August 26, 2026 • 46 mins
In 2023, Adam and Josh took another look at 1988's Midnight Run for its 35th anniversary. The Robert De Niro/Charles Grodin action comedy was an early and somewhat controversial inductee in the Filmspotting Pantheon, a decision they use their conversation to defend.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
What kind of a show are you guys putting on
here today?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You're not interested in art? No. Well, look, we're going
to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hey, film spotters.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
On Friday, Josh, we will have a recommendation and a
golden brick nomination for a new movie out in limited release.
It's called It Ends. And you have to call it
a road trip movie, not a fun road trip movie,
but a road trip movie as... They really do spend
(00:35):
almost the entire runtime of the film in a car,
driving in a car.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You could say it's the ultimate road trip movie.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
The ultimate road trip movie. They should have brought more snacks.
They really should have stopped at a 7-Eleven and loaded up.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
They needed more provisions for this trip. And that got
us thinking about other memorable road trip movies. road trip
movies we've discussed, maybe given the sacred cow treatment to.
And of course, that got us thinking about one that's
in our pantheon, yes, of all time greats, Midnight Run.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
It's that good.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It is. Yeah, if already you're scoffing, we hope you
continue listening because I think we make a good case
for it.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, continue scoffing right up until about, I don't know,
eight minutes into our conversation and then you'll be convinced.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
We'll see if that's the mark or not mileage mileage
may vary.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I'll leave you. I'll leave you with that.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Here is our conversation from 2023 as a film spotting
family member, you get access to conversations like this one
at your fingertips. Anytime you want just one of the
benefits of being a film spotting family member. You can
learn more at film spotting family.com.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Enjoy. Robert De Niro is a bounty hunter. Your mother
ever teach you how to talk nice to people and
not shoot at them?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Charles Brodin is an accountant who embezzled $ 15 million from
the mob.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
It is truly in your best interest to just relax.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I'm totally relaxed. I want this guy taken off. I
want him taken off fast. The mob wants him dead.
The FBI want him alive. I'm going to bring him
into federal court. Do I make myself understood? These sunglasses,
they're really nice. Are they government-issued, or do all you
guys go to the same store to get them? And
his bail bondsman wants.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Him in L.A.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
In 72 hours.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Josh, you know how presidents will often pardon a bunch
of folks just before leaving office?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Well, it's similar with film-spotting hosts in the Pantheon. At
least it was with your predecessor. What better way to
commemorate the last show of a guy I was introduced
to and only really ever referred to as Matty Ballgame
than to share our top five movie character nicknames? Indiana
Jones came in at number two for Maddie. The Duke,
(02:59):
as in John Mardukas, not Wayne, didn't actually end up
on his list. But with that episode, both Steven Spielberg's
Raiders of the Lost Ark and Martin Bress' Midnight Run
were enshrined forever. Or forever-ish, as we're currently rethinking the
Pantheon's purpose, process, and picks. I think it's fair to
(03:20):
say that Midnight Run has always been the Pantheon's most
head-scratching inductee. Sure, many a Gen X man like myself, Maddie,
and Maddie's former Chicago roommate, show producer and co-founder Sam
Van Halgren, have always had a soft spot for it.
One of the all-time great films, though, on the same
list as The Godfather Part II, Taxi Driver, and Goodfellas,
(03:44):
Run may not be as revered as that trio of
films that also happen to star Robert De Niro But
it does hold the 95% on Rotten Tomatoes, and also
has the distinction of getting the Chicago Way seal of approval.
All four of the city's major print critics at the
time were favorable. In his three-and-a-half-star Sun-Times review, Roger Ebert wrote,
(04:06):
Whoever cast De Niro and Grodin must have had a
sixth sense for the chemistry they would have. They worked
together so smoothly and with such an evident sense of
fun that even their silences are intriguing. Ebert's best frenemy
Gene Siskel called it, Funny, unpredictable, and refreshingly adult in
the Tribune, Trib colleague Dave Kerr said, Midnight Run touches
on one of the great mysteries of the movies. How
(04:26):
is it that the tritest material can come to life
when touched by the right director and the right actors?
Even the Chicago Reader's Jonathan Rosenbaum was along for the
cross-country ride.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Mostly.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Thanking the performances of De Niro and Grodin for turning
this sow's ear into a plausible vehicle for a buddy movie.
Turns out, The case of Jonathan Rosenbaum's Midnight Run reaction
is as curious as the movie's pantheon inclusion. Run's 25th
anniversary in 2013 offered Rosenbaum the opportunity to reflect on
his original take and on the presumptions film critics invariably
(05:01):
make when writing their reviews. He offered four different exhibits.
Here's the opening to Exhibit A, which he began scribing
a few hours after walking out of the theater. If
it were merely a matter of script, direction, and technical credits...
This formula cross-country chase comedy wouldn't be worth a minute
of one's time, much less the price of a movie ticket.
(05:22):
Martin Bress, who launched his career a little over a
decade ago by leaping from a forgettable $ 33, 000 independent feature
called Hot Tomorrows to a $ 5 million heist comedy called
Going in Style, followed by Beverly Hills Cop, comes on
like a competent, if faceless, TV director, scoring with all
the desired effects of his mechanical mise-en-scene, but leaving no
discernible memory traces behind him. The script by George Gallo,
(05:45):
a newcomer whose only previously produced screenplay was for Wise Guys,
is as formulaic as they come, even down to multiple
and periodic plot twists that seem to come along before
every invisible station break. Danny Elfman's pop score is aggressively banal,
and Donald Thorne's cinematography is thoroughly unremarkable. What this movie
has is lively performances by two of the best actors
(06:06):
in the business, Robert De Niro and Charles Grodin. Without them,
it would be little more than a hole in the screen.
The following night, he took a look at one of
those Brest films he mentions, Going in Style, which led
to a new reaction, Exhibit B. While I still haven't
caught up with Beverly Hills Cop, Martin Brest's other features
to date all have certain traits in common. Hot Tomorrows,
(06:28):
Going in Style, and Midnight Run are all mainly comic
buddy movies with melancholy subtext. All encourage their lead actors
to ham it up, and each has an aggressive and
synthetic musical score that editorializes and not so gently prods
the audience, telling us how and when to react. Giving
actors a lot of freedom while giving spectators very little
freedom at all produces a strange push-me-pull-you effect reminiscent of
(06:51):
certain popular TV series. The usual point of such shows
isn't surprise, but the chance to savor minor variations on
the already known. Not marveling at what Ralph Cramden says
on The Honeymooners, but appreciating the particular inflection that Jackie
Gleason brings to the line this time. This strategy, a
triumph of embroidery over design, would be unthinkable without an
interminable backlog of familiar lines, gestures, and attitudes, and that
(07:14):
is precisely what lurks behind De Niro's role as a
bounty hunter and former cop in Midnight Run. Rosenbaum's point
here is that whether De Niro and Grodin overcome the
film's limitations or are a product of them is something
a reviewer really can't know for sure. A third possible
review of Midnight Run, he then explains, might deal with
De Niro and Grodin in relation to each other. rather
(07:36):
than as some sort of united front that functions either
with or against the rest of the movie. And a
fourth could deal with how the movie works independently of
what they bring to it. And that's when we get
Exhibits C and D, which are, respectively, Josh, his most
generous and harshest. That negativity aside, any movie that prompts
Jonathan Rosenbaum to pen four different reviews sounds like a
(07:59):
Pantheon movie to me. But what say you? And which
of his tacks will you be taking? The one that
credits De Niro and Grodin for elevating undeniably formulaic material?
The one that suggests Martin Bress may actually deserve some
auteurist accolades? Or do you have a response so idiosyncratic
that you might inspire Rosenbaum to get to work on
(08:19):
Exhibit E?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, not sure if Rosenbaum is going to take another
whack at Midnight Run at this stage in his career.
We could probably jump right into the Pantheon question, but
it might be more fun to save that at the
end after talking about our reactions in general, and I
would credit a little more highly some of those elements
(08:41):
that Rosenbaum called out. Certainly not the strengths of the film.
The strength of this movie is the star pairing. You
would have to be blind to not see that. Even
Rosenbaum at the very beginning saw that, despite his reservations.
But I think he didn't give Brest enough credit here,
along with the cinematographer he mentions, Donald E. Thorne, There
(09:04):
is nothing revelatory here, but there is enough comic blocking
and sturdy action set pieces to make those elements of
the movie a plus. I think they bring something to
this film. Similarly, George Gallo's screenplay, I was surprised at
The level of sophistication going on here, even from a
(09:26):
structure point of view, think about how this has a
very clever planes to trains to automobiles to walking on foot,
circular motion, then back up that ladder again. Maybe not exactly,
but pretty much back up that ladder with the nice
little grace note at the end of Jack Walsh saying,
(09:47):
I guess I'm walking, right? What he's not going to
take the cab. So that's just a little... you know,
nice screenplay touch. And maybe we'll get into more of
this in detail, but I think there's some interesting questions
going on. on throughout the movie about what is the
right thing to do? Who is doing the right thing?
