July 30, 2024 • 54 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. Jeff's parents have always been critical--making negative comments about everything from his appearance and intelligence to his being "too sensitive"—and as an adult, Jeff has tried not to let these hurtful words get to him. But now that he's a new father, he's worried about the impact that his parents' constant criticism will have on his child. We help him move past his fear of confronting his parents in his new role as a parent himself.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy Called Him for Ted and this is Dear Therapists.
This week, a new father worries that his parents constant
criticisms will be as damaging to his child as they
(00:24):
were to him. I called my mom and it was
a snotty, crying mess and told her, when you say
those things, it makes me feel really bad. And I've
been working really hard to accept myself and love myself,
and it just really hurts. I'd appreciate if you didn't.
And her response was something along the lines of get
over it, listen in, and maybe learn something about yourself
(00:46):
in the process. Hey, just a note before we start.
Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. It always seek the advice of your physician,
mental health professional, or other qualified health provider with any
questions you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting
(01:10):
a letter you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use
it in part or and full, and we may edit
it for length and or clarity. Hi guy, Hi Lorie.
So what do we have today? Well, today we have
a letter from a guy who has some very critical
parents and he doesn't know how to deal with them.
(01:31):
Here's what he wrote, Dear Therapists, over the last few years,
I've put in a lot of work when it comes
to understanding my parents and my relationship to them. They
are quite critical and judgmental, quick to say that you
or someone else is being stupid, or your appearance looks funny.
They love to give their unsolicited opinions and could be
quite antagonistic when people don't do things as they do.
(01:55):
While in the company of others, they will jump at
the opportunity to tell embarrassing stories of my past, remind
me of times I tried and came up short, and
point out anything they can about something quote wrong I
may be doing in the moment. I know my parents
are loving and caring and either don't know how to
show this or have very odd ways of doing so.
I have come to learn that this is more a
(02:15):
reflection of their own insecurities and care that was lacking
in their own upbringing. I try to be mindful of
this and not let it impact my own self worth.
The problem is young kids don't know this, and I
am the proud parent of a newborn child. I very
much want my family to be a big part of
my child's life, but I am absolutely terrified of their
(02:35):
feedback and criticism slowly chipping away at the self esteem
of my child. I know I can't shelter my child
from all criticisms and personalities in life, nor would I
want to. But the grandparent grandchild relationship should be a
safe space of love, empowerment, and emotional validation, things that
may have been lacking in my own childhood. My parents
are also of the generation where they think tough love
(02:57):
and harsh criticism build healthy, resilient to adults. They like
to go on at length about how we're all sensitive
millennials now. In the past, when I've tried to make
it known how their words and actions made me feel,
it sometimes came with an apology, but not without an
added but you're too sensitive, or you think you've got problems.
I worry that any concerns I voice won't be taken
(03:19):
seriously or worse that they'll be stubborn and double down
with their dated my house, my rule's attitude. You can
probably guess from my letter that I can be quick
to skirt conflict and appease others. But that doesn't seem
like the healthy way to go about this. How can
I protect my child? Thank you, jeff So. The transition
to parenthood. Right when you have your first child and
(03:41):
you transition to being a parent, it brings up pretty
much every psychological conflict you might have had ever in
your life, because it brings up your feelings about the
parenting that you receive from your parents, what kind of
parents you will be. It radically changes your sense of identity.
So that's a huge life event that just brings up
(04:03):
so many feelings. Yeah, it does. There's this really famous
paper by Selma Frayberg called The Ghost in the Nursery,
and it's about how when we have our kids, we
start to relive a lot of the experiences that we
had as kids that maybe we hadn't thought about in
a very long time. And it's always that thing where
(04:24):
you say, I'm not going to do it the way
my parents did, and then you find yourself doing exactly
the thing that you said you wouldn't. I wonder if
there's some bit of him that maybe he's not aware
of yet, that worries that he might do something to
his own child that he doesn't want to. Maybe it
doesn't look the same as what his parents did, but
(04:44):
that somehow he's going to fall short when it comes
to him and his own child. What a lot of
people don't recognize it is an absolutely terrifying responsibility. When
as therapist, people tell us that they've had a newborn
and they start talking about the feels that they have,
it's very very common, except it's not something that people
express to their friends like, oh, my goodness, I'm gonna
(05:07):
break my kid. A lot of people will talk about, oh,
I'm not sleeping, or those aspects of having a newborn.
But I remember when I had my son, people weren't
really talking about the fact that you're handed this human
that you are now responsible for in every way and
you've never done it before, and that is terrifying. And
(05:30):
so when I started talking about that with other people,
it felt like, oh, I'm not the only one. Oh
you felt this way too, And so I think that
Jeff needs to understand that it's very normal to feel
like I want to do right by this little person
and I don't know if I know how, and especially
in his situation where he feels like he didn't have
(05:51):
great modeling for that right. A friend of mine one said,
I break every iPhone I have. Why did somebody give
me a baby? I know, it's like I can't even
take care of the layout. So now I have this human. Well,
let's go talk to him and see what we can
do to help him with the situation with his parents. Yes,
(06:15):
this is Dear Therapists and we'll be back after a
short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and
this is de A Therapists. Hi Jeff, Hi, Hi Jeff.
It's good to have you on this show. Thanks so
(06:35):
much for having me, and congratulations on the baby. How
old is the baby now? Four months old? Are you
getting any sleep? And not much? No? Is it just you?
Did you have a partner? My partner, she's tired too, Jeff.
One of the things that stood out for me in
your letter was used the word terrified to describe you
(06:55):
worry about the impact your parents might have on your
on Can you tell us a little bit more about
really what that there is, about what interactions they have
been with your parents so far. Yeah, I've done some
therapy myself over the last couple of years, and I'm
starting to realize that a lot of my you know,
my anxieties and insecurities and things surrounding self worth, they
(07:19):
stem from messages that I got as as a child.
And I'm a lot more receptive now to the the
tone of voice and the messaging that I get from
my parents, whether they're you know, kind of off hand
like oh that's stupid, or you know, comments about my
appearance or comments about others. As I can see pretty
clearly now sort of the line between that and how
I am today. I'm just I'm so scared. I have
(07:41):
your parents seen him yet, and how has that been
they have? Yeah, I think I'm just like, I'm looking
for those things, for those messages for my parents, and
you know, when you're looking for them, you see them.
I see them just making sort of like offhand remarks
about the way that he's dressed or just like physical appearance.
Would exactly have they said? Just to give is a
flavor of what that sounds like yeah, um, oh you
(08:03):
look ridiculous, like in that outfit or crying, Oh, you're fine.
And one of the things I think I've seen or
noticed myself and my history with them is like I
think I got a lot of that messaging is when
I wasn't fine, I was told that I was fine.
You know, I didn't feel like my emotions were very validated.
I'm so freaked out about the implications of that and
(08:24):
that messaging for my son. What do you do in
the moment when your parents say things like this, and
more importantly, how do you feel? I generally just take
it when it really gets under my skin, I really
respond sometimes maybe not the best way, just kind of uh,
I'm not angry, but just like yeah, yeah, yeah whatever,
(08:46):
And I feel really really small. The reason that you
feel small is because we all do this around our
parents at times when they trigger something that was upsetting
from our childhood. We get very young in those moments,
so it's not our adult selves that's responding, it's our
(09:06):
childhood self. And we knew even just minimized your feeling
a second ago. You said, you know, they sort of
tried to tell you, no, you're not feeling this. You
just did that to yourself. You said, well, angry, No,
not angry. I'll bet you get pretty angry. Yeah, totally.
And part of that being young when we were with
(09:28):
our parents is that we revert to the fact that
when we were kids and this happened, we didn't have
a lot of options. We couldn't just get up and go,
for example, and then we maintain that in our adulthood
we feel like helpless and paralyzed and I have to
take it. Part of what happens when we get into
that young mental space because we're with our parents and
(09:51):
we revert back to childhood as we feel as helpless
and lacking in resources as we did when we were
indeed helpless and lacking in resource is even though now
we're not how much you can identify feeling that feeling
of helplessness and that you just have to take it
because there's not much you can actually do as an adult.
(10:11):
I feel that fully, yeah, And I don't want to
rock the boat with them, and I see how this
is problematic, but I don't want to make them question
how they raised me and feel bad. In that sense,
they don't necessarily have to feel bad, but why not
alert them to the fact that you didn't and still
(10:32):
don't like to be spoken to that way because I
know how much it would hurt me and how terrible
I would feel if I got that messaging from somebody.
There's a lot of blurring b of the lines between
how your parents would feel, how you would feel, and
(10:52):
how your child might feel. And so you're saying, you know,
I wouldn't like it if my child grows up and
says that to me. There's a way that patterns and
families are passed down through the generations based on how
each generation is raised. And I wonder if you could
tell us a little bit more about your parents and
(11:15):
what you know about their upbringing. Yeah, my father, he
was raised in a family. His father was in the
Second World War and he came came home and started
a family. And my dad just mentioned one time that
he basically just said, I was I was a tank
driver in the in the Second World War. Don't ever
ask me about it again. So, you know, emotions things
(11:40):
like that and not spoken about in that family, nor
were they in mine. And my mom her father passed
away when she was in her thirties from alcoholism, So right,
if there was alcoholism and the family, there probably was
a lot of erratic behavior or secrets or instability in
some way. Probably, yeah, And so she probably didn't have
(12:02):
a lot of space for her feelings as well. So
there's a lot of similarities between how you felt as
a kid and probably how your parents felt as children.
That makes sense, Jeff. One of the things I think
that's happening is that you are justifying this paralysis that
(12:23):
you feel by saying I don't want to hurt their feelings,
that don't want them to question their own parenting to me.
