February 16, 2023 • 32 mins
In 1982, Vincent Chin was brutally killed in a racially motivated attack in Detroit, Michigan. The murder led to a new human rights movement, highlighting the dangers of anti-Asian sentiment in America. We talk about this issue with Dr. Lok Siu, Cultural Anthropologist and Professor of Ethnic Studies at UC Berkeley.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rasha Paccuerero
and I'm Eyvet Gentilay. And today we're really diving into
a landmark murder case that surprisingly few people have heard about.
It's the case of Vincent Chin. Yeah, that's right, Evett.
Just a couple of years ago, you may recall that
(00:47):
there was a surge of anti Asian violence, including the
murder of multiple people at three different Atlanta, Georgia spas
that sparked outrage, of course, and a revive of an
Asian civil rights movement. But the roots of that movement
were laid with this very case, the case of Vincent Chin,
(01:10):
all the way back in nineteen eighty two. And on
today's show, we'll have a guest who will talk with
us about what made this case so groundbreaking. But first,
our producer Trevor is going to take us through today's case.
The twenty seven year old was beaten to death with
a baseball bat by two men who were fined three
(01:32):
thousand dollars and received no jail time.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
These two killers had received probation for killing a Chinese man.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I just couldn't believe that this had happened.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
After his terribly tragic murder, What ended up happening was
people felt like we need to become more politically important
and powerful, and that has occurred. And I think that
that's a beautiful legacy of a very tragic event.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Vincent Chin was a twenty seven year old Chinese American
man who was killed in a racially motivated attack in
nineteen eighty two. In June of that year, Vincent was
planning to get married. On the night of June nineteenth,
Vincent Chin and his friends were out celebrating for Vincent's
bachelor party in Detroit, Michigan. While at a local strip club,
(02:19):
they had an altercation with a man named Ronald Ebens.
Ebens was a forty two year old white man who
had worked at Chrysler Automotive for years. At the time, Ford,
GM and Chrysler all had headquarters in Detroit and were
in rapid decline. This was due to competition from carmakers
in Japan, Korea, and Germany, and during this time, scores
(02:43):
of Detroit autoworkers were being laid off, including Evans's nephew,
Michael Knits, and like many they blamed their layoffs on
competition from Asian countries. Ebans and Knits happened to be
at the same nightclub as Vincent Chinn that night. They
reportedly shouted expletives at him and persistently insulted him on
(03:04):
the basis of his heritage. The argument escalated and Vincent
and his friends eventually left the club, but Ebens followed
him to a McDonald's, where he and Knits attacked and
beat him to death. Ronald Ebens and Michael Knits were
charged with second degree murder and Evans was fired the
following year, and then, in a devastating blow to the
(03:26):
Asian American community, the Detroit ACLU and National Lawyer's Guild
came out saying that the killing of Vincent Chen did
not violate his civil rights, and disappointingly, government officials and
politicians agreed and in March of the next year, Knits
and Ebens successfully entered a plea bargain that brought charges
(03:47):
against them down to manslaughter. They received no jail time
and only three years probation, a three thousand dollars fine,
and seven hundred and eighty dollars in court fees. This
event sparked the formation of a new civil rights group.
They were called American Citizens for Justice or ACJ, and
they held a protest in May of that year, claiming
(04:10):
that Judge Charles Kaufman's decision was tantamount to giving out
quote a license to kill for three thousand dollars, provided
you have a steady job or are a student, and
the victim is Chinese end quote. Michael Nitz was acquitted
on both charges, but Ronald Ebens was found guilty of
one count and sentenced to twenty five years in prison,
(04:32):
but ebens conviction was overturned. Instead, Ronald Ebens was ordered
to pay Chin's family one point five million dollars at
a rate of two hundred dollars a month for two years,
but he never did and the family of Vincent Chen
has to this day never seen a dime. And so
who was Vincent Chen? And how does this story reflect
(04:54):
the ever present issue of anti Asian racism and violence
in America.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Welcome back. Vincent Chin is just one example of the
many Asian Americans who have faced racism and violence in
this country. The issue of anti Asian hate is one
that goes back hundreds of years and sadly still persists today.
Our guest today is one of the leading scholars and
voices speaking out against anti Asian hate and bias. Doctor
(05:26):
Locke Sue joins us. She's a cultural anthropologist and professor
of Ethnic studies at UC Berkeley. Doctor Sue, welcome to
Facing Evil.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here
and talk a little bit more about the issues of
anti Asian hate and violence.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Yes, thank you. We're so happy you're here because it's
a very very important topic and we want to get
right into it.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So, doctor Sue, can you tell us about the history
of this issue. When and how did anti Asian hate
first start to rear its head in America and how
severe has it been historically?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Well, you know, in the history of Asian Americans in
the US, anti Asian hate has been such a persistent
aspect of life, and I think you know, you see
these episodes emerging as early as the eighteen seventies. As
soon as the first Chinese immigrants arrived to the United States,
(06:27):
there were mass riots, over one hundred and fifty of
them across the country. And you're talking about you know,
communities whose homes were burnt down, who were forced to
leave their sites, and some had to go underground and
created these underground tunnels where they couldn't walk outside into
streets but actually had to you know, go underground quite
(06:51):
literally to move from place to place. And so, you know,
even at that moment in the eighteen seventies, you see
this extreme sort of violence against the Chinese workers that
was also followed, you know, by other attacks against South
Asian American immigrants. There were you know, Filipino workers that
(07:11):
were being attacked, you know, in the nineteen thirties, and
you know, of course, you have the moment of the
nineteen forties with the massive incarceration of Japanese Americans. That
didn't end, you know, in mid century, but we saw spikes,
you know, with the Vincent Chinn incident in the nineteen eighties,
and of course again he is one of the many
(07:34):
Asian Americans that were attacked and violently attacked in his case.
