December 2, 2025 • 55 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. Jeff's parents have always been critical--making negative comments about everything from his appearance and intelligence to his being "too sensitive"—and as an adult, Jeff has tried not to let these hurtful words get to him. But now that he's a new father, he's worried about the impact that his parents' constant criticism will have on his child. We help him move past his fear of confronting his parents in his new role as a parent himself.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column
for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is Deo Therapists. This week, a new father worries that
his parents' constant criticisms could be as damaging to his
child as they were to him.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
I called my mom and it was a snotty, crying
mess and told her, when you say those things, it
makes me feel really bad. And I've been working really
hard to accept myself and love myself and it just
really hurts. I appreciate it if you didn't. And her
response was something along the lines of get over it.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process. Hey,
just a note before we start. Dear Therapist is for
informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is
not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
(03:26):
have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, you
are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or
in full, and we may edit it for length and
or clarity.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Hi guy, Hi Lourie. So what do we have today?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, today we have a letter from a guy who
has some very critical parents and he doesn't know how
to deal with them. Here's what he wrote, Dear Therapists,
over the last few years, I've put in a lot
of work when it comes to understanding my parents and
my relationship to them. They are quite critical and judgmental,
quick to say that you or someone else as being
(04:04):
stupid or your appearance looks funny. They love to give
their unsolicited opinion and could be quite antagonistic when people
don't do things as they do. While in the company
of others, they will jump at the opportunity to tell
embarrassing stories of my past, remind me of times I
tried and came up short, and point out anything they
can about something quote wrong I may be doing in
(04:24):
the moment. I know my parents are loving and caring
and either don't know how to show this or have
very odd ways of doing so. I have come to
learn that this is more a reflection of their own
insecurities and care that was lacking in their own upbringing.
I try to be mindful of this and not let
it impact my own self worth. The problem is young
kids don't know this, and I am the proud parent
(04:46):
of a newborn child. I very much want my family
to be a big part of my child's life, but
I am absolutely terrified of their feedback and criticism slowly
chipping away at the self esteem of my child. I
know I can't shelter my child from all criticisms and
personalities in life, nor would I want to. But the
grandparent grandchild relationship should be a safe space of love, empowerment,
(05:08):
and emotion validation, things that may have been lacking in
my own childhood. My parents are also of the generation
where they think tough love and harsh criticism build healthy,
resilient adults. They like to go on at length about
how we're all sensitive millennials now. In the past, when
I've tried to make it known how their words and
actions made me feel, it sometimes came with an apology,
(05:29):
but not without an added but you're too sensitive, or
you think you've got problems. I worry that any concerns
I voiced won't be taken seriously, or worse, that they'll
be stubborn and doubled down with their dated, my house,
my rules attitude. You can probably guess from my letter
that I can be quick to skirt conflict and appease others.
But that doesn't seem like the healthy way to go
(05:50):
about this. How can I protect my child? Thank you, Jeff.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
So the transition to parenthood, right when you have your
first child and you transition to being a parent, it
brings up pretty much every psychological conflict you might have
had ever in your life, because it brings up you
feelings about the parenting that you receive from your parents,
what kind of parent you will be. It radically changes
your sense of identity. So that's a huge life event
(06:20):
that just brings up so many feelings.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, it does. There's this really famous paper by Selma
Fraber called The Ghosts in the Nursery, and it's about
how when we have our kids, we start to relive
a lot of the experiences that we had as kids
that maybe we hadn't thought about in a very long time.
And it's always that thing where you say I'm not
going to do it the way my parents did, and
(06:45):
then you find yourself doing exactly the thing that you
said you wouldn't. I wonder if there's some bit of
him that maybe he's not aware of yet, that worries
that he might do something to his own child that
he doesn't want to. Maybe it doesn't look the same
as what his parents did, but that somehow he's going
to fall short when it comes to him and his
(07:07):
own child.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
What a lot of people don't recognize it is an
absolutely terrifying responsibility. When as therapists, people tell us that
they've had a newborn and they start talking about the
fields that they have, it's very very common, except it's
not something that people express to their friends, like, oh,
my goodness, I'm going to break my kid.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
A lot of people will talk about, oh, I'm not sleeping,
or those aspects of having a newborn. But I remember
when I had my son, people weren't really talking about
the fact that you're handed this human that you are
now responsible for in every way and you've never done
it before, and that is terrifying. And so when I
(07:49):
started talking about that with other people, it felt like, Oh,
I'm not the only one. Oh, you felt this way too,
and so I think that Jeff needs to understand that
it's very normal to feel like I want to do
right by this little person and I don't know if
I know how, and especially in his situation where you
feels like he didn't have great modeling for that right.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
A friend of mine one said, I break every iPhone
I have. Why did somebody give me a baby?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I know it's like I can't even take care of
all out, So now I have this human. Well, let's
go talk to him and see what we can do
to help him with the situation with his parents.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yes, this is Deotherapists and we'll be back after a
short break.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I'm Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists. Hi Jeff, Hi,
Hi Jeff. It's good to have you on this show.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Thanks so much for having me, and congratulations on the baby.
How old is the baby now?
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Four months old?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Are you getting any sleep?
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Not much? No?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
No?
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Is it just you?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Did you have a poet? Ye?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
My partner, yet she's tired too, Jeff.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
One of the things that stood out for me in
your letter was you use the word terrified to describe
your worry about the impact your parents might have on
your son. Can you tell us a little bit more
about really what that fear is, about what interactions they've
been with your parents so far.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Yeah, I've done some therapy myself over the last couple
of years, and I'm starting to realize that a lot
of my you know, my anxieties and insecurities and things
surrounding self worth, they stem from messages that I got
as a child. And I'm a lot more receptive now
to the the tone of voice and the messaging that
I get from my parents, whether they're you know, kind
(09:47):
of off hand like oh that's stupid, or you know,
comments about my parents or comments about others. As I
can see pretty clearly now sort of the line between
that and how I am today. I'm just I'm so scared.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Have your parents seen him yet and how has that
been they have?
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Yeah, I think I'm just like, I'm looking for those things,
for those messages for my parents, and I know when
you're looking for them, you see them. I see them
just making sort of like offhand remarks about the way
that he's dressed or just like physical appearance.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
What exactly have they said, just to give us a
flavor of what that sounds like.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, oh you look ridiculous, like in that outfit or crying,
Oh you're fine. And one of the things I think
I've seen or noticed in myself and my history with
them is like I think I got a lot of
that messaging is when I wasn't fine, I was told
that I was fine, you know, didn't feel like my
emotions were very validated. I'm so freaked out about the
(10:41):
implications of that and that messaging for my son.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
What do you do in the moment when your parents
say things like this, and more importantly, how do you feel?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
I generally just take it. When it really gets under
my skin, I respond sometimes maybe not the best way,
just kind of not angry, but just like yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever,
And I feel really really small.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
The reason that you feel all is because we all
do this around our parents at times when they trigger
something that was upsetting from our childhood. We get very
young in those moments, so it's not our adult selves
that's responding, it's our childhood self. And when you even
(11:29):
just minimize your feeling a second ago, you said, you know,
they sort of tried to tell you, No, you're not
feeling this. You just did that to yourself. You said,
well angry, No, not angry. I'll bet you get pretty angry.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
And part of that being young when we were with
our parents is that we revert to the fact that
when we were kids and this happened, we didn't have
a lot of options. We couldn't just get up and go,
for example, and then we maintain that in our adulthood
we feel like helpless and paralyzed and I have to
take it. Part of what happens when we get into
(12:06):
that young mental space because we're with our parents and
we revert back to childhood as we feel as helpless
and lacking in resources as we did when we were
indeed helpless and lacking in resources, even though now we're
not how much you can identify feeling that feeling of
helplessness and that you just have to take it because
(12:27):
there's not much you can actually do as an adult.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
I feel that fully, yeah one. And I don't want
to rock the boat with them, and I see how
this is problematic, but I don't want to make them
question how they raised me and feel bad in that sense.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
They don't necessarily have to feel bad, But why not
alert them to the fact that you didn't and still
don't like to be spoken to that way.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Because I know how much it would hurt me and
how terrible I would feel if I got that messaging
from somebody.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
There's a lot of blurring of the lines between how
your parents would feel, how you would feel, and how
your child might feel. And so you're saying, you know,
I wouldn't like it if my child grows up and
says that to me. There's a way that patterns and
families are passed down through the generations based on how
(13:25):
each generation is raised. And I wonder if you could
tell us a little bit more about your parents and
what you know about their upbringing.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah, my father, he was raised in a family. His
father was in the Second World War and he came, yeah,
came home, started a family. And my dad just mentioned
one time that he basically just said, I was a
tank driver in the Second World War. Don't ever ask
me about it again. So you know, emotions that things
(13:58):
like that and not spoken about in that family, nor
were they in mind. And my mom, her father passed
away when she was in her thirties from alcoholism, right.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
But if there was alcoholism in the family, there probably
was a lot of erratic behavior or secrets or instability
in some way.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Probably yeah, And so.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
She probably didn't have a lot of space for her
feelings as well. So there's a lot of similarities between
how you felt as a kid and probably how your
parents felt as children.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
That makes sense, Jeff.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
One of the things I think that's happening is that
you are justifying this paralysis that you feel by saying,
I don't want to hurt the feelings. I don't want
them to question their own parenting to me. But yet
without doing that, it's going to be is and has
been years for you of feeling really bad when you're
(14:58):
around them, and being terrified now that your son will
feel bad when he is around them. Now having a
conversation like that might not necessarily be pleasant, and perhaps
the feelings will be hurt, and perhaps they'll think back
and go oops. I mean, actually that's the best case
scenario that they think back and go oops. But to
the extent that they do, then they might actually change
(15:19):
their behavior. And I think the math here is do
you perpetuate something over many, many years? And as Laurie
was saying transgenerationally or do you actually address it because
the adult you is super clear that that's not something
that's good for you even today uncertainly wouldn't be something
that's good for your son.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Yeah. A big part of like the I guess called
the work that I've done over the last few years
is feeling like in an attempt to not have to
have that conversation, and I guess potentially like have my
feelings invalidated further as just trying to change my relationship
with that messaging, like oh, when my parents say this,
that's their childhood talking.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
But when I see you, because we can actually see you,
the hurt in your eyes indicates that's not necessarily super successful.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, we see you were smiling and recognition at that too.