And again, that is a more sophisticated screenplay than what
(10:10):
Rosenbaum described, to my mind. And one of the reasons that, yes,
Midnight Run more than held up on this revisit for
me We've mentioned on previous shows how I have not
seen it since probably late 80s, possibly early 90s. As
soon as it started, though, I was taken back to
(10:32):
where I did see this. It was definitely one of
those at the neighbor's house on VHS. Wouldn't have seen
it in my house. Just, you know, rated R at
that point was probably not in general. I'd seen some
rated R films. They weren't, you know, they weren't verboten,
but this was probably not one that was going to
get the pass.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
A lot of swearing for the Larson house.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
A little bit, a little bit. This was definitely the
neighbor's house viewing. And no wonder I loved this thing
at 14. Every other line that comes out of a
character's mouth is some sort of smart-ass comment. And very
much like Bress, Beverly Hills Cop, which we talked about
on the show, Adam, I also got similar vibes to
(11:15):
the Blues Brothers in terms of this smart-ass quality. Both
of those middle school transitioning into high school favorites for Josh.
Still enjoyed that element. Yes, absolutely. Does every line sing?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
No.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
No. I think we've already heard maybe one that, to
my mind, isn't quite up to the quality of quoting
or remembering. Fistophobia. Kind of groaned at fistophobia this time.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Fistophobia is not one of the better lines.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I got to admit. But most of these absolutely land
and particularly landed for me back when I was around
that age. So an incredible pleasure to see this hold
up in the ways we're going to get into. I'll
pause here and we'll return to De Niro and Grodin.
Because I want to give that its entirely own section.
But for me, yeah, pleasant surprise that some of those
(12:05):
other elements I think are worth noting for making Midnight
Run what it is. I think the way I'd put
it is that this isn't a movie that's the sum
of its parts, right? That all those things make it
as great as it is. But man, De Niro and Grodin,
they make every one of those parts glisten just a
little bit more so that it all comes out looking shinier.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Well, I'm going to take us there. We're going to
get right into De Niro and Grodin and those standout
moments in the movie that really do make this film.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I agree with you.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
But first I'll say, no, I'm not going to have
anything revelatory to offer as well, nor do I find
anything about the filmmaking to be revelatory here. This is
one of those sacred cows where it turns out I
had pretty much the same experience with it that I
did 35 years ago.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
And you know what? That's That's worth something, too.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
It offers almost entirely the same pleasures, though I will say,
and we'll get into this here more in a second,
I will say that some of the pathos of the
film is heightened with a little bit more maturity and perspective.
And I certainly have a greater perspective on the acting
talents of Robert De Niro and Charles Grodin compared to
(13:21):
what I had back in 1988 when I saw this
for the first of probably... 30 times on television.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I'm sure it was HBO.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
One other quick aside, though, I said there's not going
to be any revelations and there.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Really won't be.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
But you mentioned titles like the Blues Brothers and you
think about planes, trains and automobiles and some of these
other films that are touchstones. I still also found myself
thinking occasionally of a movie like Heat and seeing seeing
his Jack Walsh character is not that too distant from
his Neil McCauley character. his code, his determination to do
(14:01):
the job the right way. He's got an integrity about him.
That man, Neil McCauley, is an absolute criminal by any standard,
by any normal definition. But they share a lot in
common in terms of their sensibility and the way they
view the world, also in terms of their sarcasm. So
that was something, I guess, that surprised me a little bit.
(14:21):
But before those moments of pathos really come together Josh
let's talk about the comedy let's talk about De Niro
and how deftly he handles the comedy and people need
to understand I think some folks listening will remember you
know like when Analyze This came out and it was
oh it's De Niro as a comedian which I understand
(14:42):
at the time felt a little different maybe because of
a recent slate of work that he'd done but back
in 88 it really was a case where I don't
think a lot of people were thinking of the king
of comedy as an actual comedy And so to see
him do straight comedy like he does here was a
bit of a surprise. And then it's not a surprise
at all that we find maybe the most talented actor
(15:04):
of his generation is just as good with those comedic
moments as he is with anything that's dramatic. And this
is one for me that I actually have highlighted on
the show before. When we did our top five Robert
De Niro scenes, it was way back on episode 341.
I had as my number five, what is my favorite
gag in this entire movie? And it's a pure De
(15:26):
Niro moment. It's the bit with the sunglasses and Yafet
Kodo in the car. And then as he walks away
with Alonzo Mosley's badge and ID, that little unexpected turn
he does, like he's a fed, like he's a G-man
(15:47):
or whatever from... a TV show, a crime TV show,
acting all suave and cool, turns to absolutely no one
and flashes the badge in this little kind of crouch position.
It's hilarious, something you completely don't expect from that character
and adds this moment of levity and also sets up
what is going to become one of the recurring gags
(16:08):
throughout the film that always delivers. Every time Yafet Kodo
gets pissed because someone thinks he's not Alonzo Mosley, it works.
Another moment of interaction between them, and it's another physical
bit by De Niro that stood out to me this time,
is when they're on the phone, I think they've now
(16:31):
had to get off the bus. So they're trying to
get Joe Peneliano to wire them the money so they
can get on a bus. They're on foot at this point.
And he's getting very frustrated, even more frustrated with Peneliano's character.
And he starts yelling and he says something like, don't
start with me, Eddie. I will shoot him and dump
(16:51):
him in the swamp. And they don't cut so you
could see Grodin's face, but you can tell that Grodin
makes a face like, come on, are you really going
to do that? And De Niro, mid-yelling at Eddie, shakes
his head. No, no, I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
And something about that playfulness between them and him even
feeling this really tough former ex-cop, now bounty hunter, who
seems to hate this guy for how annoying he's making
this journey, he still has the instinct to tell him
everything's okay, and he wouldn't really do that to him,
(17:31):
which reveals something about his character. And I think that
goodness and that innate sense of doing the right thing,
which absolutely is a through line with this film.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I think that element of playfulness is crucial to De
Niro's performance here, because you're right, this was his first
pure comedy if you you know action comedy buddy comedy
however you want to call this it's it's mostly a
comedy and he is having fun with that it's not
just that he can do it it's that he's clearly
enjoying it i think that's what the little flashing of
the badge crouch is all about as you can see
(18:04):
how that is a character touch but it's also a
deniro touch it's all about deniro showing how far he
is willing to take this in terms of improvisation. I
would like to think, you know, maybe that was in
the script. I don't know, but I do know that
a ton of improvisation was at work between he and
Grodin and their scenes together. And yeah, I think this
(18:25):
is just where we see how much fun De Niro
is having with this. It's also, as you're describing how
there are flashes of other characters he would even do later,
that's because this isn't, you know, this is a slight
turning of posture of the kind of guys we mostly
think of when we think of De Niro, right? He's
not doing something incredibly different, but in a way it's
(18:48):
even more challenging to just make that little shift. And
yet that small shift is why you get so many
of the laughs. It's just, he still has that familiar grimace, right?
But there's a little bit of a smile to it.
Or at least the smile has a little less menace
than it would in his other roles, in most of
(19:09):
his other roles.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
But maybe, Josh, that's the only adjustment otherwise, because I
think that's the secret.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
To him being so effective here, right?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
De Niro isn't approaching it any different.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Nope.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
He's not playing any of this as comedy. He is
playing the character. He's playing the script. He's playing against
the other character. It's all rooted in his character's behavior.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
And his character's desires.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
What did you do? Why aren't you popping up at
Chicago Police Department?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Something that really doesn't concern you.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
She hurt you, Jack? Yeah. I'm sorry. What are you
sorry about? I'm sorry you're hurt. I'm not hurt.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
You just said you were hurt.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I'm not hurt. You just said you were hurt. I
didn't say I was hurt. You said I was hurt.
I asked you if you were hurt, and you said, yeah,
I'm hurt. That's because you made me say it. You're
starting to put words in my mouth. Jack, you're a
grown man. You have control over your own words. You're
goddamn right I do. So here come two words for you.
Shut the fuck up. He is so good with Grodin.
I mean, those are the scenes where things, Grodin is
(20:16):
good on his own. You know, I think he is,
he's maybe offering, if you think about his persona, this
persona of disdain, usually. He tempers that here with a
surprising gentleness. So on his own, I think Grodin is good.
But man, when they're together, and I think of two
moments for me that are among my favorites. Look at
(20:39):
De Niro's face. that he pulls during that moment where
the Duke is having an imaginary conversation between the two
of them, and he's voicing both parts on the train
when they've jumped on the train. And De Niro's face
just goes from boiling rage to you see him being
reluctantly worn down by the fact that this is so ridiculous,
(21:02):
what he's hearing, and quite funny, that it gets reduced
to this bemused simmer. And I love that in terms
of just not even verbal anger, interplay between them, but
just how De Niro is using his face to react.
And then the other sequences, we've referenced this as well already,
but where they get to work with each other rather
than against each other when they pose as agents investigating
(21:25):
counterfeit bills in that saloon.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
And they end up.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Getting into this circular, nonsensical conversation about why the owner's
nickname is Red. What's the name of your establishment?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Red's Corner Bar.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Are you Red?
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
You dye your hair? Why do they call you Red?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Oh, it's short for Red Wood. My last name's Wood.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
What's your first name? Bill. Thank you for your cooperation, Bill.