But yet without doing that, it's going to be is
and has been years for you of feeling really bad
when you're around them, and being terrified now that your
son will feel bad when he is around them. Now
(12:46):
having a conversation like that might not necessarily be pleasant,
and perhaps the feelings will be hurt, and perhaps they
will think back and go oops. I mean, actually that's
the best case scenario, that they think back and go oops.
But to the extent that they do, then they might
actually change their behavior. And I think the math here
is do you perpetuate something of a many many years?
And as Lorie was saying, transgenerationally or do you actually
(13:12):
address it because the adult you was super clear that
that's not something that's good for you even today uncertainly
wouldn't be something that's good for your son. Yeah. A
big part of like the I guess called the work
that I've done over the last few years is feeling
like in an attempt to not have to have that conversation,
and I guess potentially like have my feelings invalidated further
(13:34):
as just trying to change my relationship with that messaging
like oh, when my parents say this, that's their childhood talking.
But when I see you, because we can actually see
the hurt in your eyes, indicates that's not necessarily super successful. No, No,
it's not. Yeah, we see you were smiling and recognition
(13:55):
at that too. You're aware of that, and I think
that's why you wrote to us, because that hasn't been successful. Yep.
I'm wondering, given all of this, how you felt when
you learned you were going to become a father. What
was the pregnancy like for you and your wife? It
(14:16):
was super exciting as it relates to my family, though
I was I think afraid to tell them about the
choices that we were making and the things that we
wanted for for our kids. What kinds of choices, um,
just like whether we were going to do a home
birth or at a hospital birth. Are we going to
stay in a small apartment or are we going to
co sleep with them? My parents are really quick to
(14:38):
give you advice and snap judgments. Just to avoid that,
I just didn't really tell them much about the things
that we were doing because I just wanted to be
free to do the things that my partner and I
wanted to do. Right, Except you weren't exactly free because
you were trapped by having to edit yourself. Yeah, so
(14:58):
you weren't free at all. In fact, what I think
about is that you say in your letter you really
want your child to have a close relationship with his grandparents,
and I think you want to have a close relationship
with your parents, but a different one. And if you
avoid them by we're not going to tell them what
we're doing with the baby, I'm going to edit myself
(15:20):
around them because if they make a comment, it will
devastate me, or it will make me um question myself,
or it'll leave me in a funk for two hours.
Whatever it is, you're not going to be able to
have that closer relationship with them, and having a baby
is a real transition in a really good time to
(15:42):
redefine relationships for the better. And what this really does
is it really kind of forces you to emotionally move
into the adult space and say, wait, I'm the parent now,
I'm an adult now, and so how can I be
more of an adult around my parents? So when your
(16:03):
parents say, we use this method with you because we
think that tough love makes people more resilient, and you're
just a sensitive millennial, well guess what. I guess it
didn't work because you are sensitive, So it didn't make
you more resilient, and they're having trouble seeing that, and
so I think you are too. So when you talk about, oh,
(16:25):
I have to be really careful about what I say
around my parents because they may say something that will
devastate me. We want to help you get to a
different place with that. Please do so. Your partner, how
does she respond when those kinds of he looks ridiculous
in that? How does she respond when they make comments
(16:46):
like that? She's been pretty unfazed by it over the years.
She's just like such a kind person, gives everyone the
benefit of the doubt, and thus far it's been Oh,
they don't really mean it, they love you a lot.
But actually, right before I wrote the letter, sort of
when it first affected her and my parents made a
(17:08):
comment about like that looks ridiculous, and I saw how
much it hurt her, and that was the breaking point
for me. It's like this no longer effects just me.
You have to do something about it, right, And I
think that your feeling has been that it's going to
be really, really difficult to do. And I think as
a son, your feeling has been I can take it now.
(17:31):
Whether that was wise, whether you should be taking it
or should have taken it so long, I don't know.
But as a husband and now as a father, it's
a fight you need to have. The three people you
mentioned in your letter that you've have some experience in
asking them to either use that language or to do
(17:51):
those things. Could you tell us a little bit about
how you brought that up with them and what the
reactions were. Yeah, over the core some years they had
just like constantly made comments about appearance, like you know,
my body and my brother's body, like things that we
have no control over. There was one night, actually it
was my partner, Liz. We left and she was like,
(18:12):
it's not okay that your parents say that. I think
you're beautiful. And I went home and I and I
called my mom and it, yeah, it was a snotty,
crying mess and told her like, when you say those things,
it makes me feel really bad and I've been working
really hard to exact I love myself for those things,
and it just really hurts. I'd appreciate if you didn't.
(18:34):
And her response was something along the lines of get
over it. And she hasn't mentioned it since then, So
in that way, I guess it was a success. But
I wish that if I brought it up now that
we could talk about it comfortably and like adults. But
she kind of fought back, and then it's just like
it never happened. It's not like it never happened because
she felt blamed or criticized even though that wasn't your intention.
(18:58):
And yet she out the message because she hasn't brought
it up since, so the conversation did happen, but she
gets so injured she doesn't hear it. I feel hurt
by this. What she hears is you were a bad mother,
and that's where she starts to defend herself, but she
heard it, and so that's a start. That's an opening
that gives us a little bit of hope that maybe
(19:21):
something different can happen. And that's how I deal with things.
You know, if a friend comes to me and it's like, hey,
upset me that you can come to this thing, or
I'm like, oh, I'm a terrible friend. Right. Instead of
taking the message that your friend is saying, I want
to be closer with you and you're important to me,
and that's why I was upset by this, you hear
(19:44):
it as oh god, I'm a horrible person. I think
your mom does something similar where instead of saying, oh,
my son wants to be closer with me, she hears
I'm a terrible mom. And I think one of the
big reasons I struggle so much with talking about it
as I look at my mom and in so many
ways I see myself in what ways do you see yourself?
(20:05):
Mm hmm. Mostly in the ways that she responds to
criticisms like that she kind of shuts down and and
I shut down. But you get defensive and say things like, oh,
you think you've got problems. No, I just shut down,
you shut down and self lagellate. Right? Do you do
this with with Liz? Also, like when she has something
(20:26):
to bring up with you, how do you respond to her.
We've just had such open, honest dialogue from day one
that I feel comfortable bringing those things up. I'm trying
to get better at talking about my needs and my boundaries,
and there's been a couple of times where I've mentioned
them and and then the next day feel really guilty.
But generally it's very healthy, open conversation. That's great news, though.
(20:47):
It is great news that you found someone that makes
you feel about yourself so differently than your parents did.
It's lovely. It feels really great. Yeah, yeah, we see
you tearing up. It's really meaningful to you, that phone conversation.
That example he gave us with your mom. Do you
have an example with your dad? Mm hmmm. I've never
(21:08):
really talked to him about any of that kind of
stuff before, called him out on things. He does like
to point out past mistakes and you know, off the cuff,
just he're so stupid and I definitely just take it.
So this would be new territory for you to bring
it up with him. Yeah, he responds the opposite way
to my mom, he'll explode. He'll just get angry and
(21:32):
kind of run off. What about your brother, how has
he dealt with this as he's grown up. I have
two brothers, and they've both kind of said, always say
those things because they want the best for us, who
want us to succeed. But do they own the fact
that it's very painful as you do? Not at all?
(21:52):
Do they have kids? Is this the first grandchild? Yeah,
it's the first one. It sounds like there's this sense
of isolation to you know, sometimes when you grow up
in a household and there's something about the way that
you felt hurt or unheard, and everybody else in the
family is sort of like it's not a big deal, right,
(22:13):
And then you're sort of labeled as the person who
is overly sensitive or problematic in some way, and so
the problem becomes, oh, it's you, because we deal with
this just fine. And I think that that probably makes
you question the validity of what you're feeling. And so
(22:35):
you have Liz who can say, wow, as an outsider,
I saw that, and I did not like the way
your parents treated you. I don't like what they said
about your appearance. So there's that reality check there. But
I imagine that it was very hard growing up when
people were saying, well, you're just sensitive. So whatever you're feeling,
this hurt, this anger, buck up. Yeah it's tough because
(23:00):
I he kind of summed that up really well. But
in addition to all that, I I do feel like
I was. I was maybe like the hard kid in
her family. At least I'm reminded that I was a
lot because you had feelings. Mm hmmm. Probably I struggled
(23:21):
in junior high. You know, I dealt with anxiety and
I was depressed. You know, it's bullied. I didn't have
a lot of friends in elementary school when I was
really young, like my my son's age. Apparently I cried
a lot. My parents will tell me like how how
terrible I was as a kid because I cried so much.
On more than one occasion, they've told me like they
considered putting me up for adoption, which like, holy sh it,
(23:44):
Like what what kind of things were you telling me
as a kid That they told you that as a kid.
He told me that as an adult, But they actually
said that we were thinking at something to putting up
adoption because you were crying so much. Yeah, that I
was just like such a hard child. So you were
basically labeled difficult early on for being human. As you
(24:06):
know you have a baby yourself. Babies cry, That's how
they communicate. In fact, that is their survival mechanism. So
if a baby is uncomfortable, um in any way, they're hungry,
they're tired, they're saying, hey, I need help, come here,
comfort me. That's the only way they can communicate. And
(24:27):
so it sounds like from even being a newborn, your
parents were saying, we don't want that kind of communication.
We want happy, pleasant communication, and anything else is quote
unquote difficult. And I wonder what it's like for you
now when your son cries, what comes up in you?
(24:49):
Just like be patient with them and hold them and
tell them that it's okay and that I love them anyways.
Do you notice what he said, I love him anyways
like I love you. Despite the fact you're doing this
there a normal thing. So just just to notice how
much your parents have seeped into you. It's it's just
you're showing him that I love you and let me
(25:11):
help you here. I know you're calling out to me
for help. And your son is not being difficult. There's
not loving him despite the fact that he's crying. And
I think that part of the reason that's still in
you is because you haven't accepted that in yourself. That
the work here is really about how are you going
(25:32):
to reframe for yourself, whether you are a person who
is difficult, whether you are too much. I think you
have this sense of I'm too much. I don't want
to approach my parents about this because that will be
too much. Yeah. And you know, over the last few
(25:52):
years of realizing that I deal with normal human things
and talking about them with friends and be like, oh,
you know X, y Z, And then the next day
I'll be like, I shouldn't have told them those things.
