Stop Making Sense vs. The Last Waltz | Movie Death Match - Filmspotting

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
I got a game I want to play. My name
is Chris Klemek, and today my firm but fair cinematic
jurisprudence shall determine which one of a pair of thematically
linked movies, each represented by a passionate and highly credentialed advocate,
shall be preserved in perpetuity like the matted-out rock of
cocaine in Neil Young's nostril during his magnificent performance of
Helpless in the Last Waltz, It was the Henry Cavill's

(00:30):
mustache of its day.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
He was helpless, helpless, helpless.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
And which shall be consigned to oblivion, like Chris France,
Tina Weymouth, and Jerry Harrison's invitation to see their former
bandmate David Byrne's Broadway show, American Utopia. Because we're chuffed,
or at least curious, about the September 11th release of Oasis,
Don't Look Back in Anger, a documentary-slash-concert film, ratios TBD,
chronicling the 2025 stadium tour that put the long-estranged Brothers

(01:01):
Gallagher on stage together once more.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
I just don't see myself on stage with Liam. I
just don't see it. The way it finished, unacceptable.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Most thought it would never happen, and some still aren't convinced.
It's going to be chaos. We have decided to pit
two of the greatest concert films in history against one
another in a battle of the bands. Only one shall survive.
Resentment and estrangement among collaborators, trade licks with brilliant performances

(01:35):
shot and edited brilliantly. And these twin masterpieces, both from
directors more famed for features than for documentaries, and both
of whom started out making movies for schlockmeister Roger Corman,
my favorite detail. This is before they were Academy Award
winning A-listers.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Plunged into the fiery depths of the hot box, a
tropical torture chamber where anything can happen.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Oh, will you cooperate?

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Those fires have you pegged! One was the first time
a concert had been captured on 35mm film with cinematic
lighting from world-class DPs. One was a postmodern audiovisual spectacle
that would establish the template David Byrne is still using
for his live shows more than 40 years later. But
before we get into it, let's meet those passionate and

(02:18):
highly credentialed advocates representing 1978's The Last Waltz, starring the
band in a veritable Justice League of 60s and 70s
rock folk, blues, and Americana by way of Canada Legends.
and directed by Future Academy Award winner Martin Scorsese. Hailing
from Minneapolis, he is the author of the books Twilight
of the Gods, Your Favorite Band is Killing Me, and
There Was Nothing You Could Do, Bruce Springsteen's Born in

(02:40):
the USA and the End of the Heartland. He is
also the author of several books I did not review
for The Washington Post, including the forthcoming Is This It?
The Never-Ending Rise and Fall of the Strokes and Rock
and Roll. He is the co-host... of the music podcast IndieCast,
and of the Bob Dylan on Tour podcast NeverEnding Stories.
He writes the Substack Evil Speakers, the hardest working man
in showbiz journalism, and a drunkard's dream if I ever

(03:02):
did see one. He is Stephen Hyden. Welcome, Stephen.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Thank you. Wow. That was a long introduction. Sorry about
all those credits.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well, we all know the freelance life is tough, so
I want to ask you, Have you ever been offered
a gig where someone told you you won't make much money,
but you'll get more lady companionship, I'll say, than Frank Sinatra?

Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yeah, it's really interesting how you phrased that. Not exactly
how it is in The Last Waltz. No, that's never happened.
And music criticism, strangely enough, not a great way to
meet women. But fortunately, I was able to meet my
wife through other avenues. I did avoid the verbatim quote
there because this is a family podcast from the FilmSpotting

(03:43):
family of podcasts. Although I did just hear On another show,
The Movie Racket with Michael Phillips, my pal Phillips and
my friendly acquaintance Dana Stevens talking about Harry Cohn's ass
for 40 minutes. So if they can work blue, I
think I should be able to quote Robbie Robertson accurately.
Although he was quoting, it is not clear to me
in the context of The Last Waltz who he was quoting.
Was it Ronnie Hawkins? Yeah, I think it's Ronnie Hawkins

(04:05):
because I think that's right before the Ronnie Hawkins performance. Right, right.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, I am no prude. I am not given to censoriousness.
I encourage you to express yourself however you see fit.
Thank you, Stephen, for being here. Representing 1984's Stop Making Sense,
starring Talking Heads and directed by Future Academy Award winner
Jonathan Demme. Hailing from Los Angeles, California, she is the
author of two volumes of poetry, Nights I Let the
Tiger Get You and All the Emergency-Type Structures. She is

(04:31):
also a teacher and an editor with the essential online
film journal Bright Wall, Dark Room and a regular on
the Bright Wall, Dark Room podcast. She is Elizabeth Cantwell. Welcome, Elizabeth.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
Hi, I'm so excited to be here today.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Elizabeth, have you ever asked yourself, how do I work this?
Am I right? Am I wrong?

Speaker 4 (04:51):
Consistently forever.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
I know this because I read your wonderful essay for
Bright Wall Dark Room's Jonathan Demme issue about stop making
sense and existential philosophy called You Must Imagine Talking Heads Happy.
We will link to that in show notes. So in
a recent episode of Bright Wall Dark Room, you and
your Screenwriter, filmmaker, comic book writer, husband, Christopher Cantwell, dissected

(05:16):
what you called the Sam Neill film, The Hunt for
Red October, which is both just as accurate and yet
less offensive than when I teased this episode by saying
The Last Waltz comes from Mandalorian and Grogu star Martin Scorsese.
So I want to salute you on that framing. Will
you be covering the Hart-Bachner vehicle Die Hard in any
future episode?

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Listen, I love Die Hard. Forever and ever. And I
wish that we could frame it that way. But yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
I mean, I feel like framing it through the Ellis,
the corporate coke peddler character is the most appropriate to this.
This is definitely the most cocaine forward movie deathmatch to date.
You know, it doesn't seem to come up in the
Christopher Nolan filmography that much. So I think it's relevant. Stephen,
you've written quite a bit about how you make a
Thanksgiving tradition of revisiting The Last Waltz every year. Why

(06:07):
has that film loomed so large in your life?

Speaker 3 (06:09):
Well, I think it just looms large if you love
rock music. I think in a way it's become the
defining film of certainly like the first 20 years of
rock history. You know, people don't rewatch Woodstock and they
don't really rewatch Gimme Shelter. But The Last Waltz is
a film that I think Not just for me, but

(06:31):
like for a lot of people has this ritualistic quality
to it where you want to watch it every year. And,
you know, if you go to most major cities, I
feel like there's last waltz tribute concerts, like where local
musicians get together often around Thanksgiving and they will play
the songs in this movie, usually in order. So it's
really kind of taken on a life of its own

(06:54):
beyond just being a movie. I think unlike a lot
of other concert films. All right.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Elizabeth, do you recall how your relationship with Stop Making
Sense began?

Speaker 4 (07:04):
Yeah, I was trying to remember the first time I
saw it, and I think it was somewhere around 15
years ago or so. And I remember very strongly not
wanting to watch it because I did not think I
would enjoy a concert film. And I just had this
idea in my head, like, I'm not a concert film person.

(07:25):
I'm honestly not really a big concert person. Like, I
like music, but I'm not one of those people who's like, yeah,
the concert experience. So I was very resistant. And one
of my friends kept saying, yeah, but you really need
to watch this movie. And so finally, I was like, fine, whatever.
I'll just watch it. I'll turn it off whenever I
get bored. And I just found myself enraptured by the film,

(07:48):
taken in by it, couldn't stop watching it. I have
had similar experiences many times when I've turned it on,
that feeling of like, oh, I can't turn this off.
Now that it's on, I'm in it. I'm not going
to walk away. And I did see it in theaters
too when it was re-released in cinemas, which was such
a fun experience.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Any prior association or interest in the Talking Heads before
the movie or before you saw them?

Speaker 4 (08:15):
Yeah, I do love the Talking Heads and I often
cite them as one of my favorite bands. I just
really felt like wow, I'm probably not going to like
just watching one of their concerts. I can just listen
to their songs. But hopefully we can talk more today
about why the film itself is such an immersive and
rewarding experience.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yes, we are going to get into all that. So
I went to a ballgame with my dad yesterday. I
saw his beloved cubbies get clobbered by the Washington Nationals.
Sorry for my dad. But the organist at the ballpark
did a few bars of Genius of Love. I got
excited for this conversation.

Speaker 5 (08:55):
I'm in heaven with my boy.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
I mean, that hook has been sampled so many places.
Maybe the organist thought they were playing Fantasy by Mariah
Carey or something.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
Baby, I'm so into you.

Speaker 5 (09:10):
Darling, if you only knew all the things that flow
through my mind.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
But it's just a sweet, sweet fantasy.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
But I don't care. To sense the inclusion of genius
of love is one of the points of contention that
we will litigate here. I thought that was funny.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
All right.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
So we're ready to get into it. The last waltz.
Stop making sense. Both great.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
Which is greater?

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Which shall endure once the ritual of justice by verbal
combat we perform here today is complete? Those are the stakes.
This ain't no party. This ain't no disco.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
This is a.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Movie death match. Elizabeth, are you prepared?

Speaker 4 (09:45):
I believe so.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Confidence.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Steven, are you ready? As ready as I'll be. Okay.
All right.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
So we're going to move into round one. This is
opening statements and statements. the movies in their time. This
is where we focus on how these films were received
when they were new in 1978, 1984, respectively. You each
have the option, but not the obligation to deliver a
strictly timed sub 60 second opening statement. I say again,
strictly timed. Movie Deathmatch is a young show, but having

(10:17):
already released one episode longer than Stop Making Sense, we
recognize the risk of letting it swell to last Walt's dimensions,
and we're trying to run a tighter ship here. Also
brings me briefly to our new, highly flawed, but still
hopefully transparent scoring methodology. At the conclusion of each of
your responses, I will award you between zero and three points,

(10:38):
citing parts of your statement that I find especially cogent, illuminating,
or funny. My picks will still be just as variable
as when, I don't know, maybe Jonathan Demme wins the
Oscar for directing The Silence of the Lambs and Martin
Scorsese doesn't for directing Goodfellas. But, you know, unlike the Academy,
we will at least show you the numbers. So I

(11:00):
have my stopwatch ready. Elizabeth, would you like to make
an opening statement?