Getting to see them work together in that sequence, I think,
is just so great. But if you look at Grodin again,
just what he's doing here, I did not remember. I
was really surprised how he warms into the ridiculousness of
(22:09):
the Duke. That first scene where we see him at
the house... with the dog he doesn't really go for
a laugh at all in that sequence he plays it
pretty calm and I think that's all to let things
build build build until the big blow up on the
plane no I can't I can't.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
No no Of course, it's all an act.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
But before that, what is he doing? What is the
Duke doing? He's watching. He's studying. He's examining Jack.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
And he's knowing exactly..
Speaker 2 (22:54):
What buttons to push. And then even after that blow
up on the plane, he doesn't stay at that level.
He goes back to being mostly serene. I love how
he receives Jack's physical threats with it's almost not out
of fear. He doesn't face them with fear. It's like
he's disappointed in Jack. It's almost as if he's been
told like they just went to an ice cream shop
and they were out of his favorite flavor. That's his
(23:15):
face when Jack threatens him physically. Yeah. He's slightly disappointed
at him. And then how about the moment where the
bank teller is telling Jack his card has declined and
Grodin just winks. You know, winks at her like, you
and I are in on this. Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So I just, you know, Grodin, as good as De
Niro is, I think the secret to unlocking De Niro's
performance is the presence that Grodin brings in In every moment,
every single moment, the patience he has, the not going
for the laugh immediately, the waiting to see what will
come to him in the moment. Back to your point
(23:53):
about Jack, because that's part of the Duke's character as well.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
His patience is key.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
His intelligence as a character and as a performer in
terms of his choices is also key. It's what adds
interesting layers to these characters and then ultimately to the movie.
And an example of that for me is to watch
it and start to see, to your point, about how
he plays it, how the Duke watches, observes, takes in information,
(24:22):
understanding that even though he seems to be the person
who is in a position of helplessness, and Jack is
the brute who is taking him in, and certainly can
control him physically, and he suggests that he's always in
control of the situation, we know from watching Grodin that
actually he is slyly determining a lot of this. And
(24:45):
that's why there's a great moment when he says something like,
you know, at some point I'm going to have to
give you the.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Slip, right? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
And he's got supreme confidence in it. And Jack doesn't
understand where that's coming from and thinks that's hilarious that
the Duke would ever, ever even imagine that he could
get away from him.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
But we know we've been watching and we know that
he's smarter and and more conniving than he seems, and
that he probably has it in him. He's gotten this far.
He can probably get away from Jack, right? And so
here's my question for you. As you think about all that,
and it sounds like you had a similar reaction to
Grodin in his performance, when he says to Jack, maybe
(25:26):
we should stop in Chicago and see your wife and
daughter when he hears about their story, is that because
the Duke is someone who genuinely cares about that and
would actually like to go down that path and maybe
help people? Is he this Pollyanna figure that he pretends
(25:48):
to be, that he seems to be? Or is he 100%
just looking for a way to continue to get Jack
off his game, to get him to take different routes,
to put up more obstacles and prolong this entire adventure?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I think he's genuine.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Or is it both?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, I mean, it might be a little bit of both,
but I don't think he sets that up or encourages
that as his big opportunity to escape because there are
plenty of other opportunities. I got the impression more is
the more time they spent together, the less the Duke
wanted to escape. And there's two reasons for that. One
(26:26):
is he's actually enjoying this relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
And the other is he might start to feel, realize
he's probably safest in Jack's hands. I mean, for as
much as he thinks he's possibly smarter than him or
can give him the slip, Jack has proven he can
get them out of some pretty tight scrapes. And this
might be, you know, just part of him realizing I'm
(26:50):
safer at this point to ride along with this guy
as long as I can. I don't know, but I
do think it is connected. And the reason I think
it's mostly motivated by, you know, good, thoughts or a
good hope for Jack and his well-being and his relationships
goes back to this thing I mentioned about the debates
they have about what is the right thing to do.
(27:11):
Was it heroic for the Duke to embezzle this money
from a mobster and give it away to charity? Okay,
but did he keep some? How much did he keep?
Was that right? Should he have given it all away?
Why is Jack pursuing this bounty? Is Jack doing it?
just out of, you know, pure greed for the money?
(27:32):
Is he, you know, on the side of the gangsters
if he does let them get the Duke? So there
are a lot of complications here. And I think it
came to a head for me in that very strange
moment where it's like an outpost, almost like a, it's
not even a town, but a Native American outpost they
find themselves in where, you There is, you know, there's
(27:53):
no way out here except for this small prop plane
that the Duke finds. And so after that all goes down,
they get into an argument here. And even Jack agrees
with this, right? Yeah. When the Duke argues, it was
okay for me to steal the plane because I was
saving my own life. It was not okay for you
to steal their truck because you were just doing that
(28:14):
to make money off of my life. And it's just
packed into and batted back and forth. as funnily as
all the comic lines as well. But it is that
moment of clarity where you see they've kind of been
having this argument the entire trip about every decision that
is made is, was this the right honorable thing to do?
(28:34):
So yeah, I think all of that, I see the
encouragement to go catch up with his ex-wife as part
of that for the Duke. Jack, let's be fair about this.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
You lied to me first. What?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
At the river.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Oh, get the... You lied to me first. You got
some nerve. No, no, you lied to me first. You
lied to me first.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yes, yes, I lied to you first, but you had
no knowledge I was lying about my fear of flying
at the river when you lied to me.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
So as far as you knew, you lied to me first.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I can't even argue with you.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I agree that that tension is there, and I mean
the tension where you can watch it and almost feel
like he's having fun or that he wants to stay
with Jack and maybe even does feel safe with Jack,
even though his life is constantly put in danger. At
the same time, I never lose sight of the fact
that it seems to sink in frequently with the Duke,
(29:34):
that the fact is, if they get to LA, the
closer they get to LA, the closer he is to death.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And so I think that for him, it's more about
the fact that I ascribe total genuineness and honor in
him as a man wanting to help this bounty hunter
out and go have this poignant moment and maybe even
a sort of redemptive moment But at the same time,
there's at least a percentage of it. There has to
(30:02):
be a little bit of a percentage of it that
is him just trying to come up with barriers, things
that might possibly let him escape or keep him from death.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
And I want to give you one other De Niro moment.
Every detour does help him.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I give you that.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Every detour helps him. Without a doubt, right?
Speaker 3 (30:17):
But one other moment that I love from De Niro
that I think also talks about behavior and the depth
he gives to the character and the nature of their
relationship and gives it, even early on, so much more
weight than it could have. And this could be completely
just my interpretation of it. You might see this moment
or we could look at the faces De Niro's making
(30:38):
and interpret it differently. But remember the scene, it's the
one where they're talking about going to Chicago and seeing
the wife and daughter. I think it starts, they're eating
dinner or De Niro's eating dinner. He's eating that chicken wing.
and it starts that whole conversation that really opens up
that dialogue about like being in denial about what the
(30:58):
right thing to do is and doing the wrong thing. Anyway,
he's eating these chicken wings, even though he knows that
they're bad for him. The way that scene opens though,
is just silently with De Niro chewing and the Duke
watching him. And we get the sense that, you know,
he's quietly judging him or at least quietly considering the damage.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
This is doing to him.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
And the face that De Niro is making is, the reaction,
everything within his body suggests to me someone who is
aware of that judgment and actually is a little bit
bothered by it. He's someone who, again, comes off as
so brusque and there's all that bravado and that sense
of control. And in that moment, it's as if he
(31:41):
knows he's being watched. He knows he's doing something quote
unquote wrong, and.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
He's a little bit ashamed of it. He would never
say that. He would never admit it. But De Niro
is lets that in.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
He allows for that to be an interpretation of the moment.
So I want to get to the pathos. And I
give Gallo, the screenwriter here, some credit in that even
if we think we know it's coming, that eventually he's
going to end up on the doorstep face-to-face with his
(32:12):
ex-wife and daughter again after that's introduced, I could see
a lesser film concocting an extremely stupid ruse to get
them there. And maybe some people watching this would say
that is what happens with the shootout in Chicago and
they get away on foot.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
But the fact that that moment comes, not because Jack
has some big change of heart or all of a
sudden feels like he has to do this and we
don't really believe that his character would do it. The
fact that the only way he ends up back on
her doorstep is because he truly has no other choice,
that he is so desperate for help that he goes
(32:52):
to the only person whose help he can ask. I
appreciated that. And then when we get there, that interaction
with Wendy Phillips is gale. Everything about their energy suggests
and sells the history that they have. And the feelings
(33:14):
that have changed dramatically... between the both of them, but
that are still there.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
And I mentioned the head.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Shake that I love so much that De Niro gives
in that comedic moment on the phone where he lets
the Duke know that he doesn't mean it. How about
the four, I think it's four head turns that we get,
those silent head turns that we get when he sees
his daughter.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Denise? You got so big.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
The way De Niro even kind of asks her her
name when he says Denise, it's a question. He just
can't believe that that's really her, that that's his daughter
who he hasn't seen in so long. And that line delivery,
you got so big. The hugs where he doesn't really
know what to do. He hugs her like three times,
you know, kind of briefly as opposed to one big hug.
(34:10):
And then her going back out into the driveway and
trying to help her dad despite the fact that they've
been estranged. I'm not going to lie, Josh, it's midnight
run and it got a little dusty twice sitting on
my couch watching this movie in those moments.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I think that's an overall well-handled scene. I can't say
it got things dusty for me. Maybe my favorite moment
in it, though, is the awkwardness that they allow and
give space for. And it's right in that sequence you're
talking about in sort of the entranceway to the house
after his wife has left. the room for a few minutes.
