I mean before this competition is
going to bear gosh mad and is your spirit and
how much she wants to be for Isis to be
so brave and so secure with who she is and
being able to not let anything bother her. It's very commendable.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Isis made a few friends, and she found girls she
could trust with her most private moments. Isis had just
started transitioning before cycle eleven. She was new to taking
hormone injections. She didn't want to do it alone, so
she asked another contestant, Annalie Tipton, to keep her company.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
In order to keep up my transition, I have to
take hormonal injections. Are you heard of needles? Gnia tell
Annalie she's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her
and I asked her was. She kind of helped distract
me while I'm giving myself the injection.
Speaker 7 (04:18):
They can make superfaces for you.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I'm nky, I knew I mean chicken impression.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
She's had me laughing and made it a lot easier
for me. Now I'm starting to get like Nausha's damn.
Speaker 9 (04:31):
It's something that means so much to her and to
share that with there was quite a personal moment.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I thought.
Speaker 9 (04:36):
I took it as a huge compliment that you asked
me to be there, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
It looked like a sweet moment. Years after A and
tum Annalie came out as non binary. Today they go
by Leo, But in two thousand and eight, there was
barely any public conversation about trans identity. When there was,
trans people were the butt of the joke or met
with fear and disdain. Seeing ices take our hormone injection
(05:04):
on camera was groundbreaking. Producers presented isis in a way
that humanized her struggle. The audience saw the ridicule she
faced from the other girls, and we saw her dedication
to transitioning. It sent the message that trans people aren't
confused about their gender. They're people who are willing to
go to great lengths to affirm their gender. It was
(05:26):
a big deal for this to happen on broadcast television,
and it's a moment that seared into the memory of
a lot of queer people. It might be hard to
remember these days, but A and TM was actually a
pioneer in queer representation. In two thousand and five the
queer feminist website after Ellen called A and TM the
(05:47):
queerest place in primetime. But the problem was those groundbreaking
moments often came at the expense of the queer contestants themselves,
Like that sweet moment where Isis took her hormone shot.
She says she didn't want to do it. According to
Isis and TM producers deceived her into doing it on camera.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Want to be on some.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm
Rigid Armstrong. America's Next Top Model stands out as a
pioneer in LGBTQ representation, But like everything with this show,
the way they treated those representatives was complicated, in part
(06:39):
because A and TIM was always thinking about the story,
not necessarily the contestants. The impact of the decision to
cast Isis King can't be measured. It was pivotal for
so many trans viewers who'd never seen positive portrayals of
people like them. Isis was a symbol of what's possible.
(06:59):
But behind the scenes, Isis felt like A ANDTM was
trying to make her a spectacle. When A and TM
went co ed on cycle twenty, they cast a gender
fluid gay man before those terms were even mainstream. He
challenged the idea that male models must be overtly masculine,
and he had to because the judges constantly chastised him
(07:21):
for being too feminine. But A and TM is also
the show that gave us iconic queer judges Jay Manuel Nole, Marin,
j Alexander or Miss Jay and later Andre Leon Tally
and law Roach. It's a show that featured an openly
lesbian contestant on season one and highlighted her loving relationship.
It's a show that featured queer and gender fluid contestants
(07:44):
from the beginning until the end. So on this episode,
we're going to take a look at everything A and
TM got right and wrong when it comes to gender
and sexual identity. We'll explore how they broke barriers and
changed the world while harming the very contestants they were
changing the world for.
Speaker 7 (08:06):
Hi might go to school at Wesleyan University, which is
in Connecticut.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
We're at the Cycle five auditions and a contestant named
Kim Stoles just entered the competition. She's rocking a v
Nex sweater over a tie and button up shirt, collar
popped very preppy very two thousand and five. At this point,
you've heard me say this a lot because we're talking
about a modeling show and everyone's pretty. But Kim was
(08:31):
gorgeous when it came to her face card. She was
a classic beauty, or at least that's what I think
white people mean when they say that her mom was
a high fashion model in the eighties. That's probably where
she got her looks from. Kim had a short, dark
brown pixie cut in doe green eyes. Her haircut combined
with her cutesy face kind of made her look like
(08:52):
a baby doll. But something about Kim made her stand
out for the rest of the girls, and it wasn't
just her beauty.
Speaker 7 (09:01):
To be honest with you, like, I think I can
bring something different to modeling, and I've got a little
bit more of a I don't want to say masculine,
but I'm as well mas killing luck whatever who I
want to be out like, I'm gay and I am
I'm really proud of it.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I think this a certain thing of being proud, like
I'm black and proud, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
But I'm not like walking down the red carpet. I'm right,
I'm an pro.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
You know, one thing about Tyra Banks, She's gonna make
a moment about herself.
Speaker 7 (09:26):
I'm certainly not gonna, like, you know, walk down the
red car and like try to kiss girls on the way.
You know, It's like not what I'm gonna do.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Kim wasn't the first contestant who was openly queer on
the show. We talked about ebonye Haight from cycle one,
Michelle Dayton from cycle four was bisexual, and there are
other models who came out after the show. I will
say this about A and TM after cycle one. They
rarely explored storylines about a contestant's discomfort with another contestant sexuality.
(09:53):
Maybe it was a reflection of society's growing acceptance. So
unlike Ebony on season one, Kim didn't seem to face
any criticism from the other models simply because she was gay.
