May 5, 2025 • 41 mins
The Lincoln Project’s Rick Wilson examines Trump’s increasingly deranged media appearances. Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson details her new book The Purposeful Warrior: Standing Up for What's Right When the Stakes Are High.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds, and Elon Musk says it's outrageous to
claim he's a Nazi. We have such a great show
for you today, The Lincoln Project zwn Rick Wilson joins
us to discuss Trump's increasingly deranged media appearances. Then we'll
(00:24):
talk to Michigan Secretary of State Johncelyn Benson about her
new book, The Purposeful Warrior, standing up for what's right
when the stakes are high.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
But first the news.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
My mister Trump back of the day. We used to
call people in public office who change their opinion on
things foot flopper. Now we just see it as a
normal thing. And he is foot flopped on firing Jerome
Powell after many, many stern words about him.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So Jerome Powell is basically what is standing between.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Us and dollar flight?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Okay, dollar flight is when the world gives up the
dollar as the default currency and goes into the Euro
or something else. Part of the American exceptionalism is that,
for some reason, people think that our currency is the safest.
If Donald Trump continues his behavior, as you know, disappearing
(01:17):
grad students and acting like we're an emerging government or
the global South, or a country that, you know, South America,
a sort of country that has a continent that has
less of this sort of structural democracy that we have
in this country.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Then if Trump keeps doing this.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Then people will stop using the dollar as their default currency.
Our debt will get more expensive to service. We already
have enormous debt in this country, and it will be
real bad, and everything will be more expensive, and we
won't be able to live in quite the way we've
been living. And it just no one wants dollar flight,
which is why we really want Donald Trump to keep
(02:02):
Jerome Powell. Now, the good news is Jerome Palell is
not interested in leaving. Like with so many things in
this Trump administration, it's not even clear that Trump can
fire Jerome Palell, just like it's not even clear that
he could deport those immigrants. Everything Trump is doing, or
at least much of what Trump is doing, will ultimately
(02:24):
be reversed by the laws or the next president. So
he's basically, I think, very much threatening something he can't do.
Now that said, Powell's term as FED chair ends in
May twenty twenty six, and that I think is important
because in May twenty twenty six, we will still be
(02:46):
before the midterms, so that's not going to be good.
But in twenty twenty six, god knows who Donald Trump
will put in this job. By the way, I just
want for two seconds to talk about what's happened at
the IRS, because I think it's important. I would like
to read a paragraph from the Economist about what's happening
(03:06):
at the IRS right now, because I think it's really
important to realize that these people have no idea what
they're doing. Okay, Basically, they put a guy in charge
of the IRS who was a MAGA hero after he
alleged that the IRS was slow walking its investigation into
Hunter Biden. He was ousted because Scott Besst, the Treasury Secretary,
(03:28):
said his name is mister Shapelee. He was installed by
Elon Musk, and he was asked by dissent. Then he
had replaced someone else who had resigned because Musk had
offered a deferred resignation to her. She had replaced someone
who was Trump's first acting commissioner, Douglas O'Donnell, who retired
(03:51):
early after a month in the post. Okay, so we
are now at the fourth or fifth head of the irs.
So I want to point out like, even when Trump
World can replace these people, a lot of the time,
the people that he picks are incompetent or unable or
unwilling to do what he wants.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Great stuff. Speaking of how bad things are going, mister
Trump did this interview with Kristin Milker that you're going
to talk about more with Rick Wilson and just a bit,
and I found this piece one of the more laughable moments.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
When does it become the Trump economy?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
It partially is, right now, I think the good parts
of the Trump economy and the bad parts of the
Biden economy. Yes, the good parts are the Trump economy
and the bad parts are the Biden economy. Look, that
interview is worth listening to because this guy not only
is he the president, he's the president with the most
(04:47):
presidential power basically ever, because he's consolidated presidential power. So
he's somewhere between president and pope. As he posted this
weekend when he posted pictures of himself the pope. Yeah,
not good, not good, but you know it is good.
Jesse Cannon, what's that that my man is losing in
(05:09):
the court of law.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I will say, you know, we often brag about things
we saw coming. Our worst fears before he was elected
was that this would not happen. So I am emboldened
by you know, he always talks about how we're going
to be tired of winning.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
That's not what's happened to him in the court.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Jesse and I have been through a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I feel like Jesse has been through more than I
have because I don't know, I'm like a little bit
less sensitive to the horrors that are our American political
system right now.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
But let's just go through it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Jesse and I have been writing and talking and podcasting
about the Alien Enemies Act.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Forever and ever and ever.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
We thought it was a pretty weak sauce because the
whole idea is it's always been used during wartime War
of eighteen twelve, World War One, world War two, at
all these different times they were able to use this
Act because it was part of what happens when you're
at war. Trump wanted to say, we were at war
(06:05):
with this gang in Nicaragua who no one had ever
fucking heard of until Trump took office. Turns out courts
are like yet so that is gonna that's already been
next and will only be more deportations to countries other
than a migrants country of origin. Also yet, so that
(06:26):
is again probably a pretty good sign that Trump is
losing temporary protective status of people fleeing humanitarian crisis is
also Trump is Yet the courts say no diice. And
then of course there are the guys who are still
rotting at Seacott, and those guys the courts want returned.
(06:51):
So again, you know, also disappearing foreign students can't do
that anymore. One has been released more to come under
outably if we can ever get them out full time.
Foreign students had to send back their immigration visas, not
allowed to pull them, warrantless to rest in California, And
(07:11):
yet refugee admissions got to do it. And the birthright
citizenship case is going to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I bet you a gazillion dollars.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
That the Supreme Court says, no, you don't get to
overturn by birthright citizenship. So so far a lot of
the Heritage Foundation's work has been undermined, and we love
to see it. We are delighted to see the Heritage
Foundation lose delightful.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So, Molly, we did an amazing interview last week with
the New York Times Peter Goodman on supply chains. I
know it's not the most exciting subject.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
But we really killed it.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Let us congratulate ourselves again for that, because we really
did kill it.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
You know what, it's getting views on YouTube and you're
talking supply chains, you know you did something right. Anyway,
it seems that there's gonna be a lot of very
odd products that are not gonna be on the shelves
or doubling in price very soon, and it's not feeling
so good for mister Trump's approval rating.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So here's the thing which I don't think Trump's approval
rating has yet been exposed to, because we have been
warning people about it.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
But no one's only seen it.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And this is another point where you know, we're warning people,
but people haven't actually experienced it. Until you experience it,
you're not going to really understand what it is. So
here's here's what's going on. There are things that are
made in China that are not made in the United States.
By tariffing them, you have just made them more expensive.
(08:38):
You have not made factories to make them in the
United States. So we're about to have a real problem.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Now.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I want to go back to Amazon. Amazon has made
everything a lot cheaper by selling a lot of Chinese goods.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
What Amazon wanted to do was put next to prices,
how much more tariffs we're going to make them?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
But Trump said no. Was very mad.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Mister Bezos, who has blue origin, wants to put famous
people on mars. He caved or his people cave. There
will not be a sort of like this should be
four bucks, but because of tariffs, it's eight Here's the problem.
It's still going to be eight bucks. So it may
not say that tariffs are causing it, but people are
(09:24):
about to realize that things are about to get more expensive.
And we're also going to have some empty shelves for
stuff that isn't made in the state. So Americans tend
not to like it when things cost more money for
no reason.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So we're going to see how this plays. M Rick
Wilson is the founder of Lincoln Project and the host
of the Enemy's List.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
It's a Sunday, and Sunday means that Rick Wilson and
Jesse Roast may congratulations. Let's go Rick Wilson Sunday, President
of the United States on Meet the Press with Kristen Welker,
And he doesn't know if he's supposed to uphold the Constitution.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
You know, he has sworn that oath twice now, he.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Had his fingers crossed both.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
But then again, he's been married three times and he
swore an oath then too, And he signed about a
jillion contract in his life and he never followed any
of those. So my only question to my conservative friends
who are like the constitution, go him first.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Really does it? Does it?
