September 16, 2025 • 31 mins
George is joined by Emmy-nominated director, writer and producer Nathan Hale Williams. Nathan tells George about growing up in Chicago, becoming a producer and director, what he thinks the role of the artist is today and how his upcoming film will talk about HIV in a totally new way. And him and George reflect on the experience of working together on the dramatic reading of All Boys Aren't Blue.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
My work is like a spoonful of sugar. You don't
know that you're getting medicine because it's shrouded in comedy
and entertainment, and that just arms an audience, and you know,
and I think it's subversive.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
That is Nathan Hale Williams an Emmy nominated director, writer, producer, actor,
and best selling author. Nathan is the founder of the
production company in Hell Entertainment and has produced movies like
Dirty Laundry and The Ski Trip. I had the privilege
to work with Nathan on the dramatic reading for All
Boys on Blue, in which we were both nominated for
an Emmy, And now Nathan is working on his own
(00:40):
feature film.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
And these times we have to be a little bit
more covert and subversive, right, you know what I mean?
It is the duty of the artist to reflect back
the times.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Right in the heavy hendy top of the world, take
a sip of brandy, spoke the guy who know what
the plan is of ka Latino. One that understand me.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
My name is Georgi M. Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I am the New York Times bestselling author of the
book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number one
most challenged book in the United States. This is Fighting Words,
a show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Who refuse to be silent. Today's guest Nathan hel Williams.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I am here today with a very very special person
in my life, a very good friend. One are the
best givers of advice, someone who has broken many doors
for not just myself, but so many others in Hollywood,
when it comes to filmmaking, when it comes to scriptwriting,
when it comes to just so many of the things
(01:58):
that we get to enjoyed on television now doesn't happen
without this person breaking that space. Mister Nathan Hell Williams,
how are you doing today? Welcome to Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I am so glad to be here, my friend. Thank
you for those kind words, and I'm excited for our
conversation today. We always have good offline conversations.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Sometimes our names should be interesting because of our bios
and the work that we do and the profiles that
we have. So I want you to tell our listening
audience who is Nathan hell Williams.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
You know I use the same line over and over again.
I'm from the South Side of Chicago and that tells
you everything you need to know about me. Actually adopted
that line. I've decided I'm not going to use the
word stole anymore. I adopted that line from First Lady
Michelle Obama, who's also from the South Side of Chicago.
We actually went to the same high school, not at
the same time, obviously, but she uses that in her
(02:51):
book Becoming because it really does some up who I am.
I really believe my upbringing in Chicago gave me all
all of the layers and tools to accomplish the things
that I've accomplished, but also to do it in the
way that I've done it right, you know, with integrity
and with empathy and compassion and with a look towards
(03:12):
service and purpose. I find that that is true for
most Chicagoans, and I think that now in these days,
we're finding out what Chicago is really made of is
not a city you want to mess with. So that's
all wrapped up into that statement that I'm a black
boy from the South Side of Chicago, and that tells
you everything you need to know about me?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
And what was it that inspired you to start wanting
to be a storyteller?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I wrote my first book when I was eight years old,
and I won my first writing competition, the Illinois Young
Authors Competition, when I was ten or eleven. But you know,
this was the eighties and you know, and like again
on the South Side of Chicago, so there was no rubric,
there was no there were no role models for me
to say that I wanted to be a storyteller as
(03:56):
a career. I also, in hindsight look back on the
first that I watched the movie The Original Color Purple,
which is still my favorite movie of all time, and
the way that I approached the viewing of that right.
I dissected the score, I dissected the performances, I dissected
the script. I dissected you know, Spielberg's direction, and Spielberg
(04:17):
to this day is still my favorite director, along with
Geena Price. By the Wood, I knew then in hindsight
that this was going to be my life, but there
was no there was no there was no road map
to get there. Right. So back then I saw black
people being actors, you know, they weren't really directors. And
we didn't have the Internet then, there was no Google,
(04:39):
so I didn't know about Oscar Me Show and Melvin
Van Peebles, and Marlon Riggs, and I didn't know about
any of those people, and Spike Lee didn't come. Really,
I didn't get to know who Spike Lee was until,
you know, the later part of my high school career
with school days, because I wasn't allowed to watch She's
got to have It. So I say all that to
say I knew kind of intrinsically then that I was
(05:02):
a storyteller, and I've always been good at storytelling. But
at the time, I was like, I'm good in science
and math, so I'm going to go be a doctor.
But there's just one big problem with that. I do
not like sick people. I do not like hospitals, and
I do not like the site of blood. And so
I'm not quite sure how I thought I was going
to be a doctor, but I quickly learned that that
(05:24):
was not going to be my trajectory. When I got
to college as a biomedical engineering major, I was looking
around the class one of my bio classes, and I
was like, one of these kids is doing his own thing,
and that one of those kids was me. And so
I remember coming to LA between my junior and senior
year of college, and I read this article Whitney Houston
(05:46):
is my favorite entertainer of all time. I read this
article about Deborah Martin Chase, who was running Whitney Houston's
production company, Brown House Productions at the time, and they
were getting ready to do a remake of Cinderella with
Brandy and the article talked about what she did as
a producer, and I was like, that's what I want
to do because I like steak better than pork and beans,
(06:06):
and you know, being on the audition circuit and asking
people to pick me was not conducive to my personality.
So I decided to go to law school to become
a producer because Deborah had talked about going to law
school and how that helped her and her day to
day job as a producer. And then fast forward, my
mother called me in my mid thirties and she said,
(06:26):
you know what, You have been writing books and storytelling
since you were eight years old. That is your gift
from God. I don't want you to produce anybody else's anything.
