March 16, 2023 • 29 mins
Meet the rebels: Noemi organises a renuion for ex Hillsongers. Janice Lagata, Tiffany Perez and Noemi meet up in New York - where a culture of exploitation and abuse went unchecked. Noemi, Janice and Tiffany explore the bond that has formed among people who’ve left the church and they jump into the issue of race. They say it’s women of colour who are some of the loudest critical voices because “Hillsong never thought we would speak out, because they never saw us”. The trio used podcasts and social media to ask awkward questions and call out those in power. They explore what justice looks like and wonder whether the best form of revenge could simply be finding happiness outside Hillsong?
False Profits: Hillsong is produced by Storyglass for iHeartRadio
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Blessed are the meek. That's a great sentiment, but I
like to suggest another one. Blessed are the troublemakers. This
episode is all about people who spoke out and caused trouble,
the rebels. It's time to organize a Hillsong reunion in
New York. The plays where so much bad stuff happened
(00:25):
in Hillsong Church. But Brian Houston and Carl Lentz, you're
not invited. The people I'm going to meet in New
York played a massive role in my life. They are
the ones who challenge people with power and called out
a culture of exploitation and abuse. In the past six
episodes of False Prophets, we've investigated Hillsong's money, its treatment
(00:47):
of staff and volunteers, and its attitude towards LGBTQ people.
Without these two women I'm about to meet, I might
have never had the courage to make this series. I
think Tiff and Jennie might be coming down the hall.
(01:08):
I have like the biggest smile on my face. Oh hello,
Oh my goodness, So Tiff is here, Janie is coming
in wherever you want over there right here? Have you
met Jennie? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, Okay, I haven't.
Oh man, you made it. You both made it. Yeah.
(01:32):
After leaving Hillsong, they have been by my side. Tiff
has been by my side since day one of me leaving.
I met her while I was at Hillsong, and I
noticed something different about her in comparison to other folks there,
and she has been a catalyst for me to be
(01:54):
able to speak out even more. I label myself as
luck Na neu Rican. My parents are from Brooklyn. I've
daughter of her single mom, oldest technically a five. I
was raised Catholic. I was twenty two twenty three leading
(02:18):
the youth group at my church and the older people
just didn't want anything to do with the youth. And
I was introduced by two friends that I went to
high school with and they introduced me in the whole song.
And that first day is the date that I have
tattooed on my collar bone April twenty nine, twenty twelve,
even while we were attending, like I remember like sometimes
(02:42):
looking around and being like what the fuck did I
get myself into. Janice is a whole another story. She's amazing,
She's so creative, and I found her through Tiffany and
just on social media, see the skits that she would
put together and the blog post that she would do,
(03:05):
and to see how she would use her rage and
her creativity in her own way to speak out against Hillsong.
I am Janice. I am a black woman, cat person writer.
I grew up in church and yeah, back in the
(03:30):
early two thousands, my church started using Hillsong music, so
that's how I got introduced to Hillsong. Since leaving Hillsong,
tiff Tiffany Perez has been a part of Do Better Church,
a group for victims and survivors of church abuse, and
Janice Legata has been running her own podcast, God is
(03:52):
Not given another space for victims and survivors of church abuse.
We've all brought something with us, something from our past.
So we brought an item. So I'm gonna grab mine,
and I asked people to bring something that reminds him
of Hillsong. Why don't you open your open mine? So
(04:14):
it is a picture. So yeah, so this is a
picture of tiff and I after church on a Sunday,
And I actually cropped someone out of it because they
were part of my traumatic experience at Hillsong. I wanted
to include Tiff obviously just heard. Now I'm a little
(04:36):
teary eyed for this, Yeah, and I want you to
keep it. Oh yeah, I brought it for you, Yeah,
because I think that was like a big moment for
me where I finally met someone who was LATINX doing
more leadership. Yeah. We look very different from that time.
We're very free now. Yeah. Yeah feel like the genuine
(05:01):
of like the friendship, yeah has always been there. So oh,
Tip brought something really bitter sweet. It's from the time
when she went to Hillsong College in Australia. Oh, what
is it? So it's my ring. My mom bought that
(05:22):
for me when I graduated from Hillsong College because she
was actually able to go to Sydney and there was
a place she always wants it to go, so she
got me that. It's like the only thing that I
still kind of hold on too, obviously, my tattoo. I
can't let go of you. Yeah, but I wear it
every day and if I don't have it on, I
feel like naked without it. Yeah. Has the symbol of
(05:44):
that like changed for you? It hasn't, because Hillsong College
was the only college that I graduated from, So it's
a big moment for me. Even though like the definition
has changed, it was a big deal for me to
do that. It was something that i'd for me. Ultimately,
I just learned things that I didn't think I would
(06:06):
from that. Well, yeah, Jannis went to Hillsong College too,
but years before Teth learning how to do church the
Hillsong Way was a dream for many followers. Janna started
to look for conferences she wanted to go to in
the US, but when she found out about Hillsong College,
she wanted to go. Whatever the cost. I don't remember
the exact numbers now, so this was back in two
(06:29):
thousand and five. It was expensive, like I did have
to save, but it wasn't It wasn't a crazy amount
like it was. It was doable. So many Biblical stories
of people just being called out of their element and
into places they've never been and doing things they've never
done so attract and what she learned there wasn't necessarily
(06:54):
what she was expecting to learn. You're learning Hillsong culture,
you're learning the Hillsong way of doing things, but you're
not particularly picking up any kind of actual skills. We
used to laugh at the graduation ceremonies where they would
trot out, you know, like, oh, here's this great violin player.