Speaker 5 (10:30):
Or or or or are we now in it? Are
we now just gonna not even pretend anymore? We're just
gonna go all in.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
We're in post constitutionalism.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
We're in post a lot of things right now.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
And I think I think the dumbest part of this
is expecting that Trump will ever follow anything that doesn't
make him money, make him feel like he's the center
of attention, or titillate him in some way.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I think the best moment, the best, the most sort
of meaning full moment of that interview was him saying
was him explaining that he has no idea how trade
works at all?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Yeah? Correct? Correct? Correct? He he really is? He really is.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
That was a guy, and he's a guy that people
in the White House shouldn't know that he thinks he's
he thinks he's great with the press, and increasingly, unless
it is spoon fed to him like like vanilla pudding,
not so good. I mean, that was not an impressive
answer on trade or the economy because he doesn't understand
anything about anything at all.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
There's no there there.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
And and you know, if you were a Trump supporter
watching that, you know, just arguing, do you had to
say to yourself, Well, the boss could have answered that
a little more effectively. Oh fuck, I gotta go to
the store and buy beans and can goods because we're
all going to starve this winter.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So it was not a good So let's talk about
this for a second, because this is the thing that
it feels like we're careening towards right now. We still
have empty container ships coming in right in the ports
of Los Angeles Long Beach. Some these are sort of
next week and the week after that's after the tariffs.
(12:12):
So if you were in the water when the on
Liberation Day, you weren't tariffed. But if you were heading
in the water the day after Liberation day, you're on
the list. As we say in you know an economists
speak fucked so now.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Ges that is a technical term that Fred Kayak wrote
often about the.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Discussion exactly so now he's fucked. Right, we have China cheat,
There is no there is nothing, we have no.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
Day like the Chinese is correctly read that Trump would
do one stupid thing after another, double down on the
stupid thing. Right, take the stupid thing out on a date,
fuck it in the backseat of his car, get it pregnant,
and then become a baby daddy to the stupid things
son of the stupid thing. This guy, they played him
like a fiddle, and they continue to play him like
(13:04):
a fiddle.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
We have no deal with no ninety ninety deals in
ninety days, right, zero, No Japan, no Indian.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
I don't think we have any actual deals. I mean
maybe like with so Toe or somewhere.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
I don't think we have I don't think we have
any deal.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
So we have nothing and we have This all goes
into effect on July seventh, Okay, July seventh, we have
again right now, we still have one hundred and fifty
percent tariffs on China. So you know, everybody sort of stockpiled.
A lot of vendors have stockpiled. Now we are going
(13:40):
we're sort of where I think about two weeks two
three weeks from starting to really have empty shelves. Okay,
we have no trade deals, we have no plan here.
Even if tomorrow Donald Trump says to Chi, I give up, uncle,
let's restart, let's end the tariffs, we will still have
a post COVID inflationary spike the way we did last time.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
There's no question, there is no question.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
And he's weakened to the US dollar at the same time,
so foreign goods are going to cost more because of
the tariffs. The weaker dollar is going to reduce our
ability to grow the economy.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Our dead is going to get more expensive because there.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Are inflationary pressures are going to in the best case,
the Fed is going to have to put the brakes
on any idea about reducing rates. Again, none of this
had to happen, but it all ended up having to
happen because Trump. I mean, when these mistakes they concatenate,
they pile on top of one another, and they don't
(14:41):
just like they're not they're not additive, they multiply.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
They're like logarithmic.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
The more mistakes he makes, the more they compound all
the previous mistakes. So we're in for you know, everybody
should pray for a shitty recession.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
That's the good scenario.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yes, And the market has sort of gone back to
pre Liberation day numbers, right. The stocks are sort of
backup because they think that the FED is going to
cut interest rates. The Fed is not going to cut
interest rates because our FED chair is actually smart and
remembers the nineteen eighties and stagflation.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Now, what is.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Going to happen is despite not having a FED cut,
we are going to still probably have staflation because things
are going to get more expensive and we're going to
head into a recession, and that will mean that we
will be in a moment that is almost unfixable stagulation
because you can't cut interest rates because things get more expensive,
(15:45):
and you can't lower interest rates because then things will
get more inflationary.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
This box he has put us in just about the
only thing that will undo this, and it won't undo
all the damage, but has to be basically a blood
sacrifice of this issue. Trump has to say, and we
all know how likely this is, which is to say zero.
Oh god, this was a fucking a mistake. I fired
Peter Navarro and Howard Lunnink. They're fucking idiots. They led
(16:11):
me down a wrong path. This country believes in and
in free trade, and we're gonna work with our international
friends and allies and partners and trading partners, and we're
going to restore trade relations across the board. That's gonna
be my main job from now on. Forget all this
other crap. I've got to get our economy moving again.
That's how you would fix it if you were a
if you believed in fixing it.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
He does not.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
He has he's starting to dig in. I don't mean
just like the oh well maybe they get two dollars
instead of thirty that stuff. I think he's starting to
believe that this this rhetoric he's been using. Oh there's
gonna be some pain first. We've got to get tougher.
We've got to tough en up. We've got a reindustrial
None of the things he thinks are gonna happen have happened,
(16:55):
and they will not happen because this theory was broken from.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
The beginning, right, I mean, the idea that you would
ontour manufacturing by making things more expensive is not ever
how it was going to go. And you could have
done this. I think had you done this in nineteen seventy,
it might have worked, sure, but you can't do it now.
And also the lack of certainty is going to keep
people from building factories in the United States, especially for
(17:22):
things that Americans don't even want, these jobs.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I mean, that's why this is so insane.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
And honestly, we have we made an accommodation in this
country a long time ago, and Trump never, ever, ever, ever,
ever mentions it. We have a trade deficit on material
goods and a wild vast global trade surplus on services.
Now that those are going to take a big hit too,
because the world understands the way the game is. They
(17:49):
understand that the only way to defeat Trump is to
cause so much economic pain in America that he loses power.
He has lost a lot of his power in the
last few weeks because the mojo he had with his
base from the very started from twenty fifteen. He knows
the economy, he's a businessman, he's really smart. He knows
(18:11):
that to negotiate, and now he looks like a fool
every day that has started to corrode. It's not everybody,
it's not even the majority of the of the base,
but it has started to corrode the idea that Donald
Trump is this economic superhero who can never do wrong.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I also want to talk about this idea of being
afraid of Trump. So this weekend we saw Janamels in Maine.
She won against Trump. I'll see you in court. She
saw him any court lost like this is. It's so easy,
don't you know? You can be Gretchen Wibmor hiding behind
(18:47):
a folder, or you can be Janamel's winning in the court.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Which do you want to be?
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Listen? I have said this for years.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
For a long time, there was some argument that I
might be in by saying this, But I've been telling
people for years. He's a fucking bully. If you give
in to him, he will take more of your lunch money.
If you give in to him, he'll beat you up
another time during the day. If you give in to him,
he will keep insulting you. If you give in to him,
(19:17):
he will keep taking a dump.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
In your locker.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
This is a guy who, when he gets caught in
his bullshit and has to really actually demonstrate it, whether
it's his trade stuff we were just talking about, whether
it's the Ukraine War, or whether it's Janet Mills in
Maine beating him on his sacred issue of the trans
athlete stuff, or whether it's these law firms who capitulated
in advance and then now have a court ruling against
(19:42):
Trump saying not only can you never do this, but
it was illegal under the first.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
And the fifth and the sixth amendments. That get the
fuck out of here.
Speaker 6 (19:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:51):
That so he loses much more than he wins, and
they translate the few victories he gives into this bulletproof
image of Donald Trump in the political space that is
just not accurate. People should go after him and punch
him in the nose because frequently works well.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
And also the other thing is that, look this is you.
First of all, it's morally wrong, okay. Second of all,
it's legally dubious, third of all, it's authoritarianism, and fourth
of all it's not working. It's like that we have
every single sort of authoritarian bit. You know, he can't
(20:35):
don't let him be victor or bond. He can't be
it any way, stop at stop a stop it. So
I would say you know worse we got. We got
the mainstream media. But let's have two seconds on what
you think the White House Correspondence Association should be doing.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
They have all been in this I think wrong mindset that,
oh well, if we don't have our place every single
day in the briefing room, we've lost our mojo.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
That's the big get for being in the of course pond.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
What they should be doing is tearing this White House apart.
They should be going after all of the secrets and
the lies, and the corruption and the scamming, and the
backbiting and the infighting and the weirdness. They should be
going after this administration in the battlefield where they belong.
