April 24, 2026 • 35 mins
Summer plans often come with a price tag, and right now, that price tag is getting bigger. This week on Everybody’s Business, Max and Stacey dig into the economics of all kinds of tickets.
First, the Strait of Hormuz has been opening and closing since the US attack on Iran in February, and the ripple effects are hitting the aviation industry especially hard. Economist Michelle Brouhard, head of policy and geopolitical risk at global trade intelligence firm Kpler, breaks down what a constrained oil supply means for jet fuel and flight prices. Then, a federal jury has ruled that Live Nation Entertainment monopolized the concert ticketing market. Bloomberg reporter Ashley Carman joins us to explain what the verdict means for Ticketmaster’s grip on the industry, and if fans will actually see relief at checkout. Plus, a tariff offer that you can’t refuse.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Stacey, it's the end of April and many people, myself included,
are starting to think about the summer plans. Oh yeah,
and those plans, no matter where you're going, what you're doing,
they often involve tickets buying tickets.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Yes, this is true. It's the thing that unites all
kinds of experiences, concert travel, sports events. Tickets. You have
to have a ticket to get through your turnstyle or
get onto the jet bridge. But right now there is
a lot going on with tickets of all kinds, and
we're going to be talking about that today.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah. First, of course, the first one I thought about
air travel. Those tickets. Plane tickets are getting more expensive,
and the culprit is jet fuel.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
You don't fight a war without jet fuel, right, So Europe,
not only are you worried about your summer vacation, but
you're also going to worried about like, does this make
Europe really vulnerable to Russia? What if there's no more
jet fuel to supply these European bases, then what happened?
While a war doesn't continue on because of jeff fuel,
it certainly can end because of jet fuel.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We're talking with economist Michelle Brohard about why this commodity
is going to affect your bottom line.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
And Max, there has been some kind of promising news
in the concert and sports ticket space, and now could
it be the end of the endless fees for concerts
and sports?
Speaker 5 (01:26):
And so it's moments like those where you start to
see behind the curtain. Like intuitively, when you're at that amphitheater,
you're probably like, oh, a thing that I used to bring,
now I pay for it cost me fifteen bucks. But
when you see it in the aggregate and you're like, whoa,
they're making that much.
Speaker 6 (01:42):
Money just on a laun chairs.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Reporter Ashley Carmen gives us the lowdown of the Live
Nation entertainment trial that marks a change in how we
pay for experiences.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
From Bloomberg BusinessWeek. This is Everybody's business. I'm Max Chafkin and.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I'm Stacey Bannocksmith today on the show Tickets, tariffs and
the changes coming to your wallet. Stay with us, Max.
The strait of horm Moves has opened and closed nearly
a dozen times since the US attack on Iran in February,
and with President Trump extending the ceasefire indefinitely until an
(02:24):
agreement between the US, Israel, and Iran can be reached.
I feel like this back and forth is going to
potentially be pushed out a lot longer.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Last week we heard from the head of the International
Energy Agency Fati b Roll. He had this to say
about the looming energy crisis that's caused by this shutdown.
In the straight of horror moves we.
Speaker 7 (02:44):
Are in Europe. We hear maybe six weeks or so
jetfield left. If we are not able to open the
Strait of Homos, if they refine it as a resulted
start to work, I can't tell you soon. We even
hear the news that some of the the flats from
(03:06):
City A to CITYB might be canceled as it is
out of leck of jet fuel.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Bad news for those going to City B.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Stacey it is, and bad news for anyone try to
get from any point A tot any point B if
it involves fuel. To help us sort through all of
this back and forth and what it might mean for
us and for the rest of the world, we have
economist Michelle Brohard, head of Policy and Geopolitical risk at Kepler.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Michelle, welcome, Thank you so much for having me. I'm
so happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Just to start out. Really generally, we're about two months
into this war with Iran. The straight upform moves has
mostly been closed during that time. Give us an overview
of the situation and what it means for the world
right now.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Well, this situation in the region is we're out of stalemate.
That's what it looks like. Yeah, the US is blockading
the straight, Iran is blockading the Straight, and so you're
kind of like at a stalemate. Bombs aren't flying anymore.
There might be like a few gunfires at boats and
boats getting seized, but for the most part, it looks
like at the moment we're at a stalemate. And so
(04:12):
at day fifty, which is where we're at, I think
maybe we might be on day forty nine or fifty.
At day fifty, we are at a point now where
we had enough oil on water if that got drawn down.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Oil on water meaning oil in the boats, like oil
oil on.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
The boats that were moving around the world have all
delivered all of their rise to the region. Oil in
transit has delivered all their supplies in the region. That
of course includes crude oil, but it includes jet fuel,
it includes gasoline, it includes diesel, and so the amount
of oil on water that we've seen drawn down is
pretty significant, which means that now the next phase is
(04:50):
to draw down on land inventories, and that happens very quickly.
So while on land inventories have been drawing gradually, they're
about to draw rapidly. So like the Ernest Hemingway quote,
how do you go bankruptcy starts gradually, then suddenly the
same thing's happening here in the oil market. It happened gradually,
and then it's gonna happen and then all ones.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, Michelle, just to zoom in on one of the
sort of fuels you brought up, jet fuel. We heard
a clip from Fati Burrol, who is the head of
the International Energy Agency, talking about Europe essentially running low
on jet fuel. Six weeks of jet fuel and we're
seeing flight cancelations. I have looftons I believe cancel flights.
(05:31):
Another airline canceling flight. Yeah, what is happening there? Because
six weeks of jet fuel doesn't sound that bad. If
you had six weeks of heating oil in your tank
at home, you wouldn't be especially worried. That's plenty of
time to fill up you know, get some more oil.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Yes, you're a pass about fifty days of cover. Let's
call it forty five days of cover. And it depends,
like in the med has a different number than the
northwest Europe, different than the Balkans, so like it's kind
of spread out. But in general, let's say they have
six weeks. That means, by the way, that you have
to draw down all the way to zero, which is
not possible. Right, tanks have to have twenty percent remaining,
(06:11):
So six weeks includes going down all the way down
to the bottom. So like imagine you're drinking a drink
with a straw. You don't get everything out of the drink,
right because there's always something remaining inside of the drink.
So the six weeks assumes that we draw all the
way down to zero, which is not possible.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
So it's not six weeks, so it's actually probably long
and a half weeks.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Weeks.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yeah, But just to get put that into perspective, isn't
the question really like how much does Europe usually run on?
It normally runs on fifty days cover, So it's not
like Europe looks bad at the moment if you looked
at it based on historical patterns. You would say, oh,
looks normal. What is not normal because it imports a
significant amount. There's no more imports coming in. There's a
(06:54):
few dribbles here and there from the United States, there's
a few dribbles here and there from other countries. Dan Godie,
for example, that the Nigerian refinery has been sending some
jet fuel. So you have it a little bit, but
what you don't have is the constant resupply. So while
fifty days of cover is normal, what isn't normal is
not receiving resupply. And so that's when I say it
(07:16):
happens gradually. Then suddenly, right the resupply that they had
been receiving has been happening. All of those boats have offloaded,
all of the oil and transit has offloaded. And so
now we're moving into the and suddenly part where they're
going to start drawing down dramatically. And I guess my
biggest concern is that obviously my vacations are going to
(07:37):
get canceled in summer is one of my biggest concerns.
But the other big concern that I have is what
about the military. You don't fight a war without jet fuel, right,
So Europe not only are you worried about your summer vacation,
which I'm going to Europe for my summer vacation, but
not only are you worried about your summer vacation, but
you're also kind of worried about like, wait, does this
(07:57):
make Europe really vulnerable to Russia? What if there's no
more jet fuel to supply these European bases, then what happens?
