August 27, 2024 • 17 mins
In this special bonus episode of Fire and Fury, Michael and James speak with Christoph Amend, editorial director of ZEIT, a leading German newspaper. They explore how Donald Trump is perceived across Europe, unraveling the continent's complex reactions to his presidency and the broader implications of the rise of right-wing extremism.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
To have a reality TV star become the president of
the country. It's still something that feels kind of strange
from a European perspective. But on the other hand, we
know that America is a country of entertainment, and that's
why we love America. That's why people love American culture
and the way Americans tell their stories. But to realize
that part of that great entertainment industry and the entertainment
(00:24):
culture in the US can lead to something and someone
like Donald Trump is frightening.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
That was Christoph Ahmend, editorial director of Zeit, Germany's leading
newspaper renowned for its deep dives into politics, economics, culture,
fashion and social issues. Michael and I invited Christoph to
join us from Germany for the special bonus episode of
Fire and Fury, the podcast to give us a European
perspective on Donald Trump and how he's perceived across the pond. So, Michael,
(01:02):
you and I spend these podcast hours talking about the
view from our doorstep from other parts of the country.
We never really talk about reviews from abroad.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
We spend them alone. So what you're about to say
is that we're now board with each other.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Oh Michael, Well, should we need fresh air? I can
think of no one better than our friend in Germany,
Christoph Amand, who edits the Zeit magazine, a wonderful magazine
and hosts two very very popular podcasts. So we're going
to throw it open to Christoph to tell us what
the hell Europe makes of what's going on in America,
(01:40):
particularly with DJT. You call him DJT now, that's the
first time I was trying it out.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I call him that almost naturally now because I speak
to a lot of people who always call him either
DJT Podus. I always find that term of endearment difficult
to use or and this is also confusing, but they
do this as it rolls just off the ton the president. Well,
the president said, and then you think, what president. But
(02:09):
to them it's very clear there is only one and
has only ever been one president.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, they've kept that going pretty well.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
No, and he requires it too, that you have to
call him the president.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah. And his family is from Germany, so I'm really
sorry for sending the family over to the US.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well, how do the Germans feel about producing two notable,
possibly similar figures.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I guess you're referring to the one fascist and Donald Trump.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
The H word.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
We were actually just having a debate when we got
here whether we should open with the H word, that
that would be a compelling hook, but James felt it
was a little rude.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, I mean, Adolf Hitler was born in Austria and
then he did all these bad, bad things for many decades.
I mean, first of all, thank you for having me
on the show. I've been listening to all of your episodes.
My favorite one is actually about Trump and Murdoch. That
really is an amazing insight to all the connection between
politics and media. My two guys. You know, with Donald Trump,
(03:15):
I mean from a European or from a German perspective,
it's unbelievable that he's stopped there and there's a toss
up in another election campaign. On the other hand, we
have rising right wing radical parties everywhere in Europe and
also in Germany we have a right wing extremist party
who you know, in all the predictions are going to
(03:36):
be like fifteen up to fifteen twenty percent in the
next election.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Well, does that mean you give us a pass because
it's also happening to you, or do we look particularly
strange given that our right winger is not just a
right winger, but it's Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
All the right wing extremist politicians in Germany at the moment,
or in Europe, in journany or for them, Donald Trump
is an idol. He's a hero, right. I mean, they
keep referring to Marga in all his terms, and so
that's something to be very afraid of in Europe. I mean,
the US brought democracy to Germany many decades ago and
stopped fascism, and now we have the rise of fascism
(04:17):
everywhere in the US, of course, but also in Europe.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'm afraid Christopher, do you see any connection between Trump
and Berlusconi? I know you've written about and thought about
Berlusconi a lot, and it seemed to me that's the
closest that Europe has had to a Trumpian figure.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, and Berlusconi was a fantastic entertainer in his own way.
I mean, he even managed to become so popular and
stay popular. I mean, I don't know if you heard
about it, but just recently, a couple of weeks ago,
the city of Milan decided to rename its biggest airport
into Sylvie Belusconi Airport, not unbelievable, but it's true.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
What are some of these similarities and differences between Trump
and the far right in Europe?
Speaker 1 (05:02):
The far right in Europe is very separated, of course.