Speaker 4 (11:03):
Yes, I would.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
When you are ready.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
I believe Stop Making Sense is quite simply among the
most engaging and kinetic films ever made. It's one of
the best bands of all time, singing some of their
best songs of all time.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
It's raw. It's real.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
It's loud.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
It's sweat. It's meta. It's existential. It's transcendent. It benefits
from its lack of interstitial talking. Demi lets the songs
and the performances tell a story without editorial intervention, making
it a richer text in terms of its ability to
speak to diverse viewers and experiences in different ways. And
there's only one David Byrne.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Cogent, persuasive, and with 26 seconds left over. Nicely done.
Nicely done. Stephen, would you like to make an opening statement?

Speaker 4 (11:48):
Sure.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Tell me when to start the clock, sir.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
All right, go ahead. So these are both great films.
I am pledging at the top here. I'm not going
to go negative in this competition. I will not say
anything negative about Stop Making Sense. I think it's a
great film, one of the greatest concert films clearly of
all time. No one would argue against that. But if
we're going to make a case for ultimate greatness... Last
Waltz versus Stop Making Sense, I would just say Last

(12:11):
Waltz ultimately is the broader, more larger-than-life, and more iconic film.
If I was going to put it in one sentence,
I would say Stop Making Sense is a film about
a Talking Heads concert, and The Last Waltz is a
film about rock and roll. Not only do you have
the band in this film, you have some of the
most famous and greatest actors. Rock stars of all time

(12:33):
coming together really for this one concert. Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell,
Neil Young, Van Morrison, Muddy Waters, Eric Clapton. Neil Diamond
shows up at one point. Why not? He has a
great suit. The Last Waltz is a film that is
great in a way where even the 5 second B
parts become great. And I will prove this in my argument.

(12:55):
All right. Time. Thank you. You really ought to show
us the clock.

Speaker 6 (12:58):
I know. I know.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
If I can fill out the comment card for future episodes. Yes.
You need to show the contestants the clock so we
can space this out.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Just drop that comment card in the mail. Yes.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Because we're in the dark here for people at home.
She could have gone on longer. I could have cut
it shorter. No, I know. It's just hard to know.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
I just want to assure you both that the scoring
here is just as credible and reliable as it is
in boxing. You know, we're mixing the courtroom and fight metaphors.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
I got to say one thing too, because I've already
noticed like a pretty strong stop making sense bias here.
Because you made a crack earlier about it swelling to
last Walt's size. I don't think that the running times
are that different in these films.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Well, I certainly don't think the last Walt's is bloated,
but it is about 30 minutes longer than... If you
watch the theatrical version of, you know, as seen in 1984,
I think it's like 89 minutes. I think it's half
an hour short.

Speaker 4 (13:49):
I think it's 88, 89.

Speaker 6 (13:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
All right. Well, I stand corrected. I just felt like
you were tipping your hand a little early with some
of the crap. I just want to make sure.

Speaker 4 (13:57):
I just want to be upfront, Steve, and say I'm
happy to win or lose, which feels like the talking
heads perspective. Like, it's not about winning here. I am.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
It's not about winning, but if we are going to
have a competition, I just want to make it clear
that Chris hasn't already made up his mind because he
can't make it to comments here. He's not listening to
the arguments. So, you know, do I even have a
shot here, Chris, is what I'm asking you. You have
an uphill battle. Okay, so we're admitting it. Okay, so
the bias is real.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
And I will acknowledge that, like, I certainly have more awareness, knowledge,
history with talking heads outside of Stop Making Sense than
I do of the band outside of The Last Waltz.
Though if we expand that to include the many other
artists seen in The Last Waltz, then arguably that advantage
goes away.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
It's just good to know what I'm up against. Certainly.
And you've acknowledged your bias ahead of time.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
That's right. You are seeing the clock metaphorically. I got
to work as hard as Van Morrison. That's right.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Start limbering up those hamstrings. I can do it. I
can do it.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
Although after you put it, yeah. So I give the
listeners some peek behind the curtain here, just like they
do in Stop Making Sense, right? Where we see them
wheeling out all the gear and everything through the first
few numbers of the show. Yeah, I did send a
preliminary list of questions to both our guests a couple
of days before this recording. And Stephen immediately noticed what
his just expressed potential pro stop making sense bias there,

(15:22):
which I took to mean that it's like because I
had like sort of a snarky crack about Robbie Robertson.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
And one of those things. There were a couple snarky
cracks and it was like, stop making sense, this wondrous film.
And then last waltz, this ponderous film. That's what I
felt like the tone was in the outline.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
I realized later that I was almost like bordering on plagiarism.
I was basically paraphrasing this passage from Twilight of the
Gods by one Stephen Hyden when I wrote that about
Robbie Robertson.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
I was a little hard on him in that book.
I interviewed Robbie after I wrote that and it made
me feel differently about some of that stuff. But Maybe
we can get to that because we break this down.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Full transparency. This is all good, meaningful, and relevant. For
the benefit of the listeners who do not revisit these
movies annually, I will set them up. The Last Waltz
was conceived, announced, and designed as a public retirement party
for the band. As Levon Helm himself, Stephen Hyden, and
many others have written, it later emerged that Levon Helm,
possibly other band members, really did not want to retire

(16:27):
and kind of resented Robbie Robertson's Decision by Fiat. This
is it. The band is done. But that was the
environment into which The Last Waltz was made and released.
Stop Making Sense had a narrower brief. This is just
the result of Jonathan Demme and producer Gary Getzman having
caught the talking heads on the 1983 Speaking in Tongues tour.
They decide they want to turn this into a movie.

(16:48):
They're shooting that movie less than four months later. This
all happens now. Very, very quickly, that tour did turn
out to be Talking Heads last, presaging an eventual Robertson v.
Helm-style split between David Byrne and his bandmates. They learned
that the Talking Heads had dissolved in 1991 when they
read about it in the Los Angeles Times. Byrne would
eventually sue them for touring as the Heads without him,

(17:12):
and the band did eventually reform minus Robertson and tour
at least for a little while, though, of course, their
tragic deaths began to winnow away the memberships. That was
all years away in 1984. Back then, Stop Making Sense
just looked like a thrilling document of a great and
improbably successful art rock band. So I will start by

(17:33):
throwing the first question to Stephen here. Because Stop Making Sense,
quote unquote, just documents a concert tour that had already
been creatively worked out before Jonathan Demme got involved. Whereas
The Last Waltz was, you know, designed, curated as a movie.
Does that more aggressive curation make The Last Waltz a

(17:56):
more thoughtful film? What do you mean by thoughtful? More cinematic,
more naturally a product of the cinema versus of the stage,
you know, more of something created to exist in perpetuity than,
you know, something ephemeral like a concert.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
I mean, I don't think it makes it more theatrical
because the Talking Heads show was already pretty theatrical. The
way that that show builds as it goes along, very ingeniously.
Here I am saying nice things about that making sense.
If that was built into the show. So, I mean,
and that obviously works great in the film. I think
what is unique about The Last Waltz, because it was
conceived as a film, is that you have all these

(18:31):
people in the same place at the same time and
that you have them at this moment in their career.
The film came out in 78, but this was filmed
in 1976. So you've got Bob Dylan coming off of
like Rolling Thunder era. You know, he's got his full
on like. Curly hair in the beard, the floppy hat.

(19:04):
You've got Neil Young really in the middle of his
great period. You've got Joni Mitchell in the middle of
her great creative period. You've got Van Morrison... And I
saw you make a snarky comment about the purple suit
in your outline, which I'm like, you heathen, like you
don't love the purple suit. You're cringing at the purple suit. Like,
what are we talking about here? Van looks spectacular.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Van did it first, but Prince did it better. What
can I say?

Speaker 3 (19:30):
So he's the only one that can wear purple? Like,
what's the argument here? Yeah. Okay. No one wear purple
now because Prince wore purple. It makes no sense. I mean,
muddy waters captured on film. Now when I was a
young boy At the age of five film ever.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
I would say it's.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
The greatest cast. characters, even more than a Woodstock. And
it truly was a once in a lifetime assemblage of

(20:17):
all these people coming together at once, collaborating, even if
the band wasn't quite at the height of their powers.
I think a lot of these other people were. And
I think that snapshot of a period of time in
music just takes The Last Waltz to another level where
The equivalent for Stop Making Sense is if Talking Heads

(20:38):
were joined by a half dozen other great bands of
that period. And you had them all together in this film.
It would have, I think, the kind of scope that
The Last Waltz has. Clearly, you watch Stop Making Sense.
It's great on its own. You don't watch that film
and feel like, oh, there needs to be more people here.

(20:58):
But if we're going to compare these two films... The
Last Waltz just has a greater scope. It encompasses more music.
And I think that is the thing for me I
would lean on in terms of making the case for
its greatness.

Speaker 6 (21:11):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
So applying the same unreasonableness with which I have apparently
declared that only Prince can wear purple. I'm going to
award you the full three points for that answer, but
deduct one because you described it as once in a
lifetime because only talking heads can say that in my
unreasonable worldview. So two points for Stephen.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Well said, sir. It's a real fascist show here, apparently.
We are like, no, you can wear purple. You can
say once in a lifetime. All right.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Wow. There are no appeals.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
This is a repressive regime we're living under.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
This despot that I am, I am going to invert
the question as I direct it towards Elizabeth. Does the
less fussy documentation of Stop Making Sense make it a
more pure film than The Last Waltz?

Speaker 4 (22:03):
I mean, first of all, I do just want to say,
at a certain point, comparing the two films is, it
feels like they're two separate types of things, right? They
are attempting two different things. They are doing two different things.
That said, I would argue that Stop Making Sense is
not simply just a pure, more distilled, less curated, in

(22:28):
your words film, film because it's not just, oh yeah,
I stood with a camera in the back of an
auditorium and filmed the concert, right? Demi is actually taking
different pieces from, I believe, four different performances that are
stitched together in different ways. So actually, I think it's
a pretty impressive work of curation to make it feel

(22:51):
like one continuous performance when it's actually pieces of different performances.
And I think it's, I would argue, harder to to
create the immersive experience of feeling like you are in
a room for a singular concert than it is to
throw in different pieces of here's this interview with this person.

(23:11):
Here's this shot of this person. You know, we've got
this nice setup here framed with these band members talking.
I think Martin Scorsese's job was actually a little easier.
than Jonathan Demme's if I want to be a little
targeted about it. But I do think that even preserving
the chronology of the setlist is itself a type of curation,

(23:32):
is a specific choice about how to convey this material
to the audience. And I think that it allows for
that constraint of making it feel like a singular concert
allows for more play when it comes to camera angles.
You know, where are we? Are we on the stage
with the performers? Are we in the audience? Are we,

(23:54):
as we do at the very end, looking at the audience?