So like, while a war doesn't continue on because of
jet fuel, it certainly can end because of jet fuel.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So, Michelle, the US is the largest producer of oil
in the world, which still kind of blows my mind.
What kind of a position is the US in. Can't
we just make jet fuel? Jet fuel comes out of oil.
Can't we just produce our own jet fuel and ship
it out?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Yes, which we do. We export around two hundred and
seventy thousand barrels a day of jet fuel, maybe call
it three hundred thousand barrels a day if you want
to get like on the high end. Almost all of
it goes to Latin America and Europe. Now who's going
to get it first? This time? Europe? Because who can
pay the most to Europe?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Right?
Speaker 4 (08:44):
So it will go to Europe, but that doesn't meet
Europe's demands. So while Europe can get some jet fuel
from the US, it's not going to be able to
meet all of their demands. And Europe has their own
refining capacity, right, they can refine some and make their
own jet fuel, and they can change the yields of
their refineries that tiny bit to make more jet fuel.
(09:05):
But again, if they could have supplied their own jet
fuel before, they wouldn't be importing so much.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
To begun with, Michelle, is the jet fuel conversation that
we're having oil on the water shortages in Europe, maybe
even worse shortages in Asia. My sense is this is
one of many similar things that are happening. I mean,
there are diesel shortages in Asia right now. Is this
going to all happen together or are there areas of
special concern for instance, like with jet fuel where you're
(09:31):
talking about it affects Europe's military capacity or something like that.
Where are you most concerned as you look at first
the likelihood that this thing could go on for weeks
at least and then all the knock on effects from that.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Yeah, I guess my first concern as an American as
American military. Right, I have lots of concerns, but we're
going to talk about just in general, the oil, the
way that the oil market is constructed, right, But the
US military being able to meet their fuel needs is
obviously concern. There is no doubt in my mind that
Department of Defense surely took this into consideration before the
(10:09):
war started.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
If we're going to have this war and it's going
to last six months, we need to make sure we
have enough fuel for the work. Okay, okay, but I'm
going to give them the bin out that they have
some sort of contingency plans they can. Of course, By
the way, the US military, just to put this in perspective,
(10:33):
consumes around one hundred and fifty thousand barrels a day
of oil. We when we move into wartime, the demand
for US military jet fuel doubles. Now they're consuming three
hundred thousand barls a day of oil, not on US oil,
which means that when their supplies run dry, they need
to find a place to refuel. Right, they can refuel
(10:54):
on the European bases, like I said, but they've Europe's
got a problem, so it is possible stay back to
your point, the US is the largest largest exporter of
CRED plus products. That two hundred and seventy that three
hundred thousand barols a day that goes to Europe could
go to the US military, right like, it can pivot.
The administration can say, you know what, for national security reasons,
(11:16):
all of our jet fuel exports are going to European bases,
and that's it. So there are ways to move it around.
Of course, it's going to be bad for European vacationers. Okay,
So that's one thing I'm concerned about as an American
and as a person who would be concerned about the
US military. The second thing I'm concerned about are the
poor countries. The poor countries that need fuel for emergency vehicles,
(11:40):
the poor countries that need fuels for hospitals, the poor
countries that need fuel for harvest, for just their food.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Let's say the conflict goes for another fifty days and
oil supplies are constricted for another fifty days. What does
the world look like at that point.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Oh, honestly, I can't imagine what it looks like. It
certainly looks like an economic disaster in fifty days. Obviously,
Europe is out of JEF fuel. A lot of these
countries are out of all fuel, diesel fuel. There was
a when I think I told you this. I was
on BBC earlier today and the guy before me was like,
oil prices are going to go to three hundred dollars
(12:17):
a barrel. Okay, But here's the thing. It sounds dramatic, yes,
but here's the problem. That's not rational, right because the
rational thing to think is, Okay, we've lost seven million
barrels a day of oil, right, so we need to
lose seven million barrels a day of demand. Right. So
if we loft seven million barrels a day of supply,
(12:38):
we need to use lose seven million barrels a day
with that demand. What does the price have to go
to to lose seven million barrels a day of demand?
If it goes to three hundred you're talking about like
COVID level demands destruction. We don't need to lose twenty
million barrels a day of demand. We need to lose
seven and that's probably around one hundred and fifty one
hundred and seventy dollars a barrel, which is a more
like a It's terrible and it's going to be really
(13:00):
terminal for the poor countries. But it's not three hundred
dollars a barrel. So what we need to do is
crush demand. Over talking about like these crazy prices, right like, realistically,
we just need to lose demand.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
And before we let you go, Michelle, I wanted to ask,
what is the thing that you are watching most closely now?
Is there something that you're most concerned about right now?
Kind of in the situation that we're in.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
There are a few things. One jet fuel is like,
it's such a fascinating test case. There's nothing more fun
than like trying to figure out what's going to happen
to jet fuel and how this is going to solve itself, because.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
There's nothing more us than.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Okay, maybe my panel shuckle out for lunch is like
a little more fun, But I just think about it.
I'm like, it is so interesting. I remember when COVID,
during COVID oil prices, it was just like, what is
going to happen? You're sitting on the edge. It's like
watching a movie that you can't turn away from because
you can't wait to find out how it's going to end.
(14:04):
Because we don't know We've never seen anything like this.
Just like in COVID, we had no idea how that
was going to end, and just like this, we have
no idea, like economically, how this is going to end.
It's so exciting.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Michelle, thank you so much for talking with us.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
The most I've paid for an experience I think is
six hundred and forty six dollars for my partner and
I to see the Eras tour in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 8 (14:40):
The most I paid for a conto ticket was three
four hundred dollars and it was the Charlie XCX Stadium tour,
And to be honest, don't regret it.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Was it worth it.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
That is tricky.
Speaker 9 (14:55):
I am glad to have witnessed it, but I actually
didn't have a great time. We got seats that were
like sort of just parallel with the stage, so I
couldn't even really see the stage.
Speaker 10 (15:07):
I spent like three hundred dollars on tickets to see
Taylor Swift in New Orleans with my mom and my sisters,
and it was totally worth it. I had just gone
through a pretty horrible breakup and it was really cathartic
(15:28):
to hear her perform some songs that you know, she
has many breakup songs.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Did I enjoy it?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I think there were more enjoyable concerts.
Speaker 10 (15:37):
I had an amazing time, and I don't regret spending
that money.
Speaker 8 (15:40):
At the time, I said, this was the last time
I'll ever pay that much for a ticket. But it
was the best show and I got my whole life,
so one hundred percent worth it.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Okay, that was a few of you. Those are some
deep and personal conversations. We're hearing a few of you.
Everybody's business listeners sending in voice memos, sharing in the
prices you have paid for tickets. If you have more
to say on this, and I know I do, I
think Stacy will too, send us a voice memo or
send us an email. Everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. While
everybody was talking about concert ticket prices, Stacy, I think
(16:14):
it's it goes even wider than that. It's happening in sports,
it's happening in all sorts of live events.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, it's interesting that someone just used the word experience
as opposed to a concert, because I feel like I
always think of it as concert tickets. But it's more
than that.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Okay, so this is personal, but what is the most
you've ever paid Stacy for a live experience.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
For a live experience or a concert? Okay, a concert? Okay,
well this is it.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Gets embarrassing veryo.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
This is this is super embarrassing. I okay, I saw
the Ring Cycle of operas, the Wagner Ring Cycle of operas.
It's like fifty hours of opera. But I was like
determined to do it. It was a lot. It was
of course, all the tickets are like I.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Was in this blue she just put the number on mine.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
It was like probably north of eight hundred bucks.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Okay, this is like a humble brag because like most people.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Seeing German opera spending the thousand dollars to see like
fifty hours of German opera.
Speaker 6 (17:16):
Who does that?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I'll just tell you you're wearing hats with helmets, because
it's only fair. I think the most I've ever spent
on a per ticket basis was when I saw Hamilton
in like twenty ten or something, which.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Oh, that was like embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
That's like super two hundred and fifty bucks a ticket.