(21:27):
It is not to watch Carolyn Levitt open her lie
hole every day and tell them another fifteen items of
why Donald Trump is the small smartest, handsomest, tallest man
in every room.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
They should be doing their jobs. They should say fuck it.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
If I can't get in the White House, I'm still
going to make phone calls, I'm still going to go
do the work. The old model is something once again
that Trump has hacked. Like a lot of authoritarians, they
use the authoritarians use the tools of democracies to overturn democracy.
The Trump media is using the tools of the news media,
the traditional mainstream media, to break the mainstream media. This
(22:07):
is a foolish battle. They can't win by complaining about, oh, well,
why would you let Tim Poole in the White House?
Even though I don't know who said it, but when
Tim Poole was in there, somebody said the other day,
he looks like he's about to leave the White House
and go have a wrap battle with eminem in eight mile.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
What I love about Tempoole is nothing, but also nothing
that the Beanie.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I like the Beanie.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Well, you know, he's a bald guy. He should just
own it.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I like it's.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Easier that way, a fetching chapeau, if you will.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So the Trump's polling is down, still not probably where
it deserves to be.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
It's about us.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
It's look, it's it's very close to its forty one forty.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I like it when he's thirty eight, that's thirty seven
thirty eight. That's my happy place.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
Yeah, And it has started to really scare the Republicans.
I know Virginia Republicans are trying to find ways.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
To say his name.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
That's a fun story talk about the Virginia gubernatorial.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
All right, Molly, you know this better than I do.
But it just involves naked pictures.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Wait, which one is this? What explain it? Because I've known.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
So there's a Virginia Republican candidate out there who is
caught up in this intramural fight now in the Republican
Party because the Glenn Youngkin wing of the party, which
which whether or not people believe it, he is.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
He's turned out, so fuck them hop right.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
But so so they tried to bump this guy named
John Reid out of the Republican Party because he had
this he had this account on social media.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Actually explicit images of.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Men of gay men and their penises.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yes, yes, And so.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
He's he's running a state wide off for state white office.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
He had a tumblr Tumblr That's what I was trying
to remember what what platform was.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Some of the oldies Kin asked read to drop out
last week.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Right, So they try to get him out of the race.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
And now it's like you've got the trads like young
Kin who want him out. The magas are defending the
guy with the penis picture collection. The evangelicals are nervous
wins seers, who doesn't like the gays is nervous. The
whole thing is like, is like kind of an apotheosis
of where the MAGA movement is. They sucked in all
(24:29):
of this weird flotsam and jetsam into their system after Trump,
all the broken toys and misfit children wandered into two
Maga And so it shouldn't surprise people this is coming up.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Look, if the.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Guy wants to have a collection on his Tumblr account
of men's penises, that is his business. I'm a I'm
libertarian and open minded enough for to say, as long
as it's behind the firewall and the utes can't see it,
that's great.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah. So, I mean, but it's important to remember that
Virginia is it seems like the I mean.
Speaker 5 (25:03):
Nobody ever criticized Steve Bannon for having a scab collection tumbler,
but you know, at.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
The Virginia gubernatorial I just want to do another second
on this because you know it's coming up very soon.
We have Spamburger is I don't know what you pulling
at ten thousand more than the Republican.
Speaker 5 (25:23):
Look, here's the thing. If the Republicans lose Virginia at
the state right level and the legislative level, I will
tell you exactly. On the congressional level, rather, i'll tell
you exactly. There's a two word phrase you should just
say over and over again. That's Elon musk. The fact
that you So, there's been two hundred and sixty seven
thousand federal workers fired or laid off, and about one
hundred and thirty thousand of those people are in the
(25:44):
great state of Virginia in three congressional districts. Yeah, and
every one of those members of Congress has said something
like Alma Ahama and hamanoshould be careful about our job.
They're going to have Elon Musk hung around their necks.
I can tell you this works. I've tested it already.
We're going into the field very soon because these people
(26:05):
are vulnerable as hell. The doge is about as popular
as as has rotten meat in the state of Virginia.
They're going to have to defend it. And the problem,
as always, when you have a cohort in your party
of insane people who spend forty percent of their time
(26:26):
on Twitter every day. When they see someone say, Lord
Elon made a mistake, their natural reaction is to dogpile
them and to attack them, and then you end up
in this thing where where even these MAGA candidates get
interpreted as establishment rhino Cuckshills, and the Maga stay home,
or the magas put up another candidate in a primary,
(26:49):
someone crazier, right right, Yeah, but it's not even about
Trump in Virginia, it's about Doze in these cuts and
then it is bleeding them.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
It is bleeding them savagely.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Right now, it is true Doge.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Just one last caveat about Doge not saving anyone any money.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
No, No, you could have done You could have done
basic financial auditing and saved a lot more money.
Speaker 6 (27:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Hell well.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Jocelyn Benson is the Secretary of State of Michigan and
a candidate for Governor of Michigan and the author of
The Purposeful Warrior, Standing up for what's right when the
stakes are high.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Welcome to past politics. So talk to us about this book. Well,
thanks for having me.
Speaker 7 (27:31):
I'm such a big fan, Nolly and grateful for your
voice right now in this moment. You're a true purposeful warrior,
and that's what my book is about. It started as
my take on what it was like to stand up
to a president and protect the votes of Michigan anders
after the twenty twenty election.
Speaker 6 (27:47):
So those are stories we can all be reminded of
right now. It evolved into a book about the power
we all have to define a better world for ourselves,
the people we love, and the places we call home,
even in turbulent times.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Tell me about what that looks like for you right now,
You're the Secretary of State for the State of Michigan.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
How are you doing that?
Speaker 6 (28:07):
Well, you know, the book is really about how we
all can, in moments of you know, great uncertainty, stay
true to who we are and see turbulent times as
an opportunity to restore our power to define who we are.
So for me in Michigan as Secretary of State on
the chief election off, Sir, that means continuing to stand
(28:28):
up unequivocally in support of the values that we share
as Democrats and the work we all need to do
together to continue protecting democracy. And I'm also running for
governor in a state that voted for Donald Trump and
voted for me twice, and so in this moment, we
have to remember to stand up for who we are
because team democracy and the truth matters. So in this moment,
(28:50):
I think We all have opportunities to be warriors for
who we are, and this book is really a call
to action for all of us to stay true to
it those principles even in times of great challenge.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
So, you guys are in a difficult spot trying to
serve your constituents while protecting them from trump Ism. Can
you try to explain to us what Governor Whitmera is
doing right now?
Speaker 6 (29:11):
That's a question for her more than it is for me.
But at the same time, I believe in this moment
that governors can be whether you're a governor of a
blue state or a purple state, or even a red state,
you can be aligned with who we are and what
matters most. In my case, I'm unequivocal in recognizing that
(29:33):
even in a state like ours, we have to be
clear that we have a responsibility to stand up to
anyone who had threatened the rights and freedoms of our citizens,
even if that person is the President of the United States.
I think it's important for us to hold the line
and also reinforce the reality that the last one hundred
days has wreaked economic havoc in our state and in
(29:57):
our democracy, and so my focus is always to be
willing to work with anyone to get things done for Michiganders,
especially when it boosts our economy and invest in our people.
But we can do that while also being unequivocal and
standing up to anyone who threatens our economy, the economic
prosperity of our residents, and that rites and freedoms of
every citizen. And that is undoubtedly what we're seeing out
(30:19):
of this administration right now.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
How do you do that without looking like your rubber
stamping trump Ism or not even like I understand that
we've seen this, and we saw this in Washington, DC,
done pretty well by by MARYO Bowser. But a lot
of times people will think maybe they're negotiating against Trump
(30:42):
and winning at it, when in fact Trump is absolutely
kind of ensnaring them.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
How do you do that?
Speaker 6 (30:48):
I think the same way for me, I defended our
election as also in twenty twenty, which is refusing to
waiver from the truth. And you know, the truth is
these less hundred days, we've seen reckless economic policies that
have driven up the cost of living in Michigan for
our farmers, for our teachers, for our autoworkers, and those
(31:11):
economic policies have not been good for our state. If
there are opportunities to improve them, great, But as governor,
I would work with other governors and even with other
governments in other countries to find ways to improve the
economic well being of our residents, especially if the actions
that the federal government are taking are only causing more harm.
We've got to stand up and tell our story. We've
(31:33):
got to speak with truth and integrity and courage. But
we cannot waver from those principles, especially in times like these.
And if you reflect on everything that's happened in the
last one hundred days, it's not just the economic pieces.