You know, here's our little string section or whatever, and
(07:14):
these are skills these people came here with. Like nobody
learned how to play the violin at Hillsong, Like it
wasn't until my third year, I think, when they started
offering like basic music theory classes. So it was just
very here's what the Bible says about worship, but here's
actually what Hillsong says about what the Bible says about worship.
(07:37):
No actual qualifications or transferable skills. I mean maybe I did,
for a time work as part of the cleaning crew,
so I was on paid staff as a janitor basically,
So if that's a skill I learned how to, I
(07:59):
no longer remember exactly how to make Brian Houston's coffee.
So he likes his coffee like it's like random, like
three long shots of coffee, but like super hot, which
means that the grinds are burnt essentially. Yeah, And majority
of the time you're like, this is the pastor's coffee,
and ninety five percent of the time they didn't drink it.
(08:21):
So that was part of my time in Australia. I've
learned how to make the pastor's coffee, and I was
super intimidated to do it, so I had my team
do it. But now I'm just like, I'll make anyone
a coffee. Yeah, it's not a big deal. Anything is
better than burnt being coffee. Oh yeah, extra hot. The
assistants are like and then you couldn't double cup it,
(08:41):
so you just had to burn your fucking hand like
holding the cup. If you're interested in learning more about
burnt being coffee and other stuff, the price tag today
for an undergraduate bachelor's in ministry at Hillsong College, Australia
is just over twelve thousand US dollars a year for
(09:02):
overseas students. The course last three years. But there's a
college in California formerly in Arizona as well. But you
won't get to make burntbreing coffee for Brian Houston because
a big eagle got fired. As time progressed, I realized
(09:24):
that I wasn't the only one who had been speaking out.
There've been people speaking out for years, more than thirty years.
I was now joining the rebellion, some people may say,
and honestly it's an honor to call myself part of
the rebellion. It's an honor to be called a heretic.
Jesus was called a heretic, So for me to be
(09:47):
called a heretic, to be called someone who's speaking out,
to be called someone who's churning tables or flipping tables,
I'm okay with that. Speaking out has been a part
of my healing journey, and even that words joe for me.
But I'm really grateful that I've been able to find
that part of me to speak out. Being a part
(10:08):
of the Do Better Church team has helped me a lot.
A good friend of mine now it was like, whoever
wants to be a part of this thing, Like we
don't know what it's going to look like, but we
want to hear people's stories. And Folks's courage gave me
my own. So that's what started it. It was realizing
(10:30):
I wasn't alone. Yeah, and it was during the height
of the pandemic too, so we were all home, ye,
like just stewing and all of these things, and it
was just like I remember just being like fuck this, Yeah,
I need to get this out. Yeah. Sure, there's like
I'm hoping that someone hears me and feels comfortable enough
(10:54):
to say their story or be able to acknowledge what
they've gone through themselves. But I'm doing it for me
and I have been. There was so much that I
didn't talk about for years and with anyone, so just
the pent up, like I need to let this out.
And thankfully Instagram was and has been a tool that's
(11:20):
been very useful for me to be able to speak out.
After you had left, I would check in to see
how you were doing. Yeah. But when I left, I
texted you and I said, Tiff, I left Hill Song,
I don't know what to do. And then we started
talking and I shared my experience and we were like
there for each other over text yeah, and then over
(11:41):
the phone. And then you reach out and told me
about Do Better Church. Yeah, and I was like okay,
like sure, I'll write it out, and we started like
sharing more and writing out. I think Do Better Church
is like a big connection probably for the three of us.
I remember I wrote like almost like three to five pages,
like it was long, and I submitted it and I
(12:02):
was like, I don't know who's going to read this,
and if it's going to be shared, I don't care
but at least I did it, and from there it
was like a catalyst. And then things started happening on
social media and I started like posting war and calling
pastors out. And that's how like like we were connected,
Like you were a big part for me to start
sharing because you told me about do better church. So
(12:24):
to hear you say that was also a big part
for you, and that I was also in genis is
also a part for you to start sharing your story.
Like that's that's deep. We finally found safety. Yeah, and
it was through the internet. Yeah, when speaking out rage
(12:46):
is actually really important because it helps give you some
courage to say the things that you've been wanting to say.
Oftentimes you tend to protect people or you were taught
to protect your pastor or your leader growing up in church.
(13:06):
Speaking out comes with consequences. But when it came to Hillsong,
I realized that it was a whole nother level because
Hillsong isn't a whole other level economically, and they have
more power socially. There are millions of people who follow
the church on social media and on different platforms, so
(13:30):
the backlash was at a different level. And that's what
I wasn't prepared for when I first started speaking out,
and I started receiving backlash from different leaders from the church,
from different trolls. I ended up having to admit myself
into the hospital because of all the backlash that I received.
(13:53):
Everyone wanted to know about Hillsong. You start learning more
about like the media and about reporter is and what
they're looking for. Then you start getting labeled by people
within the church. Yes, as like the gossipers and the naysayers.