In fact, several of them seemed quite curious. Kim even
had a little fleeing in the house with another model,
despite Kim having a girlfriend. Are you are you full
(10:13):
on lesbian?
Speaker 7 (10:14):
I mean you're not by or I only did girls. Yeah,
a lot of these girls, I don't know anyone like
who is gay and like it's like kind of exciting
for them. But I mean, I miss my girlfriend from home,
and like I'm in like an open relationship, but I
don't plan on acting on that.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
She definitely acted on it.
Speaker 7 (10:33):
We're oven right now and she can make out the
until she wants. I don't care as long as like
she wants to pens I get back.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, that was probably ridiculous.
Speaker 7 (10:38):
Hopefully's ridiculous because I'm ring hit on its crazy.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I'll hang out with you, Kim.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Kim identified as a lesbian, but she was still figuring
out her gender expression. This was two thousand and five,
before terms like non binary or gender fluid were widely accepted.
With the judges, it wasn't Kim's sexuality they focused on.
It was what they saw as her lack of femininity.
On the first runway of the season, the models had
(11:06):
to do their own makeup. Kim had never worn makeup.
The models wore cocktail dresses and heels and had to
walk down this oddly shaped runway. It was meant to
be confusing, and let's just say a lot of the
walks were not good, including Kim's. Here's what the judges
told her.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Next, we have Kim.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Oh no, oh, what was the neck?
Speaker 7 (11:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
You're trying to be something that you're not. You're trying
to be so sexy and so girly and you look
like a man in a dress.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Girl.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
You just need to go with your strong masculinity. That's
what brought you here.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
They put Kim in a cocktail dress, heels and makeup
and then chastise her for trying to be girly. But fine.
It was the first episode, and at least Tyra encouraged
him to embrace her androgyny to be herself, but that
encouragement did not last long. Kim got a lot of
mixed messages from the panel. When she tried to be herself,
(12:01):
she was told she was too masculine. When she pushed
herself to be more feminine, the judges seemed surprised and delighted.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Your film shocked the hell out of me. This is
so like beyond feminine. It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
If you just showed me that, I wouldn't have known
that was Kim. She she likes a Ketchersmith, look at those paws.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
One time. Nigel Barker even made a joke out of
calling her Tim instead of Kim.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I would never believe it's the same person.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
And I think this is a turning point for Tim. Tim,
you sure did.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I saw that Kim by day, Tim by night.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I actually think she's hot, hot, hot, hot hot, which
means I'm getting in touch with my androgynous feminine side.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Maybe I'm not really sure.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Kim got a lot of contradicting messages from the judges
when it came to her gender expression.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Kim, he learned, how did do all that feminine stuff?
But today I asked for a signature walk, Kim, I
asked for you today.
Speaker 7 (12:55):
I'm constantly trying to figure out what my gender is.
That's hard in life, in this competition, every day, all
the time.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I suggest that you get some male fashion magazines, because
when men model, they're slightly feminine, right. You can learn
from looking at that as well as female magazines.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
A PM did bring supermodel Jenny Smith to the house
to talk to the girls. Jenny was queer and gender
non conforming. She talked to the models about finding their
own lane in fashion.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
My big story is that a minority, I am five
foot seven, I have a lot of tattoos, and a
gay model.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Kim theemed especially inspired.
Speaker 7 (13:32):
It's really an important thing for me to see not
conforming to just a generalized kind of woman.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
I've always been a tomboy, and I wanted to tell
you guys that the differences in modeling are actually beautiful things.
Speaker 7 (13:43):
Are you saying a tomboy? And so I was wondering,
like in terms of wearing like really feminine clothing like
on the runway, I'm wondering how you reconcile or make like,
you know, a dress like beautiful.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
I take it as that's a piece of art that
I'm going to wear. There's always room for someone who's
going to add flair to fashion.
Speaker 7 (13:59):
Jenny's struggle is a lot like what I'm going through. Now.
This gives me hope that I can get farther.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
But even after that visit from Jenny'smezo and that pep
talk about being yourself, the judges were hard on Kim,
which might seem odd for a show like A and TM.
When it premiered, it featured two queer men as central
members of the cast, Mister and Miss j. They later
added Nole Marin as a judge who was also queer.
(14:25):
They had several queer guest judges and Miss J was
gender fluid before anybody was calling it that. He was
a runway coach for years and he'd been wearing fabulous
dresses and heels on the set of ANTM since Cycle Ie.
One time, Kim actually called out the contradiction of Miss
J being the one to criticize her gender expression. The
girls were asked to do their best signature runway walks
(14:48):
for Miss J. They were at a pool and for
some reason, Miss J brought all these church lady hats
and told them to make the hats a part of
their walk. When it was Kim's turn, Miss Jay was
already prepared for the worst. This to be real special
because you are special.
Speaker 7 (15:05):
I want to try to put my own personality into it,
but also having a feminine flair, and it's just difficult
for me.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
It's a marionette for doctor strings. Kim's walk was awkward.
She had on this afternoon tea outfit, but she was
also trying to strut like a male model. The church
hat wasn't helping. Campbell has an incredible face.
Speaker 6 (15:27):
She should be able to do any really well, but
unfortunately don't have five years.