You need to be writing your own stories. You need
to be telling your own stories. And so, at the
young tender age of thirty eight, I made my directorial
writing debut with a short film called Love for Passion,
(06:48):
and you know, I haven't looked back, and so it
was sort of kind of roundabout. But I've always intrinsically
been a storyteller.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And so what is your process for like creating the
next story? What is it that like inspires you to say, like, oh,
I have to tell this story.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You know it's changed over time, honestly, because you know,
it is a blessing and a curse to have a
creative mind. I have a running list on my iPhone
in my notes of TV shows and books of just
I mean, you know, that is our gift, right, It's
to be able to take in the world and be
inspired by what's happening in the world, to act and
(07:31):
the way we act as through our stories. Right. So
I have you know, one hundred movies that you know
have a log line. I have about three thousand TV
shows all of that. With any project, whether it be
a book, a movie, a TV show, you have to
love it so much to stay with it for the
long haul, because this thing takes a long time to create, right,
(07:52):
whatever the thing is. Yeah, And so you know, for
the greater part of my career, it has been around passion, right,
and this side of my career, I've been in it
for twenty years. I'm being a little bit more strategic, George.
To be honest, it's time to make some money. And
so it's not just an idea that I'm passionate about.
(08:14):
It is also ideas that I feel that can generate
revenue and that are not such heavy lifts, right, because
I tell stories that our heavy lifts, you know that
people don't necessarily want to hear I have. My next
feature film is about HIV and love right, you know,
and telling trying to sell that is not easy.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yes, And this industry has been tough since COVID, since
the writer strike. How are you finding your footing nowadays?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I feel like even having accolades behind your name isn't
getting doors opened. Even having proof of concept and proof
of success isn't pushing the news as far as it
used to. So how are you navigating the industry as
it is today?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Well, you know, we are in trying times right across
the board, not even just in our industry. The industry
is contracting, and so you have to figure out how
to pivot, right. You have to figure out how you
keep the lights on and the roof over your head,
and food in your stomach and your family fed, but
also you know, not giving up on the dream. So
(09:29):
I've taken kind of a layered approach to it. One,
I split up my company, so in Heal Entertainment is
a production company and that houses all of the books
and the TV shows and the movies that I creator
that come from my brain. But then I also realized
that I was doing the work of a creative services
agency but just not being pointed about it right. And
(09:51):
so last September a year ago, I launched in Hell Media,
which is a creative services agency which is never going anywhere.
You know, people, companies and organizations are always going to
need agencies to help them market, to help them develop,
you know, campaigns, to help them develop their audiences and
their events. And then, especially since so many of these
(10:13):
companies are downsizing internally, I saw an opportunity to create
this external agency that worked with the likes of Paramount
and Showtime, that work with the ahfs and the Gileads
and the novartists of the world to help them construct
their stories. But I also think that the contraction and
correction will benefit people like you and me who are
(10:37):
in this to win this, right, who are not new
to this, who are true to this. To use a
couple of cliches, and I'm glad I got those cliches right,
because I always use cliches and get them all jacked up.
But because I don't have a plan, B you know
what I mean. So even my pivot is within the
realm of entertainment and creativity and all of that, and
(10:58):
so you know, I'm not going to to go be
a doctor, and so this has to work. And so
I think that they're with the boom of peak TV.
There were a lot of people who you know, kind
of got into it because they thought it was a good,
you know, get rich quick skin and I think those
people are going to be sifted out and it'll leave
(11:21):
the true storytellers. So I'm not as scared of it
as most people are. But I did have to pivot,
and the pivot has gone very very well.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I love what you spoke about, just the whole notion
of like not necessarily having a plan B.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Right, what is it that gives you?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
You know, like you said, you've been in this industry
a long time, you were able to kind of read
the trends that were going on, see what was out there.
Like you said, you want to eat, you want to
keep a roof over your head? What is it that
you know? Like kind of gave you like that courage
to say, you know what, like, I can still be
in this industry, but I can do it in a
different way.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Well, I think that when you've been in the business
for you know, over two decades, you've seen the ebbs
and the flows. There was one point I had five
TV shows on it at the same time, right, you
know what, I wow? And then the very next year
zero Right, And so I had to go back to
being a lawyer, Like I had retired from the bar
and everything, and I had to reinstate my bar membership
(12:17):
and I went in house at Viacom at Nickelodeon to
be an attorney. But that's what I went to law
school for, Right, So that when those times came that,
you know, that particular pivot, the way my mind was
thinking around it was it's not permanent, right, It's just
a pivot for that moment to keep things moving forward. Now,
(12:38):
just like this show, the realm of what entertaining and
media can be is so vast and we have so
much more access to do things on our own and
create on our own. Outside of the gatekeeping and outside
of the people that green light things, we can greenlight ourselves.
This pivot supports Plan A. It's a part of plan
(13:00):
is an extension of Plan A. And they can all
act in concert, you know what I mean with each other.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
And now back to my conversation with Nathan Hale Williams.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So let's get into the year is twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I believe it was November of twenty twenty when I
got a call from a friend of ours, Amara Kennedy,
about this idea of like it wasn't even no. I
got a call and we just were talking and it
was like, why do you feel about like maybe we
do like some dramatized reading of it. And I was like, oh, yeah,
that would be great, Like yeah, that sounds like fun,
Like let's do that, Like we got to do something.
(13:44):
We're all inside COVID is happening, so things weren't opening up.
And while on this call, Mars like, let me call
Nathan and literally three ways Nathan and it's like, hey,
would you direct this idea? We just kind of came
up with on the phone, and Nathan is like, oh
my god, Like I just read the book All Boys
Aren't Blue, and like this seems ordained, right, like and
(14:07):
it felt ordained from the moment we had this first
phone call. So for those listening, we did a dramatized
reading of my book All Boys Aren't Blue that Nathan
is that could have produced with me, wrote directed all of.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
The things in the middle of COVID.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So why don't we just kind of talk about, like
what was that first experience, like like to get that call,
and what did it feel like to like work together
on like this particular project from inception idea.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
You know, I think that if you do this long enough,
you will have those magical moments. Right, most of it's
a grind, but then you have moments like the moment
that we shared for those years it went for a
while with All Boys Aren't Blue. That makes it all worthwhile, right.