If you're not in line with Hillsong, then you're automatically
(14:13):
a troublemaker. You're a God hater, you're a liar, you're
a gossiper. And I'm like, Okay, you want to continue
throwing labels out, sure, but can we talk about yours too,
and what you've been complicit with and what you're allowing
And so if I'm going to be a troublemaker, then
(14:34):
good trouble right. Yeah, I didn't set out to be
a troublemaker, and I shouldn't be right, Like, if you
guys were doing the right thing. There's so much going
on in the world. It's just so weird that we're
public enemy number one, Like, where are your biggest concern. Yeah,
(14:55):
not the way people's rights are being stripped or not,
you know, the abuse that's happening. Yeah, none of that,
Like you're not looking within its people who are telling
it's the people who were sorry who were speaking about
like the people who are trying to stop trouble. Yeah,
are the trouble troublemakers. It's just so backwards, like if
(15:16):
you're not us, then you're against us. It's like I
need to say something for myself and if you don't
like it, then maybe you should have acted better. He've
better treated people better. But if you're still not doing it,
then I'm going to question it and I'm going to
continue to call you out and I'm going to continue
get blocked. I don't care you got blocks. I've been
(15:38):
blocked by Brian Howson on Twitter and I'm not even
on Twitter like that you welcome to the club and
I've been blocked. I was blocked because I tweeted something
you told me to tweet. I was like, yeah, do
that write it? Okay? The block blocked? Have you been blocked?
Are you? Are you part of the club? No, what
(16:01):
I can either in or out. I can't get blocked
by Brian Man. I guess I'm in. It got really scary.
I didn't know what to do. I was being targeted
and stalked on social media by different leaders, constantly getting messages,
(16:22):
and it was just a little bit too overwhelming for me.
I had to step away for my own safety. Whenever
stories are shared in the media, or whenever we share
(16:42):
in different like documentaries or articles, you don't hear often
people talk about racism and it's so frustrating because it's
there and it's so visible, but no one has the
courage or I don't even know what it is to
just step into that and talk about because it's real,
it's there and it happens. And there's like two women
(17:04):
of color and an afab of color, like that's big. Yeah.
For me, there was this glass ceiling constantly. As a Latina,
there's hardly any representation of anything but white Australian. Right
for me to be a woman of color, I'm already
(17:25):
a woman and then a woman of color was just like,
all right, well, you can help with hospitality things and
you can help with taking care of people, but to
see yourself on a stage, yeah, that wasn't going to happen.
But I'm there because they needed the representation for the
brochures and for look at what we do on social media.
(17:48):
They're never going to talk about the ugly. I was
called exotic while I was at holl Song College because
I'm Puto Rican and I'm like fam no, like, yes
i am, but no, not to you, Like that's not
available to you. The people who have spoken out about
the racism, they've received attacks and they've received death threats.
(18:12):
It goes back to this troublemaker thing. You're labeled as
a troublemaker, but now people are going to threaten you. Yeah,
it happens in Christian spaces all the time. Oh yeah,
a thousand percent. What about for you, Jennie. I mean
it's kind of Hillsong is a colonial company, right, it
(18:33):
goes where it goes as a colonizer. I mean, it's
just wild to think about it now. But like we
just accepted that and through the doors opening. Yeah. Yeah,
white men from way over there come over here and
tell us how to do church. Yeah. And so I
mean it was always always there, blatantly right on the surface,
but we didn't see and we're just having very different
(18:54):
conversations now than we were ten years ago. But when
we did start having those conversations, I think people can
see it, but people don't want to talk about it
because then we have to get into conversations about intentions
versus you know, impact, and people suddenly want to become
very like factual and they want you to prove things
(19:15):
and like show it to me on paper. Yeah, and
it's like you can't. And people don't believe people of color,
they don't believe women, they don't believe women of color.
Can they immediately turn everything back on you? Right? And
so for me to say, I mean, I'm ghostwriting Josh
Kayne's sermons, I'm writing the connect group studies you guys
(19:39):
are using across the church. But he's qualified to be
a preacher, but I'm not. But I can never say
that because then it becomes why do you think you
should be a preacher? Now? It's about my heart, right
and what I want and what am I in it for? Ye?
And you know what do you really would you really
care about? Yeah? So, like much of the work we
(20:01):
do for them, So before we're even having these conversations,
you've probably done months, if not years, of talking yourself
down right and being like, no, it's not it's not
about me. And then by the time I'm seeing something,
it doesn't matter if Carlins doesn't see it. Yeah, and
he's not going to believe me because you're too close
(20:22):
to this topic and you have an agenda now, right,
and so yeah, the conversation goes nowhere, and then you
get caught in that space of well, I have to
be the change I want to see, So now I've
got to stay here and work, work with him and
work on this and maybe that's that's mine, that's why
i'm because that's also something they get you to do,
(20:43):
to do their labor. Well, I mean, and then Carl
even even now, like you'll still see people. Yeah, No,
but he said black lives matter. Carl always loved black people. Carl. Oh,
we appreciate Carl, And I'm like, no, he didn't. He
was doing the least nobody else was saying. It's so
much great. It was just saying saying it and liking
(21:04):
that attention. Yeah, and getting that attention. Yeah, like it
implicates everybody. Look at him, He's saying black lives matter.
Why are you more grateful? Right? Because we're so devalued.
We should be thankful for any scraps and then honestly
that should hold you for a good long while. Yeah,
like you guys like you just always want more, so
(21:24):
then it becomes about us again. It's just exhausting. I mean,
it's it's tiring work, and especially when people don't want
to do it. Troublemaking is exhausting, tough work. Not everyone
can do it. So we've been speaking out, and I
know the message that we've had has changed over time.