You're aware of that, and I think that's why you
wrote to us, because that hasn't been successful. Yep. I'm wondering,
given all of this, how you felt when you learned
you were going to become a father. What was the
(16:31):
pregnancy like for you and your wife?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
It was super exciting As it relates to my family, though,
I was I think afraid to tell them about the
choices that we were making and the things that we
wanted for our kid.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
What kinds of choices, just like whether we.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Were going to do a home birth or at a
hospital birth. Are we going to stay in a small
apartment or are we going to co sleep with them?
My parents are really quick to give you advice and
snap judgments. Just to avoid that, I just didn't really
tell them much about the things that we were doing
because I just wanted to be free to do the
things that my partner and I wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Right, Except you weren't exactly free because you were trapped
by having to edit yourself. Yeah, so you weren't free
at all. In fact, what I think about is that
you say in your letter you really want your child
to have a close relationship with his grandparents, and I
think you want to have a close relationship with your parents,
(17:31):
but a different one. And if you avoid them by
we're not going to tell them what we're doing with
the baby, I'm going to edit myself around them because
if they make a comment, it will devastate me, or
it will make me question myself, or it'll leave me
in a funk for two hours. Whatever it is, you're
not going to be able to have that closer relationship
(17:54):
with them, and having a baby is a real transition
in a really good time to redefine relationships for the better.
And what this really does is it really kind of
forces you to emotionally move into the adult space and say, wait,
I'm the parent now, I'm an adult now, and so
(18:17):
how can I be more of an adult around my parent?
So when your parents say we use this method with
you because we think that tough love makes people more resilient,
and you're just a sensitive millennial, well guess what. I
guess it didn't work because you are sensitive, So it
didn't make you more resilient, and they're having trouble seeing that,
(18:40):
and so I think you are too. So when you
talk about, oh, I have to be really careful about
what I say around my parents because they may say
something that will devastate me. We want to help you
get to a different place with that.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Please do so your partner, how does she respond when
those kinds of he looks ridiculous in that? How does
she respond when they make comments like that?
Speaker 4 (19:06):
She's been pretty unfazed by it over the years. She's
just like such a kind person, gives everyone the benefit
of the doubt and that thus far it's been Oh,
they don't really mean it. They love you a lot.
But actually, right before I wrote the letter, sort of
when it first affected her, my parents made a comment
(19:27):
about like, oh, that looks ridiculous, and I saw how
much it hurt her, and that was the breaking point
for me. It's like this no longer affects just me.
I have to do something about it.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Right, And I think that your feeling has been that
it's going to be really, really difficult to do. And
I think as a son, your feeling has been I
can take it now. Whether that was wise, whether you
should be taking it or should have taken it so long,
I don't know. But as a husband and now as
(19:58):
a father, it's a fight you need to have. The
three people you mentioned in your letter that you've had
some experience in asking them to either use that language
or to not do those things. Could you tell us
a little bit about how you brought that up with
them and what the reactions were.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Yeah, over the course of years, they had just like
constantly made comments about appearance, like you know, my body
and my brother's body, like things that we have no
control over. There was one night. Actually it was my
partner Liz. We left and she was like, it's not
okay that your parents say that. I think you're beautiful.
And I went home and I called my mom and
(20:37):
it yeah, I was a snotty, crying mess and told
her like, when you say those things, it makes me
feel really bad and I've been working really hard to
acceect and love myself for those things, and it just
really hurts. I'd appreciate it if you didn't. And her
response was something along the lines of get over it.
And she hasn't mentioned it since then, So in that way,
(21:00):
I guess it was a success. But I wish that
if I brought it up now, that we could talk
about it comfortably and like adults. But she kind of
fought back, and then it's just like it never happened.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
It's not like it never happened because she felt blamed
or criticized even though that wasn't your intention. And yet
she got the message because she hasn't brought it up since,
so the conversation did happen, but she gets so injured
she doesn't hear it. I feel hurt by this. What
she hears is you were a bad mother. And that's
(21:31):
where she starts to defend herself. But she heard it,
and so that's a start. That's an opening that gives
us a little bit of hope that maybe something different
can happen.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Yeah, And that's how I deal with things. You know,
if a friend comes to me and is like, hey,
upset me that you can come to this thing, or like, oh,
I'm a terrible friend.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Right. Instead of taking the message that your friend is saying,
I want to be closer with you and you're important
to me. And that's why I was upset by this,
you hear it as oh God, I'm a horrible person.
I think your mom do just something similar where instead
of saying, oh, my son wants to be closer with me,
she hears I'm a terrible mom.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Yeah. And I think one of the big reasons I
struggle so much with talking about it is I look
at my mom, and in so many ways I see.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Myself in what ways do you see yourself?
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Mostly in the ways that she responds to criticisms like
that she kind of shuts down, and I shut down.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
But you get defensive and say things like oh you
think you got problems?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
No, I just shut down.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
You shut down, it's self flagellate.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Do you do this with Liz? Also? Like which she
has something to bring up with you? How do you
respond to her.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
We've just had such open, honest dialogue from day one
that I feel comfortable bringing those things up. I'm trying
to get better at talking about my needs and my boundaries,
and there's been a couple times where I've mentioned them
and then the next day feel really guilty, But generally
it's very healthy, open conversation.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
That's great news, though. It is great news that you
found someone what makes you feel about yourself so differently
than your parents did. It's lovely.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
It feels really great.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, we see you tearing up. It's really meaningful to you.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
That phone conversation. That example who gave us with your mom?
Do you have an example with your dad?
Speaker 5 (23:25):
Hmmm.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
I've never really talked to him about any of that
kind of stuff before, called him out on things. He
does like to point out past mistakes and you know,
off the coff just you're so stupid, and I definitely
just I'd take it.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
So this would be new territory for you to bring
it up with him.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Yeah, he responds the opposite way to my mom, he'll explode.
He'll just get angry and kind of run off.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
What about your brother, how has he dealt with this
as he's grown up.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
I have two brothers, and they've both kind of said
I always say those things because they want the best
for us and want us to succeed.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
But do they own the fact that it's very painful
as you do? Not at all? Do they have kids?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Is this the first grandchild?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Yeah, it's the first one.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
It sounds like there's this sense of isolation too. You
know sometimes when you grow up in a household and
there's something about the way that you felt heard or unheard,
and everybody else in the family is sort of like
it's not a big deal, right, And then you're sort
of labeled as the person who is overly sensitive or
(24:39):
problematic in some way, and so the problem becomes, oh,
it's you, because we deal with this just fine. And
I think that that probably makes you question the validity
of what you're feeling. And so you have Liz who
can say, wow, as an outsider, I saw that, and
I did not like the way your parents treated you.
(25:01):
I don't like what they said about your appearance. So
there's that reality check there, But I imagine that it
was very hard growing up when people were saying, well,
you're just sensitive, so whatever you're feeling, this hurt, this anger,
buck up.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah it's tough because I you kind of summed that
up really well. But in addition to all that, I
I do feel like I was. I was maybe like
the hard kid in her family. At least I'm reminded
that I was a.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Lot because you had feelings.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Probably I struggled in junior high. You know, I dealt
with anxiety and I was depressed. I you know, I
was bullied, didn't have a lot of friends in elementary school.
When I was really young, like my son's age, Apparently
I cried a lot. My parents will tell me like
how how terrible I was as a kid because I
cried so much. On more than one occasion, they've told
(25:58):
me like they considered putting me up for adoption, which
I'm like, holy shit, Like what kind of things were
you telling me as a kid that.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I they told you that as a kid.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
They told me that as an adult, but they actually.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Said that we were thinking it's something we're putting up
adoption because you're crying so much.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, or that I was just like such a hard child.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
So you were basically labeled difficult early on for being human.
As you know, you have a baby yourself. Babies cry,
That's how they communicate. In fact, that is their survival mechanism.
So if a baby is uncomfortable in any way, they're hungry,
they're tired, they're saying, hey, I need help, come here,
(26:40):
comfort me. That's the only way they can communicate. And
so it sounds like, from even being a newborn, your
parents are saying, we don't want that kind of communication.
We want happy, pleasant communication, and anything else is quote
unquote difficult. And I wonder what it's like for you
(27:02):
now when your son cries, what comes up in you.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Just like patient with them and hold them and tell
them that it's okay and that I love him anyways.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Do you notice what you said, I love him anyways
like I love you, despite the fact you're doing this
very normal thing. So just to notice how much your
parents have seeped into you. It's it's just you're showing
him that I love you and let me help you here.
