May 6, 2026 • 37 mins
Don Kurz has lived enough lives for three careers - from championship lacrosse fields to Studio 54 dance floors to Wall Street trading desks to the boardrooms of modern advertising - and in this candid conversation with Michael Kassan, he reflects on the chaos, reinvention, and hard-earned instincts that shaped them all. With the release of his new book, Do the Hustle, Don opens up about resilience, risk, leadership, and why the most valuable lessons rarely come from the wins, but from the moments when everything veers off script.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good Company is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
It's uncomfortable to reinvent yourself because it means you're at
a pivot point. You might have failed at something, you
might have gone through some trauma that causes you to
stop and say I got to change. I think it's
just who I've become and the risks I've taken have
caused me to pivot, perhaps more than a normal person
(00:24):
who starts. But as a fellow entrepreneur, you know you
have to change and pivot periodically or you'll get stale,
or you'll be unsuccessful.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I'm Michael Cassen, and this is Good Company. Together we'll
explore the dynamic intersection of media, marketing, entertainment, sports, and technologies.
I'll be joined by visionaries, pioneers, and yes, even a
couple of disruptors for candid conversations as we break down
how these masters of ingenuity are shaping the future of business,
culture and everything in between. My bet is you'll pick
(01:04):
up a lessen or two along the way. As I
like to say, it's all good. Success stories tend to
get told in straight lines, up into the right one win,
leading cleanly to the next. But the truth if we're
(01:24):
honest about it looks nothing like that. My guest today
has lived a life that feels less like a straight
line and more like a series of collisions between ambition
and reality, success and adversity, instinct and consequence. Don Kurrz
has done a lot in one lifetime. An NCAA Division
one lacrosse champion, a regular on the dance floor at
(01:46):
Studio fifty four, and at one point teaching the hustle,
a senior partner at a major consulting firm, an entrepreneur
who took a company public, a hedge fund founder who
navigated some of the harshest financial shocks of our time.
And today he's the executive board shair of Omelet, one
of the more respected creative agencies in the advertising and
(02:07):
marketing business. Yet his new book, Do the Hustle is
not a victory lap, although he's earned that right. It's
something much more poignant. It's an honest reflection on what
happens when things don't go according to plan and what
you do next. So today we're going to talk about resilience, instinct,
work ethic, and the idea that scars you pick up
(02:30):
along the way may actually be the most valuable part
of the journey. Don, my good friend. It's a pleasure
to welcome you to Good Company.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well, it's wonderful to be here, and thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Don. I want to kind of set the tone for
our conversation. And as I said a moment ago, we've
known each other for many, many years. I think it's
now more than a quarter of a century, and it's
been a wonderful twenty five plus years that we've been
friends and associates. And I was thinking of this before
we say down today. I'm not sure that there's anyone
(03:03):
else that I've ever chatted with, certainly on Good Company,
whose story includes lacrosse championships, Studio fifty four Wall Street.
I mean, you know, the list goes on, and you
and I are going to talk about dancing no matter what,
because we're not leaving this conversation without a little bit
of a back and forth on the dance floor. But
(03:24):
before we get into that, how are you thinking about
this chapter of your life now you're an author, how
are you thinking about this moment?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I'm not sure I'm thinking about it any differently. The
conclusion that I reached about two years ago. To write
a book took me on a bit of a journey
that forced a lot of reflection, some positive, some negative.
But the urge to write this book came when I
realized I had something unique to say. And Michael, you
(03:55):
hit it on the head. This then diagram of Alita
Athletics if you will, Studio fifty four slash Arthur Murray
and dancing, and then the business world. Of course, there
are many people who fit one of those circles, but
I'm not sure how many have that ven diagram that overlaps.
And I felt that was the basis to communicate through
(04:18):
this book.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Well, I agree with you and underscore it because, as
I said, I've had the good fortune of following a
lot of life journeys in my career and people that
I get to interact with, and yours is a unique one,
There's no doubt about that. Why now, in terms of
the book, don and I know you said, you know
this part of the journey was you felt like you
(04:41):
had a story to tell. But writing a book forces
a kind of reflection that most people avoid. Yeah, you know,
it's interesting. I can speak to this personally. People have
said to me for a very long time, Michael, you
should write a book. In my case, it was a
little different because somebody chose to make me a future
character in a book, so it kind of told my
(05:02):
life story through someone else's lens, which I read twice. Yes, well,
there you go. But I've always thought of it in
the context of do you want that reflection, because truly,
when frenemies came out from my perspective and this is
very personal, when I read the galleys, I freaked out
because of course, oh my god, I've exposed my whole life.
(05:23):
And it was an interesting reflection. And then I was
very comfortable with it because I actually felt good about it.
But I'm curious that forcing function of self reflection is
please take it from there.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, you hit the nail on the head. What precipitated
the journey of writing the book was I got a
call from a major business publication that I guess trolls
if you will, linked in profiles and they found my
background interesting and they said, you know what, we'd love
to put you on our publishing platform and work with
(05:58):
you on a book, and then you could be a
contributing author, et cetera. And I said, well, that's interesting.
Let me pursue this. We wrote a book plan and
at the end of the process, I said, this is interesting.
It's well written, but it was not terribly unique or compelling.
And I realized, I have no interest in just putting
the term published author next to my name for the
(06:19):
hell of it if I don't have anything unique to say.
So I said, thank you, but I'm going to pass.
But the bug of a book was instilled. And then
I just i'd say, three four months of detailed note
taking of anything that popped in my mind that I
thought was unique, funny, tragic, compelling, whatever, with note editing,
(06:40):
and in a couple of months I had ten eleven
pages of detailed notes and I saw that thread of
sports to dancing to business and the many ups and
downs of business, and I said, you know what, I
have something unique to say. So I embarked on the
process of writing the book.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
You know, don one of the things that I've always said,
I guess I learned this from my sage grandmother. I'm
certain you've heard the expression. It wasn't unique, but it's
when we've all used it's something like we plan and
God laughs, Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
That's I've heard that growing up. So I'm not sure
it's a Yiddish derived thing.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
But it's general. I think it's a general issue term.
But the sentiment is certainly cross everything. But one of
the things that comes through in the book is that
there wasn't a master plan. You know, I'm curious how
you react to this. I describe myself oft times as
being an opportunist and a capitalist, and what I mean
(07:43):
by that is, I generally think I'm good at identifying
opportunities and then I think I'm pretty good at figuring
out a way to capitalize on those punt So I
put those two words together. But that's not generally something
you can plan for. Because the idea of an opportunity,
I think, is something whether it's looking around the corner
or you know, opportunities presenting themselves, or you're creating opportunities.
(08:07):
But if there's no plan, and I think that's an
important thread in the book, you couldn't have planned to
go from lacrosse to doing the hustle.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
No no, And just to update our grandmother's phrase, Mike Tyson,
I believe said everyone has a plan until you get
punched in the face, and that is the reality. Certainly,
my journey from athletics to dancing wasn't planned, simply because
I had two very bad knee injuries that ended my
lacrosse career. And given I'm not a very big guy,
(08:39):
as you know, my entire game, you know, lacrosse with
speed and the ability to cut and whatever. And once
the two acl injuries knocked me to a more normal pace,
I had no ability to compete at the highest level.