Like I'm just like I feel like, oh, I probably
lost them as a friend because I burdened them with
my feelings again and stuff. Did you burden them with
your feelings? Yeah, because that's the unfortunate legacy of your upbringing,
(26:19):
that feelings are burnsome they make you a difficult child,
one worthy perhaps of considering adoption, because this kid has
just things called feelings, and they're making a mess. When
you have these wounds which you carry with you, and
the wounds are still there, and you're getting freshly wounded
(26:40):
each time you interact with your parents. There is nothing
you can do to reframe that, to manage that, to
dismiss it, that will make that not hurt. And I
think that this idea of let me go to therapy
so I can learn how to tolerate and not be
too upset when you tell me that you went home
(27:03):
and you called your mom and I think you said
you were a blubbering, sobbing miss. And this is an
adult and this is recent. It's the proof right that
this still hurts. And it does, Jeff, because it should,
because when somebody speaks to you that way and treats
you that way, especially with the history, it has to hurt.
(27:23):
You said, yes, I think I'm strong enough to do
it for my son. Now I would love you to
be strong enough to do it for yourself, and your
son can benefit from that. But it's you that really
needs to be able to do it. You're the one
that needs to be able to communicate to your parents. You, guys,
I can't keep hurting every time I'm around you. It's
not something I want to keep doing. And I'm sure
(27:45):
it's not something you want to keep doing. Yeah, the
thing about feelings in your household was that feelings were dangerous.
Feelings were messy. Feelings made people uncomfortable. And what I
think your parents couldn't see because of the way they
grew up where feelings were also dangerous and uncomfortable and
(28:09):
messy and inconvenient, was that when you had feelings, it
was about them and their inability to tolerate their own feelings.
So when you had feelings, it brought up feelings and
them you cried. They thought, oh, no, maybe I'm a
bad parent. My kids unhappy. I don't know how to
do that. I need to have my kid be happy
(28:30):
so that I feel good about myself and as a
parent myself, I can say a million feelings come up.
There's that warm like I want to take care of
you and I want to help you. And there's also
the oh my god, the baby's crying again. When am
I ever going to sleep? And like is this normal?
Is my baby healthy? Am I doing everything right? You know?
(28:51):
All of those things are coming up, and to be
able to sit with those feelings you have to really
move into that play. So of I've dealt with my childhood,
and I'm making sure that I'm separating out my own
relationship with feelings that was in my house when I
was growing up with how I feel about that now.
(29:14):
And your parents hadn't done that work, so they weren't
able to do that. But you have begun that work,
and you do have the opportunity to do that, and
so you won't be in this place of overcompensating. Like, okay,
so when my son is crying, I have to only
feel like he's warm, loving feelings towards my child. You
can also feel this is really hard, I can't believe
(29:37):
the kid is crying again, right, Like, that's okay to
feel that. You know, you'll respond to your child and
you'll fold him and feed him and change the staper
or whatever needs to happen. But you can also say
to Lise like, you know, hey, you got this one,
you know, or she'll say to you, you got this
one right, And that's okay to have these moments of
(29:57):
you know, God, this is really hard, I wish this
kid would just leave me alone for an hour. And
also love your kid with you know, every fiber of
your being. And both of those things are true. Your
parents couldn't integrate those two things. Yeah, we do have
(30:31):
some advice for you, and I think what we need
to preface and say is that what's important here is
what you can message to them, the clarity with which
you'll do it, and the follow up which will be
(30:52):
necessary to maintain it. The mark of whether they hear
you is not going to occur in the moment. It's
going to occur when they change or not their behavior,
because that's what happened in that incident with your mom.
She kind of heard it, that made excuses and rebuffed,
but then she stopped saying that thing that you asked
(31:14):
to to stop saying. So the conversation itself would probably
not be a good indication about whether you got through.
It might be are you're gonna have to judgment until
you see what changes in terms of behavior. Okay, Jeff,
I was thinking about how in your family, resilience meant
that you don't have feelings, and the reality is that
(31:37):
you become more resilient when you can actually feel your feelings.
That's a lesson that you've learned as you've moved into adulthood,
and one of your roles as a parent is to
be that child's teacher. And as you move into this
more adult place with your feelings, which is not the
(31:58):
helpless place you were as a child, but the more
empowered place, a place we have agency to respond differently
and to do something different with those feelings as an adult.
That's a lesson that you're learning for yourself, and you
can also be a teacher of those lessons to the
rest of your family. Yeah, your parents don't really understand
(32:24):
this feelings thing, and you do. And do you understand
how human that makes you, how important that is, and
this is something that you need to teach them. They
might not be the most willing students, but this is
something you need to come at as a son who's
(32:48):
understood something and learned something about life. They have not,
and this is your attempt to teach them that. And
why we're emphasizing this aspect of teacher because when you
embody that, it gives you a different stature, It gives
you a different kind of emotional resiliency in that moment
(33:08):
because you're coming from a place of wisdom. I know
something mom and Dad that you don't and that you
really should, So I'm going to try and convey it
to you. You don't say that, but that's the mindset
with which you approach them. And we think you need
to speak to them separately because they are so similar
in their orientation, they would just reinforce one another and
(33:30):
then it would be very difficult to get through. So
we think you should start with your mom and then
talk with your dad soon thereafter. I would like you
to say, mom, being a dad myself has given me
a lot of thoughts about my life. And I recognize
really clearly that you and Dad thought that by um
(33:54):
issuing these kinds of comments and criticisms, I should be
able to take it and it will tougher me up.
But as you know, I'm a sensitive millennial, so that
didn't quite work. And then you'll say, and I am
so glad it didn't, because I can experience my feelings
(34:18):
and I can be in touch with them, and because
I am, I have a request for you. I want
to feel closer to you, and I want my son
to feel close to you, and so I need you
to change your strategy. I need you to understand that
when you criticize me and put me down, even if
(34:38):
it's sometimes jokingly, it actually hurts. And I don't want
to hurt when I am with you, and I know
you don't want me to. So I'm asking you to
do something really difficult, and that is change a habit
you have, and I want you to instead of pointing
(34:59):
out deficits, I want you to be supportive. I want
you to be loving, I want you to be encouraging.
Those are things I want to hear from you, And
those are the things I want my son to hear
from you. And you can say to them that those
comments don't make me stronger, They actually make me weaker.
(35:22):
When I feel your love, your approval, your appreciation, your respect,
that's what makes me stronger. Who boy, can you tell
us more about the Who Boy? You just kind of
just just going over all the things in my head
of like how they're going to respond, which I shouldn't
(35:44):
because that's what's kept me from from saying things in
the past. But when you do go over them in
your head, it makes you feel what so scared? Scared? Yeah?
What's the scary thing that can happen? Just just having
(36:05):
them not be receptive to it or downplay it or
And if you are a teacher, Jeff, are you scared
if your students don't quite get it yet. Is that
Is that a scary thing? Right? It's not. And you're
a teacher here. It's so hard to break out of
(36:25):
the child parent thing and see them as an equal
adult where I can teach. Are not equal. You are
a teacher to them, is my point. And that's the point.
If you try to see them as equal, it's difficult.
You need to see them as not knowing something very
fundamental that you do. And Jeff, this is not a
one time listen. This is a listen that's going to
(36:48):
have to be repeated. You're going to have to assume
this role with them for a long time, and it's
time you did assume it, because somebody should. So instead
of approaching them from that place of like when your
mom hurt you before, we're not saying don't feel that
you will feel what you felt as a child. That's okay.
It's normal to feel hurt when somebody says something hurtful,
(37:11):
especially people that you love, especially people that you feel
like they're not seeing who you are or appreciating who
you are. And so instead of responding from that place,
it's very tender for you, and it takes you back
to that old state of mind that I can't do
anything about this. You are apparent now and you have choices.
(37:32):
So if they don't heed what you say in the
moment when something happens, like they say, oh, you know,
the baby looks so funny, you might have to for
a second be the child in your mind. Go through
that in your mind. Okay, here's my reaction as the
helpless child. But now I'm a teacher and these people
need me to teach them something, and you can say,
(37:52):
very gently, I'm reminding you that it would feel so
much better if you would say, hey, he looks so adorable.
Those comments would make me feel stronger, would make my
son feel stronger, and would also bring us closer to you.
(38:16):
And so, no matter what comes out of these conversations,
the good news that we're hearing is that already you're
being a good parent to yourself, that you understand the
importance of feeling something and acknowledging those feelings and acknowledging
those feelings and other people. And that's what's going to
make you a good parent to yourself, to your son,
(38:43):
and to your parents who need a little bit of reparenting. Yes, Jeff,
one more thing your man might get upset, your dad
might get angry, and if I get you correctly, that
will make you feel after of the fact, guilty. And
I want to let you know that your thermostat for
(39:06):
guilt is set a little low. It's not really correct,
so you will feel guilty when you should not, and
so you're gonna have to disregard it because you're going
to feel afterwards, especially if there was a bruha, which
they might be like, oh, their feelings might be hurt,
they might be upset, they might be bewildered. They'll get
(39:27):
over it because they do care about you and you
care about them. But you do have to say to yourself,
this was necessary. I didn't do anything wrong. In fact,
I did something hugely important. And by the way, not
just for me, not just for my son, not just
for Liz, but for my brothers and for their future children,
(39:49):
because I'm wise enough to be the teacher here and
I am taking that mental Yeah, and you're giving your
parents a gift that they didn't have growing up. They
never had someone say it is okay to feel this,
and this is how people get closer. Yeah, yeah, sorry,
(40:15):
you see, we're just even just apologizing for your tears.