I know you're calling out to me for help, and
(27:34):
your son is not being difficult there's not loving him
despite the fact that he's crying. And I think that
part of the reason that's still in you is because
you haven't accepted that in yourself. That the work here
is really about how are you going to reframe for yourself,
whether you are a person who is difficult, whether you
(27:57):
are too much. I think you have this sense of
I'm too much. I don't want to approach my parents
about this because that will be too much.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Yeah. And you know, over the last few years of
realizing that I deal with normal human things and talking
about them with friends and be like, oh, you know,
I X, Y Z, And then the next day I'd
be like, I shouldn't have told them those things, Like
I'm just like I feel like, oh, I probably lost
them as a friend because I burden them with my feelings.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Again, I stop, you burden them with your feelings, Yeah,
because that's the unfortunate legacy of your upbringing, that feelings
are burdensome, they make you a difficult child, one worthy
perhaps of considering adoption, because this kid has just things
called feelings, and they're making a mess. When you have
(28:50):
these wounds which you carry with you, and the wounds
are still there, and you're getting freshly wounded each time
you interact with your parents. There is nothing you can
do to reframe that, to manage that, to dismiss it,
that will make that not hurt. And I think that
(29:12):
this idea of let me go to therapy so I
can learn how to tolerate and not be too upset
when you tell me that you went home and you
called your mum and I think you said you were
a blubbering, sobbing miss. And this is an adult and
this is recent. It's the proof right that this still hurts.
(29:32):
And it does, Jeff, because it should, because when somebody
speaks to you that way and treats you that way,
especially with the history, it has to hurt. You said, yes,
I think I'm strong enough to do it for my son.
Now I would love you to be strong enough to
do it for yourself, and your son can benefit from that.
But it's you that really needs to be able to
(29:55):
do it. You're the one that needs to be able
to communicate to your parents. You, guys, I can't keep
hurting every time I'm around you. It's not something I
want to keep doing, and I'm sure it's not something
you want to keep doing.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah. Thing about feelings in your household was that feelings
were dangerous, Feelings were messy, Feelings made people uncomfortable. And
what I think your parents couldn't see because of the
way they grew up where feelings were also dangerous and
uncomfortable and messy and inconvenient, was that when you had feelings,
(30:32):
it was about them and their inability to tolerate their
own feelings. So when you had feelings, it brought up
feelings in them. You cried. They thought, Oh no, maybe
I'm a bad parent. My kid's unhappy. I don't know
how to do that. I need to have my kid
be happy so that I feel good about myself and
(30:53):
as a parent myself, I can say. A million feelings
come up. There's that warm like I want to take
care of you and I want to help you. And
there's also that oh my god, the baby's crying again.
When am I ever going to sleep? And like is
this normal? Is my baby healthy? Am I doing everything right?
Speaker 3 (31:09):
You know?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
All of those things are coming up, and to be
able to sit with those feelings, you have to really
move into that place of I've dealt with my childhood
and I'm making sure that I'm separating out my own
relationship with feelings that was in my house when I
was growing up with how I feel about that now.
(31:32):
And your parents hadn't done that work, so they weren't
able to do that. But you have begun that work,
and you do have the opportunity to do that, and
so you won't be in this place of overcompensating. Like, okay,
so when my son is crying, I have to only
feel like these warm, loving feelings toward my child. You
can also feel this is really hard. I can't believe
(31:56):
the kid is crying again, right, Like, that's okay to
feel that. You know, you'll respond to your child and
you'll fold him and feed him and change a staper
or whatever needs to happen. But you can also say
to Liz like, know, hey, you got this one. I know,
or she'll say to you, you got this one right,
And that's okay to have these moments of you know, God,
(32:16):
this is really hard, I wish this kid would just
leave me alone for an hour. And also love your
kid with you know, every fiber of your being. And
both of those things are true. Your parents couldn't integrate
those two things.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Yeah, we do have some advice for you, and I
think what we need to preface and say is that
(32:59):
what's important here is what you can message to them,
the clarity with which you'll do it, and which will
be necessary to maintain it. The mark of whether they
hear you is not going to occur in the moment.
It's going to occur when they change or not their behavior,
(33:23):
because that's what happened in that incident with your mom.
She kind of heard it, that made excuses and rebuffed,
but then she stopped saying that thing that you asked
her to stop saying. Sort Of the conversation itself would
probably not be a good indication about whether you got through.
It might be, but you're going to have to reserve
judgment until you see what changes in terms of behavior.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Okay, Jeff, I was thinking about how in your family,
resilience meant that you don't have feelings, and the reality
is that you become more resilient when you can actually
feel your feelings. That's a lesson that you've learned as
you've moved into adulthood, and one of your roles as
(34:06):
a parent is to be that child's teacher, and as
you move into this more adult place with your feelings,
which is not the helpless place you were as a child,
but the more empowered place, a place we have agency
to respond differently and to do something different with those
feelings as an adult. That's a lesson that you're learning
(34:28):
for yourself, and you can also be a teacher of
those lessons to the rest of your family.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, your parents don't really understand this feelings thing, and
you do. And do you understand how human that makes you,
how important that is? And this is something that you
need to teach them. They might not be the most
(35:00):
willing students, but this is something you need to come
at as a son who's understood something and learns something
about life. They have not, and this is your attempt
to teach them that. And why we're emphasizing this aspect
of teacher because when you embody that, it gives you
(35:22):
a different stature, It gives you a different kind of
emotional resiliency in that moment because you're coming from a
place of wisdom. I know something Mom and Dad that
you don't and that you really should, So I'm going
to try and convey it to you. You don't say that,
but that's the mindset with which you approach them, and
we think you need to speak to them separately because
(35:45):
they are so similar in their orientation, they would just
reinforce one another and then it would be very difficult
to get through. So we think you should start with
your mom and then talk with your dad soon thereafter.
Would like you to say, mom, being a dad myself
has given me a lot of thoughts about my life.
(36:06):
And I recognize really clearly that you and Ed thought
that by issuing these kinds of comments and criticisms, I
should be able to take it and it will toughen
me up. But as you know, I'm a sensitive millennial,
so that didn't quite work. And then you'll say, and
(36:30):
I am so glad it didn't, because I can experience
my feelings and I can be in touch with them,
and because I am, I have a request for you.
I want to feel closer to you, and I want
my son to feel close to you, and so I
need you to change your strategy. I need you to
(36:53):
understand that when you criticize me and put me down,
even if it's sometimes jokingly, it actually hurts. And I
don't want to hurt when I am with you, and
I know you don't want me to, So I'm asking
you to do something really difficult, and that is change
a habit you have, and I want you to instead
(37:17):
of pointing out deficits, I want you to be supportive.
I want you to be loving, I want you to
be encouraging. Those are things I want to hear from you,
And those are the things I want my son to
hear from you.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
And you can say to them that those comments don't
make me stronger. They actually make me weaker. When I
feel your love, your approval, your appreciation, your respect, that's
what makes me stronger.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Who boy, can you tell us more about the Who boy?
You just kind of out of there.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
I'm just going over all the things in my head
of like how they're going to respond, which I shouldn't
because that's what's kept me from saying things in the past.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
But when you do go over them in your head,
it makes you feel what so scared? Scared?
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
What's the scary thing that can happen?
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Just having them not be receptive to it or downplay.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
It or And if you are a teacher, Jeff, are
you scared if your students don't quite get it yet?
That is that a scary thing. Nope, right, it's not.
And you're a teacher here.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
It's so hard to break out of the child parent
thing and see them as an equal adult where I
can teach.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
They're not equal. You are a teacher to them, is
my point. And that's the point too. If you try
to see them as equal, it's difficult. You need to
see them as not knowing something very fundamental that you do.
And Jeff, this is not a one time lesson. This
is a lesson that's going to have to be repeated.
You're going to have to assume this with them for
(39:10):
a long time. And it's time you did assument because
somebody should, right.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
So instead of approaching them from that place of like
when your mom hurt you before, we're not saying don't
feel that you will feel what you felt as a child.
That's okay. It's normal to feel hurt when somebody says
something hurtful, especially people that you love, especially people that
you feel like they're not seeing who you are or
(39:36):
appreciating who you are. And so instead of responding from
that place, it's very tender for you, and it takes
you back to that old state of mind that I
can't do anything about this. You are a parent now
and you have choices. So if they don't heed what
you say in the moment when something happens, like they say, oh,
(39:56):
you know, the baby looks so funny, you may have
to for a second be the child in your mind.
Go through that in your mind. Okay, here's my reaction
as the helpless child. But now I'm a teacher and
these people need me to teach them so thing, and
you can say, very gently, I'm reminding you that it
would feel so much better if you would say, hey,
(40:16):
he looks so adorable. Those comments would make me feel stronger,
would make my son feel stronger, and would also bring
us closer to you. And so, no matter what comes
(40:36):
out of these conversations, the good news that we're hearing
is that already you're being a good parent to yourself,
that you understand the importance of feeling something and acknowledging
those feelings and acknowledging those feelings in other people. And
that's what's going to make you a good parent to yourself,
(41:00):
to your son, and to your parents who need a
little bit of reparenting.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yes, Jeff, one more thing might get upset your Dad
might get angry, and if I get you correctly, that
will make you feel after the fact guilty. And I
want to let you know that your thermostat for guilt
(41:26):
is set a little low. It's not really correct, so
you will feel guilty when you should not, and so
you're going to have to disregard it because you're going
to feel afterwards, especially if there was a bruhaha, which
they might be like, oh, their feelings might be hurt,
they might be upset, they might be bewildered. They'll get
over it because they do care about you and you
(41:48):
care about them. But you do have to say to yourself,
this was necessary. I didn't do anything wrong. In fact,
I did something hugely important. And by the way, not
just for me, not just for my son, not just
for Liz, but for my brothers and for their future children,
because I'm enough to be the teacher here and I
(42:11):
am taking that mental.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, and you're giving your parents a gift that they
didn't have growing up. They never had someone say it
is okay to feel this, and this is how people
get closer.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
See we just even just apologizing for your tears. That's
that message that you got that it's not okay to
feel So how do you feel about trying this this week?
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (42:46):
I so don't want to, but I know that it's necessary.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Well, So when you say I so don't want to,
who's talking the child or the teacher?
Speaker 4 (42:53):
The child, of course, the child.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
So I want to ask the teacher. I want to
ask the teacher. Yes, how do you feel about trying
this out this week? Knowing what you know about life
and how important this lesson is?