You know, it was such a egregious situation that the
community really mobilized against it. But we see this emerging again,
you know, with anti Muslim, anti Arab American profiling, you
know during nine to eleven and the attacks against you know,
(07:56):
women wearing hey jobs because of their culturally signifier, you
know that they bear and you know, again this is
this is just ongoing even to at present. You have
the uptick you know of anti Asian violence because of
the COVID event and the sparking of anti Asian racism,
(08:17):
you know during this moment, you know, by many members
in our society. And so you see over ten thousand
attacks have been recorded, and this is an underestimate in fact,
you know that these are self recording documentation of people's
experiences alongside the racial profiling of Chinese American Asian American scientists,
(08:40):
you know, who are targeted by the FBI and you
know whose lives are turned upside down with false accusations.
So these are the many different events across time, and
then the various sorts of activities that have been targeting
Asian Americans, you know, really kind of arising from the
(09:01):
anti Asian hate and anti Asian racism that is in
our country.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Doctor Sue, can you tell us what brought you to
the topic of anti Asian hate.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
I think most recently just seeing on media and hearing
all the stories of the attacks, especially against the elderly
in our population, the women of our population. I myself
have a mother who is eighty two years old, and
I fear for her life. She lives in San Francisco,
(09:36):
and San Francisco and Oakland are two in New York
are three cities that have the highest rates of attacks.
And I have two children of my own, I have sisters,
and I am scared of their safety, for their safety
and you know they're walking around trying to go get
(09:57):
groceries right taking the bus. That's a real concern. And those,
I think, those particular stories that I hear on the
news really struck home and really made me think about
my own family myself, and you know, the kinds of
dangers that they experience on an everyday basis, walking around
(10:22):
minding their own business, doing their own things, And that
is what was most heartbreaking for me, and it made
me think about the state of our country. You know,
certain people are not able to walk around feeling a
basic sense of safety. That they're always looking over their
(10:43):
shoulders and you know, thinking about am I next? You know,
is there someone behind me? And that's frightening. And I
think that has caused tremendous anxiety, you know, within our community,
and tremendous stress mental health issues are emerging.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
Can you tell us how capitalism and different types of
economic factors lend themselves to racism and violence. I mean,
it really feels like in many ways, Vincent's case is
wrapped up in the failings of capitalism.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
I think is absolutely connected. We see many of these
spikes and violence created by assumptions of jobs taking away
from people. Economies are down usually and where there is
a lot of antagonism between countries and nations. In the
case of Vincent Chen, he is Chinese American. But in
(11:56):
the period of the nineteen eighties, it was really around
the car industry, particularly of Japan's rise in the car
manufacturing industry, that in many ways created a situation where
there were such strong sentiments around faulting the Japanese as
being the culprit of taking away jobs from Americans. And actually,
(12:21):
you know, he is an American citizen. You know, Chinese,
he is Chinese American and is a citizen of the
United States. And this is where I think the racial
component really plays a role here that you know, just
because he is Chinese or Asian appearing presenting, he is
assumed to be a foreigner. And I think that there
(12:42):
is this idea of Asian Americans as foreigners that are
so steeped in our society that we don't consider them
as full citizens, as first class citizens in the United States,
but we immediately associate them with a foreign country. And therefore,
whenever there are political conflict or tensions going on, that
(13:04):
Asians are immediately associated with those countries, even though they
are often American born, American citizens, et cetera. And that
is really what we see happening here. That the economy
has a tremendous effect and because of the racialization of
Chinese and Asian Americans as foreigners, that it becomes a
(13:24):
real issue. I think it's important to note that our
immigration policies have always been set up to encourage a
certain kind of migration from certain places for certain reasons,
and this is absolutely true for Asian Americans. And this
(13:45):
is where the racial capitalism comes in when you think
of immigration expanding in order to increase a certain kind
of workforce. And so if you track this over time,
we see this happening, you know, with the railroad workers
that came to work as labor. And then you have
you know, even today you have the HB one visas,
(14:06):
and you know, the critical point was in nineteen sixty
five when they stopped the quota system and really changed
the immigration criteria that attracted people with education and skilled labor.
So you had this opening where then a group of
(14:26):
immigrants coming from everywhere, but especially Asia, who are highly
educated and who have skills to offer to the US.
And so you know, these are the ways in which
the immigration policies really kind of help to funnel certain
kinds of workers into the United States. And it's it's
very clear that at certain moments, you know why Asian
(14:49):
immigrants were recruited, you know, were allowed in through immigration,
such as the farm workers you know of the past,
and the railroad workers, the farm workers of the past,
and then now the tech workers you know of the present.