Speaker 1 (23:57):
I'm still waiting.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
I'm still waiting.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
I'm still waiting.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
Are we scanning? Are we in one of those sort
of vertiginous moments where the camera drops and you're not
really sure where you are, which increases that sort of
immersive feeling? So yeah, I think it's pure, but I
also think it is deceptively simple. I think it's actually
a very complex work of filmmaking.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
All right. Can I respond to that? Are we allowed
to respond to each other?

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Please.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Okay. I would just say I agree with what she
said 100% about the curation part of it. I think
Stop Making Sense is actually a It feels like one
of the most controlled concert films in a lot of
ways where you really feel Jonathan Demme's presence as a
director and how he is guiding you as a viewer
to looking at each member of the band and experiencing

(24:47):
it in real time in a way that you could
never really experience it as a concert goer. I do disagree, however,
that it's easier for Scorsese to do The Last Waltz.
I actually think it's easier to shoot four concerts and assemble...
the best parts of each concert in the final edit
and make that feel like a concert film than it
is to shoot a movie where you only have one shot.

(25:09):
It's only going to be this event and you've got
to get everything on film. There's a famous story about
how they were shooting Muddy Waters and they almost ran
out of film when he was doing his performance because
it's a chaotic situation. You're at Winterland. It's Thanksgiving. Everyone's
on cocaine. Everyone is drinking whiskey since like five o'clock

(25:29):
in the morning. And they almost didn't get this great
performance because just in the chaos of shooting the concert.
So I think that just the act of setting up
this concert was part of the filmmaking of The Last Waltz.
And to stage this event and to be able to
document it with as much elegance and as much grandeur

(25:50):
as The Last Waltz has, I would argue that that's
more difficult than shooting four concerts and assembling the best
cuts of each performance.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
For one film. I think I was somehow aware of
The Last Waltz before a long time, but like for
many years before I ever read that the evening included
that full Thanksgiving dinner. Whenever I hear Scorsese and Robertson
talk about the complexity of the shoot, I'm like, well,
introducing a whole food services element to it probably doesn't help.
You could let them go get dinner somewhere else.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah, they had the food services. Robbie Robertson also did
this thing where he had a guitar dipped in gold
and So he's playing this literal gold guitar on stage,
which is why he's sweating almost immediately because it's a
super heavy guitar. I don't know. Again, there's a lot
of drugs involved in these decisions, I'm sure. But deciding

(26:42):
to play a heavy gold-plated guitar on film, maybe not
the best decision, but it looks amazing on camera. So, agreed.
All right.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
So I have three points for Elizabeth there and a
warning for Stephen for kindness and reasonableness. Your totally empathetic
and decent and generous acknowledgement of your opponent's argument there
is going to cost you dearly if it happens again.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
Is only Prince allowed to be kind and make it
almost another point? Oh, come on.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
We can come up with some examples of Prince.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
Being kind of mean, too. You know, I'm on the
lookout for the deducting one point thing I think is
pretty ticky-tack, but, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
Truly, truly. All right, Stephen, unreasonable question. I'm going to
ask you to pick a single standout musical performance for
The Last Waltz, if you can only have one.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
Man, well, yeah, I mean, that's really, really hard to
do because there's so many great performances in the film.
Can I list all the ones I'm not going to mention?

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Oh, see, that would be devious. I encourage you.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
You know, because I could say, baby, don't you do
it at the beginning of a film. I could say Caravan,
which you've already referenced by Van Morrison. Ronnie Hawkins doing
Who Do You Love? I walked 47 miles above black.
Used a cold mistake for a necktie.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
I turned 41 and I don't mind dying. That, oh boy.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
I got a tombstone hand and a graveyard mind. I
turned 41, I don't mind dying. Who do you love?

Speaker 4 (28:02):
Who do you love?

Speaker 3 (28:06):
Big time, Bill, big time. Yeah. Which MJ Lenderman quoted
on his record. I'm going to go with It Makes
No Difference, which I think is a beautiful song. Wonderfully
sung by Rick Danko. And it makes no difference where
I turn.

Speaker 6 (28:28):
I can't get over you when the flame.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
Still burns Really the definitive version of that song, no
one really remembers the studio version, which came out on
Northern Lights Southern Cross the year before the film was shot.
And it became a rock standard because of the film.

(28:59):
This film's a little unusual in comparison to Stop Making
Sense in that this wasn't really the band at their peak.
However you want to look at it, it's either at
the end of their career as a touring band or
it's at the end of the Robbie Robertson era of
the band. But There's so many things that became definitive
with the band because of the movie, because it's so famous.

(29:19):
Starting with, I think, It Makes No Difference. I think
just the way it's shot, too, really speaks, again, to
the craft involved in this film. Just the camera movements
and how incredible it looks. There's this great shot toward
the end of the song where Robbie Robertson's playing his
guitar solo, and you're on the side of the stage,
and then Garth Hudson starts playing a saxophone solo. And

(29:52):
he just appears like in the foreground of the frame.
He just kind of steps forward. And it's so dramatic.
And it's actually the first thing I thought of when
Garth Hudson passed away recently. It's like one of the
great film entrances, not just in a concert film, but

(30:13):
I think in any film. And then you see Garth
and Robbie in profile playing together at the end of
the song. And you can see Levon playing drums in
the back. Beautifully shot, beautiful song. That feels like one
of the moments that people single out when they talk
about how much they love this movie. All right.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
It makes no difference is the answer. Full three points
because and, you know, extra credit for trying to cheat
a few other titles in there. Again, it's a dirty
damn game and you are you are playing the dirty
damn game dirtily. So well, well done. Elizabeth, standout individual
performance from Stop Making Sense.

Speaker 4 (30:48):
I mean, I tried really hard to think of a
creative answer to this question because I felt like maybe
I would get points for creativity. It's tough with Stop
Making Sense because it's David Byrne's film, really. Again, I
could come up with, like, there are moments where, like,
in Burning Down the House, I think Alex Weir really shines.

(31:08):
I think there's some great moments with Lynn Mabry and
Edna Holt and just their dynamic energy on stage. But
I would be incorrect if I said anyone but David Byrne.
And if I'm trying to pick a specific David Byrne character, moment. Again,
it's boring, so I'm willing to lose points for boringness,

(31:30):
but I really do think that the opening Psycho Killer
is just such an indelible way to open the film.
It takes you off guard so quickly. It immediately tells
you this is not going to be what you expect.
Putting down the little boom box and saying, Hi, I
got a tape I want to play. And that great

(31:54):
moment where he gets really off kilter and is kind
of like skipping around and you're like, is this man
having a seizure? Is he falling down? Like, is he okay?
And then it is almost like the moment in Charlie
and the Chocolate Factory where Gene Wilder comes out with
the cane and then somersaults and you're like, oh, it's
a performance, right? Like, I feel like this is that
coming out of the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory Willy

(32:16):
Wonka Gates moment for David Byrne.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
¶ ¶ ¶ ¶ And so nervous.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
Can't relax.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
And it is so, so weird and also so intimate.
And so I think that, for me, that the intimacy
that you get in that opening kind of takes you
into this very intimate film.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Psycho killer, guess you said. Far, far, far, far, far better.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
Run, run. So, again, I think it's a boring answer.
I'm acknowledging it's not very innovative, but I also can't
not say that it is the right answer.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
I don't think that is a boring answer, actually, because
I think there are more obvious things you could say.
I think a lot of people would probably pick like
one of the big flashy answers. band numbers or where
he's wearing the big suit or something.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
The big suit.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
But I think the big suit comes in, in a
separate way in my mind.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:22):
I love that pick. Cause I, I think again, I'm
going to say nice things about set making sense, but
I love the way it builds.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
You've been warned.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
I love how it starts with David Byrne and then
they keep adding members and adding stage equipment and everything.
To me, that's like the most brilliant stroke of it.
And just start with David Byrne.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
At the beginning.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
All right. Yes.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Well, I'm going to award Elizabeth a full three points
for having the courage to offer a cold take, you know,
instead of just trying to choose chaos. Moving on. The self-canonization,
the all-star guests in The Last Waltz. We've named most
or all of them already. The staple singers, Emmylou Harris,
Muddy Waters, Joni Mitchell, Neil Diamond, and a safe and
effective vaccine's worst nightmare, the twofer of Eric Clapton and

(34:08):
Van Morrison.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Hey, don't put Van in there. Van is not a
vaccine guy.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
Didn't they collaborate on an anti-vax single? No, Van didn't
like the shutdowns. Clapton is an anti-vaxxer. Van is not
an anti-vaxxer. I'm not defending him being against shutdowns, but
just to be clear, because Van has been painted with

(34:36):
that brush. Just for the sake of accuracy. He's not
an anti-vaxxer, though.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
Just to be clear.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
You were going to tell me that Van Morrison is
as much a karate expert as Dirk Diggler is.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
Next, aren't you? Well, no. Van is a crank, and
he's the grumpiest man in rock. And he just doesn't
want to be told what to do. Every album he's
ever made, there's one song where he's accusing people of
ripping him off. There's a song about childhood. There's a
song about God and there's a song about people ripping
off Van Morrison.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
That is the Holy Triumvirate. Making love in the green
grass while someone lifted my wallet.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yeah, or like stealing my ideas usually. You know, that's
the big thing. Like he has a song called Jealousy
and Professional Jealousy. Those are two different songs from Van Morrison.
He had a song called Jealousy and he's like, no,
I need to be more specific. I'm going to have
a song called Professional Jealousy. So he's a grumpy guy
in a lot of ways, but I got to, pushback

(35:30):
against the anti-vaxxer thing so anyway i'm sorry sorry to
interrupt i'm.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Keeping the line anyway all right well it's inaccurate though
you you have already said uh i i think wisely
correctly that stop making sense is about a band and
last waltz is about rock and roll you know broader
genre broader tradition but is the last waltz is it
watered down a little bit by the presence of these
guests by the the interviews shot at shangri-la some months

(35:55):
later do you have any sympathy for people who see
these elements as equivocating, not just giving us the pure
band in isolation.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Well, okay. So I think what you're setting up here
is you're going to make a case that Les Walt
is overstuffed and Stop Making Sense is the more austere film.
Like you'll probably ask Elizabeth, is it too austere? And
she can answer that when you ask her that. But
like for me, is it overstuffed? Yes, it is. But
I think like anything that, becomes iconic, the overstuffedness of

(36:27):
it becomes part of the attributes of the experience. The
fact that Neil Diamond is here. Like, why is Neil
Diamond here? Well, Neil Diamond is here because Robbie Robinson
produced an album called Beautiful Noise that came out in
1976 that nobody remembers. But it was relevant in 1976.