So dance happened to be emerging because there's a thing
(08:59):
called Saturday Night Fever, the movie and the club called
Studio fifty four, and of course those of us who
are old enough remember that whole zeitgeist of disco emerging
in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I was living in New York and Ronnie and I
were already married, and we got to be part of
that scene.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So yeah, I'm sure I've run into you.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I'm sure I ran into you, But there's.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Many things I don't remember fortunately from that ere.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
You know, I have that T shirt that says something like,
if you remember the sixties, you really weren't there. So
I I I love it.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So that was literally fortune or fate or whatever, but
it does illustrate something I try to emphasize in the
book that sometimes the most devastating moments in your life.
And it was devastating to lose my last year of
eligibility because I couldn't play anymore at Hopkins, and my
(09:59):
entire our life was really defined by that up to
that point, an incredibly low point in my life. All
of a sudden, a new chapter opens, this crazy thing
called disco. And because I was a drummer growing up,
and I happen to meet a young lady who is
a dance instructor at a place you can't make this
up called New York Hustle, Inc. I just happened to
(10:20):
fall into it, and being the entrepreneur of the future entrepreneur,
I knew I was a reasonable dancer in New York,
but there were far, far better dancers than me.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I have to ask you to stop for a moment
because we are on audio and our listeners can't see this.
But as you're saying it, I have literally started to
in my head listen to do the hustle. I will,
damn Sun. You can't get it out of your head.
See this. Our audience can't. But I was starting to move.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
And you're moving quite well.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
I will, I will, you and I are going to
have a dance off. You didn't know that was coming well.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
But I was an okay, reasonable dancer in New York.
But I those lessons that my dance partner had showed
me in New York. And when I went to Baltimore,
I was literally the one eyed man in the land
of up line because disco wasn't even emerging. So I
put up flyers. I started giving dance lessons because nobody
else knew anything about this thing disco. So I became
(11:20):
an entrepreneur in my early twenties.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Good company will be right back after the break.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Dawn. As we've talked about, you know, we plan God laughs.
You've had moments when things went really, really right, and
you've also had moments when things didn't go according to plan.
Are there patterns that you see in hindsight, you know
when you think about those periods that gee, I should
have seen that, or that was obvious it was going
to happen, just based on signals or patterns. And do
(12:02):
you think in general people sort of overreact to short
term outcomes, good or bad.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah. I learned an enormous amount and as my mother
always said, Donnie has to learn lessons the hard way,
and she's right.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
She was right.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Makes you rest in peace. So some of the very
difficult periods of my life, you were a good friend
and counselor. During some of my eMac days, which was
the public company, I wanted to take the company private.
You remember the Sarbanes Oxley I do Era, which was
of course precipitated by en Run and WorldCom and all
(12:37):
the other debacles. Companies like eMac, which had been trading well,
became what's called an orphan stock. They don't trade very much,
they're very volatile in price, and it's expensive to be public,
and then with the Sarbanes Oxley accounting rules, it ended
up costing another million and a half dollars just to
(12:58):
be public. And I wanted to take the company private.
Gentlemen that I'm sure you know. Straszelnik was running ZRU
Media and he had approached us about it going private transaction.
I thought it was a good idea and be good
for the shareholders. They'd get a nice premium. But the
board or a majority of the board didn't agree. So
(13:19):
there was a literally a boardroom coop, and I was
out of a company that I effectively was the co
founder of, and it was a very traumatic period and
my ego, pure and simple could not abide that. Instead
of selling stock, helping the transition, getting a good severance
(13:39):
package and moving on, I fought and it ended up
in years of litigation. The company ended up going bankrupt
and I lost, you know, tens and tens of millions
of dollars from that. And it was all ego driven.
Even though I believe I was right in a court
of law and I won lots of litigation, it ended
up in bankruptcy. And that was a real defining moment
(14:01):
for me.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Absolutely. And you know, I've always had a view of
life don and not just business, but in life. The
example I use is a stub toe. I may stub
my toe by kicking it into the wall by accident,
which would be self inflicted, or you may stub your
toe because somebody stepped on your toe, but at the
(14:23):
end of the day, you have a sore toe. I've
always said I don't judge people by the sore toe.
I judge people based on how they deal with the
sword tou how they deal with what, because it can
happen for a host of reasons, but it's what do
you do when you're in the situation. That's the lesson
that I think you can teach very well. It's not
(14:43):
just about resilience, because sure resilience you bounce back. I've
had a few moments in my life where I've gotten
punched in the face in a very public way, So
I certainly, as an individual, understand that. And I look
at it as I say, not always by what circumstance
you're in, but how you deal with it and what's next.
(15:03):
And you know, I'll give you a little bit of
one of the best bits of advice I've ever gotten.
I'm fortunate to have established a friendship over the years
with Barry Diller. Barry inspired me and I think inspired
a generation. In one circumstance when he was bidding against
some the Redstone for paramount and control of Paramount back
(15:24):
whatever thirty forty years ago, and some to Redstone won
and viacom ended up winning to own paramount back then.
The famous press release that Barry Diller issued, and what
I loved about it, having been an English major, it
was five words and three complete grammatically appropriate sentences, which
(15:45):
is not easy to do, and the five words were
they won period, we lost period, next period.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Really I did not know that, and.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
It's inspiring because that's what we're talking about. That was then,
this is now, what's next. That's not about resilience, it's
also about strategy. It's also about forward moving. So I
throw that out to you because I think that's kind
of what you're saying the same way. And I'll give
very extraordinary credit for just a brilliant way to encapsulate
(16:17):
an entire thought and again inspirational at a level that
I can't tell you.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And the humility he showed today that won, we lost,
Let's go. It's such a great summary. I learned that
the very hard way, and what underpins my problem at
the time was I did not like injustice. I couldn't
abide an injustice. And again I'm not trying to sound
(16:45):
some holier than now person, but in that case with eMac,
I just felt it was so inappropriate what happened. This
company shouldn't be public, it should go private. I had
a very good deal with a very good partner lined up,
and I got whacked.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Let's go back to the elements of that. Okay, you've
talked about trusting your instincts. I mean, I know that
from our relationship, and you refer to it as a
gut algorithm. Yes, okay, it's that sixth sense and we
should all pay attention to that. Have you ever ignored
those instincts and immediately regretted it? You know, It's funny.