Speaker 7 (15:31):
I need to somehow bring my masculinity and femininity into
the walk.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I lost words usually have something to say. I am
really lost for words.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
If anyone should understand a difference of gender expression, she
should be the one.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I mean, are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
There's a lot of queer representation in the fashion industry.
People aren't surprised to see a gay male designer, stylist,
makeup artist, or runway coach, but for models sometimes it's different.
These days, the industry has become more inclusive of different
gender expression, but in two thousand and five, there was
an idea that female models needed to embody femininity, and
(16:14):
while A ANDTM embraced queer contestants and judges on the show,
they also upheld the notion that contestants need to conform
to certain gender norms. It's a dynamic room, Longoria saw
when they competed on cycle sixteen. When they were on
A ANDTM, the show identified them as being polyhamorous, although
at the time they identified as being bisexual. After the show,
(16:38):
Room came out as non binary. Here they are talking
with Oliver Twigs on his YouTube channel.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Quite a few have said that they were openly queer
during filming, but.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I'm never made it on the show, it was brushed aside.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 11 (16:52):
I mean, especially like in that era of television, like
you were allowed to be gay in a way that
made sense to the people that were going to be
watching it.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Like I'm pretty sure I talked about.
Speaker 11 (17:06):
The gender spectrum and feeling like I swung around on
it and stuff. But yes, I agree that they do
tend to hide things that are difficult to understand and
show support for.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
A and TM included queer contestants, but they only showed
the parts that would fit into a storyline, and it
needed to be a storyline the show thought their audience
would understand. Some queer contestants say their gender and sexuality
wasn't mentioned at all, while others had their whole storyline
built around it, like Kim on cycle five. Her entire
(17:39):
character arc was about how she was a masculine lesbian
struggling to become feminine enough to model. I don't want
to downplay the decision to cast Kim Stoles on season five.
For A and TM's young, mostly female audience, it was
pretty cool to see an openly lesbian woman who described
herself as masculine on a modeling competition for young women
(18:00):
who may have been questioning their own sexuality. Kim was
an example of how to be out and proud. Also,
Kim was beautiful, so beautiful she was chosen to be
on a modeling competition, which contradicted the idea that so
called masculine lesbians are unattractive. Kim talked about her struggle
with gender norms and figuring where she fit in. Seeing
(18:22):
that struggle on A ANDTM was huge for a lot
of queer young people watching at home who may have
been going through the same thing, but they saw that
struggle play out because she was on a reality show
that was pressuring her to be more feminine. Fifteen seasons later,
A ANDTM cast its first openly gay male contestant when
(18:42):
the show went co ed, But according to him, at
least when it came to gender expression, the show hadn't
learned much.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
It's two feminine if we can tell them the same
thing week off the week.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
We'll get into that after the break.
Speaker 12 (19:00):
The second that I understood that they were really trying
to centralize my queer identity and really just like diminish
my whole persona and my whole identity to just one
character trait and that is my gainness. I definitely took
those cues and I ran with it.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Corey Wade was a contestant on A and TM cycle
twenty or two point zero as they were calling it.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
It was the.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
First guy girl season. A and TM did three co
ed cycles. Corey was the first openly gay man on
A and TM. His presence on the show was an
opportunity to explore a new trope. Corey was there token
gay guy. He figured out what the show wanted from
him during the auditions, and he decided to go along
(19:47):
with it.
Speaker 6 (19:49):
These men are nothing but eye candy to me. It's
psychological warfare. Honey, comminance is key, Honey. Anything you'll do, boo,
do it with confidence.
Speaker 12 (20:00):
I definitely took it and I ran with it.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
I'm not going to say it didn't hurt.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Corey is probably the most clear eyed contestant I spoke with,
maybe because he was on a later season. It was
twenty thirteen and A ANDTM had been running for ten
years at this point. He told me he had no
illusions about how reality TV works. He didn't think A
ANDTM was going to make him a top model. He
auditioned for the show because he wanted exposure. Corey wanted
(20:28):
to be a star.
Speaker 12 (20:29):
If I look back to twenty two year old Corey
auditioning for America's Sexu Model, my mission at that point
in time, it was very like vapid and hollow. I
just wanted to be famous, like I didn't care how.
I just wanted to do it. Did I think that
this was going to like make me into a supermodel
like Bella and Gigi Headeed's status.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
No, I don't think I was ever.
Speaker 12 (20:52):
Delusional about that, to be honest with you. But I
did know that it was going to get my name
out there. I did know that I was in pursuit
of a career in entertainment.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
At the time, Corey was a musical theater actor performing
in regional plays. He thought getting on A and TM
would help his entertainment career. Plus, he'd been a huge
Top Model fan growing.
Speaker 12 (21:15):
Up when I was in middle school. Oh my gosh,
that was like my world. I loved America's accept Model.
I was obsessed like doing like after school hangouts with
girlfriends and like perching around the TV and getting ready
for the next episode.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
That was my life.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
He idolized Tyra. In fact, When Corey was bullied in
high school, the other kids called him Tyra is in
Tyra Banks, and it wasn't a compliment, but he took
it as one.
