April 15, 2026 • 32 mins
Music is no longer just something we listen to... it’s something we interpret, share, and use to make sense of the world around us. In this episode, Michael Kassan sits down with Jackie Vignone, CRO of Genius, to explore how the platform has evolved from a lyrics destination into a powerful meeting point for artists, fans, and brands. Together, they unpack what music reveals about culture, why context now carries as much weight as content, and how the relationship between artists and audiences is evolving in a more participatory world.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good Company is a production of iHeartRadio. When we talk
about agility and culture and sort of the nuance around
that new music releases and being a part of what's
happening in music culture is really important and we're constantly
thinking about how we can help brands connect there. But
there's also some forward thinking planning. When it comes to music.
It is not an easy medium to work within. It
(00:22):
takes a lot of planning and it takes the right
amount of due diligence to make sure you are finding
the right emerging artists to work with the brand.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm Michael Cassen and this is Good Company. Together we'll
explore the dynamic intersection of media, marketing, entertainment, sports and technology.
I'll be joined by visionaries, pioneers, and yes, even a
couple of disruptors for candid conversations as we break down
how these masters of ingenuity are shaping the future of business,
culture and everything in between. My bet is you'll pick
(00:59):
up a lessen or two along the way. As I
like to say, it's all good. Welcome back to Good Company.
Music has always been a constant, but the way we
engage with it has changed completely. It's no longer just
something you listen to. It's something you search, interpret, share, debate.
(01:20):
In many ways, it's become one of the clearest reflections
of how people see themselves and the world around them.
And that's exactly why this conversation matters. Jackie Vignoni is
the chief revenue officer at Genius, a platform sitting right
in the middle of that evolution. Genius may have started
with lyrics, but today it's part utility, part media platform,
(01:41):
part cultural decoder. Jackie brings a deeply informed perspective to
that role, one shape by years spent building businesses, navigating
multiple areas of digital media, leading high performing teams, and
helping brands engage audiences with intelligence and nuance. A genius
operating at a particularly interesting intersection artists, fans and brands,
(02:05):
all trying to connect in a media environment that keeps
getting more fragmented, more participatory, and more fluid. So today,
Jackie and I are going to talk about what music
reveals about culture, why context and data have become so valuable,
and what it means to build relevance in a world
shape by storytelling, fandom and brand ambition. Jackie, it's great
(02:28):
to have you here today. Let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Thank you for having me, Jackie.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Let me start with music. My fantasy was to be
a singer. I tell a story that I'm going to
start with. I was interviewing Tyler Perry years ago and
I said to him, so, Tyler, how'd you know you
were funny? And he said, well, when I was growing up,
my mother always used to tell me I was funny.
I said, well, that's funny because when I was growing up,
my mother told me I had a good voice, that
(02:53):
I'm not a singer. He goes, you will be before
we get off the stage. And we were in can
for the Can Lyons, and this was many years ago,
and at the end of the interview he said, okay, Michael,
before we get off this stage, you're going to sing,
and he forced me to do it. So I had
that moment. But music, and we're not talking about my
singing ability here.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Today.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
We're talking about the soundtrack of people's lives, and I
want to really dive into that. But I want to
go back. In two thousand and six, Unilever, one of
the largest marketers in the world, asked me to organize
a day for their marketers on new media two thousand
and six, So we're talking about twenty years ago, and
(03:33):
I suggested that we add music to that, and they
were thinking, we want to talk to Facebook and we
want to talk to YouTube, and I said, that's all good,
but you also want to talk to music. And they
said why. I said, well, because music is so much
more important to brands than just a jingle for a commercial.
So that's an opening for me to say, Jackie, I'm
(03:55):
really excited to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Could we start with kind of how we listen to
music now? I mean, I want to get into your background,
I want to get into your journey, but I want
to start with the consumer journey. How do people listen
to music?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Now we listen? We can agree that streaming continues to
dominate music consumption. We're renting music, and that ability to
rent music, there's some sort of disassociation and connection that's
lost in that. Discovery platforms like TikTok or I like
to call them interest based platforms at this point, not
even social platforms have changed the way music discovery is
(04:32):
coming to the forefront. And we think, you know, if
I can maybe tip us into a demographic that is
so important to us. We think about gen Z, this
fifteen to thirty year old today who is consuming forty
percent more music than any other cohort, and crazy when
they think about genres, right, they don't think, oh, I'm
a hip hop fan, I'm a K pop fan. Big
(04:55):
day for K pop today, Actually big day for k
big day for K pop. They think they're more of right,
They're thinking about what is being served to them and
how they engage with what's in served to them. So
in the age of attention, we are trying to figure
out how we get that fans attention to then deeply
connect that artist. And that's hard.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
It's harder to get fans' attention than it.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Is their money.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It sure is. As much as an artist has a
close connection to their fans because of the proliferation of media,
right they can talk to us to their fans, they
actually don't own that. They don't own that connection.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
No, And you know, Jackie, it's so interesting because early
in the turn of the century, I was involved working
with a company called Artist Direct, which you probably remember,
which was that moment where you could create that ability
and the name spoke for itself to communicate directly to
the artist directly to the fan, and it goes to
the basis of social media. But the play of music
(05:47):
in social media is where it gets so interesting because
I remember one of the largest consumer packaged goods companies
in the world, probably more than fifteen years ago, asked
me a question, Michael, do I need to really pay
attention to this? And I'm not kidding when I say
this friendst to this world of social media wasn't called
(06:09):
social media event, but to this world. I said, Well,
in your case, you touch a billion consumers a day.
Today that company touches probably three billion consumers a day.
I said, wouldn't it be interesting if you could have
a conversation with those people? And that was it, So
you know that set the table.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, and you know, back to that connection, fans can
have that conversation. Right. We see this with that Bunny
and Charlie Xcas and all of these artists who have
created these cultural movements by this direct to fan or
direct to consumer conversation. But if that artist wants to
expand upon that connection, they want to sell merge, they
(06:50):
want to go on tour, they actually don't own that connection.
So they now have to go back to those platforms
to buy those connections, and it's a really interesting dynamic
that type play.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Jackie did working a genius change the way you consume music,
the way you listen to music. And you know you've
got kids two boys, I think you know talk about
that and are they in that cohort?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah. So I remember my first show being nineteen eighty nine.
I went to an SNL taping. John Lithgow was the host.