(17:25):
There are things in life that you do habitually, and
you know sometimes that spidey sixth sense hits you and
you go, I knew I shouldn't have done that, and
you knew it, yes, or I knew I should have
done that. It can cut both ways.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I've learned that your gut is the one creature that
you can always trust who only has your interest at heart. Now,
of course, you have a loving, beautiful wife, Ronnie for
many years. I now am my second marriage, have a
wonderful wife. So I'm not saying we don't trust. But
your gut knows this is what And I'm an analytical guy,
(18:05):
yet my gut is the one who knows.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You were talking about the gut algorithm. I want to
bring this to marketing, okay, because that is the center
of my universe, and certainly with an important part of
your universe. I asked this of programmers in the entertainment
space a few years ago on a main stage at
CS and it can some of the greatest network executives
(18:30):
in history. I'll leave their names out of this, but
I've asked this question frequently, quote unquote, you pick a name,
you're known for your gut, your gut of content, and
what took green light for this television show or that show.
Now that we're in a world where we have so
much information and so much data and so many outside signals,
(18:54):
where do you balance the data with your gut? And
I look at it and say the data And again,
I'm bringing this to marketing, but it's not just marketing.
It's decision making in life. It's every life. I too
rely on my gut. I get a feeling, I generally
go with it, but I'm very cognizant of the fact
(19:16):
that I have to temper my gut with information and data.
And it's the same conversation, not an argument at all,
we have with marketers all the time about data informing
your decisions. You know, we talk about the difference. Now
I'm getting very specific between performance marketing and branding. It's
(19:36):
the same thing. Data brings everything together. I'm going to
turn this into a question, how do you temper your
gut with now data that you can create from outside.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
What I have found is my gut analyzes all the
data that's available. I don't know how it does it,
but it does because, as you know, and marketing is
really at its core and imperfect science. Even all the data,
first party customer data, market data, it's imperfect. Life is
(20:10):
about risk reward. You're toggling constantly, risk reward, probabilities, expected values,
et cetera. And I have found my gut processes at
all somehow, and when I don't listen to it, and
the reason I don't listen to it, like my gut
was telling me, do not do this with the eMac,
(20:32):
do not fight this, take the win because the glowing
press release, I had all these great years of leadership
and I'm going to stay on the board and do
all these other things. Had many headhunter calls to do
lots of fun things, but at that time I subordinated
my guts feelings because I didn't like what its conclusion was.
(20:57):
I wanted to fight the injustice and I ignored the gut.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Well, but that leads me to a good question. And
you know, quote from the book, don you talk about
not fighting the tape? Yes, which is a great phrase,
and I'm sure our listeners understand it. But you know,
why do you think it's so hard for people to
recognize you know, you got to know when to hold
them and know one to fold them. I'm not gonna
(21:24):
sing yet, I say that for the last part of this,
but because if we're going to dance, we need some music. Indeed,
but you know I'll do my best Kenny Rogers. But
how do you respond to that? Why is it so
hard for people to go? You know, you got to
cut and run at some point.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
It's the sun cost fallacy, which of course I never
I'm not the inventor of that. You put so much
into it. Both ego and capital are both that you
don't want to acknowledge. Not you personally, of course, No,
No one doesn't want to not acknowledge the mistake. And
I'm as guilty as the next person. Again, just like
(21:59):
we were talking about marketing data, it's an imperfect science.
Is there a chance this business that you've put all
of your money and your family's money in that you
believed was great is going to turn around. Yes, there's
a chance, maybe it's five or ten percent. Is it
prudent to keep pouring more money in the opportunity cost
of not doing other things, of just learning the lesson
(22:22):
and moving on and living to fight another day. So
it's the some cost fallacy that trips all of us up.
And the more conscious you are of it, the better
off you're going to be.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
It's a great way to look at it. I want
to switch gears a little, Don, and I want to
talk about leadership and culture. You've led good sized organizations,
You've worked inside big organizations. We all know culture and
strategy one eats the other. If you don't have it.
We can go through all the bumper stickers. But one
thing you emphasize is the Wii versus the eye. And
(22:56):
whilst it sounds simple, it's not. Where does that come from?
Because I struggle with that frequently. Naturally, I'm a team
player and I am so I don't say that in
a thou protestis I'm a team player and I like
to play with the team, and I like to have
a jersey that matches the other folks who are going
out on the court with me. And that's my style,
and that's what I like to do. But you're talking
(23:17):
about it not just in words, you're talking about it
in action.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I think team sports, which I grew up with, is
kind of foundational, and I have always believed the superstar
with the big ego, prima Donna person is not no
matter how good they are, they should not be on
your team. Certainly in business, of course you want stars,
(23:42):
but the people who want credit for everything, who kind
of elbow out others who play by their own rules,
I find, particularly in a creative business, that they are
toxic to the culture. And it's just more fun to
me to be part of a team, to succeed, to
celebrate as a team, to commiserate with a team when
(24:02):
you lose. And again I'm not trying to sound falsely humble.
I'm smart, but I'm not that smart. What I am
smart enough to do is find really good people, hire them,
try to create a culture that they thrive in, compensation
systems to motivate them, be able to curate their ideas
(24:23):
with others, and then get out of their way and
let them do their magic. And to me, that's my
leadership style. It's not everyone. And that's worked and it's
just more successful for me and more fun.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
You know, Justin Smith, who is former CEO of Bloomberg
Media and now the co founder with Ben Smith of Semaphore.
I'm proud of those guys. They're doing a great job,
and Semaphore has really caught fire. I interviewed him years
ago and he said, you know, Michael, I'm the CEO
of Bloomberg Media, but my real job is CTO. I said, gee,
I didn't think of you as a tech guy. He says, no, no,
(24:58):
chief Talent officer. The job of a CEO is obviously
the lead, but it's also to make sure you surround
yourself with the right talent. So really I'm in the
talent picking business because if I have a great strategy
or not, it doesn't matter, but it does matter if
I have a team that can execute against that strategy.
And those kind of little nuggets are things that I
(25:19):
have always focused on. And you're kind of saying the
same thing. Indeed, let me bring us down to today.
And you know, for the last many years in your
leadership role at Omelet, what feels different about the advertising
business today? And you know, Omelet is a celebrated creative
agency you know, going back to when I first was
exposed to Omelet, one of the great campaigns I give
(25:41):
you guys credit for was the don't text and drive
I want to get it right. But you led that,
as I recall with at and t at and funny,
she should rest in peace. But Kathy Coglin was the
chief marketing officer then, and Kathy was a very close
friend and partner, and we work together and on your campaign,
I made a promise when we were working together that
(26:03):
I would not text and drive. It was like could
take an oath, Like Okay, I promise I won't. And
I mean, Omelet is famous for many many things, but
that was one that was so important to the world.
And you know, talk about it and talk about what
Omelet or creative agencies were focused on when you got involved.
And has it changed today.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think the core mission, if you will, of a
creative agency remains the same, and perhaps back to the
mad Men era, the same thing, which is to understand
who you're speaking to and have a compelling, memorable message
that drives whatever the behavior you want. Is now. The
way you do that changes with technology and with the times,
(26:49):
but that core requirement remains and how do you stand
out in the crowd. That's the essence of marketing to me,
how do you differentiate in a world of everyone clamoring
for attention and so many brands, so many options to
choose from. So I don't think the business is any
different at its core than it used to be. The
(27:10):
tools you use, and of course AI is foundational right now,
but how do you use it in service of differentiation
and uniqueness if you do it right? And I believe
omelet has wouldn't say crack the code, but we're quite
facile at this of deploying AI coupled with human ingenuity
(27:31):
and creativity to do better work, faster and more cost effectively.