Speaker 12 (21:42):
Tira, you know, growing up, I was kind of like
obsessed with her and her talk show and just enamored
by her career trajectory and just everything that she stood
for promoting body positivity, having opened the LGBTQI plus people
on her talk show and not in a way that
was kind of like demeaning.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
I know, I've taken some shots at Tyro's talk show
on this podcast, but Corey's right. This was the time
when talk shows were still doing surprise I'm really a
man dating reveal segments, So in comparison, both Tyro's talk
show and A and TM were progressive.
Speaker 12 (22:15):
She would uplift them and hear their stories and advocate
for them at a time where that wasn't really popular.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Corey also admired the queer representation he saw on A
and TM. It had been pivotal for him as a
queer teenager.
Speaker 12 (22:30):
I look back at Isis specifically, and I see this
like warrior of truth. And she went back and did
the All Star cycle and slay that as well, and
then you look at representatives like on the judges panel,
like Miss J Alexander, who is just this like godess
and just like who like free expression but you can't
(22:50):
tell me nothing queer off the beaten path, visibly queer,
but you can't tell me not.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Then by the time Corey auditioned for A and TM
Jay Manuel and Miss J Alexander had been replaced. There
was an entirely new panel of judges. Corey was disappointed.
He was looking forward to meeting the queer icon Miss Jay.
He felt Miss J would get him.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I wanted Misster Alexander to be on my judges panel.
I was missing that.
Speaker 12 (23:22):
Slamboyant just like ooh, real, raw, unapologetic gay personality just there.
I missed it and I didn't get it. And they
tried to like half ass a version of that by
having Brian Boy on our show.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
But he tried not to let that get him down.
He was going to be on the show that he
loved as a kid, a show that cast isis King
and Miss J. Corey went in expecting his queerness to
be celebrated or at the very least accepted, so he
was caught off guard. At the first judging panel of
the season.
Speaker 12 (24:00):
Like, oh my gosh, you look very very feminine in
this photo. Come to think that you present very feminine,
and you know what, you dressed very feminine. You talk
very feminine and femininely, like everything is feminine.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
The first photo shoot of the season was a wedding shoe.
Corey was posing as the groom alongside one of the
female models Smoke.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
When I found out I was paired with Corey, I
was scared because the most challenging part is.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Going to be, like Corey being masculine.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I just want to point out in this shoe there
was a gay wedding, a lesbian wedding, a polygamy wedding,
and one guy married a remote control so gender roles
didn't seem that critical to the shoes. But here's the
feedback Corey got from one of the judges. Corey, were
you playing a guy or a woman in the shot?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I was playing a guy.
Speaker 6 (24:44):
Okay, you're gonna have to work your stray guye a
little more.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
I agree with Kelly, you're not selling a complete palastamm
in this fire.
Speaker 6 (24:50):
I think this picture of you is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
I don't see an epic fail, smizing you're piercing the camera.
I'm gonna give you that was Tyr you heard at
the end, and I will say. By the time Corey
competed on the show, Tyra seemed a bit more evolved.
She advocated for Corey in his femininity a lot on
this season. One of the newer judges brought in for
the co ed season was a straight male model named
(25:13):
Rob Evans. Rob was rumored to be dating Tyra at
this time, and when it came to Corey, he completely
disagreed with his alleged lover.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I don't particularly like this far that much. Was It's
two feminine.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
We've been tell him the same thing week after weekend.
He just gets.
Speaker 10 (25:30):
Brainwashed by YouTube every single time.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Brain washed.
Speaker 12 (25:33):
If he come into a place like presenting yourself the
way you do, they will think you're the makeupartes.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Tyra and Kelly Catron, the other female judge on this season,
didn't back down from Rob, and neither did Corey.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Depends on the friend, I'm coming at you as a
male model.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
I hear right now this and can I speak of
this actually?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Please go on?
Speaker 6 (25:51):
I really really love to work by androgeny when my
passion for modeling, you know, developed, and when it actually sparked.
It's when I started seeing pictures of people you know,
who were more intros AND's, And in the past few
years more of that has been coming out to the forefront.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
What's gonna happen?
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Corey gave a heartfelt explanation that should have taken the
attention off his so called lack of masculinity, but instead
it made Rob Evans focus on it more. For Rob,
the barometer for how well Corey performed in a runway
or photoshoot was how masculine he could be. Choreer, I
like this shout of you.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
It's very dude.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
If I didn't know any better, you pull off a
due to me and good job, min.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I'm prony he is a dude.
Speaker 6 (26:29):
You look like a man.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
What shall I say? No, he is a man?
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Okay? I think you look straight in this? Yikes? Is
that meant to be a compliment? Corey? The thing about
you always know how to sell what you were, and
I that you have to tell you.
Speaker 7 (26:43):
Look more money more.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It's just that's what you're delivering.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Good job, thanks, But it wasn't just Rob. Corey also
got it from photographers.
Speaker 12 (26:50):
Oh, Corey, that's this gay halls, Corey, moose in quite
a feminine right, and as a male model, you really
have to appeal to men change.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
You got to have a good right, right, he'd laws
and strong. Thank you beautiful, show me if your eyes.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Are on your eyes the job, Corey, that's masculine. Your
body looks great.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
A god.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Does it look too girly though? No, that does feel gurley.
I don't want you to look girly.
