December 1, 2025 • 45 mins
As a 22-year-old White House intern, Monica Lewinsky engaged in an intimate relationship with the most powerful man in the world. Two years later, she became the center of a national frenzy, political scandal and unprecedented public shaming.
Behind the headlines, there is more truth to Monica's story, and it's her turn to reclaim the narrative.
In Part 1 of this 2-part conversation, Monica reflects candidly about the dreams she once had for her future and the choices that changed everything.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,
welcome back to Work in Progress. This week we have
a guest who has been a sensation in the news
(00:22):
since the nineties, who lots of people think they know,
lots of people have opinions about, and I think in
recent years a lot of us are having to self
interrogate where those opinions come from and maybe just maybe
ask her who she is. Today we're joined by Monica Lewinsky.
(00:42):
She went to Washington at twenty two years old thinking
that she was chasing a dream opportunity and had no
way of knowing that she would become the center of
a frankly nightmarish national frenzy. Many of you know that
Monica engaged in an intimate relationship with the most powerful
man in the world that then exploded into relentless scrutiny
(01:05):
and judgment and public shaming, involving investigators, politician and a
voracious media that turned her life inside out. Every private moment,
even from second grade, was dissected, broadcast and weaponized, and
overnight she became the target of what might be the
first modern digital stoning. Her name synonymous with scandal and
(01:28):
debate across the nation. You may assume that you know
her full story or her intentions, and if you do,
you're probably an unknowing participant in the most successful public
shaming and scapegoating of a woman in our country's political history.
But what could have destroyed her became the foundation for
Monica's reinvention. She has turned trauma and healing from it
(01:52):
into a platform for examining power, consent, and the mechanics
of man made humiliation, reclaiming in narrative that the world
once tried to own, becoming a podcaster herself, an incredible
executive producer, and someone who is working to accurately tell
the stories of women, reveal who they are beneath the headlines.
(02:17):
Monica is a trailblazer. I've been lucky enough to be
a guest on her podcast, Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky, which
you can listen to wherever you get your podcasts, and
today I'm very fortunate that she's joining me here on
work in Progress. Let's dive in with Monica. Hi.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Hi, I'm just so excited that you're here. Oh, thank you.
I'm excited to be here. I enjoyed our chat before
so much and so any opportunity. I don't know if
you've found this, but I have found and having people
I know on the podcast, I get this concentrated time
of having a conversation.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah, that I feel like it's not us.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
It's different than when we go to dinner or there
are other people around or whatever.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So yeah, I agree, there's something really there's something really
special about the container of these conversations and the unbothered
or uninterrupted time because we're so connected now that you're
sort of always supposed to be doing five things, so
to do just one thing with one person as a.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Gift, Yeah, I had this fantasy. I think it was
might have been yesterday at some point where I was like,
what if I just said I no longer accept email,
Like that's my dream and people have to call me
and just like in the old in the old days,
we got things done because you were doing one thing
(03:59):
at a time.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And you know, because there it is such I don't
know about for you, but I just get so overwhelmed.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I get so overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
It's kind of like I think all these verticals of communication,
even though they're supposed to make us more connected, make
us feel so much more separated because it's constant interruption
rather than any one focused thing, which is part of
why I think we love our podcasts so much. It's
(04:31):
part of why I think we get so excited when
we get to be with another person. But the just
the management of inboxes, Yeah, it takes all your time
up and it also takes all your time away from
real connection, and it's confusing.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, I mean I've started to feel like, Oh, my
a loser that I only have one phone. I think
everybody I know has two or three phones, and I
just I feel like, I.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Actually maybe I don't care.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I can't, I don't want to. I want to go
back to my old flip phone. I still have it,
and I'm like, I'm wonder if I could.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Just turn this thing back on, Yeah, come back with
baby Nokia right, what.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I would give? Well, my gosh, I'm so happy that
you're here.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Our conversation on your show was so fortifying for me.
Oh and I I know I told you this then,
but I think it's worth repeating, you know, for all
of our friends who are listening at home. I am
so deeply inspired by the person that you are, by
(05:40):
your resilience, by your willingness to give so much to
people and to do it with real vulnerability and real humility.
And also you strike me as a woman who's just
kind of run out of focks to give And I
love that about you. And I know from my own
(06:02):
versions of experience with public life, even when you run
out of them, there's still no way to be a
person who's been through what you've been through and not
feel so sensitive to the world. Yeah, and I think
I don't think. I know there are people who've chosen
(06:22):
to look deeper into your personhood, your story. I know
there's a lot of people. I mean, I even talked
about this with some of the team at the big
media company that runs this podcast. For me, there were
women who were like, oh, we didn't even get it
till we were prepping this episode with you, that we
absolutely fall into the camp of the women who claim
(06:45):
to be feminists and who judged this woman, who mistook
this woman, who didn't think to look deeper at this woman.
As we've learned more about power and gender and all
these dynamics in the world, and there's how much we
have to talk about. But also I hate that you
always have to talk about it. So I want to
(07:06):
do something that has nothing to.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Do with any of this.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
First, okay, in the spirit of your show, I want
to reclaim our space together and you together in a way,
and go way back in time before anybody knew anything
about you on the global stage. I know, through my
own journey of therapy, I think a lot about the
younger versions of myself that I carry with me. You know,
(07:30):
this woman, this author, Maggie Smith, who I love, has
this metaphor of nesting dolls, and I think about all
the younger versions of us and the little versions of
us that are inside of us always. I think a
lot about my eight year old self because of things
that were happening in my life at the time. And
I'm really curious if you and I could walk onto
(07:51):
a playground right now and run into our eight year
old selves. Oh my gosh, Yeah, what qualities would you
see in that little girl, in that version of yourself?
That would feel like an AHA moment for you, given
who you are as a woman today.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
What an interesting question.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I guess the similarities that I would see are very sensitive,
I would understand. I think some of that sensitivity I
would understand now as having come from different kinds of trauma,
different ways, and so that the the eight year old
(08:33):
who was a people pleaser, who you know, struggle to
not be the best. And so I think I see
some of those parts there, and I'm probably still working
on that, not probably am still working on those versions.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
But I also I, you know, it's weird.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I look back on my childhood, and iarents would probably
say something different. I look back on my childhood and
I feel like I was kind of a serious kid,
even though I like to have fun at times. You know,
there's a a heaviness there. I didn't and in some
(09:18):
ways still don't understand that. Maybe it's something I came
in with. Maybe it's not even really mine, you know,
in that way, but that there's I always cared about
other people, and I think I was very sensitive, as
I said, you know, but yeah, because wait.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Eight, is is that second grade? Eight? Second grade?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Around there, I think, or second or third grade?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Right, Yeah, So I think I I feel like I
look back now and there are these moments that, you know,
stand out of moment in first grade, I like the
first time I couldn't get the math answers and that frustration,
and I couldn't go see Carrie Burl's bunny, whom I
(10:08):
ran into randomly at the spot, like you know, within
the last six months, she looks exactly the same. So
but you know, it was like Friday Show and Tell
and she brought her bunny and I couldn't. You weren't
allowed to go to show and Tell until you finish
the thing. And so there's a very marked moment for
(10:28):
me of I think, not ever having struggled with anything
in school in first grade and that moment. And I
look back on that now and I sort of wonder,
you know, we just parenting and I'm not a parent,
but I think it's I see for my friends, it's
so different now, right, So if I were parenting myself
(10:52):
today at that age, I would be looking at that
moment and.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Sort of going, what's going on? What's going on around
all this?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Right, I'm not really sure what I'm babbling about, but
you know that that was sort of little me.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
And you know, they're they're definitely there.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I think there is a strong sense of resilience and
survival that came from early on, and as my therapist
will say, it serves me very well that I don't
give up in many places, and sometimes it's.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
A little maladaptive.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, so, and we have that in common.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I will make this relationship work, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, it's really interesting you talk about it as a
heaviness that seems out of place for a young child,
because I feel a real kinship to that. You know,
I spent most of my childhood being told that I
was an old soul and always talking to adult, you know,
(12:01):
even when there were other kids around. And I think
there's all sorts of great parts of that kind of identity.