We are meandering, though, because Ashley Carmen is here. She
has been covered She covers podcasts, concerts, the music business,
audiobooks for Bloomberg. She has also been covering this really
interesting trial that just took place over the Live Nation
Ticketmaster combination. Ashley is here right now. How are you, Ashley?
Speaker 6 (17:52):
I'm good.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
I also feel like I should shout out our antitrust
team who has really been on this. I, because I
live in New York, have been pinch hitting going to
the courthouse when the trial was happening, so I did
spend quite a lot of time there and then also
covering these business all the time. So this concert issue,
beyond Live Nation, has just been something that's simmering.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, this goes way beyond this anti trust dispute, but
I think it makes sense to start there because it's
what just happened. The trial was also just fun. I
think you were in the courtroom. Just tell us a
little bit about what was at stake here with Live
Nation Ticketmaster the whole thing.
Speaker 6 (18:29):
Well, does that the scene?
Speaker 5 (18:32):
I think we can probably say most people in the US,
if not Earth, don't love Live Nation because it has
become the stand in for high ticket prices and the
reason why people are starting to pay hundreds, if not
at times, even thousands of dollars for tickets.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
So you have this.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
They sell most of the tickets.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
They own most of the they owned many of the
music venues. They represent many of the biggest artists, and
they sell all the time.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Right, So this was the whole thrust of the entire
case was that they it has now been found that
they have been ruled to be illegally monopolizing the concert
business by owning a promotion's arm which represents the artist
and helps them sketch out their tour and the prices
and all that, as well as being a ticket seller.
So they are able to put preferential treatment on where
(19:23):
these artists go and make sure they're using their ticketing
platform as well as.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
The promotions arm.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
But as far as the stakes, I think people from
a consumer perspective, we're really hoping this case would remedy
some of these high ticket prices and that maybe if
Live Nation is broken up, which we don't know if
that's going to happen, the judge has to decide now
that the jury has ruled that perhaps that will give
us a little relief and we will pay less for tickets.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, the thing A couple of things about this trial
that I found interesting. One is that the Department of Justice,
just before the jury rendered its verdict, the Department of
Justice settled with Live Nation, essentially allowing them to continue operating.
It was like a pretty I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, Ashley,
but my sense is it was a fairly modest settlement.
(20:09):
It certainly I think some like ten million bucks. The
potential damages here could reach into the hundreds of millions.
And then the other thing is there were just these
moments at the trial that I think were very cathartic
if you are somebody who has had the experience of
paying a lot of money for a concert, and in
particular around fees. So were there were these messages from
(20:30):
Live Nation executives talking to each other about how awesome
it was to charge parking fees and all of these
weird little fees that get tacked onto your event ticket. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
I mean one moment for me that I was in
the courthouse for that I just found super fascinating was
so part of this is that Live Nation builds and
operates amphatheaters, and I guess previously you could bring your
own lawn chair to the empatheater. And there was a
document that was shown displaying how once Live Nation banned
(21:03):
lawn chairs from the amphitheater. I forget the timeline on
which this happened. I think it was over the course
of a year. They made just millions of dollars on
their vaun chair down tolls. And so it's moments like
those where you start to see behind the curtain. Like intuitively,
when you're at that amphitheater, you're probably like, oh, a
thing that I used to bring, now I pay for
(21:23):
it cost me fifteen bucks. But when you see it
in the aggregate and you're like, whoa, they're making that
much money you just on the lawn chairs, And then
you're thinking about the parking and the food and the concessions,
and it goes from that.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I got to read some of these quotes from our
colleague leand Nyland story Lean Island. Of course, Bloomberg's an
I trust reporter. So first of all, I learned that
within Live Nation, at least some employees, and it's important
to say that Live Nation said these chats are not
representative of their policies. That's what they are getting court.
They actually try to get these excluded from the trial.
But I learned that Live Nation some Live Nation employees
(21:58):
refer to ancillary fees as ANSEL. And so there's a
quote that says, these people are so stupid, I almost
feel bad taking advantage of them. I gouge them on
ANSEL prices. In another exchange, this same executive bragged about
charging people to park fifty dollars to park in the grass,
sixty dollars for closer grass. Rob them blind, baby, I'm
(22:20):
reading from Leah's story, that's how we do it, so
and brutal.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
And the team that was at the courthouse the day
of the verdict did talk to the jury, a couple
members of the jury, and they said specifically the messages
they saw and how executives spoke did sway them on
landing that this was.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I mean, it also seems like, and maybe can talk
a little bit about this, that going to a concert
used to be quite a bit cheaper, or there were options,
there were cheap options, and now it seems like the
price of concerts maybe because of this has just really
especially since the pandemic gone.
Speaker 6 (23:00):
Yeah, there's a few things going on here.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
For one, I will say there are cheap concert tickets
if you want to see Taylor Swift, one of the
biggest artists in the world, Yeah, that's not going to
be cheap. But if you want to see a ban
from Brooklyn, you could still.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
Get a cheap concert ticket. So there's that.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
But the superstars, yes, those prices have skyrocketed.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
And part of the reason for that.
Speaker 5 (23:21):
Is because previously you used to support artists by buying
CDs vinyls, that was their main money source. Now with streaming,
while people do make a lot of money in streaming
has helped bring the industry back from the piracy era,
it's still not the same level of money that they
were making during the CD and vinyl era, and so
(23:42):
live has become a very significant part of how artists
make money.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
The other thing that's happening Ashley and I feel like
this has come up a lot in sports because there
is sort of a parallel conversation in sports. These ticket
fees are obviously a factor there as well. Ticketmaster sells
a lot of sports tickets, but you also have this
thing with pre sales where both for concerts, big concerts Beyonce,
and also now it's happening with World Cup tickets where
(24:10):
you have these sort of touted pre sales with extremely
high entry points, and like the big conversation in the
world of sports right now is around World Cup tickets,
where you know, to go see the US, even to
get bad seats at this World Cup, you're talking about
maybe one thousand dollars in the nosebleeds two thousand dollars
(24:30):
more as you get closer, and fans reacting to that
in a really it's sometimes a negative way, although of
course some people are.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Paying yeah, And I think by that same token, you
also have what happens in resale. So even if the
ticket in that first go is let's say, decently reasonable,
you now have this issue. And I think this is
partially just because tech has allowed it, and also the
regulations have allowed it where people can flip their tickets
(24:59):
and get ten x the price, and people are willing
to pay ten x the price, and that doesn't trickle
down to the artists.
Speaker 6 (25:07):
So that was That's what Live Nation would say, is
the issue.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
That's I think part of what's happening. And I have
this sense as somebody. I also buy a lot of
Mets tickets and I'm a season ticket holder or whatever,
and what I've noticed is it seems like because of
the secondary market, you have companies like Live Nation as
well as teams FIFA whoever, are trying to essentially claim
more of the sale price. Instead of charging a low
(25:32):
price and then allowing a secondary market seller to jacket up,
they just charge a high fee from the very beginning.
And you can see why that's attractive to Live Nation,
You could see it why it's attractive to an artist,
but for a fan it sucks. And you have these
Beyonce fans who are complaining that they paid hundreds of
dollars in a pre sale and then the secondary market
(25:52):
is they're actually going for substantially less. Same thing is
happening to a lot of sporting events. We've seen the
prices of World Cup tickets right now in the secondary
market actually below the sort of entry point price.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
Yeah, I mean, it's all supply and demand. So you
have this tension where naturally, if you're an artist and
you see that you sold your tickets for two hundred
bucks and now they're going for fifteen hundred bucks and
you don't get any of the fifteen hundred dollars. But actually,
maybe in some cases Live Nation is taking a fee
on the resale In addition to the primary you're like, wait, okay,
(26:24):
I'm underpricing myself. And some artists might be okay with
that because they view it as fan service, but other
artists are now leaning into this idea of the dynamic pricing,
which I think is what you're talking about, which is
where it's like Uber. Depending on the demand that the
platform is seeing, the prices go up or down. It
can change between sessions within minutes of each other. And
(26:44):
so that's added fuel to this fire of how much
does this actually cost? And then in the resale market,
if the demand wasn't actually there that they thought, because
these are typically professional operations that are doing the reselling,
they might drop the ticket because they're like, we want
to sell it, we don't want to hold on to this.