I mean, if you look at the far right politicians,
the members of the European Parliament. We just had elections
this summer. The German right wing party called IFD Alternative
for Germany, so right wing extremists that even the other
right wing populist parties didn't want to be in the
(05:23):
same group in the parliament. So you have this kind
of middle of the road if you want to call
them right wing populist. And then you have the German one,
which is you know, I'm afraid to say it's their
right wing extreamists in a way that I would never
have expected to experience that in Germany again.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
And what is the relationship between those, let's go with
the German right wing extremists and Trump in the mega movement, Well, I.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Mean, you know, flirting with fascism, basically saying that when
it comes to the big debate about immigrants, it was
even like a serious part assicians from the white ring
side in Austria and in Germany basically saying we have
to kick them out. We have to kick everyone out
who has no so called German roots.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
And is this uniquely German or is this a US import?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Well, I wouldn't say it's an import from the ES.
But of course they're looking at Trump. They're looking at
the way he popularized himself. They look at the way
he is flirting with you know, even with Adolf Hitler, right,
I mean, he did this horrible thing quoting you know,
on a social media platform a couple of months ago, which,
of course in Germany is illegal. So there are sort
(06:38):
of the law situation is different. But they look at
Trump thinking, you know, he can actually become the leader
of his country again.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Can I just ask you in what way specifically is
it illegal to invoke Hitler in Germany?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well after nineteen forty five, after the Western Allies stopped
of Hitler and reintroduced democracy in Germany, the new law
was very and it's still up to this day. You
cannot raise your right hand in public. You'll you know,
you've got problems with the law. You're not allowed to
say certain things, certain words, and these laws are very
very strict. I know, it's very different in the US
(07:12):
and I think it's different than the history of the US,
and the free speech is I think even more important
than the US in the US than it has been
in Germany. But I think it's because of our own
history that there's so many laws to stop people from
acting that way. You know.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Part of the rhetoric here is of course to accuse
Trump of coming close to Hitler like behavior. How does
that play in Germany?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, people are afraid, I'm seriously afraid. You know, no
one could actually believe it a year ago, two years ago,
that Donald Trump would even come close to the White
House again after what had happened, after he'd lost the election.
And that's I think still something that people in Europe,
at least who consider themselves democrats, are still astonished.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I mean, one of the things, given that the last
time around seventy million people voted for Donald Trump. Here
a thing that I try to come back to in
having this discussion with many people in most of the
people I have this discussion with are people who despise
Donald Trump. Is there any way you can see virtues
in Donald Trump?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I remember doing his first election campaign in twenty sixteen.
I was traveling in China and I went home to
my hotel during one of those nights and turned on
the TV and all the Western TV channels were broadcasting
one of his speeches live. It was like I was
skipping through the channels and he was everywhere, and I realized, well,
he's entertaining. People like to watch him because he's unpredictable,
(08:44):
and I think that's something that people get attracted to.
And he's apparently not afraid of saying all the things
that go through his mind, most of them, as we
all know, bad things. But he seems to be a
person who doesn't care, and I think that's part of
his attraction.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
We'll be back right after the break, Christoph.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
One of the things Michael and I talk about a
lot is how the media, particularly the liberal media, has
covered Donald Trump, who is, as Michael said, this one
of a kind, sweet, generous, kind of non politician politician.
And I mean, what's happened in places like the Times
where they have to kind of give equal weight and
(09:38):
create false equivalences between you know, Trump advocating you know,
mass deportation and murder and Democrats saying something mildly controversial,
and these are held up as equals because the media
has never had to deal with someone like it before
and have to be fair toward them. I assume the
European media doesn't have those constraints. I mean I read
(09:59):
the Guard and obviously they don't. But what about throughout Europe?
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, I mean if we look at the topics like immigration,
we have a similar debate in Germany. If you look
at what people are actually really talking about at the moment,
besides our stumbling economy, is of course a migration debate.
And that's something that the liberal media has been struggling
(10:25):
with as well, because it's, on one hand, you don't
want to create a podium or a stage for right
wing extremists talking about migration. On the other hand, migration
has to be dealt with and the sort of the
fears of some people who are not right wing extremists,
but people who are working class, middle class people who
might be afraid of the situation. Their fears, I think,
(10:48):
have to be addressed. And that's something that the liberal
media in Europe is also dealing with.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
And how does a re elected Trump effect and possibly
animate the extreme right in Germany.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Well, he's their man, it's quite obvious. I mean, they
will basically talk about the fact that their candidate, their
man is back in the White House and will be celebrating,
and we'll try to gain some political effect from that.