I do find for me that as I look back
and look back at certain choices, and to your point,
look back at things I've tried to make work, even
(12:22):
when if I were looking at a friend, I'd be
like give it up, Like get out of there. That
thing or that person doesn't deserve you. I think there
is something common for those types of kids, whereas you
get older, you really are seeking a safety or a stability,
(12:45):
you know, you want to build a life. When I
think about some of the decisions I made, some of
the things I pursued, you know, in my early twenties,
I wanted to create something more stable than what I
came from, even though I came from looked very stable
on the surface, And I wonder if it's part of
(13:08):
what led me to early career success, which is great,
and also to early personal pain and humiliation which wasn't like.
It really is a double edged sword when you think
about that sense and the way you were learning resiliency
and to show up in a way so early. When
(13:32):
you look back at that little girl and think about
your evolution from second grade on through high school, would
you would you say that she was ambitious, confident, more shy.
Did you find validation in you know, scholastic success for example?
(13:52):
Like how how how does how does she seem to
you now from this like very healthy, grown up place.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I would say outgoing is probably the first word that
kind of comes to mind.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
That it was.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I think I always wanted to be liked, but it
was also really important to me that people around me
felt included too. That was something that was important to
me from a young age. And I'm sort of still
that way because I think any anybody who's gone through
(14:27):
and I've had this in every stage of my life,
that sense of.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Not feeling like you don't belong or aren't wanted.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
It's so terrifying when you're a young person. You know,
it's I think, very early on from a primal point
of view, right, we won't survive if our parents, if
our parents don't love us, if our parents don't take
care of us, or someone some adult doesn't take care
of us, we will not survive. Will stop, right, And
so it begins there, and then it becomes more about
(14:57):
those social circles. And I think there's that sort of
the paradox of both being someone for whom those things
are important. It then means any kind of public shaming,
whether it's a small group of public shaming, or the
world is felt you know, infinitely deeper, you know, So
(15:20):
there's there's sort of that that mix there. I also,
I just want to jump back to what you were
saying before too. I just want I want to thank
you for your kind words. And I also want to
say that even having been at the center of a
gender global scandal with a lot of misogyny, I still
(15:43):
also too make that mistake of judging other women, or
judging other situations, or not seeing something fully. So even
going through it doesn't necessarily inoculate you from I think
a lot of the culture or whatever those things are.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
So yeah, I'm also step yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. Listen. I think we're human. Humans are inherently fallible.
We make mistakes.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It's why they say hindsight's twenty twenty, right. You got
to look back and see the mistakes you were making
in the moment. You're having emotional and physical and psychosocial experiences,
and they just happen. I think what's really important, and
you just said it is even the ability when you're
in the midst of a moment, when you're forming thoughts, judgments, opinions,
(16:53):
just the ability to go, oh, wait a second, where
did that come from?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Or the ability to look back and go wow, you know,
I had an opinion about this thing ten years ago,
and it's different now based on this information that I
now have. I think that's kind of the best we
can do. I don't think anyone ever becomes some sort
of perfect, like non judgmental ball of light, like then
you're in the place wherever your soul goes after you die.
(17:21):
I think I don't think it's not here.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
On the other dimensions, it's not here, but no, yeah,
it's it is. I think there's you know, And I
also think it's important if people feel comfortable. But people
who were in the public eye, who have some sort
of a public platform, it's important to talk about those moments,
(17:44):
you know, because I think it allows other people to
you you were reaching a lot of people at once
with something for them to consider, you know. I until,
like my experiences in ninety eight, just a lot of
women who went through things who then posed in a
magazine like Playboy or Penhouse or Hustle, whatever those were,
(18:09):
for money.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I had a lot of.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Judgment of like, oh, you know, I would never do that,
and I was. But I was only able to not
do it because I came from an upper middle class family, right,
you know, and so I wasn't responsible for putting food
on the table for my children, or maybe responsible. And
so you come to understand, or I came to understand,
(18:32):
you know, that those.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
People make those choices.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Women make those choices oftentimes because there is no alternative
yes and so, and that that sort of critical thinking
through experience and empathy and emotion. I try to find
ways to do that in other places.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
But I don't always you know that, I mean.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
You're human. I you know, I come from like a
very hot headed line of Italian women. Like sometimes my
initial feeling is very different than the feeling I am
able to process or speak about in a moment like this,
(19:20):
when I'm in a calm state, I've had time, I've
really been able to self interrogate. I've been able to
ask more information, more questions of the world around me.