(21:46):
I know for me, at first it was just don't
abuse people, stop, like do better, but now I'm like,
fuck it, burn it down. What does justice and accountability
look like for you? Tif with a oologies has to
come action steps. There's been weak as apologies. It's always
(22:06):
that I'm sorry, you feel right sorry if you yeah,
if you felt that way. Yeah, it's never this acknowledgement.
There's no holding anyone responsible in a Hillsong world. And
it's globally like if Hillsong could have gone to different
planets in different universes, they would have. Now they're falling
(22:29):
apart because they're dumpster fire. Yeah, but there's no accountability,
like they're reaping what they sowed. It's literally they're crumbling
on their own because of their own actions. Yeah, because
their foundation wasn't good to begin with, right, and that's
not going to stand the test of time. Right. Yeah.
The Bible talks about building on sand by by house.
(22:54):
What about for you, Janice? I mean, in a perfect world,
justice and accountability would look like Hillsong being dismantled, all
of their finances being brought to the front, and them
having to repay everybody return tied to return tuition, and
be forced to pay for a people's therapy. I don't
(23:17):
think we're ever going to see justice. It's possible, but
I feel like most of them are just gonna skate away. Yeah.
None of them have repented. None of them have given
any true apologies, shown any true remorse. So I have
to be satisfied with knowing they're not happy people. That
(23:38):
turmoil that they have, They've earned it, and that's theirs
to keep. I just want the institution to not exist anymore. Okay,
to at least get out of the United States. You
can do whatever you're going to do in Australia. That's
none of my business, but you need to get out
of here. And you know, when I see them on
the online streets to remind them of who they are. Ye,
(24:02):
so you're not Yeah, you can move on to another church.
But if I see you, I'm gonna say something. And
I mean true, Jesice, the best justice is just us
living our best lives. Yeah, and we are getting there.
I'm working in public health and LGBTQ rights advocacy. I'm
doing truly meaningful work and I'm being paid for it.
(24:25):
I'm in a relationship. I have family and friends who
love me. And I look at Janice, who've written a
new musical, who is sharing her creativity with the world
on her terms. And I look at Tiff, who is
also doing a job she loves, getting properly paid for
supporting children. I was told that you brought something today, Janice.
(24:50):
Could you share a little bit more about that bearing gifts?
Sure you come burying gifts. It's not a gift. Oh,
it's a okay to you? Oh my god? Um yeah,
just thinking about because we haven't met in person, yeah before,
and we have we have so much history, but I
(25:16):
don't know, it's it's a weird history. It is right,
like we're tied together and we know so many of
the same people. Yeah, when we come from the same place,
but we've never been in the same place. Yeah. So
I just wrote this letter. Okay, I mean it feels
like I just read the letter. You can go for it.
Yeah so, no, immy. A Life of Significance. That was
(25:38):
the tagline, the motto, the slogan emblazoned across the T
shirts and messenger bags they handed out on registration day
at Hillsong International Leadership College when I arrived in May
of two thousand and five. A life of significance Hillsong
lies about a lot, and it's wrong about a lot.
And I suspect they were lying about that, but they
weren't wrong. And I think a lot about the signific
(26:00):
against I may have had in your story. I lose
time imagining ways I could have changed, not the outcome,
because here we are, but the middle, the parts I
helped set in motion and then missed. But who could
have known? What percentage of responsibility does my well intentioned
service hold for the hell you were steered into? And
regardless of the answer, how can I make it up
(26:20):
to you to tiff to everyone hurt? That's the question,
that's the quest to be as dedicated to the dismantling
as I was, to the dissonance and memory of what
happened to you, but not really for you at this point,
because you're all right. You lived, and you are living
as yourself in spite of all the ways the leaders
of Philo Song Boston leaned into and led with their
(26:42):
own fears and insecurities to discourage you, discourage me and
everyone who wasn't a white boy. And here we are
looking back with more sorrow than anyone should have about
a place that loved to say welcome home, and more
laughter than expected. And as much as I wish everything
could have been different, if I'm honest, I probably wouldn't
change a thing. I'm not saying the pain was worth
(27:04):
the inside jokes, but some folks still only have the pain.
So I'm very thankful for you, and I'm proud of
you in ways I don't have any right to be,
because I was no help to you. But I've learned
anything from Hill Song, It's how to take the most
credit for doing the least. Amen. And as Hill Song
continues to burn, it's an honor, it's a joy. It's
a good time to be standing on the right side
(27:25):
of the fire with you, And after so much time
and so many attempts by so many people to turn
us into useful, Hillsong approved versions of us, it turns
out that a life simply lived as ourselves really is
a life of significance. Thankful for, proud of, and proud
to know you, Mad Love Jennis. Wow, thank you. That
(27:49):
was I'm like holding back tears right now. You're an
amazing person. I didn't know this was happening. So this
is it's like a complete like shock to me. You
say in your letter that you feel like you had
some responsibility. Yeah, and I don't see that, and I
(28:12):
feel I'm sorry that you do. For me, it was
like beyond our control because that was a Brian Houston thing.
Yeah yeah, and that was not your it's not your
very christianise. It's not your burden to bear. Yeah, thank you,
(28:43):
Thank you, Janice Lagata and Tiffany Press, thank you for
this Health Song reunion. When I look at the three
of us, I think we will survive. We left hill
Song and face the backlash, but we kept going. And
whatever happens to Hillsong, whether it survives and thrives or
(29:04):
whether it crumbles and falls, we will be okay, because,
as Jana says, a life simply lived as ourselves is
a life of significance. We have not given up the fight.