And this is how you see the convergence, you know,
of the economic imperatives of the country really kind of
(15:09):
moving forward with the support of immigration, and that's how
you structure sort of the racial capitalism actually is constructed
in a US, and that's how it's still unfolding.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I want to jump forward a little bit, doctor Seue,
So in the twenty first century, like you know, many
Americans today maybe think that, you know, anti Asian hate
or racism against Asian Americans is a thing of the past.
But as we all know, you know, it's reared its
ugly head lately, and especially in the last few years
(15:43):
when we saw the horrific SPA shootings that happened in Atlanta, Georgia.
Do you think that was a wake up call for
our country to start recognizing that racism is alive for
anti Asian Americans, Like, it's so heartbreaking.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Absolutely, I think for a while, and I think it's
still persistent today in American minds American psyches, that the
notion of Asian Americans as having achieved, you know, success,
the model minority stereotype is really at the forefront. It's
reinforced you know, in popular media, in news articles and
(16:22):
et cetera. But I think that that perception, it really
is a very strong stereotype and it doesn't represent the
realities of the diverse population of Asian Americans. You're talking
about twenty three million Asian Americans, and as a group,
they are the group with the widest income disparity of
(16:46):
any racial group in the United States, which means that, yes,
there are people doing really well economically among this group,
but there are people who are doing incredibly poorly, you know.
And you see this in education achievements, believe it or not,
but income levels, health equity. So this is where I
(17:06):
think the stereotype hides, you know, this large spectrum and
these realities you know, of people living sometimes you know,
barely above means, you know, on welfare, in housing projects,
and we don't see that, and once we get that
in our head, we seem to project it, you know,
onto all Asian Americans, and that is just not true.
(17:28):
And I think that with that, you know, being at
the forefront of people's minds, they don't think of Asian
Americans as experiencing any kind of structural racism, you know,
or cultural racism. And you know, there's so many studies
out there that show that Asian Americans hit a glass
ceiling or a bamboo ceiling, even in the professional life
(17:50):
that in fact, you know, there are many people who
are stuck, you know, in lower management that are not
able to rise on top. So across the whole spectrum,
you know, of the poor and even of the professional class,
there's a lot of discrimination that needs to be addressed.
It hasn't been because we haven't had that conversation. We
haven't had the opportunity to really check in and say,
(18:12):
you know, these things are really happening. Here are the
information to data that we've collected, and here are the experiences.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Wow, absolusolutely absolutely, doctor. So do you do you believe that,
you know, anti asient hate can be dissolved in America?
I mean, you just spoke on capitalism and how it's
dominating the core structure you know of this country. But
I guess what I want to say is is there
(18:40):
any way that you know, we can break this toxic cycle?
What can we do? What can we all do as
a society?
Speaker 4 (18:49):
I certainly hope. So, you know, I see a lot
of issues that we need to address in the country.
On the education level, our students are not taught this history,
along with many other groups' histories, indigenous peoples, African Americans,
LATINX populations. That's a key beginning in terms of transforming
(19:13):
that knowledge base of who belongs in the United States,
who are Americans, you know, broadly speaking, and you know,
what have they contributed, you know, to our country to
make it the you know, better and much more livable
and in fact much more just because of their being here.
(19:35):
There is on the level of cultural representations, you know,
how we are represented, whether we are represented you know,
in media, the kinds of skewed images that we might
have of certain populations that produce and continue and sustain
the discrimination against them, the racism against them. Those are
(19:58):
the things that we can correct, you know. And representation
in the workspace, you know, I think that that's a
key area where we do need leadership to represent the
people of this country. The leadership to represent you know,
who we are as a group as a country. You know,
I think that's that's critical to be in the boardroom
(20:19):
to make decisions that matter to our communities. Those aspects
are really really critical to achieving a more equitable, socially
just society and representative you know, of who we are
as a society. There are so many, so many arenas,
you know, I think we need to make sure that
(20:39):
the laws align with our goals and ideals, and I
think sort of we're chipping away slowly, you know. I
think that we need to just work at small fronts,
you know, in our daily lives as well as these
larger societal changes, and only through that can we hope
(20:59):
for true transformation in our country.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
That's absolutely beautiful, doctor Sue, like you're speaking to our
hearts right now, because representation truly matters. And just like
you have said, like small ways and big ways, right,
thank you for that. I think we all can help
to break that cycle. I would like to ask as well,
(21:42):
you know, kind of piggybacking on Vet's last question. Everything
you so eloquently answered. So, I know you've told us
the small ways of how to break the toxic cycle.
But in reference to Vincent Chin right, his killers sadly
never saw any jail time. There was no justice for
Vincent's family. I mean they were supposed to. The killers
(22:03):
were supposed to pay a substantial amount of money to
Vincent's family, and no one was held accountable. They didn't
pay them a dime. How do we change that? How
do we make people more accountable? Especially in a case
like that.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
I think that particular case involves us to rethink the
justice system. I think the law on anti hate laws
are really critical, but I think that's a starting point.
We need to enforce it, we need to recognize it.