I didn't know who that was at the time, but
my dad took me to SNL to see Tracy Chapman.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
My kid's first concert was Peter Allen, but that was
because it was my taste, not theirs.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And that's exactly right. So I grew up with Tracy
Chapman and the Eagles and Joan Armor trading in long
car rides from New York City to Vermont, and I
think my dad put so much emphasis on lyrics and
I didn't really resonate with me throughout my childhood. I
was an athlete, lots of music in my ears. I
don't know if I ever really knew the lyrics to
a song. So genius really changed my perspective that without
(07:52):
really understanding what a song means, you actually don't know
an artist's story, So.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's so crazy.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
This is an area that's a high interest to make
because I love music, and I consume music all the time,
and music is very much a part of my life.
My youngest son, who's forty five years old, I've force
fed my kids on Ella Fitzgerald and the music that
I loved. The story, it's so perfect for what you
(08:20):
just said. We're driving in the car. I was driving
carpool with my kids and my younger son started singing
the lyrics to a song called Too Darn Hot by
Ella Fitzgerald, and one of his friends in the car said, Adam,
how do you know that song? It was so interesting
that he was almost it was almost accusatory, like, how
(08:40):
do you know the lyrics to that song? I mean,
just as you're saying that the relationship to that artist,
how have you seen that change?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Fans of music can be passive or leaned in. We
see that, you know, that's a gen z. You know,
streaming music is a passive experience. What we see though,
with this generation is that they also want to have
more of that one to one connection. And this is
where a genius has really played a unique role in
the ecosystem, which is connecting one hundred million consumers to
(09:09):
the artists on our site, and that level of engagement
and discourse around something as passionate and as identifying as
music is really interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Let's go back to lyrics though, you know, words in music.
It's kind of like in business. We talk about rain
makers in the context of business, but I've always focused
on the need for the umbrella carriers, because if all
you have is people who make rain and nobody to
carry the umbrella, then people get wet music and lyrics.
(09:42):
You know, what comes first obviously the inspiration, But lyrics
mean something to the person who writes them, and generally
we've been able to interpret them the way we want
to interpret them what it means to me. You know,
Taylor Swift can tell us these are girls or heartfelt,
you know, friends she lost, but maybe that's not what
it means to me. But a culture that kind of
(10:05):
genius was at the beginning of building a culture around
maybe annotating these lyrics, kind of maybe telling people what
they should think the lyrics mean. You know, I don't know,
it's interesting, and I remember growing up there were songs
that I didn't know the lyrics to But I thought
the lyrics said different words. Then I found out, actually,
that's not all these years what they've been saying.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
But okay, yeah, that's exactly right. Lyrics can mean different
things to different people because that's what music does, or
sort of evokes emotion in people, and that's sort of
the human nature of the art. The reason Genius was
created was to have the most accurate lyrics. Right, We
consider ourselves the world's largest music knowledge platform because the
(10:46):
community that powers Genius. Genius, the community powered destination, puts
those lyrics there and then adds the discourse, the annotations,
what does this song mean? Where is it written? The metadata,
the credits. That ecosystem is really valuable to the artists
because they have spent a long time creating those lyrics
(11:06):
that are the songs to their lives. And how you
interpret those lyrics as a consumer, it's it's still the consumer.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I'm still up to the.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
But having the most accurate lyrics is paramount and empowers
a greater ecosystem. You know, Genius outside of our brand
partnership business, we power the DSPs and a lot of
other companies in the music business just through our you
know our lyric data and our annotation.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Data, Jackie, Let's get to the business of music and culture.
Brands are always trying to understand what people care about,
what's shifting culturally reading the signals. A really interesting thing
that I think Genius built in the early days when
I was first exposed to Genius is music IQ, which
(11:52):
kind of reads culture through data. I mean that to me,
we're in a world where data is king and queen
and do and earle, it's everything that it can be
the idea of utilizing the data to read culture through
that musical data. The loop that that satisfies is what
(12:13):
the CMO is looking for. What are the signals? This
is the best signal you can get.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, our deepest conversations with brands are the ones that
are rooted in data. You know, the stories that you
can find within lyrics is really remarkable, and how a
brand shows up in music is actually really can be
a marker of their position within culture. Music i Q
is a proprietary data set that allows us to spot
cultural trends, designate emerging artists, which plays a tremendous part
of the artists discovery ecosystem, as well as tell stories
(12:41):
that we think are authentic and credible. We talk a
lot about cmos right and who are making new decisions,
but we also know that there has to be an
outcome involved. Outcomes come when there's credibility and when you
can really sort of marry cultural credibility with impact. And
we know that when people are coming to Genius and
interacting with that conversation around how we partner music IQ
(13:05):
with a story, with the brand narrative, we can create
the outcomes that they're looking for.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Good company will be right back after the.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Break, Jackie.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
When a brand engages with music, there's gigantic opportunity. There's
also risk. I mean, you know, it's no different than
celebrity endorsement. There's risk and there's opportunity. But when a
brand shows up in musical culture the right way, what
does it look like? I mean, could you give a
specific example of brand or brands that have heard the signal,
(13:52):
get the joke, understand what music iq can do for them.
Are there examples of how a brand should show upright?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Brand different? There's moments of agility that we really tried
to take advantage of. I mentioned K pop before BTS
dropped their first album, in three years. Today the genius
charts are going through the roof around this new album
Arirang Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl? How do you
take advantage of those cultural moments where we're seeing a
tremendous amount of increase engagement on the site. So that's
(14:21):
one way we're directing brands. The day of the Super Bowl,
that evening we saw about one hundred and seventy one
percent surge and Bad Bunny views. So how does a
brand sort of come at the intersection of that? And
that story can be said for the Taylor Swifts and
Kendrick Lamar's of the world. But then there's also the
idea around strategic thought leadership that we try to direct brands.
(14:42):
How can you tell the right story at the right
time with the right artists.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
The right brand, the right time, with the right artist.
I'm going to push back on that just for a moment,
because this has been a pet peeve of mine. We
are all searching for the holy grail of the right time,
the right context, the right device, the right person, the
right right, right, right right. One thing that takes off
the table is serendipity. You can't lose sight of serendipity
(15:08):
in marketing and the need for that surprise and delight
something I didn't expect. So I do always push back
when somebody says that, now you do want to strive
to be able to deliver to a brand the right time,
the right person, the right context. And the auto manufacturing business,
they've always spoken of it in the context of in
market for a car? Are you in market for a car?
(15:30):
I just have my first grandchild turning sixteen. I'm in
market for a car. Okay, we just moved to a
new neighborhood. I'm in market for a car. So and
SO is getting their license.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
My lease is up.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Whatever it may be, That context is right. But I
just always want to push back because discovery of a
new artist, discovery of something you hadn't heard before, can
be as exciting and even more exciting.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I couldn't be more. I think when we talk about
a Jill and culture and sort of the nuance around
that new music releases and being a part of what's
happening in music culture is really important, and we're constantly
thinking about how we can help brands connect there. But
there's also some forward thinking planning when it comes to
music It is not an easy medium to work within.