So I don't see the core business having changed. I
see the tools and the technology and the types of
people you hire might have evolved, but the core mission
is the same.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Well that makes good sense for sure, don and I
agree with you the means in the end, we may
be on the journey to the same end, but the
means are different, yes, And the end is generally from
a marketing perspective, we're looking to help the clients sell
the goods or services or products or you know, whatever
they're selling and that's the end.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I mean, it ain't that complicated.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, that's hasn't changed. You know, whether it's working on
behalf of a movie company. What's your job put uses
in seats when the movie's open? That's it. That part
hasn't changed at least now we still have to get
from you know, from hitherto Yon. You've reinvented yourself multiple times.
Does that get easier or does it just get more familiar?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I think it gets more familiar, and it's not by
design or plan. It's uncomfortable to reinvent yourself because it
means you're at a pivot point. You might have failed
at something, you might have gone through some trauma that
causes you to stop and say I got a change.
I think it's just who I've become and the risks
(28:53):
I've taken have caused me to pivot, perhaps more than
a normal person who starts. But it is as a
fellow entrepreneur, you know you have to change and pivot
periodically or you'll get stale, or you'll be unsuccessful.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Good company will be right back after the break.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
So before I bring us back to the hustle and
create a new fun opportunity for you, and I don't.
When somebody reads through the hustle and they have the
opportunity to take away at least one idea, what would
you want that idea to be?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Well, the title of my first chapter and Forgive Me
Here is called you Can't Will an erection, And until
my wife said she was going to divorce me, that
was going to be the title of the book.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
You know, I would have voted for that.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
It was a phrase I didn't coin. But I at
Johns Hopkins we had a gut course. Do you know
what a gut course is? No? Okay, Well, gut courses
for athletes that are generally you show up and you
can get a good grade. Hopkins didn't have many of them,
but one of them was a course called Biosocial Aspects
(30:18):
of Human Sexuality.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
UCLA had a class like that. It was called the
History of Jazz. So I learned a lot about jazz exactly.
Maybe it was because we were in California. We would
call the Mickey Mouse classes.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, but a transgender person, a decorated Navy officer, came
and gave a lecture and it was a very profound,
inspiring lecture. And this woman who had been a man
talked about living a lie and at some point you
(30:53):
have to be authentic and true to yourself to have passion.
Over time, you have to be again true to yourself, authentic,
and that caused this person to transition into a much
happier life. One day she realized you can't will an
erection and she decided to get divorced and transition, which
(31:17):
back in the seventies was unique absolutely to do, and
that stuck with me. And be authentic and be passionate
at whatever you do. It was not new phrases, but
it's what I've really believed and learned, and that underscores
(31:39):
everything in the book that when you drift from that
and you're no longer passionate about something, it's time to
exit and move on. Life's too short.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Well that's a great lesson done. Let me lighten us
up because that's a profound and a serious note. So
I will tell you this, don I'll tell our audience
this as well. I was sitting at the network upfronts
years ago. I was sitting next to Irwin Gottlieb and
Peter Trderesi, and it was the year in the ABC
Upfront that Dancing with the Stars had become a breakout
(32:11):
hit in a summer replacement, and then they were bringing
it on to the regular schedule and it's still there,
so it obviously was great. At the time, Steve McPherson
was the head of ABC network. You know, usually the
head of the network will stand up and tell you
why their programming is better than the other guys, our
research is better than the other guys. That year, Steve
McPherson said he was going to do it differently. He
(32:33):
took lessons for months and got on the stage and
his pole performance was him dancing on Lincoln Center stage
and dancing with a car, and that was his upfront
presentation and it was brilliant. And I turned to Irwin
and Peter, who were sitting on either side of me,
and I said, there's a lot of things you guys
can do that I can't do, but I could do that. Wow.
(32:56):
My fantasy is to end up having a dance off
in the advertising industry, okay. And I got a little
close to that because for Ronnie's in my fiftieth anniversary
two years ago, we had a party and the party
thing was Dancing with the Castles and we had a
dance contest. Wow. Ronnie had a partner. I had a partner,
(33:18):
and we had a dance contest good for you, and
we let our grandchildren vote.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Uh oh.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
So my fantasy, don maybe you and I get on
a stage and we have a dance off. Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
We have to make sure there's a proper wager.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I will tell you that in the era of my
children growing up and going to lots of bar mitzvahs. Okay, yes,
we have three kids and close in age, so we
were on the bar Mitzvah circuit many many, many many
years ago, and I was given a nickname by my
kids friends. And I've never told this out loud. I'm
known as tweakle Toes in this wow in the bar
(33:53):
Mitsvah circuit on the west side of La This is
a widely viewed podcast.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
You've disclosed it.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
That's it. I'm going to throw some questions at you
that I like to talk about from the kind of
lightning round. Sure, what was the best night you ever
had at Studio fifty four and can you actually talk
about it?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
The best night was when I got into the VIP room,
which was downstairs, and you.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
May have to edit this out on go ahead, keep going.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I witnessed some famous folks which will not be disclosed
here because they can't defend themselves or deny it doing.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
What people did back.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Then, various drugs and sexual acts right out in the open.
And you know, I wasn't some naive kid. I'm a
kid born in Queens, so I've seen stuff. But that
was fairly profound. And of course all of the other
(34:53):
stuff it's Duo fifty four of the dancing and the
partying and all the stars that you witnessed were great.
But that witnessing of those things in the VIP room
where was like, Wow, I'm not in Kansas anymore.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
No, you're definitely not in Kansas in the VIP room
at Studio fifty four. Don what's something that you're still
trying to get better at?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I think still not overly caring what other people think
and judging me. That's something I've worked on my whole life,
and I'm far better at it than I used to be.
But there's a book, and I mentioned this in my
book called the Four Questions. It says whatever anyone says
(35:37):
is a reflection of them and their issues, not you
so be immune to the opinions of others and you'll
live a much happier life. And I've totally subscribe to
that and I've gotten much better at it. But it's
still something that if somebody doesn't feel I've done the
right thing or judges me in a negative way, it
still bothers me. And it shouldn't because I can't control that.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Well, Don, I'm going to end there, and I'm going
to say this, it's been fun doing the hustle with you,
and I've still been moving and I've got that beat
in my mind. Now it's going to stick with me.
The Hues Corporation is making its way back into that.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
They're not exactly the Rolling Stones in terms of musical history,
but you and I know they were very special.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
They were very special. Don Kurz, I want to thank
you for joining Good Company today. I enjoyed this conversation immensely.