Speaker 4 (43:07):
Ah, I recognize the importance of it. I do not
look forward to it, but I understand how important it is,
especially for my son and my partner and as you say,
my siblings, which I yeah, I hadn't even thought about
in this equation, but that's necessary and something I have
to do.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Let me just reframe it one more time for you.
I want to ask you the question again, but I
want to orient it differently. Imagine you're going to talk
to your son about this one day when he's able
to understand it. Right, So you're giving him that message
anyway by the way you treat him, by the way
you acknowledge his feelings, by the way you and Liz
interact with him. But one day, somewhat beside your parents,
(43:53):
is going to give your son the message is not
okay to feel somebody in the world will do that,
And you, as his teacher, are going to have a
conversation with him when he comes to you and says that.
Do you feel about having that conversation with him?
Speaker 4 (44:13):
Empowered?
Speaker 5 (44:15):
Yeah, just to be able to just to be able
to pass that ability along to my son, It's just
it's something I've struggled with so much for my whole life,
and to be able to give that to him and
seems like a gift and to create.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
A different legacy for him.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
And so when you think about being the teacher and
having this conversation with your parents, that's the perspective that
we want you to take. Remember you're the teacher, and
I know it's a lot of recalibration for you, separating
(44:59):
the little boy that you were from the wise teacher
that you've become.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Thank you for the encouragement.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Well, but Jeff, it's completely true. Just think from it.
How much more sophisticated emotionally are you than they are?
How much more of an understanding of emotions do you
have than they do? I mean, it's a gulf. You
recognize that right that you are in a position to
talk about emotions in a way that's far knowledgeable than
(45:31):
they are.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Yeah, it's just so hard to break out of the
just the idea that your parents are above you and
have it all figured out and that you have could
ever possibly teach them something.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
What you're doing here is not just teaching your parents.
You're reparenting yourself. Yeah, you're being a good parent to yourself.
And you have a choice every time you go back
into that place of oh, I can't do this, or
to take a breath and say, wait a minute, I
(46:04):
need to learn how to be a good parent to
myself because the stakes are very high. If I can't
be a good parent to myself, no matter how good
my intentions are, I will not be a good parent
to my son. So I have to do this first
with myself in order to give my son the thing
(46:26):
that I want to give him more than anything else
in the world.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Yeah, it's true, that's all I want to give him.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
You will do this, You will have this conversation. It
will go as it will go, but you will do
your best after you've had it, and after you know
how difficult it was to have. How impressed wul yourself?
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Will you be very proud?
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Good? So yes, do it and then feel really proud
of yourself for doing it.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
And I want to say one last thing. You mentioned
that that time that your parents made a comment about
your appearance, that it was Liz who said to you
that's not okay. And you then went home and called
and said I didn't like that, right, and then the
behavior stopped. The conversation didn't go swimmingly, but the behavior stopped.
(47:23):
I want you to as part of this and liszt Liz,
just to let her know that you're doing this, so
that you have that support going in. We want you
to tell her before you make these calls. Here's what
I'm going to do. Here's the rationale behind it. Here
is my role as a teacher. Here is how that's
(47:45):
going to help me become a better parent to myself,
which in turn will make me a better parent to
our child. Here's how it's going to help you. Here's
how it's going to help my brothers. And here's how
in some way it will help my parents.
Speaker 4 (48:05):
I can do this.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Great good. Thank you, Okay, Well, we look forward to
hearing what happens, and remember we'll be rooting for you.
Speaker 4 (48:16):
Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to
talk with me.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
I liked him a lot, a lot. Yeah, what a
lovely person, and I'm so glad he found a lovely wife. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
He was in such a common predicament with being sort
of caught between the childhood self and the adult self
that he's started to grow into.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
And what you have to do in that scenario is
you have to use your adult self to do something
that feels really unnatural and really scary, but it's in
the doing of it that you become the adult.
Speaker 4 (48:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
I'm really glad that he has Liz because I think
she's going to be a great support for him when
the child walks into the metaphorical classroom and the teachers
trying to talk.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
And I'm really glad he has his son because his
son has forced him to grow up.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
I think for him having that conversation that he's so
afraid to have will be such a growth experience that
it will make it all worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Yeah, this is one of those things where you see
the benefit in the long term.
Speaker 3 (49:28):
You're listening to deer therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
So we heard back from Jeff, and I'm really looking
forward to this one. I hope it went well for him.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, that was not an easy role reversal we were
asking him to try. So let's go hear what happened.
Speaker 4 (49:54):
Hey, Louri, Hey guy, it's Jeff. So I did it.
I had the conversations that I never thought I'd be
able to have with my folks. Leading up to it,
I was super nervous, like nauseous even, but after talking
it through with Liz, realized that that was the child
in me, not the adult or the teacher. As you
had mentioned, I had to really remain mindful and remind
(50:18):
myself that I was doing the right thing and that
it's okay to express those needs and those feelings. I
approached both of the conversations as you had mentioned, that
I've thought a lot about what it means to be
a parent and a child, and that I understand their
criticisms and the way that they raised us to not
acknowledge hard feelings, that that was just their way of
(50:39):
fostering strength and resilience in us, and that while I
appreciate and love them for all that they've done for me,
that those comments and flippant dismissals of concerns and feelings
that I that I have and that people have are
not okay, That they hurt and they can make them
feel really small or invalid, and that in the future,
(50:59):
I'd appreciate it if they could be mindful of those
things and either don't say anything at all or instead
act in ways that uplift and encourage, especially as it
relates to their grandchild. The conversation with my mom didn't
go so great. There were moments where she'd said, like,
you should know that I really love you, and her
(51:21):
saying like, okay, okay, I'll try. But she told me
that I don't really have it that bad, and that
I'm being too sensitive and that I'm essentially asking her
and my father to censor themselves. She said it's naive
or even foolish for me to ask for someone to
change their character, and that she doesn't want to have
to constantly have to think about what she says in
(51:41):
front of me, and that if we raise our son
like this, that he won't be able to take negative
feedback as he gets older. So I think I had
a lot of hope that it'd be this magical conversation
and I would finally feel seen, but I really didn't.
It was really hard. I felt like I did a
pretty good job in standing my ground, and I'm proud
(52:04):
of myself for not backing down on my needs and
feelings and trying my best to remember that these are
reasonable requests. I wasn't a blubbering mess, but I did
leave the conversation feeling really upside down, and the child
within me felt really invalidated. The conversation with my father, thankfully,
it went really well. He was really gracious and kind.
(52:28):
He listened, He acknowledged that he can be this way,
and he apologized for it. Said that it was never
his intention to make me feel small or shamed, but
that it was a misguided way of showing affection, poking fun,
and that he'll be more mindful of it with me
and around his grandson. He noted that he's always had
a hard time talking about feelings, especially difficult ones, and
(52:50):
said he was really encouraged and happy to see that
I'm getting better at doing it myself. I left that
conversation feeling proud, relieved, and hopeful for the future. I mean,
don't get me wrong, I've got an emotional hangover that's
going to last a week, but I feel that I've
done something incredibly important for myself and for my family,
(53:11):
maid some groundwork so I feel more comfortable expressing myself
and setting boundaries. I just want to say thanks again
for helping me to see that the approach I was
taking changing my relationship with pain rather than actively working
to heal that I wasn't working for me. But you
made me feel seen and heard, and you gave me
the encouragement to feel like I could have those conversations
with my parents and that it was normal, that I'm
(53:34):
normal and it's reasonable to ask for those things. So
thank you so much. Thanks LORI, Thanks Guy.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
Well. What people can't see is that while we're listening
to this voicemail, you and I were nodding and smiling
a lot. And I think that's because even though the
conversation with his mother was very difficult, it's still set
the groundwork for some internal work that he's doing himself,
where he is being the teacher and yes, the child
(54:05):
part of him felt wounded by that conversation, and the
child part of him felt gratified by the conversation with
his father. But I think when he goes back into
the teacher position, what came out of it was a
different way of viewing himself, his place as a parent,
his place as a husband, his place as a son,
(54:28):
and that he really has something very valuable to teach
everyone in his family, but particularly himself.
Speaker 3 (54:35):
Yes, that conversation with his mom didn't go well, that
groundwork was established, as he said, the groundwork for him
to give her a look the next time she does it,
and for her to give him a look, but pause
and maybe not do it for the third time. And
so I think that he actually accomplished more than he realized, right.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
And also the fact that the father was so receptive
to this and was able to really listen for Jeff.
He had not felt listened to it all by his parents,
and so to have his father really take that in
and apologize and say I'm going to be mindful of this.
I think. I think that when the mother does this again,
now he's got the father a little bit on board,
(55:15):
and that will be very helpful too.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
And I think the bottom line here is that it's
never too late to change a family dynamic, even once
you're an adult. The way family dynamics work is that
if one person creates a real shift, it forces the
other people to shift as well, and that's what Jeff
did here. Hey fellow travelers, if you've used any of
(55:41):
our advice from the podcast in your own life, send
us a quick voice memo to Luriandguy at iHeartMedia dot
com and tell us about it. We may include it
in a future show that brings us to the end
of our show. For this week. Thank you so much
for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please take a
moment to rate and review it.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
You can follow us both online. I'm at lorigottlib dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or an in Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Our executive producers, Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by
Mike Johns Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 3 (56:36):
Next week, a woman copes with her husband's infidelity.