Speaker 6 (27:17):
I want you to look like a man.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Mind you. The last bit of tape you heard was
from a photo shoot where Corey was supposed to be
channeling Tyra's fierceness. He had photos of Tyra printed on
his nails. Corey told me, even though he peeped that
the show was going to make him their token gay guy,
he didn't think he was going to be criticized for
not being masculine enough. Historically, the industry is more inclusive
(27:40):
of queer men, and that might have to do with
the fact that the fashion world is pretty much run
by gay men. So Corey told me he was blindsided
by the feedback he got on A and TM and
he didn't agree with it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You're so feminine, Like they just wouldn't stop with that.
Speaker 12 (27:55):
They were like, if you want to be a male model,
you need to man up, mascot, like do all this bullshit. Okay,
I truthfully didn't know that that was coming.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Corey expected more from A and TM.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I'm not gonna say it didn't hurt.
Speaker 12 (28:11):
I'm not going to say my emotions weren't real, okay,
because they were. I was at the time going through
an entire identity crisis.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Today, Corey identifies as non binary and uses heat and
day pronouns. Back in twenty thirteen, when he was taping
A and TM, he identified as a gay man.
Speaker 12 (28:33):
You know, I knew that I was gay, but words
like non binary and gender queer they didn't really exist
at the time, and I was kind of like feeling
in an other space in terms of like just my
gender identity and being on a season of America's Next
Up Model where gender is such.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
A huge theme.
Speaker 12 (28:54):
Yeah, that definitely preyed on my emotional state, my mental state.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
It felt like my identity was being pried open.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
He went on that show to be famous, but being
on ANTM wasn't awakening for Corey.
Speaker 12 (29:10):
That's a fighter flight moment when you're on a judges
panel and you're being told you're too gay. That's a
fighter flight moment, and I think most people just want
to shrink from that moment and like disappear in a
puff of smoke.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
But he didn't. He pushed back when Rob Evans told
him he was too feminine, and he continued to serve
androgyny and femininity in the competition. He was the second
runner up on his season.
Speaker 12 (29:35):
I'm proud to have been able to stand ten toes
down and like have those conversations.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I was prompted.
Speaker 12 (29:41):
To just like meet that moment, and that you know,
that was the production team at whoever was pulling the
strings behind the seeds who put me in that position,
and the judges for saying all of the stupid things
they said about my femininity about being queer. That really
teed up just like a beautiful educational moment. And people
(30:05):
got mad online too, and people were like, wait a minute, No,
you shouldn't be criticizing him this way for these things,
like he's a model, You're not going to be able
to understand anything about his sexual orientation through a photograph.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Corey told me in a weird way, he's grateful to
A and TM. The show didn't make him a superstar,
but it did help him find his purpose.
Speaker 12 (30:27):
I was twenty two when we were filming that, Like,
my frontal cortex wasn't even fully developed, and there I
was in the center of such an important conversation. At
the time, I didn't know how big and important that was.
This was twenty thirteen when my cycle of America's Next
(30:47):
Up Model aired. We didn't even have marriage equality. I
was sparking so many conversations around the world about queer identity,
LGBTQA plus inclusivity. It was such a huge and impactful
thing that was bigger than me, and it wasn't even
what I was there for, but that was the thing
that made it make sense for me, and I think
(31:08):
that's what allowed me to come across as such like
a strong person on the shop. I really am proud
of how I came across on the show. If anybody remembers,
I was pretty pretty fierce these days.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
Corey is an LGBTQ advocate and educator.
Speaker 12 (31:23):
This passion of mine to educate in this way was
born out of the first time I ever had to
publicly stand up for myself and speak truth to my
experience as an LGBTQI plus person while being criticized for
my queer identity on America's sexon Model.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
After A and TM, Corey says he kept in contact
with Tyra. She's actually recommended him for a few jobs.
He told me he'll always have respect for her and
the way she advocated for him on Cycle twenty. But
the choice of focus on his sexuality and gender expression
was a missed opportunity for A and TM to do
something transformative.
Speaker 12 (32:10):
As viewers of these shows, our ideology is being shaped
by what we see, even if it's on a subliminal level,
even if we don't realize it.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
You have so much power when you have a show
like that.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Corey wishes A and TM treated his queerness like it
was just another thing about him, instead of making it
his entire storyline. He thanks doing this could have normalized
homosexuality for a lot of viewers.
Speaker 12 (32:37):
That would have been so daring just to treat it
like it was nothing. Maybe then people watching would have
had less of like a oh, like such a tense
it's feeling around the idea that somebody loves differently expresses differently.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
After the break, We're going to talk about Ices King.
For millions of Americans, she was probably the first trans
woman they'd ever seen on television, but behind the scenes,
she was being treated like a spectacle. Isis King's inclusion
on A and TM Cycle eleven not only sparked a
(33:19):
huge conversation among the models on her season, it sparked
a huge conversation in America. Harris Tyra introducing Isis on
her talk show.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Never in the history of America's Next Top Model has
there ever been a finalist who was so controversial, so
talked about, and so blogged about. If you google her
name and top Model together, you get more than four
hundred thousand search results, almost a half a million search results.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
I think you guys know who I'm talking about. Isis
struck her out? Is The fifth presence on ANTM was polarizing.
There were a lot of people who didn't think she
belonged on the show, and they were pretty nasty about it.
Here's a Fox News segment about Isis.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
She wants to be America's next Top Model, but there's
a hitch on this one that she actually used to
be he and I think still is.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
She tells or he tells US magazine that.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
She identifies herself as a woman born physically male.