That's that message that you've got that it's not okay
to feel. So, how do you feel about trying this
this week? Oh? I so don't want to, but I
know that it's necessary. Well, so when you say I
still don't want to, who's talking the child of the teacher?
The child, of course, the child. So I want to
(40:36):
ask the teacher. I want to ask the teacher, how
do you feel about trying this out this week? Knowing
what you know about life and how important this lesson is. Ah,
I recognize the importance of it. I do not look
forward to it, but I understand how important it is,
(40:56):
especially for for my son and my partner and as
you say, my siblings, which I yeah, I hadn't even
thought about in this equation, but it's it's necessary and
something I have to do. Let me just reframe it
one more time for you. I want to ask you
the question again, but I want to orient it differently.
(41:17):
Imagine you're gonna talk to your son about this one
day when he's able to understand it. Right, So you're
giving him that message anyway by the way you treat him,
by the way you acknowledge his feelings, by the way
you would live interact with him. But one day, somewhat
besides your parents, is going to give your son the
message it's not okay to feel somebody in the world
(41:38):
will do that, and you, as his teacher, are going
to have a conversation with him when he comes to
you and says that, how do you feel about having
a conversation with him? Empowered? Yeah, just to be able too,
(42:02):
to be able to pass that ability along to my
to my son. It's just something I've struggled with so
much for my whole life. And to be able to
give that seems like a gift and to create a
different legacy for him. And so when you think about
(42:22):
being the teacher and having this conversation with your parents,
that's the perspective that we want you to take. Remember
you're the teacher, and I know it's a lot of
recalibration for you, separating the little boy that you were
(42:43):
from the wise teacher that you've become. Thank you for
the encouragement. Well, but if it's completely true, just think
from it. How much more sophisticated emotionally are you then
they are? How much more than understand ending of emotions
do you have them they do. I mean, it's it's
(43:03):
a gulf. You recognize that right that that you are
in a position to talk about emotions in a way
that's famer knowledgeable then they are. Yeah, it's just so
hard to break out of the just the idea that
your parents are above you and have it all figured
out and that you have could ever possibly teach them something.
(43:25):
What you're doing here is not just teaching your parents.
You're reparenting yourself. Yeah, you're being a good parent to yourself.
And you have a choice every time you go back
into that place of oh, I can't do this, or
to take a breath and say, wait a minute, I
(43:46):
need to learn how to be a good parent to
myself because the stakes are very high. If I can't
be a good parent to myself, no matter how good
my intentions are, I will not be a good parent
to my son. So I have to do this first
with myself in order to give my son the thing
(44:07):
that I want to give him more than anything else
in the world. Yeah, that's true, that's all I want
to give. You will do this, You will have this conversation.
It will go as it will go, but you will
do your best. After you've had it, and after you
know how difficult it was to have, how impressed with
(44:29):
yourself fully be very proud good, So yes, do it
and then feel really proud of yourself for doing it.
And I want to say one last thing. You mentioned
that that time that your parents made a comment about
your appearance, that it was Liz who said to you
(44:51):
that's not okay. And you then went home and called
and said I didn't like that, right, and then the
behavior stopped. The conversation to and go swimmingly, but the
behavior stopped. I want you to as part of this
enlist list, just to let her know that you're doing this,
(45:12):
so that you have that support going in. We want
you to tell her before you make these calls. Here's
what I'm going to do. Here's the rationale behind it.
Here is my role as a teacher. Here is how
that's going to help me become a better parent to myself,
which in turn will make me a better parent to
our child. Here's how it's going to help you. Here's
(45:35):
how it's going to help my brothers. And here's how
in some way it will help my parents. I can
do this great good. Thank you. Okay, Well, we look
forward to hearing what happens, and remember we'll be rooting
for you. Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the
(45:59):
time to talk with me. I liked him a lot,
a lot, what a lovely person, and I'm so glad
he found a lovely wife. Yeah, he was in such
a common predicament with being sort of caught between the
(46:20):
childhood self and the adult self that he's started to
grow into. And what you have to do in that
scenario is you have to use your adult self to
do something that feels really unnatural and really scary, but
it's in the doing of it that you become the adult. Yeah.
I'm really glad that he has Liz, because I think
(46:42):
she's going to be a great support for him when
the child walks into the metaphorical classroom and the teachers
trying to talk. And I'm really glad he has his
son because his son has forced him to grow up.
I think for him having that conversation that he's so
afraid to have, it will be such a growth experience
that it will make it all worth while. Yeah, this
(47:03):
is one of those things where you see the benefit
in the long term. You're listening to dear therapists from
My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a quick break.
You're listening to dear therapist from my Heart Radio. So
(47:26):
we heard back from Jeff, and I'm really looking forward
to this one. I hope it went well for him. Yeah,
that was not an easy role reversal we were asking
him to try. So let's go hear what happened. Hey, Laurie,
Hey guys, it's Jeff. So I did it. I had
the conversations that I never thought i'd be able to
have with my folks. Leading up to it, I was
super nervous, like nauseous even, but after talking it through
(47:49):
with Liz, realized that that was the child in me,
not the adult or the teacher. As you had mentioned,
I had to really remain mindful and remind myself that
is doing the right thing, and that it's okay to
express those needs and those feelings. I approached both of
the conversations as you had mentioned, that I've thought a
(48:10):
lot about what it means to be a parent and
a child, and that I understand their criticisms and the
way that they raised us to not acknowledge hard feelings,
that that was just their way of fostering strength and
resilience in us, and that while I appreciate and love
them for all that they've done for me, that those
comments and flippant dismissals of you know, concerns and feelings
(48:31):
that I that I have and that people have are
are not okay, That they hurt and they can make
them feel really small or invalid, and that in the
future I'd appreciate it if they could be mindful of
those things and either don't say anything at all or
instead act in ways that uplift and encourage, especially as
it relates to their grandchild. The The conversation with my
(48:55):
mom didn't go so great. There were moments where she
said like you should know that I really love you,
and her saying like okay, okay, I'll try. But she
told me that I don't really have it that bad,
and that I'm being too sensitive and that I'm essentially
asking her and my father to censor themselves. She said
(49:15):
it's naive or even foolish for me to ask for
someone to change their character, and that she doesn't want
to have to constantly have to think about what she
says in front of me, and that if we raise
our sun like this, that he won't be able to
take negative feedback as he gets older. So I think
I had a lot of hope that it would be
this magical conversation and I would finally feel seen, but
(49:37):
I really didn't. It was really hard. I felt like
I did a pretty good job in standing my ground,
and I'm proud of myself for not backing down on
my needs and feelings and trying my best to remember
that these are reasonable requests. And I wasn't a blubbering mess.
But I did leave the conversation feeling really upside down,
(49:57):
and the child within me felt really invalidated. The conversation
with my father, thankfully, it went really well. He was
really gracious and kind. He listened, He acknowledged that he
can be this way, and you apologized for it, said
that it was never his intention to make me feel
small or shamed, but that it was a misguided way
(50:19):
of showing affection, poking fun, and that he'll be more
mindful of it with me and around his grandson. He
noted that he's always had a hard time talking about feelings,
especially difficult ones, and said he was really encouraged and
happy to see that I'm getting better at doing it myself.
I left that conversation feeling proud, relieved, and and hopeful
(50:41):
for the future. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've
got an emotional hangover that's gonna last a week, but
I feel that I've done something incredibly important for myself
and for my family, laid some groundwork so I feel
more comfortable expressing myself and setting boundaries. I just want
to say thanks again for helping me to see that
the approach I was taking changing my relationship with pain
(51:04):
rather than actively working to heal that I wasn't working
for me. But you made me feel seen and heard,
and you gave me the encouragement to feel like I
could have those conversations with my parents and that it
was normal, that that I'm normal and it's reasonable to
to ask for those things. So thank you so much.
Thanks Larry, Thanks Guy m Well. What people can't see
(51:26):
is that while we're listening to this voicemail, you and
I were nodding and smiling a lot. And I think
that's because even though the conversation with his mother was
very difficult, it's still set the groundwork for some internal
work that he's doing himself, where he is being the teacher,
and yes, the child part of him felt wounded by
(51:48):
that conversation, and the child part of him felt gratified
by the conversation with his father. But I think when
he goes back into the teacher position, what came out
of it was different way of viewing himself, his place
as as a parent, his place as a husband, his
place as a son, and that he really has something
(52:10):
very valuable to teach everyone in his family, but particularly himself. Yes,
that conversation with his mom didn't go well. That groundwork
was established, as he said, the groundwork for him to
give her a look the next time she does it,
and for her to give him a look, but pause
and maybe not do it for the third time. And
so I think that he actually accomplished more than he realized. Right.
(52:35):
And also the fact that the father was so receptive
to this and was able to really listen for Jeff,
he had not felt listened to it all by his parents,
and so to have his father really take that in
and apologize and say I'm going to be mindful of this.
I think that when the mother does this again, now
he's got the father a little bit on board, and
(52:56):
that will be very helpful too, And I think the
bottom line here is that it's never too late to
change a family dynamic, even once you're an adult. The
way family dynamics work is that if one person creates
a real shift, it forces the other people to shift
as well, and that's what Jeff did here. Hey fellow travelers,
(53:21):
if you've used any of our advice from the podcast
in your own life, send us a quick voice memo
to Lori and Guy at I heart media dot com
and tell us about it. We may include it in
a future show that brings us to the end of
our show for this week. Thank you so much for listening.
If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to
rate and review it. You can follow us both online.
(53:45):
I'm at Lori Gottlieb dot com and you can follow
me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb I or on Instagram
at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author. And I'm at Guy Wench
dot com. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at Guy Wench.
If you a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
big or small, email us at Lorian Guy at I
(54:05):
heart Media dot com. Our executive producers Christopher hasci Otis
were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to
Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Correct.