And so just as you said, I had just finished
reading your book, I knew of you, but I didn't
(14:59):
know you.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
And so yeah, we knew people, and we knew a
lot of the same people.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Exactly, and so we were in each other's universe, but
we had not met yet. And the thing that resonated
the most with me about your book was that it
was a different perspective on the way black families treat
their queer children, their gay and queer children. And much
like you, my family didn't miss a beat, you know
(15:25):
what I mean, And they dared somebody to say something
to me, right, but that didn't alleviate the fear that
I had before I came out about being disowned or whatever,
which couldn't have been further from the truth. Like my
family was just you know, ten toes down for me,
and I love that your family was like that for
you and your nanny, And you know, I called my
(15:46):
paternal grandmother nanny esther as well, And so there was
just so much that resonated with me. And just as
the universe does, God does when you are in a
magical moment, it was like clockwork. I finished the book
one day. Two or three days later, y'all called me,
and then in the middle of the call, God gave
me a vision. I was like, this is going to
(16:08):
be more than what they think it's gonna be. But
let me just ease them into it. And you know,
like you said, we were in the height of COVID then, right,
you know, And so it was daring and bold and
audacious that we even wanted to do a project like
that with people who did not live in mostly in LA,
(16:29):
you know what I mean. And we were gonna shoot
in LA and had to fly people, we had to
do all this COVID stuff. But I find that destiny
favors the bold and audation. And we were able to
shoot that peace and one day.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Day.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And then I had to edit it in three weeks
because we wanted it to debut for National Black HIVA,
National Black.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And HIV AIDS and Awareness Day on February seventh.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yes, and we did it, and you know, and then
it went on this journey that surpassed my wildest dreams,
you know, to the GLAD Awards, winning Glad Awards, Anthem Awards,
Telly Awards, and then culminating with us being nominated for
the Emmy. Yeah, you know, it was wonderful. But I
think the thing that I took away from that project
(17:17):
the most was the relationship that we built with each other.
And it was wonderful working with you, right, It was
seamless and we both respected and trusted each other's space.
And that is a great thing in this business called
show right, when you get a collaborator who you did
not know, who slowly through the course of a project
(17:38):
becomes family to you, and the family becomes family to you, yes,
and you're able to enjoy not just the creation of it,
but the journey of the rollout of it. And we
had a ball and quite frankly, you know, it put
a lot of pressure on my next project because I
was like, well, damn, you know, the last one was
(18:00):
but that was a learning lesson too, right, because every
project's not going to be like that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
No, And we were literally like learning as we went
and so now you know, we had all of that happen.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
It was great, It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
So now you're currently working on a project which I
got to read, a love story of sense of romantic
story with a person who was living with HIV. So
can you just tell us a little bit more about
that project?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah? Sure. So when I first got to LA, I
sat down and a friend of mine, unfortunately his name
was Nathan as Well, took his own life in twenty
fifteen because he felt that his HIV diagnosis was going
to preclude him from finding love. I was already doing
work with the CDC, and so I opened my big
(18:45):
mouth in a meeting with him. I was a spokesperson
for them, and said that I had a short film
about HIV. Right, I hadn't written a dog on thing.
And they were like, oh, can we see it? And
so I sat down on a Sunday and I wrote
the first very of that script, which was primarily what
we ended up shooting in about six hours. Right, It's
called ninety Days, and it starred Tianna Paris and Nick
(19:08):
Feugh and Paulta mus Paultta Washington. And again that was
another magical project. Right, little script that I wrote in
six hours went around the world, winning crazy awards and
stuff like that. And I had always written that in
mind as a proof of concept to write a feature film,
and it was going to be, you know, basically the
(19:29):
same story. But as time went on, things changed in
around HIV. Right, so we got you equals you undetectable,
equals untransmittable. PREP became more prevalent, PEP became more prevalent,
and it just changed the landscape of everything that was
in discussion around HIV and stigma. Right. And so I
(19:51):
wrote this new film while I was in Marl brack
a Kill's writer's colony called Level Saved the Day is
set in my hometown with Chicago, and you know, it
is a different story, but it's the same mission, right,
But it talks about HIV in a way that I've
never seen before on screen. You know, it is primarily
a romantic comedy, romantic dramedy love story. My thesis is
(20:15):
that we all come from love and that there is
nothing about us, there's nothing we can do that can
make us unworthy of love, including HIV. And so it's
this journey that the lead character, Lorel goes on and
she meets you know, kind of her May and her
Man and her Man who happens to be her political opponent.
(20:36):
And it's been a journey trying to get that made.
You know, we're getting closer and closer. I just need
to find by Laurel, which I'm working on right now.
But all the rest of the roles are cast. But
it's a hard seut It's hard to tell the studio
I'm making a love story that has HIV as a
central theme. You know, you basically laughed out the door,
(20:56):
but I know that when it is done, will be
revolutionary and groundbreaking, and so I won't give up on
it because there was Like I said, there's nothing that's
going to stand in the way.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
What do you feel your role is, especially during these
trying times as a storyteller, What is your role to
fight against what they're trying to suppress?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I love that question. I always say my work is
like a spoonful of sugar. You don't know that you're
getting medicine because it is. It's shrouded in comedy and entertainment,
and that just arms and audience, and you know, and
I think it's subversive, you know what I mean. I
think it's covert and subversive. And I know that in
these times we have to be a little bit more
(21:43):
covert and subversive, right, you know what I mean. We
have to lean into what Tony Morrison has guided us,
you know, she's my favorite author. We have to lean
into what Nina Simone says that you know, it is
the duty of the artists to reflect back the times, right,
but do so in a way that you know will
(22:05):
be consumed, right, because you know there is a school
of thought that you know, you create art for art's sake.
I agree with that, but as someone who is in
show business, which is different than just being an artist.
Who is in show business, you don't just create for yourself.