(16:18):
It takes a lot of planning and it takes the
right amount of due diligence to make sure you are
finding the right emerging artists to work with the brands.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I said at Sony I'm pretty sure it was Sony Music,
and they said, Michael, we want to introduce you to
a new artist that we think will blow up and
brands will love. And I sat in somebody's office on
Madison Avenue and they played this recording by this young
lady named Adele, and I thought, oh, interesting, I've had
a couple of those where this is going to break out.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah. And one of the things that we have on
Genius when we go back to music IQ and we
think about the inflection point when we see paige views
rise on a certain artist, so a Bella kat or
Siana Spira who we just had on the platform. These
are artists where we start to see their signals rise
on the platform, we bring them in to create more
content with us there. Also, then we'll make a list
(17:08):
of how do we when we're talking to a brand,
how do we make sure that we're thinking about these
types of artists who are the next right. Not everyone
can cut a check to get Beyonce or to put
a check in front of a major artist, But how
do you get the docies and the Jack Carlows and
Leon Thomas's, which are all artists that have been on
the platform and supported by the Genius platform well before
(17:30):
they've reached sort of like cultural significance.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Jackie, Let's go back, because again, I was fortunate to
be exposed to Genius when it was launched through the founder,
and it began as a lyrics database. But today it's video,
it's storytelling, it's artist conversation, it's cultural commentary. What's the
company becoming? I mean, it started as a lyrics database,
and that was interesting and had a lot of opportunity
(17:55):
and promise, and here you are, just you know, I
kind of detailed some of the the things you have become.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
We are and will always be a utility brand powering
our consumers and the artists. Where we're excited to go
next is to really create that one to one connection
with artists and fans. So today we have three million
artists on the platform and one hundred million consumers just
on Genius dot com. That's a really interesting ratio. So
we go back to thinking about the artist's ecosystem and
(18:23):
how they are closer to their fans than ever, but
don't own that direct connection. We want to start to
really allow them to own that direct connection. So in
the coming months, you'll see Genius coming out with the
new product that will essentially act as an operating system
for artists to become not just the amazing creatives they are,
and we're never going to impede that ability to be creative.
(18:44):
We want them to be focused on their creativity, But
how do we supercharge the business and entrepreneurial side of
their business so they can sell more to our tickets
and sell more merchandise and connect with the fans on
the Genius platform in a way that we think we're
uniquely positioned to do.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
That makes perfect sense. Let me switch gears from when
every song is available everywhere instantly. Access is no longer scarce,
so I can get anything I want, when I want,
how I want. What becomes valuable is everything around the music,
because the music itself is not hard to get, but
the signals, the message, the artists, the platform, the connection
(19:22):
kind of defines music in a different way.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah, I mean yes, I think streaming has really commoditized music.
But I think what we're seeing now is that people
are looking for a little bit more tangible access to music.
How do they experience music, how do they feel and
touch the artists, How do they be closer to that community?
Community drives a lot of culture. Community is at the
heart of what we do.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And you said experience. You know, we're in an economy now,
in a culture where experience matters, in real life matters.
That's another element of this, you know, in this buzz
of retail media networks that are proliferating every which way
but loose everywhere you look. Our partners at Delta Airlines
are doing something that they call experiential media network because
(20:09):
experience matters. Music is very much a part of experiential
in a different way, for sure. But let me pose
this as a question. In this environment that we just
talked about, who has more leverage is at the platform,
the audience, the artists, the record company. I mean, I
guess you shouldn't call them record companies anymore, the record labels,
record labels, and music labels, let's say.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Musically, Yeah, I think it depends on what we're talking
about in terms of the audience. I mean, if we
think about who is the most leverage today, I would
like to say that I think the artists are starting
to take back their leverage. More artists are distributing on
their own via DIY distributors. One of the biggest signals
we're seeing is that the umgs of the world and
all the major record labels are scooping up these DIY
distributors so they can get direct access to this pipeline
(20:54):
of artists. So there's a lot of power I hope
going back to the artist.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But that's a shift because if you go back to
the early days the record labels, the music labels, it
is a.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Shift, but it's also bosch. But maybe like all things,
like we learn an unlearned things. So I think we're
we're learning this new thing. But they're then going to
also then control them again because now they're going to
own this direct to consumer pipeline of the artist. So
it's a very interesting ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
But that's a great segue Jackie into you, because I
said I wasn't going to start with you, but I
want to get to you. You learn and unlearned things
we all do, but across your career, you've touched several
waves of digital media, from early online publishing to creator
economy and them alike. What has changed most about how
(21:39):
media companies grow through your lens? Again, you've been doing
this for a couple of days.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I feel really passionate about this conversation I did. I
started the Wall Street Journal twenty five years ago, call
it found myself at my first startup that then got
purchased by a major media company and catapulted right back
to print media. And then I went over to I
think we have this need to sort of bucket people.
We now have the major platforms will bucket as the
(22:05):
walled gardens, and then we have the connected TV advertisers
or platforms, and then we have sort of niche media. Right,
we have sort of community based, niche interest based media.
A lot of those have started to dissipate. Right, publishers
are no.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Longer what would you categorize in that.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I would categorize those as like what we would call
legacy publishers. Right, we have fashion magazines, and we had
women's lifestyle media properties. These have all sort of like
converged and condensed into conglomerate media companies that are sort
of like a lot of the same. Right, they're not
specific they are sort of generalists. I really believe in
(22:46):
the power of specificity in this market. Personalization and specificity
around passion. So in music, if you can reach someone
at the crux of what they are most passionate about
and how they identify them for us, that's most important.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
For brands, that's the most important it is.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So back to the question of you know what has happened?
I think brands again once again need more choice. They
had a lot of choice. I think they have less
choice today, and I think we want to give them
more choice. Working with a brand like ourselves or any
sort of interest based brand allows them to have a
direct dialogue with that consumer.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Good company will be right back after the break. As
a chief revenue officer, you sit at the intersection of
culture and commerce. Is that attention to manage or does
(23:47):
it necessitate a different way of seeing the business? I
mean culture and commerce another one of the swords in
their content culture, content commerce, because what I.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Also rarely see these days is the word commerce, not
modify culture and commerce, content and commerce, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, you know, I think at the end of the day,
we're strategic thought partners for our partners, So on the
brand partnership side, we're thinking about how we use content
and conversation to reach our users and you know, our
user of music lovers. On the data side of our business,
we're strategic thought partners and how they're leveraging our unique
signals to power their own business as whether that be
a DSP or an LM. The conversation is constantly shifting
(24:28):
depending on what room we're in. With this new product
that we're launching, the conversation will shift once again to
talk about how we want to give artists a little
bit more autonomy and freedom to work on their craft
and leverage our platform in a way that we didn't
think could be leveraged, but we know we're a uniquely
positioned to do so. The conversation is constantly changing.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Let's talk about the future for a moment. Technology is
changing music again. You know, when I think back to
the cover of Time magazine, our newsweek at the turn
of the century and Sean Fennings's picture was on the
cover and we were talking about Napster, and I remember
that moment of downloading my first song illegally for God
(25:10):
it was like crazy. I remember the song that I downloaded,
the first one on Napster was that Chris Burg Chris
de Burgh's Lady in Red. I just thought, oh, that
song ran through my mind. Must be my Melanie Griffith period.