I think that is the second point that we need
(22:39):
to absolutely work on as a social justice system. That
requires a certain knowledge around anti racism and around how
it is actually practiced, you know, how it is actually displayed,
and to have stricter laws around that and have a
social system that recognize that this is an anti hate
(23:01):
crime and be able to enforce it. It was murder, yes, absolutely,
I think that there is no way around it. There's
so many cases you know that is clear cut, and
yet we're not able to find justice, you know in
those occasions, Vincent Chin, I mean it was it was
so clear that it was racially motivated, that it was
(23:23):
a violent, unjustified attack that put him in a coma
and then killed him four days later. And you know,
with two people, one holding him down and the other
beating him with a baseball bat to a point where
he can never wake up. That is a serious, serious
(23:45):
crime and a racially motivated crime. Absolutely, and you know,
it accompanied racial slurs, It accompanied with comments around him
being Japanese, right again, a mis reckon and even that,
you know, I think that there's so much going on there.
Our system failed us, and we need to make sure
(24:08):
that that does not happen again for Asian Americans, for
anyone in this country, you know, for all populations, and
that is a crucial point that we need to get
across as a society.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
For our listeners. You know, we know that there are
small ways to improve the issue, you know, of Asian hate.
There are maybe changes that we can unintentionally perpetuate Asian stereotypes,
right that need to be eliminated. What can we do,
in your opinion, in big and small ways to change this?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
I think that's a great question for your listeners. I
think as individuals we can do a lot in terms
of our own self education. There are so many books
out there that we can pick up. And it is
absolutely true we don't have enough dialogue with one another.
(25:12):
We don't have enough understanding of our histories, of our
current experiences. And we can do that beginning with conversations
reaching out, you know, to others. If you see someone
you know, go ahead and have a conversation, break the ice,
and from there you build on smaller to larger conversations
(25:36):
to bigger item questions. But also you know, take time
to learn on our own right about our different histories,
because that is crucial, you know, I think to build empathy,
as you mentioned, we need to understand how we come together,
you know, as a fabric of woven together in this society,
(25:56):
as a mosaic, you know, and we are you know,
we are mosaic, you know, with many different strands of
history coming into this country, and we need to understand
how we have been in some ways not speaking to
each other, not learning this acknowledging that is the first
step and then beginning the process you know, of re
(26:18):
education and reaching out, you know, across to one another
to make those human connections. And I think you'd be
surprised at making those human connections, whether it is you know,
at the school, you know, when you pick up your children,
or at the workplace, or when you interact with someone
at a restaurant or a cafe. You will be amazed
(26:38):
at the kinds of you know, response and rapport and
and it's through those small intimate moments that grow into
bigger social relations, you know, with one another, and I
think that is it's that is itself really crucial. If
people don't feel like they have time to you know,
(26:59):
that's all right, right. There are lots of also websites
that are available to look up you know, little pithy
historical narratives, and you know, everyone learns incrementally. It's not
like we can sit down and like absorb every all
histories of the world, you know, and through one book.
That's not possible. But I think we do the small acts,
(27:22):
and the small acts build up, and that's crucial.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I love that, I mean.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
So beautifully said. Your words are just so powerful, and
we are so grateful to have you on the show,
to have your insight, to have your expertise, to have
your warmth and your kindness which radiates through the screen here.
So we have to do everything in our power to
speak out, share our voices, share our stories.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Amplify Asian voices and all marginalized people's voices.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Thank you, And you know, I think there are opportunities
for people to engage, you know, on there's a there's
a great organization that started chaperoning elders, you know, in Chinatown,
so they would walk them to their doctor's appointments, walk
them to the groceries at the grocery markets, you know,
(28:15):
and really kind of make sure that they're not alone.
And the simple act you know of just walking someone
has an amazing, amazing effect. And you know, those are
the again, the small acts that people can take up,
you know, to support Asian American community during this moment.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Oh my goodness, Well, thank you so much. You know,
doctor lock Su, you are just a gem, a gem,
and we appreciate you. We are going to say mahalo
nui loa from the bottom of our heart for having
this incredible conversation that all of our listeners need to
listen to. So again we thank you.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Thank you both so much much. This is such an
important topic and I so appreciate your commitment and dedication
to these issues.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
So thank you, Thank you so much, doctor Seu. The
modern movement for Asian American civil rights began with very
little support. That was during a time when anti Asian
American sentiment was particularly harsh, and legal experts weren't confident
(29:28):
that civil rights law could apply to a case involving
the beating death of an Asian American.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
But two people did speak up, and their names were
Helen Zia and Liza Chan. Zia was a writer and
activist who helped to form American Citizens for Justice, and
Chan was the lawyer who took on the criminal case
pro bono, getting evidence and testimonies.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
When these women started, there was no national civil rights
group or even a movement for Asian Americans. Not only
did their work advanced the fight for justice for Vincent Chin,
it laid the groundwork for a larger movement that continues
to grow today.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
That's right, and they started with nothing and ended up
with a movement that has touched millions.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
And now we would like to take a moment to
honor work like this that sheds light and an incredibly
dark time when things seem impossible, and goes on to
make a meaningful difference onward and upward.
Speaker 5 (30:29):
Emoa emua.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Well, that's our show for today. We'd love to hear
what you thought about today's discussion and if there's a
case you'd like us to.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
Cover, find us on social media or email us at
Facingevil Pod at Tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
And one small request, if you haven't already, please find
us on iTunes and give us a good rating and review.
If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.
Nill next time.
Speaker 6 (31:01):
Aloha.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(31:39):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at Facing Evil pod at
tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(32:03):
to your favorite shows.