I do believe we all suffered spiritual abuse in this church,
and I still want answers from Hillsong, So in this
(29:25):
final episode, I'm still searching for accountability and justice,
Blessed are the meek. That's a great sentiment, but I
like to suggest another one. Blessed are the troublemakers. This
episode is all about people who spoke out and caused trouble,
the rebels. It's time to organize a Hillsong reunion in
New York. The plays where so much bad stuff happened
(00:25):
in Hillsong Church. But Brian Houston and Carl Lentz, you're
not invited. The people I'm going to meet in New
York played a massive role in my life. They are
the ones who challenge people with power and called out
a culture of exploitation and abuse. In the past six
episodes of False Prophets, we've investigated Hillsong's money, its treatment
(00:47):
of staff and volunteers, and its attitude towards LGBTQ people.
Without these two women I'm about to meet, I might
have never had the courage to make this series. I
think Tiff and Jennie might be coming down the hall.
(01:08):
I have like the biggest smile on my face. Oh hello,
Oh my goodness, So Tiff is here, Janie is coming
in wherever you want over there right here? Have you
met Jennie? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, Okay, I haven't.
Oh man, you made it. You both made it. Yeah.
(01:32):
After leaving Hillsong, they have been by my side. Tiff
has been by my side since day one of me leaving.
I met her while I was at Hillsong, and I
noticed something different about her in comparison to other folks there,
and she has been a catalyst for me to be
(01:54):
able to speak out even more. I label myself as
luck Na neu Rican. My parents are from Brooklyn. I've
daughter of her single mom, oldest technically a five. I
was raised Catholic. I was twenty two twenty three leading
(02:18):
the youth group at my church and the older people
just didn't want anything to do with the youth. And
I was introduced by two friends that I went to
high school with and they introduced me in the whole song.
And that first day is the date that I have
tattooed on my collar bone April twenty nine, twenty twelve,
even while we were attending, like I remember like sometimes
(02:42):
looking around and being like what the fuck did I
get myself into. Janice is a whole another story. She's amazing,
She's so creative, and I found her through Tiffany and
just on social media, see the skits that she would
put together and the blog post that she would do,
(03:05):
and to see how she would use her rage and
her creativity in her own way to speak out against Hillsong.
I am Janice. I am a black woman, cat person writer.
I grew up in church and yeah, back in the
(03:30):
early two thousands, my church started using Hillsong music, so
that's how I got introduced to Hillsong. Since leaving Hillsong,
tiff Tiffany Perez has been a part of Do Better Church,
a group for victims and survivors of church abuse, and
Janice Legata has been running her own podcast, God is
(03:52):
Not given another space for victims and survivors of church abuse.
We've all brought something with us, something from our past.
So we brought an item. So I'm gonna grab mine,
and I asked people to bring something that reminds him
of Hillsong. Why don't you open your open mine? So
(04:14):
it is a picture. So yeah, so this is a
picture of tiff and I after church on a Sunday,
And I actually cropped someone out of it because they
were part of my traumatic experience at Hillsong. I wanted
to include Tiff obviously just heard. Now I'm a little
(04:36):
teary eyed for this, Yeah, and I want you to
keep it. Oh yeah, I brought it for you, Yeah,
because I think that was like a big moment for
me where I finally met someone who was LATINX doing
more leadership. Yeah. We look very different from that time.
We're very free now. Yeah. Yeah feel like the genuine
(05:01):
of like the friendship, yeah has always been there. So oh,
Tip brought something really bitter sweet. It's from the time
when she went to Hillsong College in Australia. Oh, what
is it? So it's my ring. My mom bought that
(05:22):
for me when I graduated from Hillsong College because she
was actually able to go to Sydney and there was
a place she always wants it to go, so she
got me that. It's like the only thing that I
still kind of hold on too, obviously, my tattoo. I
can't let go of you. Yeah, but I wear it
every day and if I don't have it on, I
feel like naked without it. Yeah. Has the symbol of
(05:44):
that like changed for you? It hasn't, because Hillsong College
was the only college that I graduated from, So it's
a big moment for me. Even though like the definition
has changed, it was a big deal for me to
do that. It was something that i'd for me. Ultimately,
I just learned things that I didn't think I would
(06:06):
from that. Well, yeah, Jannis went to Hillsong College too,
but years before Teth learning how to do church the
Hillsong Way was a dream for many followers. Janna started
to look for conferences she wanted to go to in
the US, but when she found out about Hillsong College,
she wanted to go. Whatever the cost. I don't remember
the exact numbers now, so this was back in two
(06:29):
thousand and five. It was expensive, like I did have
to save, but it wasn't It wasn't a crazy amount
like it was. It was doable. So many Biblical stories
of people just being called out of their element and
into places they've never been and doing things they've never
done so attract and what she learned there wasn't necessarily
(06:54):
what she was expecting to learn. You're learning Hillsong culture,
you're learning the Hillsong way of doing things, but you're
not particularly picking up any kind of actual skills. We
used to laugh at the graduation ceremonies where they would
trot out, you know, like, oh, here's this great violin player.
You know, here's our little string section or whatever, and
(07:14):
these are skills these people came here with. Like nobody
learned how to play the violin at Hillsong, Like it
wasn't until my third year, I think, when they started
offering like basic music theory classes. So it was just
very here's what the Bible says about worship, but here's
actually what Hillsong says about what the Bible says about worship.