Where a professional operation that has hundreds of tickets.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
That we bought.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
So given all of this, are we going to see
prices for tickets go down? There is a big secondary market.
I think Live Nation maybe not entirely wrong. That's a
lot of where the higher ticket prices are coming. We
do have this slap on the wrist. All this embarrassing
stuff was exposed. Are thing is going to get better
for people who want to go to fifty hours of
(27:28):
German opera or see Taylor Swift.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
I am skeptical things will improve.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Let's just say other ticket platforms can now compete against
ticket Master. The issue is that those fees, in addition
to going to the ticketing platform, also go to the venue,
and the venue needs those fees to make money because
they don't get any of the face value. They might
get the concessions and maybe the parting parking depending on
(27:55):
the situation, but that's not enough to run a venue.
And a lot of these stadiums, for example, have sports
teams that only play certain parts of the year, and
so they need to be making concerts are very profitable.
They need to be making those fee dollars to pay
their rent or keep operations. So yeah, I think even
if you have a different ticketing platform in there, I
(28:16):
don't know that there's incentive to necessarily reduce the fees.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
So they just pay the fine and all goes back
to the same Well.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
They could theoretically get broken up. We don't know what
the judge is going to do, and then that would
actually be beneficial for other ticketing platforms that think that
they will be able to compete more fairly because Live
Nation isn't also doing the promotions and putting their own
promoted artists into their own venues, and the other venues
that don't use Ticketmaster will feel, oh, maybe now we
have a real shot at competing against Ticketmaster operated or
(28:47):
Ticketmaster ticketed venues and Live Nation operated venues.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
We talk all the time on this show about the
K shaped economy, like this idea that a greater than
ever share of the economic value is being created at
the very top ends talking about very expensive cars or
at restaurants, the fact that a lot of the revenue
is coming from like these crazy bottles of wine that
are being sold and then like nothing else. And this
(29:12):
feels like a particularly unfortunate example to me of the
K shaped economy. When you combine the use of dynamic
pricing these like crazy fees and the fact that like
music and sports are important parts of our culture and
like turning them over to this kind of weird bottle
(29:33):
service style approach to making money. It just feels gross.
And you know, as somebody who enjoys going to live
sports and stuff, it's really put me off. I've basically
just decided like, I'm not going to go to the
World Cup even though it's here. It's right here, and
I love sports and I want to spend the money,
but I'm not going to do it because I don't
want to deal with this. And I wonder at some
(29:54):
point whether that starts to become a factor or whether
you can just go on like this for US charging
hundreds or even thousands of dollars to see Taylor Swift
or whatever.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
Isn't this sort of like the housing market in New York.
The rens keep going up, but people keep paying it
so until someone puts their foot down and ticket prices
will drop. To your point, people have seen if they
don't buy the ticket until the last minute, or maybe
on the resale market, the actual show didn't sell as well.
Speaker 6 (30:22):
So now there's a lot of empty seats.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Or there's just a lot of tickets available, those ticket
prices do drop. So I think there are techniques that
people are developing, like I'm gonna wait till the day of.
I did that for a concert actually pretty recently, where
I waited till the day of and I got really
awesome seats for a lot.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
You like rolled the dice, What did you see.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
I took my husband's mom to see Mark Anthony.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Oh my gosh, and how was it?
Speaker 2 (30:47):
It was great?
Speaker 5 (30:47):
Okay, wait, we had awesome seats and I think I
paid maybe ninety bucks each and it was lovely.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Ashley Carmon, thanks for being here, Thanks for having me.
All right, Stacey, it's underrated story time. What do you
have for us?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I've got tariffs. Well, today it got real, or this
week it got real because the court struck the tariffs
down or some of them, and the Trump yes, exactly
some of them. And then the Trump administration was ordered
or the federal government was ordered to give the money
back to one hundred and six hundred and sixty billion
dollars like more than half a million US companies and
(31:28):
companies all over the world. But they all have to
go register for their refund. This is not this does
not happen automatically. So there is a website and a
portal that you have to sign up for and a
whole process. Every single time you imported anything, you have
to put in another complaint essentially, and to get your
money back. And in order to figure this portal out,
(31:51):
to navigate this brave new portal, you have to watch
a video. So the video dropped and like hundreds and
hundreds of thousands of businesses trying to get their money
back are now trying to tune into this video and
log onto this portal. And I watched the video. It's
kind of funny and I wanted to play it for
you for undraded, sorry, because I think you'll enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
All right, let's give a listen.
Speaker 11 (32:14):
Hello, and welcome to CVP's webinar for Electronic refund enrollment
in the Age Portal. Today, I'll guide you through CBP's
Electronic refund process. Center the related information from the email
and establish a pass, select the agreement checkbox, and then
select the sign up button. However, when you sign up
(32:36):
for your account, you will receive a verification token email
and must complete that step before moving forward. We are
now logged into the Age Portal as a trade account owner.
Thank you for watching.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Also, apparently the portal's been crashing. It's hard to use.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Everybody's where is the East Wing Ballroom of webinars? I'm
just asking, where is the you know, Trump Hotel of webinars?
Feel like they this is an administration that knows how
to do something flashy and they've really they.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Don't want people to get refunds.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
That's true, right, And then yeah, I mean that brings
us to Actually, it's funny that you had this as
your underrated because my underrated story is related tariffs. Yeah,
so you're talking about one thing that could happen, which
is businesses could go onto this website, they could watch
the webinar, they could get they could slog through this.
They could enter the tokens or whatever it is, request
their money back, maybe get the money back. Donald Trump
(33:30):
went on TV earlier this week and offered a different suggestion,
which is maybe they just don't ask for their money back.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Why wouldn't they ask for their money back?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Trump said that it would be quote brilliant if they
don't do that. And if they don't do that, I'll
remember them.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Oh so if they just like let the tariffs fees, that.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Trump say is saying, what if you just let us
keep the money? How about that? And there's a little
bit of a threat maybe in saying I don't know
if it's a threat or an inducement or something. If
you don't fill out this form, maybe Trump will be
a little nicer to you in the future, which has
I kind of can't decide if it's Godfather.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Leads a gun, take the canoli or It.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Also reminds me of like the dynamic when you like
split a bill with people and there's sort of a
weird dance that happens.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Like dude, I had an appetizer and you had like yeah,
but we'll see, I mean, we'll see if this works.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
There are a lot of company Stacey, you know this,
and there many of them are very small. It's hard
to imagine that Trump will remember every single one that
doesn't ask for their their tariff money back. What's the
thing in the Godfather like you got to ask on
the night of his daughter's You can ask for any
favor on.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
The come to me today on the day of my
daughter's wedding to ask me for a favor.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's the nay that you ask for your refund back.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Oh, you go to him on the day of his
daughter's wedding.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, because he can't turn it down, right, isn't that
the deal?
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yes? But I feel like he could still re Yeah,
he could still remember. He could still remember one day
and that day may not be soon. He's going to
come to you for a favor. This show is produced
by Jasmine JT. Green and Stacy Wong. Magnus Hendrickson is
(35:19):
our supervising producer, Sam Roga Chandle's engineering, and Dave Purcell factchecks.
Special thanks to Jeff Muscus, Julia Rubin, and Maria Ling.