You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and
Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast
are solely those of the individuals participating in the show
and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.
This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable
for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rasha Paccuerero
and I'm Eyvet Gentilay. And today we're really diving into
a landmark murder case that surprisingly few people have heard about.
It's the case of Vincent Chin. Yeah, that's right, Evett.
Just a couple of years ago, you may recall that
(00:47):
there was a surge of anti Asian violence, including the
murder of multiple people at three different Atlanta, Georgia spas
that sparked outrage, of course, and a revive of an
Asian civil rights movement. But the roots of that movement
were laid with this very case, the case of Vincent Chin,
(01:10):
all the way back in nineteen eighty two. And on
today's show, we'll have a guest who will talk with
us about what made this case so groundbreaking. But first,
our producer Trevor is going to take us through today's case.
The twenty seven year old was beaten to death with
a baseball bat by two men who were fined three
(01:32):
thousand dollars and received no jail time.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
These two killers had received probation for killing a Chinese man.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I just couldn't believe that this had happened.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
After his terribly tragic murder, What ended up happening was
people felt like we need to become more politically important
and powerful, and that has occurred. And I think that
that's a beautiful legacy of a very tragic event.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Vincent Chin was a twenty seven year old Chinese American
man who was killed in a racially motivated attack in
nineteen eighty two. In June of that year, Vincent was
planning to get married. On the night of June nineteenth,
Vincent Chin and his friends were out celebrating for Vincent's
bachelor party in Detroit, Michigan. While at a local strip club,
(02:19):
they had an altercation with a man named Ronald Ebens.
Ebens was a forty two year old white man who
had worked at Chrysler Automotive for years. At the time, Ford,
GM and Chrysler all had headquarters in Detroit and were
in rapid decline. This was due to competition from carmakers
in Japan, Korea, and Germany, and during this time, scores
(02:43):
of Detroit autoworkers were being laid off, including Evans's nephew,
Michael Knits, and like many they blamed their layoffs on
competition from Asian countries. Ebans and Knits happened to be
at the same nightclub as Vincent Chinn that night. They
reportedly shouted expletives at him and persistently insulted him on
(03:04):
the basis of his heritage. The argument escalated and Vincent
and his friends eventually left the club, but Ebens followed
him to a McDonald's, where he and Knits attacked and
beat him to death. Ronald Ebens and Michael Knits were
charged with second degree murder and Evans was fired the
following year, and then, in a devastating blow to the
(03:26):
Asian American community, the Detroit ACLU and National Lawyer's Guild
came out saying that the killing of Vincent Chen did
not violate his civil rights, and disappointingly, government officials and
politicians agreed and in March of the next year, Knits
and Ebens successfully entered a plea bargain that brought charges
(03:47):
against them down to manslaughter. They received no jail time
and only three years probation, a three thousand dollars fine,
and seven hundred and eighty dollars in court fees. This
event sparked the formation of a new civil rights group.
They were called American Citizens for Justice or ACJ, and
they held a protest in May of that year, claiming
(04:10):
that Judge Charles Kaufman's decision was tantamount to giving out
quote a license to kill for three thousand dollars, provided
you have a steady job or are a student, and
the victim is Chinese end quote. Michael Nitz was acquitted
on both charges, but Ronald Ebens was found guilty of
one count and sentenced to twenty five years in prison,
(04:32):
but ebens conviction was overturned. Instead, Ronald Ebens was ordered
to pay Chin's family one point five million dollars at
a rate of two hundred dollars a month for two years,
but he never did and the family of Vincent Chen
has to this day never seen a dime. And so
who was Vincent Chen? And how does this story reflect
(04:54):
the ever present issue of anti Asian racism and violence
in America.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Welcome back. Vincent Chin is just one example of the
many Asian Americans who have faced racism and violence in
this country. The issue of anti Asian hate is one
that goes back hundreds of years and sadly still persists today.
Our guest today is one of the leading scholars and
voices speaking out against anti Asian hate and bias. Doctor
(05:26):
Locke Sue joins us. She's a cultural anthropologist and professor
of Ethnic studies at UC Berkeley. Doctor Sue, welcome to
Facing Evil.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here
and talk a little bit more about the issues of
anti Asian hate and violence.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Yes, thank you. We're so happy you're here because it's
a very very important topic and we want to get
right into it.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So, doctor Sue, can you tell us about the history
of this issue. When and how did anti Asian hate
first start to rear its head in America and how
severe has it been historically?
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Well, you know, in the history of Asian Americans in
the US, anti Asian hate has been such a persistent
aspect of life, and I think you know, you see
these episodes emerging as early as the eighteen seventies. As
soon as the first Chinese immigrants arrived to the United States,
(06:27):
there were mass riots, over one hundred and fifty of
them across the country. And you're talking about you know,
communities whose homes were burnt down, who were forced to
leave their sites, and some had to go underground and
created these underground tunnels where they couldn't walk outside into
streets but actually had to you know, go underground quite
(06:51):
literally to move from place to place. And so, you know,
even at that moment in the eighteen seventies, you see
this extreme sort of violence against the Chinese workers that
was also followed, you know, by other attacks against South
Asian American immigrants. There were you know, Filipino workers that
(07:11):
were being attacked, you know, in the nineteen thirties, and
you know, of course, you have the moment of the
nineteen forties with the massive incarceration of Japanese Americans. That
didn't end, you know, in mid century, but we saw spikes,
you know, with the Vincent Chinn incident in the nineteen eighties,
and of course again he is one of the many
(07:34):
Asian Americans that were attacked and violently attacked in his case.