Speaker 4 (56:40):
It has come out and therapy that the relations have
been with men. However, my husband is very closed off
and kind of just wanted.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
To go away. Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and
we have a quick update.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Many of you have told us that you get something
new out of each episode when you listen to it
again the second or third time. In fact, when we
listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we
didn't remember.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so
many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to
absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping
new episodes right now, we are offering you our most
popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to
gain value from them.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy
with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Just as much.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,
which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And I have a new book coming out. It's called
Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,
and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You
can find out more about it on my website.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,
we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column
for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and
I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this
is Deo Therapists. This week, a new father worries that
his parents' constant criticisms could be as damaging to his
child as they were to him.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
I called my mom and it was a snotty, crying
mess and told her, when you say those things, it
makes me feel really bad. And I've been working really
hard to accept myself and love myself and it just
really hurts. I appreciate it if you didn't. And her
response was something along the lines of get over it.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process. Hey,
just a note before we start. Dear Therapist is for
informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is
not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
(03:26):
have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, you
are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or
in full, and we may edit it for length and
or clarity.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Hi guy, Hi Lourie. So what do we have today?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, today we have a letter from a guy who
has some very critical parents and he doesn't know how
to deal with them. Here's what he wrote, Dear Therapists,
over the last few years, I've put in a lot
of work when it comes to understanding my parents and
my relationship to them. They are quite critical and judgmental,
quick to say that you or someone else as being
(04:04):
stupid or your appearance looks funny. They love to give
their unsolicited opinion and could be quite antagonistic when people
don't do things as they do. While in the company
of others, they will jump at the opportunity to tell
embarrassing stories of my past, remind me of times I
tried and came up short, and point out anything they
can about something quote wrong I may be doing in
(04:24):
the moment. I know my parents are loving and caring
and either don't know how to show this or have
very odd ways of doing so. I have come to
learn that this is more a reflection of their own
insecurities and care that was lacking in their own upbringing.
I try to be mindful of this and not let
it impact my own self worth. The problem is young
kids don't know this, and I am the proud parent
(04:46):
of a newborn child. I very much want my family
to be a big part of my child's life, but
I am absolutely terrified of their feedback and criticism slowly
chipping away at the self esteem of my child. I
know I can't shelter my child from all criticisms and
personalities in life, nor would I want to. But the
grandparent grandchild relationship should be a safe space of love, empowerment,
(05:08):
and emotion validation, things that may have been lacking in
my own childhood. My parents are also of the generation
where they think tough love and harsh criticism build healthy,
resilient adults. They like to go on at length about
how we're all sensitive millennials now. In the past, when
I've tried to make it known how their words and
actions made me feel, it sometimes came with an apology,
(05:29):
but not without an added but you're too sensitive, or
you think you've got problems. I worry that any concerns
I voiced won't be taken seriously, or worse, that they'll
be stubborn and doubled down with their dated, my house,
my rules attitude. You can probably guess from my letter
that I can be quick to skirt conflict and appease others.
But that doesn't seem like the healthy way to go
(05:50):
about this. How can I protect my child? Thank you, Jeff.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
So the transition to parenthood, right when you have your
first child and you transition to being a parent, it
brings up pretty much every psychological conflict you might have
had ever in your life, because it brings up you
feelings about the parenting that you receive from your parents,
what kind of parent you will be. It radically changes
your sense of identity. So that's a huge life event
(06:20):
that just brings up so many feelings.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, it does. There's this really famous paper by Selma
Fraber called The Ghosts in the Nursery, and it's about
how when we have our kids, we start to relive
a lot of the experiences that we had as kids
that maybe we hadn't thought about in a very long time.
And it's always that thing where you say I'm not
going to do it the way my parents did, and
(06:45):
then you find yourself doing exactly the thing that you
said you wouldn't. I wonder if there's some bit of
him that maybe he's not aware of yet, that worries
that he might do something to his own child that
he doesn't want to. Maybe it doesn't look the same
as what his parents did, but that somehow he's going
to fall short when it comes to him and his
(07:07):
own child.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
What a lot of people don't recognize it is an
absolutely terrifying responsibility. When as therapists, people tell us that
they've had a newborn and they start talking about the
fields that they have, it's very very common, except it's
not something that people express to their friends, like, oh,
my goodness, I'm going to break my kid.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
A lot of people will talk about, oh, I'm not sleeping,
or those aspects of having a newborn. But I remember
when I had my son, people weren't really talking about
the fact that you're handed this human that you are
now responsible for in every way and you've never done
it before, and that is terrifying. And so when I
(07:49):
started talking about that with other people, it felt like, Oh,
I'm not the only one. Oh, you felt this way too,
and so I think that Jeff needs to understand that
it's very normal to feel like I want to do
right by this little person and I don't know if
I know how, and especially in his situation where you
feels like he didn't have great modeling for that right.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
A friend of mine one said, I break every iPhone
I have. Why did somebody give me a baby?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I know it's like I can't even take care of
all out, So now I have this human. Well, let's
go talk to him and see what we can do
to help him with the situation with his parents.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yes, this is Deotherapists and we'll be back after a
short break.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I'm Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists. Hi Jeff, Hi,
Hi Jeff. It's good to have you on this show.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Thanks so much for having me, and congratulations on the baby.
How old is the baby now?
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Four months old?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Are you getting any sleep?
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Not much? No?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
No?
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Is it just you?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Did you have a poet? Ye?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
My partner, yet she's tired too, Jeff.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
One of the things that stood out for me in
your letter was you use the word terrified to describe
your worry about the impact your parents might have on
your son. Can you tell us a little bit more
about really what that fear is, about what interactions they've
been with your parents so far.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Yeah, I've done some therapy myself over the last couple
of years, and I'm starting to realize that a lot
of my you know, my anxieties and insecurities and things
surrounding self worth, they stem from messages that I got
as a child. And I'm a lot more receptive now
to the the tone of voice and the messaging that
I get from my parents, whether they're you know, kind
(09:47):
of off hand like oh that's stupid, or you know,
comments about my parents or comments about others. As I
can see pretty clearly now sort of the line between
that and how I am today. I'm just I'm so scared.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Have your parents seen him yet and how has that
been they have?
Speaker 4 (10:04):
Yeah, I think I'm just like, I'm looking for those things,
for those messages for my parents, and I know when
you're looking for them, you see them. I see them
just making sort of like offhand remarks about the way
that he's dressed or just like physical appearance.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
What exactly have they said, just to give us a
flavor of what that sounds like.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, oh you look ridiculous, like in that outfit or crying,
Oh you're fine. And one of the things I think
I've seen or noticed in myself and my history with
them is like I think I got a lot of
that messaging is when I wasn't fine, I was told
that I was fine, you know, didn't feel like my
emotions were very validated. I'm so freaked out about the
(10:41):
implications of that and that messaging for my son.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
What do you do in the moment when your parents
say things like this, and more importantly, how do you feel?
Speaker 4 (10:52):
I generally just take it. When it really gets under
my skin, I respond sometimes maybe not the best way,
just kind of not angry, but just like yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever,
And I feel really really small.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
The reason that you feel all is because we all
do this around our parents at times when they trigger
something that was upsetting from our childhood. We get very
young in those moments, so it's not our adult selves
that's responding, it's our childhood self. And when you even
(11:29):
just minimize your feeling a second ago, you said, you know,
they sort of tried to tell you, No, you're not
feeling this. You just did that to yourself. You said,
well angry, No, not angry. I'll bet you get pretty angry.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
And part of that being young when we were with
our parents is that we revert to the fact that
when we were kids and this happened, we didn't have
a lot of options. We couldn't just get up and go,
for example, and then we maintain that in our adulthood
we feel like helpless and paralyzed and I have to
take it. Part of what happens when we get into
(12:06):
that young mental space because we're with our parents and
we revert back to childhood as we feel as helpless
and lacking in resources as we did when we were
indeed helpless and lacking in resources, even though now we're
not how much you can identify feeling that feeling of
helplessness and that you just have to take it because
(12:27):
there's not much you can actually do as an adult.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
I feel that fully, yeah one. And I don't want
to rock the boat with them, and I see how
this is problematic, but I don't want to make them
question how they raised me and feel bad in that sense.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
They don't necessarily have to feel bad, But why not
alert them to the fact that you didn't and still
don't like to be spoken to that way.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Because I know how much it would hurt me and
how terrible I would feel if I got that messaging
from somebody.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
There's a lot of blurring of the lines between how
your parents would feel, how you would feel, and how
your child might feel. And so you're saying, you know,
I wouldn't like it if my child grows up and
says that to me. There's a way that patterns and
families are passed down through the generations based on how
(13:25):
each generation is raised. And I wonder if you could
tell us a little bit more about your parents and
what you know about their upbringing.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah, my father, he was raised in a family. His
father was in the Second World War and he came, yeah,
came home, started a family. And my dad just mentioned
one time that he basically just said, I was a
tank driver in the Second World War. Don't ever ask
me about it again. So you know, emotions that things
(13:58):
like that and not spoken about in that family, nor
were they in mind. And my mom, her father passed
away when she was in her thirties from alcoholism, right.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
But if there was alcoholism in the family, there probably
was a lot of erratic behavior or secrets or instability
in some way.
Speaker 4 (14:17):
Probably yeah, And so.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
She probably didn't have a lot of space for her
feelings as well. So there's a lot of similarities between
how you felt as a kid and probably how your
parents felt as children.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
That makes sense, Jeff.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
One of the things I think that's happening is that
you are justifying this paralysis that you feel by saying,
I don't want to hurt the feelings. I don't want
them to question their own parenting to me. But yet
without doing that, it's going to be is and has
been years for you of feeling really bad when you're
(14:58):
around them, and being terrified now that your son will
feel bad when he is around them. Now having a
conversation like that might not necessarily be pleasant, and perhaps
the feelings will be hurt, and perhaps they'll think back
and go oops. I mean, actually that's the best case
scenario that they think back and go oops. But to
the extent that they do, then they might actually change
(15:19):
their behavior. And I think the math here is do
you perpetuate something over many, many years? And as Laurie
was saying transgenerationally or do you actually address it because
the adult you is super clear that that's not something
that's good for you even today uncertainly wouldn't be something
that's good for your son.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Yeah. A big part of like the I guess called
the work that I've done over the last few years
is feeling like in an attempt to not have to
have that conversation, and I guess potentially like have my
feelings invalidated further as just trying to change my relationship
with that messaging, like oh, when my parents say this,
that's their childhood talking.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
But when I see you, because we can actually see you,
the hurt in your eyes indicates that's not necessarily super successful.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah, we see you were smiling and recognition at that too.