Next Week, a woman copes with her husband's infidelity. It
has come out and therapy that the relations have been
(54:25):
with men. However, my husband is very closed off and
kind of I just wanted to go away. Dear Therapist
is a production of I Heart Radio
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy Called Him for Ted and this is Dear Therapists.
This week, a new father worries that his parents constant
criticisms will be as damaging to his child as they
(00:24):
were to him. I called my mom and it was
a snotty, crying mess and told her, when you say
those things, it makes me feel really bad. And I've
been working really hard to accept myself and love myself,
and it just really hurts. I'd appreciate if you didn't.
And her response was something along the lines of get
over it, listen in, and maybe learn something about yourself
(00:46):
in the process. Hey, just a note before we start.
Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. It always seek the advice of your physician,
mental health professional, or other qualified health provider with any
questions you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting
(01:10):
a letter you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use
it in part or and full, and we may edit
it for length and or clarity. Hi guy, Hi Lorie.
So what do we have today? Well, today we have
a letter from a guy who has some very critical
parents and he doesn't know how to deal with them.
(01:31):
Here's what he wrote, Dear Therapists, over the last few years,
I've put in a lot of work when it comes
to understanding my parents and my relationship to them. They
are quite critical and judgmental, quick to say that you
or someone else is being stupid, or your appearance looks funny.
They love to give their unsolicited opinions and could be
quite antagonistic when people don't do things as they do.
(01:55):
While in the company of others, they will jump at
the opportunity to tell embarrassing stories of my past, remind
me of times I tried and came up short, and
point out anything they can about something quote wrong I
may be doing in the moment. I know my parents
are loving and caring and either don't know how to
show this or have very odd ways of doing so.
I have come to learn that this is more a
(02:15):
reflection of their own insecurities and care that was lacking
in their own upbringing. I try to be mindful of
this and not let it impact my own self worth.
The problem is young kids don't know this, and I
am the proud parent of a newborn child. I very
much want my family to be a big part of
my child's life, but I am absolutely terrified of their
(02:35):
feedback and criticism slowly chipping away at the self esteem
of my child. I know I can't shelter my child
from all criticisms and personalities in life, nor would I
want to. But the grandparent grandchild relationship should be a
safe space of love, empowerment, and emotional validation, things that
may have been lacking in my own childhood. My parents
are also of the generation where they think tough love
(02:57):
and harsh criticism build healthy, resilient to adults. They like
to go on at length about how we're all sensitive
millennials now. In the past, when I've tried to make
it known how their words and actions made me feel,
it sometimes came with an apology, but not without an
added but you're too sensitive, or you think you've got problems.
I worry that any concerns I voice won't be taken
(03:19):
seriously or worse that they'll be stubborn and double down
with their dated my house, my rule's attitude. You can
probably guess from my letter that I can be quick
to skirt conflict and appease others. But that doesn't seem
like the healthy way to go about this. How can
I protect my child? Thank you, jeff So. The transition
to parenthood. Right when you have your first child and
(03:41):
you transition to being a parent, it brings up pretty
much every psychological conflict you might have had ever in
your life, because it brings up your feelings about the
parenting that you receive from your parents, what kind of
parents you will be. It radically changes your sense of identity.
So that's a huge life event that just brings up
(04:03):
so many feelings. Yeah, it does. There's this really famous
paper by Selma Frayberg called The Ghost in the Nursery,
and it's about how when we have our kids, we
start to relive a lot of the experiences that we
had as kids that maybe we hadn't thought about in
a very long time. And it's always that thing where
(04:24):
you say, I'm not going to do it the way
my parents did, and then you find yourself doing exactly
the thing that you said you wouldn't. I wonder if
there's some bit of him that maybe he's not aware
of yet, that worries that he might do something to
his own child that he doesn't want to. Maybe it
doesn't look the same as what his parents did, but
(04:44):
that somehow he's going to fall short when it comes
to him and his own child. What a lot of
people don't recognize it is an absolutely terrifying responsibility. When
as therapist, people tell us that they've had a newborn
and they start talking about the feels that they have,
it's very very common, except it's not something that people
express to their friends like, oh, my goodness, I'm gonna
(05:07):
break my kid. A lot of people will talk about, oh,
I'm not sleeping, or those aspects of having a newborn.
But I remember when I had my son, people weren't
really talking about the fact that you're handed this human
that you are now responsible for in every way and
you've never done it before, and that is terrifying. And
(05:30):
so when I started talking about that with other people,
it felt like, oh, I'm not the only one. Oh
you felt this way too, And so I think that
Jeff needs to understand that it's very normal to feel
like I want to do right by this little person
and I don't know if I know how, and especially
in his situation where he feels like he didn't have
(05:51):
great modeling for that right. A friend of mine one said,
I break every iPhone I have. Why did somebody give
me a baby? I know, it's like I can't even
take care of the layout. So now I have this human. Well,
let's go talk to him and see what we can
do to help him with the situation with his parents. Yes,
(06:15):
this is Dear Therapists and we'll be back after a
short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and
this is de A Therapists. Hi Jeff, Hi, Hi Jeff.
It's good to have you on this show. Thanks so
(06:35):
much for having me, and congratulations on the baby. How
old is the baby now? Four months old? Are you
getting any sleep? And not much? No? Is it just you?
Did you have a partner? My partner, she's tired too, Jeff.
One of the things that stood out for me in
your letter was used the word terrified to describe you
(06:55):
worry about the impact your parents might have on your
on Can you tell us a little bit more about
really what that there is, about what interactions they have
been with your parents so far. Yeah, I've done some
therapy myself over the last couple of years, and I'm
starting to realize that a lot of my you know,
my anxieties and insecurities and things surrounding self worth, they
(07:19):
stem from messages that I got as as a child.
And I'm a lot more receptive now to the the
tone of voice and the messaging that I get from
my parents, whether they're you know, kind of off hand
like oh that's stupid, or you know, comments about my
appearance or comments about others. As I can see pretty
clearly now sort of the line between that and how
I am today. I'm just I'm so scared. I have
(07:41):
your parents seen him yet, and how has that been
they have? Yeah, I think I'm just like, I'm looking
for those things, for those messages for my parents, and
you know, when you're looking for them, you see them.
I see them just making sort of like offhand remarks
about the way that he's dressed or just like physical appearance.
Would exactly have they said? Just to give is a
flavor of what that sounds like yeah, um, oh you
(08:03):
look ridiculous, like in that outfit or crying, Oh, you're fine.
And one of the things I think I've seen or
noticed myself and my history with them is like I
think I got a lot of that messaging is when
I wasn't fine, I was told that I was fine.
You know, I didn't feel like my emotions were very validated.
I'm so freaked out about the implications of that and
(08:24):
that messaging for my son. What do you do in
the moment when your parents say things like this, and
more importantly, how do you feel? I generally just take
it when it really gets under my skin, I really
respond sometimes maybe not the best way, just kind of uh,
I'm not angry, but just like yeah, yeah, yeah whatever,
(08:46):
And I feel really really small. The reason that you
feel small is because we all do this around our
parents at times when they trigger something that was upsetting
from our childhood. We get very young in those moments,
so it's not our adult selves that's responding, it's our
(09:06):
childhood self. And we knew even just minimized your feeling
a second ago. You said, you know, they sort of
tried to tell you, no, you're not feeling this. You
just did that to yourself. You said, well, angry, No,
not angry. I'll bet you get pretty angry. Yeah, totally.
And part of that being young when we were with
(09:28):
our parents is that we revert to the fact that
when we were kids and this happened, we didn't have
a lot of options. We couldn't just get up and go,
for example, and then we maintain that in our adulthood
we feel like helpless and paralyzed and I have to
take it. Part of what happens when we get into
that young mental space because we're with our parents and
(09:51):
we revert back to childhood as we feel as helpless
and lacking in resources as we did when we were
indeed helpless and lacking in resource is even though now
we're not how much you can identify feeling that feeling
of helplessness and that you just have to take it
because there's not much you can actually do as an adult.
(10:11):
I feel that fully, yeah, And I don't want to
rock the boat with them, and I see how this
is problematic, but I don't want to make them question
how they raised me and feel bad. In that sense,
they don't necessarily have to feel bad, but why not
alert them to the fact that you didn't and still
(10:32):
don't like to be spoken to that way because I
know how much it would hurt me and how terrible
I would feel if I got that messaging from somebody.
There's a lot of blurring b of the lines between
how your parents would feel, how you would feel, and
(10:52):
how your child might feel. And so you're saying, you know,
I wouldn't like it if my child grows up and
says that to me. There's a way that patterns and
families are passed down through the generations based on how
each generation is raised. And I wonder if you could
tell us a little bit more about your parents and
(11:15):
what you know about their upbringing. Yeah, my father, he
was raised in a family. His father was in the
Second World War and he came came home and started
a family. And my dad just mentioned one time that
he basically just said, I was I was a tank
driver in the in the Second World War. Don't ever
ask me about it again. So, you know, emotions things
(11:40):
like that and not spoken about in that family, nor
were they in mine. And my mom her father passed
away when she was in her thirties from alcoholism, So right,
if there was alcoholism and the family, there probably was
a lot of erratic behavior or secrets or instability in
some way. Probably, yeah, And so she probably didn't have
(12:02):
a lot of space for her feelings as well. So
there's a lot of similarities between how you felt as
a kid and probably how your parents felt as children.
That makes sense, Jeff. One of the things I think
that's happening is that you are justifying this paralysis that
(12:23):
you feel by saying I don't want to hurt their feelings,
that don't want them to question their own parenting to me.
But yet without doing that, it's going to be is
and has been years for you of feeling really bad
when you're around them, and being terrified now that your
son will feel bad when he is around them. Now
(12:46):
having a conversation like that might not necessarily be pleasant,
and perhaps the feelings will be hurt, and perhaps they
will think back and go oops. I mean, actually that's
the best case scenario, that they think back and go oops.
