April 23, 2026 • 49 mins
From chasing “trouble” as a kid to earning the nickname “Ticketmaster” on base, Navy veteran and NCIS tech advisor Michael Smith tells Wilmer and Freddy how he became a master interrogator- and why he calls out Hollywood when the tactics on cop shows don’t feel real.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey, everybody, This is Freddie Rodriguez.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Wilmer Valderama. Welcome to those amigos today. Were
visited by someone very dear to me, Uh, someone that
I've been working with for a couple of years now.
He's been part of the the big percentage of television
that has gotten it right. Okay, I'm just gonna go
ahead and read some of your you know, some of
(00:34):
your because this is this is also a time to
give you flowers, because I think it's important that I
get publicly, uh, you know, historically record the way I
feel about you. So I'm gonna I'm gonna just I'm
gonna read a few things. Uh, just so everyone understands.
You've had twenty years of service, right uh you Your
(00:54):
rank at retirement was Master at Arms, Chief Petty Officer seven.
You entered the Navy in the nineteen eighties, initially trained
as an aviation electrician, then became law enforcement. Was not yet,
it was not yet a Navy career path, right, it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
It wasn't.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It wasn't invented. Let's see, first assignment was what is it?
A seven E jets with a tax squadron VA two
oh four in New Orleans. Right, we're going to get
back to New Orleans at some point. Transition to law enforcement,
requesting transfer to based security after being inspired by a
(01:35):
colleague on a security detail, attended Security Forces school at
Lachlan Air Force Base. And here's a few places that
you've kind of been to. Naval air Station Reserve based
New Orleans, Naval support activity in New Orleans as well,
Naval support activity Magdalena, Italy.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
So what it was.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Madelina Madelina, Madelina, Madelina, Italy so, Naval support activity Madelina,
Italy and uh NEV Constructor Battalion centered go for Mississippi
USS care Search.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
USS Harry S.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Truman Aircraft is Okay, Roles Held Commander of Police Assistant,
the Master at Arms, Security Forces, Leading Petty Officer, Command Investigator.
And there is a major list of awards that we're
going to in spare everyone because it's another page. But
(02:44):
but you know the way I know you, and let
me start by saying thank you for your service.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
The way I know you is you've been kind of that,
uh the guardian angel of honor and respect to the forces.
When it comes to entertainment, you're the guy that makes
sure that when he gets to the screen, it's.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Not too far from what he really is.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I know some showrunners pushing to look the other way,
but you and I don't look the other way, you know.
And we'll talk a little bit more about that. But
he is our military tech advisor. He is someone who's
been in advising for a very long time. Would you say,
I get what was your first project advising? Because I
remember I mejor even during NCS New Orleans, which was
(03:31):
a long time ago. It's like the first two years
when I joined the NCAIS universe, which was almost ten
years ago.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
But how do you start that I started? When?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Did I start twenty fourteen with the NCIS New Orleans?
Speaker 5 (03:44):
And that was your absolute first Hollywood project?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
No, it was the first one.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
I can't remember, so long story short, classified, I was
still that I was still elected to do the name.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I think it was in the nineties.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
I can't remember the actor, but he was doing a
movie where he had to be on an Indian reservation
and he was playing an FBI agent and he wanted
to know how to really handcuff fast. So my mentor,
Bob Lindsey, three years running back in the nineties was
the number one law Enforce trainer in the United States
and number three in the world.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
And he was my mentor and he trained me to
be a trainer. And he says, hey, we got this
movie start coming out. He wants me to train him
a handcuff and I need your help. So the movie
star came out and sure enough, we spent a whole
weekend with him and he wanted to know how to
just handcuff real fast in real life. So we trained
him and he did the movie and I forget the
name of the movie, but it was an FBI agent
(04:43):
and he had to go on the Indian Reservation. This
was back in the eighties, I think eighties or nineties,
and that was my first But I was a little
arrogant back then, and I think I was asked to
go on set, and I says, I'm a Navy guy.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I'm not going on nobody Hollywood set.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Now you come to New Orleans and we'll train you
and then you can go back to Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
But I'm not going to Hollywood. I'm a lady, right,
you know. Years later here I am welcome to Well.
I've always thoughted.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
I always said, even my first time being on the
show in NCIS New Orleans, I helped out with costumes
because of the The tech advisor was Dwayne Square. He
passed away three years into the show, but me and
him were together for fourteen years during joint cases because
I'm not I never was an NCIS agent. I was
a Navy Law Enforcement Master Arms, which is the MP
(05:37):
equivalent in the Navy Military Police equivalent. So as a
command investigator, I would work cases with NCIS jointly. So
me and him work cases fourteen years together, off and
on in different areas. And so he asked me to
help out with costumes because he was like, Mike, I
know nothing about these Navy costumes.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
So how did you go from this movie in the
eighties where you were just training somebody to do handcuffs
to to was that your sort of second foray into
into Hollywood?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Yes, it was Dwayne swear because the Mothership in side
show wanted to do a spin off in New Orleans,
but it wasn't its own show when it first came out.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
There was supposed to just be four episodes.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Where they came down from d C and investigated some cases.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
In New Orleans? Right now? Was it?
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Four episodes? So I get a call from Dwayne Sweater retired.
They just says, Mike, they're gonna come down here Gary Glassberg,
and he's got to show him around New Orleans.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Garry Osberg was the showrunner of NCA is the most see.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I didn't know who he was.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
And it's like, look, we got to show in New Orleans,
this and that, and Dwayne was excited about it for
these four episodes.
Speaker 5 (06:44):
So were you like all these Hollywood guys again, man, like, I'm.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Not leaving by.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
I'll give you advice you ain't even got. You ain't
got to pay me because I love you, Dwyane. You
showed me the scripts. Man, I'll make you look, I'll
tell you exactly what to do because I'm not That's it.
And so he asked me to come out the first
time to come out. They were doing a major scene
in City Park, a gala, a gala that was going
to go from day to night. So now we got
(07:12):
two hundred background all in costumes. Can you come help costumes?
Like yeah, but they gotta pay me for that if
I got to show up. So I went out there
didn't have to be there until two o'clock on a Friday,
so I said, it's great, I don't have to get
up early.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I lived in Mississippi. Let me drive over to New
Orleans and I'm helping.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
But what I love about the show business is that
I went in my real uniform and everybody there looked
at me. Nobody had met me before, and they said,
that's a real uniform.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
So how do they know it?
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Because everybody looks like there's a whole bunch of military
navy uniforms. How can they know Minds is real? All
the background knew the regulars they won, and it's supposed
to be a twelve hour day, so I said, we'll
finish about one o'clock in the morning. The only reason
they stopped filming Saturday morning was because the sun came up.
(07:59):
And I said, I ever coming back. That was my
I said, y'all are crazy.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Here.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, don't ever call me back. I might.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
No, it's not usually like this, man, It's great, No,
it's not. I'm never coming back. So that was my
first day on a set and I said I'm never
coming back, And twelve years later, I keep coming back.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Let's throw it back to when you were a young
man and you said, I want to serve my country.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
You know what was that moment? Like, where did that
come from?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Where were you born?
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I was born in Panama City, Florida, attended Bay High School.
I've always loved serving people, helping people. I just you know,
I wasn't a boy scout, but I actually liked one.
I just if a little older lady needed help, if
somebody needed help, if you got picked on in my
high school, I would tell everybody, don't pick on this person,
(08:50):
because we shouldn't be picking on people. I just felt
like I wanted to serve. And then I said, I
either want to go in the military or law enforcement.
So I became a member of the Police Athletic League
as a teenager, and I would box and the local
cops and the detectives taught us how to box. We
would go to little competitions and they had this one
detective in my neighborhood. His uh, his name was I
(09:13):
want to say, Mike Jones. That's funny because you got
the rapper Mike Jones. His name, his name was Mike Yeah,
and he was notorious for for having his own style
of police work, kind of what you would see on
TV with Hill Street Blues.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
His own style.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
He had his own style style. But if you ran
from Mike Jones, he would run up next to you.
He would drive up next to you and open the
car door to knock you down. He was old school eighties,
but he had the respect of the community. You know,
you you knew, don't mess with him, and he got
the job done. And I kind of looked up to that.
(09:52):
I said, well, I don't want to be that because
he's kind of nasty, but I do want to, you know,
serve and protect the community, either with military law enforcement.
I I was in a Junior ROTC Air Force JROTC,
and and I didn't like the Air Force because everybody
was perfect. I would get in trouble from time to time.
So I knew once I left my parents' house at
(10:13):
eighteen and went in the military, that trouble would find
me and I would find trouble. So based on that,
I said, I can't go into Air Force because they
will kick you out if you get in trouble the
first time. So I talked to the neighbor recruiter and
he says, well, you can mess up about three or
four times before we kick you out. We expect you
to get in there, have fun, you know, get it
out your system, and then get serious about the Navy.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
And I was like, that's psal.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
That was how many times could I get in?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I will get in trouble.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
I only need to find trouble trying to have a
good time, or trouble will find me. We always meet
up when I was a teenager, and me in trouble
would get along have fun, and trouble would leave me
in trouble, and trouble would go away. So I had
to go to a military branch of the military that
understood even now, trouble, nothing big, just trouble that maybe
(11:04):
it was perfect. As a matter of fact. When I
got in, I found out my goal was to make chief.
I just wanted to be a chief because all these
chiefs I had talked to, most of them had been
in some trouble early in life and that made them a.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Better chief when they grew.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
So their model was, we don't trust you if you
hadn't got in a little trouble. If I go on
a mission with you and things go wrong, I want
to know that you don't have to pull out destructure
man on how to do this combat mission that you
can just move and adapt to the trouble that you're facing.
You wasn't briefed on A, B and C. Now you're
facing D, E and F. Can you keep going right?
(11:42):
So that's what trouble taught.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Can you have the versatility to think about instinctly how
to actually create a path and real.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Exactly when you're facing trouble in the feeling and Plus,
trouble allowed for growth because I really found out where
when you get in trouble because on acurage and commitment
is the core value of the Navy's so courage. So
when you get in trouble on your personal life, can
you come back to work and tell your supervisor the
truth without giving your supervisor a pretty lie? If you
(12:10):
can do that when you get in trouble personally, when
you do something wrong with the military, they trust you
to come back and have the courage to tell them, hey,
I'm messed up so that we all can come together
and fix it. But if you try to cover it
up and lie and come back with a pretty lie,
well that happened.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Somebody else must have did it. I don't know what
went wrong.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Then you don't get a military a chance to fix it.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Very important, very important.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
That's really interesting how you chose where you belonged in
the military, right. It's it's like when you're in school,
like there are some kids that are more academically inclined, right,
there are some kids that are more sports inclined, right,
or arts inclined. And that's sort of how you find
find your tribe.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You know.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
And that's I've never heard it broke down this way,
and that's how you you found the Navy.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
And I absolutely love the Navy even from the start
because the Navy person that we look at ourselves as
the jack of all trades and the master of nothing.