I could have kept going for hours, and I'm certain
our listeners will feel the same.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast, Michael,
and it's always wonderful to chat with you.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Good Company is brought to you by Breese Ventures. And
iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to Alexis Borger Prudeaux, our executive
producer and head of Content and Talent into Carl Catle,
executive producer at iHeart Podcasts. Episodes are produced and edited
by Mary Doo. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you
next time.
Good Company is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
It's uncomfortable to reinvent yourself because it means you're at
a pivot point. You might have failed at something, you
might have gone through some trauma that causes you to
stop and say I got to change. I think it's
just who I've become and the risks I've taken have
caused me to pivot, perhaps more than a normal person
(00:24):
who starts. But as a fellow entrepreneur, you know you
have to change and pivot periodically or you'll get stale,
or you'll be unsuccessful.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I'm Michael Cassen, and this is Good Company. Together we'll
explore the dynamic intersection of media, marketing, entertainment, sports, and technologies.
I'll be joined by visionaries, pioneers, and yes, even a
couple of disruptors for candid conversations as we break down
how these masters of ingenuity are shaping the future of business,
culture and everything in between. My bet is you'll pick
(01:04):
up a lessen or two along the way. As I
like to say, it's all good. Success stories tend to
get told in straight lines, up into the right one win,
leading cleanly to the next. But the truth if we're
(01:24):
honest about it looks nothing like that. My guest today
has lived a life that feels less like a straight
line and more like a series of collisions between ambition
and reality, success and adversity, instinct and consequence. Don Kurrz
has done a lot in one lifetime. An NCAA Division
one lacrosse champion, a regular on the dance floor at
(01:46):
Studio fifty four, and at one point teaching the hustle,
a senior partner at a major consulting firm, an entrepreneur
who took a company public, a hedge fund founder who
navigated some of the harshest financial shocks of our time.
And today he's the executive board shair of Omelet, one
of the more respected creative agencies in the advertising and
(02:07):
marketing business. Yet his new book, Do the Hustle is
not a victory lap, although he's earned that right. It's
something much more poignant. It's an honest reflection on what
happens when things don't go according to plan and what
you do next. So today we're going to talk about resilience, instinct,
work ethic, and the idea that scars you pick up
(02:30):
along the way may actually be the most valuable part
of the journey. Don, my good friend. It's a pleasure
to welcome you to Good Company.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Well, it's wonderful to be here, and thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Don. I want to kind of set the tone for
our conversation. And as I said a moment ago, we've
known each other for many, many years. I think it's
now more than a quarter of a century, and it's
been a wonderful twenty five plus years that we've been
friends and associates. And I was thinking of this before
we say down today. I'm not sure that there's anyone
(03:03):
else that I've ever chatted with, certainly on Good Company,
whose story includes lacrosse championships, Studio fifty four Wall Street.
I mean, you know, the list goes on, and you
and I are going to talk about dancing no matter what,
because we're not leaving this conversation without a little bit
of a back and forth on the dance floor. But
(03:24):
before we get into that, how are you thinking about
this chapter of your life now you're an author, how
are you thinking about this moment?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
I'm not sure I'm thinking about it any differently. The
conclusion that I reached about two years ago. To write
a book took me on a bit of a journey
that forced a lot of reflection, some positive, some negative.
But the urge to write this book came when I
realized I had something unique to say. And Michael, you
(03:55):
hit it on the head. This then diagram of Alita
Athletics if you will, Studio fifty four slash Arthur Murray
and dancing, and then the business world. Of course, there
are many people who fit one of those circles, but
I'm not sure how many have that ven diagram that overlaps.
And I felt that was the basis to communicate through
(04:18):
this book.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Well, I agree with you and underscore it because, as
I said, I've had the good fortune of following a
lot of life journeys in my career and people that
I get to interact with, and yours is a unique one,
There's no doubt about that. Why now, in terms of
the book, don and I know you said, you know
this part of the journey was you felt like you
(04:41):
had a story to tell. But writing a book forces
a kind of reflection that most people avoid. Yeah, you know,
it's interesting. I can speak to this personally. People have
said to me for a very long time, Michael, you
should write a book. In my case, it was a
little different because somebody chose to make me a future
character in a book, so it kind of told my
(05:02):
life story through someone else's lens, which I read twice. Yes, well,
there you go. But I've always thought of it in
the context of do you want that reflection, because truly,
when frenemies came out from my perspective and this is
very personal, when I read the galleys, I freaked out
because of course, oh my god, I've exposed my whole life.
(05:23):
And it was an interesting reflection. And then I was
very comfortable with it because I actually felt good about it.
But I'm curious that forcing function of self reflection is
please take it from there.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, you hit the nail on the head. What precipitated
the journey of writing the book was I got a
call from a major business publication that I guess trolls
if you will, linked in profiles and they found my
background interesting and they said, you know what, we'd love
to put you on our publishing platform and work with
(05:58):
you on a book, and then you could be a
contributing author, et cetera. And I said, well, that's interesting.
Let me pursue this. We wrote a book plan and
at the end of the process, I said, this is interesting.
It's well written, but it was not terribly unique or compelling.
And I realized, I have no interest in just putting
the term published author next to my name for the
(06:19):
hell of it if I don't have anything unique to say.
So I said, thank you, but I'm going to pass.
But the bug of a book was instilled. And then
I just i'd say, three four months of detailed note
taking of anything that popped in my mind that I
thought was unique, funny, tragic, compelling, whatever, with note editing,
(06:40):
and in a couple of months I had ten eleven
pages of detailed notes and I saw that thread of
sports to dancing to business and the many ups and
downs of business, and I said, you know what, I
have something unique to say. So I embarked on the
process of writing the book.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
You know, don one of the things that I've always said,
I guess I learned this from my sage grandmother. I'm
certain you've heard the expression. It wasn't unique, but it's
when we've all used it's something like we plan and
God laughs, Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
That's I've heard that growing up. So I'm not sure
it's a Yiddish derived thing.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
But it's general. I think it's a general issue term.
But the sentiment is certainly cross everything. But one of
the things that comes through in the book is that
there wasn't a master plan. You know, I'm curious how
you react to this. I describe myself oft times as
being an opportunist and a capitalist, and what I mean
(07:43):
by that is, I generally think I'm good at identifying
opportunities and then I think I'm pretty good at figuring
out a way to capitalize on those punt So I
put those two words together. But that's not generally something
you can plan for. Because the idea of an opportunity,
I think, is something whether it's looking around the corner
or you know, opportunities presenting themselves, or you're creating opportunities.
(08:07):
But if there's no plan, and I think that's an
important thread in the book, you couldn't have planned to
go from lacrosse to doing the hustle.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
No no, And just to update our grandmother's phrase, Mike Tyson,
I believe said everyone has a plan until you get
punched in the face, and that is the reality. Certainly,
my journey from athletics to dancing wasn't planned, simply because
I had two very bad knee injuries that ended my
lacrosse career. And given I'm not a very big guy,
(08:39):
as you know, my entire game, you know, lacrosse with
speed and the ability to cut and whatever. And once
the two acl injuries knocked me to a more normal pace,
I had no ability to compete at the highest level.