I don't know, but you know, it just ran through
my mind. I said, I want to see if I
can find this song, and sure enough, So that was
(25:32):
the first That was my first Napster experience.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
But here we go.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Technology is changing everything again. AI, new discovery platforms, new
distribution models. What amongst those excites you the most.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah, there's a few fascinating things. I think the discovery
medium for users is just really remarkable and right now,
you know, one of the largest points of discovery for
music is TikTok, but it has a different role. I
think people they identify the artists identified the song, so
it's a different tib of discovery platform. The role that
AI is playing in music right now is first of all,
(26:07):
highly controversial and also something to be really closely watched.
Creativity at its core is a really hard thing to
replicate with technology. So I'm really interested to see where
the conversation goes as we see the discourse around what
part does technology play in creativity a genius. We hold
a pretty firm line that those two things should not intersect.
AI can power business and sort of the operational side
(26:30):
of the business, but we never want to get in
the way of an artist creativity and or falsify that
that appearance.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
So authenticity matters.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
We built a platform built on the back of music
lovers and artists, and we never want to jeopardize that credibility.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Jackie, I want to come back to your journey, and
I want to pose a question when you look back
at your career starting at the Wall Street Journal and
digital media, as we talked about, was there a moment
or even a stretch of time that shape the way
you lead? Was there a particular experience or how you
lead that you could share.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
With our audience.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
There are many you know, growing up in big media
is a really polarizing experience. As a female leader or
I want to be female leader, how you speak up,
how you present yourself, and what that looks like. So
being a female leader and you show media was not easy.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Was that a sword or a shield for you?
Speaker 1 (27:20):
It was a shield for a while, and then I
quickly couldn't make it into a sword when I realized
that self advocacy and hard work could lead to credibility
and sort of a position at the table. So there
have been many parts of my credit to shape my
leadership style. I do believe in being sort of a
servant leader. I don't like to lead from up top
and not always, you know, be able to get my
hands into the smaller jobs. I just don't think that
(27:42):
is a leader of the future. I think those who
rule from up top can quickly find themselves you know nowhere.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
What I say is, if you don't know where you're going,
you're going to end up somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Well, that's exactly right, and it's always been a sort
of a common theme in my ability to build trust
and credibility with teams. But I've also learning and unlearning things.
The things that I thought I needed to learn I
needed to quickly unlearn. Genius is a small but mighty company,
and the things that I learned at my larger media
experience don't play well there.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I've done some homework Jackie in anticipation of this, and
what I've uncovered is that you carry a reputation amongst
your teams and other places that you've been inasmuch as
I've been able to determine that you lead by example.
And that's an important message because we tell this to
our kids, we tell this to employees. Don't do what
I say, I don't do what I do, do what
(28:34):
I say, or the other the reverse of that. But
it's really good when you can say this is how
I do it. You can learn from that.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, I'm incredibly proud of the track record I have
as a leader, and I think being a people leader
is probably the hardest job. It is much easier for
me to be in a CMO meeting than it is
for me to lead a team of a little less
than fifty people today. But coming from a place of
empathy and experience and trust is sort of the backbone
of my leadership philosophy.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Well, you said the last word, which is probably the
most important, which is trust. You have to build trust
amongst your teams, you have to build trust amongst your partners.
You have to build trust amongst everybody you deal with
in this environment. So I think those are all good elements. Jackie.
This gets to be my favorite part of good company,
which is the lightning round and I get to throw
(29:21):
some questions your way that you haven't seen before or
we haven't talked about, and they're random. So let's just
brand you didn't answer it in the context of a mentor.
You answered it in the context of a experience. But
is there a particular mentor, and I'm sure you may
have many, But is there a particular mentor early in
your career or at any point in your career, And
was there a particular bit of advice that person gave you.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, I had incredible leadership at the Journal. I had
incredible female leadership at the Journal, a woman by the
name of Rona Seymour and Nancy McDonald, who really instilled
in me the value of just working hard. Hard work
never goes unnoticed. It's been a core philosophy of how
I operate.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Is there an industry brusword, Jackie, that you wish would
disappear forever?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Authenticity being used and authentically.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I think you already told me this, but I'm going
to ask it again. What was your first concert?
Speaker 4 (30:13):
I think I know.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
That, Yes, my first concert was an SNL taping seeing
Tracy Chapman in nineteen eighty nine. My second concert, which
is The counter to that was poison in my local
hometown theater, which is you know, crazy, yeah, a side
of the times exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Okay, Well, you know your first what's your favorite?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Every year I go see LCD sound System in Brooklyn.
I was a long term Williamsburg, Brooklyn resident. They are
a Brooklyn based fand and one of my favorites.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Well, I'm a Brooklyn boy as well, Jackie, so that
gives us another bond. What's your greatest professional.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Fear being irrelevant?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
That's a good one. I share that with you. If
you could give your younger self, and you're pretty young, Jackie,
but if you could give your younger self one piece
of guidance.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
What would it be?
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Tough?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Advocate earlier, not people please? You know, I said something
together in a panel which is closed mouth. Don't get fed.
If you don't say something, no one will say it
for you.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And I'm going back to putting things in the context
of professional What would you say is your professional superpower?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I would say it's probably to lead with empathy and
to be able to know my audience on addressing room.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I love that. And you know you talked about empathy
as part of trust when you said it earlier, and
the way you build trust is to be empathetic. It's
certainly one of the levers that you have to have. Jackie,
this might have been one of my most fun Good
Company conversations because we're talking about something that's so near
(31:45):
and dear to my heart, which is music. This was
a great conversation and I appreciate you spending the time,
and as you know from genius, and as our audience knows,
words matter, and the words you've spoken today have been
very helpful and inspiring. So Jackie, I want to thank
you for joining me on Good Company.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a
real honor to be in your company.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
Good Company is brought to you by Three C Ventures
and iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to Alexis Borger Pudeo, our
executive producer and head of Content and Talent, and to
Carl Catle, executive producer at iHeart Podcasts. Episodes are produced
and edited by Mary Doo. Thanks for joining us. We'll
see you next time.