(34:47):
And so here's who we're left with. The Duke, Jack,
and this daughter who, as you pointed out, he's not
even entirely sure. It's been so long at first that
it is his daughter. I think is Danielle Duclos plays
the daughter, I believe. And yeah, no dialogue. There's like,
I don't know, maybe 40 seconds of De Niro just
(35:09):
kind of looking around awkwardly, wandering around a little bit,
not knowing what else they've been reintroduced at this point.
And some sort of conversation should happen, right? And it's not.
And the movie just sits there and lets us sit
in that. And that was one of those bits where
(35:30):
it's unexpected, right? I didn't, we know this scene is coming.
I think it plays out, you know, as mostly we
expected probably, but I did not expect a little moment
like that. And even Grodin is good. They're, again, patience,
not going for a laugh, You're seeing his face in
that scene, and you're also seeing how awkward he is
in that moment, maybe even thinking, I shouldn't have pushed this.
(35:53):
This was a bad idea. I was hoping this would
end in a better way. But instead, it's become really
uncomfortable for everyone. And yeah, it was brave of the
film to let us sit in that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
And here I want to go back to what you
were saying in terms of what stood out to you
about the substance, or I suppose— one of the morals
of this movie, or at least the moral discussions the
movie is having. I, as I think about, again, De
Niro's character and what's so effective in terms of rooting
(36:26):
all of this in their behavior, at the core of
this movie, it's not the gags, it's not the action,
it's not plot or anything else, it really is character.
And with character, I'm going to go to the film
spotting word of every episode, it's about the stakes.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
And there are stakes, right, in.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That there are these Time-driven stakes, what is ostensibly what
this movie is about and what Jack's motivation is.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Will he make it? Will he complete the job?
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Will he get back before the deadline Friday night at
midnight or whatever it is? It really does, though, turn
out to be, over the course of the movie, a
story about integrity.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, that's the perfect word. Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
It's integrity.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
That's what they're arguing about.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
With that comes being willing to do the right thing,
even in incredibly tough situations.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
That's maybe the definition of integrity is sticking to what
you believe in despite the challenges and the adversity. And
so with that, you've got these two men who couldn't
be more different, but actually are equal misfits in terms
of society and their professions, right? He notices that his
accounting firm is on the take. The police force is
(37:37):
on the take. They both end up on the outs
with the bad guy, the mob guy in this case,
Jimmy Serrano, really great, Dennis Farina.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Oh, so good.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
And so then the story becomes, actually, for us as viewers,
it really becomes a matter of whether or not Jack
will really be able to turn the Duke in at
the end or not. Will he really be able to
do it? And it's a legitimate question, I think, based
on what we know about that character. And part of
us even maybe wants him to, right? Like, I want
(38:09):
Jack to get the money. I want him to complete
the job. And the Duke can be kind of annoying.
I don't know how I would fare after that whole
flight scenario and getting kicked off the airplane, right? Be
hard for me to forgive him for that, Josh, no
matter what happened. But of course, we also want him
to do the right thing because that's so central to
(38:29):
his character. And so the way that's all fleshed out
are these little moments that again, I think maybe lesser
movies wouldn't give us are like the one where Jack
is formulating the plan. And yeah, that Kodo Mosley looks
at him and can tell that he's getting almost giddy
about this, which is something we haven't seen from the
(38:50):
Walsh character yet. And he says that he's getting excited
because he gets to feel like a, a cop again,
you know, all of his behavior, everything he does, those
moments of excitement, They inform our understanding of the character
and ultimately those stakes. And, you know, our friend Sam,
who has seen this movie even more times than me
(39:12):
and every time gives it five stars, he had a
nice little theory or idea too on Letterboxd where he
said that even at the end, his decision to uncuff
the Duke could be partly about that's another moment where
he gets to feel like a cop again. He gets
to not just be kind of the automaton who goes,
and does the job, but he gets to make a decision.
(39:32):
He gets to take the cuffs off of someone and
that it's really about part and parcel with his integrity
is it's really about his dignity. And the fact that
his dignity in that moment has been restored more than anything.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah, I'm so glad you landed on the word integrity
because I think that is essentially what they're quibbling over
in almost every discussion they have. It's not inflated always
as it is in that discussion at the outpost about
the plane versus the truck. That's where it maybe comes
to the foreground. But even when they're quibbling over what
he's eating, that's kind of at the root of it
(40:07):
is that question of integrity.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yeah, absolutely it is. And there's another hilarious exchange where
it's at the root of it. And- I'll mention this
in the context of another thing that I saw from
Sam on Letterboxd that I didn't see until earlier today,
not before I saw the film. In one of his
viewings a while back, Sam said, and of course he
(40:29):
did still give it five stars and adores the film,
but he said that this is the first time that
the ending ever troubled him a little bit. He said,
I don't believe Jack would take the money. He said
he's got too much integrity to use stolen money to
open a coffee shop or anything else for that matter.
And I bring that up because Josh, I was so
dialed into his integrity and these ethical and philosophical debates,
(40:53):
if you will, that actually populate this movie that it
had never occurred to me before until watching it last
night that I had a moment where I thought to myself,
I feel like Jack would give him the money back.
I feel like Jack would actually be so against using
money that came from Jimmy Serrano that he doesn't technically
have any claim to no matter what reasons he would
(41:16):
use it for, or no matter how bad the guy is, right,
that he's taking it from, ultimately in Serrano, he would
never actually use it. He would never take it. And
the movie suggests that this is kind of his redemption,
this restoration of dignity at the end. It's partly when
he gets this money as well. And for me, I
(41:37):
guess ultimately the way I came to justify it or Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
That the Duke actually is just fine with flying and,
in fact, has the ability to fly. He didn't know that.
He doesn't know it till later. The implication, the idea being, right,
that what you do, what your choices say about you
in the moment with the information you have at your disposal,
that's what really matters, not ultimately how it shakes out.
(42:31):
What matters is what you do in the moment. And
in that moment, he... has already decided to let the
Duke go. He has no expectation in that moment that
he's going to be rewarded financially for it at all.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
He's prepared to.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Walk away and never see that guy again or reap
any benefits. And in fact, he's missing out on $ 100, 000
that he has more than earned.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
This is at the end you're talking about now.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
He's at the end. He's actually losing money.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
But because he's getting rewarded for something he'd already decided
to do and had made the right decision based on that,
not motivated by the money, I think he can justify
it for himself as well.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
That's it. As you were talking, I was trying to
remember and it's been like a week since I've seen
it again. There's a caveat. There was a little detail
that takes place and that's it. That's what you described.
That's why it is.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Take it. You already let me go.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yes. That's why it fits with this whole understanding of integrity,
why it's okay for him to take the money. That's
what it is. That's why it works for me at least. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
So lastly, just how about Midnight Run being one of
those all-time that guy movies? We've already mentioned it a
little bit with Dennis Farina showing up as Serrano, but
as Serrano and Yefet Kodo as Alonzo Mosley. I love
seeing John Ashton again, and I say again because we
did talk about him and his relationship with Axel Foley
(44:02):
and Beverly Hills Cop, the other Martin Brest film. Joe Pantoliano, again,
I didn't know this until Sam mentioned it on Twitter today,
but it's insane that there have been three movies in
a row talked about of the show, and he's been
in all of them.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Joey Pants, I think we're supposed to call him. It's
been my month of Joey Pants between Risky Business, The Fugitive,
back with Michael Phillips, and now you're in Midnight Run.
And the other thing, you know, you mentioned how, you know,
De Niro here made you think about De Niro and Heat.
How about Philip Baker Hall here?
Speaker 1 (44:37):
His name's Sidney.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
His name's Sidney. So I did a quick Google search
and couldn't mail it down, but it does seem to
be the case that In Paul Thomas Anderson's heartache, he's
supposed to be the same character.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
That's so funny that you looked it up because I
had the same thought. I'm like, could this really be
a coincidence? And maybe I just ran out of time,
but I decided not to even search for it. I
was like, of course it's a coincidence. It just has
to be, but it probably isn't.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, it probably isn't is what I'm going to say.
I gave it probably five to eight minutes, and then
I was like, I got to move on with my day.
So I don't have it definitively anywhere that PTA said anything. this.
Maybe that's out there somewhere and a listener knows. But yeah,
he's a mob advisor here. That would track, right, with
the sort of mysterious Sidney's past in hard eight. And
(45:23):
I think that's, even if it's not the case, it's
lovely that it works out that way. I heard somebody
picked up my dukes in New York. It's old news, Sidney.
I'm already on it. I don't have to tell you
what'll happen if he becomes a government witness. I can
assure you that will not be the case.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, I assumed you were taking that position, but I'm
supposed to advise you against such acts.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Sidney, relax. Have a cream soda. Everything is going to
be all over within a few minutes.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
We hope you enjoyed that conversation from our archive about
Midnight Run from 2023. Josh, a 35th anniversary review. Once again,
we remind you that as a Film Spotting Family member,
you get access to the Film Spotting Archive. You also
get bonus shows. You get a weekly newsletter. You get
early ad-free shows and more. It's all at filmspottingfamily.com. And
(46:07):
don't forget, on Friday's flagship show, it is our top
five Needle Drops. It's a good one with Rico Galeano
from Mubi. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no
purpose anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Goodbye.