You're aware of that, and I think that's why you
wrote to us, because that hasn't been successful. Yep. I'm wondering,
given all of this, how you felt when you learned
you were going to become a father. What was the
(16:31):
pregnancy like for you and your wife?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
It was super exciting As it relates to my family, though,
I was I think afraid to tell them about the
choices that we were making and the things that we
wanted for our kid.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
What kinds of choices, just like whether we.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Were going to do a home birth or at a
hospital birth. Are we going to stay in a small
apartment or are we going to co sleep with them?
My parents are really quick to give you advice and
snap judgments. Just to avoid that, I just didn't really
tell them much about the things that we were doing
because I just wanted to be free to do the
things that my partner and I wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Right, Except you weren't exactly free because you were trapped
by having to edit yourself. Yeah, so you weren't free
at all. In fact, what I think about is that
you say in your letter you really want your child
to have a close relationship with his grandparents, and I
think you want to have a close relationship with your parents,
(17:31):
but a different one. And if you avoid them by
we're not going to tell them what we're doing with
the baby, I'm going to edit myself around them because
if they make a comment, it will devastate me, or
it will make me question myself, or it'll leave me
in a funk for two hours. Whatever it is, you're
not going to be able to have that closer relationship
(17:54):
with them, and having a baby is a real transition
in a really good time to redefine relationships for the better.
And what this really does is it really kind of
forces you to emotionally move into the adult space and say, wait,
I'm the parent now, I'm an adult now, and so
(18:17):
how can I be more of an adult around my parent?
So when your parents say we use this method with
you because we think that tough love makes people more resilient,
and you're just a sensitive millennial, well guess what. I
guess it didn't work because you are sensitive, So it
didn't make you more resilient, and they're having trouble seeing that,
(18:40):
and so I think you are too. So when you
talk about, oh, I have to be really careful about
what I say around my parents because they may say
something that will devastate me. We want to help you
get to a different place with that.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
Please do so your partner, how does she respond when
those kinds of he looks ridiculous in that? How does
she respond when they make comments like that?
Speaker 4 (19:06):
She's been pretty unfazed by it over the years. She's
just like such a kind person, gives everyone the benefit
of the doubt and that thus far it's been Oh,
they don't really mean it. They love you a lot.
But actually, right before I wrote the letter, sort of
when it first affected her, my parents made a comment
(19:27):
about like, oh, that looks ridiculous, and I saw how
much it hurt her, and that was the breaking point
for me. It's like this no longer affects just me.
I have to do something about it.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Right, And I think that your feeling has been that
it's going to be really, really difficult to do. And
I think as a son, your feeling has been I
can take it now. Whether that was wise, whether you
should be taking it or should have taken it so long,
I don't know. But as a husband and now as
(19:58):
a father, it's a fight you need to have. The
three people you mentioned in your letter that you've had
some experience in asking them to either use that language
or to not do those things. Could you tell us
a little bit about how you brought that up with
them and what the reactions were.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
Yeah, over the course of years, they had just like
constantly made comments about appearance, like you know, my body
and my brother's body, like things that we have no
control over. There was one night. Actually it was my
partner Liz. We left and she was like, it's not
okay that your parents say that. I think you're beautiful.
And I went home and I called my mom and
(20:37):
it yeah, I was a snotty, crying mess and told
her like, when you say those things, it makes me
feel really bad and I've been working really hard to
acceect and love myself for those things, and it just
really hurts. I'd appreciate it if you didn't. And her
response was something along the lines of get over it.
And she hasn't mentioned it since then, So in that way,
(21:00):
I guess it was a success. But I wish that
if I brought it up now, that we could talk
about it comfortably and like adults. But she kind of
fought back, and then it's just like it never happened.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
It's not like it never happened because she felt blamed
or criticized even though that wasn't your intention. And yet
she got the message because she hasn't brought it up since,
so the conversation did happen, but she gets so injured
she doesn't hear it. I feel hurt by this. What
she hears is you were a bad mother. And that's
(21:31):
where she starts to defend herself. But she heard it,
and so that's a start. That's an opening that gives
us a little bit of hope that maybe something different
can happen.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Yeah, And that's how I deal with things. You know,
if a friend comes to me and is like, hey,
upset me that you can come to this thing, or like, oh,
I'm a terrible friend.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Right. Instead of taking the message that your friend is saying,
I want to be closer with you and you're important
to me. And that's why I was upset by this,
you hear it as oh God, I'm a horrible person.
I think your mom do just something similar where instead
of saying, oh, my son wants to be closer with me,
she hears I'm a terrible mom.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Yeah. And I think one of the big reasons I
struggle so much with talking about it is I look
at my mom, and in so many ways I see.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Myself in what ways do you see yourself?
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Mostly in the ways that she responds to criticisms like
that she kind of shuts down, and I shut down.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
But you get defensive and say things like oh you
think you got problems?
Speaker 4 (22:36):
No, I just shut down.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
You shut down, it's self flagellate.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Do you do this with Liz? Also? Like which she
has something to bring up with you? How do you
respond to her.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
We've just had such open, honest dialogue from day one
that I feel comfortable bringing those things up. I'm trying
to get better at talking about my needs and my boundaries,
and there's been a couple times where I've mentioned them
and then the next day feel really guilty, But generally
it's very healthy, open conversation.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
That's great news, though. It is great news that you
found someone what makes you feel about yourself so differently
than your parents did. It's lovely.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
It feels really great.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, we see you tearing up. It's really meaningful to you.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
That phone conversation. That example who gave us with your mom?
Do you have an example with your dad?
Speaker 5 (23:25):
Hmmm.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
I've never really talked to him about any of that
kind of stuff before, called him out on things. He
does like to point out past mistakes and you know,
off the coff just you're so stupid, and I definitely
just I'd take it.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
So this would be new territory for you to bring
it up with him.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
Yeah, he responds the opposite way to my mom, he'll explode.
He'll just get angry and kind of run off.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
What about your brother, how has he dealt with this
as he's grown up.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
I have two brothers, and they've both kind of said
I always say those things because they want the best
for us and want us to succeed.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
But do they own the fact that it's very painful
as you do? Not at all? Do they have kids?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Is this the first grandchild?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Yeah, it's the first one.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
It sounds like there's this sense of isolation too. You
know sometimes when you grow up in a household and
there's something about the way that you felt heard or unheard,
and everybody else in the family is sort of like
it's not a big deal, right, And then you're sort
of labeled as the person who is overly sensitive or
(24:39):
problematic in some way, and so the problem becomes, oh,
it's you, because we deal with this just fine. And
I think that that probably makes you question the validity
of what you're feeling. And so you have Liz who
can say, wow, as an outsider, I saw that, and
I did not like the way your parents treated you.
(25:01):
I don't like what they said about your appearance. So
there's that reality check there, But I imagine that it
was very hard growing up when people were saying, well,
you're just sensitive, so whatever you're feeling, this hurt, this anger,
buck up.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Yeah it's tough because I you kind of summed that
up really well. But in addition to all that, I
I do feel like I was. I was maybe like
the hard kid in her family. At least I'm reminded
that I was a.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Lot because you had feelings.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Probably I struggled in junior high. You know, I dealt
with anxiety and I was depressed. I you know, I
was bullied, didn't have a lot of friends in elementary school.
When I was really young, like my son's age, Apparently
I cried a lot. My parents will tell me like
how how terrible I was as a kid because I
cried so much. On more than one occasion, they've told
(25:58):
me like they considered putting me up for adoption, which
I'm like, holy shit, Like what kind of things were
you telling me as a kid that.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I they told you that as a kid.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
They told me that as an adult, but they actually.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Said that we were thinking it's something we're putting up
adoption because you're crying so much.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, or that I was just like such a hard child.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
So you were basically labeled difficult early on for being human.
As you know, you have a baby yourself. Babies cry,
That's how they communicate. In fact, that is their survival mechanism.
So if a baby is uncomfortable in any way, they're hungry,
they're tired, they're saying, hey, I need help, come here,
(26:40):
comfort me. That's the only way they can communicate. And
so it sounds like, from even being a newborn, your
parents are saying, we don't want that kind of communication.
We want happy, pleasant communication, and anything else is quote
unquote difficult. And I wonder what it's like for you
(27:02):
now when your son cries, what comes up in you.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Just like patient with them and hold them and tell
them that it's okay and that I love him anyways.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Do you notice what you said, I love him anyways
like I love you, despite the fact you're doing this
very normal thing. So just to notice how much your
parents have seeped into you. It's it's just you're showing
him that I love you and let me help you here.