Speaker 7 (34:21):
She's told you, guys, now, my cards were dealt differently.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
Boy, that's an understatement.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Fox later apologized after Glad reached out and told them
it was offensive, but that transphobic attitude was reflected in
the Model House. Sharon Brown, who you heard from a
few episodes ago, was on Cycle eleven with Isis. She's
the model who was sent home in the first elimination
after bullying Isis. Sharon told me the bullying we saw
(34:49):
her do was a bit of a setup by the producers,
but after Sharon left, things got uglier and much more pointed.
Speaker 9 (34:57):
I generally wouldn't hang out with characters like Alino, Sheena
or Isis because she's a transgender.
Speaker 6 (35:04):
Cannot push Isis, and I wasn't appreciated.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
On Cycle eleven. There were a few small town Southern
contestants who were uncomfortable with Isis being in the competition,
and they would say really nasty and even violent things
about Isis behind her back.
Speaker 9 (35:19):
Sometimes people have a more view of transitions.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, Like I always felt I'm.
Speaker 9 (35:23):
A like time of a small town Hell yeah, we
will Yeah, hell, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
You were growing back in a small town. You was shot.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I feel like I do very well in the real
world of modeling. I just don't see Isis being booked
because the way her body is now still very manly,
like the hand and the feet and the waste. I
think it's about time for Isis to go home. Wild's
just not for her. While those girls were whispering about Isis,
(35:53):
she was in another room talking with other contestants about
the way she was being treated.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
A lot of women found are intimidated.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Because you do girl better than most girls.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
Yeah, because I'm sorryful by myself.
Speaker 10 (36:07):
I don't try and think about whether I think it's
right or wrong what you're doing, because it's not my
choice to make for you.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Isis Is always gonna have people talking about her, and
she needs to just, you know, keep strong.
Speaker 11 (36:17):
Whatever I think, whatever you want.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
But when I'm for one, when I'm on that run way,
what do you want to say? You can't tell me,
not fans. I'm here for the long.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Run and you're one of us, Isizis.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
This was Isis's running storyline. A girl or group of
girls were mean and hateful to her. Isis stood up
to her bullies, rolls above it and moved on to
the next round until she was eliminated on episode five.
In later interviews, Isis said the bullying and bigotry she
faced on A and TM was about the same as
what she experienced in the real world at that time.
(36:52):
Outside of having to defend herself against a house full
of bigots over and over, Isis got a pretty good
at it. She wasn't underdog who proved her bullies wrong.
But what we didn't see was how the production team
pushed Isis's boundaries and set her up. Remember that cute
scene where she took her hormone shot while another contestant
helped distract her.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
She's somebody who's really cool. So I saw her and
I asked her, was she kind of helped distract me
while I'm giving myself the injection.
Speaker 9 (37:21):
It's something that means so much to her, and to
share that with there was quite a personal moment.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I thought. I took it as a huge compliment that
you asked me to be there, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
In the past few years, Isis opened up about the
real story behind this trailblazing moment. She says production manipulated her.
Here She is talking to j Manuel in his Jchat series.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
At the time, I was taking hormone injections, but right
before I left to do the show, I had to
give myself a hormone shot. I saw blood and I fainted.
So two weeks later, when I had to do my
next shot, I thanked it again. So I was in
a process of figuring out how to switch from shots
to pills because I just couldn't handle it when I
went on the show. So when I went on the show,
(38:07):
I knew that it's a chance I could faint, and
I was still so new to transitioning. I didn't want
to do that on camera. So I asked them, Hey,
when we do our next photoshoot, can the medic administer.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
My shot because we have medics on set.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Yeah, I said, of course, of course photoshoot came around.
Oh no, the medic can't do it today.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
I said.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Said the next day, when they were shooting, she was
told the same thing, the medic couldn't do it. She
says this went on for days. I said started to
get worried. She was new to transitioning and didn't know
what would happen if she missed a hormone shot, she said.
After a few days, she got a call on the
production phone. That's the house phone the producers use when
they want to relay a message to the contestants off camera.
Speaker 4 (38:55):
They call up, Hey, so the medic won't be able
to do your shot. And I was like, what do
you mean, no, medic can't do my shot? Like a
week ago, there was gonna do my shot, Like I
need to do it. They said, yeah, you have to
do your shot. Bring one of the girls to be
in there with you so you don't think And I
was just like, wow, see, I did not know that.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
You have never told me that ANTIM had a rule
about filming. If more than one girl was in the
shower or bathroom at the same time, the camera was
allowed to be in there too. The producers could have
stayed with Isis while she took her shot off camera
to make sure she didn't pass out and to call
the medic if she did, but instead they told her
(39:40):
to take another contestant with her to the bathroom.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
So I honestly didn't want to do it on camera,
one because I was scared I was gonna faint, and
then two, I just don't want to do it on
a fuck a camera. Me being trans in itself, that's
enough of an impact. I don't need to do a
hormone shot on camera.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I did not know the level of manipulation.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Am I going to say it surprises me?
Speaker 5 (40:05):
No?
Speaker 4 (40:06):
Uh, that I will say there was a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Maybe Tyra and Ken Mack thought having this moment would
be groundbreaking and powerful. According to j Manguel, they fought
for it to air.