What kind of a show are you guys putting on
here today?
Speaker 2 (00:06):
You're not interested in art? No. Well, look, we're going
to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hey, film spotters.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
On Friday, Josh, we will have a recommendation and a
golden brick nomination for a new movie out in limited release.
It's called It Ends. And you have to call it
a road trip movie, not a fun road trip movie,
but a road trip movie as... They really do spend
(00:35):
almost the entire runtime of the film in a car,
driving in a car.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
You could say it's the ultimate road trip movie.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
The ultimate road trip movie. They should have brought more snacks.
They really should have stopped at a 7-Eleven and loaded up.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
They needed more provisions for this trip. And that got
us thinking about other memorable road trip movies. road trip
movies we've discussed, maybe given the sacred cow treatment to.
And of course, that got us thinking about one that's
in our pantheon, yes, of all time greats, Midnight Run.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
It's that good.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
It is. Yeah, if already you're scoffing, we hope you
continue listening because I think we make a good case
for it.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, continue scoffing right up until about, I don't know,
eight minutes into our conversation and then you'll be convinced.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
We'll see if that's the mark or not mileage mileage
may vary.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
I'll leave you. I'll leave you with that.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Here is our conversation from 2023 as a film spotting
family member, you get access to conversations like this one
at your fingertips. Anytime you want just one of the
benefits of being a film spotting family member. You can
learn more at film spotting family.com.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Enjoy. Robert De Niro is a bounty hunter. Your mother
ever teach you how to talk nice to people and
not shoot at them?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Charles Brodin is an accountant who embezzled $ 15 million from
the mob.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
It is truly in your best interest to just relax.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I'm totally relaxed. I want this guy taken off. I
want him taken off fast. The mob wants him dead.
The FBI want him alive. I'm going to bring him
into federal court. Do I make myself understood? These sunglasses,
they're really nice. Are they government-issued, or do all you
guys go to the same store to get them? And
his bail bondsman wants.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Him in L.A.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
In 72 hours.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Josh, you know how presidents will often pardon a bunch
of folks just before leaving office?
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Well, it's similar with film-spotting hosts in the Pantheon. At
least it was with your predecessor. What better way to
commemorate the last show of a guy I was introduced
to and only really ever referred to as Matty Ballgame
than to share our top five movie character nicknames? Indiana
Jones came in at number two for Maddie. The Duke,
(02:59):
as in John Mardukas, not Wayne, didn't actually end up
on his list. But with that episode, both Steven Spielberg's
Raiders of the Lost Ark and Martin Bress' Midnight Run
were enshrined forever. Or forever-ish, as we're currently rethinking the
Pantheon's purpose, process, and picks. I think it's fair to
(03:20):
say that Midnight Run has always been the Pantheon's most
head-scratching inductee. Sure, many a Gen X man like myself, Maddie,
and Maddie's former Chicago roommate, show producer and co-founder Sam
Van Halgren, have always had a soft spot for it.
One of the all-time great films, though, on the same
list as The Godfather Part II, Taxi Driver, and Goodfellas,
(03:44):
Run may not be as revered as that trio of
films that also happen to star Robert De Niro But
it does hold the 95% on Rotten Tomatoes, and also
has the distinction of getting the Chicago Way seal of approval.
All four of the city's major print critics at the
time were favorable. In his three-and-a-half-star Sun-Times review, Roger Ebert wrote,
(04:06):
Whoever cast De Niro and Grodin must have had a
sixth sense for the chemistry they would have. They worked
together so smoothly and with such an evident sense of
fun that even their silences are intriguing. Ebert's best frenemy
Gene Siskel called it, Funny, unpredictable, and refreshingly adult in
the Tribune, Trib colleague Dave Kerr said, Midnight Run touches
on one of the great mysteries of the movies. How
(04:26):
is it that the tritest material can come to life
when touched by the right director and the right actors?
Even the Chicago Reader's Jonathan Rosenbaum was along for the
cross-country ride.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Mostly.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Thanking the performances of De Niro and Grodin for turning
this sow's ear into a plausible vehicle for a buddy movie.
Turns out, The case of Jonathan Rosenbaum's Midnight Run reaction
is as curious as the movie's pantheon inclusion. Run's 25th
anniversary in 2013 offered Rosenbaum the opportunity to reflect on
his original take and on the presumptions film critics invariably
(05:01):
make when writing their reviews. He offered four different exhibits.
Here's the opening to Exhibit A, which he began scribing
a few hours after walking out of the theater. If
it were merely a matter of script, direction, and technical credits...
This formula cross-country chase comedy wouldn't be worth a minute
of one's time, much less the price of a movie ticket.
(05:22):
Martin Bress, who launched his career a little over a
decade ago by leaping from a forgettable $ 33, 000 independent feature
called Hot Tomorrows to a $ 5 million heist comedy called
Going in Style, followed by Beverly Hills Cop, comes on
like a competent, if faceless, TV director, scoring with all
the desired effects of his mechanical mise-en-scene, but leaving no
discernible memory traces behind him. The script by George Gallo,
(05:45):
a newcomer whose only previously produced screenplay was for Wise Guys,
is as formulaic as they come, even down to multiple
and periodic plot twists that seem to come along before
every invisible station break. Danny Elfman's pop score is aggressively banal,
and Donald Thorne's cinematography is thoroughly unremarkable. What this movie
has is lively performances by two of the best actors
(06:06):
in the business, Robert De Niro and Charles Grodin. Without them,
it would be little more than a hole in the screen.
The following night, he took a look at one of
those Brest films he mentions, Going in Style, which led
to a new reaction, Exhibit B. While I still haven't
caught up with Beverly Hills Cop, Martin Brest's other features
to date all have certain traits in common. Hot Tomorrows,
(06:28):
Going in Style, and Midnight Run are all mainly comic
buddy movies with melancholy subtext. All encourage their lead actors
to ham it up, and each has an aggressive and
synthetic musical score that editorializes and not so gently prods
the audience, telling us how and when to react. Giving
actors a lot of freedom while giving spectators very little
freedom at all produces a strange push-me-pull-you effect reminiscent of
(06:51):
certain popular TV series. The usual point of such shows
isn't surprise, but the chance to savor minor variations on
the already known. Not marveling at what Ralph Cramden says
on The Honeymooners, but appreciating the particular inflection that Jackie
Gleason brings to the line this time. This strategy, a
triumph of embroidery over design, would be unthinkable without an
interminable backlog of familiar lines, gestures, and attitudes, and that
(07:14):
is precisely what lurks behind De Niro's role as a
bounty hunter and former cop in Midnight Run. Rosenbaum's point
here is that whether De Niro and Grodin overcome the
film's limitations or are a product of them is something
a reviewer really can't know for sure. A third possible
review of Midnight Run, he then explains, might deal with
De Niro and Grodin in relation to each other. rather
(07:36):
than as some sort of united front that functions either
with or against the rest of the movie. And a
fourth could deal with how the movie works independently of
what they bring to it. And that's when we get
Exhibits C and D, which are, respectively, Josh, his most
generous and harshest. That negativity aside, any movie that prompts
Jonathan Rosenbaum to pen four different reviews sounds like a
(07:59):
Pantheon movie to me. But what say you? And which
of his tacks will you be taking? The one that
credits De Niro and Grodin for elevating undeniably formulaic material?
The one that suggests Martin Bress may actually deserve some
auteurist accolades? Or do you have a response so idiosyncratic
that you might inspire Rosenbaum to get to work on
(08:19):
Exhibit E?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, not sure if Rosenbaum is going to take another
whack at Midnight Run at this stage in his career.
We could probably jump right into the Pantheon question, but
it might be more fun to save that at the
end after talking about our reactions in general, and I
would credit a little more highly some of those elements
(08:41):
that Rosenbaum called out. Certainly not the strengths of the film.
The strength of this movie is the star pairing. You
would have to be blind to not see that. Even
Rosenbaum at the very beginning saw that, despite his reservations.
But I think he didn't give Brest enough credit here,
along with the cinematographer he mentions, Donald E. Thorne, There
(09:04):
is nothing revelatory here, but there is enough comic blocking
and sturdy action set pieces to make those elements of
the movie a plus. I think they bring something to
this film. Similarly, George Gallo's screenplay, I was surprised at
The level of sophistication going on here, even from a
(09:26):
structure point of view, think about how this has a
very clever planes to trains to automobiles to walking on foot,
circular motion, then back up that ladder again. Maybe not exactly,
but pretty much back up that ladder with the nice
little grace note at the end of Jack Walsh saying,
(09:47):
I guess I'm walking, right? What he's not going to
take the cab. So that's just a little... you know,
nice screenplay touch. And maybe we'll get into more of
this in detail, but I think there's some interesting questions
going on. on throughout the movie about what is the
right thing to do? Who is doing the right thing?