So in the Navy, you can do things like cross
weight rate. You can try to get your surface warfare
air warfare pen. That means, example, on the ship, if
(13:21):
there's three thousand people on the ship and we lost
seventy five percent of the people, as long as those
other twenty five a surface war train, they can run
that ship and fight the trip like this's three thousand people.
So the Navy operated with small numbers and would do
the same thing. I give you an example as an
air force squadron of planes. The Navy may come with
(13:43):
two thirds less planes, two thirds less manpower, but we
can do the same mission as a fully manned air
for shit. And we would go to competitions and they
would look at us and be like, where's the rest
of your crew?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
This is it?
Speaker 4 (13:56):
You all are gonna Well, yeah, you all are working
eight hours a day and going home. We're working eighteen
hours a day, going and partying and coming back to work.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Right, that's the count.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Right, So that was a neighbor. We'll go all day long, every.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Day and operate at full capacity until the mission's over.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
So if so, if the Air Force you had to
be perfect, the Navy you you fit? Why not the
Marines or the Army.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Oh I just knew that wasn't a fifth for me.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
I was not that boots on the grounds, comeback type soldier. However,
I always inspired to be boots on the ground in
the concrete jungle. And we consider the concrete jungle the
United States military basis, because every day there's a war
out there for military law enforcement to fight. Every day,
somebody's trying to impact our communities, impact our soldiers while
(14:47):
they're home during r and r the soldiers are facing trouble,
the Navy sailors are facing trouble and dependent. So we're
that military force, that law enforcement force that operates in
the concrete jungle, which is the street cent the United States.
So they operate boots on the ground, in the desert,
in the jungles overseas, But who protects them when they're
(15:07):
at home? And just like what you're saying in the
news Now, I stay away from politics, but last week
I believe or the Secretary of Defense approved for military
commanders to authorize military person and to carry their personal
weapons on a military basis. We had fought for that
forever because we were like when we deploy, we get
(15:31):
guns issued, and we carry guns all day long overseas,
but when we come back home, it was fully restricted
for anybody to have a personal weapon on a military base.
But for the first time, that's been changed. So when
you come back home, you can protect yourself. Because what
has happened in the past is that's say Navy ship
goes over and gets into a war and or conflict
(15:51):
and does some bombings or whatever, and they come back
to the United States.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
This happened years ago.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
You can google it, but there was one captain he
got assassinated. I think his vehicle was blown up with
his family in it because he kept in that ship
on that mission. So the terrorists following him back to
his homeland in the United States, where we're a soft target,
they tracked him down. I think they killed him and
his family.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
You know the well may or may not get into
this too, but the creation of the react units were
a very similar situation. You know that we're an equipped
to defend themselves in the base, and then there was
an active shooter and and he created quite a mess.
So they realized, oh man, we really have to have
a response team here at home too, you know. Yeah,
(16:45):
So going to the beginnings of you know, I was
an investigator too. What was that first case you got
called and you were like, we got a situation.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Mike, Do I even remember?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Okay, so or a case that you remembered that you
were like, oh, okay, this is what I'm built to do.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Well, I can give you a situation without going into
a case right now. But I've always dreamed to be
an investigator once. I because when you first came in
the Navy in the eighties, like I did. You couldn't
go straight into law enforcement. You had to have a
few years under your belt in the Navy and then
you could apply for law enforce because they wanted you
to understand the essence of the Navy. They wanted you
to understand Navy life before you started doing law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
So I went through that. I was in aviation.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
I learned a lot in aviation, learned how the Navy worked,
and I came to act to do the Navy, and
I became a Master at Arms. So back then I
didn't understand the spirit of the law. I thought it
was a letter of the law. So one of my
first nicknames that I had over the years was a RoboCop.
(17:58):
RoboCop was one of my first nicknames because when I
was on patrol, if the rule book said.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
This and you violated that, that's that period. There was
no gray area. There was no spirit of the law.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
So I'm glad over the years I was taught the
spirit of the law. Because my second nickname was ticketmaster.
If you were I would set on, I would just
post up, and if you were five miles old the
speed limit, you were getting pulled old. I didn't want
to hear anything and you were giving a ticket. I
have one funny situation when I was ticketmaster. It was
(18:32):
on a Saturday and I was on a joint base
where you had a joint services and an Air Force
nurse was speeding in housing about thirty or fifteen, and
I was particularly about the housing area. You don't want
to hit a kid, So I pulled the old on
a Saturday morning. You know, she thought she was very attractive,
(18:53):
and she thought she shouldn't get a ticket just because
of the way she looked, and I didn't want to
hear any of it. I stroked her ticket and said
he an nice day. Later that day, I get know
that Monday, I get a call from the Chief of
police on the basis, since I need you in my office.
I worked eating the shift, so Monday morning I got
to come to his office and stand tall. Yes, see
what's going on. She was in the office setting in
(19:13):
his chair, and he says, we got a problem. This
young lady sit here, said you did a traffic stop
on and you asked her for her phone number, and
I said, well, let me get my ticket book because
I don't I wrote. So I would write forty fifty
tickets a day when I was a ticketmaster.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
So you had a record.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
Oh yeah, So anyway, I go back through my ticket,
but okay, chief, Yeah, yeah, I did ask her. For
a matter of fact, I asked for her home number
and cell phone. I'm I sure did he said, you did? Yeah,
see him on the ticket. There's a block for cell
phone number, there's a block for work and home number.
And I asked her for all three of those.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Because most people are just living blank. They're like, here,
you go pay the ticket.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Oh she tried this sort of making you were trying
to yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
And I was like, just like I asked everybody. Yeah.
He looked at me, dismissed. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
So your thoroughness got you called into the office.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Uh fast forward, uh fast forward a month later. Uh
uh me and this young lady was on a lunch date.
Oh man, true story, true story, true story. She came
in the office on a drill weekend. Is hey, I apologize,
you know, She says, I was flirting with you. You didn't
(20:33):
flirt back, you were just stiff. And she says she's
never gotten a ticket from a mail officer. She's always
gotten out of it.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And I was the first one that toxic relationship.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
That she couldn't shake.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
So yeah, so that was one of my first, uh,
you know, situations. But fast forward, I became a patrol supervisor.
One situation down, and I'm not going to name the base.
We had a runway abandoning the runway and there was
six sticks of dynamite all wrapped up nice and neat
(21:10):
on a Sunday, and some children in the housing the
found it. They called it in and I sent one
of them. I sent my youngest and single patrolman out
to go look at it. So you go take a
look at it. Because in the military we do things
a certain way, and it was like, so if something
goes wrong, we wanted to go wrong with this person.
(21:30):
He understood the assignment, so he went out, came back,
and he says, yes, there, so okay, we're gonna post up,
We're gonna follow the procedures. So I'm trying to follow
a procedure. And the surveyor in charge of our department
at the time, he got the call and he came out,
you know, he's like, Hey, where's this thing at I
want to go look at it, sir, you can't go
(21:50):
look at it.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
It's cordon off were waiting on EOD you know, disclosers.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Bomb unit. We're going by the book. The base commanders
are where. He says, Now, there's no way. There's six
sticks of dynamite that I want to go look at it.
I said, but he's my boss on a day to day.
But once an incident comes happens, it's called an incident
command structure that takes an effect. So I have positional authority.
(22:16):
So you can't. I said, you could lead an office,
but you can't go out there.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
He goes.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Anyway, I get a call from the patrol and I said, look,
let him do whatever he's going to do, and if
he does something crazy, stay away from him. And he
did something crazy. He looked at it and said he
don't think it's real. I mean six sticks of dynamite
with a timer on it. And he says he doesn't
think it's real. And guess what he does. He picks
it up and he says it's not real. So all
(22:42):
the one of my guys that was at the gate
leading away from that place, don't let him leave because
in that timer it could be fake dynamite. But in
that time it could be some seafoor. I just don't
play with these things. So sure enough they wouldn't let
him leave. He was upset. FBI, all the three alphabet
people came out. They agreed bomb squadified and make it.
(23:03):
They cording him off, you know, around his vehicle, his
truck went through the process. And what happened is the
ad National Guard unit they were training out that weekend
and they were doing some explosives training and.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
They left that out there.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
But everybody applauded the procedures because that's what you're supposed
to do.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
And my boss kind of got in trouble.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
So that was that was the first kind of like
you know, it was no, no, it was fake.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It was a decoy, but it was part of the
training now right.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
But the EOD said you should have never moved it
because you put fake dynamite sticks there and then inside
the case where the time it was What if some
C four would have been in there and the person
was waiting for you to bring it inside of a
building to clack clack and explode it. So that that
is a story of me falling the rules.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
No gray area.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
You know, I know my positional authority. You know, I
don't care if you're my boss, not you're not my boss.
When an incident is a current, I'm the boss when
it's an incident.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
With that effect your relationship with him, Oh.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Give me twenty absolute.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Well, he was an overall boss, the officer in charge,
but under him was the chief of police, and the
chief police is smith. He did the right thing, he says,
but you gotta watch it. You gotta watch a step.
And now I could have boss if you if you sneeze,
you're in trouble. If anybody else sneeze, is there, okay?
And I said, I'll with that badge of honor, I'm
that person.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
It was a challenge, but he had to be careful
on how he moved because it looked obvious if he
went against me.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
What one case scenario.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
When I was in the military about eight years, I
was a master law Enforcement trainer in the Federal rem
and the Civilian RAM because of my mentor Bob Lindsey,
the one that helped me with the handcuffing. So I
would get calls from everywhere to go do training. And
I got a call to go down for to train
the federalities in Mexico City, Mexico. So I took leave.
(24:57):
I took vacation, and my boss pulls me in off.
He says, why are you going to Mexico City, Mexico.
So that's personal, he says, tell me, or I would
disapprove your lead paper.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
So I tell him.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
He says, put your badge and everything on the table,
all your credentials. You will not take them with you.
Nobody else has ever told. I said, okay, fine, funny story.
So when I get down to Mexico City, Mexico, and
I start training with the federality, it's true story.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
I won't mention any name.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
So the colonel in charge of the whole program man,
he says, hey, Mike, show me show your guys, your guys,
your badges, and your credentials for the Navy. So what
I don't happen? He says, why not? And I tell
him the story. It's funny. Now, wasn't it funny about it?
He says, you tell your boss, you send him a
message for me. Tell him his is to never come
(25:42):
down there. If he ever comes down here, he'll never leave.
And uh, this guy takes me to his headquarters building.