I know you're calling out to me for help, and
(27:34):
your son is not being difficult there's not loving him
despite the fact that he's crying. And I think that
part of the reason that's still in you is because
you haven't accepted that in yourself. That the work here
is really about how are you going to reframe for yourself,
whether you are a person who is difficult, whether you
(27:57):
are too much. I think you have this sense of
I'm too much. I don't want to approach my parents
about this because that will be too much.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Yeah. And you know, over the last few years of
realizing that I deal with normal human things and talking
about them with friends and be like, oh, you know,
I X, Y Z, And then the next day I'd
be like, I shouldn't have told them those things, Like
I'm just like I feel like, oh, I probably lost
them as a friend because I burden them with my feelings.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Again, I stop, you burden them with your feelings, Yeah,
because that's the unfortunate legacy of your upbringing, that feelings
are burdensome, they make you a difficult child, one worthy
perhaps of considering adoption, because this kid has just things
called feelings, and they're making a mess. When you have
(28:50):
these wounds which you carry with you, and the wounds
are still there, and you're getting freshly wounded each time
you interact with your parents. There is nothing you can
do to reframe that, to manage that, to dismiss it,
that will make that not hurt. And I think that
(29:12):
this idea of let me go to therapy so I
can learn how to tolerate and not be too upset
when you tell me that you went home and you
called your mum and I think you said you were
a blubbering, sobbing miss. And this is an adult and
this is recent. It's the proof right that this still hurts.
(29:32):
And it does, Jeff, because it should, because when somebody
speaks to you that way and treats you that way,
especially with the history, it has to hurt. You said, yes,
I think I'm strong enough to do it for my son.
Now I would love you to be strong enough to
do it for yourself, and your son can benefit from that.
But it's you that really needs to be able to
(29:55):
do it. You're the one that needs to be able
to communicate to your parents. You, guys, I can't keep
hurting every time I'm around you. It's not something I
want to keep doing, and I'm sure it's not something
you want to keep doing.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah. Thing about feelings in your household was that feelings
were dangerous, Feelings were messy, Feelings made people uncomfortable. And
what I think your parents couldn't see because of the
way they grew up where feelings were also dangerous and
uncomfortable and messy and inconvenient, was that when you had feelings,
(30:32):
it was about them and their inability to tolerate their
own feelings. So when you had feelings, it brought up
feelings in them. You cried. They thought, Oh no, maybe
I'm a bad parent. My kid's unhappy. I don't know
how to do that. I need to have my kid
be happy so that I feel good about myself and
(30:53):
as a parent myself, I can say. A million feelings
come up. There's that warm like I want to take
care of you and I want to help you. And
there's also that oh my god, the baby's crying again.
When am I ever going to sleep? And like is
this normal? Is my baby healthy? Am I doing everything right?
Speaker 3 (31:09):
You know?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
All of those things are coming up, and to be
able to sit with those feelings, you have to really
move into that place of I've dealt with my childhood
and I'm making sure that I'm separating out my own
relationship with feelings that was in my house when I
was growing up with how I feel about that now.
(31:32):
And your parents hadn't done that work, so they weren't
able to do that. But you have begun that work,
and you do have the opportunity to do that, and
so you won't be in this place of overcompensating. Like, okay,
so when my son is crying, I have to only
feel like these warm, loving feelings toward my child. You
can also feel this is really hard. I can't believe
(31:56):
the kid is crying again, right, Like, that's okay to
feel that. You know, you'll respond to your child and
you'll fold him and feed him and change a staper
or whatever needs to happen. But you can also say
to Liz like, know, hey, you got this one. I know,
or she'll say to you, you got this one right,
And that's okay to have these moments of you know, God,
(32:16):
this is really hard, I wish this kid would just
leave me alone for an hour. And also love your
kid with you know, every fiber of your being. And
both of those things are true. Your parents couldn't integrate
those two things.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Yeah, we do have some advice for you, and I
think what we need to preface and say is that
(32:59):
what's important here is what you can message to them,
the clarity with which you'll do it, and which will
be necessary to maintain it. The mark of whether they
hear you is not going to occur in the moment.
It's going to occur when they change or not their behavior,
(33:23):
because that's what happened in that incident with your mom.
She kind of heard it, that made excuses and rebuffed,
but then she stopped saying that thing that you asked
her to stop saying. Sort Of the conversation itself would
probably not be a good indication about whether you got through.
It might be, but you're going to have to reserve
judgment until you see what changes in terms of behavior.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Okay, Jeff, I was thinking about how in your family,
resilience meant that you don't have feelings, and the reality
is that you become more resilient when you can actually
feel your feelings. That's a lesson that you've learned as
you've moved into adulthood, and one of your roles as
(34:06):
a parent is to be that child's teacher, and as
you move into this more adult place with your feelings,
which is not the helpless place you were as a child,
but the more empowered place, a place we have agency
to respond differently and to do something different with those
feelings as an adult. That's a lesson that you're learning
(34:28):
for yourself, and you can also be a teacher of
those lessons to the rest of your family.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, your parents don't really understand this feelings thing, and
you do. And do you understand how human that makes you,
how important that is? And this is something that you
need to teach them. They might not be the most
(35:00):
willing students, but this is something you need to come
at as a son who's understood something and learns something
about life. They have not, and this is your attempt
to teach them that. And why we're emphasizing this aspect
of teacher because when you embody that, it gives you
(35:22):
a different stature, It gives you a different kind of
emotional resiliency in that moment because you're coming from a
place of wisdom. I know something Mom and Dad that
you don't and that you really should, So I'm going
to try and convey it to you. You don't say that,
but that's the mindset with which you approach them, and
we think you need to speak to them separately because
(35:45):
they are so similar in their orientation, they would just
reinforce one another and then it would be very difficult
to get through. So we think you should start with
your mom and then talk with your dad soon thereafter.
Would like you to say, mom, being a dad myself
has given me a lot of thoughts about my life.
(36:06):
And I recognize really clearly that you and Ed thought
that by issuing these kinds of comments and criticisms, I
should be able to take it and it will toughen
me up. But as you know, I'm a sensitive millennial,
so that didn't quite work. And then you'll say, and
(36:30):
I am so glad it didn't, because I can experience
my feelings and I can be in touch with them,
and because I am, I have a request for you.
I want to feel closer to you, and I want
my son to feel close to you, and so I
need you to change your strategy. I need you to
(36:53):
understand that when you criticize me and put me down,
even if it's sometimes jokingly, it actually hurts. And I
don't want to hurt when I am with you, and
I know you don't want me to, So I'm asking
you to do something really difficult, and that is change
a habit you have, and I want you to instead
(37:17):
of pointing out deficits, I want you to be supportive.
I want you to be loving, I want you to
be encouraging. Those are things I want to hear from you,
And those are the things I want my son to
hear from you.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
And you can say to them that those comments don't
make me stronger. They actually make me weaker. When I
feel your love, your approval, your appreciation, your respect, that's
what makes me stronger.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Who boy, can you tell us more about the Who boy?
You just kind of out of there.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
I'm just going over all the things in my head
of like how they're going to respond, which I shouldn't
because that's what's kept me from saying things in the past.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
But when you do go over them in your head,
it makes you feel what so scared? Scared?
Speaker 4 (38:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
What's the scary thing that can happen?
Speaker 4 (38:20):
Just having them not be receptive to it or downplay.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
It or And if you are a teacher, Jeff, are
you scared if your students don't quite get it yet?
That is that a scary thing. Nope, right, it's not.
And you're a teacher here.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
It's so hard to break out of the child parent
thing and see them as an equal adult where I
can teach.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
They're not equal. You are a teacher to them, is
my point. And that's the point too. If you try
to see them as equal, it's difficult. You need to
see them as not knowing something very fundamental that you do.
And Jeff, this is not a one time lesson. This
is a lesson that's going to have to be repeated.
You're going to have to assume this with them for
(39:10):
a long time. And it's time you did assument because
somebody should, right.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
So instead of approaching them from that place of like
when your mom hurt you before, we're not saying don't
feel that you will feel what you felt as a child.
That's okay. It's normal to feel hurt when somebody says
something hurtful, especially people that you love, especially people that
you feel like they're not seeing who you are or
(39:36):
appreciating who you are. And so instead of responding from
that place, it's very tender for you, and it takes
you back to that old state of mind that I
can't do anything about this. You are a parent now
and you have choices. So if they don't heed what
you say in the moment when something happens, like they say, oh,
(39:56):
you know, the baby looks so funny, you may have
to for a second be the child in your mind.
Go through that in your mind. Okay, here's my reaction
as the helpless child. But now I'm a teacher and
these people need me to teach them so thing, and
you can say, very gently, I'm reminding you that it
would feel so much better if you would say, hey,
(40:16):
he looks so adorable. Those comments would make me feel stronger,
would make my son feel stronger, and would also bring
us closer to you. And so, no matter what comes
(40:36):
out of these conversations, the good news that we're hearing
is that already you're being a good parent to yourself,
that you understand the importance of feeling something and acknowledging
those feelings and acknowledging those feelings in other people. And
that's what's going to make you a good parent to yourself,
(41:00):
to your son, and to your parents who need a
little bit of reparenting.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yes, Jeff, one more thing might get upset your Dad
might get angry, and if I get you correctly, that
will make you feel after the fact guilty. And I
want to let you know that your thermostat for guilt
(41:26):
is set a little low. It's not really correct, so
you will feel guilty when you should not, and so
you're going to have to disregard it because you're going
to feel afterwards, especially if there was a bruhaha, which
they might be like, oh, their feelings might be hurt,
they might be upset, they might be bewildered. They'll get
over it because they do care about you and you
(41:48):
care about them. But you do have to say to yourself,
this was necessary. I didn't do anything wrong. In fact,
I did something hugely important. And by the way, not
just for me, not just for my son, not just
for Liz, but for my brothers and for their future children,
because I'm enough to be the teacher here and I
(42:11):
am taking that mental.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, and you're giving your parents a gift that they
didn't have growing up. They never had someone say it
is okay to feel this, and this is how people
get closer.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
See we just even just apologizing for your tears. That's
that message that you got that it's not okay to
feel So how do you feel about trying this this week?
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (42:46):
I so don't want to, but I know that it's necessary.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Well, So when you say I so don't want to,
who's talking the child or the teacher?