And again, that is a more sophisticated screenplay than what
(10:10):
Rosenbaum described, to my mind. And one of the reasons that, yes,
Midnight Run more than held up on this revisit for
me We've mentioned on previous shows how I have not
seen it since probably late 80s, possibly early 90s. As
soon as it started, though, I was taken back to
(10:32):
where I did see this. It was definitely one of
those at the neighbor's house on VHS. Wouldn't have seen
it in my house. Just, you know, rated R at
that point was probably not in general. I'd seen some
rated R films. They weren't, you know, they weren't verboten,
but this was probably not one that was going to
get the pass.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
A lot of swearing for the Larson house.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
A little bit, a little bit. This was definitely the
neighbor's house viewing. And no wonder I loved this thing
at 14. Every other line that comes out of a
character's mouth is some sort of smart-ass comment. And very
much like Bress, Beverly Hills Cop, which we talked about
on the show, Adam, I also got similar vibes to
(11:15):
the Blues Brothers in terms of this smart-ass quality. Both
of those middle school transitioning into high school favorites for Josh.
Still enjoyed that element. Yes, absolutely. Does every line sing?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
No.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
No. I think we've already heard maybe one that, to
my mind, isn't quite up to the quality of quoting
or remembering. Fistophobia. Kind of groaned at fistophobia this time.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Fistophobia is not one of the better lines.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I got to admit. But most of these absolutely land
and particularly landed for me back when I was around
that age. So an incredible pleasure to see this hold
up in the ways we're going to get into. I'll
pause here and we'll return to De Niro and Grodin.
Because I want to give that its entirely own section.
But for me, yeah, pleasant surprise that some of those
(12:05):
other elements I think are worth noting for making Midnight
Run what it is. I think the way I'd put
it is that this isn't a movie that's the sum
of its parts, right? That all those things make it
as great as it is. But man, De Niro and Grodin,
they make every one of those parts glisten just a
little bit more so that it all comes out looking shinier.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Well, I'm going to take us there. We're going to
get right into De Niro and Grodin and those standout
moments in the movie that really do make this film.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I agree with you.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
But first I'll say, no, I'm not going to have
anything revelatory to offer as well, nor do I find
anything about the filmmaking to be revelatory here. This is
one of those sacred cows where it turns out I
had pretty much the same experience with it that I
did 35 years ago.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
And you know what? That's That's worth something, too.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
It offers almost entirely the same pleasures, though I will say,
and we'll get into this here more in a second,
I will say that some of the pathos of the
film is heightened with a little bit more maturity and perspective.
And I certainly have a greater perspective on the acting
talents of Robert De Niro and Charles Grodin compared to
(13:21):
what I had back in 1988 when I saw this
for the first of probably... 30 times on television.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I'm sure it was HBO.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
One other quick aside, though, I said there's not going
to be any revelations and there.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Really won't be.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
But you mentioned titles like the Blues Brothers and you
think about planes, trains and automobiles and some of these
other films that are touchstones. I still also found myself
thinking occasionally of a movie like Heat and seeing seeing
his Jack Walsh character is not that too distant from
his Neil McCauley character. his code, his determination to do
(14:01):
the job the right way. He's got an integrity about him.
That man, Neil McCauley, is an absolute criminal by any standard,
by any normal definition. But they share a lot in
common in terms of their sensibility and the way they
view the world, also in terms of their sarcasm. So
that was something, I guess, that surprised me a little bit.
(14:21):
But before those moments of pathos really come together Josh
let's talk about the comedy let's talk about De Niro
and how deftly he handles the comedy and people need
to understand I think some folks listening will remember you
know like when Analyze This came out and it was
oh it's De Niro as a comedian which I understand
(14:42):
at the time felt a little different maybe because of
a recent slate of work that he'd done but back
in 88 it really was a case where I don't
think a lot of people were thinking of the king
of comedy as an actual comedy And so to see
him do straight comedy like he does here was a
bit of a surprise. And then it's not a surprise
at all that we find maybe the most talented actor
(15:04):
of his generation is just as good with those comedic
moments as he is with anything that's dramatic. And this
is one for me that I actually have highlighted on
the show before. When we did our top five Robert
De Niro scenes, it was way back on episode 341.
I had as my number five, what is my favorite
gag in this entire movie? And it's a pure De
(15:26):
Niro moment. It's the bit with the sunglasses and Yafet
Kodo in the car. And then as he walks away
with Alonzo Mosley's badge and ID, that little unexpected turn
he does, like he's a fed, like he's a G-man
(15:47):
or whatever from... a TV show, a crime TV show,
acting all suave and cool, turns to absolutely no one
and flashes the badge in this little kind of crouch position.
It's hilarious, something you completely don't expect from that character
and adds this moment of levity and also sets up
what is going to become one of the recurring gags
(16:08):
throughout the film that always delivers. Every time Yafet Kodo
gets pissed because someone thinks he's not Alonzo Mosley, it works.
Another moment of interaction between them, and it's another physical
bit by De Niro that stood out to me this time,
is when they're on the phone, I think they've now
(16:31):
had to get off the bus. So they're trying to
get Joe Peneliano to wire them the money so they
can get on a bus. They're on foot at this point.
And he's getting very frustrated, even more frustrated with Peneliano's character.
And he starts yelling and he says something like, don't
start with me, Eddie. I will shoot him and dump
(16:51):
him in the swamp. And they don't cut so you
could see Grodin's face, but you can tell that Grodin
makes a face like, come on, are you really going
to do that? And De Niro, mid-yelling at Eddie, shakes
his head. No, no, I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
And something about that playfulness between them and him even
feeling this really tough former ex-cop, now bounty hunter, who
seems to hate this guy for how annoying he's making
this journey, he still has the instinct to tell him
everything's okay, and he wouldn't really do that to him,
(17:31):
which reveals something about his character. And I think that
goodness and that innate sense of doing the right thing,
which absolutely is a through line with this film.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I think that element of playfulness is crucial to De
Niro's performance here, because you're right, this was his first
pure comedy if you you know action comedy buddy comedy
however you want to call this it's it's mostly a
comedy and he is having fun with that it's not
just that he can do it it's that he's clearly
enjoying it i think that's what the little flashing of
the badge crouch is all about as you can see
(18:04):
how that is a character touch but it's also a
deniro touch it's all about deniro showing how far he
is willing to take this in terms of improvisation. I
would like to think, you know, maybe that was in
the script. I don't know, but I do know that
a ton of improvisation was at work between he and
Grodin and their scenes together. And yeah, I think this
(18:25):
is just where we see how much fun De Niro
is having with this. It's also, as you're describing how
there are flashes of other characters he would even do later,
that's because this isn't, you know, this is a slight
turning of posture of the kind of guys we mostly
think of when we think of De Niro, right? He's
not doing something incredibly different, but in a way it's
(18:48):
even more challenging to just make that little shift. And
yet that small shift is why you get so many
of the laughs. It's just, he still has that familiar grimace, right?
But there's a little bit of a smile to it.
Or at least the smile has a little less menace
than it would in his other roles, in most of
(19:09):
his other roles.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
But maybe, Josh, that's the only adjustment otherwise, because I
think that's the secret.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
To him being so effective here, right?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
De Niro isn't approaching it any different.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Nope.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
He's not playing any of this as comedy. He is
playing the character. He's playing the script. He's playing against
the other character. It's all rooted in his character's behavior.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
And his character's desires.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
What did you do? Why aren't you popping up at
Chicago Police Department?
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Something that really doesn't concern you.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
She hurt you, Jack? Yeah. I'm sorry. What are you
sorry about? I'm sorry you're hurt. I'm not hurt.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
You just said you were hurt.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I'm not hurt. You just said you were hurt. I
didn't say I was hurt. You said I was hurt.
I asked you if you were hurt, and you said, yeah,
I'm hurt. That's because you made me say it. You're
starting to put words in my mouth. Jack, you're a
grown man. You have control over your own words. You're
goddamn right I do. So here come two words for you.
Shut the fuck up. He is so good with Grodin.
I mean, those are the scenes where things, Grodin is
(20:16):
good on his own. You know, I think he is,
he's maybe offering, if you think about his persona, this
persona of disdain, usually. He tempers that here with a
surprising gentleness. So on his own, I think Grodin is good.
But man, when they're together, and I think of two
moments for me that are among my favorites. Look at
(20:39):
De Niro's face. that he pulls during that moment where
the Duke is having an imaginary conversation between the two
of them, and he's voicing both parts on the train
when they've jumped on the train. And De Niro's face
just goes from boiling rage to you see him being
reluctantly worn down by the fact that this is so ridiculous,
(21:02):
what he's hearing, and quite funny, that it gets reduced
to this bemused simmer. And I love that in terms
of just not even verbal anger, interplay between them, but
just how De Niro is using his face to react.
And then the other sequences, we've referenced this as well already,
but where they get to work with each other rather
than against each other when they pose as agents investigating
(21:25):
counterfeit bills in that saloon.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
And they end up.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Getting into this circular, nonsensical conversation about why the owner's
nickname is Red. What's the name of your establishment?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Red's Corner Bar.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Are you Red?
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
You dye your hair? Why do they call you Red?
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Oh, it's short for Red Wood. My last name's Wood.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
What's your first name? Bill. Thank you for your cooperation, Bill.
Getting to see them work together in that sequence, I think,
is just so great. But if you look at Grodin again,
just what he's doing here, I did not remember. I
was really surprised how he warms into the ridiculousness of
(22:09):
the Duke. That first scene where we see him at
the house... with the dog he doesn't really go for
a laugh at all in that sequence he plays it
pretty calm and I think that's all to let things
build build build until the big blow up on the
plane no I can't I can't.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
No no Of course, it's all an act.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
But before that, what is he doing? What is the
Duke doing? He's watching. He's studying. He's examining Jack.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
And he's knowing exactly..