Now I'm nervous. He one day he takes me to
his headquarters building. I'm thinking I'm finna be arrested because
he tells his guys take a picture of him, put
them up against the wall. And I'm like, wait a minute, y'all,
are you all trying to keep me? Take me hustage?
And before I left, he gave me their credentials and
(26:04):
their badge. He says, you tell your boss your federality.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Now you're one of us.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
You're one of us. True story.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So with what all of these experiences and you know,
you know, you how do you look at all the
elements of all these cases and all the things you've answered,
and all the operations that you've been a part of,
and how do you filter that in your experience when
it comes to take advice and on shows?
Speaker 3 (26:42):
You know?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And what's the biggest challenge when that you see when
you're when you're trying to technically advice you know, a production.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
What what what I learned in the Navy, and it
transcends to the the film industry, is that once I
became a chief. When you make chief in the Navy,
it's a big deal. You go through this big initiation
training process and it's just you have to learn about
all military branches, all ranks, and they just put you
through the ringer for months because you're the expert.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
In the Navy.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
If a chief walks in and somebody has a question,
they're going to turn and say, well, ask the chief,
and that chief will find out if I don't know
that you can ask me about banana pudding. I'm gonna
call a chief that's a chef, and he's going to
tell me about banana pudding. I'm gonna come back to
you and tell you about banana pudding. It doesn't make
a difference. So what I learned in the Navy is
but first of all, once I my rank, I got
(27:38):
to a high enough rank of master on his first class,
I was able to apply for a command investigator and
go to the investigator school, which military investigators in the
Navy are trained by the Army. That Fort Leonarwood, Missouri
is the military police investigator school. You do everything an
agent does, except for you don't do cases with a
dead body. And I learned that from and see I
(28:00):
asked because I had to work dead bodies with them.
Once I came back, it was kind of an OJT.
The one thing I didn't appreciate was the interviewing interrogation
technique that we were taught. It's called the read technique
of interviewing interrogation. It's good cop, bad cop, the stuff
you see on TV. And as I tried to use it,
I noticed that the criminals during that era and even today,
(28:24):
they can sniff out a lie. Most humans can sniff
out a lie. So when you try to play good
cop bad cop, those people will get caught up in
that and get called out by the bad guy. So
now you've lost the bad guy because you disrespect the
bad guy.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
You know they you lied to them. You know.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
One of the biggest lies that you're taught with that
type of technique is I may walk in if you're
the suspect, and I may say, you know what, you
tell me the truth, I will not arrest you. And
me and Wilma are the cops. And you look at
me and say you want arrest me. No, I promise you,
I want to arrest you if you tell me the truth.
So you tell me the truth, and I look at Wilmer,
I said, you're arresting Yeah, right to.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Me, that's dirty.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
You know when I walk in the room, I look
a here, this is who I am. I want to
help you. Oh, you're going to jail. So I'm gonna
tell you're going to jail. But can I help you
get less time when you get out? Can I help
you get a job in a career, because.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Some things are inevitable.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, if you did, you're.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Going to jail.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
But my thing is where did life go wrong? So
my interviews will be so long because I want to
go back and figure out where life went wrong, because
any of us life can go wrong. I would tell
every suspect that I interviewed that was in a bad situation.
I said, there's nothing separating me and you let the
wrong thing go wrong. Let somebody attack one of my daughters.
I'm in that seat. There is no I apologies, No,
(29:46):
I'm coming after you, and I'm gonna be having my
rights read to me if you put your hands on
my daughter point blank. And I would tell them that.
They look at me like for real, say yeah, I
can't touch my daughters. I'm not a cop. That I'm dad,
and so I can with my own style of interrogation
and believe it or not. Last year I got a
call from NCA. I said and said, they're going to
(30:07):
start using my technique. Once I found out what life
wren wrong, then we would talk about what happened. And
I've learned through that technique to not tell the suspect
I believe you did it. You know most cauts, we
know you did it. No, no, no. I would go
in and be like, what if the person that got hurt,
(30:29):
how did they attribute to their own.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Pain?
Speaker 4 (30:33):
The other words, did they because believe it or not,
ninety percent of the people that get hurt by another
person had something to do with getting themselves hurt. You know,
like if I tell if a bad guy says, stop
messing with my wife and you don't you mess with
his wife again and he hurts you, you were waring?
Why did you keep you know, like, don't push me,
and you push me and I hurt you. Now you're
(30:54):
calling the police. So and usually when I'm talking to
a suspect, they would gladly tell me what that person
did to get themselves hurt. And if they could tell
me every detail of what that person did to get
themselves hurt, that means you're the person that hurt them.
So we're not talking about you hurting them, We're talking
about what they did to get hurt. And that's the
way I went into interviews and interrogations, and I would
(31:16):
let them know straight up, Hey, if you had a
lawyer in here, they would tell you, don't talk to me.
Your best advice is not to talk to me because
I'm going to break you. I break ninety percent of
the people I interrogate. But I'm also the guy that's
going to kind of help you. See what's the best
best path to go down to get you to the less
amount of punishment Because you didn't put yourself in that chair.
Somebody helped put you in that chair. If that was
(31:37):
the case. Now, if it wasn't the case and you
were just an evil guy, I would tell you, you know,
my worst.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Case was an evil guy.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
And if you don't mind me sharing this, So there
was I got a call from NCIS because some agents
had seen my interrogation technique and NCIS agency are held
to a specific standard and they don't go outside the standard.
(32:05):
I was a military investigator, so I could float into
in this gray area. So I got a call to
go to meet them at a police agency. And I'm
not even gonna say the state. They had been interrogating
this guy with the local police for about six hours.
He was believed to have killed his navy wife. So
they called me down and one of an agents said, hey, Mike,
(32:26):
can you break this guy. Y'all can break them. Y'all
had him hollow six hours. Okay, he's pissed off. He's
a career criminal. He had previously been arrested and in
jail for years for killing one of his girlfriends lovers
and an attempted to kill his girlfriend, and his Navy
wife met him in prison when she was visiting her
(32:47):
son who was in prison. So I go down to
the to interrogate him, and I said, look, y'all already
messed this up. In my opinion, it's going to be hard.
I'm going to break him, but I'm not going to
have him tell me what he did to his wife,
because I knew his wife. She was a great woman,
a military PEDI alsher just great person, and I don't
want to hear it because it's gonna break my heart emotion.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
I said, Okay, okay, Mike. They didn't believe me.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
So I go in and I'm interrogating this guy, and
I'll tell him say, look, whatever they told you, don't
listen to me.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
He was pissed off of them.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
They played the good cop, bad cop, and I says,
don't repeat nothing you said to them.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Here's the deal. I know who killed your wife.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
He says, you do. You need to get out there
and get him. I said, no, let's talk about I
know who killed your wife. And he says, who killed
my wife? I said, the Navy killed your wife. He says,
the Navy killed my wife. I said, yeah, last year,
all this time, whenever the Navy calls your wife one
o'clock in the morning to it, she gets up and
she leaves. Now, you've been incarcerated for years and the
only thing you know is respect, and that's disrespectful to you.
(33:49):
You wake up at two o'clock in the morning ask
your wife to go to the store. She's going to
be like, you're crazy. To go back to sleep. So
your wife has more safe The Navy has more safe
so over your wife than you do. That's disrespect I
asked here. When those guys brought your wife home in
the middle of the night because she was late coming
from work, you pulled a piscil out on them, and
you lied about it because you're on probation and you
(34:09):
would go back to jail for eleven years. I said,
don't admit to that, not yet, because if they hear you,
they're listening, you'll be admitting to a crime and you'll
have to go back to jail. So later on in
the conversation, I was like, show me some respect and
tell me the truth about that gun you pulled on
knowing that you'll go back to jail. He said, you
dog gonna ride out there, he said, I showed. I said,
thank you for that. Now we respecting each other. I said,
(34:31):
Now let's get to who killed your wife. I said,
remember it was a navy and she had a part
in that whole being killed herself. And he says, what
do you mean. I said, in that bedroom, y'all got
into an argument. She pulled a gun on you because
that's what the Navy taught her. How dare she pulled
a gun on you. That's disrespectful. So you took the
gun and you shot her, simple as that. So he
(34:54):
looked at me, he says, you know what you right?
I said, hold on, I don't want to hear. I said,
don't tell me nothing, because I had love.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
For your wife.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
Man, your wife was a super great woman, a great
I don't want to hear about what happened in that bedroom.
I know the Navy killed your wife. So I'm gonna
walk out. Somebody else is gonna come in and you
can tell them the truth. And I walked out, and
the guys behind the one way glass that was like, Mike,
he was about to tell you go back in. I said,
y'all thought I was lying. But when I went in there,
I told you all, I didn't want to hear it.
(35:24):
I didn't want that in my head. I didn't want
it in my brain. I didn't want it in my heart.
You've got enough to put him in jail for eleven
years off admitting to the gun a year ago. He's
a feeling go get it. He'll he'll tell you.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
But I'm gone.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
And I left an in size agent that called me
down there. It's like, wow, like you broke that guy.
I says, no, you just had to show him respect.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Is there?
Speaker 5 (35:46):
Have you named your interrogation technique something I didn't?
Speaker 3 (35:51):
It's the mic effect.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Well, when the agent called me out of Norfolk and
he says, Mike, we're finn start trying to use your technique.
Because here's a problem with my technique. If you shoplift,
I'm going to be talking to you about four hours
about your life.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Nobody has time for that because.
Speaker 5 (36:07):
It's almost like a therapy aspect to it.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
It is technique.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
It is I don't want I don't care about the shoplift,
and we got your own camera. I want to know
what life went wrong? Why do you feel that you
have to do that? It's the economy, because I would
blame a lot of stuff on the economy. People cannot
afford to live in this economy, so people are going
to sell drugs because they can make great money. You
can have a one hundred thousand dollars a year job
in California.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Not make it. We'll talk.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
But in the eighties, that one hundred thousand dollars jobs,
you can buy a mansion. But now one hundred thousand
dollars job you broke. You got a couple of kids
on my wife, so now you sell drugs on the side.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
I catch you selling drugs. Why are you selling drugs? Well?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
My daughter crazy?
Speaker 4 (36:52):
No, No, why are you selling drugs? Well, my daughter
wants to do ballet. They got a trip to Disney World.
I could afford every day barely. I can't afford extra
so I thought I could do this on the side.
So I wanted to know what life went wrong? So interesting,
that's what I want to know.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
I'm so interested in interrogation, and this is a perspective
that I've never heard.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
That's what I want to know.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
Everybody was born with the same thing, with the same
when you were a baby. When you were born, you
didn't come in the world. I want to be bad.
I want to be a drug dealer. I want to
be a killer. Nobody nobody came in the world like that.
So I want to know where it work. I want
to know who loves you, Who is cound on you.