You know, it was such a egregious situation that the
community really mobilized against it. But we see this emerging again,
you know, with anti Muslim, anti Arab American profiling, you
know during nine to eleven and the attacks against you know,
(07:56):
women wearing hey jobs because of their culturally signifier, you
know that they bear and you know, again this is
this is just ongoing even to at present. You have
the uptick you know of anti Asian violence because of
the COVID event and the sparking of anti Asian racism,
(08:17):
you know during this moment, you know, by many members
in our society. And so you see over ten thousand
attacks have been recorded, and this is an underestimate in fact,
you know that these are self recording documentation of people's
experiences alongside the racial profiling of Chinese American Asian American scientists,
(08:40):
you know, who are targeted by the FBI and you
know whose lives are turned upside down with false accusations.
So these are the many different events across time, and
then the various sorts of activities that have been targeting
Asian Americans, you know, really kind of arising from the
(09:01):
anti Asian hate and anti Asian racism that is in
our country.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Doctor Sue, can you tell us what brought you to
the topic of anti Asian hate.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
I think most recently just seeing on media and hearing
all the stories of the attacks, especially against the elderly
in our population, the women of our population. I myself
have a mother who is eighty two years old, and
I fear for her life. She lives in San Francisco,
(09:36):
and San Francisco and Oakland are two in New York
are three cities that have the highest rates of attacks.
And I have two children of my own, I have sisters,
and I am scared of their safety, for their safety
and you know they're walking around trying to go get
(09:57):
groceries right taking the bus. That's a real concern. And those,
I think, those particular stories that I hear on the
news really struck home and really made me think about
my own family myself, and you know, the kinds of
dangers that they experience on an everyday basis, walking around
(10:22):
minding their own business, doing their own things, And that
is what was most heartbreaking for me, and it made
me think about the state of our country. You know,
certain people are not able to walk around feeling a
basic sense of safety. That they're always looking over their
(10:43):
shoulders and you know, thinking about am I next? You know,
is there someone behind me? And that's frightening. And I
think that has caused tremendous anxiety, you know, within our community,
and tremendous stress mental health issues are emerging.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
Can you tell us how capitalism and different types of
economic factors lend themselves to racism and violence. I mean,
it really feels like in many ways, Vincent's case is
wrapped up in the failings of capitalism.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
I think is absolutely connected. We see many of these
spikes and violence created by assumptions of jobs taking away
from people. Economies are down usually and where there is
a lot of antagonism between countries and nations. In the
case of Vincent Chen, he is Chinese American. But in
(11:56):
the period of the nineteen eighties, it was really around
the car industry, particularly of Japan's rise in the car
manufacturing industry, that in many ways created a situation where
there were such strong sentiments around faulting the Japanese as
being the culprit of taking away jobs from Americans. And actually,
(12:21):
you know, he is an American citizen. You know, Chinese,
he is Chinese American and is a citizen of the
United States. And this is where I think the racial
component really plays a role here that you know, just
because he is Chinese or Asian appearing presenting, he is
assumed to be a foreigner. And I think that there
(12:42):
is this idea of Asian Americans as foreigners that are
so steeped in our society that we don't consider them
as full citizens, as first class citizens in the United States,
but we immediately associate them with a foreign country. And therefore,
whenever there are political conflict or tensions going on, that
(13:04):
Asians are immediately associated with those countries, even though they
are often American born, American citizens, et cetera. And that
is really what we see happening here. That the economy
has a tremendous effect and because of the racialization of
Chinese and Asian Americans as foreigners, that it becomes a
(13:24):
real issue. I think it's important to note that our
immigration policies have always been set up to encourage a
certain kind of migration from certain places for certain reasons,
and this is absolutely true for Asian Americans. And this
(13:45):
is where the racial capitalism comes in when you think
of immigration expanding in order to increase a certain kind
of workforce. And so if you track this over time,
we see this happening, you know, with the railroad workers
that came to work as labor. And then you have
you know, even today you have the HB one visas,
(14:06):
and you know, the critical point was in nineteen sixty
five when they stopped the quota system and really changed
the immigration criteria that attracted people with education and skilled labor.
So you had this opening where then a group of
(14:26):
immigrants coming from everywhere, but especially Asia, who are highly
educated and who have skills to offer to the US.
And so you know, these are the ways in which
the immigration policies really kind of help to funnel certain
kinds of workers into the United States. And it's it's
very clear that at certain moments, you know why Asian
(14:49):
immigrants were recruited, you know, were allowed in through immigration,
such as the farm workers you know of the past,
and the railroad workers, the farm workers of the past,
and then now the tech workers you know of the present.
And this is how you see the convergence, you know,
of the economic imperatives of the country really kind of
(15:09):
moving forward with the support of immigration, and that's how
you structure sort of the racial capitalism actually is constructed
in a US, and that's how it's still unfolding.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I want to jump forward a little bit, doctor Seue,
So in the twenty first century, like you know, many
Americans today maybe think that, you know, anti Asian hate
or racism against Asian Americans is a thing of the past.