It's like, and I think you have to let yourself
off the hook a little bit for your humanity, because
otherwise you're just performing, You're just becoming a kind of
(19:45):
fractional version of yourself because you're worried about how you
might seem to other people.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yes, I mean I think I still do that. I
you know, and I think you know sort of you
were maybe not using this word, but sort of talking
about it earlier. But I think that one of the
most important things, it seems like, in the world right now,
of those of us who are sort of in that
(20:12):
the deep diverse, you know, the ones who look not
the ones who look away, as around the importance and
the relationship between noticing and a nervous system, you know,
and that how important the noticing is. And it seems
so there are times where I catch myself where it's like, oh,
(20:33):
big can deal. I you know, realize there's another younger
version of myself here, and it's like that that doesn't
change that outcome and that this and the that, But
I have to remember that there was a version of
me that didn't notice at all before. And so it's
like when we start to notice, when we're able to
(20:55):
just try to untangle things right, that can lead us
more towards It's the ability.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
To you know, camer nervous systems.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
And I think that's you know, that's been a big
part of the conversations.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Like I.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Was interested to call the podcast Reclaiming because I feel
like reclaiming is this sort of it's a bigger body
of experience than just the definition. Yeah, and it feels
like that of mindfulness to me. And I feel like
or talk about the nervous system and polyvagel theory and
all of that has become that's like the next phase
(21:34):
for mindfulness. And I think reclaiming comes comes right in
there or right after absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And I think when you've when you've been through something,
particularly in public life and you get kind of cast
as an archetype rather than represented as yourself. The desire
to reclaim it's such like an internal fire. I have
felt it, you know. I think it was part of
(22:03):
the reason. I think it was part of the core
reason I started this interview series.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I did it because I was thinking to myself, I
have access to these wonderful people in these rooms that
so many people don't get to come into, and I
want to be able to bring them in. It feels
like service, it feels like advocacy. It feels like, you know,
all of these things that I care so much about,
and it enabled me to be my most empathetic, curious
(22:35):
and intellectual self in a world that you know, from
the early aughts on TV wanted me to be like
the hot vixen and I was like, hold on, that's
not that's not the sum total of me. And you know,
even the girls and I doing our podcast to go
(22:58):
back and rewatch our first show and claim it from
the me too universe of that. Ye, I think there's
really something when you are reduced in the eyes of others,
anywhere you can be your full self feels so powerful
and it's not lost on me that from these vantage
points you and I sit at in our adult lives,
(23:18):
having gone back and you know, reparented and given therapy too,
and re loved in a way our younger selves. You
also studied psychology and college like a there's a really
interesting kind of rainbow to now and then the arc
of that. You know, do you think when you look
(23:42):
back at that choice and you think about that heaviness
that you couldn't exactly identify but that you knew you
carried as a kid. Was psychology a way for you
to consider processing that bigger internal life. Was it all
so something that felt like a great path to go
(24:03):
down for service? Was it something that you thought, this
could be great for understanding people in a political world
that I'm hoping to go and enter into and maybe
work in. How'd you choose it?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Well?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I didn't have any political ambitions like that when college even.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
No, No, when I was.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
When I was I think in kindergarten for about five minutes,
I wanted to be president.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I think every kid maybe goes through that. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And it's but other than that, I did not have
political aspirations at all. And I think this psychology all
the things that you were just mentioning. I think both
a fascination with people, a fascination.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I'm not sure I would have used.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
The word fascination, but the exploration of my own internal
experiences and the weight of pain and not understanding that
I think in many ways. So and then there was
also I became really fascinated. I took a what was
(25:12):
it called, I can't remember what the class was called,
but in my major, it was a class that taught
you about psychological instruments, so like how all these tests
are devised.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
And I was really fascinated by that.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I think just this idea of, oh, if you look
at something and analyze something enough and you pull out
the right pieces, you can come up with a formula
in the shape of a test that will give you
an answer that puts someone in a bucket, that helps
you understand and helps you fix.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
And that was it was endlessly fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And so from there in particular, I was I think
I was fascinated by certain personality tests that they gave
at the FBI, which led me to want to possibly
work at the FBI. And I was also interested by
I can't remember what the test is called, but it's
something they do in jury selection where they show people
(26:12):
images and they ask you to tell a story about
the image. So not rorshack, but like a proper image
and it uncovers biases. And so I was really interested
by that those And so that's why when I was
in college, like the plans sort of probably junior and
senior year, was to get a PhD in forensic psychology.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
How then did the idea to apply to work at
the White House happen? So forensic psychology is brewing. Did
someone suggest it to you? You know, it feels so
intimidating to me, So how did you begin?
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Two things, I guess really three things happened, but roughly
around the same time. And so one was, while I
got a good enough score on the GRE, I did
not get a high enough score on the psych specific
test to get into the PhD program I wanted to
(27:18):
go to according to my advisor, who then said, if
you want a PhD, you shouldn't go somewhere else for
a master's because you'll have to repeat a lot of
those credits and blah blah blah. So I was like, Okay,
I guess I'll retake the GRES and psych specific or
psych specific test next next year.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And move that way.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Then at some point before I graduated college, and there
it was summer winter, I can't remember, sorry.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I was with my aunt in DC, and I remember
when we.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Passed by the White House and the old Executive Office
Building for the first time, I said out loud to her, Wow,
it is so beautiful. Could you imagine going to work
there every day? I can't even I'm very impacted by
the aesthetic of my environment. So whether it's you know,
just beauty, beauty in some way, and so I feel
(28:17):
like in some ways I set an intention which I
didn't realize, you know, or created this opening of an opportunity.
And then the third was we had a family friend
who was a big donor and his grandson had done
this program, and so my mom was wanting me to
(28:38):
come out east because the whole my mom's side of
the family had moved east and I was living in Portland, Oregon,
and so it was she was like, well, why don't
you apply, and while to write a letter of recommendations.
So I was like, okay, fine, So I applied. I
wrote an essay basically like because I was a psych major.
(29:00):
I you know, the in psychology we study the mind
of the individual, but the White House is the mind
of the country, and so that was really that was
where there was an interest for me.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
And then I you know, I think about that.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I got accepted probably because of our family friend Downer,
but I was not just xeroxing and I was writing,
I think because of my essay.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
So yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. So
what was it like to arrive there? I mean, I
know that you worked in Leon Panetta's office when you're
(29:44):
in your early twenties and suddenly you are going to
work at the White House every day? How do you
get adjusted? How do you figure out where things are?
You know, who's the person you go to for advice
in that moment? Is it other interns or junior staffers
who kind of help you learn the ropes?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I had an amazing I guess boss who was like
the head of a division in the chief of Staff's office.
Who have you said was Leon Panett at at times?
So I'm not going to say her last name in case.
I mean we've we've stayed in touch, like I've seen
her post everything. But Tracy, who was an amazing mentor uh,
(30:24):
And so I think that there her. You know, there
was another intern in myself who were her staff basically, So,
you know, I think that that really was the process.
And our office was nested inside a bigger office of
other departments in the old Executive Office building.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And so when you arrived, what do you get assigned to, Like,
what's the project, what do you get to see? What
are you working on?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
We're handling all of the correspondents that Lee Paneta got.
So because he was a congressman before he came to
the White House, he had a huge following from California.
People who wrote to him, some people who wrote daily,
lots of people, And so our job was to manage
(31:17):
the flow of his correspondence.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It was kind of the not so much personal, because
it was.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Reaching out to him in a official capacity.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Of course, So you were really also getting to see
the in a way, the issues that had the highest
importance to voters, to constituents. You know, if you're managing
somebody's mail from a state as large as California, you
know that people are writing in about environmental regulation, about
who knows forestry, like any anything.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I would love to tell you that I paid attention
to that and was focused on that, but I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
It was not.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
You know, I loved working.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I had always, you know, I just sort of I
worked from like I tried to get a job before
it was legally I was legally allowed. I lied about
my age trying to get a job, so and I
worked all through college.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
And I really liked working.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So I loved being in this environment and I tried
to do the best job I could.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
But I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I mean, I look back now and I even think
about my time at the Pentagon. I had ridiculously high
security clearance, and.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
I don't look at anything. I just wasn't interested. I
just I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I wasn't the kind of young twenty year old who
was interested in that stuff, which is probably why I
got into so much trouble.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
So but you know, it's I just I think it's
it's interesting to me because probably you know, one of
the narratives that came out about me from my time
indeed was that I was a ditzy bimbo, and it was.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Always sort of this.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
It was kind of fascinating to me because I've never
really been a big intellectual but I've always been an
interesting thinker, and so in that way, it was very
meaningful to me when when I started to talk to
(33:29):
people at the TED organization about doing my TED Talk,
and the first person I engaged with there when she
said to me, your first job out of college was
at the White House, like, you are not an idiot,
And so that was sort of a really something I
had been waiting to hear for a long time because
(33:52):
I often thought about if you had taken all the
facts about me, if I had, you know, if I
had tragically passed away for some reason. And so there
was some obituary written about me as pre ninety eight,
but being in DC, you know, it's it was impressive, yes,
(34:17):
you know, and so and all of that got lost.