You're a navy guy, you're in trouble? Who and a guy?
One guy told me he was a drug dealer on
the side of my grandmother. She was depending on me
(37:36):
to make it. That's why I sold drugs. I had
to go back home and pretend I was big time,
because when you first come in the nighby, you don't
make no money. So he had to pretend he was
big time. Now he left home and he's making it.
His girlfriend was local, and she was one of those
drug dealer girlfriends, and she wanted a range rope and
he had to buy it for and his neighbor's salary
wasn't cutting any of that. He had to buy a house.
(37:58):
He felt like he had to do all these things right. Yeah,
and great guy he just sold drugs because of that,
he needed to make all this money.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah, he needed to make the old house.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yes, so he could, so he could show that lifestyle.
And when he could have just took the career path
and slowly but surely. You know, once you get up
in ranking the NAVE, you make decent money, you make
good money. And my thing, when I interrogated him, I
was like, I want to know where life went wrong.
I want to know who out there is depending on you.
He took a smoke break and he came back. He says,
why do you care? Because that could be me, that
(38:31):
could be my child. Man, you could you know different
than me. I'm no different than you. So I got
to figure this out. What life went wrong? So the
next guy I can teach, don't do this because of
what happened to you. You know, that guy would have
been great. He could have opened a long care business.
He could have made megabucks on the side, something legit,
you know, started a business. I could have taught you
(38:51):
that while you're in the Navy. I could have taught
you things where you can make kind of big extra money.
But here we are, So now the next guy, you
need to tell them, I need to tell them.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Wow. Yeah, pretty amazing, fascinating.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It goes to tell you that when you know, in
coming full circle to those incredible, humbling stories, just you know,
you can't teach that. You got to you got to
learn how to navigate, and you've got to make decisions
on the fly. You you're light on your feed. You know,
you're following the breadcrumbs. But but but human logic is
(39:26):
really your superpower, you know, understanding the understanding, the heartstrings,
you know, the why. You know you get to the
why then you know how right. But it's really important.
And I've seen you know, I've seen you on on set,
you know, fighting the common sense, you know, and like
we we have to make certain things make work on screen,
(39:49):
you know. And I think one of the things about
n cis that I think works really well with us
is the fact that you know, we there's still a
lot of humanity in our show. You know, our characters
are living, our breathing, our feeling. You know, we have
an opinion about the cases where they work crack And
(40:09):
I think that's what special about n c I is,
which I think is why you do so well with us,
because you you look at the humanity and what we
do interrogations, when we do, you know, witness fact check
in or whatever. You know, there's a level of humanity
that that shows into the technical side of things.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
And uh, and you know we're.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Both Freddie, we're both sticklers on set like, oh yes,
you know, if we've seen something, they're asking us subliminated
to look the other way.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
We can't.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
Then how do you then, how do you navigate through that?
When when when when someone's trying to take dramatic license
versus what you know is factual?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
How do you how do you meet in the middle?
Speaker 3 (40:50):
How do you navigate through that?
Speaker 4 (40:52):
Well, for me, that that starts two weeks before we film,
because son, that's a draft comes out. That's when I start.
And so this writer room, this writer's room believes that
I'm just quick, fast and professional. I'm forgetful. So when
I get the script, I've got to scrub it. Right then,
(41:13):
I've got to send in notes right now. I can
get that script at ten o'clock at night. I'll stay
up eight hours and my notes are the first one
to hit the writers and the show runner and they
take them into serious consideration.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
And then when I get to the office, we.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Go over and sometimes hey, Mike, no, no, we need
this for comedic and they do explain. They don't have to,
but they explain to me why they need a B
and C. But the one thing I try to do
that I learned in my first show with Scott Beckler,
you know, Lucas Black, is I have to have a
relationship with the actors, and that relationship I have to
(41:48):
ask them point blank, how do you want me to
deal with you?
Speaker 3 (41:52):
You know, do you and your character? Do you want
to do the right thing, wrong thing? You know?
Speaker 4 (41:57):
What do you want to know? Because on the day
of filming, if I can't solve it in the writer's
room and all the writers room they know this, you know,
my first show runner, the rules are kind of like,
you don't talk to the actors, you know, you only
talk to the writers. Scott Becker would always ask me
questions and I was like, so I'm not supposed to
answer this man. He's number one on the call she ep.
(42:19):
Tell him, don't ask me no questions that I won't
ask him. So that was my first induction in this
and it was like I've learned, Hey, the actors want
to know, and they want to know to real because
their face they're representing the show. So I forged that
relationship where I'm able to say to an actor, hey,
I thought to get something changed.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
Is wrong?
Speaker 4 (42:38):
Here it is now, it's in your court. And he's
a perfect example. I'll never forget. There was a writer.
He's no longer with us, but there was a writer
that in the script, Dasus were going to walk into
a room and they were going to get a faint
scent of poison, and there was an a vow under
the sofa, and that the writer had Wilma going over,
(42:58):
reaching up under the sofa, grabbing his val put it
up to his nose and sniffing and taking a good
whiff of his poison. And I'm thinking, are you out
your mind? But I couldn't get the right of the change.
I was like, look, I'm helping you. You cannot keep
this in the script. He changed everything. I says he
cannot sniff poison poison, but Mike is closed. I don't
(43:22):
care what it is. He can't even look like that.
The right of refuse to change. So now I gotta
jump the chain of command, the one thing I hate doing,
and I gotta go to the actor. I sneak whatever
I gotta do text, I gotta whisper to him, and I
got to send it in a pigeon messenger or something.
So I said it to him and he's like, okay,
I got it. He doesn't say nothing until after they rehearsed,
(43:45):
and if I remember, he's got this. They rehearsed, and
he's got this little valve in his hand. He's just
looking and the director's like you okay with him? Everything okay,
so no, no, give me a minute. And then he
just opens up.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
You remember that day of course, and forget it.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
I mean, I knew the dilemma, you know, And as
soon as we rehearsed, I all I had to do
was lift it up my face and be like, so
I'm just gonna smell it.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
So you can hear a pin drop.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
So that writer like, I mean no, at that point, once,
once he goes into Wilmer logic. I think at that
point is like they got to call a showrunner for
me to like let it go. You know, even as
the showrunner, they gotta have a really good argument, you know.
You know, I lift it up and I was like,
I'm just gonna smell it, Like, isn't this supposed to
(44:34):
be like poison?
Speaker 4 (44:35):
You?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Like I knew that it was wrong, but it's just like,
for the people at home, how do you describe that
this may or may not be the vow that we
were vowed that we were looking for, because then you
need an extra scene and where like the forensics tells you, hey,
came positive it was the poson one.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
You know, you don't have that many pages.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
So like the the quickest shortcut for a writer is
they're just like, oh, this might be what we're looking for.
But like the protocol says, put on gloves for a reason, right,
and if something looks suspect, bagg it, take it with you.
You're not trying to solve the case there, right, Like
you're not just supposed to be like, yeah, poison right, right, No,
(45:17):
put that in the back and then take it to
For instance, they got to do that job, right, yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
The writers still got what he wanted because he wanted
this sniff effect. I says, well, when they walk in,
if they start doing that and that's what sends them
to it, that's all your issue now.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
But he's not saying everything he did that day, big
ahead it.
Speaker 4 (45:36):
This is what I remember most about when he when
they when they asked him if he was okay, He
was just sitting there rehearsal's over. He looks up at
the writer and he says, are we the best investigators
in the world.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Oh? Yes, that's what he did.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I'm like, you're supposed to be the best investigative team
in the history of television. We've solved five hundred cases.
That's the team. Like this can be how we go
about that. I'm supposed to be the best investigative team
in the world.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
That was That was my opening statement.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
That was my opening statement. He was looking at the
right and the writer looks at me. I was like, Oh, yeah,
that's hand.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
That's all I had.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
That's all that guy.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
And I hate to do that because I try to
fight for things. Way before we get to the actors.
We get to the set, and nine and a half
percent of the time that does happen.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
And I got to tell you that coloration is really
important because at the end of the day, when it
goes on the screen, the writer gets to glory.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Oh absolutely right, the show gets to glory.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yes, the producers care, right, but all of us have
to really.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Be paying attention.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
We all have to care because look, I can, I
can give the writer tons of grace. You got to
write an episode one of the most watched shows and television. Yes,
and you're also handling a community, you know, the sacrifices
so much for the freedom of the United States, right,
the military.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
You want to get it right.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
But you also want to be entertaining, but you also
want to get it right right, So those little things
really really matter to me.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
And also I'm kind of like the.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Worst case scenario for a writer because I'm the global
ambassador to the USO. Right, I've traveled the planet, you know,
for twenty years, visiting our banding women of the military.
So it's like I.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Can't I just can't land somewhere. Yeah, you know what,
you picked up the point, how are you not dead?
Speaker 4 (47:40):
You're not dead? But what I love about this show
and all other shows is just the collaboration that that
they allow me because I have to learn the actors
and the writers. So when I'm when I'm deliberating with
the writers, I would tell them in the heartbeat, well
we need two or three other options, because I believe
this actor when we get there on the day, because
they know what they're doing, they're going to ask a
(48:00):
question in front of everybody, and we got to have
two solutions. I say, so you're in the ballpark. I
just don't think the actor is going to go for it.
And I never say none of them. Next thing, you know,
they do it automatically. Hey is this right?
Speaker 3 (48:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (48:12):
No, And after we go back to the writers and hey,
thank you for that, Mike. And I appreciate the writers
because they allow me to have these conversations with them, and.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
You want to have these conversations, but sometimes the math
doesn't be mathing. No, right, So it's like when you
go to tell the story on screen, it's just very
different than protocol, you know. So it's always a dance,
it's always a pool and tugue, you know. But but Mike,
I'm just so grateful man. Thank you for spending a
little time with us, Thank you for opening your stories
to us and grateful for your service and also your
(48:43):
service on that screen because because of you, we continue
to immortalize the heroes that wear the batch or wear
the uniforms.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
So thank you for your service.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
It's mylations.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Well, I'm Wilmer Valdorama, I'm Freddie Rodriez and uh, this
is does some egos if you enjoy it, and Freddie.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
Thank you. Mike Smith in the house.
Speaker 5 (49:12):
Do Amigos is a production from WV Sound and iHeartMedia's
Michael touda podcast network hosted by Me, Freddie Rodriguez, and
Wilmer Valdorama.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Those Amigos is produced by Cooper Mole and Sophie Spencer Saveles.
Speaker 5 (49:25):
Our executive producers are Wilmervalderama, Freddie Rodriguez, and Leo Klem
at WV Sound.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
This show is mixed and mastered by Sean Tracy and
original music by Madison Devinport and Hala Boy.
Speaker 5 (49:37):
For more podcasts from my Heart, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
See you next week.