If you have a minute, please rate and review the show.
It means a lot to us, And if you have
a story that should be our business, please send us
an email. Everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. That's everybody's with
an s at Bloomberg dot net.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
A voice Memo'll take your.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Voice memo, Yes, and you can send that right to
maxis Cell. Yeah, thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Stacey, it's the end of April and many people, myself included,
are starting to think about the summer plans. Oh yeah,
and those plans, no matter where you're going, what you're doing,
they often involve tickets buying tickets.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Yes, this is true. It's the thing that unites all
kinds of experiences, concert travel, sports events. Tickets. You have
to have a ticket to get through your turnstyle or
get onto the jet bridge. But right now there is
a lot going on with tickets of all kinds, and
we're going to be talking about that today.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah. First, of course, the first one I thought about
air travel. Those tickets. Plane tickets are getting more expensive,
and the culprit is jet fuel.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
You don't fight a war without jet fuel, right, So Europe,
not only are you worried about your summer vacation, but
you're also going to worried about like, does this make
Europe really vulnerable to Russia? What if there's no more
jet fuel to supply these European bases, then what happened?
While a war doesn't continue on because of jeff fuel,
it certainly can end because of jet fuel.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We're talking with economist Michelle Brohard about why this commodity
is going to affect your bottom line.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
And Max, there has been some kind of promising news
in the concert and sports ticket space, and now could
it be the end of the endless fees for concerts
and sports?
Speaker 5 (01:26):
And so it's moments like those where you start to
see behind the curtain. Like intuitively, when you're at that amphitheater,
you're probably like, oh, a thing that I used to bring,
now I pay for it cost me fifteen bucks. But
when you see it in the aggregate and you're like, whoa,
they're making that much.
Speaker 6 (01:42):
Money just on a laun chairs.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Reporter Ashley Carmen gives us the lowdown of the Live
Nation entertainment trial that marks a change in how we
pay for experiences.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
From Bloomberg BusinessWeek. This is Everybody's business. I'm Max Chafkin and.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I'm Stacey Bannocksmith today on the show Tickets, tariffs and
the changes coming to your wallet. Stay with us, Max.
The strait of horm Moves has opened and closed nearly
a dozen times since the US attack on Iran in February,
and with President Trump extending the ceasefire indefinitely until an
(02:24):
agreement between the US, Israel, and Iran can be reached.
I feel like this back and forth is going to
potentially be pushed out a lot longer.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Last week we heard from the head of the International
Energy Agency Fati b Roll. He had this to say
about the looming energy crisis that's caused by this shutdown.
In the straight of horror moves we.
Speaker 7 (02:44):
Are in Europe. We hear maybe six weeks or so
jetfield left. If we are not able to open the
Strait of Homos, if they refine it as a resulted
start to work, I can't tell you soon. We even
hear the news that some of the the flats from
(03:06):
City A to CITYB might be canceled as it is
out of leck of jet fuel.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Bad news for those going to City B.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Stacey it is, and bad news for anyone try to
get from any point A tot any point B if
it involves fuel. To help us sort through all of
this back and forth and what it might mean for
us and for the rest of the world, we have
economist Michelle Brohard, head of Policy and Geopolitical risk at Kepler.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Michelle, welcome, Thank you so much for having me. I'm
so happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Just to start out. Really generally, we're about two months
into this war with Iran. The straight upform moves has
mostly been closed during that time. Give us an overview
of the situation and what it means for the world
right now.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Well, this situation in the region is we're out of stalemate.
That's what it looks like. Yeah, the US is blockading
the straight, Iran is blockading the Straight, and so you're
kind of like at a stalemate. Bombs aren't flying anymore.
There might be like a few gunfires at boats and
boats getting seized, but for the most part, it looks
like at the moment we're at a stalemate. And so
(04:12):
at day fifty, which is where we're at, I think
maybe we might be on day forty nine or fifty.
At day fifty, we are at a point now where
we had enough oil on water if that got drawn down.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Oil on water meaning oil in the boats, like oil
oil on.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
The boats that were moving around the world have all
delivered all of their rise to the region. Oil in
transit has delivered all their supplies in the region. That
of course includes crude oil, but it includes jet fuel,
it includes gasoline, it includes diesel, and so the amount
of oil on water that we've seen drawn down is
pretty significant, which means that now the next phase is
(04:50):
to draw down on land inventories, and that happens very quickly.
So while on land inventories have been drawing gradually, they're
about to draw rapidly. So like the Ernest Hemingway quote,
how do you go bankruptcy starts gradually, then suddenly the
same thing's happening here in the oil market. It happened gradually,
and then it's gonna happen and then all ones.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, Michelle, just to zoom in on one of the
sort of fuels you brought up, jet fuel. We heard
a clip from Fati Burrol, who is the head of
the International Energy Agency, talking about Europe essentially running low
on jet fuel. Six weeks of jet fuel and we're
seeing flight cancelations. I have looftons I believe cancel flights.
(05:31):
Another airline canceling flight. Yeah, what is happening there? Because
six weeks of jet fuel doesn't sound that bad. If
you had six weeks of heating oil in your tank
at home, you wouldn't be especially worried. That's plenty of
time to fill up you know, get some more oil.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Yes, you're a pass about fifty days of cover. Let's
call it forty five days of cover. And it depends,
like in the med has a different number than the
northwest Europe, different than the Balkans, so like it's kind
of spread out. But in general, let's say they have
six weeks. That means, by the way, that you have
to draw down all the way to zero, which is
not possible. Right, tanks have to have twenty percent remaining,
(06:11):
So six weeks includes going down all the way down
to the bottom. So like imagine you're drinking a drink
with a straw. You don't get everything out of the drink,
right because there's always something remaining inside of the drink.
So the six weeks assumes that we draw all the
way down to zero, which is not possible.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
So it's not six weeks, so it's actually probably long
and a half weeks.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Weeks.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yeah, But just to get put that into perspective, isn't
the question really like how much does Europe usually run on?
It normally runs on fifty days cover, So it's not
like Europe looks bad at the moment if you looked
at it based on historical patterns. You would say, oh,
looks normal. What is not normal because it imports a
significant amount. There's no more imports coming in. There's a
(06:54):
few dribbles here and there from the United States, there's
a few dribbles here and there from other countries. Dan Godie,
for example, that the Nigerian refinery has been sending some
jet fuel. So you have it a little bit, but
what you don't have is the constant resupply. So while
fifty days of cover is normal, what isn't normal is
not receiving resupply. And so that's when I say it
(07:16):
happens gradually. Then suddenly, right the resupply that they had
been receiving has been happening. All of those boats have offloaded,
all of the oil and transit has offloaded. And so
now we're moving into the and suddenly part where they're
going to start drawing down dramatically. And I guess my
biggest concern is that obviously my vacations are going to
(07:37):
get canceled in summer is one of my biggest concerns.
But the other big concern that I have is what
about the military. You don't fight a war without jet fuel, right,
So Europe not only are you worried about your summer vacation,
which I'm going to Europe for my summer vacation, but
not only are you worried about your summer vacation, but
you're also kind of worried about like, wait, does this
(07:57):
make Europe really vulnerable to Russia? What if there's no
more jet fuel to supply these European bases, then what happens?
So like, while a war doesn't continue on because of
jet fuel, it certainly can end because of jet fuel.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So, Michelle, the US is the largest producer of oil
in the world, which still kind of blows my mind.
What kind of a position is the US in. Can't
we just make jet fuel? Jet fuel comes out of oil.
Can't we just produce our own jet fuel and ship
it out?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Yes, which we do. We export around two hundred and
seventy thousand barrels a day of jet fuel, maybe call
it three hundred thousand barrels a day if you want
to get like on the high end. Almost all of
it goes to Latin America and Europe. Now who's going
to get it first? This time? Europe? Because who can
pay the most to Europe?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Right?