But as we all know, you know, it's reared its
ugly head lately, and especially in the last few years
(15:43):
when we saw the horrific SPA shootings that happened in Atlanta, Georgia.
Do you think that was a wake up call for
our country to start recognizing that racism is alive for
anti Asian Americans, Like, it's so heartbreaking.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Absolutely, I think for a while, and I think it's
still persistent today in American minds American psyches, that the
notion of Asian Americans as having achieved, you know, success,
the model minority stereotype is really at the forefront. It's
reinforced you know, in popular media, in news articles and
(16:22):
et cetera. But I think that that perception, it really
is a very strong stereotype and it doesn't represent the
realities of the diverse population of Asian Americans. You're talking
about twenty three million Asian Americans, and as a group,
they are the group with the widest income disparity of
(16:46):
any racial group in the United States, which means that, yes,
there are people doing really well economically among this group,
but there are people who are doing incredibly poorly, you know.
And you see this in education achievements, believe it or not,
but income levels, health equity. So this is where I
(17:06):
think the stereotype hides, you know, this large spectrum and
these realities you know, of people living sometimes you know,
barely above means, you know, on welfare, in housing projects,
and we don't see that, and once we get that
in our head, we seem to project it, you know,
onto all Asian Americans, and that is just not true.
(17:28):
And I think that with that, you know, being at
the forefront of people's minds, they don't think of Asian
Americans as experiencing any kind of structural racism, you know,
or cultural racism. And you know, there's so many studies
out there that show that Asian Americans hit a glass
ceiling or a bamboo ceiling, even in the professional life
(17:50):
that in fact, you know, there are many people who
are stuck, you know, in lower management that are not
able to rise on top. So across the whole spectrum,
you know, of the poor and even of the professional class,
there's a lot of discrimination that needs to be addressed.
It hasn't been because we haven't had that conversation. We
haven't had the opportunity to really check in and say,
(18:12):
you know, these things are really happening. Here are the
information to data that we've collected, and here are the experiences.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Wow, absolusolutely absolutely, doctor. So do you do you believe that,
you know, anti asient hate can be dissolved in America?
I mean, you just spoke on capitalism and how it's
dominating the core structure you know of this country. But
I guess what I want to say is is there
(18:40):
any way that you know, we can break this toxic cycle?
What can we do? What can we all do as
a society?
Speaker 4 (18:49):
I certainly hope. So, you know, I see a lot
of issues that we need to address in the country.
On the education level, our students are not taught this history,
along with many other groups' histories, indigenous peoples, African Americans,
LATINX populations. That's a key beginning in terms of transforming
(19:13):
that knowledge base of who belongs in the United States,
who are Americans, you know, broadly speaking, and you know,
what have they contributed, you know, to our country to
make it the you know, better and much more livable
and in fact much more just because of their being here.
(19:35):
There is on the level of cultural representations, you know,
how we are represented, whether we are represented you know,
in media, the kinds of skewed images that we might
have of certain populations that produce and continue and sustain
the discrimination against them, the racism against them. Those are
(19:58):
the things that we can correct, you know. And representation
in the workspace, you know, I think that that's a
key area where we do need leadership to represent the
people of this country. The leadership to represent you know,
who we are as a group as a country. You know,
I think that's that's critical to be in the boardroom
(20:19):
to make decisions that matter to our communities. Those aspects
are really really critical to achieving a more equitable, socially
just society and representative you know, of who we are
as a society. There are so many, so many arenas,
you know, I think we need to make sure that
(20:39):
the laws align with our goals and ideals, and I
think sort of we're chipping away slowly, you know. I
think that we need to just work at small fronts,
you know, in our daily lives as well as these
larger societal changes, and only through that can we hope
(20:59):
for true transformation in our country.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
That's absolutely beautiful, doctor Sue, like you're speaking to our
hearts right now, because representation truly matters. And just like
you have said, like small ways and big ways, right,
thank you for that. I think we all can help
to break that cycle. I would like to ask as well,
(21:42):
you know, kind of piggybacking on Vet's last question. Everything
you so eloquently answered. So, I know you've told us
the small ways of how to break the toxic cycle.
But in reference to Vincent Chin right, his killers sadly
never saw any jail time. There was no justice for
Vincent's family. I mean they were supposed to. The killers
(22:03):
were supposed to pay a substantial amount of money to
Vincent's family, and no one was held accountable. They didn't
pay them a dime. How do we change that? How
do we make people more accountable? Especially in a case
like that.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
I think that particular case involves us to rethink the
justice system. I think the law on anti hate laws
are really critical, but I think that's a starting point.
We need to enforce it, we need to recognize it.
I think that is the second point that we need
(22:39):
to absolutely work on as a social justice system. That
requires a certain knowledge around anti racism and around how
it is actually practiced, you know, how it is actually displayed,
and to have stricter laws around that and have a
social system that recognize that this is an anti hate
(23:01):
crime and be able to enforce it. It was murder, yes, absolutely,
I think that there is no way around it. There's
so many cases you know that is clear cut, and
yet we're not able to find justice, you know in
those occasions, Vincent Chin, I mean it was it was
so clear that it was racially motivated, that it was
(23:23):
a violent, unjustified attack that put him in a coma
and then killed him four days later. And you know,
with two people, one holding him down and the other
beating him with a baseball bat to a point where
he can never wake up. That is a serious, serious
(23:45):
crime and a racially motivated crime. Absolutely, and you know,
it accompanied racial slurs, It accompanied with comments around him
being Japanese, right again, a mis reckon and even that,
you know, I think that there's so much going on there.