Hey, everybody, This is Freddie Rodriguez.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I'm Wilmer Valderama. Welcome to those amigos today. Were
visited by someone very dear to me, Uh, someone that
I've been working with for a couple of years now.
He's been part of the the big percentage of television
that has gotten it right. Okay, I'm just gonna go
ahead and read some of your you know, some of
(00:34):
your because this is this is also a time to
give you flowers, because I think it's important that I
get publicly, uh, you know, historically record the way I
feel about you. So I'm gonna I'm gonna just I'm
gonna read a few things. Uh, just so everyone understands.
You've had twenty years of service, right uh you Your
(00:54):
rank at retirement was Master at Arms, Chief Petty Officer seven.
You entered the Navy in the nineteen eighties, initially trained
as an aviation electrician, then became law enforcement. Was not yet,
it was not yet a Navy career path, right, it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
It wasn't.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It wasn't invented. Let's see, first assignment was what is it?
A seven E jets with a tax squadron VA two
oh four in New Orleans. Right, we're going to get
back to New Orleans at some point. Transition to law enforcement,
requesting transfer to based security after being inspired by a
(01:35):
colleague on a security detail, attended Security Forces school at
Lachlan Air Force Base. And here's a few places that
you've kind of been to. Naval air Station Reserve based
New Orleans, Naval support activity in New Orleans as well,
Naval support activity Magdalena, Italy.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
So what it was.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Madelina Madelina, Madelina, Madelina, Italy so, Naval support activity Madelina,
Italy and uh NEV Constructor Battalion centered go for Mississippi
USS care Search.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
USS Harry S.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Truman Aircraft is Okay, Roles Held Commander of Police Assistant,
the Master at Arms, Security Forces, Leading Petty Officer, Command Investigator.
And there is a major list of awards that we're
going to in spare everyone because it's another page. But
(02:44):
but you know the way I know you, and let
me start by saying thank you for your service.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
The way I know you is you've been kind of that,
uh the guardian angel of honor and respect to the forces.
When it comes to entertainment, you're the guy that makes
sure that when he gets to the screen, it's.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Not too far from what he really is.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I know some showrunners pushing to look the other way,
but you and I don't look the other way, you know.
And we'll talk a little bit more about that. But
he is our military tech advisor. He is someone who's
been in advising for a very long time. Would you say,
I get what was your first project advising? Because I
remember I mejor even during NCS New Orleans, which was
(03:31):
a long time ago. It's like the first two years
when I joined the NCAIS universe, which was almost ten
years ago.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
But how do you start that I started? When?
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Did I start twenty fourteen with the NCIS New Orleans?
Speaker 5 (03:44):
And that was your absolute first Hollywood project?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
No, it was the first one.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
I can't remember, so long story short, classified, I was
still that I was still elected to do the name.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
I think it was in the nineties.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
I can't remember the actor, but he was doing a
movie where he had to be on an Indian reservation
and he was playing an FBI agent and he wanted
to know how to really handcuff fast. So my mentor,
Bob Lindsey, three years running back in the nineties was
the number one law Enforce trainer in the United States
and number three in the world.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
And he was my mentor and he trained me to
be a trainer. And he says, hey, we got this
movie start coming out. He wants me to train him
a handcuff and I need your help. So the movie
star came out and sure enough, we spent a whole
weekend with him and he wanted to know how to
just handcuff real fast in real life. So we trained
him and he did the movie and I forget the
name of the movie, but it was an FBI agent
(04:43):
and he had to go on the Indian Reservation. This
was back in the eighties, I think eighties or nineties,
and that was my first But I was a little
arrogant back then, and I think I was asked to
go on set, and I says, I'm a Navy guy.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
I'm not going on nobody Hollywood set.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Now you come to New Orleans and we'll train you
and then you can go back to Hollywood.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
But I'm not going to Hollywood. I'm a lady, right,
you know. Years later here I am welcome to Well.
I've always thoughted.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
I always said, even my first time being on the
show in NCIS New Orleans, I helped out with costumes
because of the The tech advisor was Dwayne Square. He
passed away three years into the show, but me and
him were together for fourteen years during joint cases because
I'm not I never was an NCIS agent. I was
a Navy Law Enforcement Master Arms, which is the MP
(05:37):
equivalent in the Navy Military Police equivalent. So as a
command investigator, I would work cases with NCIS jointly. So
me and him work cases fourteen years together, off and
on in different areas. And so he asked me to
help out with costumes because he was like, Mike, I
know nothing about these Navy costumes.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
So how did you go from this movie in the
eighties where you were just training somebody to do handcuffs
to to was that your sort of second foray into
into Hollywood?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Yes, it was Dwayne swear because the Mothership in side
show wanted to do a spin off in New Orleans,
but it wasn't its own show when it first came out.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
There was supposed to just be four episodes.
Speaker 4 (06:16):
Where they came down from d C and investigated some cases.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
In New Orleans? Right now? Was it?
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Four episodes? So I get a call from Dwayne Sweater retired.
They just says, Mike, they're gonna come down here Gary Glassberg,
and he's got to show him around New Orleans.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Garry Osberg was the showrunner of NCA is the most see.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I didn't know who he was.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
And it's like, look, we got to show in New Orleans,
this and that, and Dwayne was excited about it for
these four episodes.
Speaker 5 (06:44):
So were you like all these Hollywood guys again, man, like, I'm.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Not leaving by.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
I'll give you advice you ain't even got. You ain't
got to pay me because I love you, Dwyane. You
showed me the scripts. Man, I'll make you look, I'll
tell you exactly what to do because I'm not That's it.
And so he asked me to come out the first
time to come out. They were doing a major scene
in City Park, a gala, a gala that was going
to go from day to night. So now we got
(07:12):
two hundred background all in costumes. Can you come help costumes?
Like yeah, but they gotta pay me for that if
I got to show up. So I went out there
didn't have to be there until two o'clock on a Friday,
so I said, it's great, I don't have to get
up early.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I lived in Mississippi. Let me drive over to New
Orleans and I'm helping.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
But what I love about the show business is that
I went in my real uniform and everybody there looked
at me. Nobody had met me before, and they said,
that's a real uniform.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
So how do they know it?
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Because everybody looks like there's a whole bunch of military
navy uniforms. How can they know Minds is real? All
the background knew the regulars they won, and it's supposed
to be a twelve hour day, so I said, we'll
finish about one o'clock in the morning. The only reason
they stopped filming Saturday morning was because the sun came up.
(07:59):
And I said, I ever coming back. That was my
I said, y'all are crazy.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Here.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah, don't ever call me back. I might.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
No, it's not usually like this, man, It's great, No,
it's not. I'm never coming back. So that was my
first day on a set and I said I'm never
coming back, And twelve years later, I keep coming back.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Let's throw it back to when you were a young
man and you said, I want to serve my country.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
You know what was that moment? Like, where did that
come from?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Where were you born?
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I was born in Panama City, Florida, attended Bay High School.
I've always loved serving people, helping people. I just you know,
I wasn't a boy scout, but I actually liked one.
I just if a little older lady needed help, if
somebody needed help, if you got picked on in my
high school, I would tell everybody, don't pick on this person,
(08:50):
because we shouldn't be picking on people. I just felt
like I wanted to serve. And then I said, I
either want to go in the military or law enforcement.
So I became a member of the Police Athletic League
as a teenager, and I would box and the local
cops and the detectives taught us how to box. We
would go to little competitions and they had this one
detective in my neighborhood. His uh, his name was I
(09:13):
want to say, Mike Jones. That's funny because you got
the rapper Mike Jones. His name, his name was Mike Yeah,
and he was notorious for for having his own style
of police work, kind of what you would see on
TV with Hill Street Blues.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
His own style.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
He had his own style style. But if you ran
from Mike Jones, he would run up next to you.
He would drive up next to you and open the
car door to knock you down. He was old school eighties,
but he had the respect of the community. You know,
you you knew, don't mess with him, and he got
the job done. And I kind of looked up to that.
(09:52):
I said, well, I don't want to be that because
he's kind of nasty, but I do want to, you know,
serve and protect the community, either with military law enforcement.
I I was in a Junior ROTC Air Force JROTC,
and and I didn't like the Air Force because everybody
was perfect. I would get in trouble from time to time.
So I knew once I left my parents' house at
(10:13):
eighteen and went in the military, that trouble would find
me and I would find trouble. So based on that,
I said, I can't go into Air Force because they
will kick you out if you get in trouble the
first time. So I talked to the neighbor recruiter and
he says, well, you can mess up about three or
four times before we kick you out. We expect you
to get in there, have fun, you know, get it
out your system, and then get serious about the Navy.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
And I was like, that's psal.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
That was how many times could I get in?
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I will get in trouble.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
I only need to find trouble trying to have a
good time, or trouble will find me. We always meet
up when I was a teenager, and me in trouble
would get along have fun, and trouble would leave me
in trouble, and trouble would go away. So I had
to go to a military branch of the military that
understood even now, trouble, nothing big, just trouble that maybe
(11:04):
it was perfect. As a matter of fact. When I
got in, I found out my goal was to make chief.
I just wanted to be a chief because all these
chiefs I had talked to, most of them had been
in some trouble early in life and that made them a.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Better chief when they grew.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
So their model was, we don't trust you if you
hadn't got in a little trouble. If I go on
a mission with you and things go wrong, I want
to know that you don't have to pull out destructure
man on how to do this combat mission that you
can just move and adapt to the trouble that you're facing.
You wasn't briefed on A, B and C. Now you're
facing D, E and F. Can you keep going right?
(11:42):
So that's what trouble taught.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Can you have the versatility to think about instinctly how
to actually create a path and real.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Exactly when you're facing trouble in the feeling and Plus,
trouble allowed for growth because I really found out where
when you get in trouble because on acurage and commitment
is the core value of the Navy's so courage. So
when you get in trouble on your personal life, can
you come back to work and tell your supervisor the
truth without giving your supervisor a pretty lie? If you
(12:10):
can do that when you get in trouble personally, when
you do something wrong with the military, they trust you
to come back and have the courage to tell them, hey,
I'm messed up so that we all can come together
and fix it. But if you try to cover it
up and lie and come back with a pretty lie,
well that happened.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Somebody else must have did it. I don't know what
went wrong.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Then you don't get a military a chance to fix it.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Very important, very important.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
That's really interesting how you chose where you belonged in
the military, right. It's it's like when you're in school,
like there are some kids that are more academically inclined, right,
there are some kids that are more sports inclined, right,
or arts inclined. And that's sort of how you find
find your tribe.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You know.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
And that's I've never heard it broke down this way,
and that's how you you found the Navy.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That's really interesting.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
And I absolutely love the Navy even from the start
because the Navy person that we look at ourselves as
the jack of all trades and the master of nothing.