You create to serve, And in order to serve, you
(22:26):
have to promulgate it out into the zeitgeys. You have
to put it out right, You have people and you
have audiences have to consume it. And so my duty
is I think I have to create more space for
other storytellers, right, yes, And I think the best way
that I can do that is increasing the bottom line,
(22:48):
my bottom line, right, and making commercial projects that can
get green lit, that can get sold, that can make money,
because then I have more leverage and I have more
power to help green light stories that are much more
direct that aren't as commercial that are you know what
I mean. And so my focus is heavily on how
(23:09):
do I tell the same kinds of stories with the
same kind of mission in a way that is commercially
viable that will generate revenue that will also in turn
generate opportunities for other storytellers to tell their stories. And
I'm deeply looking at ways of doing it in spaces
outside of America, right, And so I think that there
(23:31):
is an opportunity there to integrate around creativity and storytellers
based on need and based on access and based on
lack of access, you know. And so I'm really exploring
how to do that in other cultures and other societies
in Africa and India and South America, you know, in
(23:52):
South Korea and places where there are stories to be
told and they just don't have the access to tell
them right, and they don't have the mechanisms to tell them.
It's pretty lofty, but I'm made for it.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And now back to my conversation with Nathan Hale Williams.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
There is something I actually want to talk to you about.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So I turned forty this year, and I am extremely
excited about it, but also like, I don't know. I
didn't know I was going to be here because when
I was diagnosed with HIV, I was twenty five, and
so I have these moments where I'm like, I didn't
plan for this, Like I didn't because those first couple
of years of being diagnosed, I didn't think I was
(24:42):
gonna live. And so then you keep living, and you
keep living, you keep living, you keep living. To me like,
oh wait, I actually didn't plan or see myself with forties? Right, So,
what would the advice that you would give to specifically
black queer people, black quere me black, we're non binary, black,
we're trans who are entering their forties. What should I
(25:05):
be doing? What are the things that we should be
preparing for expecting?
Speaker 4 (25:10):
How should we look at life?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Well? First and foremost, get excited. I love that as
you're entering your forties, I'm leaving mine and I'll be
fifty next February. And I have to tell you my
forties have been revelatory in so many ways, and I
discovered myself in ways that I didn't know that I would.
(25:32):
Right the forties is when all of it starts to
come together. And then right now, as I am on
the precipice of my fifties, I don't have no f's
to give, you know what I mean. I'm unapologetic about
who I am. I'm unapologetic about my voice. I am
(25:53):
rooted in the worthiness of my art and my work
and my talent, and that all was cultivated through the
course of my forties. And I switched, you know, from
being outside a lot. You know what I mean. As
a party promoter in New York to really preferring my
time at home over anything. You know, the best advice
(26:15):
I can give is to be excited for the discovery.
You are going to discover yourself. You thought you think
you know yourself, You do not. It's why I also
think that people really shouldn't, I know, because of you know,
procreation and all that, really shouldn't get in relationships into
their forties or their late thirties because you really don't
know yourself. I am a much different person than I
(26:38):
was ten years ago, twenty years ago. The way I
would prepare is do all of those things that they
tell you to do around self preservation, right, journaling, therapy,
you know, stillness, being in the stillness to process, because
you're going to process a lot, right, You're going to
be processing the past, and then you're going to be
processing the fact that you are technically middle a aged
(27:00):
right you know, yes, and you are no longer one
of the young kids on the block. Right you know
you are people start calling you unk and stuff, and
trust me, that was an adjustment. But doing the things
that help you to really discover who you are and
really discover who you are and your purpose here on
(27:21):
earth will benefit you and just enjoy it. And also
be around other people in their forties, you know what
I mean, Be around people who are going through the
same tonal transitions and energetic transitions as you. To add
comfort and supporting community. But have a ball. My forties
will have been a last I met it with excitement
(27:42):
because my mama told me to get excited about it,
and then mentors like Emil Wilkin and Bevy Smith and
Keith Boykin and those people told me to get excited
about it, just as they have told me to get
excited about my fifties. You just are going to know
yourself in such different ways. There's so much shit you're
not going to take anymore, you know what I mean,
And you will discover another version of George Matthew Johnson
(28:07):
that will take you in catapult you to your next level.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Thank you for that, and I hope everybody hear and
takes all those words as well.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
We're getting to the end of the show.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
He's have a column called George is Tired, where we're
right about weekly what I was tired about? Is there
anything that Nathan L. Williams is tired of right now?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I am tired of people giving away their power. I
am tired of us as a collective as a nation,
giving away our power, especially when it comes to Trump,
you know, and accepting that he's going to run for
a third term, or accepting that the Supreme Court can
get away with we give them the power. The power
(28:49):
is derived from we the people, and I really want us,
as creatives, as just citizens, to remember that power is
derived from us, and no one can have power that
we don't give them. And that's in the macro, but
also stop giving away your power in the microd We
too often let what other people do and think about
(29:11):
us and what they do in their lives affect us
too deeply. Let them do that, let them, and then
let you do what you're going to do right, and
that recenters your power in you and not somebody else.
So you know, the thing that I'm tired of is
people giving their power away, myself included, No more given
our power away. We own our power. The only people
(29:35):
that can take power from us are people that we
give power to, and we got to stop doing that.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I was going to ask you if you had any
words for twenty twenty five, but you just said them.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
I stop giving away your power people.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Nathan, I want to thank you for coming off Fighting
Words today again. The work you do is always brilliant.
The work you have helped me to create and what
we put in the world change my life completely. I'm
grateful to have you as a friend. I'm grateful to
have you as family. You know, my family asked about
you all the time, sometime to ask about you before
they ask about me. You know. I love them, yes,
(30:15):
because they show up and they love some Nathan Hall Williams.
I love some Nathan hell Williams, and I hope all
of you love some Nathan hell Williams. Thank you for
continuing to break the barriers that some people are afraid
to face themselves.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Well, thank you so much. The love is mutual. I
really am grateful that she asked me to be on
the show and yeah, let's do it again.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Yes Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Today's quote comes from novelists, poet, activists, and author of
The Color Purple, Alice Walker. The most common way people
give up their power is like thinking they don't.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Have any.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Fighting words.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Is production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with That's Case Studios,
I'm Doing and Bounce. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley.