(36:47):
So you get Neil Diamond showing up playing this song
called Dry Your Eyes. which is from said album. No
one remembers that song, but it's immortal because it's in
The Last Waltz. Yeah, I mean, I think some of
those more bloated aspects of The Last Waltz, I wouldn't
take it out. I don't think that The Last Waltz
would be a better film if it were 90 minutes long.
I think part of the greatness of it is the

(37:08):
indulgence of it. In the same way that Stop Making Sense,
if it were longer, it wouldn't be better. It's perfect
as it is. It is an austere, lean, propulsive film. Like,
you never get a chance to really catch your breath.
And If you added 20 minutes to it, it would
make the film worse. And I think if you took
Neil Diamond out of The Last Waltz, I think it
would make it worse. Do the interviews need to be there?

Speaker 6 (37:31):
Let me ask you now, now that The Last Waltz
is over, what are you doing now?

Speaker 3 (37:37):
I mean, then we don't have Rick Danko sitting in
a dark studio listening to Sip the Wine and having
this existential sort of ennui drift over him. This little
moment in the film, which is so great. You know,

(38:00):
Levon Helm talking about the midnight rambles that he went
to when he was a kid.

Speaker 6 (38:05):
The master of ceremonies would come out, you know, just
before the finale and explain that after the finale, after
the kids go home, they'd have the midnight ramble, right?
The midnight ramble. And the songs would get a little
bit juicier and the jokes would get a little funnier.
And the prettiest dancer would really get down and shake

(38:27):
it a few times.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
It's great. You know, Richard Manuel, who looks gacked out
of his mind. Him kind of talking about shoplifting salamis,
you know, like when they were poor. All that stuff
is great. I wouldn't want any of it to go anywhere. So,
you know, it's like talking about an album, a great album.
Would it be better if you cut this song out? Well,
it's a classic album. Like, you need Revolution No. 9

(38:50):
in the White Album. It's part of the White Album. Yeah.
And yeah, maybe it would be a more consistent listen
if you took that out, but it wouldn't be the
same thing. So I think that shagginess of The Last
Waltz is actually part of the classic rockness of it, really.
So I like the sprawl, if we want to call
it a sprawl, or a bloat of The Last Waltz.
All right.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
This is consistent. I know you are generally like pro
excess in just having read your criticism for many years.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
So yes, I go on too long, too, in my writing. So,
you know, I'm not propulsive either or austere.

Speaker 2 (39:23):
So, you know, I think you are a magnificent, cogent,
insightful critic in all sincerity.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
All right.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
So now I'm going to pivot to Elizabeth and invite
you to make the case that Talking Heads perform Take
Me to the River better than the band performs Don't
Do It. Going to the well of R & B, soul, classics.
Can you make this case?

Speaker 4 (39:45):
Well, I just wanted to say, I mean, Stephen's response
about like thinking about it as an album and, you know,
the bloat. It was making me put on my teacher
hat and think about when I teach books, there's like
two types of books that I love to teach. And
one is the gigantic, epic, novel right I love teaching
war and peace I love war and peace there's a

(40:07):
lot of stuff in war and peace that doesn't need
to be in war and peace but if you took
it out it wouldn't be war and peace right and
I love that same with like infinite jest like this
giant sprawling footnoted thing and that is its own entity
that kind of like allows for all these different entry points.
And it's beautiful. But I also love The Great Gatsby.

(40:29):
And I love The Haunting of Hill House, which are
these slim little volumes where every sentence matters, right? Where
every line is there for a clear reason. But that's
doing a different thing than the big book. So Yeah,
if we're going with I love big books and I
cannot lie, it's The Last Waltz. But I think Stop
Making Sense is like a beautiful little, almost maybe a

(40:51):
little poem. But yeah, okay. So, I mean, I'm going
to argue for Take Me to the River because I
do think Take Me to the River, the performance even
specifically in Stop Making Sense is so, it's so embodied.
Like it feels, and I know it's different from the

(41:12):
original version and it's David Byrne doing his take on
this song, but it does feel like you're at some
kind of insane baptism. where you've got these shining, bright

(41:33):
neon blue lights at the sides of the stage. He's
like slicked with sweat at that point in the show.
And so it's like dripping off of him like this baptism.
And I think he's very sexy in this number two,
which we can talk about later if we want to.
And then he gets out the beach ball. That's at

(41:55):
the end of Take Me to the River, right? The
beach ball. And you're like, we're at the end of
the movie. What's happening? But I mean, obviously, they're both
great performances.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
I lost, but I have no choice but to award
you full points for that answer. If only for, I
like big books and I cannot lie, Elizabeth. I, you know,
so full.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Did I get points for mine? I don't, I don't
remember getting points for mine.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Which one was yours? What was your Bon Mo?

Speaker 3 (42:22):
You asked me about the bloat versus.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah. Three points for access.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
Okay. I would just say, I think that Elizabeth is
probably right. The case I would make for don't do
it in the last Waltz is just where it is
in the film. that you see the band playing it
over the opening credits. And it just sets up the
fact that these are five of the coolest looking, grizzled,
bearded people that have ever appeared on film. And I

(42:50):
love that it's the last song of the concert, but
they put it at the beginning. So it's a bit
of a flash forward in the film. So I just think,
I don't know if the performance is better, but I
love how it's used in the film. That would be
my case for Don't Do It.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Okay. One thing I didn't realize was how recent a
song Take Me to the River was when Talking Heads
started performing, because it showed up in their set in
the 70s, right? And I mean, I thought that was
an older song, but I think 74 is when the
Al Green version comes out. So, like, I sort of
thought it was already a classic at that time, and
maybe it was, but I don't know, both.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
I mean, I think the Talking Heads version became more
famous than the Al Green version, like pretty quick.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, I would agree. All right. Well, in the spirit
of excess and bloat, before we wrap up the Movies
in Their Time segment, I want to call out one
specific extra from the Criterion edition of The Last Waltz
that I was just earlier today delighted to discover. This
is an April 1978 excerpt from the CBC chat show

(43:48):
90 Minutes Live, where Scorsese and Robertson come on on
their initial press tour for The Last Waltz. And the
first guest on that episode, who moves down the couch
as they show up, is my old boss, Ricky Jay.
27 years before he hired me to be his assistant,
back when he was not much older than I was
when I started working for him. His hair is down

(44:09):
to his butt. He's wearing this beautiful periwinkle blue suit
with large lapels. Doesn't say a word. He's just standing
there listening to Martin Scorsese and, as the host calls him,
Rodney Robertson talk about The Last Waltz at one time.
buy some time for the scoring panel in my brain
as they crunch the data so I can say that

(44:31):
as we come to the end of round one, I
have Elizabeth in the lead, nine to eight. But it's close.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
It's close.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yes. Plenty of time, Stephen, even in this, you know,
arbitrary fascist regime for you to turn things around.

Speaker 4 (44:46):
Watch out You might get what you're after Ooh, baby.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Round two. The movies in our time, we will consider
what these films have come to represent in the more
than four decades since they were new. So to give
a little context here for where each of these directors
were in their career at the time of these films,
Scorsese shoots the Thanksgiving 76 concert that makes up the
bulk of The Last Waltz. Right after he finished his shooting,
but is far from done editing New York, New York,

(45:29):
Taxi Driver had come out early in that year. So
as messed up as he seemed to be personally, as
he was later described himself in that period, Creatively, he
was riding high. And this fast friendship with Robertson, this
is the beginning of a collaboration that will certainly last
the rest of Robertson's life. But I want to point
out that just in the... Actually, I think you already

(45:49):
said this, Stephen. I mean, in the 17-month interval between
when most of The Last Waltz was shot and when
it was released in April 78, punk happens, Star Wars happens,
all these seismic pop cultural events come out. And that,
for me, kind of reinforces... The sense that this is
a document of the past, you know, a sort of
a farewell to an entire tradition and musical idiom in

(46:13):
the same way that to me, 40 years later, Stop
Making Sense still kind of feels like the future. And
we also know Jonathan Demme has said he's coming off
of making Swing Shift, this movie that he had a
miserable time making. He said he briefly thought about giving
up filmmaking altogether. And making Stop Making Sense so quickly
and in such close collaboration with David Byrne renews him.

(46:35):
David Byrne writes a song for his next feature, Something Wild.
So just to use Jonathan Demme's own words, he's down
and out after Swing Shift. So in the universe where
he doesn't make Stop Making Sense, maybe we don't get
The Silence of the Lambs. We don't get Philadelphia, Rachel
Getting Married, you know, all these great Demme movies. Is
this a critical entry in the Demme oeuvre in your mind, Elizabeth?

Speaker 4 (46:59):
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're looking at the filmography,
it is at a hinge point, right, for him in
terms of you can see him doing some interesting stuff
up until 1984. And then I think post Stop Making Sense,
it really does feel like his style opens up and
becomes what it ultimately will be known as. I mean,

(47:20):
I was thinking about this when we put together the
Jonathan Demme issue of Bright Wall, Dark Room that you
mentioned earlier. He's such a difficult director to pin down
in terms of style because he really does do so
many types of things. He has huge range. But anything
that you're looking at that's going to talk about sort
of what is the iconic Jonathan Demme turn is going

(47:42):
to mention his use of close-ups, his use of the close-up.
And that's where I'll return to that idea that the intimacy...
of this film through these sort of close shots of
David Byrne, I think really does segue into the intimacy
you see with close shots of, say, Clarice from Silence

(48:03):
of the Lambs, right? And you also see her as
an outsider, the way you see David Byrne as an outsider, right?
To hop onto what Stephen was saying about David Byrne's
sort of awkward... I don't know if awkward's the right word, persona, right?
His sort of strange, compartmentalized persona feels very of a

(48:24):
piece with the types of characters that Jonathan Demme would
go on to focus on in his fictional films as well.
These people who are sort of a little bit offbeat,
a little bit not fitting into their circumstances. And so
I think you could. I mean, obviously, I think I'm
not going to pretend like if he hadn't made Stop
Making Sense, he couldn't have made these other films. I