So in the Navy, you can do things like cross
weight rate. You can try to get your surface warfare
air warfare pen. That means, example, on the ship, if
(13:21):
there's three thousand people on the ship and we lost
seventy five percent of the people, as long as those
other twenty five a surface war train, they can run
that ship and fight the trip like this's three thousand people.
So the Navy operated with small numbers and would do
the same thing. I give you an example as an
air force squadron of planes. The Navy may come with
(13:43):
two thirds less planes, two thirds less manpower, but we
can do the same mission as a fully manned air
for shit. And we would go to competitions and they
would look at us and be like, where's the rest
of your crew?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
This is it?
Speaker 4 (13:56):
You all are gonna Well, yeah, you all are working
eight hours a day and going home. We're working eighteen
hours a day, going and partying and coming back to work.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Right, that's the count.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Right, So that was a neighbor. We'll go all day long, every.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
Day and operate at full capacity until the mission's over.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
So if so, if the Air Force you had to
be perfect, the Navy you you fit? Why not the
Marines or the Army.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Oh I just knew that wasn't a fifth for me.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
I was not that boots on the grounds, comeback type soldier. However,
I always inspired to be boots on the ground in
the concrete jungle. And we consider the concrete jungle the
United States military basis, because every day there's a war
out there for military law enforcement to fight. Every day,
somebody's trying to impact our communities, impact our soldiers while
(14:47):
they're home during r and r the soldiers are facing trouble,
the Navy sailors are facing trouble and dependent. So we're
that military force, that law enforcement force that operates in
the concrete jungle, which is the street cent the United States.
So they operate boots on the ground, in the desert,
in the jungles overseas, But who protects them when they're
(15:07):
at home? And just like what you're saying in the
news Now, I stay away from politics, but last week
I believe or the Secretary of Defense approved for military
commanders to authorize military person and to carry their personal
weapons on a military basis. We had fought for that
forever because we were like when we deploy, we get
(15:31):
guns issued, and we carry guns all day long overseas,
but when we come back home, it was fully restricted
for anybody to have a personal weapon on a military base.
But for the first time, that's been changed. So when
you come back home, you can protect yourself. Because what
has happened in the past is that's say Navy ship
goes over and gets into a war and or conflict
(15:51):
and does some bombings or whatever, and they come back
to the United States.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
This happened years ago.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
You can google it, but there was one captain he
got assassinated. I think his vehicle was blown up with
his family in it because he kept in that ship
on that mission. So the terrorists following him back to
his homeland in the United States, where we're a soft target,
they tracked him down. I think they killed him and
his family.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
You know the well may or may not get into
this too, but the creation of the react units were
a very similar situation. You know that we're an equipped
to defend themselves in the base, and then there was
an active shooter and and he created quite a mess.
So they realized, oh man, we really have to have
a response team here at home too, you know. Yeah,
(16:45):
So going to the beginnings of you know, I was
an investigator too. What was that first case you got
called and you were like, we got a situation.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Mike, Do I even remember?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Okay, so or a case that you remembered that you
were like, oh, okay, this is what I'm built to do.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Well, I can give you a situation without going into
a case right now. But I've always dreamed to be
an investigator once. I because when you first came in
the Navy in the eighties, like I did. You couldn't
go straight into law enforcement. You had to have a
few years under your belt in the Navy and then
you could apply for law enforce because they wanted you
to understand the essence of the Navy. They wanted you
to understand Navy life before you started doing law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
So I went through that. I was in aviation.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
I learned a lot in aviation, learned how the Navy worked,
and I came to act to do the Navy, and
I became a Master at Arms. So back then I
didn't understand the spirit of the law. I thought it
was a letter of the law. So one of my
first nicknames that I had over the years was a RoboCop.
(17:58):
RoboCop was one of my first nicknames because when I
was on patrol, if the rule book said.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
This and you violated that, that's that period. There was
no gray area. There was no spirit of the law.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
So I'm glad over the years I was taught the
spirit of the law. Because my second nickname was ticketmaster.
If you were I would set on, I would just
post up, and if you were five miles old the
speed limit, you were getting pulled old. I didn't want
to hear anything and you were giving a ticket. I
have one funny situation when I was ticketmaster. It was
(18:32):
on a Saturday and I was on a joint base
where you had a joint services and an Air Force
nurse was speeding in housing about thirty or fifteen, and
I was particularly about the housing area. You don't want
to hit a kid, So I pulled the old on
a Saturday morning. You know, she thought she was very attractive,
(18:53):
and she thought she shouldn't get a ticket just because
of the way she looked, and I didn't want to
hear any of it. I stroked her ticket and said
he an nice day. Later that day, I get know
that Monday, I get a call from the Chief of
police on the basis, since I need you in my office.
I worked eating the shift, so Monday morning I got
to come to his office and stand tall. Yes, see
what's going on. She was in the office setting in
(19:13):
his chair, and he says, we got a problem. This
young lady sit here, said you did a traffic stop
on and you asked her for her phone number, and
I said, well, let me get my ticket book because
I don't I wrote. So I would write forty fifty
tickets a day when I was a ticketmaster.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
So you had a record.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
Oh yeah, So anyway, I go back through my ticket,
but okay, chief, Yeah, yeah, I did ask her. For
a matter of fact, I asked for her home number
and cell phone. I'm I sure did he said, you did? Yeah,
see him on the ticket. There's a block for cell
phone number, there's a block for work and home number.
And I asked her for all three of those.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Because most people are just living blank. They're like, here,
you go pay the ticket.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Oh she tried this sort of making you were trying
to yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
And I was like, just like I asked everybody. Yeah.
He looked at me, dismissed. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
So your thoroughness got you called into the office.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
Uh fast forward, uh fast forward a month later. Uh
uh me and this young lady was on a lunch date.
Oh man, true story, true story, true story. She came
in the office on a drill weekend. Is hey, I apologize,
you know, She says, I was flirting with you. You didn't
(20:33):
flirt back, you were just stiff. And she says she's
never gotten a ticket from a mail officer. She's always
gotten out of it.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
And I was the first one that toxic relationship.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
That she couldn't shake.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
So yeah, so that was one of my first, uh,
you know, situations. But fast forward, I became a patrol supervisor.
One situation down, and I'm not going to name the base.
We had a runway abandoning the runway and there was
six sticks of dynamite all wrapped up nice and neat
(21:10):
on a Sunday, and some children in the housing the
found it. They called it in and I sent one
of them. I sent my youngest and single patrolman out
to go look at it. So you go take a
look at it. Because in the military we do things
a certain way, and it was like, so if something
goes wrong, we wanted to go wrong with this person.
(21:30):
He understood the assignment, so he went out, came back,
and he says, yes, there, so okay, we're gonna post up,
We're gonna follow the procedures. So I'm trying to follow
a procedure. And the surveyor in charge of our department
at the time, he got the call and he came out,
you know, he's like, Hey, where's this thing at I
want to go look at it, sir, you can't go
(21:50):
look at it.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
It's cordon off were waiting on EOD you know, disclosers.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Bomb unit. We're going by the book. The base commanders
are where. He says, Now, there's no way. There's six
sticks of dynamite that I want to go look at it.
I said, but he's my boss on a day to day.
But once an incident comes happens, it's called an incident
command structure that takes an effect. So I have positional authority.
(22:16):
So you can't. I said, you could lead an office,
but you can't go out there.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
He goes.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
Anyway, I get a call from the patrol and I said, look,
let him do whatever he's going to do, and if
he does something crazy, stay away from him. And he
did something crazy. He looked at it and said he
don't think it's real. I mean six sticks of dynamite
with a timer on it. And he says he doesn't
think it's real. And guess what he does. He picks
it up and he says it's not real. So all
(22:42):
the one of my guys that was at the gate
leading away from that place, don't let him leave because
in that timer it could be fake dynamite. But in
that time it could be some seafoor. I just don't
play with these things. So sure enough they wouldn't let
him leave. He was upset. FBI, all the three alphabet
people came out. They agreed bomb squadified and make it.
(23:03):
They cording him off, you know, around his vehicle, his
truck went through the process. And what happened is the
ad National Guard unit they were training out that weekend
and they were doing some explosives training and.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
They left that out there.
Speaker 4 (23:15):
But everybody applauded the procedures because that's what you're supposed
to do.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
And my boss kind of got in trouble.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
So that was that was the first kind of like
you know, it was no, no, it was fake.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It was a decoy, but it was part of the
training now right.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
But the EOD said you should have never moved it
because you put fake dynamite sticks there and then inside
the case where the time it was What if some
C four would have been in there and the person
was waiting for you to bring it inside of a
building to clack clack and explode it. So that that
is a story of me falling the rules.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
No gray area.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
You know, I know my positional authority. You know, I
don't care if you're my boss, not you're not my boss.
When an incident is a current, I'm the boss when
it's an incident.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
With that effect your relationship with him, Oh.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Give me twenty absolute.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Well, he was an overall boss, the officer in charge,
but under him was the chief of police, and the
chief police is smith. He did the right thing, he says,
but you gotta watch it. You gotta watch a step.
And now I could have boss if you if you sneeze,
you're in trouble. If anybody else sneeze, is there, okay?
And I said, I'll with that badge of honor, I'm
that person.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
It was a challenge, but he had to be careful
on how he moved because it looked obvious if he
went against me.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
What one case scenario.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
When I was in the military about eight years, I
was a master law Enforcement trainer in the Federal rem
and the Civilian RAM because of my mentor Bob Lindsey,
the one that helped me with the handcuffing. So I
would get calls from everywhere to go do training. And
I got a call to go down for to train
the federalities in Mexico City, Mexico. So I took leave.
(24:57):
I took vacation, and my boss pulls me in off.
He says, why are you going to Mexico City, Mexico.
So that's personal, he says, tell me, or I would
disapprove your lead paper.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
So I tell him.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
He says, put your badge and everything on the table,
all your credentials. You will not take them with you.
Nobody else has ever told. I said, okay, fine, funny story.
So when I get down to Mexico City, Mexico, and
I start training with the federality, it's true story.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
I won't mention any name.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
So the colonel in charge of the whole program man,
he says, hey, Mike, show me show your guys, your guys,
your badges, and your credentials for the Navy. So what
I don't happen? He says, why not? And I tell
him the story. It's funny. Now, wasn't it funny about it?
He says, you tell your boss, you send him a
message for me. Tell him his is to never come
(25:42):
down there. If he ever comes down here, he'll never leave.
And uh, this guy takes me to his headquarters building.
Now I'm nervous. He one day he takes me to
his headquarters building. I'm thinking I'm finna be arrested because
he tells his guys take a picture of him, put
them up against the wall. And I'm like, wait a minute, y'all,
are you all trying to keep me? Take me hustage?