And when I participated in a documentary that came out
in twenty eighteen for the twenty year mark of the impeachment,
and Blair Foster, the director was so you know, she
really wanted to spend time with these photos and talking
(34:39):
about the period when I was working at the Pentagon
and these photos of me on a plane, you know,
with the Secretary of Defense and the reporters who have
now been ps kicked out of the Pentagon where they worked.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Down the hall from where I was.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
It's so crazy, and so that I actually worked, you know,
I I worked hard. I might have done other things
that were wrong and stub but I was a really
hard worker.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
But I think again, what you're talking about is the
totality of yourself, your identity, not just the clickbait or
the headline. And it's something I understand so deeply, and
it's so frustrating, and I've tried to explain it to people.
It's like an itch on the inside of your body.
(35:29):
It's something you can never scratch. Yes, you know, it's
like you get a piece of shrapnel in you and
they can't take it out, and you turn and when
you least expect it, it zings from the inside. And
I think so much about what that must have meant
for you to be able to be reminded of your
(35:52):
being gifted, your being a smart young kid who was
on a really impressive career track, and then the shift,
you know, the shift of exposure that you went through.
I'm gonna list off if you don't mind a couple
of things that strike me. It drives me crazy because
(36:13):
your whole self got eclipsed by something that happened by
essentially a chapter of your book became your whole book. Also,
there were dynamics at play that I'm sure from today's
standpoint and the things that we've learned. Yes, I will
be the first person to say a lot of that
was not in the social consciousness in the nineties, right,
(36:34):
you know, the ways we talk about gender and patriarchy and.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Power, all of that about.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
But I think the I think we have so broadened
this spectrum for how we understand it now.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, I think we have just had so much more
time knowledge research. We're so much more connected. We understand
things in ways we didn't necessarily then. We were much
more stereotypical and tropy. Yes, you know, Yes, of course,
women like Audrey Lord and Glorious Steinem had been screaming
the stuff from the rooftops, but it wasn't in the
mind of every single woman in America in the way
(37:09):
that I would say it is or is close to now.
And you know, I also understand what it's like to
be twenty one, twenty two and think that something amazing
is happening to you. You know, I don't I know
that our experiences are not the same, but in a
(37:33):
way I feel such a kinship to what you went through.
You know, I was in a different position in the
sort of classic tale. But I think the reason that
I feel so passionate about it is especially because it's
always the women that get zeroed in on. It's the
(37:55):
spouse or you quote other women. It's always the women.
And for some reason, it's like women are never allowed
to forget either what was done to them or what
they did in not their best moment, and the men
like sort of.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Go, well, you know, boys will be boys at whatever
age they are exactly well, I mean, we're seeing this
play out right now, even in that frame of the
conversation of all this, like Megan Kelly of like a
fifteen year old is a young woman and not I mean,
but it is the difference that we see between men
(38:33):
and women, between.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Races, like it is. It is.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
It's horrifying and exactly what you're saying too.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
But I don't know about for you.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I think for me, and it's actually annoyingly something I
still can work on.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
It's like the chosen thing. There's something about when you feel.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Kind of chosen, and that chosen comes wrapped in specialness,
and somehow, you.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Know, if this person sees you.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
In a way that no one else has seen you
and they think you're special. I don't really understand it
biologically or evolutionarily, but there.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Is something about that.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
If that is, if that's been a place where you've
had a dearth of experience being that person. Yeah, you know,
it is intoxicating, no matter how dangerous, no matter how wrong.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Absolutely, And I also think there's something really important to
touch on that people often miss because there's this idea
that when you're in these circles of privilege or sort
of elitism, everything is just so fancy and things become
relative pretty quick. You're super impressed the first couple of
(39:57):
times you walk in the White House gates, I imagine,
and then eventual it's just the place you go to work.
You know, the gravity of things wears off and you're
just kind of living your life. And I wonder for you,
you know, when we talk about that, what happens next
From your early career to ninety eight. The world knows
(40:19):
or thinks they know your story through the spin of
media and politicians and agendas. You know, there was there
was so much animus to really good progressive work being
done in President Clinton's white House that people wanted a
(40:40):
reason to take him down. Also deeply inappropriate behavior. Also
rather again than really figuring out this dynamic, it seems
at least you got thrown on the fire, HRC thrown
(41:00):
on the fire. It really it became this scandal of
the women. And I'm curious for you. I know that
in hindsight, you know, nobody was looking out for you,
obvioularly they were like, oh, we can use this.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I was hurry, more expendable than I think I ever
could have imagined, because I couldn't do that to someone else, right,
you know.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
I guess I'm curious for you. You know, what were
you aware of about the way your personal experience was
being amplified and really distorted at the time? And what
do you think you've been able to understand since? Because
this wasn't just a personal kerfuffle in to overlapping groups
(41:55):
of people. This was the power of an entire national landscape,
white House, Pentagon, all sorts of people who had all
sorts of goals that had nothing to do with you
or a wager either of them. Yeah, it's a big
machine to get chewed up in and spit out by. Like, yeah,
(42:17):
when you sit with it today, what do you think
are the biggest misconceptions? Is there anything you want to
correct or are you like, let's move on to the
next question, because like, I've done it and I'm good
because I in the weirdest way, I don't want to
ask you to relive things you've had to rehash forever,
and I want to give you the chance. So I
don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Let me say this, Sofia, I totally now that I
sit in the in the interviewer chair or the driver
of the conversation chair. Yeah, iugh, hundred percent understand that
the sort of the wanting to have a meaningful conversation
and also not wanting to ask someone to go through
the trauma. And I get exactly and I appreciate it,
(43:00):
and I you know, I think that there are there's
so many different aspects of what happened that my like
my mind reworked over years. You know, i'd say relensed.
(43:20):
Maybe in some ways, I've always been really careful and
really mindful to to sort of hold on to the
facts too. I was so mindful of not wanting to
be someone who like got on a bandwagon and totally
(43:41):
changed what my experience was because now it fits some
different narrative, and so it was, you know, and I
still work on piecing together. Okay, what how I took
so much responsibility at the time too, and that and
I remember the kind of grown ups in the room
(44:03):
being like, you are a child. I mean I was
twenty two. I was twenty four when it happened. When
twenty four when it became public. Yes, so we're just
not a child forster, but like a really young adult.
And I took on so much responsibility. And I felt
(44:24):
an enormous amount of guilt because if I had not,
there's obviously making different choices about behavior I engaged in.
But if I had also not confided in Linda Tripp,
this never would have become public.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
This is such an incredible conversation, and I'm thrilled to
let you know that while we are at the end
of part one, there is a part two with Monica Lewinski.
We'll discuss what her life would have been like if
this all didn't happen, who helped her with the scary parts,
and maybe find the silver lining of what good came
with this tremendous amount of hardship. I'm also going to
(45:00):
ask her her thoughts about the Epstein emails and victims.