Speaker 4 (08:44):
So it will go to Europe, but that doesn't meet
Europe's demands. So while Europe can get some jet fuel
from the US, it's not going to be able to
meet all of their demands. And Europe has their own
refining capacity, right, they can refine some and make their
own jet fuel, and they can change the yields of
their refineries that tiny bit to make more jet fuel.
(09:05):
But again, if they could have supplied their own jet
fuel before, they wouldn't be importing so much.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
To begun with, Michelle, is the jet fuel conversation that
we're having oil on the water shortages in Europe, maybe
even worse shortages in Asia. My sense is this is
one of many similar things that are happening. I mean,
there are diesel shortages in Asia right now. Is this
going to all happen together or are there areas of
special concern for instance, like with jet fuel where you're
(09:31):
talking about it affects Europe's military capacity or something like that.
Where are you most concerned as you look at first
the likelihood that this thing could go on for weeks
at least and then all the knock on effects from that.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Yeah, I guess my first concern as an American as
American military. Right, I have lots of concerns, but we're
going to talk about just in general, the oil, the
way that the oil market is constructed, right, But the
US military being able to meet their fuel needs is
obviously concern. There is no doubt in my mind that
Department of Defense surely took this into consideration before the
(10:09):
war started.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
If we're going to have this war and it's going
to last six months, we need to make sure we
have enough fuel for the work. Okay, okay, but I'm
going to give them the bin out that they have
some sort of contingency plans they can. Of course, By
the way, the US military, just to put this in perspective,
(10:33):
consumes around one hundred and fifty thousand barrels a day
of oil. We when we move into wartime, the demand
for US military jet fuel doubles. Now they're consuming three
hundred thousand barls a day of oil, not on US oil,
which means that when their supplies run dry, they need
to find a place to refuel. Right, they can refuel
(10:54):
on the European bases, like I said, but they've Europe's
got a problem, so it is possible stay back to
your point, the US is the largest largest exporter of
CRED plus products. That two hundred and seventy that three
hundred thousand barols a day that goes to Europe could
go to the US military, right like, it can pivot.
The administration can say, you know what, for national security reasons,
(11:16):
all of our jet fuel exports are going to European bases,
and that's it. So there are ways to move it around.
Of course, it's going to be bad for European vacationers. Okay,
So that's one thing I'm concerned about as an American
and as a person who would be concerned about the
US military. The second thing I'm concerned about are the
poor countries. The poor countries that need fuel for emergency vehicles,
(11:40):
the poor countries that need fuels for hospitals, the poor
countries that need fuel for harvest, for just their food.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Let's say the conflict goes for another fifty days and
oil supplies are constricted for another fifty days. What does
the world look like at that point.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Oh, honestly, I can't imagine what it looks like. It
certainly looks like an economic disaster in fifty days. Obviously,
Europe is out of JEF fuel. A lot of these
countries are out of all fuel, diesel fuel. There was
a when I think I told you this. I was
on BBC earlier today and the guy before me was like,
oil prices are going to go to three hundred dollars
(12:17):
a barrel. Okay, But here's the thing. It sounds dramatic, yes,
but here's the problem. That's not rational, right because the
rational thing to think is, Okay, we've lost seven million
barrels a day of oil, right, so we need to
lose seven million barrels a day of demand. Right. So
if we loft seven million barrels a day of supply,
(12:38):
we need to use lose seven million barrels a day
with that demand. What does the price have to go
to to lose seven million barrels a day of demand?
If it goes to three hundred you're talking about like
COVID level demands destruction. We don't need to lose twenty
million barrels a day of demand. We need to lose
seven and that's probably around one hundred and fifty one
hundred and seventy dollars a barrel, which is a more
like a It's terrible and it's going to be really
(13:00):
terminal for the poor countries. But it's not three hundred
dollars a barrel. So what we need to do is
crush demand. Over talking about like these crazy prices, right like, realistically,
we just need to lose demand.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
And before we let you go, Michelle, I wanted to ask,
what is the thing that you are watching most closely now?
Is there something that you're most concerned about right now?
Kind of in the situation that we're in.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
There are a few things. One jet fuel is like,
it's such a fascinating test case. There's nothing more fun
than like trying to figure out what's going to happen
to jet fuel and how this is going to solve itself, because.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
There's nothing more us than.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
Okay, maybe my panel shuckle out for lunch is like
a little more fun, But I just think about it.
I'm like, it is so interesting. I remember when COVID,
during COVID oil prices, it was just like, what is
going to happen? You're sitting on the edge. It's like
watching a movie that you can't turn away from because
you can't wait to find out how it's going to end.
(14:04):
Because we don't know We've never seen anything like this.
Just like in COVID, we had no idea how that
was going to end, and just like this, we have
no idea, like economically, how this is going to end.
It's so exciting.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Michelle, thank you so much for talking with us.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
The most I've paid for an experience I think is
six hundred and forty six dollars for my partner and
I to see the Eras tour in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 8 (14:40):
The most I paid for a conto ticket was three
four hundred dollars and it was the Charlie XCX Stadium tour,
And to be honest, don't regret it.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Was it worth it.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
That is tricky.
Speaker 9 (14:55):
I am glad to have witnessed it, but I actually
didn't have a great time. We got seats that were
like sort of just parallel with the stage, so I
couldn't even really see the stage.
Speaker 10 (15:07):
I spent like three hundred dollars on tickets to see
Taylor Swift in New Orleans with my mom and my sisters,
and it was totally worth it. I had just gone
through a pretty horrible breakup and it was really cathartic
(15:28):
to hear her perform some songs that you know, she
has many breakup songs.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Did I enjoy it?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I think there were more enjoyable concerts.
Speaker 10 (15:37):
I had an amazing time, and I don't regret spending
that money.
Speaker 8 (15:40):
At the time, I said, this was the last time
I'll ever pay that much for a ticket. But it
was the best show and I got my whole life,
so one hundred percent worth it.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Okay, that was a few of you. Those are some
deep and personal conversations. We're hearing a few of you.
Everybody's business listeners sending in voice memos, sharing in the
prices you have paid for tickets. If you have more
to say on this, and I know I do, I
think Stacy will too, send us a voice memo or
send us an email. Everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. While
everybody was talking about concert ticket prices, Stacy, I think
(16:14):
it's it goes even wider than that. It's happening in sports,
it's happening in all sorts of live events.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah, it's interesting that someone just used the word experience
as opposed to a concert, because I feel like I
always think of it as concert tickets. But it's more
than that.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Okay, so this is personal, but what is the most
you've ever paid Stacy for a live experience.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
For a live experience or a concert? Okay, a concert? Okay,
well this is it.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Gets embarrassing veryo.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
This is this is super embarrassing. I okay, I saw
the Ring Cycle of operas, the Wagner Ring Cycle of operas.
It's like fifty hours of opera. But I was like
determined to do it. It was a lot. It was
of course, all the tickets are like I.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Was in this blue she just put the number on mine.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
It was like probably north of eight hundred bucks.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Okay, this is like a humble brag because like most people.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Seeing German opera spending the thousand dollars to see like
fifty hours of German opera.
Speaker 6 (17:16):
Who does that?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I'll just tell you you're wearing hats with helmets, because
it's only fair. I think the most I've ever spent
on a per ticket basis was when I saw Hamilton
in like twenty ten or something, which.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Oh, that was like embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
That's like super two hundred and fifty bucks a ticket.
We are meandering, though, because Ashley Carmen is here. She
has been covered She covers podcasts, concerts, the music business,
audiobooks for Bloomberg. She has also been covering this really
interesting trial that just took place over the Live Nation
Ticketmaster combination. Ashley is here right now. How are you, Ashley?