I mean, we have German elections coming up next year
(11:24):
as well. So if Trump wins and Trump is the
president of the US next year, he'll have a big
debate about fascism again in Germany. The big question is
fascism becomes so popular in Germany that we would have
to face a fascist regime at some point.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
So is there a sense beyond the media sense and
a professional political sense that Donald Trump is an existential
event for Europe and Germany as well as for the US.
In man on the street terms.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, if you look at the Ukraine crisis, prices have
gone up in Germany. Power inflation has been going up
in Germany because of the war in the Ukraine, because
of the consequences. We used to get so much gas
from Russia and so Germany had to cope with these
changes which were forced on us because of the war
in the Ukraine. Having a US president who's who considers
(12:19):
himself a body of Vladimir Putin, that will affect the
everyday's situation because I don't think that the war will
be stopped by Donald Trump at all, so people will
feel it in their pockets.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
And what about the fear of America pulling out of NATO?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Absolutely yeah, And I think that's why some of the
European leaders like Imanoel and Macron from France, and also
the German Translor, all of Shots and quite a few
others have been trying to invest more money in the
forces of Germany and France just because without the US
army in Europe, Vladimir Putin would come up with attacking
(12:59):
another country in Europe. Countries like Germany wouldn't be able
to defend themselves.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And if Harris is elected, does that solve all problems
or does it just postpone those problems?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Well, we don't know, right, I mean, we don't know
about Kamala Harris, how she would handle flam Putin, how
she would handle the situation. But for what I've been
reading and hearing about her and about democratic policy, I
think people would be much much less afraid and would
be thinking like, Okay, you know, we don't agree with
the US in many aspects when it comes to dealing
(13:37):
with foreign policy, but there will be no fear, and
I think that would be a sort of a very
fundamental difference.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Christopher, I don't think it's patronizing, since I'm a bit
of both to say that Europe often follows America in
culture and what we're talking about Trump is more about
culture than it is about politics. Do you foresee a
rise of Trumpian figures? I mean, I was just thinking
about Nigel Farage, you know, that kind of English what
(14:06):
do we call him, diletante, you know, who's starting to
style himself as a kind of Trumpian gad fly.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And who sits at the feet of Trump. I mean
that's really I mean, the inspiration there is direct, and
he kind of bills himself as a protege. And I
was once in the same hotel room with Farage and
Steve Bannon. Farage was clearly the student drunk at the time,
a drunken student, but nevertheles English politician.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Well, you know, we had similar figures in Europe. I
mean in Austria there used to be the first right
wing leader after the Second World War was a man
called Hyder, who was a very good looking, charming local politician,
great entertainer. He was great on TV, he was able
to give great speeches. People love to come and hear
(14:55):
and talk. He was very popular. But absolutely, I mean
there is this possibility to have some sort of similar
figure rising in Europe.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I have one last question as a media person. Do
you wake up in the morning and say, thank God,
I cannot believe God has given us such an incredible moment.
You mean right now, right now, everything that's going on,
all of the characters, all of the events, the rest
(15:31):
of the world can live in fear and peril.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, I mean, I've been thinking about it in the
last couple of days because of the time difference. I
wake up in the morning and turn to the sort
of American news sites, and it's fascinating and exciting in
many ways. I think that's also because after Joe Biden
had decided not to run anymore, it was kind of
like a restart of everything, and everyone had to restart.
(15:55):
So you can observe every acting politician with the same
noled of the situation acting at the same time in
real time. I think that's just fascinating. It's a fascinating story.