We'll touch on what's wrong with telling people they have
to stand up to a bully to reclaim their story,
and we'll learn about what it means to both grieve
and thrive in tiny pockets. I'll see you for Part
two with Monica
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,
welcome back to Work in Progress. This week we have
a guest who has been a sensation in the news
(00:22):
since the nineties, who lots of people think they know,
lots of people have opinions about, and I think in
recent years a lot of us are having to self
interrogate where those opinions come from and maybe just maybe
ask her who she is. Today we're joined by Monica Lewinsky.
(00:42):
She went to Washington at twenty two years old thinking
that she was chasing a dream opportunity and had no
way of knowing that she would become the center of
a frankly nightmarish national frenzy. Many of you know that
Monica engaged in an intimate relationship with the most powerful
man in the world that then exploded into relentless scrutiny
(01:05):
and judgment and public shaming, involving investigators, politician and a
voracious media that turned her life inside out. Every private moment,
even from second grade, was dissected, broadcast and weaponized, and
overnight she became the target of what might be the
first modern digital stoning. Her name synonymous with scandal and
(01:28):
debate across the nation. You may assume that you know
her full story or her intentions, and if you do,
you're probably an unknowing participant in the most successful public
shaming and scapegoating of a woman in our country's political history.
But what could have destroyed her became the foundation for
Monica's reinvention. She has turned trauma and healing from it
(01:52):
into a platform for examining power, consent, and the mechanics
of man made humiliation, reclaiming in narrative that the world
once tried to own, becoming a podcaster herself, an incredible
executive producer, and someone who is working to accurately tell
the stories of women, reveal who they are beneath the headlines.
(02:17):
Monica is a trailblazer. I've been lucky enough to be
a guest on her podcast, Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky, which
you can listen to wherever you get your podcasts, and
today I'm very fortunate that she's joining me here on
work in Progress. Let's dive in with Monica. Hi.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Hi, I'm just so excited that you're here. Oh, thank you.
I'm excited to be here. I enjoyed our chat before
so much and so any opportunity. I don't know if
you've found this, but I have found and having people
I know on the podcast, I get this concentrated time
of having a conversation.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah, that I feel like it's not us.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
It's different than when we go to dinner or there
are other people around or whatever.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So yeah, I agree, there's something really there's something really
special about the container of these conversations and the unbothered
or uninterrupted time because we're so connected now that you're
sort of always supposed to be doing five things, so
to do just one thing with one person as a.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Gift, Yeah, I had this fantasy. I think it was
might have been yesterday at some point where I was like,
what if I just said I no longer accept email,
Like that's my dream and people have to call me
and just like in the old in the old days,
we got things done because you were doing one thing
(03:59):
at a time.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And you know, because there it is such I don't
know about for you, but I just get so overwhelmed.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
I get so overwhelmed.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
It's kind of like I think all these verticals of communication,
even though they're supposed to make us more connected, make
us feel so much more separated because it's constant interruption
rather than any one focused thing, which is part of
why I think we love our podcasts so much. It's
(04:31):
part of why I think we get so excited when
we get to be with another person. But the just
the management of inboxes, Yeah, it takes all your time
up and it also takes all your time away from
real connection, and it's confusing.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, I mean I've started to feel like, Oh, my
a loser that I only have one phone. I think
everybody I know has two or three phones, and I
just I feel like, I.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Actually maybe I don't care.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I can't, I don't want to. I want to go
back to my old flip phone. I still have it,
and I'm like, I'm wonder if I could.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Just turn this thing back on, Yeah, come back with
baby Nokia right, what.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
I would give? Well, my gosh, I'm so happy that
you're here.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Our conversation on your show was so fortifying for me.
Oh and I I know I told you this then,
but I think it's worth repeating, you know, for all
of our friends who are listening at home. I am
so deeply inspired by the person that you are, by
(05:40):
your resilience, by your willingness to give so much to
people and to do it with real vulnerability and real humility.
And also you strike me as a woman who's just
kind of run out of focks to give And I
love that about you. And I know from my own
(06:02):
versions of experience with public life, even when you run
out of them, there's still no way to be a
person who's been through what you've been through and not
feel so sensitive to the world. Yeah, and I think
I don't think. I know there are people who've chosen
(06:22):
to look deeper into your personhood, your story. I know
there's a lot of people. I mean, I even talked
about this with some of the team at the big
media company that runs this podcast. For me, there were
women who were like, oh, we didn't even get it
till we were prepping this episode with you, that we
absolutely fall into the camp of the women who claim
(06:45):
to be feminists and who judged this woman, who mistook
this woman, who didn't think to look deeper at this woman.
As we've learned more about power and gender and all
these dynamics in the world, and there's how much we
have to talk about. But also I hate that you
always have to talk about it. So I want to
(07:06):
do something that has nothing to.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Do with any of this.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
First, okay, in the spirit of your show, I want
to reclaim our space together and you together in a way,
and go way back in time before anybody knew anything
about you on the global stage. I know, through my
own journey of therapy, I think a lot about the
younger versions of myself that I carry with me. You know,
(07:30):
this woman, this author, Maggie Smith, who I love, has
this metaphor of nesting dolls, and I think about all
the younger versions of us and the little versions of
us that are inside of us always. I think a
lot about my eight year old self because of things
that were happening in my life at the time. And
I'm really curious if you and I could walk onto
(07:51):
a playground right now and run into our eight year
old selves. Oh my gosh, Yeah, what qualities would you
see in that little girl, in that version of yourself?
That would feel like an AHA moment for you, given
who you are as a woman today.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
What an interesting question.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I guess the similarities that I would see are very sensitive,
I would understand. I think some of that sensitivity I
would understand now as having come from different kinds of trauma,
different ways, and so that the the eight year old
(08:33):
who was a people pleaser, who you know, struggle to
not be the best. And so I think I see
some of those parts there, and I'm probably still working
on that, not probably am still working on those versions.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
But I also I, you know, it's weird.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I look back on my childhood, and iarents would probably
say something different. I look back on my childhood and
I feel like I was kind of a serious kid,
even though I like to have fun at times. You know,
there's a a heaviness there. I didn't and in some
(09:18):
ways still don't understand that. Maybe it's something I came
in with. Maybe it's not even really mine, you know,
in that way, but that there's I always cared about
other people, and I think I was very sensitive, as
I said, you know, but yeah, because wait.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Eight, is is that second grade? Eight? Second grade?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Around there, I think, or second or third grade?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Right, Yeah, So I think I I feel like I
look back now and there are these moments that, you know,
stand out of moment in first grade, I like the
first time I couldn't get the math answers and that frustration,
and I couldn't go see Carrie Burl's bunny, whom I
(10:08):
ran into randomly at the spot, like you know, within
the last six months, she looks exactly the same. So
but you know, it was like Friday Show and Tell
and she brought her bunny and I couldn't. You weren't
allowed to go to show and Tell until you finish
the thing. And so there's a very marked moment for
(10:28):
me of I think, not ever having struggled with anything
in school in first grade and that moment. And I
look back on that now and I sort of wonder,
you know, we just parenting and I'm not a parent,
but I think it's I see for my friends, it's
so different now, right, So if I were parenting myself
(10:52):
today at that age, I would be looking at that
moment and.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Sort of going, what's going on? What's going on around
all this?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Right, I'm not really sure what I'm babbling about, but
you know that that was sort of little me.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
And you know, they're they're definitely there.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I think there is a strong sense of resilience and
survival that came from early on, and as my therapist
will say, it serves me very well that I don't
give up in many places, and sometimes it's.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
A little maladaptive.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, so, and we have that in common.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I will make this relationship work, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, it's really interesting you talk about it as a
heaviness that seems out of place for a young child,
because I feel a real kinship to that. You know,
I spent most of my childhood being told that I
was an old soul and always talking to adult, you know,
(12:01):
even when there were other kids around. And I think
there's all sorts of great parts of that kind of identity.