And I say this as someone who's a staunch defender
of democracy. I've dedicated my whole life to it. We
have seen a real damage done to the very legal, constitutional,
(31:54):
judicial institutions that form the fabric of our democracy, and
we have to all be unequivocal about standing up and
condemning that, because this is not the moment to bendi.
This is the moment to stand proud in defense of
our democracy, our constitution, our country, and in economic in
defense of economic policies that will actually drive out the
(32:15):
cost of living and improve economic opportunity for all all
of those things are aligned to me, and all of
those things is what I'd steadfastly pushed for and push
anyone to stand with me on as governor.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
So what do you say, you know, like the tariffs,
you hope these tariffs coming, some of them are already here.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
How are the tariffs affecting Michigan.
Speaker 6 (32:38):
I think there's a role for tariffs to be carefully
played in different roles, and that's not what's happening here.
What's happening here is the reckless use of tariffs to
further kind of personal vendettas almost and play games with
the economic wellbeing of our residents. So, whether it's merchants
and small business owners, farmers, auto workers, we are all
(32:58):
mired uncertainty and the chaos that this daily evolution of
our tariff's policy has caused so many of our residents
in our state. Yes, we all want to see more
things made in Michigan. Yes, we all want to invest
in our manufacturing prowess. Again, there is a role for
terrorists to play in that. This ain't it, And I
think we have to be very clear about that and
(33:19):
offer our alternative views as to how to do that
by investing in manufacturing and building things in our state
and shifting phones in that regard. But right now, particularly
with our allies in Canada, where so much partnership is
critical for us in Michigan, tariffs and the evolving uncertainty
of the tariffs have only created economic havoc in our state.
And my hope is that we see an end to
(33:39):
that soon. But we need adults in the room making
these policies at the federal level.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So what can the state do at this moment to
protect constituents from Trump? I mean we see ices arresting
grad students, putting them in detention facilities.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
I mean, they have a.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Very kind of they're not so into do process anymore,
and in fact they're running about with the Supreme Court
on that. What can you do as a state official
besides protecting votes, what can you do to protect constituents?
Speaker 6 (34:13):
Well, first, it means we're recognizing as policies merge out
of the federal government, using everything we have at the
state level to protect our residents, whether it is investing
in our schools, shifting more funds that have been taken
away for service projects into service projects in our state,
we're just at the beginning of seeing the devast station
(34:34):
that all of these cuts are having on services from
everything from service providers in our state, to educators in
our state, to auto workers and to farmers, and so
as a state, we can do what we can to
eliminate wasteful spending and bureaucracy, to make the cost of
starting a business less, to make it easier for people
to build houses and meet their homes, and eliminate costly
(34:56):
regulations that stand in the way of that. But in
this specific moment that a lot of it it is
just kind of keeping track of the chaos coming out
of Washington right now and then developing a policy to
protect people from that as it becomes more clear what's
actually happening. But the other thing that's emerged over these
last one hundred days, I think is the recognition of
all of us as Americans, not just governors, although I
(35:18):
think governors have a critical role to play in this moment,
but all of us as Americans to not bend the knee,
to not allow what we're seeing come out of Washington
to define who we are, to retain our power to
define who we are, and fight to restore those values
of inclusion, of equality, of justice, of fairness, to the
(35:39):
way our economy and our country operates and our democracy operates.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I really like you and think you're really a smart politician.
But when I interview you, and you do a thing
which a lot of democratic politicians do, which is you'd
say a lot of things, but you don't necessarily answer
questions in a way that might be more of a
sort of nor won't speak. Do you think that that
hurts democrats? I want to take the case of Harris
(36:05):
for a minute. She did some interviews, but really not
nearly as many as Donald Trump, and when she did,
she did a similar thing of talking but being.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Very careful with her words.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Do you think that it actually ultimately hurts democratic politicians
to be so careful with their words.
Speaker 6 (36:23):
So I've spent every day of my career delivering results
for the people of Michigan and fighting to make sure
that every voice is heard in our democracy, and every
step of the way, I've thought to ensure that our
government is accountable. I've fought to protect our freedoms against
people who have come to my home with guns to
try to take me off my post. I in my
(36:44):
understand that you Democrats need to do. No, no, no.
What Democrats need to do is deliver the results. And
that's what we have done in Michigan to reform as
Secretary of State's office, to make things work better, to
protect people's rights at the ballot box. So you know,
I'm a professor and an educator by training, and I'm
not a politician. I'm not going to give you talking points.
(37:06):
I'm not going to give you words and buzz words
of the day. I am going to go into the
details about what we're action doing to deliver results for
the people of Michigan and what I would do as governor.
But at the same time, I think the more we
can deliver those results driven experiences for people instead of
just talk, then we can rebuild our party so that
more people can see that we are the party of
getting things done. And I do think governors and state
(37:28):
leaders or unique position to be able to do that.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
No, I know, and I see. I know that you
were a Dean of Wayne State lawyer, teacher. I want
you to win, and I know that you and Governor
Wimera have had really horrendous experiences including her I mean
with the Michigan militia. I mean, there are some, really,
but I just wonder it's a little more clarity. I
(37:53):
would love more to hang on to, just a little
more of the sort of nuts and bolts of the
experience of a lot of electeds. So what we see
is that when we do these interviews with electeds, people
don't really connect a lot of times, and they get
really low ratings. And I think some of that is
because they don't feel they get a lot of information.
Speaker 6 (38:16):
Yeah, it's helpful at feedback. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yeah, we're obviously going to do it, and we need
to do it, and it's we do academics, we do.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
We don't do this for the ratings per se. Like,
I know what you want and I understand that. Look,
do I want you to be governor? One hundred percent?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Do I think that you are as smart and as
competent as anyone running for governor anywhere?
Speaker 2 (38:38):
One hundred percent. I think that voters want more to
hang on to.
Speaker 6 (38:42):
I think what voters want to hang on to, our
leaders are going to drive down the cost of living,
increase their wages and economic opportunity, and make their lives easier.
My office works to meet people where they are, save
them times, save them money, and help them get on
with their day. Whether it's small business leaders we need
to be able to open that small bug business without
having to pay five thousand dollars in regulations and loti
(39:03):
you do so, or homeowners that need to be able
to keep their homes. And what I'm actually hearing from
the people of Michigan is that they want leaders who
are going to get stuff done. And that's what I've
done throughout my career proudly, regardless of who and how
powerful the person is who tries to stand up miling.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
It's a good point.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
So give us one last thing about what you learned
writing this book.
Speaker 6 (39:24):
Well, I think first, no one has the power to
define who we are. Only we have that power. And
even in challenging, uncertain moments, we always have that power
to decide how we'll respond to turbulent times and what
we're going to do. So what this book really is
actually is a call to action for every American citizen
in this moment to stand up and be warriors on
behalf of ourselves those we love in the communities we
(39:47):
call home. That's what it's going to take to really
restore our country and rebuild our economy. And my hope
is that readers in this book will learn from me
about how I've learned to choose courage over fear, how
I've learned to be resilient and persevere in the face
of great tragedy, and in doing so we can together
build a community of warriors who can help restore our
(40:07):
country and truly make it great.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, great point. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 6 (40:13):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
No moment, Rick Wilson.
Speaker 6 (40:21):
Mollie john Fast, what is your moment of fuck ray?
Speaker 5 (40:25):
That would be Pope Flatulus, the first Donald Trump tell.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Us why you have fit? This moment is your.
Speaker 5 (40:31):
Moment I find Look, I America is a nation founded
on religious diversity. And I know the word the d
word offends the magi at scale, but it really legitimately
was founded on religious diversity. Go back and read George
Washington's letter to the Connecticut Synagogue.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, I'm sure they're going to be doing that.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
I'm sure they're going to dig that right up.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
But he talked about freedom of religion as far back
as that, and for the MAGA is one of their
articles of fate for the last few years haha has
been how dare you insult our Christian faith? And then
Donald Trump posts a picture of himself as the next
Pope from the official White House Twitter account. I don't
know how hot the hinges of Hell are. It's a
(41:12):
phrase we use here in the South right frequently, but
I suspect if that doesn't qualify as full on white
hot blasphemy.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Does Rick Wilson white hot blasphemy.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Watch the documentary Conclave in the Near Future in Conclave
Too Electric Boogaloo.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best
minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If
you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.
Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds, and Elon Musk says it's outrageous to
claim he's a Nazi. We have such a great show
for you today, The Lincoln Project zwn Rick Wilson joins
us to discuss Trump's increasingly deranged media appearances. Then we'll
(00:24):
talk to Michigan Secretary of State Johncelyn Benson about her
new book, The Purposeful Warrior, standing up for what's right
when the stakes are high.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
But first the news.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
My mister Trump back of the day. We used to
call people in public office who change their opinion on
things foot flopper. Now we just see it as a
normal thing. And he is foot flopped on firing Jerome
Powell after many, many stern words about him.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So Jerome Powell is basically what is standing between.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Us and dollar flight?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Okay, dollar flight is when the world gives up the
dollar as the default currency and goes into the Euro
or something else. Part of the American exceptionalism is that,
for some reason, people think that our currency is the safest.
If Donald Trump continues his behavior, as you know, disappearing
(01:17):
grad students and acting like we're an emerging government or
the global South, or a country that, you know, South America,
a sort of country that has a continent that has
less of this sort of structural democracy that we have
in this country.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Then if Trump keeps doing this.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Then people will stop using the dollar as their default currency.
Our debt will get more expensive to service. We already
have enormous debt in this country, and it will be
real bad, and everything will be more expensive, and we
won't be able to live in quite the way we've
been living. And it just no one wants dollar flight,
which is why we really want Donald Trump to keep
(02:02):
Jerome Powell. Now, the good news is Jerome Palell is
not interested in leaving. Like with so many things in
this Trump administration, it's not even clear that Trump can
fire Jerome Palell, just like it's not even clear that
he could deport those immigrants. Everything Trump is doing, or
at least much of what Trump is doing, will ultimately
(02:24):
be reversed by the laws or the next president. So
he's basically, I think, very much threatening something he can't do.
Now that said, Powell's term as FED chair ends in
May twenty twenty six, and that I think is important
because in May twenty twenty six, we will still be
(02:46):
before the midterms, so that's not going to be good.
But in twenty twenty six, god knows who Donald Trump
will put in this job. By the way, I just
want for two seconds to talk about what's happened at
the IRS, because I think it's important. I would like
to read a paragraph from the Economist about what's happening
(03:06):
at the IRS right now, because I think it's really
important to realize that these people have no idea what
they're doing. Okay, Basically, they put a guy in charge
of the IRS who was a MAGA hero after he
alleged that the IRS was slow walking its investigation into
Hunter Biden. He was ousted because Scott Besst, the Treasury Secretary,
(03:28):
said his name is mister Shapelee. He was installed by
Elon Musk, and he was asked by dissent. Then he
had replaced someone else who had resigned because Musk had
offered a deferred resignation to her. She had replaced someone
who was Trump's first acting commissioner, Douglas O'Donnell, who retired
(03:51):
early after a month in the post. Okay, so we
are now at the fourth or fifth head of the irs.
So I want to point out like, even when Trump
World can replace these people, a lot of the time,
the people that he picks are incompetent or unable or
unwilling to do what he wants.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Great stuff. Speaking of how bad things are going, mister
Trump did this interview with Kristin Milker that you're going
to talk about more with Rick Wilson and just a bit,
and I found this piece one of the more laughable moments.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
When does it become the Trump economy?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
It partially is, right now, I think the good parts
of the Trump economy and the bad parts of the
Biden economy. Yes, the good parts are the Trump economy
and the bad parts are the Biden economy. Look, that
interview is worth listening to because this guy not only
is he the president, he's the president with the most
(04:47):
presidential power basically ever, because he's consolidated presidential power. So
he's somewhere between president and pope. As he posted this
weekend when he posted pictures of himself the pope. Yeah,
not good, not good, but you know it is good.
Jesse Cannon, what's that that my man is losing in
(05:09):
the court of law.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I will say, you know, we often brag about things
we saw coming. Our worst fears before he was elected
was that this would not happen. So I am emboldened
by you know, he always talks about how we're going
to be tired of winning.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
That's not what's happened to him in the court.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Jesse and I have been through a lot.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I feel like Jesse has been through more than I
have because I don't know, I'm like a little bit
less sensitive to the horrors that are our American political
system right now.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
But let's just go through it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Jesse and I have been writing and talking and podcasting
about the Alien Enemies Act.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Forever and ever and ever.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
We thought it was a pretty weak sauce because the
whole idea is it's always been used during wartime War
of eighteen twelve, World War One, world War two, at
all these different times they were able to use this
Act because it was part of what happens when you're
at war. Trump wanted to say, we were at war
(06:05):
with this gang in Nicaragua who no one had ever
fucking heard of until Trump took office. Turns out courts
are like yet so that is gonna that's already been
next and will only be more deportations to countries other
than a migrants country of origin. Also yet, so that
(06:26):
is again probably a pretty good sign that Trump is
losing temporary protective status of people fleeing humanitarian crisis is
also Trump is Yet the courts say no diice. And
then of course there are the guys who are still
rotting at Seacott, and those guys the courts want returned.
(06:51):
So again, you know, also disappearing foreign students can't do
that anymore. One has been released more to come under
outably if we can ever get them out full time.
Foreign students had to send back their immigration visas, not
allowed to pull them, warrantless to rest in California, And
(07:11):
yet refugee admissions got to do it. And the birthright
citizenship case is going to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I bet you a gazillion dollars.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
That the Supreme Court says, no, you don't get to
overturn by birthright citizenship. So so far a lot of
the Heritage Foundation's work has been undermined, and we love
to see it. We are delighted to see the Heritage
Foundation lose delightful.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So, Molly, we did an amazing interview last week with
the New York Times Peter Goodman on supply chains. I
know it's not the most exciting subject.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
But we really killed it.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Let us congratulate ourselves again for that, because we really
did kill it.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
You know what, it's getting views on YouTube and you're
talking supply chains, you know you did something right. Anyway,
it seems that there's gonna be a lot of very
odd products that are not gonna be on the shelves
or doubling in price very soon, and it's not feeling
so good for mister Trump's approval rating.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So here's the thing which I don't think Trump's approval
rating has yet been exposed to, because we have been
warning people about it.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
But no one's only seen it.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And this is another point where you know, we're warning people,
but people haven't actually experienced it. Until you experience it,
you're not going to really understand what it is. So
here's here's what's going on. There are things that are
made in China that are not made in the United States.
By tariffing them, you have just made them more expensive.
(08:38):
You have not made factories to make them in the
United States. So we're about to have a real problem.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Now.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I want to go back to Amazon. Amazon has made
everything a lot cheaper by selling a lot of Chinese goods.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Right now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
What Amazon wanted to do was put next to prices,
how much more tariffs we're going to make them?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
But Trump said no. Was very mad.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Mister Bezos, who has blue origin, wants to put famous
people on mars. He caved or his people cave. There
will not be a sort of like this should be
four bucks, but because of tariffs, it's eight Here's the problem.
It's still going to be eight bucks. So it may
not say that tariffs are causing it, but people are
(09:24):
about to realize that things are about to get more expensive.
And we're also going to have some empty shelves for
stuff that isn't made in the state. So Americans tend
not to like it when things cost more money for
no reason.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So we're going to see how this plays. M Rick
Wilson is the founder of Lincoln Project and the host
of the Enemy's List.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
It's a Sunday, and Sunday means that Rick Wilson and
Jesse Roast may congratulations. Let's go Rick Wilson Sunday, President
of the United States on Meet the Press with Kristen Welker,
And he doesn't know if he's supposed to uphold the Constitution.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
You know, he has sworn that oath twice now, he.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Had his fingers crossed both.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
But then again, he's been married three times and he
swore an oath then too, And he signed about a
jillion contract in his life and he never followed any
of those. So my only question to my conservative friends
who are like the constitution, go him first.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Really does it? Does it?
Speaker 5 (10:30):
Or or or or are we now in it? Are
we now just gonna not even pretend anymore? We're just
gonna go all in.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
We're in post constitutionalism.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
We're in post a lot of things right now.
Speaker 5 (10:40):
And I think I think the dumbest part of this
is expecting that Trump will ever follow anything that doesn't
make him money, make him feel like he's the center
of attention, or titillate him in some way.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I think the best moment, the best, the most sort
of meaning full moment of that interview was him saying
was him explaining that he has no idea how trade
works at all?