So dance happened to be emerging because there's a thing
(08:59):
called Saturday Night Fever, the movie and the club called
Studio fifty four, and of course those of us who
are old enough remember that whole zeitgeist of disco emerging
in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I was living in New York and Ronnie and I
were already married, and we got to be part of
that scene.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So yeah, I'm sure I've run into you.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
I'm sure I ran into you, But there's.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Many things I don't remember fortunately from that ere.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
You know, I have that T shirt that says something like,
if you remember the sixties, you really weren't there. So
I I I love it.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
So that was literally fortune or fate or whatever, but
it does illustrate something I try to emphasize in the
book that sometimes the most devastating moments in your life.
And it was devastating to lose my last year of
eligibility because I couldn't play anymore at Hopkins, and my
(09:59):
entire our life was really defined by that up to
that point, an incredibly low point in my life. All
of a sudden, a new chapter opens, this crazy thing
called disco. And because I was a drummer growing up,
and I happen to meet a young lady who is
a dance instructor at a place you can't make this
up called New York Hustle, Inc. I just happened to
(10:20):
fall into it, and being the entrepreneur of the future entrepreneur,
I knew I was a reasonable dancer in New York,
but there were far, far better dancers than me.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I have to ask you to stop for a moment
because we are on audio and our listeners can't see this.
But as you're saying it, I have literally started to
in my head listen to do the hustle. I will,
damn Sun. You can't get it out of your head.
See this. Our audience can't. But I was starting to move.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
And you're moving quite well.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
I will, I will, you and I are going to
have a dance off. You didn't know that was coming well.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
But I was an okay, reasonable dancer in New York.
But I those lessons that my dance partner had showed
me in New York. And when I went to Baltimore,
I was literally the one eyed man in the land
of up line because disco wasn't even emerging. So I
put up flyers. I started giving dance lessons because nobody
else knew anything about this thing disco. So I became
(11:20):
an entrepreneur in my early twenties.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
Good company will be right back after the break.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Dawn. As we've talked about, you know, we plan God laughs.
You've had moments when things went really, really right, and
you've also had moments when things didn't go according to plan.
Are there patterns that you see in hindsight, you know
when you think about those periods that gee, I should
have seen that, or that was obvious it was going
to happen, just based on signals or patterns. And do
(12:02):
you think in general people sort of overreact to short
term outcomes, good or bad.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah. I learned an enormous amount and as my mother
always said, Donnie has to learn lessons the hard way,
and she's right.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
She was right.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Makes you rest in peace. So some of the very
difficult periods of my life, you were a good friend
and counselor. During some of my eMac days, which was
the public company, I wanted to take the company private.
You remember the Sarbanes Oxley I do Era, which was
of course precipitated by en Run and WorldCom and all
(12:37):
the other debacles. Companies like eMac, which had been trading well,
became what's called an orphan stock. They don't trade very much,
they're very volatile in price, and it's expensive to be public,
and then with the Sarbanes Oxley accounting rules, it ended
up costing another million and a half dollars just to
(12:58):
be public. And I wanted to take the company private.
Gentlemen that I'm sure you know. Straszelnik was running ZRU
Media and he had approached us about it going private transaction.
I thought it was a good idea and be good
for the shareholders. They'd get a nice premium. But the
board or a majority of the board didn't agree. So
(13:19):
there was a literally a boardroom coop, and I was
out of a company that I effectively was the co
founder of, and it was a very traumatic period and
my ego, pure and simple could not abide that. Instead
of selling stock, helping the transition, getting a good severance
(13:39):
package and moving on, I fought and it ended up
in years of litigation. The company ended up going bankrupt
and I lost, you know, tens and tens of millions
of dollars from that. And it was all ego driven.
Even though I believe I was right in a court
of law and I won lots of litigation, it ended
up in bankruptcy. And that was a real defining moment
(14:01):
for me.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Absolutely. And you know, I've always had a view of
life don and not just business, but in life. The
example I use is a stub toe. I may stub
my toe by kicking it into the wall by accident,
which would be self inflicted, or you may stub your
toe because somebody stepped on your toe, but at the
(14:23):
end of the day, you have a sore toe. I've
always said I don't judge people by the sore toe.
I judge people based on how they deal with the
sword tou how they deal with what, because it can
happen for a host of reasons, but it's what do
you do when you're in the situation. That's the lesson
that I think you can teach very well. It's not
(14:43):
just about resilience, because sure resilience you bounce back. I've
had a few moments in my life where I've gotten
punched in the face in a very public way, So
I certainly, as an individual, understand that. And I look
at it as I say, not always by what circumstance
you're in, but how you deal with it and what's next.
(15:03):
And you know, I'll give you a little bit of
one of the best bits of advice I've ever gotten.
I'm fortunate to have established a friendship over the years
with Barry Diller. Barry inspired me and I think inspired
a generation. In one circumstance when he was bidding against
some the Redstone for paramount and control of Paramount back
(15:24):
whatever thirty forty years ago, and some to Redstone won
and viacom ended up winning to own paramount back then.
The famous press release that Barry Diller issued, and what
I loved about it, having been an English major, it
was five words and three complete grammatically appropriate sentences, which
(15:45):
is not easy to do, and the five words were
they won period, we lost period, next period.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Really I did not know that, and.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
It's inspiring because that's what we're talking about. That was then,
this is now, what's next. That's not about resilience, it's
also about strategy. It's also about forward moving. So I
throw that out to you because I think that's kind
of what you're saying the same way. And I'll give
very extraordinary credit for just a brilliant way to encapsulate
(16:17):
an entire thought and again inspirational at a level that
I can't tell you.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And the humility he showed today that won, we lost,
Let's go. It's such a great summary. I learned that
the very hard way, and what underpins my problem at
the time was I did not like injustice. I couldn't
abide an injustice. And again I'm not trying to sound
(16:45):
some holier than now person, but in that case with eMac,
I just felt it was so inappropriate what happened. This
company shouldn't be public, it should go private. I had
a very good deal with a very good partner lined up,
and I got whacked.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Let's go back to the elements of that. Okay, you've
talked about trusting your instincts. I mean, I know that
from our relationship, and you refer to it as a
gut algorithm. Yes, okay, it's that sixth sense and we
should all pay attention to that. Have you ever ignored
those instincts and immediately regretted it? You know, It's funny.
(17:25):
There are things in life that you do habitually, and
you know sometimes that spidey sixth sense hits you and
you go, I knew I shouldn't have done that, and
you knew it, yes, or I knew I should have
done that. It can cut both ways.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I've learned that your gut is the one creature that
you can always trust who only has your interest at heart. Now,
of course, you have a loving, beautiful wife, Ronnie for
many years. I now am my second marriage, have a
wonderful wife. So I'm not saying we don't trust. But
your gut knows this is what And I'm an analytical guy,
(18:05):
yet my gut is the one who knows.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You were talking about the gut algorithm. I want to
bring this to marketing, okay, because that is the center
of my universe, and certainly with an important part of
your universe. I asked this of programmers in the entertainment
space a few years ago on a main stage at
CS and it can some of the greatest network executives
(18:30):
in history. I'll leave their names out of this, but
I've asked this question frequently, quote unquote, you pick a name,
you're known for your gut, your gut of content, and
what took green light for this television show or that show.