(07:37):
No actual qualifications or transferable skills. I mean maybe I did,
for a time work as part of the cleaning crew,
so I was on paid staff as a janitor basically,
So if that's a skill I learned how to, I
(07:59):
no longer remember exactly how to make Brian Houston's coffee.
So he likes his coffee like it's like random, like
three long shots of coffee, but like super hot, which
means that the grinds are burnt essentially. Yeah, And majority
of the time you're like, this is the pastor's coffee,
and ninety five percent of the time they didn't drink it.
(08:21):
So that was part of my time in Australia. I've
learned how to make the pastor's coffee, and I was
super intimidated to do it, so I had my team
do it. But now I'm just like, I'll make anyone
a coffee. Yeah, it's not a big deal. Anything is
better than burnt being coffee. Oh yeah, extra hot. The
assistants are like and then you couldn't double cup it,
(08:41):
so you just had to burn your fucking hand like
holding the cup. If you're interested in learning more about
burnt being coffee and other stuff, the price tag today
for an undergraduate bachelor's in ministry at Hillsong College, Australia
is just over twelve thousand US dollars a year for
(09:02):
overseas students. The course last three years. But there's a
college in California formerly in Arizona as well. But you
won't get to make burntbreing coffee for Brian Houston because
a big eagle got fired. As time progressed, I realized
(09:24):
that I wasn't the only one who had been speaking out.
There've been people speaking out for years, more than thirty years.
I was now joining the rebellion, some people may say,
and honestly it's an honor to call myself part of
the rebellion. It's an honor to be called a heretic.
Jesus was called a heretic, So for me to be
(09:47):
called a heretic, to be called someone who's speaking out,
to be called someone who's churning tables or flipping tables,
I'm okay with that. Speaking out has been a part
of my healing journey, and even that words joe for me.
But I'm really grateful that I've been able to find
that part of me to speak out. Being a part
(10:08):
of the Do Better Church team has helped me a lot.
A good friend of mine now it was like, whoever
wants to be a part of this thing, Like we
don't know what it's going to look like, but we
want to hear people's stories. And Folks's courage gave me
my own. So that's what started it. It was realizing
(10:30):
I wasn't alone. Yeah, and it was during the height
of the pandemic too, so we were all home, ye,
like just stewing and all of these things, and it
was just like I remember just being like fuck this, Yeah,
I need to get this out. Yeah. Sure, there's like
I'm hoping that someone hears me and feels comfortable enough
(10:54):
to say their story or be able to acknowledge what
they've gone through themselves. But I'm doing it for me
and I have been. There was so much that I
didn't talk about for years and with anyone, so just
the pent up, like I need to let this out.
And thankfully Instagram was and has been a tool that's
(11:20):
been very useful for me to be able to speak out.
After you had left, I would check in to see
how you were doing. Yeah. But when I left, I
texted you and I said, Tiff, I left Hill Song,
I don't know what to do. And then we started
talking and I shared my experience and we were like
there for each other over text yeah, and then over
(11:41):
the phone. And then you reach out and told me
about Do Better Church. Yeah, and I was like okay,
like sure, I'll write it out, and we started like
sharing more and writing out. I think Do Better Church
is like a big connection probably for the three of us.
I remember I wrote like almost like three to five pages,
like it was long, and I submitted it and I
(12:02):
was like, I don't know who's going to read this,
and if it's going to be shared, I don't care
but at least I did it, and from there it
was like a catalyst. And then things started happening on
social media and I started like posting war and calling
pastors out. And that's how like like we were connected,
Like you were a big part for me to start
sharing because you told me about do better church. So
(12:24):
to hear you say that was also a big part
for you, and that I was also in genis is
also a part for you to start sharing your story.
Like that's that's deep. We finally found safety. Yeah, and
it was through the internet. Yeah, when speaking out rage
(12:46):
is actually really important because it helps give you some
courage to say the things that you've been wanting to say.
Oftentimes you tend to protect people or you were taught
to protect your pastor or your leader growing up in church.
(13:06):
Speaking out comes with consequences. But when it came to Hillsong,
I realized that it was a whole nother level because
Hillsong isn't a whole other level economically, and they have
more power socially. There are millions of people who follow
the church on social media and on different platforms, so
(13:30):
the backlash was at a different level. And that's what
I wasn't prepared for when I first started speaking out,
and I started receiving backlash from different leaders from the church,
from different trolls. I ended up having to admit myself
into the hospital because of all the backlash that I received.
(13:53):
Everyone wanted to know about Hillsong. You start learning more
about like the media and about reporter is and what
they're looking for. Then you start getting labeled by people
within the church. Yes, as like the gossipers and the naysayers.