(48:45):
think Jonathan Demme was a genius and probably would have
gotten to those films no matter what. But I do
think you can make the argument for Stop Making Sense
as this sort of hinge point in his filmography where
you see him kind of tap into like, oh, this
is this is working for me in a really interesting way.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Stephen, we already know, once again, the deck and circumstance
and this arbitrary fascist regime is stacked against you. But,
you know, Martin Scorsese was like he was in the
middle of editing New York, New York, to the point
that Irwin Winkler, that film's producer, was furious when he
found out that Scorsese had flown off to San Francisco
to work on this other movie while he was supposed
to be doing New York, New York. So it's tougher,

(49:24):
I think, to argue for The Last Waltz as being
an essential piece of the Scorsese mosaic. But if you're willing,
make that case.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
Yeah, it's ironic that he was in the middle of
editing this musical that ended up being a bit of
a boondoggle. I mean, there's people that defend New York,
New York, but it's definitely a difficult film. But he
ended up making a musical of sorts that ended up
being much more successful, I think, ultimately, than New York,
New York. I mean, I would make a case for
The Last Waltz. I think the case for Scorsese makes

(49:54):
it difficult. He just has so many great movies. So
if you're going to make like a top 10 movie,
Scorsese films, like is Last Waltz in there? Where do
you put Last Waltz after Taxi Driver, Goodfellas, Raging Bull,
Mean Streets, The Departed, Killers of the Flower Moon, on
and on and on. The case I would make for
The Last Waltz for being a great Scorsese film, I

(50:15):
think similar to Demi with Stop Making Sense, is that
these are two of the great music film directors. Directors
that know how to use music in a film really effectively,
where Usually we're talking about needle drops with their films.
But I mean, certainly with Demi, for instance, the way
that he will interpolate musical performances into films that aren't

(50:37):
really musical films, you know, the feelies being at something wild.
Or what's that film where Meryl Streep plays the singer?

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Oh, Ricky and the Flash.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
There you go. Ricky and the Flash. It's like good
musical sequences even in that film. Scorsese is one of
the great users of rock music in cinema history. And
I think The Last Waltz is an important part of
I would also say that it kind of depends on
how you look at this. If you look at it
purely from like a cinephile perspective, the case for The

(51:06):
Last Waltz is harder in terms of it being an
essential Scorsese film. But from a musical perspective, I don't
think there's any question that this film has a life
beyond its release that is very large.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
And it has an.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
Outsized cultural footprint that I think can rival a lot
of the great Scorsese. films i mean i would just
say if you look at any americana artist right now
they dress like the people in this film and that's
true in 2026 like the the stock costume for a
certain kind of artist comes from this film and it

(51:45):
has a contemporary relevance for that reason so in that
respect i would definitely make the case for it being
one of his essential films.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
An essential uh Yeah, something I had never really noticed
before is in the soundstage numbers in The Last Waltz,
which are what, The Wait, The Overture for The Last Waltz,
and what's the, Evangeline, is that the other one?

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Evangeline, yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
At the end of one of them, I can't remember,
it might be The Wait, since that's clearly, you know,
like the showpiece song. And, you know, Scorsese has talked
about it as, you know, in his mind being like
the quintessential band song that he needed to capture everything.
For all time, you know, and at the end of that,
that soundstage performance, the camera holds on the crew kind
of coming in and, you know, there's just kind of like, well,
was that a, you know, peek behind the curtain type thing?

(52:27):
That is not at all different from, again, that idiom
of the speaking in tongue stage show where the gear
is being rolled out, you know, and they're building the
show even as it's being performed. And I, you know,
I wondered if that way, that's not something I've ever
heard Demi talk about, but I mean, I wondered if
that maybe planted the seed or, Or I guess the
question would be for David Byrne since it was, you know, again,
as we've said, already the speaking in tongues show as

(52:48):
it already existed when Jonathan Demme saw it.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
Well, both of these films, I think, are unique for
concert films in that they largely don't show the audience. Yeah.
You know, The Last Waltz actually does show the audience
at the beginning, like standing outside Winterland.

Speaker 6 (53:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
But once you get into the concert, you don't see
the audience at all. Unlike a film like Woodstock where
you're in the audience like forever. It feels like you're
just talking to these people forever. Yeah. Or Gimme Shelter,
where the environment is a big part of the movie.
But Stop Making Sense is even more focused on the band.
I think you see people dancing at the end a

(53:23):
little bit.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
Yeah, well, that's where the plushy unicorn shows up.

Speaker 3 (53:26):
Yeah, the plushy unicorn. The child with.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
The plushy unicorn, yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
But it's a big part of what makes these films,
I think, so immersive that you do feel like you're
in the audience because you... you don't see the audience.
Like you are in the audience and you're just watching them.

Speaker 4 (53:39):
I fully agree. I think it's the trick is if
you see the audience, then you automatically feel distanced from
the audience and the experience. And if you don't see
the audience, you are the audience.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
A hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
Totally. Yeah. It's a difference between like watching a documentation
of a concert and like being at a concert where
I think it feels more like a regular documentary. If
you see all the behind the scenes stuff and everything
that goes on around the show, but, I mean, definitely
with Stop Making Sense, like, you feel like you're seeing
the talking. I mean, I remember seeing, I saw that re-release, too,

(54:12):
where it was on, it was an IMAX.

Speaker 4 (54:14):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
And it was incredible. I mean, it is the greatest concert, really,
that you're going to see. And now I'm saying nice
things about Stop Making Sense again.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
I've never seen it.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Well, I will agree with you, Stephen, that Martin Scorsese,
I think, is better at using music in his films
than Demi. I think Scorsese is so good at using
music in his films, so.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
That's a point you get.

Speaker 3 (54:34):
Demi's really good, though, too.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
This is the, yeah, my one note on One Battle
After Another last year is, like, the very end when
American Girl comes in, you know, and I was like, wait,
doesn't Jonathan Demi own that song? I mean, even though
American Girl was already, what, at least a decade old
when it was in Silence of the Lambs?

Speaker 3 (54:48):
And it's such a weird thing, too, to think of
a needle drop in Silence of the Lambs because, you know,
it's this procedural film. You don't think of it having, like,
a needle drop, especially that kind of needle drop where
you're with that character in a car and she's singing
along to the song but it's so great it's such
a great way to humanize her in like 30 seconds

(55:11):
you know and oh she's singing along to american girl
i relate to her like you're with her immediately like
she's a human being and so it's not just like
oh this is a cool song to put in a
movie it's using it in a brilliant character building way Again,
I'm saying nice things about your person, but it's true.
He's great. He's great. Okay.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
So I'm giving Elizabeth two points there and Stephen three,
despite his patently illegal compliments and concessions and general empathy
for his opponent, just because it was the more lopsided question.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
All right.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
I'm going to pivot back to Elizabeth here. I think you,
not just from watching the films, but from learning more
about how they were made and the nature of the
conception and the editing process, it seems to me Jonathan
Demme has a crush on David Byrne. Martin Scorsese has
a crush on Robbie Robertson. I think the Robertson-Scorsese union

(56:05):
was a little more chafing to the other members of
the band, maybe, than the Byrne-Demme brain trust was to
the other heads. Feature or a bug? The fact that
Demme is so in love with David Byrne and his ideas.

Speaker 4 (56:17):
I mean, I do think it's a feature of this film.
I think that whatever impact it may or may not
have had on the band's relationship with Byrne, I do
think that the film benefits from that loving gaze. Could
we call it a male gaze? A male gaze of
David Byrne. And I think that what's unique about the

(56:38):
way the camera loves David Byrne is that you're not
seeing him in gauzy soft light, like you would in Casablanca, right?
Like you don't have like a, what you're doing is
you're sort of stripping away those ways that we usually
see celebrities or musical personas. And you're seeing, I know

(56:58):
I've already talked about the sweat, but there's a whole
lot of sweat in this movie. You're seeing that the
physical effort that goes into this performance. I mean, I
feel like when I watched this film, I constantly am like,
worried about David Byrne, where I'm like, do you want
to take some Gatorade breaks? Do you need an energy bar?

(57:20):
If it were my child on that stage doing those things,
I'd be like, honey, you got to come off into
the wings and sit down for a few minutes because
you're going to overheat. But ultimately, it is this sort
of celebration of the human body, of what what it
means to be a committed artist, to be a committed musician,
to leave it all on the floor. And I just

(57:44):
love the way the camera looks at his face in
different ways and even transforms. He feels like he almost
transforms throughout the film as well. I mean, his hair
certainly changes. Sometimes it's slicked back. Sometimes it's coming forward.
You've got different outfits, but it almost follows his sort
of chameleon-like persona. as the film goes on. And it

(58:06):
is a fascinating 88 minutes of watching a really weird,
interesting artist. And I think that the film would be
less compelling to me if there were a little more
democracy in the way people in the film were shot.
But maybe I'm only saying that because I've been so

(58:26):
convinced by Jonathan Demme's camera that David Byrne is the
most compelling person to watch ever. But yeah, I do
think he's not only in love with David Byrne in
his camera work, but he's also impressed by David Byrne.
Like you feel him going, wow, I want that level
of commitment or that level of it's not even just commitment, right?

(58:49):
It's like almost a masochistic lack of care for the
body in pursuit of some sort of artistic perfection.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
I don't remember exactly what year Jonathan Demme died, but
I know the commentary track that I just watched on
Stop Making Sense was recorded in 99. And during the
Girlfriend is Better segment, he says, you know, everybody talks
about how Robert De Niro gained and lost all this
weight for Raging Bull, and no one ever talks about
how David Byrne did it so quickly to fill that suit.
And I was like, wait, is that a Scorsese dig?

(59:21):
Is that a Last Waltz dig?

Speaker 3 (59:22):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Michael Chapman did shoot Raging Bull and the primary DP
on The Last Waltz. All right. Three points for concern
for the star's hydration there, Elizabeth. The first time I
saw an E Street Band show from behind the drum kit,
I was like keeping track by the number of quarts
of Gatorade that Bruce pounded, which as a sweaty person,
I appreciated.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
All right.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
Stephen, can you convince me that Scorsese's QPI adoration of
Robbie Robertson is a selling point, is a virtue?