Good Company is a production of iHeartRadio. When we talk
about agility and culture and sort of the nuance around
that new music releases and being a part of what's
happening in music culture is really important and we're constantly
thinking about how we can help brands connect there. But
there's also some forward thinking planning. When it comes to music.
It is not an easy medium to work within. It
(00:22):
takes a lot of planning and it takes the right
amount of due diligence to make sure you are finding
the right emerging artists to work with the brand.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm Michael Cassen and this is Good Company. Together we'll
explore the dynamic intersection of media, marketing, entertainment, sports and technology.
I'll be joined by visionaries, pioneers, and yes, even a
couple of disruptors for candid conversations as we break down
how these masters of ingenuity are shaping the future of business,
culture and everything in between. My bet is you'll pick
(00:59):
up a lessen or two along the way. As I
like to say, it's all good. Welcome back to Good Company.
Music has always been a constant, but the way we
engage with it has changed completely. It's no longer just
something you listen to. It's something you search, interpret, share, debate.
(01:20):
In many ways, it's become one of the clearest reflections
of how people see themselves and the world around them.
And that's exactly why this conversation matters. Jackie Vignoni is
the chief revenue officer at Genius, a platform sitting right
in the middle of that evolution. Genius may have started
with lyrics, but today it's part utility, part media platform,
(01:41):
part cultural decoder. Jackie brings a deeply informed perspective to
that role, one shape by years spent building businesses, navigating
multiple areas of digital media, leading high performing teams, and
helping brands engage audiences with intelligence and nuance. A genius
operating at a particularly interesting intersection artists, fans and brands,
(02:05):
all trying to connect in a media environment that keeps
getting more fragmented, more participatory, and more fluid. So today,
Jackie and I are going to talk about what music
reveals about culture, why context and data have become so valuable,
and what it means to build relevance in a world
shape by storytelling, fandom and brand ambition. Jackie, it's great
(02:28):
to have you here today. Let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Thank you for having me, Jackie.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Let me start with music. My fantasy was to be
a singer. I tell a story that I'm going to
start with. I was interviewing Tyler Perry years ago and
I said to him, so, Tyler, how'd you know you
were funny? And he said, well, when I was growing up,
my mother always used to tell me I was funny.
I said, well, that's funny because when I was growing up,
my mother told me I had a good voice, that
(02:53):
I'm not a singer. He goes, you will be before
we get off the stage. And we were in can
for the Can Lyons, and this was many years ago,
and at the end of the interview he said, okay, Michael,
before we get off this stage, you're going to sing,
and he forced me to do it. So I had
that moment. But music, and we're not talking about my
singing ability here.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Today.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
We're talking about the soundtrack of people's lives, and I
want to really dive into that. But I want to
go back. In two thousand and six, Unilever, one of
the largest marketers in the world, asked me to organize
a day for their marketers on new media two thousand
and six, So we're talking about twenty years ago, and
(03:33):
I suggested that we add music to that, and they
were thinking, we want to talk to Facebook and we
want to talk to YouTube, and I said, that's all good,
but you also want to talk to music. And they
said why. I said, well, because music is so much
more important to brands than just a jingle for a commercial.
So that's an opening for me to say, Jackie, I'm
(03:55):
really excited to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Could we start with kind of how we listen to
music now? I mean, I want to get into your background,
I want to get into your journey, but I want
to start with the consumer journey. How do people listen
to music?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Now we listen? We can agree that streaming continues to
dominate music consumption. We're renting music, and that ability to
rent music, there's some sort of disassociation and connection that's
lost in that. Discovery platforms like TikTok or I like
to call them interest based platforms at this point, not
even social platforms have changed the way music discovery is
(04:32):
coming to the forefront. And we think, you know, if
I can maybe tip us into a demographic that is
so important to us. We think about gen Z, this
fifteen to thirty year old today who is consuming forty
percent more music than any other cohort, and crazy when
they think about genres, right, they don't think, oh, I'm
a hip hop fan, I'm a K pop fan. Big
(04:55):
day for K pop today, Actually big day for k
big day for K pop. They think they're more of right,
They're thinking about what is being served to them and
how they engage with what's in served to them. So
in the age of attention, we are trying to figure
out how we get that fans attention to then deeply
connect that artist. And that's hard.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
It's harder to get fans' attention than it.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Is their money.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It sure is. As much as an artist has a
close connection to their fans because of the proliferation of media,
right they can talk to us to their fans, they
actually don't own that. They don't own that connection.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
No, And you know, Jackie, it's so interesting because early
in the turn of the century, I was involved working
with a company called Artist Direct, which you probably remember,
which was that moment where you could create that ability
and the name spoke for itself to communicate directly to
the artist directly to the fan, and it goes to
the basis of social media. But the play of music
(05:47):
in social media is where it gets so interesting because
I remember one of the largest consumer packaged goods companies
in the world, probably more than fifteen years ago, asked
me a question, Michael, do I need to really pay
attention to this? And I'm not kidding when I say
this friendst to this world of social media wasn't called
(06:09):
social media event, but to this world. I said, Well,
in your case, you touch a billion consumers a day.
Today that company touches probably three billion consumers a day.
I said, wouldn't it be interesting if you could have
a conversation with those people? And that was it, So
you know that set the table.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, and you know, back to that connection, fans can
have that conversation. Right. We see this with that Bunny
and Charlie Xcas and all of these artists who have
created these cultural movements by this direct to fan or
direct to consumer conversation. But if that artist wants to
expand upon that connection, they want to sell merge, they
(06:50):
want to go on tour, they actually don't own that connection.
So they now have to go back to those platforms
to buy those connections, and it's a really interesting dynamic
that type play.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Jackie did working a genius change the way you consume music,
the way you listen to music. And you know you've
got kids two boys, I think you know talk about
that and are they in that cohort?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah. So I remember my first show being nineteen eighty nine.
I went to an SNL taping. John Lithgow was the host.
I didn't know who that was at the time, but
my dad took me to SNL to see Tracy Chapman.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
My kid's first concert was Peter Allen, but that was
because it was my taste, not theirs.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And that's exactly right. So I grew up with Tracy
Chapman and the Eagles and Joan Armor trading in long
car rides from New York City to Vermont, and I
think my dad put so much emphasis on lyrics and
I didn't really resonate with me throughout my childhood. I
was an athlete, lots of music in my ears. I
don't know if I ever really knew the lyrics to
a song. So genius really changed my perspective that without
(07:52):
really understanding what a song means, you actually don't know
an artist's story, So.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's so crazy.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
This is an area that's a high interest to make
because I love music, and I consume music all the time,
and music is very much a part of my life.