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Yeah? Correct? Correct? Correct? He he really is? He really is.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
That was a guy, and he's a guy that people
in the White House shouldn't know that he thinks he's
he thinks he's great with the press, and increasingly, unless
it is spoon fed to him like like vanilla pudding,
not so good. I mean, that was not an impressive
answer on trade or the economy because he doesn't understand
anything about anything at all.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
There's no there there.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
And and you know, if you were a Trump supporter
watching that, you know, just arguing, do you had to
say to yourself, Well, the boss could have answered that
a little more effectively. Oh fuck, I gotta go to
the store and buy beans and can goods because we're
all going to starve this winter.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So it was not a good So let's talk about
this for a second, because this is the thing that
it feels like we're careening towards right now. We still
have empty container ships coming in right in the ports
of Los Angeles Long Beach. Some these are sort of
next week and the week after that's after the tariffs.
(12:12):
So if you were in the water when the on
Liberation Day, you weren't tariffed. But if you were heading
in the water the day after Liberation day, you're on
the list. As we say in you know an economists
speak fucked so now.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Ges that is a technical term that Fred Kayak wrote
often about the.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Discussion exactly so now he's fucked. Right, we have China cheat,
There is no there is nothing, we have no.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
Day like the Chinese is correctly read that Trump would
do one stupid thing after another, double down on the
stupid thing. Right, take the stupid thing out on a date,
fuck it in the backseat of his car, get it pregnant,
and then become a baby daddy to the stupid things
son of the stupid thing. This guy, they played him
like a fiddle, and they continue to play him like
(13:04):
a fiddle.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
We have no deal with no ninety ninety deals in
ninety days, right, zero, No Japan, no Indian.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
I don't think we have any actual deals. I mean
maybe like with so Toe or somewhere.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
I don't think we have I don't think we have
any deal.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
So we have nothing and we have This all goes
into effect on July seventh, Okay, July seventh, we have
again right now, we still have one hundred and fifty
percent tariffs on China. So you know, everybody sort of stockpiled.
A lot of vendors have stockpiled. Now we are going
(13:40):
we're sort of where I think about two weeks two
three weeks from starting to really have empty shelves. Okay,
we have no trade deals, we have no plan here.
Even if tomorrow Donald Trump says to Chi, I give up, uncle,
let's restart, let's end the tariffs, we will still have
a post COVID inflationary spike the way we did last time.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
There's no question, there is no question.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
And he's weakened to the US dollar at the same time,
so foreign goods are going to cost more because of
the tariffs. The weaker dollar is going to reduce our
ability to grow the economy.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Our dead is going to get more expensive because there.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Are inflationary pressures are going to in the best case,
the Fed is going to have to put the brakes
on any idea about reducing rates. Again, none of this
had to happen, but it all ended up having to
happen because Trump. I mean, when these mistakes they concatenate,
they pile on top of one another, and they don't
(14:41):
just like they're not they're not additive, they multiply.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
They're like logarithmic.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
The more mistakes he makes, the more they compound all
the previous mistakes. So we're in for you know, everybody
should pray for a shitty recession.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
That's the good scenario.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yes, And the market has sort of gone back to
pre Liberation day numbers, right. The stocks are sort of
backup because they think that the FED is going to
cut interest rates. The Fed is not going to cut
interest rates because our FED chair is actually smart and
remembers the nineteen eighties and stagflation.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Now, what is.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Going to happen is despite not having a FED cut,
we are going to still probably have staflation because things
are going to get more expensive and we're going to
head into a recession, and that will mean that we
will be in a moment that is almost unfixable stagulation
because you can't cut interest rates because things get more expensive,
(15:45):
and you can't lower interest rates because then things will
get more inflationary.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
This box he has put us in just about the
only thing that will undo this, and it won't undo
all the damage, but has to be basically a blood
sacrifice of this issue. Trump has to say, and we
all know how likely this is, which is to say zero.
Oh god, this was a fucking a mistake. I fired
Peter Navarro and Howard Lunnink. They're fucking idiots. They led
(16:11):
me down a wrong path. This country believes in and
in free trade, and we're gonna work with our international
friends and allies and partners and trading partners, and we're
going to restore trade relations across the board. That's gonna
be my main job from now on. Forget all this
other crap. I've got to get our economy moving again.
That's how you would fix it if you were a
if you believed in fixing it.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
He does not.
Speaker 5 (16:33):
He has he's starting to dig in. I don't mean
just like the oh well maybe they get two dollars
instead of thirty that stuff. I think he's starting to
believe that this this rhetoric he's been using. Oh there's
gonna be some pain first. We've got to get tougher.
We've got to tough en up. We've got a reindustrial
None of the things he thinks are gonna happen have happened,
(16:55):
and they will not happen because this theory was broken from.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
The beginning, right, I mean, the idea that you would
ontour manufacturing by making things more expensive is not ever
how it was going to go. And you could have
done this. I think had you done this in nineteen seventy,
it might have worked, sure, but you can't do it now.
And also the lack of certainty is going to keep
people from building factories in the United States, especially for
(17:22):
things that Americans don't even want, these jobs.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
I mean, that's why this is so insane.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
And honestly, we have we made an accommodation in this
country a long time ago, and Trump never, ever, ever, ever,
ever mentions it. We have a trade deficit on material
goods and a wild vast global trade surplus on services.
Now that those are going to take a big hit too,
because the world understands the way the game is. They
(17:49):
understand that the only way to defeat Trump is to
cause so much economic pain in America that he loses power.
He has lost a lot of his power in the
last few weeks because the mojo he had with his
base from the very started from twenty fifteen. He knows
the economy, he's a businessman, he's really smart. He knows
(18:11):
that to negotiate, and now he looks like a fool
every day that has started to corrode. It's not everybody,
it's not even the majority of the of the base,
but it has started to corrode the idea that Donald
Trump is this economic superhero who can never do wrong.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I also want to talk about this idea of being
afraid of Trump. So this weekend we saw Janamels in Maine.
She won against Trump. I'll see you in court. She
saw him any court lost like this is. It's so easy,
don't you know? You can be Gretchen Wibmor hiding behind
(18:47):
a folder, or you can be Janamel's winning in the court.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Which do you want to be?
Speaker 4 (18:53):
Listen? I have said this for years.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
For a long time, there was some argument that I
might be in by saying this, But I've been telling
people for years. He's a fucking bully. If you give
in to him, he will take more of your lunch money.
If you give in to him, he'll beat you up
another time during the day. If you give in to him,
he will keep insulting you. If you give in to him,
(19:17):
he will keep taking a dump.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
In your locker.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
This is a guy who, when he gets caught in
his bullshit and has to really actually demonstrate it, whether
it's his trade stuff we were just talking about, whether
it's the Ukraine War, or whether it's Janet Mills in
Maine beating him on his sacred issue of the trans
athlete stuff, or whether it's these law firms who capitulated
in advance and then now have a court ruling against
(19:42):
Trump saying not only can you never do this, but
it was illegal under the first.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
And the fifth and the sixth amendments. That get the
fuck out of here.
Speaker 6 (19:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:51):
That so he loses much more than he wins, and
they translate the few victories he gives into this bulletproof
image of Donald Trump in the political space that is
just not accurate. People should go after him and punch
him in the nose because frequently works well.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
And also the other thing is that, look this is you.
First of all, it's morally wrong, okay. Second of all,
it's legally dubious, third of all, it's authoritarianism, and fourth
of all it's not working. It's like that we have
every single sort of authoritarian bit. You know, he can't
(20:35):
don't let him be victor or bond. He can't be
it any way, stop at stop a stop it. So
I would say you know worse we got. We got
the mainstream media. But let's have two seconds on what
you think the White House Correspondence Association should be doing.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
They have all been in this I think wrong mindset that,
oh well, if we don't have our place every single
day in the briefing room, we've lost our mojo.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
That's the big get for being in the of course pond.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
What they should be doing is tearing this White House apart.
They should be going after all of the secrets and
the lies, and the corruption and the scamming, and the
backbiting and the infighting and the weirdness. They should be
going after this administration in the battlefield where they belong.
(21:27):
It is not to watch Carolyn Levitt open her lie
hole every day and tell them another fifteen items of
why Donald Trump is the small smartest, handsomest, tallest man
in every room.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
They should be doing their jobs. They should say fuck it.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
If I can't get in the White House, I'm still
going to make phone calls, I'm still going to go
do the work. The old model is something once again
that Trump has hacked. Like a lot of authoritarians, they
use the authoritarians use the tools of democracies to overturn democracy.