If you're not in line with Hillsong, then you're automatically
(14:13):
a troublemaker. You're a God hater, you're a liar, you're
a gossiper. And I'm like, Okay, you want to continue
throwing labels out, sure, but can we talk about yours too,
and what you've been complicit with and what you're allowing
And so if I'm going to be a troublemaker, then
(14:34):
good trouble right. Yeah, I didn't set out to be
a troublemaker, and I shouldn't be right, Like, if you
guys were doing the right thing. There's so much going
on in the world. It's just so weird that we're
public enemy number one, Like, where are your biggest concern. Yeah,
(14:55):
not the way people's rights are being stripped or not,
you know, the abuse that's happening. Yeah, none of that,
Like you're not looking within its people who are telling
it's the people who were sorry who were speaking about
like the people who are trying to stop trouble. Yeah,
are the trouble troublemakers. It's just so backwards, like if
(15:16):
you're not us, then you're against us. It's like I
need to say something for myself and if you don't
like it, then maybe you should have acted better. He've
better treated people better. But if you're still not doing it,
then I'm going to question it and I'm going to
continue to call you out and I'm going to continue
get blocked. I don't care you got blocks. I've been
(15:38):
blocked by Brian Howson on Twitter and I'm not even
on Twitter like that you welcome to the club and
I've been blocked. I was blocked because I tweeted something
you told me to tweet. I was like, yeah, do
that write it? Okay? The block blocked? Have you been blocked?
Are you? Are you part of the club? No, what
(16:01):
I can either in or out. I can't get blocked
by Brian Man. I guess I'm in. It got really scary.
I didn't know what to do. I was being targeted
and stalked on social media by different leaders, constantly getting messages,
(16:22):
and it was just a little bit too overwhelming for me.
I had to step away for my own safety. Whenever
stories are shared in the media, or whenever we share
(16:42):
in different like documentaries or articles, you don't hear often
people talk about racism and it's so frustrating because it's
there and it's so visible, but no one has the
courage or I don't even know what it is to
just step into that and talk about because it's real,
it's there and it happens. And there's like two women
(17:04):
of color and an afab of color, like that's big. Yeah.
For me, there was this glass ceiling constantly. As a Latina,
there's hardly any representation of anything but white Australian. Right
for me to be a woman of color, I'm already
(17:25):
a woman and then a woman of color was just like,
all right, well, you can help with hospitality things and
you can help with taking care of people, but to
see yourself on a stage, yeah, that wasn't going to happen.
But I'm there because they needed the representation for the
brochures and for look at what we do on social media.
(17:48):
They're never going to talk about the ugly. I was
called exotic while I was at holl Song College because
I'm Puto Rican and I'm like fam no, like, yes
i am, but no, not to you, Like that's not
available to you. The people who have spoken out about
the racism, they've received attacks and they've received death threats.
(18:12):
It goes back to this troublemaker thing. You're labeled as
a troublemaker, but now people are going to threaten you. Yeah,
it happens in Christian spaces all the time. Oh yeah,
a thousand percent. What about for you, Jennie. I mean
it's kind of Hillsong is a colonial company, right, it
(18:33):
goes where it goes as a colonizer. I mean, it's
just wild to think about it now. But like we
just accepted that and through the doors opening. Yeah. Yeah,
white men from way over there come over here and
tell us how to do church. Yeah. And so I
mean it was always always there, blatantly right on the surface,
but we didn't see and we're just having very different
(18:54):
conversations now than we were ten years ago. But when
we did start having those conversations, I think people can
see it, but people don't want to talk about it
because then we have to get into conversations about intentions
versus you know, impact, and people suddenly want to become
very like factual and they want you to prove things
(19:15):
and like show it to me on paper. Yeah, and
it's like you can't. And people don't believe people of color,
they don't believe women, they don't believe women of color.
Can they immediately turn everything back on you? Right? And
so for me to say, I mean, I'm ghostwriting Josh
Kayne's sermons, I'm writing the connect group studies you guys
(19:39):
are using across the church. But he's qualified to be
a preacher, but I'm not. But I can never say
that because then it becomes why do you think you
should be a preacher? Now? It's about my heart, right
and what I want and what am I in it for? Ye?
And you know what do you really would you really
care about? Yeah? So, like much of the work we
(20:01):
do for them, So before we're even having these conversations,
you've probably done months, if not years, of talking yourself
down right and being like, no, it's not it's not
about me. And then by the time I'm seeing something,
it doesn't matter if Carlins doesn't see it. Yeah, and
he's not going to believe me because you're too close
(20:22):
to this topic and you have an agenda now, right,
and so yeah, the conversation goes nowhere, and then you
get caught in that space of well, I have to
be the change I want to see, So now I've
got to stay here and work, work with him and
work on this and maybe that's that's mine, that's why
i'm because that's also something they get you to do,
(20:43):
to do their labor. Well, I mean, and then Carl
even even now, like you'll still see people. Yeah, No,
but he said black lives matter. Carl always loved black people. Carl. Oh,
we appreciate Carl, And I'm like, no, he didn't. He
was doing the least nobody else was saying. It's so
much great. It was just saying saying it and liking
(21:04):
that attention. Yeah, and getting that attention. Yeah, like it
implicates everybody. Look at him, He's saying black lives matter.
Why are you more grateful? Right? Because we're so devalued.
We should be thankful for any scraps and then honestly
that should hold you for a good long while. Yeah,
like you guys like you just always want more, so
(21:24):
then it becomes about us again. It's just exhausting. I mean,
it's it's tiring work, and especially when people don't want
to do it. Troublemaking is exhausting, tough work. Not everyone
can do it. So we've been speaking out, and I
know the message that we've had has changed over time.
(21:46):
I know for me, at first it was just don't
abuse people, stop, like do better, but now I'm like,
fuck it, burn it down. What does justice and accountability
look like for you? Tif with a oologies has to
come action steps. There's been weak as apologies. It's always
(22:06):
that I'm sorry, you feel right sorry if you yeah,
if you felt that way. Yeah, it's never this acknowledgement.