Speaker 2 (22:54):
What buttons to push. And then even after that blow
up on the plane, he doesn't stay at that level.
He goes back to being mostly serene. I love how
he receives Jack's physical threats with it's almost not out
of fear. He doesn't face them with fear. It's like
he's disappointed in Jack. It's almost as if he's been
told like they just went to an ice cream shop
and they were out of his favorite flavor. That's his
(23:15):
face when Jack threatens him physically. Yeah. He's slightly disappointed
at him. And then how about the moment where the
bank teller is telling Jack his card has declined and
Grodin just winks. You know, winks at her like, you
and I are in on this. Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So I just, you know, Grodin, as good as De
Niro is, I think the secret to unlocking De Niro's
performance is the presence that Grodin brings in In every moment,
every single moment, the patience he has, the not going
for the laugh immediately, the waiting to see what will
come to him in the moment. Back to your point
(23:53):
about Jack, because that's part of the Duke's character as well.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
His patience is key.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
His intelligence as a character and as a performer in
terms of his choices is also key. It's what adds
interesting layers to these characters and then ultimately to the movie.
And an example of that for me is to watch
it and start to see, to your point, about how
he plays it, how the Duke watches, observes, takes in information,
(24:22):
understanding that even though he seems to be the person
who is in a position of helplessness, and Jack is
the brute who is taking him in, and certainly can
control him physically, and he suggests that he's always in
control of the situation, we know from watching Grodin that
actually he is slyly determining a lot of this. And
(24:45):
that's why there's a great moment when he says something like,
you know, at some point I'm going to have to
give you the.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Slip, right? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
And he's got supreme confidence in it. And Jack doesn't
understand where that's coming from and thinks that's hilarious that
the Duke would ever, ever even imagine that he could
get away from him.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
But we know we've been watching and we know that
he's smarter and and more conniving than he seems, and
that he probably has it in him. He's gotten this far.
He can probably get away from Jack, right? And so
here's my question for you. As you think about all that,
and it sounds like you had a similar reaction to
Grodin in his performance, when he says to Jack, maybe
(25:26):
we should stop in Chicago and see your wife and
daughter when he hears about their story, is that because
the Duke is someone who genuinely cares about that and
would actually like to go down that path and maybe
help people? Is he this Pollyanna figure that he pretends
(25:48):
to be, that he seems to be? Or is he 100%
just looking for a way to continue to get Jack
off his game, to get him to take different routes,
to put up more obstacles and prolong this entire adventure?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I think he's genuine.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Or is it both?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, I mean, it might be a little bit of both,
but I don't think he sets that up or encourages
that as his big opportunity to escape because there are
plenty of other opportunities. I got the impression more is
the more time they spent together, the less the Duke
wanted to escape. And there's two reasons for that. One
(26:26):
is he's actually enjoying this relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
And the other is he might start to feel, realize
he's probably safest in Jack's hands. I mean, for as
much as he thinks he's possibly smarter than him or
can give him the slip, Jack has proven he can
get them out of some pretty tight scrapes. And this
might be, you know, just part of him realizing I'm
(26:50):
safer at this point to ride along with this guy
as long as I can. I don't know, but I
do think it is connected. And the reason I think
it's mostly motivated by, you know, good, thoughts or a
good hope for Jack and his well-being and his relationships
goes back to this thing I mentioned about the debates
they have about what is the right thing to do.
(27:11):
Was it heroic for the Duke to embezzle this money
from a mobster and give it away to charity? Okay,
but did he keep some? How much did he keep?
Was that right? Should he have given it all away?
Why is Jack pursuing this bounty? Is Jack doing it?
just out of, you know, pure greed for the money?
(27:32):
Is he, you know, on the side of the gangsters
if he does let them get the Duke? So there
are a lot of complications here. And I think it
came to a head for me in that very strange
moment where it's like an outpost, almost like a, it's
not even a town, but a Native American outpost they
find themselves in where, you There is, you know, there's
(27:53):
no way out here except for this small prop plane
that the Duke finds. And so after that all goes down,
they get into an argument here. And even Jack agrees
with this, right? Yeah. When the Duke argues, it was
okay for me to steal the plane because I was
saving my own life. It was not okay for you
to steal their truck because you were just doing that
(28:14):
to make money off of my life. And it's just
packed into and batted back and forth. as funnily as
all the comic lines as well. But it is that
moment of clarity where you see they've kind of been
having this argument the entire trip about every decision that
is made is, was this the right honorable thing to do?
(28:34):
So yeah, I think all of that, I see the
encouragement to go catch up with his ex-wife as part
of that for the Duke. Jack, let's be fair about this.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
You lied to me first. What?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
At the river.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Oh, get the... You lied to me first. You got
some nerve. No, no, you lied to me first. You
lied to me first.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Yes, yes, I lied to you first, but you had
no knowledge I was lying about my fear of flying
at the river when you lied to me.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
So as far as you knew, you lied to me first.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I can't even argue with you.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I agree that that tension is there, and I mean
the tension where you can watch it and almost feel
like he's having fun or that he wants to stay
with Jack and maybe even does feel safe with Jack,
even though his life is constantly put in danger. At
the same time, I never lose sight of the fact
that it seems to sink in frequently with the Duke,
(29:34):
that the fact is, if they get to LA, the
closer they get to LA, the closer he is to death.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And so I think that for him, it's more about
the fact that I ascribe total genuineness and honor in
him as a man wanting to help this bounty hunter
out and go have this poignant moment and maybe even
a sort of redemptive moment But at the same time,
there's at least a percentage of it. There has to
(30:02):
be a little bit of a percentage of it that
is him just trying to come up with barriers, things
that might possibly let him escape or keep him from death.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
And I want to give you one other De Niro moment.
Every detour does help him.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I give you that.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Every detour helps him. Without a doubt, right?
Speaker 3 (30:17):
But one other moment that I love from De Niro
that I think also talks about behavior and the depth
he gives to the character and the nature of their
relationship and gives it, even early on, so much more
weight than it could have. And this could be completely
just my interpretation of it. You might see this moment
or we could look at the faces De Niro's making
(30:38):
and interpret it differently. But remember the scene, it's the
one where they're talking about going to Chicago and seeing
the wife and daughter. I think it starts, they're eating
dinner or De Niro's eating dinner. He's eating that chicken wing.
and it starts that whole conversation that really opens up
that dialogue about like being in denial about what the
(30:58):
right thing to do is and doing the wrong thing. Anyway,
he's eating these chicken wings, even though he knows that
they're bad for him. The way that scene opens though,
is just silently with De Niro chewing and the Duke
watching him. And we get the sense that, you know,
he's quietly judging him or at least quietly considering the damage.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
This is doing to him.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
And the face that De Niro is making is, the reaction,
everything within his body suggests to me someone who is
aware of that judgment and actually is a little bit
bothered by it. He's someone who, again, comes off as
so brusque and there's all that bravado and that sense
of control. And in that moment, it's as if he
(31:41):
knows he's being watched. He knows he's doing something quote
unquote wrong, and.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
He's a little bit ashamed of it. He would never
say that. He would never admit it. But De Niro
is lets that in.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
He allows for that to be an interpretation of the moment.
So I want to get to the pathos. And I
give Gallo, the screenwriter here, some credit in that even
if we think we know it's coming, that eventually he's
going to end up on the doorstep face-to-face with his
(32:12):
ex-wife and daughter again after that's introduced, I could see
a lesser film concocting an extremely stupid ruse to get
them there. And maybe some people watching this would say
that is what happens with the shootout in Chicago and
they get away on foot.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
But the fact that that moment comes, not because Jack
has some big change of heart or all of a
sudden feels like he has to do this and we
don't really believe that his character would do it. The
fact that the only way he ends up back on
her doorstep is because he truly has no other choice,
that he is so desperate for help that he goes
(32:52):
to the only person whose help he can ask. I
appreciated that. And then when we get there, that interaction
with Wendy Phillips is gale. Everything about their energy suggests
and sells the history that they have. And the feelings
(33:14):
that have changed dramatically... between the both of them, but
that are still there.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
And I mentioned the head.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Shake that I love so much that De Niro gives
in that comedic moment on the phone where he lets
the Duke know that he doesn't mean it. How about
the four, I think it's four head turns that we get,
those silent head turns that we get when he sees
his daughter.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Denise? You got so big.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
The way De Niro even kind of asks her her
name when he says Denise, it's a question. He just
can't believe that that's really her, that that's his daughter
who he hasn't seen in so long. And that line delivery,
you got so big. The hugs where he doesn't really
know what to do. He hugs her like three times,
you know, kind of briefly as opposed to one big hug.
(34:10):
And then her going back out into the driveway and
trying to help her dad despite the fact that they've
been estranged. I'm not going to lie, Josh, it's midnight
run and it got a little dusty twice sitting on
my couch watching this movie in those moments.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I think that's an overall well-handled scene. I can't say
it got things dusty for me. Maybe my favorite moment
in it, though, is the awkwardness that they allow and
give space for. And it's right in that sequence you're
talking about in sort of the entranceway to the house
after his wife has left. the room for a few minutes.