My youngest son, who's forty five years old, I've force
fed my kids on Ella Fitzgerald and the music that
I loved. The story, it's so perfect for what you
(08:20):
just said. We're driving in the car. I was driving
carpool with my kids and my younger son started singing
the lyrics to a song called Too Darn Hot by
Ella Fitzgerald, and one of his friends in the car said, Adam,
how do you know that song? It was so interesting
that he was almost it was almost accusatory, like, how
(08:40):
do you know the lyrics to that song? I mean,
just as you're saying that the relationship to that artist,
how have you seen that change?
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Fans of music can be passive or leaned in. We
see that, you know, that's a gen z. You know,
streaming music is a passive experience. What we see though,
with this generation is that they also want to have
more of that one to one connection. And this is
where a genius has really played a unique role in
the ecosystem, which is connecting one hundred million consumers to
(09:09):
the artists on our site, and that level of engagement
and discourse around something as passionate and as identifying as
music is really interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Let's go back to lyrics though, you know, words in music.
It's kind of like in business. We talk about rain
makers in the context of business, but I've always focused
on the need for the umbrella carriers, because if all
you have is people who make rain and nobody to
carry the umbrella, then people get wet music and lyrics.
(09:42):
You know, what comes first obviously the inspiration, But lyrics
mean something to the person who writes them, and generally
we've been able to interpret them the way we want
to interpret them what it means to me. You know,
Taylor Swift can tell us these are girls or heartfelt,
you know, friends she lost, but maybe that's not what
it means to me. But a culture that kind of
(10:05):
genius was at the beginning of building a culture around
maybe annotating these lyrics, kind of maybe telling people what
they should think the lyrics mean. You know, I don't know,
it's interesting, and I remember growing up there were songs
that I didn't know the lyrics to But I thought
the lyrics said different words. Then I found out, actually,
that's not all these years what they've been saying.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
But okay, yeah, that's exactly right. Lyrics can mean different
things to different people because that's what music does, or
sort of evokes emotion in people, and that's sort of
the human nature of the art. The reason Genius was
created was to have the most accurate lyrics. Right, We
consider ourselves the world's largest music knowledge platform because the
(10:46):
community that powers Genius. Genius, the community powered destination, puts
those lyrics there and then adds the discourse, the annotations,
what does this song mean? Where is it written? The metadata,
the credits. That ecosystem is really valuable to the artists
because they have spent a long time creating those lyrics
(11:06):
that are the songs to their lives. And how you
interpret those lyrics as a consumer, it's it's still the consumer.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I'm still up to the.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
But having the most accurate lyrics is paramount and empowers
a greater ecosystem. You know, Genius outside of our brand
partnership business, we power the DSPs and a lot of
other companies in the music business just through our you
know our lyric data and our annotation.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Data, Jackie, Let's get to the business of music and culture.
Brands are always trying to understand what people care about,
what's shifting culturally reading the signals. A really interesting thing
that I think Genius built in the early days when
I was first exposed to Genius is music IQ, which
(11:52):
kind of reads culture through data. I mean that to me,
we're in a world where data is king and queen
and do and earle, it's everything that it can be
the idea of utilizing the data to read culture through
that musical data. The loop that that satisfies is what
(12:13):
the CMO is looking for. What are the signals? This
is the best signal you can get.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, our deepest conversations with brands are the ones that
are rooted in data. You know, the stories that you
can find within lyrics is really remarkable, and how a
brand shows up in music is actually really can be
a marker of their position within culture. Music i Q
is a proprietary data set that allows us to spot
cultural trends, designate emerging artists, which plays a tremendous part
of the artists discovery ecosystem, as well as tell stories
(12:41):
that we think are authentic and credible. We talk a
lot about cmos right and who are making new decisions,
but we also know that there has to be an
outcome involved. Outcomes come when there's credibility and when you
can really sort of marry cultural credibility with impact. And
we know that when people are coming to Genius and
interacting with that conversation around how we partner music IQ
(13:05):
with a story, with the brand narrative, we can create
the outcomes that they're looking for.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Good company will be right back after the.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Break, Jackie.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
When a brand engages with music, there's gigantic opportunity. There's
also risk. I mean, you know, it's no different than
celebrity endorsement. There's risk and there's opportunity. But when a
brand shows up in musical culture the right way, what
does it look like? I mean, could you give a
specific example of brand or brands that have heard the signal,
(13:52):
get the joke, understand what music iq can do for them.
Are there examples of how a brand should show upright?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Brand different? There's moments of agility that we really tried
to take advantage of. I mentioned K pop before BTS
dropped their first album, in three years. Today the genius
charts are going through the roof around this new album
Arirang Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl? How do you
take advantage of those cultural moments where we're seeing a
tremendous amount of increase engagement on the site. So that's
(14:21):
one way we're directing brands. The day of the Super Bowl,
that evening we saw about one hundred and seventy one
percent surge and Bad Bunny views. So how does a
brand sort of come at the intersection of that? And
that story can be said for the Taylor Swifts and
Kendrick Lamar's of the world. But then there's also the
idea around strategic thought leadership that we try to direct brands.
(14:42):
How can you tell the right story at the right
time with the right artists.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
The right brand, the right time, with the right artist.
I'm going to push back on that just for a moment,
because this has been a pet peeve of mine. We
are all searching for the holy grail of the right time,
the right context, the right device, the right person, the
right right, right, right right. One thing that takes off
the table is serendipity. You can't lose sight of serendipity
(15:08):
in marketing and the need for that surprise and delight
something I didn't expect. So I do always push back
when somebody says that, now you do want to strive
to be able to deliver to a brand the right time,
the right person, the right context. And the auto manufacturing business,
they've always spoken of it in the context of in
market for a car? Are you in market for a car?
(15:30):
I just have my first grandchild turning sixteen. I'm in
market for a car. Okay, we just moved to a
new neighborhood. I'm in market for a car. So and
SO is getting their license.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
My lease is up.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Whatever it may be, That context is right. But I
just always want to push back because discovery of a
new artist, discovery of something you hadn't heard before, can
be as exciting and even more exciting.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I couldn't be more. I think when we talk about
a Jill and culture and sort of the nuance around
that new music releases and being a part of what's
happening in music culture is really important, and we're constantly
thinking about how we can help brands connect there. But
there's also some forward thinking planning when it comes to
music It is not an easy medium to work within.