Now that we're in a world where we have so
much information and so much data and so many outside signals,
(18:54):
where do you balance the data with your gut? And
I look at it and say the data And again,
I'm bringing this to marketing, but it's not just marketing.
It's decision making in life. It's every life. I too
rely on my gut. I get a feeling, I generally
go with it, but I'm very cognizant of the fact
(19:16):
that I have to temper my gut with information and data.
And it's the same conversation, not an argument at all,
we have with marketers all the time about data informing
your decisions. You know, we talk about the difference. Now
I'm getting very specific between performance marketing and branding. It's
(19:36):
the same thing. Data brings everything together. I'm going to
turn this into a question, how do you temper your
gut with now data that you can create from outside.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
What I have found is my gut analyzes all the
data that's available. I don't know how it does it,
but it does because, as you know, and marketing is
really at its core and imperfect science. Even all the data,
first party customer data, market data, it's imperfect. Life is
(20:10):
about risk reward. You're toggling constantly, risk reward, probabilities, expected values,
et cetera. And I have found my gut processes at
all somehow, and when I don't listen to it, and
the reason I don't listen to it, like my gut
was telling me, do not do this with the eMac,
(20:32):
do not fight this, take the win because the glowing
press release, I had all these great years of leadership
and I'm going to stay on the board and do
all these other things. Had many headhunter calls to do
lots of fun things, but at that time I subordinated
my guts feelings because I didn't like what its conclusion was.
(20:57):
I wanted to fight the injustice and I ignored the gut.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Well, but that leads me to a good question. And
you know, quote from the book, don you talk about
not fighting the tape? Yes, which is a great phrase,
and I'm sure our listeners understand it. But you know,
why do you think it's so hard for people to
recognize you know, you got to know when to hold
them and know one to fold them. I'm not gonna
(21:24):
sing yet, I say that for the last part of this,
but because if we're going to dance, we need some music. Indeed,
but you know I'll do my best Kenny Rogers. But
how do you respond to that? Why is it so
hard for people to go? You know, you got to
cut and run at some point.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
It's the sun cost fallacy, which of course I never
I'm not the inventor of that. You put so much
into it. Both ego and capital are both that you
don't want to acknowledge. Not you personally, of course, No,
No one doesn't want to not acknowledge the mistake. And
I'm as guilty as the next person. Again, just like
(21:59):
we were talking about marketing data, it's an imperfect science.
Is there a chance this business that you've put all
of your money and your family's money in that you
believed was great is going to turn around. Yes, there's
a chance, maybe it's five or ten percent. Is it
prudent to keep pouring more money in the opportunity cost
of not doing other things, of just learning the lesson
(22:22):
and moving on and living to fight another day. So
it's the some cost fallacy that trips all of us up.
And the more conscious you are of it, the better
off you're going to be.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
It's a great way to look at it. I want
to switch gears a little, Don, and I want to
talk about leadership and culture. You've led good sized organizations,
You've worked inside big organizations. We all know culture and
strategy one eats the other. If you don't have it.
We can go through all the bumper stickers. But one
thing you emphasize is the Wii versus the eye. And
(22:56):
whilst it sounds simple, it's not. Where does that come from?
Because I struggle with that frequently. Naturally, I'm a team
player and I am so I don't say that in
a thou protestis I'm a team player and I like
to play with the team, and I like to have
a jersey that matches the other folks who are going
out on the court with me. And that's my style,
and that's what I like to do. But you're talking
(23:17):
about it not just in words, you're talking about it
in action.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I think team sports, which I grew up with, is
kind of foundational, and I have always believed the superstar
with the big ego, prima Donna person is not no
matter how good they are, they should not be on
your team. Certainly in business, of course you want stars,
(23:42):
but the people who want credit for everything, who kind
of elbow out others who play by their own rules,
I find, particularly in a creative business, that they are
toxic to the culture. And it's just more fun to
me to be part of a team, to succeed, to
celebrate as a team, to commiserate with a team when
(24:02):
you lose. And again I'm not trying to sound falsely humble.
I'm smart, but I'm not that smart. What I am
smart enough to do is find really good people, hire them,
try to create a culture that they thrive in, compensation
systems to motivate them, be able to curate their ideas
(24:23):
with others, and then get out of their way and
let them do their magic. And to me, that's my
leadership style. It's not everyone. And that's worked and it's
just more successful for me and more fun.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
You know, Justin Smith, who is former CEO of Bloomberg
Media and now the co founder with Ben Smith of Semaphore.
I'm proud of those guys. They're doing a great job,
and Semaphore has really caught fire. I interviewed him years
ago and he said, you know, Michael, I'm the CEO
of Bloomberg Media, but my real job is CTO. I said, gee,
I didn't think of you as a tech guy. He says, no, no,
(24:58):
chief Talent officer. The job of a CEO is obviously
the lead, but it's also to make sure you surround
yourself with the right talent. So really I'm in the
talent picking business because if I have a great strategy
or not, it doesn't matter, but it does matter if
I have a team that can execute against that strategy.
And those kind of little nuggets are things that I
(25:19):
have always focused on. And you're kind of saying the
same thing. Indeed, let me bring us down to today.
And you know, for the last many years in your
leadership role at Omelet, what feels different about the advertising
business today? And you know, Omelet is a celebrated creative
agency you know, going back to when I first was
exposed to Omelet, one of the great campaigns I give
(25:41):
you guys credit for was the don't text and drive
I want to get it right. But you led that,
as I recall with at and t at and funny,
she should rest in peace. But Kathy Coglin was the
chief marketing officer then, and Kathy was a very close
friend and partner, and we work together and on your campaign,
I made a promise when we were working together that
(26:03):
I would not text and drive. It was like could
take an oath, Like Okay, I promise I won't. And
I mean, Omelet is famous for many many things, but
that was one that was so important to the world.
And you know, talk about it and talk about what
Omelet or creative agencies were focused on when you got involved.
And has it changed today.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think the core mission, if you will, of a
creative agency remains the same, and perhaps back to the
mad Men era, the same thing, which is to understand
who you're speaking to and have a compelling, memorable message
that drives whatever the behavior you want. Is now. The
way you do that changes with technology and with the times,
(26:49):
but that core requirement remains and how do you stand
out in the crowd. That's the essence of marketing to me,
how do you differentiate in a world of everyone clamoring
for attention and so many brands, so many options to
choose from. So I don't think the business is any
different at its core than it used to be. The
(27:10):
tools you use, and of course AI is foundational right now,
but how do you use it in service of differentiation
and uniqueness if you do it right? And I believe
omelet has wouldn't say crack the code, but we're quite
facile at this of deploying AI coupled with human ingenuity
(27:31):
and creativity to do better work, faster and more cost effectively.