Our system failed us, and we need to make sure
(24:08):
that that does not happen again for Asian Americans, for
anyone in this country, you know, for all populations, and
that is a crucial point that we need to get
across as a society.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
For our listeners. You know, we know that there are
small ways to improve the issue, you know, of Asian hate.
There are maybe changes that we can unintentionally perpetuate Asian stereotypes,
right that need to be eliminated. What can we do,
in your opinion, in big and small ways to change this?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
I think that's a great question for your listeners. I
think as individuals we can do a lot in terms
of our own self education. There are so many books
out there that we can pick up. And it is
absolutely true we don't have enough dialogue with one another.
(25:12):
We don't have enough understanding of our histories, of our
current experiences. And we can do that beginning with conversations
reaching out, you know, to others. If you see someone
you know, go ahead and have a conversation, break the ice,
and from there you build on smaller to larger conversations
(25:36):
to bigger item questions. But also you know, take time
to learn on our own right about our different histories,
because that is crucial, you know, I think to build empathy,
as you mentioned, we need to understand how we come together,
you know, as a fabric of woven together in this society,
(25:56):
as a mosaic, you know, and we are you know,
we are mosaic, you know, with many different strands of
history coming into this country, and we need to understand
how we have been in some ways not speaking to
each other, not learning this acknowledging that is the first
step and then beginning the process you know, of re
(26:18):
education and reaching out, you know, across to one another
to make those human connections. And I think you'd be
surprised at making those human connections, whether it is you know,
at the school, you know, when you pick up your children,
or at the workplace, or when you interact with someone
at a restaurant or a cafe. You will be amazed
(26:38):
at the kinds of you know, response and rapport and
and it's through those small intimate moments that grow into
bigger social relations, you know, with one another, and I
think that is it's that is itself really crucial. If
people don't feel like they have time to you know,
(26:59):
that's all right, right. There are lots of also websites
that are available to look up you know, little pithy
historical narratives, and you know, everyone learns incrementally. It's not
like we can sit down and like absorb every all
histories of the world, you know, and through one book.
That's not possible. But I think we do the small acts,
(27:22):
and the small acts build up, and that's crucial.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I love that, I mean.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
So beautifully said. Your words are just so powerful, and
we are so grateful to have you on the show,
to have your insight, to have your expertise, to have
your warmth and your kindness which radiates through the screen here.
So we have to do everything in our power to
speak out, share our voices, share our stories.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Amplify Asian voices and all marginalized people's voices.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Thank you, And you know, I think there are opportunities
for people to engage, you know, on there's a there's
a great organization that started chaperoning elders, you know, in Chinatown,
so they would walk them to their doctor's appointments, walk
them to the groceries at the grocery markets, you know,
(28:15):
and really kind of make sure that they're not alone.
And the simple act you know of just walking someone
has an amazing, amazing effect. And you know, those are
the again, the small acts that people can take up,
you know, to support Asian American community during this moment.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Oh my goodness, Well, thank you so much. You know,
doctor lock Su, you are just a gem, a gem,
and we appreciate you. We are going to say mahalo
nui loa from the bottom of our heart for having
this incredible conversation that all of our listeners need to
listen to. So again we thank you.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Thank you both so much much. This is such an
important topic and I so appreciate your commitment and dedication
to these issues.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
So thank you, Thank you so much, doctor Seu. The
modern movement for Asian American civil rights began with very
little support. That was during a time when anti Asian
American sentiment was particularly harsh, and legal experts weren't confident
(29:28):
that civil rights law could apply to a case involving
the beating death of an Asian American.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
But two people did speak up, and their names were
Helen Zia and Liza Chan. Zia was a writer and
activist who helped to form American Citizens for Justice, and
Chan was the lawyer who took on the criminal case
pro bono, getting evidence and testimonies.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
When these women started, there was no national civil rights
group or even a movement for Asian Americans. Not only
did their work advanced the fight for justice for Vincent Chin,
it laid the groundwork for a larger movement that continues
to grow today.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
That's right, and they started with nothing and ended up
with a movement that has touched millions.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
And now we would like to take a moment to
honor work like this that sheds light and an incredibly
dark time when things seem impossible, and goes on to
make a meaningful difference onward and upward.
Speaker 5 (30:29):
Emoa emua.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Well, that's our show for today. We'd love to hear
what you thought about today's discussion and if there's a
case you'd like us to.
Speaker 5 (30:43):
Cover, find us on social media or email us at
Facingevil Pod at Tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
And one small request, if you haven't already, please find
us on iTunes and give us a good rating and review.
If you like what we do, your support is always cherished.
Nill next time.
Speaker 6 (31:01):
Aloha.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and tenderfoot TV.
The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile.
Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
(31:39):
Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
social media or email us at Facing Evil pod at
tenderfoot dot tv. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
(32:03):
to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.