(16:18):
It takes a lot of planning and it takes the
right amount of due diligence to make sure you are
finding the right emerging artists to work with the brands.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I said at Sony I'm pretty sure it was Sony Music,
and they said, Michael, we want to introduce you to
a new artist that we think will blow up and
brands will love. And I sat in somebody's office on
Madison Avenue and they played this recording by this young
lady named Adele, and I thought, oh, interesting, I've had
a couple of those where this is going to break out.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah. And one of the things that we have on
Genius when we go back to music IQ and we
think about the inflection point when we see paige views
rise on a certain artist, so a Bella kat or
Siana Spira who we just had on the platform. These
are artists where we start to see their signals rise
on the platform, we bring them in to create more
content with us there. Also, then we'll make a list
(17:08):
of how do we when we're talking to a brand,
how do we make sure that we're thinking about these
types of artists who are the next right. Not everyone
can cut a check to get Beyonce or to put
a check in front of a major artist, But how
do you get the docies and the Jack Carlows and
Leon Thomas's, which are all artists that have been on
the platform and supported by the Genius platform well before
(17:30):
they've reached sort of like cultural significance.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Jackie, Let's go back, because again, I was fortunate to
be exposed to Genius when it was launched through the founder,
and it began as a lyrics database. But today it's video,
it's storytelling, it's artist conversation, it's cultural commentary. What's the
company becoming? I mean, it started as a lyrics database,
and that was interesting and had a lot of opportunity
(17:55):
and promise, and here you are, just you know, I
kind of detailed some of the the things you have become.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
We are and will always be a utility brand powering
our consumers and the artists. Where we're excited to go
next is to really create that one to one connection
with artists and fans. So today we have three million
artists on the platform and one hundred million consumers just
on Genius dot com. That's a really interesting ratio. So
we go back to thinking about the artist's ecosystem and
(18:23):
how they are closer to their fans than ever, but
don't own that direct connection. We want to start to
really allow them to own that direct connection. So in
the coming months, you'll see Genius coming out with the
new product that will essentially act as an operating system
for artists to become not just the amazing creatives they are,
and we're never going to impede that ability to be creative.
(18:44):
We want them to be focused on their creativity, But
how do we supercharge the business and entrepreneurial side of
their business so they can sell more to our tickets
and sell more merchandise and connect with the fans on
the Genius platform in a way that we think we're
uniquely positioned to do.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
That makes perfect sense. Let me switch gears from when
every song is available everywhere instantly. Access is no longer scarce,
so I can get anything I want, when I want,
how I want. What becomes valuable is everything around the music,
because the music itself is not hard to get, but
the signals, the message, the artists, the platform, the connection
(19:22):
kind of defines music in a different way.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah, I mean yes, I think streaming has really commoditized music.
But I think what we're seeing now is that people
are looking for a little bit more tangible access to music.
How do they experience music, how do they feel and
touch the artists, How do they be closer to that community?
Community drives a lot of culture. Community is at the
heart of what we do.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And you said experience. You know, we're in an economy now,
in a culture where experience matters, in real life matters.
That's another element of this, you know, in this buzz
of retail media networks that are proliferating every which way
but loose everywhere you look. Our partners at Delta Airlines
are doing something that they call experiential media network because
(20:09):
experience matters. Music is very much a part of experiential
in a different way, for sure. But let me pose
this as a question. In this environment that we just
talked about, who has more leverage is at the platform,
the audience, the artists, the record company. I mean, I
guess you shouldn't call them record companies anymore, the record labels,
record labels, and music labels, let's say.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Musically, Yeah, I think it depends on what we're talking
about in terms of the audience. I mean, if we
think about who is the most leverage today, I would
like to say that I think the artists are starting
to take back their leverage. More artists are distributing on
their own via DIY distributors. One of the biggest signals
we're seeing is that the umgs of the world and
all the major record labels are scooping up these DIY
distributors so they can get direct access to this pipeline
(20:54):
of artists. So there's a lot of power I hope
going back to the artist.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But that's a shift because if you go back to
the early days the record labels, the music labels, it
is a.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Shift, but it's also bosch. But maybe like all things,
like we learn an unlearned things. So I think we're
we're learning this new thing. But they're then going to
also then control them again because now they're going to
own this direct to consumer pipeline of the artist. So
it's a very interesting ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
But that's a great segue Jackie into you, because I
said I wasn't going to start with you, but I
want to get to you. You learn and unlearned things
we all do, but across your career, you've touched several
waves of digital media, from early online publishing to creator
economy and them alike. What has changed most about how
(21:39):
media companies grow through your lens? Again, you've been doing
this for a couple of days.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I feel really passionate about this conversation I did. I
started the Wall Street Journal twenty five years ago, call
it found myself at my first startup that then got
purchased by a major media company and catapulted right back
to print media. And then I went over to I
think we have this need to sort of bucket people.
We now have the major platforms will bucket as the
(22:05):
walled gardens, and then we have the connected TV advertisers
or platforms, and then we have sort of niche media. Right,
we have sort of community based, niche interest based media.
A lot of those have started to dissipate. Right, publishers
are no.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Longer what would you categorize in that.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
I would categorize those as like what we would call
legacy publishers. Right, we have fashion magazines, and we had
women's lifestyle media properties. These have all sort of like
converged and condensed into conglomerate media companies that are sort
of like a lot of the same. Right, they're not
specific they are sort of generalists. I really believe in
(22:46):
the power of specificity in this market. Personalization and specificity
around passion. So in music, if you can reach someone
at the crux of what they are most passionate about
and how they identify them for us, that's most important.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
For brands, that's the most important it is.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So back to the question of you know what has happened?
I think brands again once again need more choice. They
had a lot of choice. I think they have less
choice today, and I think we want to give them
more choice. Working with a brand like ourselves or any
sort of interest based brand allows them to have a
direct dialogue with that consumer.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
Good company will be right back after the break. As
a chief revenue officer, you sit at the intersection of
culture and commerce. Is that attention to manage or does
(23:47):
it necessitate a different way of seeing the business? I
mean culture and commerce another one of the swords in
their content culture, content commerce, because what I.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Also rarely see these days is the word commerce, not
modify culture and commerce, content and commerce, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, you know, I think at the end of the day,
we're strategic thought partners for our partners, So on the
brand partnership side, we're thinking about how we use content
and conversation to reach our users and you know, our
user of music lovers. On the data side of our business,
we're strategic thought partners and how they're leveraging our unique
signals to power their own business as whether that be
a DSP or an LM. The conversation is constantly shifting
(24:28):
depending on what room we're in. With this new product
that we're launching, the conversation will shift once again to
talk about how we want to give artists a little
bit more autonomy and freedom to work on their craft
and leverage our platform in a way that we didn't
think could be leveraged, but we know we're a uniquely
positioned to do so. The conversation is constantly changing.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Let's talk about the future for a moment. Technology is
changing music again. You know, when I think back to
the cover of Time magazine, our newsweek at the turn
of the century and Sean Fennings's picture was on the
cover and we were talking about Napster, and I remember
that moment of downloading my first song illegally for God
(25:10):
it was like crazy. I remember the song that I downloaded,
the first one on Napster was that Chris Burg Chris
de Burgh's Lady in Red. I just thought, oh, that
song ran through my mind. Must be my Melanie Griffith period.