There's no holding anyone responsible in a Hillsong world. And
it's globally like if Hillsong could have gone to different
planets in different universes, they would have. Now they're falling
(22:29):
apart because they're dumpster fire. Yeah, but there's no accountability,
like they're reaping what they sowed. It's literally they're crumbling
on their own because of their own actions. Yeah, because
their foundation wasn't good to begin with, right, and that's
not going to stand the test of time. Right. Yeah.
The Bible talks about building on sand by by house.
(22:54):
What about for you, Janice? I mean, in a perfect world,
justice and accountability would look like Hillsong being dismantled, all
of their finances being brought to the front, and them
having to repay everybody return tied to return tuition, and
be forced to pay for a people's therapy. I don't
(23:17):
think we're ever going to see justice. It's possible, but
I feel like most of them are just gonna skate away. Yeah.
None of them have repented. None of them have given
any true apologies, shown any true remorse. So I have
to be satisfied with knowing they're not happy people. That
(23:38):
turmoil that they have, They've earned it, and that's theirs
to keep. I just want the institution to not exist anymore. Okay,
to at least get out of the United States. You
can do whatever you're going to do in Australia. That's
none of my business, but you need to get out
of here. And you know, when I see them on
the online streets to remind them of who they are. Ye,
(24:02):
so you're not Yeah, you can move on to another church.
But if I see you, I'm gonna say something. And
I mean true, Jesice, the best justice is just us
living our best lives. Yeah, and we are getting there.
I'm working in public health and LGBTQ rights advocacy. I'm
doing truly meaningful work and I'm being paid for it.
(24:25):
I'm in a relationship. I have family and friends who
love me. And I look at Janice, who've written a
new musical, who is sharing her creativity with the world
on her terms. And I look at Tiff, who is
also doing a job she loves, getting properly paid for
supporting children. I was told that you brought something today, Janice.
(24:50):
Could you share a little bit more about that bearing gifts?
Sure you come burying gifts. It's not a gift. Oh,
it's a okay to you? Oh my god? Um yeah,
just thinking about because we haven't met in person, yeah before,
and we have we have so much history, but I
(25:16):
don't know, it's it's a weird history. It is right,
like we're tied together and we know so many of
the same people. Yeah, when we come from the same place,
but we've never been in the same place. Yeah. So
I just wrote this letter. Okay, I mean it feels
like I just read the letter. You can go for it.
Yeah so, no, immy. A Life of Significance. That was
(25:38):
the tagline, the motto, the slogan emblazoned across the T
shirts and messenger bags they handed out on registration day
at Hillsong International Leadership College when I arrived in May
of two thousand and five. A life of significance Hillsong
lies about a lot, and it's wrong about a lot.
And I suspect they were lying about that, but they
weren't wrong. And I think a lot about the signific
(26:00):
against I may have had in your story. I lose
time imagining ways I could have changed, not the outcome,
because here we are, but the middle, the parts I
helped set in motion and then missed. But who could
have known? What percentage of responsibility does my well intentioned
service hold for the hell you were steered into? And
regardless of the answer, how can I make it up
(26:20):
to you to tiff to everyone hurt? That's the question,
that's the quest to be as dedicated to the dismantling
as I was, to the dissonance and memory of what
happened to you, but not really for you at this point,
because you're all right. You lived, and you are living
as yourself in spite of all the ways the leaders
of Philo Song Boston leaned into and led with their
(26:42):
own fears and insecurities to discourage you, discourage me and
everyone who wasn't a white boy. And here we are
looking back with more sorrow than anyone should have about
a place that loved to say welcome home, and more
laughter than expected. And as much as I wish everything
could have been different, if I'm honest, I probably wouldn't
change a thing. I'm not saying the pain was worth
(27:04):
the inside jokes, but some folks still only have the pain.
So I'm very thankful for you, and I'm proud of
you in ways I don't have any right to be,
because I was no help to you. But I've learned
anything from Hill Song, It's how to take the most
credit for doing the least. Amen. And as Hill Song
continues to burn, it's an honor, it's a joy. It's
a good time to be standing on the right side
(27:25):
of the fire with you, And after so much time
and so many attempts by so many people to turn
us into useful, Hillsong approved versions of us, it turns
out that a life simply lived as ourselves really is
a life of significance. Thankful for, proud of, and proud
to know you, Mad Love Jennis. Wow, thank you. That
(27:49):
was I'm like holding back tears right now. You're an
amazing person. I didn't know this was happening. So this
is it's like a complete like shock to me. You
say in your letter that you feel like you had
some responsibility. Yeah, and I don't see that, and I
(28:12):
feel I'm sorry that you do. For me, it was
like beyond our control because that was a Brian Houston thing.
Yeah yeah, and that was not your it's not your
very christianise. It's not your burden to bear. Yeah, thank you,
(28:43):
Thank you, Janice Lagata and Tiffany Press, thank you for
this Health Song reunion. When I look at the three
of us, I think we will survive. We left hill
Song and face the backlash, but we kept going. And
whatever happens to Hillsong, whether it survives and thrives or
(29:04):
whether it crumbles and falls, we will be okay, because,
as Jana says, a life simply lived as ourselves is
a life of significance. We have not given up the fight.
I do believe we all suffered spiritual abuse in this church,
and I still want answers from Hillsong, So in this
(29:25):
final episode, I'm still searching for accountability and justice,
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