Executive producers are myself and Tweety Puci Guar Song with
Adam Pinkss and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios. The
theme song was written and composed by cole Vas Banbianna
and myself. Original music by Colevas. This episode was edited
(31:20):
and scored by Michelle Macklin. Our iHeart Team is Ali
Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rake Fighting Words Wherever You
get your Podcast
My work is like a spoonful of sugar. You don't
know that you're getting medicine because it's shrouded in comedy
and entertainment, and that just arms an audience, and you know,
and I think it's subversive.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
That is Nathan Hale Williams an Emmy nominated director, writer, producer, actor,
and best selling author. Nathan is the founder of the
production company in Hell Entertainment and has produced movies like
Dirty Laundry and The Ski Trip. I had the privilege
to work with Nathan on the dramatic reading for All
Boys on Blue, in which we were both nominated for
an Emmy, And now Nathan is working on his own
(00:40):
feature film.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
And these times we have to be a little bit
more covert and subversive, right, you know what I mean?
It is the duty of the artist to reflect back
the times.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Right in the heavy hendy top of the world, take
a sip of brandy, spoke the guy who know what
the plan is of ka Latino. One that understand me.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
My name is Georgi M. Johnson.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I am the New York Times bestselling author of the
book All Boys Aren't Blue, which is the number one
most challenged book in the United States. This is Fighting Words,
a show where we take you to the front lines
of the culture wars with the people who are using
their words to make change and.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Who refuse to be silent. Today's guest Nathan hel Williams.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I am here today with a very very special person
in my life, a very good friend. One are the
best givers of advice, someone who has broken many doors
for not just myself, but so many others in Hollywood,
when it comes to filmmaking, when it comes to scriptwriting,
when it comes to just so many of the things
(01:58):
that we get to enjoyed on television now doesn't happen
without this person breaking that space. Mister Nathan Hell Williams,
how are you doing today? Welcome to Fighting Words.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
I am so glad to be here, my friend. Thank
you for those kind words, and I'm excited for our
conversation today. We always have good offline conversations.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Sometimes our names should be interesting because of our bios
and the work that we do and the profiles that
we have. So I want you to tell our listening
audience who is Nathan hell Williams.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
You know I use the same line over and over again.
I'm from the South Side of Chicago and that tells
you everything you need to know about me. Actually adopted
that line. I've decided I'm not going to use the
word stole anymore. I adopted that line from First Lady
Michelle Obama, who's also from the South Side of Chicago.
We actually went to the same high school, not at
the same time, obviously, but she uses that in her
(02:51):
book Becoming because it really does some up who I am.
I really believe my upbringing in Chicago gave me all
all of the layers and tools to accomplish the things
that I've accomplished, but also to do it in the
way that I've done it right, you know, with integrity
and with empathy and compassion and with a look towards
(03:12):
service and purpose. I find that that is true for
most Chicagoans, and I think that now in these days,
we're finding out what Chicago is really made of is
not a city you want to mess with. So that's
all wrapped up into that statement that I'm a black
boy from the South Side of Chicago, and that tells
you everything you need to know about me?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
And what was it that inspired you to start wanting
to be a storyteller?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I wrote my first book when I was eight years old,
and I won my first writing competition, the Illinois Young
Authors Competition, when I was ten or eleven. But you know,
this was the eighties and you know, and like again
on the South Side of Chicago, so there was no rubric,
there was no there were no role models for me
to say that I wanted to be a storyteller as
(03:56):
a career. I also, in hindsight look back on the
first that I watched the movie The Original Color Purple,
which is still my favorite movie of all time, and
the way that I approached the viewing of that right.
I dissected the score, I dissected the performances, I dissected
the script. I dissected you know, Spielberg's direction, and Spielberg
(04:17):
to this day is still my favorite director, along with
Geena Price. By the Wood, I knew then in hindsight
that this was going to be my life, but there
was no there was no there was no road map
to get there. Right. So back then I saw black
people being actors, you know, they weren't really directors. And
we didn't have the Internet then, there was no Google,
(04:39):
so I didn't know about Oscar Me Show and Melvin
Van Peebles, and Marlon Riggs, and I didn't know about
any of those people, and Spike Lee didn't come. Really,
I didn't get to know who Spike Lee was until,
you know, the later part of my high school career
with school days, because I wasn't allowed to watch She's
got to have It. So I say all that to
say I knew kind of intrinsically then that I was
(05:02):
a storyteller, and I've always been good at storytelling. But
at the time, I was like, I'm good in science
and math, so I'm going to go be a doctor.
But there's just one big problem with that. I do
not like sick people. I do not like hospitals, and
I do not like the site of blood. And so
I'm not quite sure how I thought I was going
to be a doctor, but I quickly learned that that
(05:24):
was not going to be my trajectory. When I got
to college as a biomedical engineering major, I was looking
around the class one of my bio classes, and I
was like, one of these kids is doing his own thing,
and that one of those kids was me. And so
I remember coming to LA between my junior and senior
year of college, and I read this article Whitney Houston
(05:46):
is my favorite entertainer of all time. I read this
article about Deborah Martin Chase, who was running Whitney Houston's
production company, Brown House Productions at the time, and they
were getting ready to do a remake of Cinderella with
Brandy and the article talked about what she did as
a producer, and I was like, that's what I want
to do because I like steak better than pork and beans,
(06:06):
and you know, being on the audition circuit and asking
people to pick me was not conducive to my personality.
So I decided to go to law school to become
a producer because Deborah had talked about going to law
school and how that helped her and her day to
day job as a producer. And then fast forward, my
mother called me in my mid thirties and she said,
(06:26):
you know what, You have been writing books and storytelling
since you were eight years old. That is your gift
from God. I don't want you to produce anybody else's anything.
You need to be writing your own stories. You need
to be telling your own stories. And so, at the
young tender age of thirty eight, I made my directorial
writing debut with a short film called Love for Passion,
(06:48):
and you know, I haven't looked back, and so it
was sort of kind of roundabout. But I've always intrinsically
been a storyteller.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And so what is your process for like creating the
next story? What is it that like inspires you to say, like, oh,
I have to tell this story.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
You know it's changed over time, honestly, because you know,
it is a blessing and a curse to have a
creative mind. I have a running list on my iPhone
in my notes of TV shows and books of just
I mean, you know, that is our gift, right, It's
to be able to take in the world and be
inspired by what's happening in the world, to act and
(07:31):
the way we act as through our stories. Right. So
I have you know, one hundred movies that you know
have a log line. I have about three thousand TV
shows all of that. With any project, whether it be
a book, a movie, a TV show, you have to
love it so much to stay with it for the
long haul, because this thing takes a long time to create, right,
(07:52):
whatever the thing is. Yeah, And so you know, for
the greater part of my career, it has been around passion, right,
and this side of my career, I've been in it
for twenty years. I'm being a little bit more strategic, George.