I've been reading so much and listening to so many
podcasts with Nancy Pelosi as I've never done in my
life before finding out about this figure who could actually
(16:15):
stop Joe Biden by appearing on a public morning TV
show saying this famous lion. And that's a fascinating right,
It's a fascinating story, hopefully with a happy end.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Hopefully we'll be back to discuss that at the propitious moment. Hey,
thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
This is really great.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Thank you Christop, thank you James, thank you Michael.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
We'll return to our regular program in this week with
a new episode.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
In just a few days.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Fire and Fury the podcast is hosted and executive produced
by Michael Wolfe and James Truman. The producers are Adam
Waller and Emily Marinoff. Executive producers for Kaleidoscope are Mangesh
Heatgeta and Os Valoshian.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Executive producers for iHeart On, Niki Ito and Katrina Novel
To have a reality TV star become the president of
the country. It's still something that feels kind of strange
from a European perspective. But on the other hand, we
know that America is a country of entertainment, and that's
why we love America. That's why people love American culture
and the way Americans tell their stories. But to realize
that part of that great entertainment industry and the entertainment
(00:24):
culture in the US can lead to something and someone
like Donald Trump is frightening.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
That was Christoph Ahmend, editorial director of Zeit, Germany's leading
newspaper renowned for its deep dives into politics, economics, culture,
fashion and social issues. Michael and I invited Christoph to
join us from Germany for the special bonus episode of
Fire and Fury, the podcast to give us a European
perspective on Donald Trump and how he's perceived across the pond. So, Michael,
(01:02):
you and I spend these podcast hours talking about the
view from our doorstep from other parts of the country.
We never really talk about reviews from abroad.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
We spend them alone. So what you're about to say
is that we're now board with each other.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Oh Michael, Well, should we need fresh air? I can
think of no one better than our friend in Germany,
Christoph Amand, who edits the Zeit magazine, a wonderful magazine
and hosts two very very popular podcasts. So we're going
to throw it open to Christoph to tell us what
the hell Europe makes of what's going on in America,
(01:40):
particularly with DJT. You call him DJT now, that's the
first time I was trying it out.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I call him that almost naturally now because I speak
to a lot of people who always call him either
DJT Podus. I always find that term of endearment difficult
to use or and this is also confusing, but they
do this as it rolls just off the ton the president. Well,
the president said, and then you think, what president. But
(02:09):
to them it's very clear there is only one and
has only ever been one president.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, they've kept that going pretty well.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
No, and he requires it too, that you have to
call him the president.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah. And his family is from Germany, so I'm really
sorry for sending the family over to the US.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well, how do the Germans feel about producing two notable,
possibly similar figures.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I guess you're referring to the one fascist and Donald Trump.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
The H word.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
We were actually just having a debate when we got
here whether we should open with the H word, that
that would be a compelling hook, but James felt it
was a little rude.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, I mean, Adolf Hitler was born in Austria and
then he did all these bad, bad things for many decades.
I mean, first of all, thank you for having me
on the show. I've been listening to all of your episodes.
My favorite one is actually about Trump and Murdoch. That
really is an amazing insight to all the connection between
politics and media. My two guys. You know, with Donald Trump,
(03:15):
I mean from a European or from a German perspective,
it's unbelievable that he's stopped there and there's a toss
up in another election campaign. On the other hand, we
have rising right wing radical parties everywhere in Europe and
also in Germany we have a right wing extremist party
who you know, in all the predictions are going to
(03:36):
be like fifteen up to fifteen twenty percent in the
next election.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Well, does that mean you give us a pass because
it's also happening to you, or do we look particularly
strange given that our right winger is not just a
right winger, but it's Donald Trump.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
All the right wing extremist politicians in Germany at the moment,
or in Europe, in journany or for them, Donald Trump
is an idol. He's a hero, right. I mean, they
keep referring to Marga in all his terms, and so
that's something to be very afraid of in Europe. I mean,
the US brought democracy to Germany many decades ago and
stopped fascism, and now we have the rise of fascism
(04:17):
everywhere in the US, of course, but also in Europe.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
I'm afraid Christopher, do you see any connection between Trump
and Berlusconi? I know you've written about and thought about
Berlusconi a lot, and it seemed to me that's the
closest that Europe has had to a Trumpian figure.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, and Berlusconi was a fantastic entertainer in his own way.
I mean, he even managed to become so popular and
stay popular. I mean, I don't know if you heard
about it, but just recently, a couple of weeks ago,
the city of Milan decided to rename its biggest airport
into Sylvie Belusconi Airport, not unbelievable, but it's true.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
What are some of these similarities and differences between Trump
and the far right in Europe?
Speaker 1 (05:02):
The far right in Europe is very separated, of course.