The Trump media is using the tools of the news media,
the traditional mainstream media, to break the mainstream media. This
(22:07):
is a foolish battle. They can't win by complaining about, oh, well,
why would you let Tim Poole in the White House?
Even though I don't know who said it, but when
Tim Poole was in there, somebody said the other day,
he looks like he's about to leave the White House
and go have a wrap battle with eminem in eight mile.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
What I love about Tempoole is nothing, but also nothing
that the Beanie.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I like the Beanie.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
Well, you know, he's a bald guy. He should just
own it.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I like it's.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Easier that way, a fetching chapeau, if you will.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So the Trump's polling is down, still not probably where
it deserves to be.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
It's about us.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
It's look, it's it's very close to its forty one forty.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
I like it when he's thirty eight, that's thirty seven
thirty eight. That's my happy place.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
Yeah, And it has started to really scare the Republicans.
I know Virginia Republicans are trying to find ways.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
To say his name.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
That's a fun story talk about the Virginia gubernatorial.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
All right, Molly, you know this better than I do.
But it just involves naked pictures.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Wait, which one is this? What explain it? Because I've known.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
So there's a Virginia Republican candidate out there who is
caught up in this intramural fight now in the Republican
Party because the Glenn Youngkin wing of the party, which
which whether or not people believe it, he is.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
He's turned out, so fuck them hop right.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
But so so they tried to bump this guy named
John Reid out of the Republican Party because he had
this he had this account on social media.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Actually explicit images of.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
Men of gay men and their penises.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yes, yes, And so.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
He's he's running a state wide off for state white office.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
He had a tumblr Tumblr That's what I was trying
to remember what what platform was.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Some of the oldies Kin asked read to drop out
last week.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Right, So they try to get him out of the race.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
And now it's like you've got the trads like young
Kin who want him out. The magas are defending the
guy with the penis picture collection. The evangelicals are nervous
wins seers, who doesn't like the gays is nervous. The
whole thing is like, is like kind of an apotheosis
of where the MAGA movement is. They sucked in all
(24:29):
of this weird flotsam and jetsam into their system after Trump,
all the broken toys and misfit children wandered into two
Maga And so it shouldn't surprise people this is coming up.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
Look, if the.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Guy wants to have a collection on his Tumblr account
of men's penises, that is his business. I'm a I'm
libertarian and open minded enough for to say, as long
as it's behind the firewall and the utes can't see it,
that's great.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah. So, I mean, but it's important to remember that
Virginia is it seems like the I mean.
Speaker 5 (25:03):
Nobody ever criticized Steve Bannon for having a scab collection tumbler,
but you know, at.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
The Virginia gubernatorial I just want to do another second
on this because you know it's coming up very soon.
We have Spamburger is I don't know what you pulling
at ten thousand more than the Republican.
Speaker 5 (25:23):
Look, here's the thing. If the Republicans lose Virginia at
the state right level and the legislative level, I will
tell you exactly. On the congressional level, rather, i'll tell
you exactly. There's a two word phrase you should just
say over and over again. That's Elon musk. The fact
that you So, there's been two hundred and sixty seven
thousand federal workers fired or laid off, and about one
hundred and thirty thousand of those people are in the
(25:44):
great state of Virginia in three congressional districts. Yeah, and
every one of those members of Congress has said something
like Alma Ahama and hamanoshould be careful about our job.
They're going to have Elon Musk hung around their necks.
I can tell you this works. I've tested it already.
We're going into the field very soon because these people
(26:05):
are vulnerable as hell. The doge is about as popular
as as has rotten meat in the state of Virginia.
They're going to have to defend it. And the problem,
as always, when you have a cohort in your party
of insane people who spend forty percent of their time
(26:26):
on Twitter every day. When they see someone say, Lord
Elon made a mistake, their natural reaction is to dogpile
them and to attack them, and then you end up
in this thing where where even these MAGA candidates get
interpreted as establishment rhino Cuckshills, and the Maga stay home,
or the magas put up another candidate in a primary,
(26:49):
someone crazier, right right, Yeah, but it's not even about
Trump in Virginia, it's about Doze in these cuts and
then it is bleeding them.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
It is bleeding them savagely.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Right now, it is true Doge.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Just one last caveat about Doge not saving anyone any money.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
No, No, you could have done You could have done
basic financial auditing and saved a lot more money.
Speaker 6 (27:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
Hell well.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Jocelyn Benson is the Secretary of State of Michigan and
a candidate for Governor of Michigan and the author of
The Purposeful Warrior, Standing up for what's right when the
stakes are high.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Welcome to past politics. So talk to us about this book. Well,
thanks for having me.
Speaker 7 (27:31):
I'm such a big fan, Nolly and grateful for your
voice right now in this moment. You're a true purposeful warrior,
and that's what my book is about. It started as
my take on what it was like to stand up
to a president and protect the votes of Michigan anders
after the twenty twenty election.
Speaker 6 (27:47):
So those are stories we can all be reminded of
right now. It evolved into a book about the power
we all have to define a better world for ourselves,
the people we love, and the places we call home,
even in turbulent times.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Tell me about what that looks like for you right now,
You're the Secretary of State for the State of Michigan.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
How are you doing that?
Speaker 6 (28:07):
Well, you know, the book is really about how we
all can, in moments of you know, great uncertainty, stay
true to who we are and see turbulent times as
an opportunity to restore our power to define who we are.
So for me in Michigan as Secretary of State on
the chief election off, Sir, that means continuing to stand
(28:28):
up unequivocally in support of the values that we share
as Democrats and the work we all need to do
together to continue protecting democracy. And I'm also running for
governor in a state that voted for Donald Trump and
voted for me twice, and so in this moment, we
have to remember to stand up for who we are
because team democracy and the truth matters. So in this moment,
(28:50):
I think We all have opportunities to be warriors for
who we are, and this book is really a call
to action for all of us to stay true to
it those principles even in times of great challenge.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
So, you guys are in a difficult spot trying to
serve your constituents while protecting them from trump Ism. Can
you try to explain to us what Governor Whitmera is
doing right now?
Speaker 6 (29:11):
That's a question for her more than it is for me.
But at the same time, I believe in this moment
that governors can be whether you're a governor of a
blue state or a purple state, or even a red state,
you can be aligned with who we are and what
matters most. In my case, I'm unequivocal in recognizing that
(29:33):
even in a state like ours, we have to be
clear that we have a responsibility to stand up to
anyone who had threatened the rights and freedoms of our citizens,
even if that person is the President of the United States.
I think it's important for us to hold the line
and also reinforce the reality that the last one hundred
days has wreaked economic havoc in our state and in
(29:57):
our democracy, and so my focus is always to be
willing to work with anyone to get things done for Michiganders,
especially when it boosts our economy and invest in our people.
But we can do that while also being unequivocal and
standing up to anyone who threatens our economy, the economic
prosperity of our residents, and that rites and freedoms of
every citizen. And that is undoubtedly what we're seeing out
(30:19):
of this administration right now.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
How do you do that without looking like your rubber
stamping trump Ism or not even like I understand that
we've seen this, and we saw this in Washington, DC,
done pretty well by by MARYO Bowser. But a lot
of times people will think maybe they're negotiating against Trump
(30:42):
and winning at it, when in fact Trump is absolutely
kind of ensnaring them.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
How do you do that?
Speaker 6 (30:48):
I think the same way for me, I defended our
election as also in twenty twenty, which is refusing to
waiver from the truth. And you know, the truth is
these less hundred days, we've seen reckless economic policies that
have driven up the cost of living in Michigan for
our farmers, for our teachers, for our autoworkers, and those
(31:11):
economic policies have not been good for our state. If
there are opportunities to improve them, great, But as governor,
I would work with other governors and even with other
governments in other countries to find ways to improve the
economic well being of our residents, especially if the actions
that the federal government are taking are only causing more harm.
We've got to stand up and tell our story. We've
(31:33):
got to speak with truth and integrity and courage. But
we cannot waver from those principles, especially in times like these.
And if you reflect on everything that's happened in the
last one hundred days, it's not just the economic pieces.