But to the extent that they do, then they might
actually change their behavior. And I think the math here
is do you perpetuate something of a many many years?
And as Lorie was saying, transgenerationally or do you actually
(13:12):
address it because the adult you was super clear that
that's not something that's good for you even today uncertainly
wouldn't be something that's good for your son. Yeah. A
big part of like the I guess called the work
that I've done over the last few years is feeling
like in an attempt to not have to have that conversation,
and I guess potentially like have my feelings invalidated further
(13:34):
as just trying to change my relationship with that messaging
like oh, when my parents say this, that's their childhood talking.
But when I see you, because we can actually see
the hurt in your eyes, indicates that's not necessarily super successful. No, No,
it's not. Yeah, we see you were smiling and recognition
(13:55):
at that too. You're aware of that, and I think
that's why you wrote to us, because that hasn't been successful. Yep.
I'm wondering, given all of this, how you felt when
you learned you were going to become a father. What
was the pregnancy like for you and your wife? It
(14:16):
was super exciting as it relates to my family, though
I was I think afraid to tell them about the
choices that we were making and the things that we
wanted for for our kids. What kinds of choices, um,
just like whether we were going to do a home
birth or at a hospital birth. Are we going to
stay in a small apartment or are we going to
co sleep with them? My parents are really quick to
(14:38):
give you advice and snap judgments. Just to avoid that,
I just didn't really tell them much about the things
that we were doing because I just wanted to be
free to do the things that my partner and I
wanted to do. Right, Except you weren't exactly free because
you were trapped by having to edit yourself. Yeah, so
(14:58):
you weren't free at all. In fact, what I think
about is that you say in your letter you really
want your child to have a close relationship with his grandparents,
and I think you want to have a close relationship
with your parents, but a different one. And if you
avoid them by we're not going to tell them what
we're doing with the baby, I'm going to edit myself
(15:20):
around them because if they make a comment, it will
devastate me, or it will make me um question myself,
or it'll leave me in a funk for two hours.
Whatever it is, you're not going to be able to
have that closer relationship with them, and having a baby
is a real transition in a really good time to
(15:42):
redefine relationships for the better. And what this really does
is it really kind of forces you to emotionally move
into the adult space and say, wait, I'm the parent now,
I'm an adult now, and so how can I be
more of an adult around my parents? So when your
(16:03):
parents say, we use this method with you because we
think that tough love makes people more resilient, and you're
just a sensitive millennial, well guess what. I guess it
didn't work because you are sensitive, So it didn't make
you more resilient, and they're having trouble seeing that, and
so I think you are too. So when you talk about, oh,
(16:25):
I have to be really careful about what I say
around my parents because they may say something that will
devastate me. We want to help you get to a
different place with that. Please do so. Your partner, how
does she respond when those kinds of he looks ridiculous
in that? How does she respond when they make comments
(16:46):
like that? She's been pretty unfazed by it over the years.
She's just like such a kind person, gives everyone the
benefit of the doubt, and thus far it's been Oh,
they don't really mean it, they love you a lot.
But actually, right before I wrote the letter, sort of
when it first affected her and my parents made a
(17:08):
comment about like that looks ridiculous, and I saw how
much it hurt her, and that was the breaking point
for me. It's like this no longer effects just me.
You have to do something about it, right, And I
think that your feeling has been that it's going to
be really, really difficult to do. And I think as
a son, your feeling has been I can take it now.
(17:31):
Whether that was wise, whether you should be taking it
or should have taken it so long, I don't know.
But as a husband and now as a father, it's
a fight you need to have. The three people you
mentioned in your letter that you've have some experience in
asking them to either use that language or to do
(17:51):
those things. Could you tell us a little bit about
how you brought that up with them and what the
reactions were. Yeah, over the core some years they had
just like constantly made comments about appearance, like you know,
my body and my brother's body, like things that we
have no control over. There was one night, actually it
was my partner, Liz. We left and she was like,
(18:12):
it's not okay that your parents say that. I think
you're beautiful. And I went home and I and I
called my mom and it, yeah, it was a snotty,
crying mess and told her like, when you say those things,
it makes me feel really bad and I've been working
really hard to exact I love myself for those things,
and it just really hurts. I'd appreciate if you didn't.
(18:34):
And her response was something along the lines of get
over it. And she hasn't mentioned it since then, So
in that way, I guess it was a success. But
I wish that if I brought it up now that
we could talk about it comfortably and like adults. But
she kind of fought back, and then it's just like
it never happened. It's not like it never happened because
she felt blamed or criticized even though that wasn't your intention.
(18:58):
And yet she out the message because she hasn't brought
it up since, so the conversation did happen, but she
gets so injured she doesn't hear it. I feel hurt
by this. What she hears is you were a bad mother,
and that's where she starts to defend herself, but she
heard it, and so that's a start. That's an opening
that gives us a little bit of hope that maybe
(19:21):
something different can happen. And that's how I deal with things.
You know, if a friend comes to me and it's like, hey,
upset me that you can come to this thing, or
I'm like, oh, I'm a terrible friend. Right. Instead of
taking the message that your friend is saying, I want
to be closer with you and you're important to me,
and that's why I was upset by this, you hear
(19:44):
it as oh god, I'm a horrible person. I think
your mom does something similar where instead of saying, oh,
my son wants to be closer with me, she hears
I'm a terrible mom. And I think one of the
big reasons I struggle so much with talking about it
as I look at my mom and in so many
ways I see myself in what ways do you see yourself?
(20:05):
Mm hmm. Mostly in the ways that she responds to
criticisms like that she kind of shuts down and and
I shut down. But you get defensive and say things like, oh,
you think you've got problems. No, I just shut down,
you shut down and self lagellate. Right? Do you do
this with with Liz? Also, like when she has something
(20:26):
to bring up with you, how do you respond to her.
We've just had such open, honest dialogue from day one
that I feel comfortable bringing those things up. I'm trying
to get better at talking about my needs and my boundaries,
and there's been a couple of times where I've mentioned
them and and then the next day feel really guilty.
But generally it's very healthy, open conversation. That's great news, though.
(20:47):
It is great news that you found someone that makes
you feel about yourself so differently than your parents did.
It's lovely. It feels really great. Yeah, yeah, we see
you tearing up. It's really meaningful to you, that phone conversation.
That example he gave us with your mom. Do you
have an example with your dad? Mm hmmm. I've never
(21:08):
really talked to him about any of that kind of
stuff before, called him out on things. He does like
to point out past mistakes and you know, off the cuff,
just he're so stupid and I definitely just take it.
So this would be new territory for you to bring
it up with him. Yeah, he responds the opposite way
to my mom, he'll explode. He'll just get angry and
(21:32):
kind of run off. What about your brother, how has
he dealt with this as he's grown up. I have
two brothers, and they've both kind of said, always say
those things because they want the best for us, who
want us to succeed. But do they own the fact
that it's very painful as you do? Not at all?
(21:52):
Do they have kids? Is this the first grandchild? Yeah,
it's the first one. It sounds like there's this sense
of isolation to you know, sometimes when you grow up
in a household and there's something about the way that
you felt hurt or unheard, and everybody else in the
family is sort of like it's not a big deal, right,
(22:13):
And then you're sort of labeled as the person who
is overly sensitive or problematic in some way, and so
the problem becomes, oh, it's you, because we deal with
this just fine. And I think that that probably makes
you question the validity of what you're feeling. And so
(22:35):
you have Liz who can say, wow, as an outsider,
I saw that, and I did not like the way
your parents treated you. I don't like what they said
about your appearance. So there's that reality check there. But
I imagine that it was very hard growing up when
people were saying, well, you're just sensitive. So whatever you're feeling,
this hurt, this anger, buck up. Yeah it's tough because
(23:00):
I he kind of summed that up really well. But
in addition to all that, I I do feel like
I was. I was maybe like the hard kid in
her family. At least I'm reminded that I was a
lot because you had feelings. Mm hmmm. Probably I struggled
(23:21):
in junior high. You know, I dealt with anxiety and
I was depressed. You know, it's bullied. I didn't have
a lot of friends in elementary school when I was
really young, like my my son's age. Apparently I cried
a lot. My parents will tell me like how how
terrible I was as a kid because I cried so much.
On more than one occasion, they've told me like they
considered putting me up for adoption, which like, holy sh it,
(23:44):
Like what what kind of things were you telling me
as a kid That they told you that as a kid.
He told me that as an adult, But they actually
said that we were thinking at something to putting up
adoption because you were crying so much. Yeah, that I
was just like such a hard child. So you were
basically labeled difficult early on for being human. As you
(24:06):
know you have a baby yourself. Babies cry, That's how
they communicate. In fact, that is their survival mechanism. So
if a baby is uncomfortable, um in any way, they're hungry,
they're tired, they're saying, hey, I need help, come here,
comfort me. That's the only way they can communicate. And
(24:27):
so it sounds like from even being a newborn, your
parents were saying, we don't want that kind of communication.
We want happy, pleasant communication, and anything else is quote
unquote difficult. And I wonder what it's like for you
now when your son cries, what comes up in you?
(24:49):
Just like be patient with them and hold them and
tell them that it's okay and that I love them anyways.
Do you notice what he said, I love him anyways
like I love you. Despite the fact you're doing this
there a normal thing. So just just to notice how
much your parents have seeped into you. It's it's just
you're showing him that I love you and let me
(25:11):
help you here. I know you're calling out to me
for help. And your son is not being difficult. There's
not loving him despite the fact that he's crying. And
I think that part of the reason that's still in
you is because you haven't accepted that in yourself. That
the work here is really about how are you going
(25:32):
to reframe for yourself, whether you are a person who
is difficult, whether you are too much. I think you
have this sense of I'm too much. I don't want
to approach my parents about this because that will be
too much. Yeah. And you know, over the last few
(25:52):
years of realizing that I deal with normal human things
and talking about them with friends and be like, oh,
you know X, y Z, And then the next day
I'll be like, I shouldn't have told them those things.