Speaker 3 (59:52):
I mean, can you blame Scorsese? I mean, Robbie Robertson's
hair in this film is unbelievable. I mean, it's just
his wide collared shirt and the scarf. I mean, he's
like the most dashing looking guy. No, I actually think
that the focus on Robertson and even the focus on Byrne,
I actually think it's like overstated a little bit. I mean,

(01:00:15):
clearly these are like the leading men of the respected films,
but I actually feel like you do get a lot
of character moments with other people in the band. With
Stock Making Sense, one of the things I love about
that movie is that you do feel like you get
a little bit of time with each person on stage.
I feel like I know Alex Weir and Steve Souls

(01:00:37):
and Lynn Mabry. I fall in love with each member
of what they're doing. I know how they're moving around
on stage and I know their little tics and how
they're smiling at each other. I do think that It's
not just David Byrne in that film. I would actually
say that Tina Weymouth is the most attractive person in
Stop Making Sense. In the same way, I might argue that, like,

(01:00:59):
Levon Helm is actually the best-looking guy in The Last Waltz.
I mean, he has incredible leading man moments in the film,
which is funny because he hates the movie. I mean,
he's trashed The Last Waltz. He trashed it in his book,
The Wheels on Fire, and he talked about how much
he hated it, how much he hated Scorsese. But, I mean,

(01:01:19):
come on, when he's singing The Night They Drove Old
Dixie Down, like, he's wearing that, like, kind of see-through shirt,
and he's got, like, his hair is kind of poofed up,
and his beard's looking great. I mean, it's the best-looking
Levon Helm has ever been, ever, on film. If you
look at other performances of him from the 70s and
certainly after that, he never looks as good as he

(01:01:41):
does in The Last Waltz. Same thing with Rick Danko.
He looks incredible. All of the other guest stars that
come on stage, they all look great. The only person
that really gets short shrift in The Last Waltz is
Richard Manuel, who you don't see. And if you only
know about the band from The Last Waltz, you wouldn't
be aware of how important he was to the band

(01:02:02):
in their early history. And the justification for that has
always been that he was in really rough shape. And
Scorsese felt like he was doing Manuel a favor, basically,
by not showing him on camera because... And you can
see that a bit in some of the interview footage
and even some of the performance footage. You know, he's
wearing this, like, plaid suit, and he looks pretty pale,

(01:02:25):
a little worse for wear. He sings Shape I'm In, ironically.
You know, he's not in very good shape in the film. ¶ ¶ ¶ ¶

(01:02:47):
But yeah, I mean, Scorsese especially has taken a lot
of grief, I think, for how much he featured Robertson
in the film. But I don't know. I feel like
I come away from that film remembering a lot of
other people and what they did. So I feel like
there are instances where people have their moments in that
film enough where it's not overbearing to me how much

(01:03:11):
Robertson is featured. His floppy hair and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
I'm going to give you the full three for that one. Yes,
I was thinking watching this movie again, and the Criterion
4K of The Last Waltz just looks so, so damn good.
I know from reading your books, Stephen, you watch this
film on VHS. I was unaware of The Last Waltz
during the analog video era, so I have only seen
it in its pristine form. But yeah, looking at Every

(01:03:40):
band member, regardless of what their health, substance abuse, etc.,
whatever status was in that, I thought of The Fablemans,
where the bully tells the Spielberg stand-in, like, I don't
know how you made me look like that, and why
did you make me look so heroic? And yeah, everybody
looks super hot in that movie. So that brings me
to the next category, cinematography. Here again, just by the numbers,

(01:04:02):
The Last Waltz would seem to have the advantage because
we have primarily Michael Chapman, again, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, etc.,
Laszlo Kovacs is the guy who happened to catch that
Muddy Waters performance, is the only guy whose camera was
operating at that moment. Vilmos Zygmund, who I was either
still shooting Close Encounters or had just shot Close Encounters,
hard to tell. Close Encounters comes out November 77, the

(01:04:24):
year after that Last Waltz concert. But clearly this is
as much a murderer's row of DPs as it was
of great singer-songwriters. On the other hand, it would stop
making sense. Demi's usual DP, Tak Fujimoto, was unavailable. So
he got Jordan Cronenweth, who had done Citizen's Band for him,
but he is coming off of Blade Runner, one of
the most visually influential films of the last 45 years.

(01:04:49):
And Demi said he had to talk him into it
because he didn't really think Cronenweth was much of a
rock fan. Stephen, make the case, if you wish, that
The Last Waltz is the better looking concert film.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Look, Stop Making Sense, I think, looks fantastic. I mean,
especially the way it's lit and the way it takes you, again,
through all these different parts of the show while also
having a pretty bare-bones stage. I mean, it seems like
that was done primarily through lighting and then with the filmmaking,
just like where he's putting the camera and the way

(01:05:21):
it's edited and all that. So it looks great. But
come on, it's The Last Waltz. I mean, it looks
like Gone with the Wind. It just looks like this
classic Hollywood production. Just the browns and the greens and
those dark kind of autumn colors in The Last Waltz
and the reds of it. I mean, it really looks

(01:05:43):
like autumn in a lot of ways. It feels like
a Thanksgiving film. It feels like the end of the year.
It feels like the end of an era. And it's
just rendered... So gorgeously. And it adds to the feeling
that this is a momentous occasion, that this is, I'm
not going to say the phrase that got me dinged.
I almost said it. A unique, unprecedented in a generation.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
A mono occurrence.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
A mono.

Speaker 4 (01:06:08):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
A singular occurrence. thing in a span of time one
could say this event is.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
I feel like we could punch up your phrasing there.

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):
I'm trying not to say any talking head song titles
as I'm describing this, but yeah, I just feel like
the way that he shot it too, I think that
it afforded a level of grandeur to a rock concert
that we really hadn't seen before. I think that when
you look at the older rock films, there's a grittiness
to them, you know, they kind of look like they're
shot on 16 millimeter a lot of the time. And

(01:06:39):
for him to come in and shoot it Like it
was an MGM musical, you know, similar to the flair
that he brought to New York, New York, I think
really makes The Last Waltz unique. I think even now,
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a concert
film that just looks as good as this. And you
probably won't again. I mean, I can't imagine what it

(01:07:00):
would cost to employ all those people now, like in 20, $ 26,
if you're going to shoot the last concert of whoever, uh, now,
I think it'd be impossible. So I think not only
is this a singular event in terms of the musicians involved,
but also all of those great cinematographers coming together for

(01:07:20):
one concert film. It just adds to the specialness, I think,
of the enterprise. All right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
So you are swayed by those rented chandeliers, Stephen. We
should say about Boris Levin, the production designer of West
Side Story and other classic musicals who worked on The
Last Waltz. That worked for you.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
Based on that, I think for a lot of people,
certainly me, I hadn't been to a lot of concerts
when I saw The Last Waltz for the first time
as a teenager. So it really sets you up for
a grandiose experience that you are not going to have
replicated in your life. But as great as Stop Making
Sense looks as a film, and it does look great,

(01:07:59):
you can't look better than The Last Waltz. I just
think that's self-evident to me. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
First place with three points, Elizabeth. To stop making sense,
please your eye more.

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
I mean, listen, I am going to concede that Michael Chapman,
I think, is fantastic. Invasion of the Body Snatchers is
one of my all-time favorites.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Oh, the 78?

Speaker 4 (01:08:19):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
Yes, with baby Jeff Goldblum.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
It goes back to the greens in that movie just
blow me away. What Michael Chapman does with colors I
think is amazing. And I did watch The Last Waltz
a couple nights ago just so I could remember what
I was up against. And I did instantly go, ah,
the colors here are so great. So I'm going to
acknowledge that I think Chapman's colors and the colors of

(01:08:45):
The Last Waltz and the way it looks are fantastic.
I was thinking about comparing the cinematography of these two
films like drinks, right? So like The Last Waltz is
super smooth. It's like a really It's so artistic. I

(01:09:12):
think Stop Making Sense is like a strong, dirty martini, right?
Where you're like, oh, it's like it's burnt. It's a
little salty. It's it's going to like make you want
to get up and dance, but it's not necessarily going
to soothe you. It's a little bit in your face.
I do think the cinematography of that film works for

(01:09:32):
what the film wants to do. Does it look better
than The Last Waltz? I don't know if I can
say it looks better, but I think that it is
ultimately so good at achieving the effect for the viewer
that the movie wants to achieve, which is that immersive, hot,
like you can feel the heat of the lights on
you almost when you're watching it. You feel like you

(01:09:55):
are up there on the stage with the band. And
I think that the way it looks is central to
the way it creates an experience for the viewer. So
in that way, I think it would be, that's the
way I could argue for Stop Making Sense. Not, like
I said, not looking better, but like having more effective
cinematography for its purpose.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
Can I just say that there's this shot in Stop
Making Sense that I think is like one of the
greatest shots in any music film I've seen, which is
during Found a Job at the end of the song
where the camera's on the side of the stage. And
you see the two guitar players and the bass player
bobbing and weaving. Yeah. I love that shot. I just
think that's one of the greatest sort of performance and

(01:10:41):
showing how a band works together shots ever. And it's
not flashy, but it is so evocative and it says
so much. I've rewound that part many times, like whenever
I've watched that film. I just think that's like one
of the most amazing shots in any concert film. All right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
So I had three points for Elizabeth for a, you know,
expressive and salivating cocktail metaphor. But I am docking her
one point for empathy, reasonableness, kindness to her opponent. We
don't want to see that. So that's a warning for you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
Why do I get docked? Because I just went on
a thing about how good this shot was.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
Well, you've already been penalized.

Speaker 4 (01:11:34):
That's in character for you right now, Stephen.

Speaker 3 (01:11:37):
All right. Well, it's just fun. Like, I want to
talk about how good Stop Making Sense is, too. I mean,
I love both these films.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
You know, Stephen, Elizabeth, like other regimes, this one is
not merely fascistic, but also incompetent. You know, we're not
consistent in our evil over here.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
All right. All right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
I need you to vamp for a moment while I
do some simple addition. Okay. We'll take the whole of
my mental faculties here.

Speaker 4 (01:12:02):
No, I mean, I do think it's fun to talk
about how good each film is because they are two
of the best music films around. And like I said,
I think Stop Making Sense opened me up to seeing
that a concert film could be something more. In my younger,
you know, 20-something head, it was like, you're just listening
to the music. And I think both of these films
really are doing something so much bigger than just listening

(01:12:24):
to the music.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
Right. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of concert films
that are just shot for just being watched at home. Like,
they're basically just things for fans to watch where it's
just a straightforward. But these are, like, really cinematic. They're
real films.

Speaker 4 (01:12:38):
They are.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
And I think for this show to really work, if
I can offer another comment.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
Please.

Speaker 3 (01:12:42):
Write it down.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Drop it in the mail.