And I say this as someone who's a staunch defender
of democracy. I've dedicated my whole life to it. We
have seen a real damage done to the very legal, constitutional,
(31:54):
judicial institutions that form the fabric of our democracy, and
we have to all be unequivocal about standing up and
condemning that, because this is not the moment to bendi.
This is the moment to stand proud in defense of
our democracy, our constitution, our country, and in economic in
defense of economic policies that will actually drive out the
(32:15):
cost of living and improve economic opportunity for all all
of those things are aligned to me, and all of
those things is what I'd steadfastly pushed for and push
anyone to stand with me on as governor.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
So what do you say, you know, like the tariffs,
you hope these tariffs coming, some of them are already here.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
How are the tariffs affecting Michigan.
Speaker 6 (32:38):
I think there's a role for tariffs to be carefully
played in different roles, and that's not what's happening here.
What's happening here is the reckless use of tariffs to
further kind of personal vendettas almost and play games with
the economic wellbeing of our residents. So, whether it's merchants
and small business owners, farmers, auto workers, we are all
(32:58):
mired uncertainty and the chaos that this daily evolution of
our tariff's policy has caused so many of our residents
in our state. Yes, we all want to see more
things made in Michigan. Yes, we all want to invest
in our manufacturing prowess. Again, there is a role for
terrorists to play in that. This ain't it, And I
think we have to be very clear about that and
(33:19):
offer our alternative views as to how to do that
by investing in manufacturing and building things in our state
and shifting phones in that regard. But right now, particularly
with our allies in Canada, where so much partnership is
critical for us in Michigan, tariffs and the evolving uncertainty
of the tariffs have only created economic havoc in our state.
And my hope is that we see an end to
(33:39):
that soon. But we need adults in the room making
these policies at the federal level.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So what can the state do at this moment to
protect constituents from Trump? I mean we see ices arresting
grad students, putting them in detention facilities.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
I mean, they have a.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Very kind of they're not so into do process anymore,
and in fact they're running about with the Supreme Court
on that. What can you do as a state official
besides protecting votes, what can you do to protect constituents?
Speaker 6 (34:13):
Well, first, it means we're recognizing as policies merge out
of the federal government, using everything we have at the
state level to protect our residents, whether it is investing
in our schools, shifting more funds that have been taken
away for service projects into service projects in our state,
we're just at the beginning of seeing the devast station
(34:34):
that all of these cuts are having on services from
everything from service providers in our state, to educators in
our state, to auto workers and to farmers, and so
as a state, we can do what we can to
eliminate wasteful spending and bureaucracy, to make the cost of
starting a business less, to make it easier for people
to build houses and meet their homes, and eliminate costly
(34:56):
regulations that stand in the way of that. But in
this specific moment that a lot of it it is
just kind of keeping track of the chaos coming out
of Washington right now and then developing a policy to
protect people from that as it becomes more clear what's
actually happening. But the other thing that's emerged over these
last one hundred days, I think is the recognition of
all of us as Americans, not just governors, although I
(35:18):
think governors have a critical role to play in this moment,
but all of us as Americans to not bend the knee,
to not allow what we're seeing come out of Washington
to define who we are, to retain our power to
define who we are, and fight to restore those values
of inclusion, of equality, of justice, of fairness, to the
(35:39):
way our economy and our country operates and our democracy operates.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I really like you and think you're really a smart politician.
But when I interview you, and you do a thing
which a lot of democratic politicians do, which is you'd
say a lot of things, but you don't necessarily answer
questions in a way that might be more of a
sort of nor won't speak. Do you think that that
hurts democrats? I want to take the case of Harris
(36:05):
for a minute. She did some interviews, but really not
nearly as many as Donald Trump, and when she did,
she did a similar thing of talking but being.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Very careful with her words.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Do you think that it actually ultimately hurts democratic politicians
to be so careful with their words.
Speaker 6 (36:23):
So I've spent every day of my career delivering results
for the people of Michigan and fighting to make sure
that every voice is heard in our democracy, and every
step of the way, I've thought to ensure that our
government is accountable. I've fought to protect our freedoms against
people who have come to my home with guns to
try to take me off my post. I in my
(36:44):
understand that you Democrats need to do. No, no, no.
What Democrats need to do is deliver the results. And
that's what we have done in Michigan to reform as
Secretary of State's office, to make things work better, to
protect people's rights at the ballot box. So you know,
I'm a professor and an educator by training, and I'm
not a politician. I'm not going to give you talking points.
(37:06):
I'm not going to give you words and buzz words
of the day. I am going to go into the
details about what we're action doing to deliver results for
the people of Michigan and what I would do as governor.
But at the same time, I think the more we
can deliver those results driven experiences for people instead of
just talk, then we can rebuild our party so that
more people can see that we are the party of
getting things done. And I do think governors and state
(37:28):
leaders or unique position to be able to do that.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
No, I know, and I see. I know that you
were a Dean of Wayne State lawyer, teacher. I want
you to win, and I know that you and Governor
Wimera have had really horrendous experiences including her I mean
with the Michigan militia. I mean, there are some, really,
but I just wonder it's a little more clarity. I
(37:53):
would love more to hang on to, just a little
more of the sort of nuts and bolts of the
experience of a lot of electeds. So what we see
is that when we do these interviews with electeds, people
don't really connect a lot of times, and they get
really low ratings. And I think some of that is
because they don't feel they get a lot of information.
Speaker 6 (38:16):
Yeah, it's helpful at feedback. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yeah, we're obviously going to do it, and we need
to do it, and it's we do academics, we do.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
We don't do this for the ratings per se. Like,
I know what you want and I understand that. Look,
do I want you to be governor? One hundred percent?
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Do I think that you are as smart and as
competent as anyone running for governor anywhere?
Speaker 2 (38:38):
One hundred percent. I think that voters want more to
hang on to.
Speaker 6 (38:42):
I think what voters want to hang on to, our
leaders are going to drive down the cost of living,
increase their wages and economic opportunity, and make their lives easier.
My office works to meet people where they are, save
them times, save them money, and help them get on
with their day. Whether it's small business leaders we need
to be able to open that small bug business without
having to pay five thousand dollars in regulations and loti
(39:03):
you do so, or homeowners that need to be able
to keep their homes. And what I'm actually hearing from
the people of Michigan is that they want leaders who
are going to get stuff done. And that's what I've
done throughout my career proudly, regardless of who and how
powerful the person is who tries to stand up miling.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
It's a good point.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
So give us one last thing about what you learned
writing this book.
Speaker 6 (39:24):
Well, I think first, no one has the power to
define who we are. Only we have that power. And
even in challenging, uncertain moments, we always have that power
to decide how we'll respond to turbulent times and what
we're going to do. So what this book really is
actually is a call to action for every American citizen
in this moment to stand up and be warriors on
behalf of ourselves those we love in the communities we
(39:47):
call home. That's what it's going to take to really
restore our country and rebuild our economy. And my hope
is that readers in this book will learn from me
about how I've learned to choose courage over fear, how
I've learned to be resilient and persevere in the face
of great tragedy, and in doing so we can together
build a community of warriors who can help restore our
(40:07):
country and truly make it great.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, great point. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 6 (40:13):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
No moment, Rick Wilson.
Speaker 6 (40:21):
Mollie john Fast, what is your moment of fuck ray?
Speaker 5 (40:25):
That would be Pope Flatulus, the first Donald Trump tell.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Us why you have fit? This moment is your.
Speaker 5 (40:31):
Moment I find Look, I America is a nation founded
on religious diversity. And I know the word the d
word offends the magi at scale, but it really legitimately
was founded on religious diversity. Go back and read George
Washington's letter to the Connecticut Synagogue.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, I'm sure they're going to be doing that.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
I'm sure they're going to dig that right up.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
But he talked about freedom of religion as far back
as that, and for the MAGA is one of their
articles of fate for the last few years haha has
been how dare you insult our Christian faith? And then
Donald Trump posts a picture of himself as the next
Pope from the official White House Twitter account. I don't
know how hot the hinges of Hell are. It's a
(41:12):
phrase we use here in the South right frequently, but
I suspect if that doesn't qualify as full on white
hot blasphemy.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
I don't know what.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Does Rick Wilson white hot blasphemy.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Watch the documentary Conclave in the Near Future in Conclave
Too Electric Boogaloo.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best
minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If
you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.
Host
Molly Jong-Fast
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