Like I'm just like I feel like, oh, I probably
lost them as a friend because I burdened them with
my feelings again and stuff. Did you burden them with
your feelings? Yeah, because that's the unfortunate legacy of your upbringing,
(26:19):
that feelings are burnsome they make you a difficult child,
one worthy perhaps of considering adoption, because this kid has
just things called feelings, and they're making a mess. When
you have these wounds which you carry with you, and
the wounds are still there, and you're getting freshly wounded
(26:40):
each time you interact with your parents. There is nothing
you can do to reframe that, to manage that, to
dismiss it, that will make that not hurt. And I
think that this idea of let me go to therapy
so I can learn how to tolerate and not be
too upset when you tell me that you went home
(27:03):
and you called your mom and I think you said
you were a blubbering, sobbing miss. And this is an
adult and this is recent. It's the proof right that
this still hurts. And it does, Jeff, because it should,
because when somebody speaks to you that way and treats
you that way, especially with the history, it has to hurt.
(27:23):
You said, yes, I think I'm strong enough to do
it for my son. Now I would love you to
be strong enough to do it for yourself, and your
son can benefit from that. But it's you that really
needs to be able to do it. You're the one
that needs to be able to communicate to your parents. You, guys,
I can't keep hurting every time I'm around you. It's
not something I want to keep doing. And I'm sure
(27:45):
it's not something you want to keep doing. Yeah, the
thing about feelings in your household was that feelings were dangerous.
Feelings were messy. Feelings made people uncomfortable. And what I
think your parents couldn't see because of the way they
grew up where feelings were also dangerous and uncomfortable and
(28:09):
messy and inconvenient, was that when you had feelings, it
was about them and their inability to tolerate their own feelings.
So when you had feelings, it brought up feelings and
them you cried. They thought, oh, no, maybe I'm a
bad parent. My kids unhappy. I don't know how to
do that. I need to have my kid be happy
(28:30):
so that I feel good about myself and as a
parent myself, I can say a million feelings come up.
There's that warm like I want to take care of
you and I want to help you. And there's also
the oh my god, the baby's crying again. When am
I ever going to sleep? And like is this normal?
Is my baby healthy? Am I doing everything right? You know?
(28:51):
All of those things are coming up, and to be
able to sit with those feelings you have to really
move into that play. So of I've dealt with my childhood,
and I'm making sure that I'm separating out my own
relationship with feelings that was in my house when I
was growing up with how I feel about that now.
(29:14):
And your parents hadn't done that work, so they weren't
able to do that. But you have begun that work,
and you do have the opportunity to do that, and
so you won't be in this place of overcompensating. Like, okay,
so when my son is crying, I have to only
feel like he's warm, loving feelings towards my child. You
can also feel this is really hard, I can't believe
(29:37):
the kid is crying again, right, Like, that's okay to
feel that. You know, you'll respond to your child and
you'll fold him and feed him and change the staper
or whatever needs to happen. But you can also say
to Lise like, you know, hey, you got this one,
you know, or she'll say to you, you got this
one right, And that's okay to have these moments of
(29:57):
you know, God, this is really hard, I wish this
kid would just leave me alone for an hour. And
also love your kid with you know, every fiber of
your being. And both of those things are true. Your
parents couldn't integrate those two things. Yeah, we do have
(30:31):
some advice for you, and I think what we need
to preface and say is that what's important here is
what you can message to them, the clarity with which
you'll do it, and the follow up which will be
(30:52):
necessary to maintain it. The mark of whether they hear
you is not going to occur in the moment. It's
going to occur when they change or not their behavior,
because that's what happened in that incident with your mom.
She kind of heard it, that made excuses and rebuffed,
but then she stopped saying that thing that you asked
(31:14):
to to stop saying. So the conversation itself would probably
not be a good indication about whether you got through.
It might be are you're gonna have to judgment until
you see what changes in terms of behavior. Okay, Jeff,
I was thinking about how in your family, resilience meant
that you don't have feelings, and the reality is that
(31:37):
you become more resilient when you can actually feel your feelings.
That's a lesson that you've learned as you've moved into adulthood,
and one of your roles as a parent is to
be that child's teacher. And as you move into this
more adult place with your feelings, which is not the
(31:58):
helpless place you were as a child, but the more
empowered place, a place we have agency to respond differently
and to do something different with those feelings as an adult.
That's a lesson that you're learning for yourself, and you
can also be a teacher of those lessons to the
rest of your family. Yeah, your parents don't really understand
(32:24):
this feelings thing, and you do. And do you understand
how human that makes you, how important that is, and
this is something that you need to teach them. They
might not be the most willing students, but this is
something you need to come at as a son who's
(32:48):
understood something and learned something about life. They have not,
and this is your attempt to teach them that. And
why we're emphasizing this aspect of teacher because when you
embody that, it gives you a different stature, It gives
you a different kind of emotional resiliency in that moment
(33:08):
because you're coming from a place of wisdom. I know
something mom and Dad that you don't and that you
really should, So I'm going to try and convey it
to you. You don't say that, but that's the mindset
with which you approach them. And we think you need
to speak to them separately because they are so similar
in their orientation, they would just reinforce one another and
(33:30):
then it would be very difficult to get through. So
we think you should start with your mom and then
talk with your dad soon thereafter. I would like you
to say, mom, being a dad myself has given me
a lot of thoughts about my life. And I recognize
really clearly that you and Dad thought that by um
(33:54):
issuing these kinds of comments and criticisms, I should be
able to take it and it will tougher me up.
But as you know, I'm a sensitive millennial, so that
didn't quite work. And then you'll say, and I am
so glad it didn't, because I can experience my feelings
(34:18):
and I can be in touch with them, and because
I am, I have a request for you. I want
to feel closer to you, and I want my son
to feel close to you, and so I need you
to change your strategy. I need you to understand that
when you criticize me and put me down, even if
(34:38):
it's sometimes jokingly, it actually hurts. And I don't want
to hurt when I am with you, and I know
you don't want me to. So I'm asking you to
do something really difficult, and that is change a habit
you have, and I want you to instead of pointing
(34:59):
out deficits, I want you to be supportive. I want
you to be loving, I want you to be encouraging.
Those are things I want to hear from you, And
those are the things I want my son to hear
from you. And you can say to them that those
comments don't make me stronger, They actually make me weaker.
(35:22):
When I feel your love, your approval, your appreciation, your respect,
that's what makes me stronger. Who boy, can you tell
us more about the Who Boy? You just kind of
just just going over all the things in my head
of like how they're going to respond, which I shouldn't
(35:44):
because that's what's kept me from from saying things in
the past. But when you do go over them in
your head, it makes you feel what so scared? Scared? Yeah?
What's the scary thing that can happen? Just just having
(36:05):
them not be receptive to it or downplay it or
And if you are a teacher, Jeff, are you scared
if your students don't quite get it yet. Is that
Is that a scary thing? Right? It's not. And you're
a teacher here. It's so hard to break out of
(36:25):
the child parent thing and see them as an equal
adult where I can teach. Are not equal. You are
a teacher to them, is my point. And that's the point.
If you try to see them as equal, it's difficult.
You need to see them as not knowing something very
fundamental that you do. And Jeff, this is not a
one time listen. This is a listen that's going to
(36:48):
have to be repeated. You're going to have to assume
this role with them for a long time, and it's
time you did assume it, because somebody should. So instead
of approaching them from that place of like when your
mom hurt you before, we're not saying don't feel that
you will feel what you felt as a child. That's okay.
It's normal to feel hurt when somebody says something hurtful,
(37:11):
especially people that you love, especially people that you feel
like they're not seeing who you are or appreciating who
you are. And so instead of responding from that place,
it's very tender for you, and it takes you back
to that old state of mind that I can't do
anything about this. You are apparent now and you have choices.
(37:32):
So if they don't heed what you say in the
moment when something happens, like they say, oh, you know,
the baby looks so funny, you might have to for
a second be the child in your mind. Go through
that in your mind. Okay, here's my reaction as the
helpless child. But now I'm a teacher and these people
need me to teach them something, and you can say,
(37:52):
very gently, I'm reminding you that it would feel so
much better if you would say, hey, he looks so adorable.
Those comments would make me feel stronger, would make my
son feel stronger, and would also bring us closer to you.
(38:16):
And so, no matter what comes out of these conversations,
the good news that we're hearing is that already you're
being a good parent to yourself, that you understand the
importance of feeling something and acknowledging those feelings and acknowledging
those feelings and other people. And that's what's going to
make you a good parent to yourself, to your son,
(38:43):
and to your parents who need a little bit of reparenting. Yes, Jeff,
one more thing your man might get upset, your dad
might get angry, and if I get you correctly, that
will make you feel after of the fact, guilty. And
I want to let you know that your thermostat for
(39:06):
guilt is set a little low. It's not really correct,
so you will feel guilty when you should not, and
so you're gonna have to disregard it because you're going
to feel afterwards, especially if there was a bruha, which
they might be like, oh, their feelings might be hurt,
they might be upset, they might be bewildered. They'll get
(39:27):
over it because they do care about you and you
care about them. But you do have to say to yourself,
this was necessary. I didn't do anything wrong. In fact,
I did something hugely important. And by the way, not
just for me, not just for my son, not just
for Liz, but for my brothers and for their future children,
(39:49):
because I'm wise enough to be the teacher here and
I am taking that mental Yeah, and you're giving your
parents a gift that they didn't have growing up. They
never had someone say it is okay to feel this,
and this is how people get closer. Yeah, yeah, sorry,
(40:15):
you see, we're just even just apologizing for your tears.
That's that message that you've got that it's not okay
to feel. So, how do you feel about trying this
this week? Oh? I so don't want to, but I
know that it's necessary. Well, so when you say I
still don't want to, who's talking the child of the teacher?