I mean, if you look at the far right politicians,
the members of the European Parliament. We just had elections
this summer. The German right wing party called IFD Alternative
for Germany, so right wing extremists that even the other
right wing populist parties didn't want to be in the
(05:23):
same group in the parliament. So you have this kind
of middle of the road if you want to call
them right wing populist. And then you have the German one,
which is you know, I'm afraid to say it's their
right wing extreamists in a way that I would never
have expected to experience that in Germany again.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
And what is the relationship between those, let's go with
the German right wing extremists and Trump in the mega movement, Well, I.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Mean, you know, flirting with fascism, basically saying that when
it comes to the big debate about immigrants, it was
even like a serious part assicians from the white ring
side in Austria and in Germany basically saying we have
to kick them out. We have to kick everyone out
who has no so called German roots.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
And is this uniquely German or is this a US import?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Well, I wouldn't say it's an import from the ES.
But of course they're looking at Trump. They're looking at
the way he popularized himself. They look at the way
he is flirting with you know, even with Adolf Hitler, right,
I mean, he did this horrible thing quoting you know,
on a social media platform a couple of months ago, which,
of course in Germany is illegal. So there are sort
(06:38):
of the law situation is different. But they look at
Trump thinking, you know, he can actually become the leader
of his country again.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Can I just ask you in what way specifically is
it illegal to invoke Hitler in Germany?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Well after nineteen forty five, after the Western Allies stopped
of Hitler and reintroduced democracy in Germany, the new law
was very and it's still up to this day. You
cannot raise your right hand in public. You'll you know,
you've got problems with the law. You're not allowed to
say certain things, certain words, and these laws are very
very strict. I know, it's very different in the US
(07:12):
and I think it's different than the history of the US,
and the free speech is I think even more important
than the US in the US than it has been
in Germany. But I think it's because of our own
history that there's so many laws to stop people from
acting that way. You know.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Part of the rhetoric here is of course to accuse
Trump of coming close to Hitler like behavior. How does
that play in Germany?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, people are afraid, I'm seriously afraid. You know, no
one could actually believe it a year ago, two years ago,
that Donald Trump would even come close to the White
House again after what had happened, after he'd lost the election.
And that's I think still something that people in Europe,
at least who consider themselves democrats, are still astonished.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I mean, one of the things, given that the last
time around seventy million people voted for Donald Trump. Here
a thing that I try to come back to in
having this discussion with many people in most of the
people I have this discussion with are people who despise
Donald Trump. Is there any way you can see virtues
in Donald Trump?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I remember doing his first election campaign in twenty sixteen.
I was traveling in China and I went home to
my hotel during one of those nights and turned on
the TV and all the Western TV channels were broadcasting
one of his speeches live. It was like I was
skipping through the channels and he was everywhere, and I realized, well,
he's entertaining. People like to watch him because he's unpredictable,
(08:44):
and I think that's something that people get attracted to.
And he's apparently not afraid of saying all the things
that go through his mind, most of them, as we
all know, bad things. But he seems to be a
person who doesn't care, and I think that's part of
his attraction.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
We'll be back right after the break, Christoph.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
One of the things Michael and I talk about a
lot is how the media, particularly the liberal media, has
covered Donald Trump, who is, as Michael said, this one
of a kind, sweet, generous, kind of non politician politician.
And I mean, what's happened in places like the Times
where they have to kind of give equal weight and
(09:38):
create false equivalences between you know, Trump advocating you know,
mass deportation and murder and Democrats saying something mildly controversial,
and these are held up as equals because the media
has never had to deal with someone like it before
and have to be fair toward them. I assume the
European media doesn't have those constraints. I mean I read
(09:59):
the Guard and obviously they don't. But what about throughout Europe?
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, I mean if we look at the topics like immigration,
we have a similar debate in Germany. If you look
at what people are actually really talking about at the moment,
besides our stumbling economy, is of course a migration debate.
And that's something that the liberal media has been struggling
(10:25):
with as well, because it's, on one hand, you don't
want to create a podium or a stage for right
wing extremists talking about migration. On the other hand, migration
has to be dealt with and the sort of the
fears of some people who are not right wing extremists,
but people who are working class, middle class people who
might be afraid of the situation. Their fears, I think,
(10:48):
have to be addressed. And that's something that the liberal
media in Europe is also dealing with.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
And how does a re elected Trump effect and possibly
animate the extreme right in Germany.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Well, he's their man, it's quite obvious. I mean, they
will basically talk about the fact that their candidate, their
man is back in the White House and will be celebrating,
and we'll try to gain some political effect from that.