I don't know, but you know, it just ran through
my mind. I said, I want to see if I
can find this song, and sure enough, So that was
(25:32):
the first That was my first Napster experience.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
But here we go.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Technology is changing everything again. AI, new discovery platforms, new
distribution models. What amongst those excites you the most.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah, there's a few fascinating things. I think the discovery
medium for users is just really remarkable and right now,
you know, one of the largest points of discovery for
music is TikTok, but it has a different role. I
think people they identify the artists identified the song, so
it's a different tib of discovery platform. The role that
AI is playing in music right now is first of all,
(26:07):
highly controversial and also something to be really closely watched.
Creativity at its core is a really hard thing to
replicate with technology. So I'm really interested to see where
the conversation goes as we see the discourse around what
part does technology play in creativity a genius. We hold
a pretty firm line that those two things should not intersect.
AI can power business and sort of the operational side
(26:30):
of the business, but we never want to get in
the way of an artist creativity and or falsify that
that appearance.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
So authenticity matters.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
We built a platform built on the back of music
lovers and artists, and we never want to jeopardize that credibility.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Jackie, I want to come back to your journey, and
I want to pose a question when you look back
at your career starting at the Wall Street Journal and
digital media, as we talked about, was there a moment
or even a stretch of time that shape the way
you lead? Was there a particular experience or how you
lead that you could share.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
With our audience.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
There are many you know, growing up in big media
is a really polarizing experience. As a female leader or
I want to be female leader, how you speak up,
how you present yourself, and what that looks like. So
being a female leader and you show media was not easy.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Was that a sword or a shield for you?
Speaker 1 (27:20):
It was a shield for a while, and then I
quickly couldn't make it into a sword when I realized
that self advocacy and hard work could lead to credibility
and sort of a position at the table. So there
have been many parts of my credit to shape my
leadership style. I do believe in being sort of a
servant leader. I don't like to lead from up top
and not always, you know, be able to get my
hands into the smaller jobs. I just don't think that
(27:42):
is a leader of the future. I think those who
rule from up top can quickly find themselves you know nowhere.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
What I say is, if you don't know where you're going,
you're going to end up somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Well, that's exactly right, and it's always been a sort
of a common theme in my ability to build trust
and credibility with teams. But I've also learning and unlearning things.
The things that I thought I needed to learn I
needed to quickly unlearn. Genius is a small but mighty company,
and the things that I learned at my larger media
experience don't play well there.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I've done some homework Jackie in anticipation of this, and
what I've uncovered is that you carry a reputation amongst
your teams and other places that you've been inasmuch as
I've been able to determine that you lead by example.
And that's an important message because we tell this to
our kids, we tell this to employees. Don't do what
I say, I don't do what I do, do what
(28:34):
I say, or the other the reverse of that. But
it's really good when you can say this is how
I do it. You can learn from that.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, I'm incredibly proud of the track record I have
as a leader, and I think being a people leader
is probably the hardest job. It is much easier for
me to be in a CMO meeting than it is
for me to lead a team of a little less
than fifty people today. But coming from a place of
empathy and experience and trust is sort of the backbone
of my leadership philosophy.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Well, you said the last word, which is probably the
most important, which is trust. You have to build trust
amongst your teams, you have to build trust amongst your partners.
You have to build trust amongst everybody you deal with
in this environment. So I think those are all good elements. Jackie.
This gets to be my favorite part of good company,
which is the lightning round and I get to throw
(29:21):
some questions your way that you haven't seen before or
we haven't talked about, and they're random. So let's just
brand you didn't answer it in the context of a mentor.
You answered it in the context of a experience. But
is there a particular mentor, and I'm sure you may
have many, But is there a particular mentor early in
your career or at any point in your career, And
was there a particular bit of advice that person gave you.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Yeah, I had incredible leadership at the Journal. I had
incredible female leadership at the Journal, a woman by the
name of Rona Seymour and Nancy McDonald, who really instilled
in me the value of just working hard. Hard work
never goes unnoticed. It's been a core philosophy of how
I operate.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Is there an industry brusword, Jackie, that you wish would
disappear forever?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Authenticity being used and authentically.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I think you already told me this, but I'm going
to ask it again. What was your first concert?
Speaker 4 (30:13):
I think I know.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
That, Yes, my first concert was an SNL taping seeing
Tracy Chapman in nineteen eighty nine. My second concert, which
is The counter to that was poison in my local
hometown theater, which is you know, crazy, yeah, a side
of the times exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Okay, Well, you know your first what's your favorite?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Every year I go see LCD sound System in Brooklyn.
I was a long term Williamsburg, Brooklyn resident. They are
a Brooklyn based fand and one of my favorites.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Well, I'm a Brooklyn boy as well, Jackie, so that
gives us another bond. What's your greatest professional.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Fear being irrelevant?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
That's a good one. I share that with you. If
you could give your younger self, and you're pretty young, Jackie,
but if you could give your younger self one piece
of guidance.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
What would it be?
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Tough?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Advocate earlier, not people please? You know, I said something
together in a panel which is closed mouth. Don't get fed.
If you don't say something, no one will say it
for you.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
And I'm going back to putting things in the context
of professional What would you say is your professional superpower?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I would say it's probably to lead with empathy and
to be able to know my audience on addressing room.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I love that. And you know you talked about empathy
as part of trust when you said it earlier, and
the way you build trust is to be empathetic. It's
certainly one of the levers that you have to have. Jackie,
this might have been one of my most fun Good
Company conversations because we're talking about something that's so near
(31:45):
and dear to my heart, which is music. This was
a great conversation and I appreciate you spending the time,
and as you know from genius, and as our audience knows,
words matter, and the words you've spoken today have been
very helpful and inspiring. So Jackie, I want to thank
you for joining me on Good Company.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a
real honor to be in your company.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
Good Company is brought to you by Three C Ventures
and iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to Alexis Borger Pudeo, our
executive producer and head of Content and Talent, and to
Carl Catle, executive producer at iHeart Podcasts. Episodes are produced
and edited by Mary Doo. Thanks for joining us. We'll
see you next time.
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