I do find for me that as I look back
and look back at certain choices, and to your point,
look back at things I've tried to make work, even
(12:22):
when if I were looking at a friend, I'd be
like give it up, Like get out of there. That
thing or that person doesn't deserve you. I think there
is something common for those types of kids, whereas you
get older, you really are seeking a safety or a stability,
(12:45):
you know, you want to build a life. When I
think about some of the decisions I made, some of
the things I pursued, you know, in my early twenties,
I wanted to create something more stable than what I
came from, even though I came from looked very stable
on the surface, And I wonder if it's part of
(13:08):
what led me to early career success, which is great,
and also to early personal pain and humiliation which wasn't like.
It really is a double edged sword when you think
about that sense and the way you were learning resiliency
and to show up in a way so early. When
(13:32):
you look back at that little girl and think about
your evolution from second grade on through high school, would
you would you say that she was ambitious, confident, more shy.
Did you find validation in you know, scholastic success for example?
(13:52):
Like how how how does how does she seem to
you now from this like very healthy, grown up place.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I would say outgoing is probably the first word that
kind of comes to mind.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
That it was.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I think I always wanted to be liked, but it
was also really important to me that people around me
felt included too. That was something that was important to
me from a young age. And I'm sort of still
that way because I think any anybody who's gone through
(14:27):
and I've had this in every stage of my life,
that sense of.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Not feeling like you don't belong or aren't wanted.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
It's so terrifying when you're a young person. You know,
it's I think, very early on from a primal point
of view, right, we won't survive if our parents, if
our parents don't love us, if our parents don't take
care of us, or someone some adult doesn't take care
of us, we will not survive. Will stop, right, And
so it begins there, and then it becomes more about
(14:57):
those social circles. And I think there's that sort of
the paradox of both being someone for whom those things
are important. It then means any kind of public shaming,
whether it's a small group of public shaming, or the
world is felt you know, infinitely deeper, you know, So
(15:20):
there's there's sort of that that mix there. I also,
I just want to jump back to what you were
saying before too. I just want I want to thank
you for your kind words. And I also want to
say that even having been at the center of a
gender global scandal with a lot of misogyny, I still
(15:43):
also too make that mistake of judging other women, or
judging other situations, or not seeing something fully. So even
going through it doesn't necessarily inoculate you from I think
a lot of the culture or whatever those things are.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
So yeah, I'm also step yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
And now a word from our sponsors who make this
show possible. Listen. I think we're human. Humans are inherently fallible.
We make mistakes.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It's why they say hindsight's twenty twenty, right. You got
to look back and see the mistakes you were making
in the moment. You're having emotional and physical and psychosocial experiences,
and they just happen. I think what's really important, and
you just said it is even the ability when you're
in the midst of a moment, when you're forming thoughts, judgments, opinions,
(16:53):
just the ability to go, oh, wait a second, where
did that come from?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Or the ability to look back and go wow, you know,
I had an opinion about this thing ten years ago,
and it's different now based on this information that I
now have. I think that's kind of the best we
can do. I don't think anyone ever becomes some sort
of perfect, like non judgmental ball of light, like then
you're in the place wherever your soul goes after you die.
(17:21):
I think I don't think it's not here.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
On the other dimensions, it's not here, but no, yeah,
it's it is. I think there's you know, And I
also think it's important if people feel comfortable. But people
who were in the public eye, who have some sort
of a public platform, it's important to talk about those moments,
(17:44):
you know, because I think it allows other people to
you you were reaching a lot of people at once
with something for them to consider, you know. I until,
like my experiences in ninety eight, just a lot of
women who went through things who then posed in a
magazine like Playboy or Penhouse or Hustle, whatever those were,
(18:09):
for money.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I had a lot of.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Judgment of like, oh, you know, I would never do that,
and I was. But I was only able to not
do it because I came from an upper middle class family, right,
you know, and so I wasn't responsible for putting food
on the table for my children, or maybe responsible. And
so you come to understand, or I came to understand,
(18:32):
you know, that those.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
People make those choices.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Women make those choices oftentimes because there is no alternative
yes and so, and that that sort of critical thinking
through experience and empathy and emotion. I try to find
ways to do that in other places.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
But I don't always you know that, I mean.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
You're human. I you know, I come from like a
very hot headed line of Italian women. Like sometimes my
initial feeling is very different than the feeling I am
able to process or speak about in a moment like this,
(19:20):
when I'm in a calm state, I've had time, I've
really been able to self interrogate. I've been able to
ask more information, more questions of the world around me.
It's like, and I think you have to let yourself
off the hook a little bit for your humanity, because
otherwise you're just performing, You're just becoming a kind of
(19:45):
fractional version of yourself because you're worried about how you
might seem to other people.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
You know.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yes, I mean I think I still do that. I
you know, and I think you know sort of you
were maybe not using this word, but sort of talking
about it earlier. But I think that one of the
most important things, it seems like, in the world right now,
of those of us who are sort of in that
(20:12):
the deep diverse, you know, the ones who look not
the ones who look away, as around the importance and
the relationship between noticing and a nervous system, you know,
and that how important the noticing is. And it seems
so there are times where I catch myself where it's like, oh,
(20:33):
big can deal. I you know, realize there's another younger
version of myself here, and it's like that that doesn't
change that outcome and that this and the that, But
I have to remember that there was a version of
me that didn't notice at all before. And so it's
like when we start to notice, when we're able to
(20:55):
just try to untangle things right, that can lead us
more towards It's the ability.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
To you know, camer nervous systems.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
And I think that's you know, that's been a big
part of the conversations.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Like I.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Was interested to call the podcast Reclaiming because I feel
like reclaiming is this sort of it's a bigger body
of experience than just the definition. Yeah, and it feels
like that of mindfulness to me. And I feel like
or talk about the nervous system and polyvagel theory and
all of that has become that's like the next phase
(21:34):
for mindfulness. And I think reclaiming comes comes right in
there or right after absolutely.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And I think when you've when you've been through something,
particularly in public life and you get kind of cast
as an archetype rather than represented as yourself. The desire
to reclaim it's such like an internal fire. I have
felt it, you know. I think it was part of
(22:03):
the reason. I think it was part of the core
reason I started this interview series.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
You know.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I did it because I was thinking to myself, I
have access to these wonderful people in these rooms that
so many people don't get to come into, and I
want to be able to bring them in. It feels
like service, it feels like advocacy. It feels like, you know,
all of these things that I care so much about,
and it enabled me to be my most empathetic, curious
(22:35):
and intellectual self in a world that you know, from
the early aughts on TV wanted me to be like
the hot vixen and I was like, hold on, that's
not that's not the sum total of me. And you know,
even the girls and I doing our podcast to go
(22:58):
back and rewatch our first show and claim it from
the me too universe of that. Ye, I think there's
really something when you are reduced in the eyes of others,
anywhere you can be your full self feels so powerful
and it's not lost on me that from these vantage
points you and I sit at in our adult lives,
(23:18):
having gone back and you know, reparented and given therapy too,
and re loved in a way our younger selves. You
also studied psychology and college like a there's a really
interesting kind of rainbow to now and then the arc
of that. You know, do you think when you look
(23:42):
back at that choice and you think about that heaviness
that you couldn't exactly identify but that you knew you
carried as a kid. Was psychology a way for you
to consider processing that bigger internal life. Was it all
so something that felt like a great path to go
(24:03):
down for service? Was it something that you thought, this
could be great for understanding people in a political world
that I'm hoping to go and enter into and maybe
work in. How'd you choose it?