I mean, we have German elections coming up next year
(11:24):
as well. So if Trump wins and Trump is the
president of the US next year, he'll have a big
debate about fascism again in Germany. The big question is
fascism becomes so popular in Germany that we would have
to face a fascist regime at some point.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
So is there a sense beyond the media sense and
a professional political sense that Donald Trump is an existential
event for Europe and Germany as well as for the US.
In man on the street terms.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, if you look at the Ukraine crisis, prices have
gone up in Germany. Power inflation has been going up
in Germany because of the war in the Ukraine, because
of the consequences. We used to get so much gas
from Russia and so Germany had to cope with these
changes which were forced on us because of the war
in the Ukraine. Having a US president who's who considers
(12:19):
himself a body of Vladimir Putin, that will affect the
everyday's situation because I don't think that the war will
be stopped by Donald Trump at all, so people will
feel it in their pockets.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
And what about the fear of America pulling out of NATO?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Absolutely yeah, And I think that's why some of the
European leaders like Imanoel and Macron from France, and also
the German Translor, all of Shots and quite a few
others have been trying to invest more money in the
forces of Germany and France just because without the US
army in Europe, Vladimir Putin would come up with attacking
(12:59):
another country in Europe. Countries like Germany wouldn't be able
to defend themselves.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And if Harris is elected, does that solve all problems
or does it just postpone those problems?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Well, we don't know, right, I mean, we don't know
about Kamala Harris, how she would handle flam Putin, how
she would handle the situation. But for what I've been
reading and hearing about her and about democratic policy, I
think people would be much much less afraid and would
be thinking like, Okay, you know, we don't agree with
the US in many aspects when it comes to dealing
(13:37):
with foreign policy, but there will be no fear, and
I think that would be a sort of a very
fundamental difference.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Christopher, I don't think it's patronizing, since I'm a bit
of both to say that Europe often follows America in
culture and what we're talking about Trump is more about
culture than it is about politics. Do you foresee a
rise of Trumpian figures? I mean, I was just thinking
about Nigel Farage, you know, that kind of English what
(14:06):
do we call him, diletante, you know, who's starting to
style himself as a kind of Trumpian gad fly.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And who sits at the feet of Trump. I mean
that's really I mean, the inspiration there is direct, and
he kind of bills himself as a protege. And I
was once in the same hotel room with Farage and
Steve Bannon. Farage was clearly the student drunk at the time,
a drunken student, but nevertheles English politician.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Well, you know, we had similar figures in Europe. I
mean in Austria there used to be the first right
wing leader after the Second World War was a man
called Hyder, who was a very good looking, charming local politician,
great entertainer. He was great on TV, he was able
to give great speeches. People love to come and hear
(14:55):
and talk. He was very popular. But absolutely, I mean
there is this possibility to have some sort of similar
figure rising in Europe.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I have one last question as a media person. Do
you wake up in the morning and say, thank God,
I cannot believe God has given us such an incredible moment.
You mean right now, right now, everything that's going on,
all of the characters, all of the events, the rest
(15:31):
of the world can live in fear and peril.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, I mean, I've been thinking about it in the
last couple of days because of the time difference. I
wake up in the morning and turn to the sort
of American news sites, and it's fascinating and exciting in
many ways. I think that's also because after Joe Biden
had decided not to run anymore, it was kind of
like a restart of everything, and everyone had to restart.
(15:55):
So you can observe every acting politician with the same
noled of the situation acting at the same time in
real time. I think that's just fascinating. It's a fascinating story.
I've been reading so much and listening to so many
podcasts with Nancy Pelosi as I've never done in my
life before finding out about this figure who could actually
(16:15):
stop Joe Biden by appearing on a public morning TV
show saying this famous lion. And that's a fascinating right,
It's a fascinating story, hopefully with a happy end.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Hopefully we'll be back to discuss that at the propitious moment. Hey,
thanks so much.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
This is really great.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Thank you Christop, thank you James, thank you Michael.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
We'll return to our regular program in this week with
a new episode.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
In just a few days.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Fire and Fury the podcast is hosted and executive produced
by Michael Wolfe and James Truman. The producers are Adam
Waller and Emily Marinoff. Executive producers for Kaleidoscope are Mangesh
Heatgeta and Os Valoshian.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Executive producers for iHeart On, Niki Ito and Katrina Novel
Hosts And Creators
James Truman
Michael Wolff
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