To be honest, it's time to make some money. And
so it's not just an idea that I'm passionate about.
(08:14):
It is also ideas that I feel that can generate
revenue and that are not such heavy lifts, right, because
I tell stories that our heavy lifts, you know that
people don't necessarily want to hear I have. My next
feature film is about HIV and love right, you know,
and telling trying to sell that is not easy.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yes, And this industry has been tough since COVID, since
the writer strike. How are you finding your footing nowadays?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I feel like even having accolades behind your name isn't
getting doors opened. Even having proof of concept and proof
of success isn't pushing the news as far as it
used to. So how are you navigating the industry as
it is today?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Well, you know, we are in trying times right across
the board, not even just in our industry. The industry
is contracting, and so you have to figure out how
to pivot, right. You have to figure out how you
keep the lights on and the roof over your head,
and food in your stomach and your family fed, but
also you know, not giving up on the dream. So
(09:29):
I've taken kind of a layered approach to it. One,
I split up my company, so in Heal Entertainment is
a production company and that houses all of the books
and the TV shows and the movies that I creator
that come from my brain. But then I also realized
that I was doing the work of a creative services
agency but just not being pointed about it right. And
(09:51):
so last September a year ago, I launched in Hell Media,
which is a creative services agency which is never going anywhere.
You know, people, companies and organizations are always going to
need agencies to help them market, to help them develop,
you know, campaigns, to help them develop their audiences and
their events. And then, especially since so many of these
(10:13):
companies are downsizing internally, I saw an opportunity to create
this external agency that worked with the likes of Paramount
and Showtime, that work with the ahfs and the Gileads
and the novartists of the world to help them construct
their stories. But I also think that the contraction and
correction will benefit people like you and me who are
(10:37):
in this to win this, right, who are not new
to this, who are true to this. To use a
couple of cliches, and I'm glad I got those cliches right,
because I always use cliches and get them all jacked up.
But because I don't have a plan, B you know
what I mean. So even my pivot is within the
realm of entertainment and creativity and all of that, and
(10:58):
so you know, I'm not going to to go be
a doctor, and so this has to work. And so
I think that they're with the boom of peak TV.
There were a lot of people who you know, kind
of got into it because they thought it was a good,
you know, get rich quick skin and I think those
people are going to be sifted out and it'll leave
(11:21):
the true storytellers. So I'm not as scared of it
as most people are. But I did have to pivot,
and the pivot has gone very very well.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I love what you spoke about, just the whole notion
of like not necessarily having a plan B.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Right, what is it that gives you?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
You know, like you said, you've been in this industry
a long time, you were able to kind of read
the trends that were going on, see what was out there.
Like you said, you want to eat, you want to
keep a roof over your head? What is it that
you know? Like kind of gave you like that courage
to say, you know what, like, I can still be
in this industry, but I can do it in a
different way.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Well, I think that when you've been in the business
for you know, over two decades, you've seen the ebbs
and the flows. There was one point I had five
TV shows on it at the same time, right, you
know what, I wow? And then the very next year
zero Right, And so I had to go back to
being a lawyer, Like I had retired from the bar
and everything, and I had to reinstate my bar membership
(12:17):
and I went in house at Viacom at Nickelodeon to
be an attorney. But that's what I went to law
school for, Right, So that when those times came that,
you know, that particular pivot, the way my mind was
thinking around it was it's not permanent, right, It's just
a pivot for that moment to keep things moving forward. Now,
(12:38):
just like this show, the realm of what entertaining and
media can be is so vast and we have so
much more access to do things on our own and
create on our own. Outside of the gatekeeping and outside
of the people that green light things, we can greenlight ourselves.
This pivot supports Plan A. It's a part of plan
(13:00):
is an extension of Plan A. And they can all
act in concert, you know what I mean with each other.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
And now back to my conversation with Nathan Hale Williams.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
So let's get into the year is twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I believe it was November of twenty twenty when I
got a call from a friend of ours, Amara Kennedy,
about this idea of like it wasn't even no. I
got a call and we just were talking and it
was like, why do you feel about like maybe we
do like some dramatized reading of it. And I was like, oh, yeah,
that would be great, Like yeah, that sounds like fun,
Like let's do that, Like we got to do something.
(13:44):
We're all inside COVID is happening, so things weren't opening up.
And while on this call, Mars like, let me call
Nathan and literally three ways Nathan and it's like, hey,
would you direct this idea? We just kind of came
up with on the phone, and Nathan is like, oh
my god, Like I just read the book All Boys
Aren't Blue, and like this seems ordained, right, like and
(14:07):
it felt ordained from the moment we had this first
phone call. So for those listening, we did a dramatized
reading of my book All Boys Aren't Blue that Nathan
is that could have produced with me, wrote directed all of.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
The things in the middle of COVID.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So why don't we just kind of talk about, like
what was that first experience, like like to get that call,
and what did it feel like to like work together
on like this particular project from inception idea.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
You know, I think that if you do this long enough,
you will have those magical moments. Right, most of it's
a grind, but then you have moments like the moment
that we shared for those years it went for a
while with All Boys Aren't Blue. That makes it all worthwhile, right.