Speaker 3 (01:12:44):
Is that you need to have, like, one insane person
who's going to argue for something that is totally off base.
That's totally unhinged. Yeah. Yeah, so you need to have, like,
Stop Making Sense. And someone who is like Jonas Brothers
live at the Rose Bowl is the greatest concert. All right. Well, Steven,
I had, cause then that would be it. Cause then
it would be like, It could be something really at

(01:13:05):
stake because maybe the insane person is like a brilliant
debater and they'll win the debate even though they're clearly wrong.
You know, that might make the show more interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:13:14):
We could talk about like M. Night Shyamalan's Trap and
argue for Trap as a concert film.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
That would be interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
Isn't like his daughter the pop star in that movie?

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:13:27):
And it is like 90% a concert.

Speaker 3 (01:13:30):
It's true. And I saw that on a plane and
loved it. So it was a great plane. It's actually
a fun movie. A great plane movie that's a fake
concert film.

Speaker 4 (01:13:39):
There you go.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
It's good.

Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
We just need to come up with one more of
those so that we can have a death match.

Speaker 6 (01:13:45):
Oh, man.

Speaker 3 (01:13:46):
Plane movies would be a great category. I love talking
about plane movie. I cried twice watching Guardians of the
Galaxy Vol. 2 on a plane. It was like Terms
of Endearment or something.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
I mean, was it just not that you liked one
of the songs on the, I mean, those are famously
soundtrack forward movies, right? They're well curated.

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
I think it was like the Kurt Russell being his dad. Oh, okay.
And also you're like 30,000 feet in the sky. Yeah.
Like I've heard that you cry more on planes.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
You're dehydrated.

Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
I believe that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
Your blood pressure is different. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
So, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Well, Steven, your wish for more chaos, I will warn you,
you have emboldened me for something I wasn't sure whether
to do in round three, but now it's coming. So, yes.
Coming to the end of round two, the movie's in
our time. I have this, a very tight 20 to
19 game in favor of Elizabeth. Still, still very close.
He's gonna take, he's gonna take what he wants whenever.

Speaker 4 (01:14:42):
He's gonna say, he's gonna say I'm his only treasure.
He's gonna fake, he's gonna fake till he got me tethered.
A cliche overplayed, gotta choose some better.

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
For round three, the movies for all time, where we
consider how these films echo through eternity. I have gone
to more arbitrary and perhaps even irrelevant lightning round style
questions to allow someone to make the difference. And I
will begin with Stephen this time. Can you tell me

(01:15:19):
that 33-year-old Robbie Robertson is hotter than 31-year-old David Byrne?

Speaker 4 (01:15:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:15:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
No question. Okay. Briefly, briefly. Let's make this a... Is
it the hair?

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
Is it the... What are we talking about here?

Speaker 3 (01:15:32):
Yeah, and I think it's clear, without getting vulgar, that
he's done more of that sort of thing than David
Byrne has and would probably be more skilled. He just
looks like that kind of person at that age, you know,
at that time. David Byrne did not get an offer
from Ronnie Hawkins that he could not refuse. But again,
what I was saying before, I mean, I would actually...
If you want to say Tina Weymouth versus Levon Helm,

(01:15:54):
that's a whole other issue. But if it's Robbie versus...
David Byrne, I mean, I know, Elizabeth, you were talking
about how sexy he is. So, you know, this is
all in the eye of the beholder. I think of
David Byrne as being like an asexual person. You know,
he's very magnetic, but he's not very sexual to me.
Whereas Robbie, I mean, let's be real. If you're alone

(01:16:18):
with Robbie in 1976, I don't care what persuasion you are.
I would be nervous myself around Robbie. I would be like, oh,
those eyes. Where are we going, Robbie? I'll go wherever
you want to go. So I just think he's got
the rock star thing. He's more of a rock star
than David Byrne is, I would say. As great as

(01:16:38):
David Byrne is. Not a rock star. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
Again, I'm only giving you two points there because once again,
you conceded a point to your opponent.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
Elizabeth, let your heart- I thought I was docked because
I said I would go home with Rodney Roberts. I
thought I made it weird there and you didn't know
what to do.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
I don't know what to do with that one. Don't worry.
Weirder questions yet to come. Let's get primal here, Elizabeth.
Make the case for the sexual or intellectual or whatever
magnetism of 31-year-old David Byrne.

Speaker 4 (01:17:07):
I think sexiness is totally divorced from beauty, looks, also experience,
if we're going to go with experience, Stephen. To me,
something sexy, someone sexy is someone who carries an aura
about them that is unique, unrepeatable, that makes you go like, wow,

(01:17:29):
I want to get into this person's bed because there's
no one else like them, right? Because they are so
out there. Like I said in my opening statement, there's
no one like David Byrne. And I feel like that
makes him sexy. That sort of compelling, like, I have
no idea what's going on with this man. And maybe

(01:17:51):
if I got closer to him, I could figure it
out a little bit. Also, I do think that the
way that he's shot in Stop Making Sense is more
tangible than Robbie Robertson. I think he feels like a
very tangible body. And you can't tell me that when
he takes off the big suit, there's not a moment

(01:18:11):
where you're like, yeah, just keep going, right? Like, just
keep taking it off. I think he's so compelling and
like you said, magnetic. But to me, that is very sexy.
And I am also a weirdo. So, like, maybe sometimes
my picks for people I think are very sexy bother
my husband because he's like, wait, do I look like

(01:18:32):
that guy? But it's about the aura.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
Stephen, you've been hurt a little bit on this subject.
Can you convince me that Van Morrison, again, I'm going
to say inventing Jack Black's entire persona during his performance
of Caravan in The Last Wall, that that is less
embarrassing than chris france's vocal on genius of love when
he's trying to do the james brown yelps and squeals

(01:18:58):
and everything in addition to just.

Speaker 5 (01:18:59):
Going james brown james brown check it out y'all in
his golf shirt does van still come out a winner
in this equation Well, I mean, I sort of reject
the premise of this question, actually, because I don't think
either one is objectionable.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
I think they are both doing something where they are
normal looking guys who are doing something extraordinary on stage.
I think that's an appeal of both of them, you know,
where if you watch it, yeah, it's not David Byrne,
it's not Robbie Robertson, but it is like people kind

(01:19:33):
of stepping out from the audience almost and being extraordinary.
I mean, I would say that Ben Morrison is a
better performance than Genius of Love in Stop Making Sense.
I just think he's such an incredible singer. And I
always love that magic trick that Ben Morrison pulls, like
where he comes out on stage and you're like, what

(01:19:53):
is this guy going to do? Like this schlubby looking guy.
And then he opens his voice and it's like this
voice of an angel. You know, and he has such

(01:20:14):
great magnetism. And I feel like I'm a bigger Van
Morrison fan maybe than certainly you, Chris. I don't know
if you, we had the whole anti-vaxxer thing. I don't
know if I'm like fighting against that still, but I
don't know. It's hard for me to believe that people
watch caravan or genius of love and are just have

(01:20:34):
their head in their hands and like oh my god
I can't even watch this this is awkward or uncomfortable
if someone is doing that I put that on them
being a killjoy and having just like a superior attitude
about things because I think that they're both extraordinary but
I would say if I had to pick one yeah
I think van doing caravan is one of the greatest

(01:20:56):
performances ever in a film so but I'm not going
to knock Chris France at all. I don't think, I
don't find that embarrassing. I mean, come on. It's Chris France. Yes.
You know, no one here on this show is as
cool as Chris France was on his worst day. You know,
he's the drummer of the Talking Heads. What have any
of us done, you know, that is as cool as that?

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Just because he's dressed like he works in a cell
phone store.

Speaker 3 (01:21:20):
That's part of the great thing about him, though. That's
part of the great thing about Chris France. In the
same way that David Byrne was a guy who looked
like a normal guy, At the beginning. And then he
does all these extraordinary things. And you're like, wow, that
guy did that? That's amazing. And I always feel like
that was part of the cool thing about the Talking
Heads is that they didn't dress like a rock band.

(01:21:41):
They dressed like college students or people that work in
an office. And yet they could make some of the
most forward thinking and funky music of their time. You know,
if they had looked more exotic, I don't think it
would have been as interesting. You know?

Speaker 6 (01:21:57):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:21:58):
So you need that tension, I think, that normal people
doing extraordinary things, I think, is a big part of
certainly stop making sense. Van does not look ordinary. I mean,
he looks crazy, but it's amazing. He totally kills it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
Steven, I want to give you three points for knowing
which Chris to defend and which Chris to antagonize.

Speaker 1 (01:22:18):
But.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
Once again, you're defending your opponent's champion here, so I'm
going to dock.

Speaker 3 (01:22:23):
You one point there and give you two points. I'm
attacking the premise of the question, I guess. You are.
I'm attacking the fascist state here.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
Full points for combativeness and rebellion.

Speaker 3 (01:22:35):
But I don't think it's cringey. I don't think either
one is cringey.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Elizabeth, do you feel like a turquoise polo shirt is
more flattering to... Hmm. Any man than a very tight-fitting, like,
purple tank top with, you know, a sort of paunch
spilling out over it and all of that. Make the
pro-France argument.

Speaker 4 (01:22:57):
I mean, I think the pro-France argument is not that
it's a better performance because I don't love the performance.
But I think the pro-France.

Speaker 3 (01:23:08):
Dan Morrison? Dan Morrison. Check it out, y'all.

Speaker 4 (01:23:12):
I mean, listen, is it bizarre?

Speaker 3 (01:23:16):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:23:17):
And so that's where I think you could make the
argument because the film is, as I said before, it
is sort of this experimental art band, right? Doing this
experimental art performance. I mean, we didn't really talk about
the sort of strange, it's in Making Flippy Floppy, I think,
the strange projections on the back where you have things

(01:23:37):
that say like pancakes, onions, you know, like.

Speaker 3 (01:23:42):
It's weird.

Speaker 4 (01:23:43):
And so I think that Chris Francis' performance within the
context of the film makes sense. As Stephen said, isn't
like super off-putting because you're in the mode at that
point in the set list of like, all right, I'm
just going to go with whatever's happening. I've surrendered at
this point to whatever's going on on this stage. I
have no control over My ability to leave the television

(01:24:06):
screen or the movie theater, I have to watch this.
So is it really, really strange and in some ways
maybe not technically good? Yes. But is it also like
a compelling piece of this larger whole? Yeah, I don't

(01:24:27):
think you could pull this number out. I think you
need it in there to get the full effect. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:24:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
And in one of those retrospective interviews that I think was,
was shot in 2023 for the re-release, Tina Weymouth says
that Demi or somebody told her, Oh, we're not going
to use the Tom Tom club number again. And she
was like, that's fine. I don't think you should. And
then said she was surprised that it turned up in
the movie. She also said that Pauline Kael singled it
out as not belonging, but then said she came around.