And before I left, he gave me their credentials and
(26:04):
their badge. He says, you tell your boss your federality.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Now you're one of us.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
You're one of us. True story.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So with what all of these experiences and you know,
you know, you how do you look at all the
elements of all these cases and all the things you've answered,
and all the operations that you've been a part of,
and how do you filter that in your experience when
it comes to take advice and on shows?
Speaker 3 (26:42):
You know?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
And what's the biggest challenge when that you see when
you're when you're trying to technically advice you know, a production.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
What what what I learned in the Navy, and it
transcends to the the film industry, is that once I
became a chief. When you make chief in the Navy,
it's a big deal. You go through this big initiation
training process and it's just you have to learn about
all military branches, all ranks, and they just put you
through the ringer for months because you're the expert.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
In the Navy.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
If a chief walks in and somebody has a question,
they're going to turn and say, well, ask the chief,
and that chief will find out if I don't know
that you can ask me about banana pudding. I'm gonna
call a chief that's a chef, and he's going to
tell me about banana pudding. I'm gonna come back to
you and tell you about banana pudding. It doesn't make
a difference. So what I learned in the Navy is
but first of all, once I my rank, I got
(27:38):
to a high enough rank of master on his first class,
I was able to apply for a command investigator and
go to the investigator school, which military investigators in the
Navy are trained by the Army. That Fort Leonarwood, Missouri
is the military police investigator school. You do everything an
agent does, except for you don't do cases with a
dead body. And I learned that from and see I
(28:00):
asked because I had to work dead bodies with them.
Once I came back, it was kind of an OJT.
The one thing I didn't appreciate was the interviewing interrogation
technique that we were taught. It's called the read technique
of interviewing interrogation. It's good cop, bad cop, the stuff
you see on TV. And as I tried to use it,
I noticed that the criminals during that era and even today,
(28:24):
they can sniff out a lie. Most humans can sniff
out a lie. So when you try to play good
cop bad cop, those people will get caught up in
that and get called out by the bad guy. So
now you've lost the bad guy because you disrespect the
bad guy.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
You know they you lied to them. You know.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
One of the biggest lies that you're taught with that
type of technique is I may walk in if you're
the suspect, and I may say, you know what, you
tell me the truth, I will not arrest you. And
me and Wilma are the cops. And you look at
me and say you want arrest me. No, I promise you,
I want to arrest you if you tell me the truth.
So you tell me the truth, and I look at Wilmer,
I said, you're arresting Yeah, right to.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Me, that's dirty.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
You know when I walk in the room, I look
a here, this is who I am. I want to
help you. Oh, you're going to jail. So I'm gonna
tell you're going to jail. But can I help you
get less time when you get out? Can I help
you get a job in a career, because.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Some things are inevitable.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, if you did, you're.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Going to jail.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
But my thing is where did life go wrong? So
my interviews will be so long because I want to
go back and figure out where life went wrong, because
any of us life can go wrong. I would tell
every suspect that I interviewed that was in a bad situation.
I said, there's nothing separating me and you let the
wrong thing go wrong. Let somebody attack one of my daughters.
I'm in that seat. There is no I apologies, No,
(29:46):
I'm coming after you, and I'm gonna be having my
rights read to me if you put your hands on
my daughter point blank. And I would tell them that.
They look at me like for real, say yeah, I
can't touch my daughters. I'm not a cop. That I'm dad,
and so I can with my own style of interrogation
and believe it or not. Last year I got a
call from NCA. I said and said, they're going to
(30:07):
start using my technique. Once I found out what life
wren wrong, then we would talk about what happened. And
I've learned through that technique to not tell the suspect
I believe you did it. You know most cauts, we
know you did it. No, no, no. I would go
in and be like, what if the person that got hurt,
(30:29):
how did they attribute to their own.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Pain?
Speaker 4 (30:33):
The other words, did they because believe it or not,
ninety percent of the people that get hurt by another
person had something to do with getting themselves hurt. You know,
like if I tell if a bad guy says, stop
messing with my wife and you don't you mess with
his wife again and he hurts you, you were waring?
Why did you keep you know, like, don't push me,
and you push me and I hurt you. Now you're
(30:54):
calling the police. So and usually when I'm talking to
a suspect, they would gladly tell me what that person
did to get themselves hurt. And if they could tell
me every detail of what that person did to get
themselves hurt, that means you're the person that hurt them.
So we're not talking about you hurting them, We're talking
about what they did to get hurt. And that's the
way I went into interviews and interrogations, and I would
(31:16):
let them know straight up, Hey, if you had a
lawyer in here, they would tell you, don't talk to me.
Your best advice is not to talk to me because
I'm going to break you. I break ninety percent of
the people I interrogate. But I'm also the guy that's
going to kind of help you. See what's the best
best path to go down to get you to the less
amount of punishment Because you didn't put yourself in that chair.
Somebody helped put you in that chair. If that was
(31:37):
the case. Now, if it wasn't the case and you
were just an evil guy, I would tell you, you know,
my worst.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Case was an evil guy.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
And if you don't mind me sharing this, So there
was I got a call from NCIS because some agents
had seen my interrogation technique and NCIS agency are held
to a specific standard and they don't go outside the standard.
(32:05):
I was a military investigator, so I could float into
in this gray area. So I got a call to
go to meet them at a police agency. And I'm
not even gonna say the state. They had been interrogating
this guy with the local police for about six hours.
He was believed to have killed his navy wife. So
they called me down and one of an agents said, hey, Mike,
(32:26):
can you break this guy. Y'all can break them. Y'all
had him hollow six hours. Okay, he's pissed off. He's
a career criminal. He had previously been arrested and in
jail for years for killing one of his girlfriends lovers
and an attempted to kill his girlfriend, and his Navy
wife met him in prison when she was visiting her
(32:47):
son who was in prison. So I go down to
the to interrogate him, and I said, look, y'all already
messed this up. In my opinion, it's going to be hard.
I'm going to break him, but I'm not going to
have him tell me what he did to his wife,
because I knew his wife. She was a great woman,
a military PEDI alsher just great person, and I don't
want to hear it because it's gonna break my heart emotion.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
I said, Okay, okay, Mike. They didn't believe me.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
So I go in and I'm interrogating this guy, and
I'll tell him say, look, whatever they told you, don't
listen to me.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
He was pissed off of them.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
They played the good cop, bad cop, and I says,
don't repeat nothing you said to them.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Here's the deal. I know who killed your wife.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
He says, you do. You need to get out there
and get him. I said, no, let's talk about I
know who killed your wife. And he says, who killed
my wife? I said, the Navy killed your wife. He says,
the Navy killed my wife. I said, yeah, last year,
all this time, whenever the Navy calls your wife one
o'clock in the morning to it, she gets up and
she leaves. Now, you've been incarcerated for years and the
only thing you know is respect, and that's disrespectful to you.
(33:49):
You wake up at two o'clock in the morning ask
your wife to go to the store. She's going to
be like, you're crazy. To go back to sleep. So
your wife has more safe The Navy has more safe
so over your wife than you do. That's disrespect I
asked here. When those guys brought your wife home in
the middle of the night because she was late coming
from work, you pulled a piscil out on them, and
you lied about it because you're on probation and you
(34:09):
would go back to jail for eleven years. I said,
don't admit to that, not yet, because if they hear you,
they're listening, you'll be admitting to a crime and you'll
have to go back to jail. So later on in
the conversation, I was like, show me some respect and
tell me the truth about that gun you pulled on
knowing that you'll go back to jail. He said, you
dog gonna ride out there, he said, I showed. I said,
thank you for that. Now we respecting each other. I said,
(34:31):
Now let's get to who killed your wife. I said,
remember it was a navy and she had a part
in that whole being killed herself. And he says, what
do you mean. I said, in that bedroom, y'all got
into an argument. She pulled a gun on you because
that's what the Navy taught her. How dare she pulled
a gun on you. That's disrespectful. So you took the
gun and you shot her, simple as that. So he
(34:54):
looked at me, he says, you know what you right?
I said, hold on, I don't want to hear. I said,
don't tell me nothing, because I had love.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
For your wife.
Speaker 4 (35:03):
Man, your wife was a super great woman, a great
I don't want to hear about what happened in that bedroom.
I know the Navy killed your wife. So I'm gonna
walk out. Somebody else is gonna come in and you
can tell them the truth. And I walked out, and
the guys behind the one way glass that was like, Mike,
he was about to tell you go back in. I said,
y'all thought I was lying. But when I went in there,
I told you all, I didn't want to hear it.
(35:24):
I didn't want that in my head. I didn't want
it in my brain. I didn't want it in my heart.
You've got enough to put him in jail for eleven
years off admitting to the gun a year ago. He's
a feeling go get it. He'll he'll tell you.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
But I'm gone.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
And I left an in size agent that called me
down there. It's like, wow, like you broke that guy.
I says, no, you just had to show him respect.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Is there?
Speaker 5 (35:46):
Have you named your interrogation technique something I didn't?
Speaker 3 (35:51):
It's the mic effect.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Well, when the agent called me out of Norfolk and
he says, Mike, we're finn start trying to use your technique.
Because here's a problem with my technique. If you shoplift,
I'm going to be talking to you about four hours
about your life.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Nobody has time for that because.
Speaker 5 (36:07):
It's almost like a therapy aspect to it.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
It is technique.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
It is I don't want I don't care about the shoplift,
and we got your own camera. I want to know
what life went wrong? Why do you feel that you
have to do that? It's the economy, because I would
blame a lot of stuff on the economy. People cannot
afford to live in this economy, so people are going
to sell drugs because they can make great money. You
can have a one hundred thousand dollars a year job
in California.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Not make it. We'll talk.
Speaker 4 (36:34):
But in the eighties, that one hundred thousand dollars jobs,
you can buy a mansion. But now one hundred thousand
dollars job you broke. You got a couple of kids
on my wife, so now you sell drugs on the side.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
I catch you selling drugs. Why are you selling drugs? Well?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
My daughter crazy?
Speaker 4 (36:52):
No, No, why are you selling drugs? Well, my daughter
wants to do ballet. They got a trip to Disney World.
I could afford every day barely. I can't afford extra
so I thought I could do this on the side.
So I wanted to know what life went wrong? So interesting,
that's what I want to know.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
I'm so interested in interrogation, and this is a perspective
that I've never heard.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
That's what I want to know.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
Everybody was born with the same thing, with the same
when you were a baby. When you were born, you
didn't come in the world. I want to be bad.
I want to be a drug dealer. I want to
be a killer. Nobody nobody came in the world like that.
So I want to know where it work. I want
to know who loves you, Who is cound on you.
You're a navy guy, you're in trouble? Who and a guy?