Speaker 4 (42:53):
The child, of course, the child.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
So I want to ask the teacher. I want to
ask the teacher. Yes, how do you feel about trying
this out this week? Knowing what you know about life
and how important this lesson is?
Speaker 4 (43:07):
Ah, I recognize the importance of it. I do not
look forward to it, but I understand how important it is,
especially for my son and my partner and as you say,
my siblings, which I yeah, I hadn't even thought about
in this equation, but that's necessary and something I have
to do.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Let me just reframe it one more time for you.
I want to ask you the question again, but I
want to orient it differently. Imagine you're going to talk
to your son about this one day when he's able
to understand it. Right, So you're giving him that message
anyway by the way you treat him, by the way
you acknowledge his feelings, by the way you and Liz
interact with him. But one day, somewhat beside your parents,
(43:53):
is going to give your son the message is not
okay to feel somebody in the world will do that,
And you, as his teacher, are going to have a
conversation with him when he comes to you and says that.
Do you feel about having that conversation with him?
Speaker 4 (44:13):
Empowered?
Speaker 5 (44:15):
Yeah, just to be able to just to be able
to pass that ability along to my son, It's just
it's something I've struggled with so much for my whole life,
and to be able to give that to him and
seems like a gift and to create.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
A different legacy for him.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
And so when you think about being the teacher and
having this conversation with your parents, that's the perspective that
we want you to take. Remember you're the teacher, and
I know it's a lot of recalibration for you, separating
(44:59):
the little boy that you were from the wise teacher
that you've become.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Thank you for the encouragement.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Well, but Jeff, it's completely true. Just think from it.
How much more sophisticated emotionally are you than they are?
How much more of an understanding of emotions do you
have than they do? I mean, it's a gulf. You
recognize that right that you are in a position to
talk about emotions in a way that's far knowledgeable than
(45:31):
they are.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Yeah, it's just so hard to break out of the
just the idea that your parents are above you and
have it all figured out and that you have could
ever possibly teach them something.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
What you're doing here is not just teaching your parents.
You're reparenting yourself. Yeah, you're being a good parent to yourself.
And you have a choice every time you go back
into that place of oh, I can't do this, or
to take a breath and say, wait a minute, I
(46:04):
need to learn how to be a good parent to
myself because the stakes are very high. If I can't
be a good parent to myself, no matter how good
my intentions are, I will not be a good parent
to my son. So I have to do this first
with myself in order to give my son the thing
(46:26):
that I want to give him more than anything else
in the world.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
Yeah, it's true, that's all I want to give him.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
You will do this, You will have this conversation. It
will go as it will go, but you will do
your best after you've had it, and after you know
how difficult it was to have. How impressed wul yourself?
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Will you be very proud?
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Good? So yes, do it and then feel really proud
of yourself for doing it.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
And I want to say one last thing. You mentioned
that that time that your parents made a comment about
your appearance, that it was Liz who said to you
that's not okay. And you then went home and called
and said I didn't like that, right, and then the
behavior stopped. The conversation didn't go swimmingly, but the behavior stopped.
(47:23):
I want you to as part of this and liszt Liz,
just to let her know that you're doing this, so
that you have that support going in. We want you
to tell her before you make these calls. Here's what
I'm going to do. Here's the rationale behind it. Here
is my role as a teacher. Here is how that's
(47:45):
going to help me become a better parent to myself,
which in turn will make me a better parent to
our child. Here's how it's going to help you. Here's
how it's going to help my brothers. And here's how
in some way it will help my parents.
Speaker 4 (48:05):
I can do this.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Great good. Thank you, Okay, Well, we look forward to
hearing what happens, and remember we'll be rooting for you.
Speaker 4 (48:16):
Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to
talk with me.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
I liked him a lot, a lot. Yeah, what a
lovely person, and I'm so glad he found a lovely wife. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
He was in such a common predicament with being sort
of caught between the childhood self and the adult self
that he's started to grow into.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
And what you have to do in that scenario is
you have to use your adult self to do something
that feels really unnatural and really scary, but it's in
the doing of it that you become the adult.
Speaker 4 (48:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
I'm really glad that he has Liz because I think
she's going to be a great support for him when
the child walks into the metaphorical classroom and the teachers
trying to talk.
Speaker 3 (49:07):
And I'm really glad he has his son because his
son has forced him to grow up.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
I think for him having that conversation that he's so
afraid to have will be such a growth experience that
it will make it all worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
Yeah, this is one of those things where you see
the benefit in the long term.
Speaker 3 (49:28):
You're listening to deer therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
So we heard back from Jeff, and I'm really looking
forward to this one. I hope it went well for him.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Yeah, that was not an easy role reversal we were
asking him to try. So let's go hear what happened.
Speaker 4 (49:54):
Hey, Louri, Hey guy, it's Jeff. So I did it.
I had the conversations that I never thought I'd be
able to have with my folks. Leading up to it,
I was super nervous, like nauseous even, but after talking
it through with Liz, realized that that was the child
in me, not the adult or the teacher. As you
had mentioned, I had to really remain mindful and remind
(50:18):
myself that I was doing the right thing and that
it's okay to express those needs and those feelings. I
approached both of the conversations as you had mentioned, that
I've thought a lot about what it means to be
a parent and a child, and that I understand their
criticisms and the way that they raised us to not
acknowledge hard feelings, that that was just their way of
(50:39):
fostering strength and resilience in us, and that while I
appreciate and love them for all that they've done for me,
that those comments and flippant dismissals of concerns and feelings
that I that I have and that people have are
not okay, That they hurt and they can make them
feel really small or invalid, and that in the future,
(50:59):
I'd appreciate it if they could be mindful of those
things and either don't say anything at all or instead
act in ways that uplift and encourage, especially as it
relates to their grandchild. The conversation with my mom didn't
go so great. There were moments where she'd said, like,
you should know that I really love you, and her
(51:21):
saying like, okay, okay, I'll try. But she told me
that I don't really have it that bad, and that
I'm being too sensitive and that I'm essentially asking her
and my father to censor themselves. She said it's naive
or even foolish for me to ask for someone to
change their character, and that she doesn't want to have
to constantly have to think about what she says in
(51:41):
front of me, and that if we raise our son
like this, that he won't be able to take negative
feedback as he gets older. So I think I had
a lot of hope that it'd be this magical conversation
and I would finally feel seen, but I really didn't.
It was really hard. I felt like I did a
pretty good job in standing my ground, and I'm proud
(52:04):
of myself for not backing down on my needs and
feelings and trying my best to remember that these are
reasonable requests. I wasn't a blubbering mess, but I did
leave the conversation feeling really upside down, and the child
within me felt really invalidated. The conversation with my father, thankfully,
it went really well. He was really gracious and kind.
(52:28):
He listened, He acknowledged that he can be this way,
and he apologized for it. Said that it was never
his intention to make me feel small or shamed, but
that it was a misguided way of showing affection, poking fun,
and that he'll be more mindful of it with me
and around his grandson. He noted that he's always had
a hard time talking about feelings, especially difficult ones, and
(52:50):
said he was really encouraged and happy to see that
I'm getting better at doing it myself. I left that
conversation feeling proud, relieved, and hopeful for the future. I mean,
don't get me wrong, I've got an emotional hangover that's
going to last a week, but I feel that I've
done something incredibly important for myself and for my family,
(53:11):
maid some groundwork so I feel more comfortable expressing myself
and setting boundaries. I just want to say thanks again
for helping me to see that the approach I was
taking changing my relationship with pain rather than actively working
to heal that I wasn't working for me. But you
made me feel seen and heard, and you gave me
the encouragement to feel like I could have those conversations
with my parents and that it was normal, that I'm
(53:34):
normal and it's reasonable to ask for those things. So
thank you so much. Thanks LORI, Thanks Guy.
Speaker 1 (53:43):
Well. What people can't see is that while we're listening
to this voicemail, you and I were nodding and smiling
a lot. And I think that's because even though the
conversation with his mother was very difficult, it's still set
the groundwork for some internal work that he's doing himself,
where he is being the teacher and yes, the child
(54:05):
part of him felt wounded by that conversation, and the
child part of him felt gratified by the conversation with
his father. But I think when he goes back into
the teacher position, what came out of it was a
different way of viewing himself, his place as a parent,
his place as a husband, his place as a son,
(54:28):
and that he really has something very valuable to teach
everyone in his family, but particularly himself.
Speaker 3 (54:35):
Yes, that conversation with his mom didn't go well, that
groundwork was established, as he said, the groundwork for him
to give her a look the next time she does it,
and for her to give him a look, but pause
and maybe not do it for the third time. And
so I think that he actually accomplished more than he realized, right.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
And also the fact that the father was so receptive
to this and was able to really listen for Jeff.
He had not felt listened to it all by his parents,
and so to have his father really take that in
and apologize and say I'm going to be mindful of this.
I think. I think that when the mother does this again,
now he's got the father a little bit on board,
(55:15):
and that will be very helpful too.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
And I think the bottom line here is that it's
never too late to change a family dynamic, even once
you're an adult. The way family dynamics work is that
if one person creates a real shift, it forces the
other people to shift as well, and that's what Jeff
did here. Hey fellow travelers, if you've used any of
(55:41):
our advice from the podcast in your own life, send
us a quick voice memo to Luriandguy at iHeartMedia dot
com and tell us about it. We may include it
in a future show that brings us to the end
of our show. For this week. Thank you so much
for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please take a
moment to rate and review it.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
You can follow us both online. I'm at lorigottlib dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb
one or an in Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Our executive producers, Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by
Mike Johns Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our
podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 3 (56:36):
Next week, a woman copes with her husband's infidelity.
Speaker 4 (56:40):
It has come out and therapy that the relations have
been with men. However, my husband is very closed off
and kind of just wanted.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
To go away. Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
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