(01:25:06):
So I guess, I don't know, maybe Kael reviewed the
film on more than one occasion. I have not been
able to find more than one Kael piece, but I
am citing Tina Weymouth here circa 2023. Is that a.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
Common complaint about that making sense? Like, do people not
like Genius of Love?

Speaker 4 (01:25:20):
I think a lot of people would see that as
a number that they're going to get up and get water,
get a snack.

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:25:27):
And I mean, it is a costume change for Burn, right?
I mean, it does have a practical spot in the show.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
I guess I've never felt that way watching the movie.
I guess I understand why people feel that way, but
it's such a tight film. I don't feel like there's any,
I don't even feel like that is a down part
for me, but a genius of love defender over here,
I guess.

Speaker 4 (01:25:46):
I mean, as you guys were talking, I was also
just thinking about how, if you're looking at the contemporary
influence of Stop Making Sense, There's so many ways in
which Stop Making Sense has been parodied, has been referenced,
has been reimagined in the public consciousness, right? Like you
have a Documentary Now episode that's basically sort of doing

(01:26:07):
sections of Stop Making Sense. You have like the big suit,
as we've already referenced, which becomes this sort of like
iconic visual referent that shows up in various places. Like
even people who don't know anything about the Talking Heads
or David Byrne, Like I had a colleague at my
old job, the last school I was at, who like

(01:26:28):
literally had no public consciousness of this. And I was
talking about the talking heads at some point and she said,
I don't think I know who the talking heads are.
And I was like, yeah, but it's like, do you
know the big suit? And she was like, oh, the
big suit? Like she knew that aspect of it. I
think that the bleed of Stop Making Sense into contemporary culture,

(01:26:49):
I would argue, is greater in certain ways than the
last waltz. Even the re-release in theaters that I think
was really well received in a lot of theaters just,
and wasn't that a couple years ago, 2023? It was 2023, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:27:03):
So, I mean, if we're talking about influences and how
this film has continued to grow and to be seen
in the public consciousness, I'm going to argue that Stop
Making Sense has so many more pieces of it that
people know culturally, even if they are not aware of
the film.

Speaker 3 (01:27:20):
And I would disagree with that. Oh, okay. Well, and
I said this before, I think that Stop Making Sense,
I guess I'm thinking in terms of music culture, really
rises and falls depending on where Talking Heads stock is at,
at a current moment in time. And there are times
when Talking Heads, like any legacy band, comes into fashion

(01:27:43):
and when they go out of fashion. And when that
re-release happened a few years ago, there was a covers
album put out of Talking Heads songs, so they had
a little blip again but you know I don't know
if Talking Heads necessarily are like a big influence on
bands that I am hearing now I would say Last
Waltz has a baseline of influence where like I was

(01:28:05):
saying at the beginning you know every year there are
Last Waltz tribute concerts that happen throughout the country like
in every local music scene I would say every town
I've ever lived in there was always at least one
last waltz tribute where local bands would get together and
they would do a big concert and it was a
big deal and then i would just say in terms
of certainly certain music genres the last waltz is the

(01:28:30):
fashion plate for how people present themselves i would say
even now any kind of rootsy kind of music they
are dressing like this and they're trying to replicate whatever's
going on in this film. So I just feel like
there's sort of an element of The Last Waltz that
never goes away in music culture, whereas Talking Heads might
be a little up and down depending on when people

(01:28:53):
decide to revisit those records.

Speaker 2 (01:28:55):
That's very compelling. Well, I'm going to give Elizabeth three
points there. continue to vamp while the scoring committee tallies
the final vote here.

Speaker 4 (01:29:04):
This has been a really fun conversation. I just want
to say, like, Steve and I so appreciate your knowledge
of music history, which is something I really don't have.
And so that's, I mean, not that I don't have
any knowledge, but certainly not anywhere near as knowledgeable as
you in those ways. So it's been fun to hear
those different threads.

Speaker 3 (01:29:23):
Well, and it was great talking with you and hearing
you talk about the filmmaking, it's not making sense. And
the sort of the visual set. Cause I, I tend
to come at these, I think more as a music person.
So to hear it coming from the cinematic side, I
think is really interesting. And I just love talking about
these films. I mean, I, I really do love both
of these movies. I've seen them both many, many times

(01:29:46):
and you really can't go wrong with either one. And
something with Elizabeth said earlier, I think is totally true.
They're trying to do two different things. So they, you
can compare them because they're both concert films, but, They're
very different and they're good for what they are.

Speaker 4 (01:30:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
I mean, like... That said, though, let's tell you the
score here.

Speaker 2 (01:30:04):
I know. Well, I do have a final score. And,
you know, as tempted as I am to penalize you
both for your comity and kindness to one another, I won't.
With respect and gratitude to both advocates for the substance
and passion of their scholarship. On the basis of the
evidence presented here today, the court does find in favor

(01:30:25):
of Elizabeth by one point... 25 to 24. So it's
a real shame.

Speaker 3 (01:30:31):
What a shock. I'll take it. What a shock that
Stop Making Sense won.

Speaker 4 (01:30:37):
It is a better movie.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
It is a bummer that, you know. Man, you could
not have predicted that at the beginning of this episode.
The last Waltz will cease to exist. So I'm glad
I invested in that Criterion hard copy on 4K, you guys.
You know, listen to Christopher Nolan. Listen to Martin Scorsese.
Listen to everybody. Get your physical media. You can wait
for the Criterion flash sale and save a few bucks
on the last waltz, which I recommend doing because the

(01:31:02):
Stop Making Sense 4K is kind of expensive. I mean,
well worth it, but it is like above your standard
MSRP for a 4K disc, at least going by the
the A24 edition that I have. Well, listeners, now it
is your turn. You go to moviedeathmatch.com and vote for
which of these two music masterpieces you believe to be
the more masterful piece, whether you've been persuaded by one

(01:31:24):
of our expert combatants today or whether you have a
clear favorite from which you will not be moved, as
Stephen has accused me of having. Vote now at moviedeathmatch.com. Elizabeth, Stephen,
thank you both for being here. I am truly saddened
and must mourn the erasure of The Last Waltz. It
is a beloved and influential monumental rock classic, honorably slain

(01:31:47):
in single combat. Well, you set up this very fair
kangaroo court to make that happen. You went through this
charade trial to get the result you wanted. So it's good.
You know, you can justify your elimination of the film.
It gives other marsupials a bad name or a good
name or something.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:32:08):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:32:10):
I'm joking. I'm joking. You know, I'm just playing. I'm
having fun here.

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
So, Elizabeth, we are going to link in the show
notes to your wonderful Bright Wall, Dark Room essay about
Stop Making Sense and its existential mien. Is there anything
else you'd like to plug? Where can listeners find your work?
What else is happening in Bright Wall, Dark Room?

Speaker 4 (01:32:28):
I mean, yeah, Bright Wall, Dark Room is where you're
going to find the majority of my film writing. You
can find me on the Bright Wall, Dark Room podcast,
which we release monthly. And then I also did recently
write an essay on John Carpenter and Schrodinger's cat and
assault on Precinct 13 that I think is a pretty
fun ride. So yeah, hop on over there. There's also

(01:32:50):
so many great essays on that site by so many
wonderful writers. So if you love film and you haven't
heard of Bright Wall Darkroom, I would highly recommend you check.

Speaker 3 (01:32:59):
Our site out.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
I second that endorsement. Thank you, Elizabeth. Stephen, this episode
comes out, I think it's Labor Day, September. Unevil Speakers,
you have a monthly feature catalog club tucking into some
portion of a long live band's catalog. Can you tell
us who's coming up for... catalog club in september.

Speaker 3 (01:33:19):
In september it is a band from the 80s that
broke up in the 80s so not you too with
a very singular front person who is not at all
controversial a band called the smiths oh i'll be talking
about in catalog club this month so Lost the parse
with the spiss. Yeah. Looking forward to digging into that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:40):
There's a Morrissey, Johnny Marr acrimony, right? A little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:33:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:44):
I'm not making that up.

Speaker 3 (01:33:44):
I could say that. Just a touch. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:33:47):
Good.

Speaker 3 (01:33:48):
A little bit. And then my book comes out right
when this episode drops, I think. September 8th.

Speaker 2 (01:33:53):
Is this it? The never-ending rise and fall of the
Strokes and rock and roll? Is that the full and
correct title? That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:34:01):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:02):
Steven, if we were shooting this interview at Shangri-La and
Malibu and Rick Danko was shooting pool in the background
and there was a totally fine Canadian maple leaf flag
on one wall and a dicier Confederate flag on another
wall somewhere, I would ask you to sign at least
one of the several books of yours that I have.
When the YouTube book comes out, will you please sign

(01:34:23):
a copy for me?

Speaker 3 (01:34:24):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:34:25):
Despite your well-founded objections to the entire premise here.

Speaker 3 (01:34:31):
Well, not to the premise. Not to the premise. You know,
but anyway, yes. Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
It was a delight. I'm a longtime reader. Listeners, you
can always email us at deathmatch at filmspotting.com. Tell us
how we can improve our highly flawed scoring system. Suggest
a deathmatch you'd like to see. Once again, deathmatch. Deathmatch
at filmspotting.com is that address. Join us for our next
movie deathmatch when in advance of All Hallows' Eve and

(01:35:01):
in light of Jane Shanebrun's new film Teenage Sex and
Death at Camp Miasma, we will pit two teenage sex
and death classics against one another. It is John Carpenter's
Halloween from the last Waltz year of 1978 versus Wes
Craven's A Nightmare on Elm Street from the Stop Making
Sense year of 1984. We did not do that by design,
but Brian Eno says honor your accidents, so we will.

(01:35:22):
That is on the next Movie Deathmatch. Once again, thank you, Elizabeth.
Thank you, Stephen.

Speaker 4 (01:35:28):
Thank you. This was so much fun. Thanks. And I'm
definitely going to be listening to that episode because I
love a good slasher.

Speaker 2 (01:35:35):
Movie Deathmatch is produced by Chris Klimek, who is me,
and by Golden Joe DeSoe. Without Golden Joe, the show
wouldn't go. It is executive produced by Adam Kempinar and
Sam VanHalgren. My quest to find rhyming nicknames for them
both is ongoing.

All Episodes

Stop Making Sense vs. The Last Waltz | Movie Death Match

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Stop Making Sense vs. The Last Waltz | Movie Death Match