Speaker 6 (17:52):
I'm good.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
I also feel like I should shout out our antitrust
team who has really been on this. I, because I
live in New York, have been pinch hitting going to
the courthouse when the trial was happening, so I did
spend quite a lot of time there and then also
covering these business all the time. So this concert issue,
beyond Live Nation, has just been something that's simmering.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, this goes way beyond this anti trust dispute, but
I think it makes sense to start there because it's
what just happened. The trial was also just fun. I
think you were in the courtroom. Just tell us a
little bit about what was at stake here with Live
Nation Ticketmaster the whole thing.
Speaker 6 (18:29):
Well, does that the scene?
Speaker 5 (18:32):
I think we can probably say most people in the US,
if not Earth, don't love Live Nation because it has
become the stand in for high ticket prices and the
reason why people are starting to pay hundreds, if not
at times, even thousands of dollars for tickets.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
So you have this.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
They sell most of the tickets.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
They own most of the they owned many of the
music venues. They represent many of the biggest artists, and
they sell all the time.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
Right, So this was the whole thrust of the entire
case was that they it has now been found that
they have been ruled to be illegally monopolizing the concert
business by owning a promotion's arm which represents the artist
and helps them sketch out their tour and the prices
and all that, as well as being a ticket seller.
So they are able to put preferential treatment on where
(19:23):
these artists go and make sure they're using their ticketing
platform as well as.
Speaker 6 (19:27):
The promotions arm.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
But as far as the stakes, I think people from
a consumer perspective, we're really hoping this case would remedy
some of these high ticket prices and that maybe if
Live Nation is broken up, which we don't know if
that's going to happen, the judge has to decide now
that the jury has ruled that perhaps that will give
us a little relief and we will pay less for tickets.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, the thing A couple of things about this trial
that I found interesting. One is that the Department of Justice,
just before the jury rendered its verdict, the Department of
Justice settled with Live Nation, essentially allowing them to continue operating.
It was like a pretty I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, Ashley,
but my sense is it was a fairly modest settlement.
(20:09):
It certainly I think some like ten million bucks. The
potential damages here could reach into the hundreds of millions.
And then the other thing is there were just these
moments at the trial that I think were very cathartic
if you are somebody who has had the experience of
paying a lot of money for a concert, and in
particular around fees. So were there were these messages from
(20:30):
Live Nation executives talking to each other about how awesome
it was to charge parking fees and all of these
weird little fees that get tacked onto your event ticket. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:42):
I mean one moment for me that I was in
the courthouse for that I just found super fascinating was
so part of this is that Live Nation builds and
operates amphatheaters, and I guess previously you could bring your
own lawn chair to the empatheater. And there was a
document that was shown displaying how once Live Nation banned
(21:03):
lawn chairs from the amphitheater. I forget the timeline on
which this happened. I think it was over the course
of a year. They made just millions of dollars on
their vaun chair down tolls. And so it's moments like
those where you start to see behind the curtain. Like intuitively,
when you're at that amphitheater, you're probably like, oh, a
thing that I used to bring, now I pay for
(21:23):
it cost me fifteen bucks. But when you see it
in the aggregate and you're like, whoa, they're making that
much money you just on the lawn chairs, And then
you're thinking about the parking and the food and the concessions,
and it goes from that.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
I got to read some of these quotes from our
colleague leand Nyland story Lean Island. Of course, Bloomberg's an
I trust reporter. So first of all, I learned that
within Live Nation, at least some employees, and it's important
to say that Live Nation said these chats are not
representative of their policies. That's what they are getting court.
They actually try to get these excluded from the trial.
But I learned that Live Nation some Live Nation employees
(21:58):
refer to ancillary fees as ANSEL. And so there's a
quote that says, these people are so stupid, I almost
feel bad taking advantage of them. I gouge them on
ANSEL prices. In another exchange, this same executive bragged about
charging people to park fifty dollars to park in the grass,
sixty dollars for closer grass. Rob them blind, baby, I'm
(22:20):
reading from Leah's story, that's how we do it, so
and brutal.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
And the team that was at the courthouse the day
of the verdict did talk to the jury, a couple
members of the jury, and they said specifically the messages
they saw and how executives spoke did sway them on
landing that this was.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I mean, it also seems like, and maybe can talk
a little bit about this, that going to a concert
used to be quite a bit cheaper, or there were options,
there were cheap options, and now it seems like the
price of concerts maybe because of this has just really
especially since the pandemic gone.
Speaker 6 (23:00):
Yeah, there's a few things going on here.
Speaker 5 (23:02):
For one, I will say there are cheap concert tickets
if you want to see Taylor Swift, one of the
biggest artists in the world, Yeah, that's not going to
be cheap. But if you want to see a ban
from Brooklyn, you could still.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
Get a cheap concert ticket. So there's that.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
But the superstars, yes, those prices have skyrocketed.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
And part of the reason for that.
Speaker 5 (23:21):
Is because previously you used to support artists by buying
CDs vinyls, that was their main money source. Now with streaming,
while people do make a lot of money in streaming
has helped bring the industry back from the piracy era,
it's still not the same level of money that they
were making during the CD and vinyl era, and so
(23:42):
live has become a very significant part of how artists
make money.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
The other thing that's happening Ashley and I feel like
this has come up a lot in sports because there
is sort of a parallel conversation in sports. These ticket
fees are obviously a factor there as well. Ticketmaster sells
a lot of sports tickets, but you also have this
thing with pre sales where both for concerts, big concerts Beyonce,
and also now it's happening with World Cup tickets where
(24:10):
you have these sort of touted pre sales with extremely
high entry points, and like the big conversation in the
world of sports right now is around World Cup tickets,
where you know, to go see the US, even to
get bad seats at this World Cup, you're talking about
maybe one thousand dollars in the nosebleeds two thousand dollars
(24:30):
more as you get closer, and fans reacting to that
in a really it's sometimes a negative way, although of
course some people are.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Paying yeah, And I think by that same token, you
also have what happens in resale. So even if the
ticket in that first go is let's say, decently reasonable,
you now have this issue. And I think this is
partially just because tech has allowed it, and also the
regulations have allowed it where people can flip their tickets
(24:59):
and get ten x the price, and people are willing
to pay ten x the price, and that doesn't trickle
down to the artists.
Speaker 6 (25:07):
So that was That's what Live Nation would say, is
the issue.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
That's I think part of what's happening. And I have
this sense as somebody. I also buy a lot of
Mets tickets and I'm a season ticket holder or whatever,
and what I've noticed is it seems like because of
the secondary market, you have companies like Live Nation as
well as teams FIFA whoever, are trying to essentially claim
more of the sale price. Instead of charging a low
(25:32):
price and then allowing a secondary market seller to jacket up,
they just charge a high fee from the very beginning.
And you can see why that's attractive to Live Nation,
You could see it why it's attractive to an artist,
but for a fan it sucks. And you have these
Beyonce fans who are complaining that they paid hundreds of
dollars in a pre sale and then the secondary market
(25:52):
is they're actually going for substantially less. Same thing is
happening to a lot of sporting events. We've seen the
prices of World Cup tickets right now in the secondary
market actually below the sort of entry point price.
Speaker 5 (26:03):
Yeah, I mean, it's all supply and demand. So you
have this tension where naturally, if you're an artist and
you see that you sold your tickets for two hundred
bucks and now they're going for fifteen hundred bucks and
you don't get any of the fifteen hundred dollars. But actually,
maybe in some cases Live Nation is taking a fee
on the resale In addition to the primary you're like, wait, okay,
(26:24):
I'm underpricing myself. And some artists might be okay with
that because they view it as fan service, but other
artists are now leaning into this idea of the dynamic pricing,
which I think is what you're talking about, which is
where it's like Uber. Depending on the demand that the
platform is seeing, the prices go up or down. It
can change between sessions within minutes of each other. And
(26:44):
so that's added fuel to this fire of how much
does this actually cost? And then in the resale market,
if the demand wasn't actually there that they thought, because
these are typically professional operations that are doing the reselling,
they might drop the ticket because they're like, we want
to sell it, we don't want to hold on to this.