Speaker 8 (40:18):
I have to give props to Tyra Ken Mock the producers.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
They really fought for this moment with the network. Maybe
Tyra and Ken knew it would make great TV, get
people talking, and bring in a lot of viewers, and
they were right. But telling Isis she could have the
medic administer her hormone shot and then pulling the rug
from under her at the last moment was wrong. If
they wanted to make this a part of her storyline,
(40:45):
she should have been the first person to sign off
on it, not to mention it put her health at risk.
Isis fainted at the sight of blood, and she'd already
passed out twice trying to self administer her hormone shot.
Auntiem turned what should have been a private moment into
rating spot her and it wasn't the last time they
(41:06):
tried to turn her experience into a spectacle. Isis said
during her season, the producers removed the door from the
bathroom and replace it with a curtain. Isis doesn't know
if they did it because of her or two of
the other models who would sneak in the bathroom and
have off camera conversations, but either way it made Isis
extremely uncomfortable. Here she is talking to Oliver Twist about
(41:29):
it on his YouTube channel.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
So at one point they took the doors off the
bathrooms and it was just like a little curtain air
but when you walk by it blows, and I was
just like, okay, I have these a bathroom. At the time,
I was just learning how to like take myself and
I was just learning these things, and I was just like,
I was like, why would they do that? Like when
you walk by it, you know, the breeze make the
(41:54):
curtain move, and I'm just like, somebody, calzy, you can't
not like you can open the curtain and see me
using a bathroom or be taking a shower. The showers
our clear glass, and in my head, like that was
one of the most terrifying things. You know, I wasn't
I didn't have a connection with my body in that sense,
so I didn't want anybody to see me. And I
was just like, I'm going to have a moment.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
By moment, Isis means she was afraid her body would
be exposed on camera. Remember, part of the contract, producers
could use footage of contestants clothed or naked, whether they
knew they were being taped or not. So Isis got
really conscious of when and where she would get dressed.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
So usually try to shower or do stuff at certain times,
or if I know I was going to do something
like outside the show, I was just like, let me
wait until the girls are loading up, because I just
don't want to have a moment where I'm trying to
do something to make myself feel comfortable and somebody walk in.
So I really hated that they took the doors off,
and they worded it like it was because the girls
they were going to shower to talk, because then you know,
(42:54):
and there you couldn't have a micro on. But they
didn't want us to really be around each other without mics.
So when a door orst came off the hinges, I
would say that was a moment for me when I
was just like, that's a little weird, especially you know,
for me, I don't want a special privilege, but I
at least want some type of privacy. So whenever I
even I took a shower, I would put my towel
over the top of the shower the glass, and I
(43:16):
would just take a shower in that block, so at
least as somebody did walk in, they wouldn't see me.
It's like little things that people didn't think about or
wouldn't think about.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
Antium wanted to bring a trans model into the competition.
They wanted the attention her presence would bring to the show.
They maybe even wanted to spark a conversation in normalized
trans identity, but they didn't facilitate a situation where Isis
could feel comfortable. They prioritize the story and the ratings
over the actual person. After Isis was eliminated, Tyra brought
(43:49):
her on her talk show to talk about being trans.
Isis's mom came with her and talked about her own
journey to accepting her daughter. Tyra even brought one of
the bullies you heard in the tape earlier. Have this
weird debate. The girl was trying to justify her right
to disagree with Isis even existing. At the end of
the segment, Tyra brought out the leading gender affirming surgeon
(44:11):
in the country, doctor Marcy Bowers. The surgeon told Isis
she wanted to do her gender affirming surgery and she
was going to arrange for it to be paid so
Isis didn't have to come up with the twenty five
to thirty thousand dollars herself.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
You have some news for Isis.
Speaker 13 (44:27):
What news do you have for Isis? Well, I just
want to say your story really touches my heart, and
I saw you actually first on MSNBC.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
I think, isn't it is that right?
Speaker 13 (44:36):
But I can relate to you, and I know what
difference that surgery can make in your life and improve
things for the better. So what I want to do
is evaluate you for the processes of going through the surgery,
and if I can get the money together, i'd like
you to come out, assuming you want me to do
your surgery.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
I want to do this for you.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Would you say this is not happening, This is not happening.
How do you feel it.
Speaker 4 (45:05):
Doesn't feel like it's like I'm about to wake up.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, I'm about the wake up. Thank you, You're welcome.
For Tyra, this was a story that kept on giving.
After her surgery, Tyra brought Isis, her mother, and the
surgeon back on her show to talk about the whole process,
and in my opinion, Tyra and the surgeon got a
(45:28):
little too personal.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Now I know, there's something called dilating that that isis
Is supposed to be doing.
Speaker 13 (45:34):
Explained dilating, Well, patients that have gone from male to
female need to keep the vagina open.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Because Isis's boyfriend, Desmond join them on stage for this segment.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
So is she dilating to be able to have sex?
Speaker 4 (45:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 13 (45:49):
What it is to keep the vagina open and to
allow potentially some action.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
So Desmond, are you over there going?
Speaker 5 (45:57):
Come on?
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Baby? You got to dilate.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
There's a weird dynamic that can creep into conversations about
trans people. I'm talking about the tendency for people to
ask really invasive personal questions that are frankly none of
their business. The questions are usually about sex, bodily functions,
and private body parts, questions people usually shy away from.