So I don't see the core business having changed. I
see the tools and the technology and the types of
people you hire might have evolved, but the core mission
is the same.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Well that makes good sense for sure, don and I
agree with you the means in the end, we may
be on the journey to the same end, but the
means are different, yes, And the end is generally from
a marketing perspective, we're looking to help the clients sell
the goods or services or products or you know, whatever
they're selling and that's the end.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I mean, it ain't that complicated.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, that's hasn't changed. You know, whether it's working on
behalf of a movie company. What's your job put uses
in seats when the movie's open? That's it. That part
hasn't changed at least now we still have to get
from you know, from hitherto Yon. You've reinvented yourself multiple times.
Does that get easier or does it just get more familiar?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I think it gets more familiar, and it's not by
design or plan. It's uncomfortable to reinvent yourself because it
means you're at a pivot point. You might have failed
at something, you might have gone through some trauma that
causes you to stop and say I got a change.
I think it's just who I've become and the risks
(28:53):
I've taken have caused me to pivot, perhaps more than
a normal person who starts. But it is as a
fellow entrepreneur, you know you have to change and pivot
periodically or you'll get stale, or you'll be unsuccessful.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Good company will be right back after the break.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
So before I bring us back to the hustle and
create a new fun opportunity for you, and I don't.
When somebody reads through the hustle and they have the
opportunity to take away at least one idea, what would
you want that idea to be?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Well, the title of my first chapter and Forgive Me
Here is called you Can't Will an erection, And until
my wife said she was going to divorce me, that
was going to be the title of the book.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
You know, I would have voted for that.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
It was a phrase I didn't coin. But I at
Johns Hopkins we had a gut course. Do you know
what a gut course is? No? Okay, Well, gut courses
for athletes that are generally you show up and you
can get a good grade. Hopkins didn't have many of them,
but one of them was a course called Biosocial Aspects
(30:18):
of Human Sexuality.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
UCLA had a class like that. It was called the
History of Jazz. So I learned a lot about jazz exactly.
Maybe it was because we were in California. We would
call the Mickey Mouse classes.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, but a transgender person, a decorated Navy officer, came
and gave a lecture and it was a very profound,
inspiring lecture. And this woman who had been a man
talked about living a lie and at some point you
(30:53):
have to be authentic and true to yourself to have passion.
Over time, you have to be again true to yourself, authentic,
and that caused this person to transition into a much
happier life. One day she realized you can't will an
erection and she decided to get divorced and transition, which
(31:17):
back in the seventies was unique absolutely to do, and
that stuck with me. And be authentic and be passionate
at whatever you do. It was not new phrases, but
it's what I've really believed and learned, and that underscores
(31:39):
everything in the book that when you drift from that
and you're no longer passionate about something, it's time to
exit and move on. Life's too short.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Well that's a great lesson done. Let me lighten us
up because that's a profound and a serious note. So
I will tell you this, don I'll tell our audience
this as well. I was sitting at the network upfronts
years ago. I was sitting next to Irwin Gottlieb and
Peter Trderesi, and it was the year in the ABC
Upfront that Dancing with the Stars had become a breakout
(32:11):
hit in a summer replacement, and then they were bringing
it on to the regular schedule and it's still there,
so it obviously was great. At the time, Steve McPherson
was the head of ABC network. You know, usually the
head of the network will stand up and tell you
why their programming is better than the other guys, our
research is better than the other guys. That year, Steve
McPherson said he was going to do it differently. He
(32:33):
took lessons for months and got on the stage and
his pole performance was him dancing on Lincoln Center stage
and dancing with a car, and that was his upfront
presentation and it was brilliant. And I turned to Irwin
and Peter, who were sitting on either side of me,
and I said, there's a lot of things you guys
can do that I can't do, but I could do that. Wow.
(32:56):
My fantasy is to end up having a dance off
in the advertising industry, okay. And I got a little
close to that because for Ronnie's in my fiftieth anniversary
two years ago, we had a party and the party
thing was Dancing with the Castles and we had a
dance contest. Wow. Ronnie had a partner. I had a partner,
(33:18):
and we had a dance contest good for you, and
we let our grandchildren vote.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Uh oh.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
So my fantasy, don maybe you and I get on
a stage and we have a dance off. Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
We have to make sure there's a proper wager.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I will tell you that in the era of my
children growing up and going to lots of bar mitzvahs. Okay, yes,
we have three kids and close in age, so we
were on the bar Mitzvah circuit many many, many many
years ago, and I was given a nickname by my
kids friends. And I've never told this out loud. I'm
known as tweakle Toes in this wow in the bar
(33:53):
Mitsvah circuit on the west side of La This is
a widely viewed podcast.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
You've disclosed it.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
That's it. I'm going to throw some questions at you
that I like to talk about from the kind of
lightning round. Sure, what was the best night you ever
had at Studio fifty four and can you actually talk
about it?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
The best night was when I got into the VIP room,
which was downstairs, and you.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
May have to edit this out on go ahead, keep going.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I witnessed some famous folks which will not be disclosed
here because they can't defend themselves or deny it doing.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
What people did back.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Then, various drugs and sexual acts right out in the open.
And you know, I wasn't some naive kid. I'm a
kid born in Queens, so I've seen stuff. But that
was fairly profound. And of course all of the other
(34:53):
stuff it's Duo fifty four of the dancing and the
partying and all the stars that you witnessed were great.
But that witnessing of those things in the VIP room
where was like, Wow, I'm not in Kansas anymore.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
No, you're definitely not in Kansas in the VIP room
at Studio fifty four. Don what's something that you're still
trying to get better at?
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I think still not overly caring what other people think
and judging me. That's something I've worked on my whole life,
and I'm far better at it than I used to be.
But there's a book, and I mentioned this in my
book called the Four Questions. It says whatever anyone says
(35:37):
is a reflection of them and their issues, not you
so be immune to the opinions of others and you'll
live a much happier life. And I've totally subscribe to
that and I've gotten much better at it. But it's
still something that if somebody doesn't feel I've done the
right thing or judges me in a negative way, it
still bothers me. And it shouldn't because I can't control that.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Well, Don, I'm going to end there, and I'm going
to say this, it's been fun doing the hustle with you,
and I've still been moving and I've got that beat
in my mind. Now it's going to stick with me.
The Hues Corporation is making its way back into that.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
They're not exactly the Rolling Stones in terms of musical history,
but you and I know they were very special.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
They were very special. Don Kurz, I want to thank
you for joining Good Company today. I enjoyed this conversation immensely.
I could have kept going for hours, and I'm certain
our listeners will feel the same.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast, Michael,
and it's always wonderful to chat with you.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Good Company is brought to you by Breese Ventures. And
iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to Alexis Borger Prudeaux, our executive
producer and head of Content and Talent into Carl Catle,
executive producer at iHeart Podcasts. Episodes are produced and edited
by Mary Doo. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you
next time.
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