Where a professional operation that has hundreds of tickets.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
That we bought.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
So given all of this, are we going to see
prices for tickets go down? There is a big secondary market.
I think Live Nation maybe not entirely wrong. That's a
lot of where the higher ticket prices are coming. We
do have this slap on the wrist. All this embarrassing
stuff was exposed. Are thing is going to get better
for people who want to go to fifty hours of
(27:28):
German opera or see Taylor Swift.
Speaker 6 (27:31):
I am skeptical things will improve.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Let's just say other ticket platforms can now compete against
ticket Master. The issue is that those fees, in addition
to going to the ticketing platform, also go to the venue,
and the venue needs those fees to make money because
they don't get any of the face value. They might
get the concessions and maybe the parting parking depending on
(27:55):
the situation, but that's not enough to run a venue.
And a lot of these stadiums, for example, have sports
teams that only play certain parts of the year, and
so they need to be making concerts are very profitable.
They need to be making those fee dollars to pay
their rent or keep operations. So yeah, I think even
if you have a different ticketing platform in there, I
(28:16):
don't know that there's incentive to necessarily reduce the fees.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
So they just pay the fine and all goes back
to the same Well.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
They could theoretically get broken up. We don't know what
the judge is going to do, and then that would
actually be beneficial for other ticketing platforms that think that
they will be able to compete more fairly because Live
Nation isn't also doing the promotions and putting their own
promoted artists into their own venues, and the other venues
that don't use Ticketmaster will feel, oh, maybe now we
have a real shot at competing against Ticketmaster operated or
(28:47):
Ticketmaster ticketed venues and Live Nation operated venues.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
We talk all the time on this show about the
K shaped economy, like this idea that a greater than
ever share of the economic value is being created at
the very top ends talking about very expensive cars or
at restaurants, the fact that a lot of the revenue
is coming from like these crazy bottles of wine that
are being sold and then like nothing else. And this
(29:12):
feels like a particularly unfortunate example to me of the
K shaped economy. When you combine the use of dynamic
pricing these like crazy fees and the fact that like
music and sports are important parts of our culture and
like turning them over to this kind of weird bottle
(29:33):
service style approach to making money. It just feels gross.
And you know, as somebody who enjoys going to live
sports and stuff, it's really put me off. I've basically
just decided like, I'm not going to go to the
World Cup even though it's here. It's right here, and
I love sports and I want to spend the money,
but I'm not going to do it because I don't
want to deal with this. And I wonder at some
(29:54):
point whether that starts to become a factor or whether
you can just go on like this for US charging
hundreds or even thousands of dollars to see Taylor Swift
or whatever.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
Isn't this sort of like the housing market in New York.
The rens keep going up, but people keep paying it
so until someone puts their foot down and ticket prices
will drop. To your point, people have seen if they
don't buy the ticket until the last minute, or maybe
on the resale market, the actual show didn't sell as well.
Speaker 6 (30:22):
So now there's a lot of empty seats.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Or there's just a lot of tickets available, those ticket
prices do drop. So I think there are techniques that
people are developing, like I'm gonna wait till the day of.
I did that for a concert actually pretty recently, where
I waited till the day of and I got really
awesome seats for a lot.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
You like rolled the dice, What did you see.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
I took my husband's mom to see Mark Anthony.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Oh my gosh, and how was it?
Speaker 2 (30:47):
It was great?
Speaker 5 (30:47):
Okay, wait, we had awesome seats and I think I
paid maybe ninety bucks each and it was lovely.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Ashley Carmon, thanks for being here, Thanks for having me.
All right, Stacey, it's underrated story time. What do you
have for us?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
I've got tariffs. Well, today it got real, or this
week it got real because the court struck the tariffs
down or some of them, and the Trump yes, exactly
some of them. And then the Trump administration was ordered
or the federal government was ordered to give the money
back to one hundred and six hundred and sixty billion
dollars like more than half a million US companies and
(31:28):
companies all over the world. But they all have to
go register for their refund. This is not this does
not happen automatically. So there is a website and a
portal that you have to sign up for and a
whole process. Every single time you imported anything, you have
to put in another complaint essentially, and to get your
money back. And in order to figure this portal out,
(31:51):
to navigate this brave new portal, you have to watch
a video. So the video dropped and like hundreds and
hundreds of thousands of businesses trying to get their money
back are now trying to tune into this video and
log onto this portal. And I watched the video. It's
kind of funny and I wanted to play it for
you for undraded, sorry, because I think you'll enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
All right, let's give a listen.
Speaker 11 (32:14):
Hello, and welcome to CVP's webinar for Electronic refund enrollment
in the Age Portal. Today, I'll guide you through CBP's
Electronic refund process. Center the related information from the email
and establish a pass, select the agreement checkbox, and then
select the sign up button. However, when you sign up
(32:36):
for your account, you will receive a verification token email
and must complete that step before moving forward. We are
now logged into the Age Portal as a trade account owner.
Thank you for watching.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Also, apparently the portal's been crashing. It's hard to use.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Everybody's where is the East Wing Ballroom of webinars? I'm
just asking, where is the you know, Trump Hotel of webinars?
Feel like they this is an administration that knows how
to do something flashy and they've really they.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Don't want people to get refunds.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
That's true, right, And then yeah, I mean that brings
us to Actually, it's funny that you had this as
your underrated because my underrated story is related tariffs. Yeah,
so you're talking about one thing that could happen, which
is businesses could go onto this website, they could watch
the webinar, they could get they could slog through this.
They could enter the tokens or whatever it is, request
their money back, maybe get the money back. Donald Trump
(33:30):
went on TV earlier this week and offered a different suggestion,
which is maybe they just don't ask for their money back.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Why wouldn't they ask for their money back?
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Trump said that it would be quote brilliant if they
don't do that. And if they don't do that, I'll
remember them.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
Oh so if they just like let the tariffs fees, that.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Trump say is saying, what if you just let us
keep the money? How about that? And there's a little
bit of a threat maybe in saying I don't know
if it's a threat or an inducement or something. If
you don't fill out this form, maybe Trump will be
a little nicer to you in the future, which has
I kind of can't decide if it's Godfather.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Leads a gun, take the canoli or It.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Also reminds me of like the dynamic when you like
split a bill with people and there's sort of a
weird dance that happens.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Like dude, I had an appetizer and you had like yeah,
but we'll see, I mean, we'll see if this works.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
There are a lot of company Stacey, you know this,
and there many of them are very small. It's hard
to imagine that Trump will remember every single one that
doesn't ask for their their tariff money back. What's the
thing in the Godfather like you got to ask on
the night of his daughter's You can ask for any
favor on.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
The come to me today on the day of my
daughter's wedding to ask me for a favor.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's the nay that you ask for your refund back.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Oh, you go to him on the day of his
daughter's wedding.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, because he can't turn it down, right, isn't that
the deal?
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yes? But I feel like he could still re Yeah,
he could still remember. He could still remember one day
and that day may not be soon. He's going to
come to you for a favor. This show is produced
by Jasmine JT. Green and Stacy Wong. Magnus Hendrickson is
(35:19):
our supervising producer, Sam Roga Chandle's engineering, and Dave Purcell factchecks.
Special thanks to Jeff Muscus, Julia Rubin, and Maria Ling.
If you have a minute, please rate and review the show.
It means a lot to us, And if you have
a story that should be our business, please send us
an email. Everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. That's everybody's with
an s at Bloomberg dot net.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
A voice Memo'll take your.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Voice memo, Yes, and you can send that right to
maxis Cell. Yeah, thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
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