(46:21):
Sometimes it's from genuine curiosity and a desire to understand.
And there are some people who feel like education is
the first step to normalization and acceptance. But a lot
of times the line of questioning is just voyeuristic. Non
trans people are obsessed with trans people's bodies. I don't
know what Tyra was trying to accomplish here. It was
(46:43):
the twenty tens and conversations like these weren't exactly mainstream.
But there's something about watching these segments today that feels icky,
like Tyra was trying to make Isis a sideshow act.
I have a lot of complicated feelings about isis is
time on A and TM. I know it was groundbreaking,
(47:04):
but the way Tyra and A ANDTM went about presenting
ISIS seems wrong. I also know I have the benefit
of thinking about this almost twenty years after it aired.
Isis talked about this dynamic in an interview with Logo.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
We look at things in a different lens than now.
So when people say, oh, this shouldn't treated you like that,
it make me feel some type of way because I
didn't have that support back then. I didn't have people
come into my rescue. I just think that it's really
easy to point fingers now. I mean, obviously the stuff
was wrong, but we're in a different era and we
(47:40):
were obviously different people. We're way more I think as
a as a people way more sensitive to problematic shit.
So it's just hard to look at something back then
because if you didn't say nothing about it back then,
I don't say nothing now because y'all, Dave Showan wasn't
coming to my rescue.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
I was in this hell.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
I love to dress.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Nobody didn't come and throw me no life wrath did?
Speaker 9 (48:04):
I mean?
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Draam Isis seems to have mixed feelings about Tyra and
A and TM today and the interviews you heard earlier,
you can tell she was clearly uncomfortable with the behind
the scenes stunts A and TM pulled, but she also
seems grateful to Tyra and the show for the opportunity.
I mean, Tyra helped her get gender affirming surgery. Isis
(48:28):
also says the exposures she got from A and TM
changed her life.
Speaker 4 (48:32):
I would say, out of most of the girls, I
was just like one of the ones that benefited the
most from the show.
Speaker 3 (48:39):
Isis is a queer icon. She's one of the most
famous trans people in America. She's an activist, speaker, and actress.
But being on the show didn't just change her life,
it changed the lives of so many queer people watching her.
I'm not exaggerating when I say seeing Isis on TV
was a lifeline. Multiple viewers have reached out to Isis
(49:02):
to tell her what her representation on A and TM
meant to them.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
A month or two after I got eliminated, this young
gay kid sent me a message and said I was
about to commit suicide and seeing your story helped me
realize there was a light at the end of the tunnel.
And I remember crying and being like, oh snop, Like
this is so much bigger than just my moment.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
And she's still inspiring a new generation of queer viewers
who are just discovering A and TM. I don't know
if she would have accomplished all this without the show,
or if her casting would have had such a huge
impact had top Model decided to do it later when
people were more comfortable with transidentity. But being a pioneer
(49:44):
often comes with a cost. And while I can say
A and TM played a pivotal role in changing attitudes
towards queer people in pop culture, it seems like the
contestants are the ones who bore that cost. They got
the hate messages, they had to defend themselves against their castmates,
they had to explain their identity to the judges and
(50:05):
face criticism for just being them. With all that in mind,
I asked Corey Wade what he thinks A and TM's
legacy is when it comes to queer representation.
Speaker 12 (50:19):
I do think they found some really, really amazing queer
representatives on that show who, just like I believe I did,
met those moments with grace. I just think we need
to give Isis her flowers. I'm so grateful that people
like this exist and have been uplifted to this platform.
(50:39):
There's a lot of beauty in what America's Next Time
Model has done.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
For all its failings. In many ways, this was one
thing A and TM got right, but for contestants like Corey,
it's still complicated.
Speaker 12 (50:52):
I feel so many different ways about this. I'm proud,
but I'm angry, but I understand. I'm angry, but I'm grateful.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
On the next episode, we finally tackle one of America's
Next Top models biggest sins. We're going to talk about
the body shaming and mixed messages about eating disorders that
became synonymous with the show. She's huge, She's not going
to be a top mom.
Speaker 2 (51:16):
My biggest problem is the body shape. I thank you.
I wouldn't want to see her in the swimsuit. You
gotta work on the side.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
Her body is just doing what's all.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
It's all going passhaped.
Speaker 6 (51:26):
That is what you're finis.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
We reached out to Tyra Banks and A and TM
executive producer Ken Mock so they could provide more perspective
on isis King's time on A and TM and Tyra's
talk show and what we've discussed on this episode, but
we did not hear back from them before airing this episode.
Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.
We're grateful for your support. We'd love for you to
(51:55):
really show your support by subscribing to our show on
Apple Podcast. Don't forget to give us a five star review.
If you love the show, tell your group, chat, your friends,
your mama to check us out, and if you don't,
maybe keep that one to yourself. The Curse of America's
Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcast, a
(52:16):
division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcast.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and
senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is
Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning.
Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcy, and Curry Richmond.
(52:36):
Consulting producers on this podcast are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor.
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio
editing on this episode by Matt del Vecchio, Andrew Callaway
and Tanner Robbins. The Curse of America's Next Top Model
theme was composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by
my Music Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed, especially the
(52:58):
former contestants, and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
Also check out the Etglass Podcast Instagram for Curse of
America's Nextop Model behind the scenes content.
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