The child, of course, the child. So I want to
(40:36):
ask the teacher. I want to ask the teacher, how
do you feel about trying this out this week? Knowing
what you know about life and how important this lesson is. Ah,
I recognize the importance of it. I do not look
forward to it, but I understand how important it is,
(40:56):
especially for for my son and my partner and as
you say, my siblings, which I yeah, I hadn't even
thought about in this equation, but it's it's necessary and
something I have to do. Let me just reframe it
one more time for you. I want to ask you
the question again, but I want to orient it differently.
(41:17):
Imagine you're gonna talk to your son about this one
day when he's able to understand it. Right, So you're
giving him that message anyway by the way you treat him,
by the way you acknowledge his feelings, by the way
you would live interact with him. But one day, somewhat
besides your parents, is going to give your son the
message it's not okay to feel somebody in the world
(41:38):
will do that, and you, as his teacher, are going
to have a conversation with him when he comes to
you and says that, how do you feel about having
a conversation with him? Empowered? Yeah, just to be able too,
(42:02):
to be able to pass that ability along to my
to my son. It's just something I've struggled with so
much for my whole life. And to be able to
give that seems like a gift and to create a
different legacy for him. And so when you think about
(42:22):
being the teacher and having this conversation with your parents,
that's the perspective that we want you to take. Remember
you're the teacher, and I know it's a lot of
recalibration for you, separating the little boy that you were
(42:43):
from the wise teacher that you've become. Thank you for
the encouragement. Well, but if it's completely true, just think
from it. How much more sophisticated emotionally are you then
they are? How much more than understand ending of emotions
do you have them they do. I mean, it's it's
(43:03):
a gulf. You recognize that right that that you are
in a position to talk about emotions in a way
that's famer knowledgeable then they are. Yeah, it's just so
hard to break out of the just the idea that
your parents are above you and have it all figured
out and that you have could ever possibly teach them something.
(43:25):
What you're doing here is not just teaching your parents.
You're reparenting yourself. Yeah, you're being a good parent to yourself.
And you have a choice every time you go back
into that place of oh, I can't do this, or
to take a breath and say, wait a minute, I
(43:46):
need to learn how to be a good parent to
myself because the stakes are very high. If I can't
be a good parent to myself, no matter how good
my intentions are, I will not be a good parent
to my son. So I have to do this first
with myself in order to give my son the thing
(44:07):
that I want to give him more than anything else
in the world. Yeah, that's true, that's all I want
to give. You will do this, You will have this conversation.
It will go as it will go, but you will
do your best. After you've had it, and after you
know how difficult it was to have, how impressed with
(44:29):
yourself fully be very proud good, So yes, do it
and then feel really proud of yourself for doing it.
And I want to say one last thing. You mentioned
that that time that your parents made a comment about
your appearance, that it was Liz who said to you
(44:51):
that's not okay. And you then went home and called
and said I didn't like that, right, and then the
behavior stopped. The conversation to and go swimmingly, but the
behavior stopped. I want you to as part of this
enlist list, just to let her know that you're doing this,
(45:12):
so that you have that support going in. We want
you to tell her before you make these calls. Here's
what I'm going to do. Here's the rationale behind it.
Here is my role as a teacher. Here is how
that's going to help me become a better parent to myself,
which in turn will make me a better parent to
our child. Here's how it's going to help you. Here's
(45:35):
how it's going to help my brothers. And here's how
in some way it will help my parents. I can
do this great good. Thank you. Okay, Well, we look
forward to hearing what happens, and remember we'll be rooting
for you. Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the
(45:59):
time to talk with me. I liked him a lot,
a lot, what a lovely person, and I'm so glad
he found a lovely wife. Yeah, he was in such
a common predicament with being sort of caught between the
(46:20):
childhood self and the adult self that he's started to
grow into. And what you have to do in that
scenario is you have to use your adult self to
do something that feels really unnatural and really scary, but
it's in the doing of it that you become the adult. Yeah.
I'm really glad that he has Liz, because I think
(46:42):
she's going to be a great support for him when
the child walks into the metaphorical classroom and the teachers
trying to talk. And I'm really glad he has his
son because his son has forced him to grow up.
I think for him having that conversation that he's so
afraid to have, it will be such a growth experience
that it will make it all worth while. Yeah, this
(47:03):
is one of those things where you see the benefit
in the long term. You're listening to dear therapists from
My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a quick break.
You're listening to dear therapist from my Heart Radio. So
(47:26):
we heard back from Jeff, and I'm really looking forward
to this one. I hope it went well for him. Yeah,
that was not an easy role reversal we were asking
him to try. So let's go hear what happened. Hey, Laurie,
Hey guys, it's Jeff. So I did it. I had
the conversations that I never thought i'd be able to
have with my folks. Leading up to it, I was
super nervous, like nauseous even, but after talking it through
(47:49):
with Liz, realized that that was the child in me,
not the adult or the teacher. As you had mentioned,
I had to really remain mindful and remind myself that
is doing the right thing, and that it's okay to
express those needs and those feelings. I approached both of
the conversations as you had mentioned, that I've thought a
(48:10):
lot about what it means to be a parent and
a child, and that I understand their criticisms and the
way that they raised us to not acknowledge hard feelings,
that that was just their way of fostering strength and
resilience in us, and that while I appreciate and love
them for all that they've done for me, that those
comments and flippant dismissals of you know, concerns and feelings
(48:31):
that I that I have and that people have are
are not okay, That they hurt and they can make
them feel really small or invalid, and that in the
future I'd appreciate it if they could be mindful of
those things and either don't say anything at all or
instead act in ways that uplift and encourage, especially as
it relates to their grandchild. The The conversation with my
(48:55):
mom didn't go so great. There were moments where she
said like you should know that I really love you,
and her saying like okay, okay, I'll try. But she
told me that I don't really have it that bad,
and that I'm being too sensitive and that I'm essentially
asking her and my father to censor themselves. She said
(49:15):
it's naive or even foolish for me to ask for
someone to change their character, and that she doesn't want
to have to constantly have to think about what she
says in front of me, and that if we raise
our sun like this, that he won't be able to
take negative feedback as he gets older. So I think
I had a lot of hope that it would be
this magical conversation and I would finally feel seen, but
(49:37):
I really didn't. It was really hard. I felt like
I did a pretty good job in standing my ground,
and I'm proud of myself for not backing down on
my needs and feelings and trying my best to remember
that these are reasonable requests. And I wasn't a blubbering mess.
But I did leave the conversation feeling really upside down,
(49:57):
and the child within me felt really invalidated. The conversation
with my father, thankfully, it went really well. He was
really gracious and kind. He listened, He acknowledged that he
can be this way, and you apologized for it, said
that it was never his intention to make me feel
small or shamed, but that it was a misguided way
(50:19):
of showing affection, poking fun, and that he'll be more
mindful of it with me and around his grandson. He
noted that he's always had a hard time talking about feelings,
especially difficult ones, and said he was really encouraged and
happy to see that I'm getting better at doing it myself.
I left that conversation feeling proud, relieved, and and hopeful
(50:41):
for the future. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've
got an emotional hangover that's gonna last a week, but
I feel that I've done something incredibly important for myself
and for my family, laid some groundwork so I feel
more comfortable expressing myself and setting boundaries. I just want
to say thanks again for helping me to see that
the approach I was taking changing my relationship with pain
(51:04):
rather than actively working to heal that I wasn't working
for me. But you made me feel seen and heard,
and you gave me the encouragement to feel like I
could have those conversations with my parents and that it
was normal, that that I'm normal and it's reasonable to
to ask for those things. So thank you so much.
Thanks Larry, Thanks Guy m Well. What people can't see
(51:26):
is that while we're listening to this voicemail, you and
I were nodding and smiling a lot. And I think
that's because even though the conversation with his mother was
very difficult, it's still set the groundwork for some internal
work that he's doing himself, where he is being the teacher,
and yes, the child part of him felt wounded by
(51:48):
that conversation, and the child part of him felt gratified
by the conversation with his father. But I think when
he goes back into the teacher position, what came out
of it was different way of viewing himself, his place
as as a parent, his place as a husband, his
place as a son, and that he really has something
(52:10):
very valuable to teach everyone in his family, but particularly himself. Yes,
that conversation with his mom didn't go well. That groundwork
was established, as he said, the groundwork for him to
give her a look the next time she does it,
and for her to give him a look, but pause
and maybe not do it for the third time. And
so I think that he actually accomplished more than he realized. Right.
(52:35):
And also the fact that the father was so receptive
to this and was able to really listen for Jeff,
he had not felt listened to it all by his parents,
and so to have his father really take that in
and apologize and say I'm going to be mindful of this.
I think that when the mother does this again, now
he's got the father a little bit on board, and
(52:56):
that will be very helpful too, And I think the
bottom line here is that it's never too late to
change a family dynamic, even once you're an adult. The
way family dynamics work is that if one person creates
a real shift, it forces the other people to shift
as well, and that's what Jeff did here. Hey fellow travelers,
(53:21):
if you've used any of our advice from the podcast
in your own life, send us a quick voice memo
to Lori and Guy at I heart media dot com
and tell us about it. We may include it in
a future show that brings us to the end of
our show for this week. Thank you so much for listening.
If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to
rate and review it. You can follow us both online.
(53:45):
I'm at Lori Gottlieb dot com and you can follow
me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb I or on Instagram
at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author. And I'm at Guy Wench
dot com. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at Guy Wench.
If you a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
big or small, email us at Lorian Guy at I
(54:05):
heart Media dot com. Our executive producers Christopher hasci Otis
were produced and edited by Mike John's Special thanks to
Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Correct.
Next Week, a woman copes with her husband's infidelity. It
has come out and therapy that the relations have been
(54:25):
with men. However, my husband is very closed off and
kind of I just wanted to go away. Dear Therapist
is a production of I Heart Radio
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