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Well?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I didn't have any political ambitions like that when college even.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
No, No, when I was.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
When I was I think in kindergarten for about five minutes,
I wanted to be president.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I think every kid maybe goes through that. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
And it's but other than that, I did not have
political aspirations at all. And I think this psychology all
the things that you were just mentioning. I think both
a fascination with people, a fascination.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I'm not sure I would have used.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
The word fascination, but the exploration of my own internal
experiences and the weight of pain and not understanding that
I think in many ways. So and then there was
also I became really fascinated. I took a what was
(25:12):
it called, I can't remember what the class was called,
but in my major, it was a class that taught
you about psychological instruments, so like how all these tests
are devised.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
And I was really fascinated by that.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I think just this idea of, oh, if you look
at something and analyze something enough and you pull out
the right pieces, you can come up with a formula
in the shape of a test that will give you
an answer that puts someone in a bucket, that helps
you understand and helps you fix.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
And that was it was endlessly fascinating to me.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And so from there in particular, I was I think
I was fascinated by certain personality tests that they gave
at the FBI, which led me to want to possibly
work at the FBI. And I was also interested by
I can't remember what the test is called, but it's
something they do in jury selection where they show people
(26:12):
images and they ask you to tell a story about
the image. So not rorshack, but like a proper image
and it uncovers biases. And so I was really interested
by that those And so that's why when I was
in college, like the plans sort of probably junior and
senior year, was to get a PhD in forensic psychology.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
How then did the idea to apply to work at
the White House happen? So forensic psychology is brewing. Did
someone suggest it to you? You know, it feels so
intimidating to me, So how did you begin?
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Two things, I guess really three things happened, but roughly
around the same time. And so one was, while I
got a good enough score on the GRE, I did
not get a high enough score on the psych specific
test to get into the PhD program I wanted to
(27:18):
go to according to my advisor, who then said, if
you want a PhD, you shouldn't go somewhere else for
a master's because you'll have to repeat a lot of
those credits and blah blah blah. So I was like, Okay,
I guess I'll retake the GRES and psych specific or
psych specific test next next year.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And move that way.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Then at some point before I graduated college, and there
it was summer winter, I can't remember, sorry.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I was with my aunt in DC, and I remember
when we.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Passed by the White House and the old Executive Office
Building for the first time, I said out loud to her, Wow,
it is so beautiful. Could you imagine going to work
there every day? I can't even I'm very impacted by
the aesthetic of my environment. So whether it's you know,
just beauty, beauty in some way, and so I feel
(28:17):
like in some ways I set an intention which I
didn't realize, you know, or created this opening of an opportunity.
And then the third was we had a family friend
who was a big donor and his grandson had done
this program, and so my mom was wanting me to
(28:38):
come out east because the whole my mom's side of
the family had moved east and I was living in Portland, Oregon,
and so it was she was like, well, why don't
you apply, and while to write a letter of recommendations.
So I was like, okay, fine, So I applied. I
wrote an essay basically like because I was a psych major.
(29:00):
I you know, the in psychology we study the mind
of the individual, but the White House is the mind
of the country, and so that was really that was
where there was an interest for me.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
And then I you know, I think about that.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
I got accepted probably because of our family friend Downer,
but I was not just xeroxing and I was writing,
I think because of my essay.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
So yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. So
what was it like to arrive there? I mean, I
know that you worked in Leon Panetta's office when you're
(29:44):
in your early twenties and suddenly you are going to
work at the White House every day? How do you
get adjusted? How do you figure out where things are?
You know, who's the person you go to for advice
in that moment? Is it other interns or junior staffers
who kind of help you learn the ropes?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
I had an amazing I guess boss who was like
the head of a division in the chief of Staff's office.
Who have you said was Leon Panett at at times?
So I'm not going to say her last name in case.
I mean we've we've stayed in touch, like I've seen
her post everything. But Tracy, who was an amazing mentor uh,
(30:24):
And so I think that there her. You know, there
was another intern in myself who were her staff basically, So,
you know, I think that that really was the process.
And our office was nested inside a bigger office of
other departments in the old Executive Office building.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
And so when you arrived, what do you get assigned to, Like,
what's the project, what do you get to see? What
are you working on?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
We're handling all of the correspondents that Lee Paneta got.
So because he was a congressman before he came to
the White House, he had a huge following from California.
People who wrote to him, some people who wrote daily,
lots of people, And so our job was to manage
(31:17):
the flow of his correspondence.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It was kind of the not so much personal, because
it was.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Reaching out to him in a official capacity.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Of course, So you were really also getting to see
the in a way, the issues that had the highest
importance to voters, to constituents. You know, if you're managing
somebody's mail from a state as large as California, you
know that people are writing in about environmental regulation, about
who knows forestry, like any anything.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I would love to tell you that I paid attention
to that and was focused on that, but I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
It was not.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
You know, I loved working.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I had always, you know, I just sort of I
worked from like I tried to get a job before
it was legally I was legally allowed. I lied about
my age trying to get a job, so and I
worked all through college.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
And I really liked working.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So I loved being in this environment and I tried
to do the best job I could.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
But I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I mean, I look back now and I even think
about my time at the Pentagon. I had ridiculously high
security clearance, and.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
I don't look at anything. I just wasn't interested. I
just I wasn't.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I wasn't the kind of young twenty year old who
was interested in that stuff, which is probably why I
got into so much trouble.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
So but you know, it's I just I think it's
it's interesting to me because probably you know, one of
the narratives that came out about me from my time
indeed was that I was a ditzy bimbo, and it was.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Always sort of this.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
It was kind of fascinating to me because I've never
really been a big intellectual but I've always been an
interesting thinker, and so in that way, it was very
meaningful to me when when I started to talk to
(33:29):
people at the TED organization about doing my TED Talk,
and the first person I engaged with there when she
said to me, your first job out of college was
at the White House, like, you are not an idiot,
And so that was sort of a really something I
had been waiting to hear for a long time because
(33:52):
I often thought about if you had taken all the
facts about me, if I had, you know, if I
had tragically passed away for some reason. And so there
was some obituary written about me as pre ninety eight,
but being in DC, you know, it's it was impressive, yes,
(34:17):
you know, and so and all of that got lost.