And so just as you said, I had just finished
reading your book, I knew of you, but I didn't
(14:59):
know you.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
And so yeah, we knew people, and we knew a
lot of the same people.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Exactly, and so we were in each other's universe, but
we had not met yet. And the thing that resonated
the most with me about your book was that it
was a different perspective on the way black families treat
their queer children, their gay and queer children. And much
like you, my family didn't miss a beat, you know
(15:25):
what I mean, And they dared somebody to say something
to me, right, but that didn't alleviate the fear that
I had before I came out about being disowned or whatever,
which couldn't have been further from the truth. Like my
family was just you know, ten toes down for me,
and I love that your family was like that for
you and your nanny, And you know, I called my
(15:46):
paternal grandmother nanny esther as well, And so there was
just so much that resonated with me. And just as
the universe does, God does when you are in a
magical moment, it was like clockwork. I finished the book
one day. Two or three days later, y'all called me,
and then in the middle of the call, God gave
me a vision. I was like, this is going to
(16:08):
be more than what they think it's gonna be. But
let me just ease them into it. And you know,
like you said, we were in the height of COVID then, right,
you know, And so it was daring and bold and
audacious that we even wanted to do a project like
that with people who did not live in mostly in LA,
(16:29):
you know what I mean. And we were gonna shoot
in LA and had to fly people, we had to
do all this COVID stuff. But I find that destiny
favors the bold and audation. And we were able to
shoot that peace and one day.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Day.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And then I had to edit it in three weeks
because we wanted it to debut for National Black HIVA,
National Black.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And HIV AIDS and Awareness Day on February seventh.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yes, and we did it, and you know, and then
it went on this journey that surpassed my wildest dreams,
you know, to the GLAD Awards, winning Glad Awards, Anthem Awards,
Telly Awards, and then culminating with us being nominated for
the Emmy. Yeah, you know, it was wonderful. But I
think the thing that I took away from that project
(17:17):
the most was the relationship that we built with each other.
And it was wonderful working with you, right, It was
seamless and we both respected and trusted each other's space.
And that is a great thing in this business called
show right, when you get a collaborator who you did
not know, who slowly through the course of a project
(17:38):
becomes family to you, and the family becomes family to you, yes,
and you're able to enjoy not just the creation of it,
but the journey of the rollout of it. And we
had a ball and quite frankly, you know, it put
a lot of pressure on my next project because I
was like, well, damn, you know, the last one was
(18:00):
but that was a learning lesson too, right, because every
project's not going to be like that.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
No, And we were literally like learning as we went
and so now you know, we had all of that happen.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
It was great, It was amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
So now you're currently working on a project which I
got to read, a love story of sense of romantic
story with a person who was living with HIV. So
can you just tell us a little bit more about
that project?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah? Sure. So when I first got to LA, I
sat down and a friend of mine, unfortunately his name
was Nathan as Well, took his own life in twenty
fifteen because he felt that his HIV diagnosis was going
to preclude him from finding love. I was already doing
work with the CDC, and so I opened my big
(18:45):
mouth in a meeting with him. I was a spokesperson
for them, and said that I had a short film
about HIV. Right, I hadn't written a dog on thing.
And they were like, oh, can we see it? And
so I sat down on a Sunday and I wrote
the first very of that script, which was primarily what
we ended up shooting in about six hours. Right, It's
called ninety Days, and it starred Tianna Paris and Nick
(19:08):
Feugh and Paulta mus Paultta Washington. And again that was
another magical project. Right, little script that I wrote in
six hours went around the world, winning crazy awards and
stuff like that. And I had always written that in
mind as a proof of concept to write a feature film,
and it was going to be, you know, basically the
(19:29):
same story. But as time went on, things changed in
around HIV. Right, so we got you equals you undetectable,
equals untransmittable. PREP became more prevalent, PEP became more prevalent,
and it just changed the landscape of everything that was
in discussion around HIV and stigma. Right. And so I
(19:51):
wrote this new film while I was in Marl brack
a Kill's writer's colony called Level Saved the Day is
set in my hometown with Chicago, and you know, it
is a different story, but it's the same mission, right,
But it talks about HIV in a way that I've
never seen before on screen. You know, it is primarily
a romantic comedy, romantic dramedy love story. My thesis is
(20:15):
that we all come from love and that there is
nothing about us, there's nothing we can do that can
make us unworthy of love, including HIV. And so it's
this journey that the lead character, Lorel goes on and
she meets you know, kind of her May and her
Man and her Man who happens to be her political opponent.
(20:36):
And it's been a journey trying to get that made.
You know, we're getting closer and closer. I just need
to find by Laurel, which I'm working on right now.
But all the rest of the roles are cast. But
it's a hard seut It's hard to tell the studio
I'm making a love story that has HIV as a
central theme. You know, you basically laughed out the door,
(20:56):
but I know that when it is done, will be
revolutionary and groundbreaking, and so I won't give up on
it because there was Like I said, there's nothing that's
going to stand in the way.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
What do you feel your role is, especially during these
trying times as a storyteller, What is your role to
fight against what they're trying to suppress?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I love that question. I always say my work is
like a spoonful of sugar. You don't know that you're
getting medicine because it is. It's shrouded in comedy and entertainment,
and that just arms and audience, and you know, and
I think it's subversive, you know what I mean. I
think it's covert and subversive. And I know that in
these times we have to be a little bit more
(21:43):
covert and subversive, right, you know what I mean. We
have to lean into what Tony Morrison has guided us,
you know, she's my favorite author. We have to lean
into what Nina Simone says that you know, it is
the duty of the artists to reflect back the times, right,
but do so in a way that you know will
(22:05):
be consumed, right, because you know there is a school
of thought that you know, you create art for art's sake.
I agree with that, but as someone who is in
show business, which is different than just being an artist.
Who is in show business, you don't just create for yourself.
You create to serve, And in order to serve, you
(22:26):
have to promulgate it out into the zeitgeys. You have
to put it out right, You have people and you
have audiences have to consume it. And so my duty
is I think I have to create more space for
other storytellers, right, yes, And I think the best way
that I can do that is increasing the bottom line,
(22:48):
my bottom line, right, and making commercial projects that can
get green lit, that can get sold, that can make money,
because then I have more leverage and I have more
power to help green light stories that are much more
direct that aren't as commercial that are you know what
I mean. And so my focus is heavily on how
(23:09):
do I tell the same kinds of stories with the
same kind of mission in a way that is commercially
viable that will generate revenue that will also in turn
generate opportunities for other storytellers to tell their stories. And
I'm deeply looking at ways of doing it in spaces
outside of America, right, And so I think that there
(23:31):
is an opportunity there to integrate around creativity and storytellers
based on need and based on access and based on
lack of access, you know. And so I'm really exploring
how to do that in other cultures and other societies
in Africa and India and South America, you know, in
(23:52):
South Korea and places where there are stories to be
told and they just don't have the access to tell
them right, and they don't have the mechanisms to tell them.