One guy told me he was a drug dealer on
the side of my grandmother. She was depending on me
(37:36):
to make it. That's why I sold drugs. I had
to go back home and pretend I was big time,
because when you first come in the nighby, you don't
make no money. So he had to pretend he was
big time. Now he left home and he's making it.
His girlfriend was local, and she was one of those
drug dealer girlfriends, and she wanted a range rope and
he had to buy it for and his neighbor's salary
wasn't cutting any of that. He had to buy a house.
(37:58):
He felt like he had to do all these things right. Yeah,
and great guy he just sold drugs because of that,
he needed to make all this money.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yeah, he needed to make the old house.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yes, so he could, so he could show that lifestyle.
And when he could have just took the career path
and slowly but surely. You know, once you get up
in ranking the NAVE, you make decent money, you make
good money. And my thing, when I interrogated him, I
was like, I want to know where life went wrong.
I want to know who out there is depending on you.
He took a smoke break and he came back. He says,
why do you care? Because that could be me, that
(38:31):
could be my child. Man, you could you know different
than me. I'm no different than you. So I got
to figure this out. What life went wrong? So the
next guy I can teach, don't do this because of
what happened to you. You know, that guy would have
been great. He could have opened a long care business.
He could have made megabucks on the side, something legit,
you know, started a business. I could have taught you
(38:51):
that while you're in the Navy. I could have taught
you things where you can make kind of big extra money.
But here we are, So now the next guy, you
need to tell them, I need to tell them.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Wow. Yeah, pretty amazing, fascinating.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It goes to tell you that when you know, in
coming full circle to those incredible, humbling stories, just you know,
you can't teach that. You got to you got to
learn how to navigate, and you've got to make decisions
on the fly. You you're light on your feed. You know,
you're following the breadcrumbs. But but but human logic is
(39:26):
really your superpower, you know, understanding the understanding, the heartstrings,
you know, the why. You know you get to the
why then you know how right. But it's really important.
And I've seen you know, I've seen you on on set,
you know, fighting the common sense, you know, and like
we we have to make certain things make work on screen,
(39:49):
you know. And I think one of the things about
n cis that I think works really well with us
is the fact that you know, we there's still a
lot of humanity in our show. You know, our characters
are living, our breathing, our feeling. You know, we have
an opinion about the cases where they work crack And
(40:09):
I think that's what special about n c I is,
which I think is why you do so well with us,
because you you look at the humanity and what we
do interrogations, when we do, you know, witness fact check
in or whatever. You know, there's a level of humanity
that that shows into the technical side of things.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
And uh, and you know we're.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Both Freddie, we're both sticklers on set like, oh yes,
you know, if we've seen something, they're asking us subliminated
to look the other way.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
We can't.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
Then how do you then, how do you navigate through that?
When when when when someone's trying to take dramatic license
versus what you know is factual?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
How do you how do you meet in the middle?
Speaker 3 (40:50):
How do you navigate through that?
Speaker 4 (40:52):
Well, for me, that that starts two weeks before we film,
because son, that's a draft comes out. That's when I start.
And so this writer room, this writer's room believes that
I'm just quick, fast and professional. I'm forgetful. So when
I get the script, I've got to scrub it. Right then,
(41:13):
I've got to send in notes right now. I can
get that script at ten o'clock at night. I'll stay
up eight hours and my notes are the first one
to hit the writers and the show runner and they
take them into serious consideration.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
And then when I get to the office, we.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Go over and sometimes hey, Mike, no, no, we need
this for comedic and they do explain. They don't have to,
but they explain to me why they need a B
and C. But the one thing I try to do
that I learned in my first show with Scott Beckler,
you know, Lucas Black, is I have to have a
relationship with the actors, and that relationship I have to
(41:48):
ask them point blank, how do you want me to
deal with you?
Speaker 3 (41:52):
You know, do you and your character? Do you want
to do the right thing, wrong thing? You know?
Speaker 4 (41:57):
What do you want to know? Because on the day
of filming, if I can't solve it in the writer's
room and all the writers room they know this, you know,
my first show runner, the rules are kind of like,
you don't talk to the actors, you know, you only
talk to the writers. Scott Becker would always ask me
questions and I was like, so I'm not supposed to
answer this man. He's number one on the call she ep.
(42:19):
Tell him, don't ask me no questions that I won't
ask him. So that was my first induction in this
and it was like I've learned, Hey, the actors want
to know, and they want to know to real because
their face they're representing the show. So I forged that
relationship where I'm able to say to an actor, hey,
I thought to get something changed.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
Is wrong?
Speaker 4 (42:38):
Here it is now, it's in your court. And he's
a perfect example. I'll never forget. There was a writer.
He's no longer with us, but there was a writer
that in the script, Dasus were going to walk into
a room and they were going to get a faint
scent of poison, and there was an a vow under
the sofa, and that the writer had Wilma going over,
(42:58):
reaching up under the sofa, grabbing his val put it
up to his nose and sniffing and taking a good
whiff of his poison. And I'm thinking, are you out
your mind? But I couldn't get the right of the change.
I was like, look, I'm helping you. You cannot keep
this in the script. He changed everything. I says he
cannot sniff poison poison, but Mike is closed. I don't
(43:22):
care what it is. He can't even look like that.
The right of refuse to change. So now I gotta
jump the chain of command, the one thing I hate doing,
and I gotta go to the actor. I sneak whatever
I gotta do text, I gotta whisper to him, and I
got to send it in a pigeon messenger or something.
So I said it to him and he's like, okay,
I got it. He doesn't say nothing until after they rehearsed,
(43:45):
and if I remember, he's got this. They rehearsed, and
he's got this little valve in his hand. He's just
looking and the director's like you okay with him? Everything okay,
so no, no, give me a minute. And then he
just opens up.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
You remember that day of course, and forget it.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
I mean, I knew the dilemma, you know, And as
soon as we rehearsed, I all I had to do
was lift it up my face and be like, so
I'm just gonna smell it.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
So you can hear a pin drop.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
So that writer like, I mean no, at that point, once,
once he goes into Wilmer logic. I think at that
point is like they got to call a showrunner for
me to like let it go. You know, even as
the showrunner, they gotta have a really good argument, you know.
You know, I lift it up and I was like,
I'm just gonna smell it, Like, isn't this supposed to
(44:34):
be like poison?
Speaker 4 (44:35):
You?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Like I knew that it was wrong, but it's just like,
for the people at home, how do you describe that
this may or may not be the vow that we
were vowed that we were looking for, because then you
need an extra scene and where like the forensics tells you, hey,
came positive it was the poson one.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
You know, you don't have that many pages.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
So like the the quickest shortcut for a writer is
they're just like, oh, this might be what we're looking for.
But like the protocol says, put on gloves for a reason, right,
and if something looks suspect, bagg it, take it with you.
You're not trying to solve the case there, right, Like
you're not just supposed to be like, yeah, poison right, right, No,
(45:17):
put that in the back and then take it to
For instance, they got to do that job, right, yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
The writers still got what he wanted because he wanted
this sniff effect. I says, well, when they walk in,
if they start doing that and that's what sends them
to it, that's all your issue now.
Speaker 3 (45:32):
But he's not saying everything he did that day, big
ahead it.
Speaker 4 (45:36):
This is what I remember most about when he when
they when they asked him if he was okay, He
was just sitting there rehearsal's over. He looks up at
the writer and he says, are we the best investigators
in the world.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Oh? Yes, that's what he did.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I'm like, you're supposed to be the best investigative team
in the history of television. We've solved five hundred cases.
That's the team. Like this can be how we go
about that. I'm supposed to be the best investigative team
in the world.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
That was That was my opening statement.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
That was my opening statement. He was looking at the
right and the writer looks at me. I was like, Oh, yeah,
that's hand.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
That's all I had.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
That's all that guy.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
And I hate to do that because I try to
fight for things. Way before we get to the actors.
We get to the set, and nine and a half
percent of the time that does happen.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
And I got to tell you that coloration is really
important because at the end of the day, when it
goes on the screen, the writer gets to glory.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Oh absolutely right, the show gets to glory.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yes, the producers care, right, but all of us have
to really.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
Be paying attention.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
We all have to care because look, I can, I
can give the writer tons of grace. You got to
write an episode one of the most watched shows and television. Yes,
and you're also handling a community, you know, the sacrifices
so much for the freedom of the United States, right,
the military.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
You want to get it right.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
But you also want to be entertaining, but you also
want to get it right right, So those little things
really really matter to me.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
And also I'm kind of like the.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Worst case scenario for a writer because I'm the global
ambassador to the USO. Right, I've traveled the planet, you know,
for twenty years, visiting our banding women of the military.
So it's like I.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Can't I just can't land somewhere. Yeah, you know what,
you picked up the point, how are you not dead?
Speaker 4 (47:40):
You're not dead? But what I love about this show
and all other shows is just the collaboration that that
they allow me because I have to learn the actors
and the writers. So when I'm when I'm deliberating with
the writers, I would tell them in the heartbeat, well
we need two or three other options, because I believe
this actor when we get there on the day, because
they know what they're doing, they're going to ask a
(48:00):
question in front of everybody, and we got to have
two solutions. I say, so you're in the ballpark. I
just don't think the actor is going to go for it.
And I never say none of them. Next thing, you know,
they do it automatically. Hey is this right?
Speaker 3 (48:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (48:12):
No, And after we go back to the writers and hey,
thank you for that, Mike. And I appreciate the writers
because they allow me to have these conversations with them, and.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
You want to have these conversations, but sometimes the math
doesn't be mathing. No, right, So it's like when you
go to tell the story on screen, it's just very
different than protocol, you know. So it's always a dance,
it's always a pool and tugue, you know. But but Mike,
I'm just so grateful man. Thank you for spending a
little time with us, Thank you for opening your stories
to us and grateful for your service and also your
(48:43):
service on that screen because because of you, we continue
to immortalize the heroes that wear the batch or wear
the uniforms.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
So thank you for your service.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
It's mylations.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Well, I'm Wilmer Valdorama, I'm Freddie Rodriez and uh, this
is does some egos if you enjoy it, and Freddie.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
Thank you. Mike Smith in the house.
Speaker 5 (49:12):
Do Amigos is a production from WV Sound and iHeartMedia's
Michael touda podcast network hosted by Me, Freddie Rodriguez, and
Wilmer Valdorama.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Those Amigos is produced by Cooper Mole and Sophie Spencer Saveles.
Speaker 5 (49:25):
Our executive producers are Wilmervalderama, Freddie Rodriguez, and Leo Klem
at WV Sound.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
This show is mixed and mastered by Sean Tracy and
original music by Madison Devinport and Hala Boy.
Speaker 5 (49:37):
For more podcasts from my Heart, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
See you next week.
Hosts And Creators
Wilmer Valderrama
Freddy Rodriguez
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