(34:47):
And so here's who we're left with. The Duke, Jack,
and this daughter who, as you pointed out, he's not
even entirely sure. It's been so long at first that
it is his daughter. I think is Danielle Duclos plays
the daughter, I believe. And yeah, no dialogue. There's like,
I don't know, maybe 40 seconds of De Niro just
(35:09):
kind of looking around awkwardly, wandering around a little bit,
not knowing what else they've been reintroduced at this point.
And some sort of conversation should happen, right? And it's not.
And the movie just sits there and lets us sit
in that. And that was one of those bits where
(35:30):
it's unexpected, right? I didn't, we know this scene is coming.
I think it plays out, you know, as mostly we
expected probably, but I did not expect a little moment
like that. And even Grodin is good. They're, again, patience,
not going for a laugh, You're seeing his face in
that scene, and you're also seeing how awkward he is
in that moment, maybe even thinking, I shouldn't have pushed this.
(35:53):
This was a bad idea. I was hoping this would
end in a better way. But instead, it's become really
uncomfortable for everyone. And yeah, it was brave of the
film to let us sit in that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
And here I want to go back to what you
were saying in terms of what stood out to you
about the substance, or I suppose— one of the morals
of this movie, or at least the moral discussions the
movie is having. I, as I think about, again, De
Niro's character and what's so effective in terms of rooting
(36:26):
all of this in their behavior, at the core of
this movie, it's not the gags, it's not the action,
it's not plot or anything else, it really is character.
And with character, I'm going to go to the film
spotting word of every episode, it's about the stakes.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
And there are stakes, right, in.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That there are these Time-driven stakes, what is ostensibly what
this movie is about and what Jack's motivation is.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Will he make it? Will he complete the job?
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Will he get back before the deadline Friday night at
midnight or whatever it is? It really does, though, turn
out to be, over the course of the movie, a
story about integrity.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, that's the perfect word. Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
It's integrity.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
That's what they're arguing about.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
With that comes being willing to do the right thing,
even in incredibly tough situations.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
That's maybe the definition of integrity is sticking to what
you believe in despite the challenges and the adversity. And
so with that, you've got these two men who couldn't
be more different, but actually are equal misfits in terms
of society and their professions, right? He notices that his
accounting firm is on the take. The police force is
(37:37):
on the take. They both end up on the outs
with the bad guy, the mob guy in this case,
Jimmy Serrano, really great, Dennis Farina.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Oh, so good.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
And so then the story becomes, actually, for us as viewers,
it really becomes a matter of whether or not Jack
will really be able to turn the Duke in at
the end or not. Will he really be able to
do it? And it's a legitimate question, I think, based
on what we know about that character. And part of
us even maybe wants him to, right? Like, I want
(38:09):
Jack to get the money. I want him to complete
the job. And the Duke can be kind of annoying.
I don't know how I would fare after that whole
flight scenario and getting kicked off the airplane, right? Be
hard for me to forgive him for that, Josh, no
matter what happened. But of course, we also want him
to do the right thing because that's so central to
(38:29):
his character. And so the way that's all fleshed out
are these little moments that again, I think maybe lesser
movies wouldn't give us are like the one where Jack
is formulating the plan. And yeah, that Kodo Mosley looks
at him and can tell that he's getting almost giddy
about this, which is something we haven't seen from the
(38:50):
Walsh character yet. And he says that he's getting excited
because he gets to feel like a, a cop again,
you know, all of his behavior, everything he does, those
moments of excitement, They inform our understanding of the character
and ultimately those stakes. And, you know, our friend Sam,
who has seen this movie even more times than me
(39:12):
and every time gives it five stars, he had a
nice little theory or idea too on Letterboxd where he
said that even at the end, his decision to uncuff
the Duke could be partly about that's another moment where
he gets to feel like a cop again. He gets
to not just be kind of the automaton who goes,
and does the job, but he gets to make a decision.
(39:32):
He gets to take the cuffs off of someone and
that it's really about part and parcel with his integrity
is it's really about his dignity. And the fact that
his dignity in that moment has been restored more than anything.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah, I'm so glad you landed on the word integrity
because I think that is essentially what they're quibbling over
in almost every discussion they have. It's not inflated always
as it is in that discussion at the outpost about
the plane versus the truck. That's where it maybe comes
to the foreground. But even when they're quibbling over what
he's eating, that's kind of at the root of it
(40:07):
is that question of integrity.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yeah, absolutely it is. And there's another hilarious exchange where
it's at the root of it. And- I'll mention this
in the context of another thing that I saw from
Sam on Letterboxd that I didn't see until earlier today,
not before I saw the film. In one of his
viewings a while back, Sam said, and of course he
(40:29):
did still give it five stars and adores the film,
but he said that this is the first time that
the ending ever troubled him a little bit. He said,
I don't believe Jack would take the money. He said
he's got too much integrity to use stolen money to
open a coffee shop or anything else for that matter.
And I bring that up because Josh, I was so
dialed into his integrity and these ethical and philosophical debates,
(40:53):
if you will, that actually populate this movie that it
had never occurred to me before until watching it last
night that I had a moment where I thought to myself,
I feel like Jack would give him the money back.
I feel like Jack would actually be so against using
money that came from Jimmy Serrano that he doesn't technically
have any claim to no matter what reasons he would
(41:16):
use it for, or no matter how bad the guy is, right,
that he's taking it from, ultimately in Serrano, he would
never actually use it. He would never take it. And
the movie suggests that this is kind of his redemption,
this restoration of dignity at the end. It's partly when
he gets this money as well. And for me, I
(41:37):
guess ultimately the way I came to justify it or Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
That the Duke actually is just fine with flying and,
in fact, has the ability to fly. He didn't know that.
He doesn't know it till later. The implication, the idea being, right,
that what you do, what your choices say about you
in the moment with the information you have at your disposal,
that's what really matters, not ultimately how it shakes out.
(42:31):
What matters is what you do in the moment. And
in that moment, he... has already decided to let the
Duke go. He has no expectation in that moment that
he's going to be rewarded financially for it at all.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
He's prepared to.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Walk away and never see that guy again or reap
any benefits. And in fact, he's missing out on $ 100, 000
that he has more than earned.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
This is at the end you're talking about now.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
He's at the end. He's actually losing money.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
But because he's getting rewarded for something he'd already decided
to do and had made the right decision based on that,
not motivated by the money, I think he can justify
it for himself as well.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
That's it. As you were talking, I was trying to
remember and it's been like a week since I've seen
it again. There's a caveat. There was a little detail
that takes place and that's it. That's what you described.
That's why it is.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Take it. You already let me go.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Yes. That's why it fits with this whole understanding of integrity,
why it's okay for him to take the money. That's
what it is. That's why it works for me at least. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
So lastly, just how about Midnight Run being one of
those all-time that guy movies? We've already mentioned it a
little bit with Dennis Farina showing up as Serrano, but
as Serrano and Yefet Kodo as Alonzo Mosley. I love
seeing John Ashton again, and I say again because we
did talk about him and his relationship with Axel Foley
(44:02):
and Beverly Hills Cop, the other Martin Brest film. Joe Pantoliano, again,
I didn't know this until Sam mentioned it on Twitter today,
but it's insane that there have been three movies in
a row talked about of the show, and he's been
in all of them.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Joey Pants, I think we're supposed to call him. It's
been my month of Joey Pants between Risky Business, The Fugitive,
back with Michael Phillips, and now you're in Midnight Run.
And the other thing, you know, you mentioned how, you know,
De Niro here made you think about De Niro and Heat.
How about Philip Baker Hall here?
Speaker 1 (44:37):
His name's Sidney.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
His name's Sidney. So I did a quick Google search
and couldn't mail it down, but it does seem to
be the case that In Paul Thomas Anderson's heartache, he's
supposed to be the same character.
Speaker 3 (44:49):
That's so funny that you looked it up because I
had the same thought. I'm like, could this really be
a coincidence? And maybe I just ran out of time,
but I decided not to even search for it. I
was like, of course it's a coincidence. It just has
to be, but it probably isn't.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, it probably isn't is what I'm going to say.
I gave it probably five to eight minutes, and then
I was like, I got to move on with my day.
So I don't have it definitively anywhere that PTA said anything. this.
Maybe that's out there somewhere and a listener knows. But yeah,
he's a mob advisor here. That would track, right, with
the sort of mysterious Sidney's past in hard eight. And
(45:23):
I think that's, even if it's not the case, it's
lovely that it works out that way. I heard somebody
picked up my dukes in New York. It's old news, Sidney.
I'm already on it. I don't have to tell you
what'll happen if he becomes a government witness. I can
assure you that will not be the case.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah, I assumed you were taking that position, but I'm
supposed to advise you against such acts.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Sidney, relax. Have a cream soda. Everything is going to
be all over within a few minutes.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
We hope you enjoyed that conversation from our archive about
Midnight Run from 2023. Josh, a 35th anniversary review. Once again,
we remind you that as a Film Spotting Family member,
you get access to the Film Spotting Archive. You also
get bonus shows. You get a weekly newsletter. You get
early ad-free shows and more. It's all at filmspottingfamily.com. And
(46:07):
don't forget, on Friday's flagship show, it is our top
five Needle Drops. It's a good one with Rico Galeano
from Mubi. Thanks for listening. This conversation can serve no
purpose anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Goodbye.
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