And when I participated in a documentary that came out
in twenty eighteen for the twenty year mark of the impeachment,
and Blair Foster, the director was so you know, she
really wanted to spend time with these photos and talking
(34:39):
about the period when I was working at the Pentagon
and these photos of me on a plane, you know,
with the Secretary of Defense and the reporters who have
now been ps kicked out of the Pentagon where they worked.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Down the hall from where I was.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
It's so crazy, and so that I actually worked, you know,
I I worked hard. I might have done other things
that were wrong and stub but I was a really
hard worker.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
But I think again, what you're talking about is the
totality of yourself, your identity, not just the clickbait or
the headline. And it's something I understand so deeply, and
it's so frustrating, and I've tried to explain it to people.
It's like an itch on the inside of your body.
(35:29):
It's something you can never scratch. Yes, you know, it's
like you get a piece of shrapnel in you and
they can't take it out, and you turn and when
you least expect it, it zings from the inside. And
I think so much about what that must have meant
for you to be able to be reminded of your
(35:52):
being gifted, your being a smart young kid who was
on a really impressive career track, and then the shift,
you know, the shift of exposure that you went through.
I'm gonna list off if you don't mind a couple
of things that strike me. It drives me crazy because
(36:13):
your whole self got eclipsed by something that happened by
essentially a chapter of your book became your whole book. Also,
there were dynamics at play that I'm sure from today's
standpoint and the things that we've learned. Yes, I will
be the first person to say a lot of that
was not in the social consciousness in the nineties, right,
(36:34):
you know, the ways we talk about gender and patriarchy and.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Power, all of that about.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
But I think the I think we have so broadened
this spectrum for how we understand it now.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, I think we have just had so much more
time knowledge research. We're so much more connected. We understand
things in ways we didn't necessarily then. We were much
more stereotypical and tropy. Yes, you know, Yes, of course,
women like Audrey Lord and Glorious Steinem had been screaming
the stuff from the rooftops, but it wasn't in the
mind of every single woman in America in the way
(37:09):
that I would say it is or is close to now.
And you know, I also understand what it's like to
be twenty one, twenty two and think that something amazing
is happening to you. You know, I don't I know
that our experiences are not the same, but in a
(37:33):
way I feel such a kinship to what you went through.
You know, I was in a different position in the
sort of classic tale. But I think the reason that
I feel so passionate about it is especially because it's
always the women that get zeroed in on. It's the
(37:55):
spouse or you quote other women. It's always the women.
And for some reason, it's like women are never allowed
to forget either what was done to them or what
they did in not their best moment, and the men
like sort of.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Go, well, you know, boys will be boys at whatever
age they are exactly well, I mean, we're seeing this
play out right now, even in that frame of the
conversation of all this, like Megan Kelly of like a
fifteen year old is a young woman and not I mean,
but it is the difference that we see between men
(38:33):
and women, between.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Races, like it is. It is.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
It's horrifying and exactly what you're saying too.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
But I don't know about for you.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I think for me, and it's actually annoyingly something I
still can work on.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
It's like the chosen thing. There's something about when you feel.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Kind of chosen, and that chosen comes wrapped in specialness,
and somehow, you.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
Know, if this person sees you.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
In a way that no one else has seen you
and they think you're special. I don't really understand it
biologically or evolutionarily, but there.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Is something about that.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
If that is, if that's been a place where you've
had a dearth of experience being that person. Yeah, you know,
it is intoxicating, no matter how dangerous, no matter how wrong.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Absolutely, And I also think there's something really important to
touch on that people often miss because there's this idea
that when you're in these circles of privilege or sort
of elitism, everything is just so fancy and things become
relative pretty quick. You're super impressed the first couple of
(39:57):
times you walk in the White House gates, I imagine,
and then eventual it's just the place you go to work.
You know, the gravity of things wears off and you're
just kind of living your life. And I wonder for you,
you know, when we talk about that, what happens next
From your early career to ninety eight. The world knows
(40:19):
or thinks they know your story through the spin of
media and politicians and agendas. You know, there was there
was so much animus to really good progressive work being
done in President Clinton's white House that people wanted a
(40:40):
reason to take him down. Also deeply inappropriate behavior. Also
rather again than really figuring out this dynamic, it seems
at least you got thrown on the fire, HRC thrown
(41:00):
on the fire. It really it became this scandal of
the women. And I'm curious for you. I know that
in hindsight, you know, nobody was looking out for you,
obvioularly they were like, oh, we can use this.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I was hurry, more expendable than I think I ever
could have imagined, because I couldn't do that to someone else, right,
you know.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
I guess I'm curious for you. You know, what were
you aware of about the way your personal experience was
being amplified and really distorted at the time? And what
do you think you've been able to understand since? Because
this wasn't just a personal kerfuffle in to overlapping groups
(41:55):
of people. This was the power of an entire national landscape,
white House, Pentagon, all sorts of people who had all
sorts of goals that had nothing to do with you
or a wager either of them. Yeah, it's a big
machine to get chewed up in and spit out by. Like, yeah,
(42:17):
when you sit with it today, what do you think
are the biggest misconceptions? Is there anything you want to
correct or are you like, let's move on to the
next question, because like, I've done it and I'm good
because I in the weirdest way, I don't want to
ask you to relive things you've had to rehash forever,
and I want to give you the chance. So I
don't know what it is.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Let me say this, Sofia, I totally now that I
sit in the in the interviewer chair or the driver
of the conversation chair. Yeah, iugh, hundred percent understand that
the sort of the wanting to have a meaningful conversation
and also not wanting to ask someone to go through
the trauma. And I get exactly and I appreciate it,
(43:00):
and I you know, I think that there are there's
so many different aspects of what happened that my like
my mind reworked over years. You know, i'd say relensed.
(43:20):
Maybe in some ways, I've always been really careful and
really mindful to to sort of hold on to the
facts too. I was so mindful of not wanting to
be someone who like got on a bandwagon and totally
(43:41):
changed what my experience was because now it fits some
different narrative, and so it was, you know, and I
still work on piecing together. Okay, what how I took
so much responsibility at the time too, and that and
I remember the kind of grown ups in the room
(44:03):
being like, you are a child. I mean I was
twenty two. I was twenty four when it happened. When
twenty four when it became public. Yes, so we're just
not a child forster, but like a really young adult.
And I took on so much responsibility. And I felt
(44:24):
an enormous amount of guilt because if I had not,
there's obviously making different choices about behavior I engaged in.
But if I had also not confided in Linda Tripp,
this never would have become public.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
This is such an incredible conversation, and I'm thrilled to
let you know that while we are at the end
of part one, there is a part two with Monica Lewinski.
We'll discuss what her life would have been like if
this all didn't happen, who helped her with the scary parts,
and maybe find the silver lining of what good came
with this tremendous amount of hardship. I'm also going to
(45:00):
ask her her thoughts about the Epstein emails and victims.
We'll touch on what's wrong with telling people they have
to stand up to a bully to reclaim their story,
and we'll learn about what it means to both grieve
and thrive in tiny pockets. I'll see you for Part
two with Monica
Hosts And Creators
Sophia Bush
Bethany Joy Lenz
Robert Buckley
Hilarie Burton
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.