It's pretty lofty, but I'm made for it.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
And now back to my conversation with Nathan Hale Williams.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
There is something I actually want to talk to you about.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So I turned forty this year, and I am extremely
excited about it, but also like, I don't know. I
didn't know I was going to be here because when
I was diagnosed with HIV, I was twenty five, and
so I have these moments where I'm like, I didn't
plan for this, Like I didn't because those first couple
of years of being diagnosed, I didn't think I was
(24:42):
gonna live. And so then you keep living, and you
keep living, you keep living, you keep living. To me like,
oh wait, I actually didn't plan or see myself with forties? Right, So,
what would the advice that you would give to specifically
black queer people, black quere me black, we're non binary, black,
we're trans who are entering their forties. What should I
(25:05):
be doing? What are the things that we should be
preparing for expecting?
Speaker 4 (25:10):
How should we look at life?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Well? First and foremost, get excited. I love that as
you're entering your forties, I'm leaving mine and I'll be
fifty next February. And I have to tell you my
forties have been revelatory in so many ways, and I
discovered myself in ways that I didn't know that I would.
(25:32):
Right the forties is when all of it starts to
come together. And then right now, as I am on
the precipice of my fifties, I don't have no f's
to give, you know what I mean. I'm unapologetic about
who I am. I'm unapologetic about my voice. I am
(25:53):
rooted in the worthiness of my art and my work
and my talent, and that all was cultivated through the
course of my forties. And I switched, you know, from
being outside a lot. You know what I mean. As
a party promoter in New York to really preferring my
time at home over anything. You know, the best advice
(26:15):
I can give is to be excited for the discovery.
You are going to discover yourself. You thought you think
you know yourself, You do not. It's why I also
think that people really shouldn't, I know, because of you know,
procreation and all that, really shouldn't get in relationships into
their forties or their late thirties because you really don't
know yourself. I am a much different person than I
(26:38):
was ten years ago, twenty years ago. The way I
would prepare is do all of those things that they
tell you to do around self preservation, right, journaling, therapy,
you know, stillness, being in the stillness to process, because
you're going to process a lot, right, You're going to
be processing the past, and then you're going to be
processing the fact that you are technically middle a aged
(27:00):
right you know, yes, and you are no longer one
of the young kids on the block. Right you know
you are people start calling you unk and stuff, and
trust me, that was an adjustment. But doing the things
that help you to really discover who you are and
really discover who you are and your purpose here on
(27:21):
earth will benefit you and just enjoy it. And also
be around other people in their forties, you know what
I mean, Be around people who are going through the
same tonal transitions and energetic transitions as you. To add
comfort and supporting community. But have a ball. My forties
will have been a last I met it with excitement
(27:42):
because my mama told me to get excited about it,
and then mentors like Emil Wilkin and Bevy Smith and
Keith Boykin and those people told me to get excited
about it, just as they have told me to get
excited about my fifties. You just are going to know
yourself in such different ways. There's so much shit you're
not going to take anymore, you know what I mean,
And you will discover another version of George Matthew Johnson
(28:07):
that will take you in catapult you to your next level.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Thank you for that, and I hope everybody hear and
takes all those words as well.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
We're getting to the end of the show.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
He's have a column called George is Tired, where we're
right about weekly what I was tired about? Is there
anything that Nathan L. Williams is tired of right now?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
I am tired of people giving away their power. I
am tired of us as a collective as a nation,
giving away our power, especially when it comes to Trump,
you know, and accepting that he's going to run for
a third term, or accepting that the Supreme Court can
get away with we give them the power. The power
(28:49):
is derived from we the people, and I really want us,
as creatives, as just citizens, to remember that power is
derived from us, and no one can have power that
we don't give them. And that's in the macro, but
also stop giving away your power in the microd We
too often let what other people do and think about
(29:11):
us and what they do in their lives affect us
too deeply. Let them do that, let them, and then
let you do what you're going to do right, and
that recenters your power in you and not somebody else.
So you know, the thing that I'm tired of is
people giving their power away, myself included, No more given
our power away. We own our power. The only people
(29:35):
that can take power from us are people that we
give power to, and we got to stop doing that.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
I was going to ask you if you had any
words for twenty twenty five, but you just said them.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
I stop giving away your power people.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Nathan, I want to thank you for coming off Fighting
Words today again. The work you do is always brilliant.
The work you have helped me to create and what
we put in the world change my life completely. I'm
grateful to have you as a friend. I'm grateful to
have you as family. You know, my family asked about
you all the time, sometime to ask about you before
they ask about me. You know. I love them, yes,
(30:15):
because they show up and they love some Nathan Hall Williams.
I love some Nathan hell Williams, and I hope all
of you love some Nathan hell Williams. Thank you for
continuing to break the barriers that some people are afraid
to face themselves.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Well, thank you so much. The love is mutual. I
really am grateful that she asked me to be on
the show and yeah, let's do it again.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Yes Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Today's quote comes from novelists, poet, activists, and author of
The Color Purple, Alice Walker. The most common way people
give up their power is like thinking they don't.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Have any.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
Fighting words.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Is production of iHeart Podcasts in partnership with That's Case Studios,
I'm Doing and Bounce. This episode was produced by Charlotte Morley.
Executive producers are myself and Tweety Puci Guar Song with
Adam Pinkss and Brick Cats for Best Case Studios. The
theme song was written and composed by cole Vas Banbianna
and myself. Original music by Colevas. This episode was edited
(31:20):
and scored by Michelle Macklin. Our iHeart Team is Ali
Perry and Carl Ketel. Following Rake Fighting Words Wherever You
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