Bill Wise and Zvika Netter have spent decades building the invisible machinery that powers modern advertising — and now, with Mediaocean and Innovid under one roof, they’re creating a rare alternative to the industry’s increasingly closed ecosystems. In this candid conversation, the two architects of modern ad tech unpack the collapse of the traditional marketing funnel, the AI revolution reshaping media and creativity, and how they’re positioning advertisers to reclaim greater control, transparency, and independence in a market increasingly dominated by big tech.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good Company is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
It's like a superpower. It used to be the technology
and you know all these things where the access and
the ability to master was limited to a few. It's
very easy to see AI in creative and creative agencies
because it's in our face. But the real transformation is
the fact that it gives any person on the planet
it would access superpowers that were not available. So I
(00:23):
think it's really a change in kind of world order.
Definitely in our industry, I think in many other industries.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I'm Michael Casson and this is Good Company. Together we'll
explore the dynamic intersection of media, marketing, entertainment, sports and technologies.
I'll be joined by visionaries, pioneers, and yes, even a
couple of disruptors for candid conversations as we break down
how these masters of ingenuities are shaping the future of
business and culture and everything in between. My bet is
(00:57):
you'll pick up a listen or two along the way.
I like to say it's all good, Welcome back to
Good Company. Advertising has always been an industry that runs
on relationships, who you know, who you trust, and who
controls the pipes. But right now, something more fundamental is
(01:19):
shifting the question of who actually owns the infrastructure, the
rails that carry billions of dollars in media investments every
single day, has never mattered more. That's why today's conversation
is so timely. I'm joined by two people who have
spent their careers building the kind of systems most people
never see but absolutely cannot live without. Bill Wise is
(01:41):
the co founder and CEO of Media Ocean, the global
operating system for advertising processing over one hundred and fifty
billion in annual spend across eighty countries. Bill started in accounting,
made a sharp left turn into the earliest days of
digital media, and has spent two plus decades making decisions
that shape the plumbing of this entire industry. He thinks
(02:03):
in decades, not quarters, and he has the scar tissue
to back it up. Svika Netter is the co founder
and CEO of Innovid and newly appointed Chief Innovation Officer
of Media Ocean. He has a builder's instinct and a
contrarian's timing, a combination that's more rare than people think.
And he saw something happening in connected television long before
(02:25):
CTV became the most valuable real estate, and media. Together,
they completed one of the most significant deals in ad
tech in recent memory, creating an independent omnichannel platform built
to give advertisers something the big platforms simply won't control,
transparency and a seat at their own table. Bill Zvika,
(02:46):
Welcome to good company. I'm thrilled to have you with me.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Wow. Can you introduce me in every meeting? I'm going
to play that at the start of every meeting. There
you go, Bill, I think that's part of my up.
I think that's part of my job. Mister Wise, I
want to begin by kind of setting the stage for
our listeners. Advertising has always been a messy business, but
(03:11):
right now it feels like something deeper is happening. Technology
is consolidating, media is fragmenting, money and investments are shifting,
and suddenly the question of who actually controls the system
feels very real again. Are we watching the advertising industry
reinvent itself or just rearranging the furniture? Bill take a
(03:33):
shot at that one. Yeah. So it's a loaded question.
And I think the advertising industry does move in decades.
It seems like every ten to twelve years something massive happens, right,
the advent of digital than the advent of mobile, then
the advent of social than the advent of now AI.
And I think we as an industry adapt kind of
(03:56):
the quickest of almost any other vertical to new technologies.
And that's what we're seeing right now with AI. And
then as more things are different, some things are the same, right,
And so we take a very as you said, we
think about the plumbing and electricity, We think about the
infrastructure and what the industry needs to kind of move
(04:20):
forward as technologies evolve. And so we've kind of taken
that approach and then from a perspective of you can
build it, you can partner with it, or you can
acquire it. We are honest with ourselves on the speed
at which the market moves and how fast we can
keep up. And so a big part of our strategy
(04:41):
has always been to evolve through acquisition, the most material
of which was the acquisition of Zvika's business in of
it and it was something that you know, we were competitors,
you know, on the flashhoging side, but you know they
had an expertise around TV and CT and online video
(05:02):
that you know, we said we want to buy number one.
So yes, you know everything's evolving. It's not just shifting
the furniture this time. This is a revolution, not evolution.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
So, Bill, you've said in wise words and other places,
I've heard you say this that the traditional marketing funnel
is collapsing. That's a very big statement. And by the way,
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but in your view,
what replaces it?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
We I mean, you no longer need these proxies. We
have first party data. We have the data to actually
measure outcomes. And so you know, upper funnel and lower funnel,
everything's mid funnel and everything is performance. And brand marketers
are acting like direct marketers. Direct marketers need to compete
(05:49):
in the same supply chain. Bill, You're going into something
that I have close and near and dear to my heart.
Eight years ago I was in a conversation and a
particular client it said to me, Michael, why do we
have a brand marketing unit over here and a performance
marketing unit over here? I said, well, you don't need to.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
You could put them together. She says, what do you mean.
I said, well, you could put together brand and performance.
It could become brandformance. And she looked at me and said,
is that a word? I said, it is now, and
I've been using that word since twenty eighteen, So if
my mouth is right, that's eight years and it's coming
true more and more every day. SPEAKA when you started
(06:28):
in Avid, and I'm happy to share with our listeners
that you and I met all the way back then
or pretty close to the beginning. I should have said
that at the beginning. I've had the pleasure of knowing
Bill for the better part of the last twenty plus years,
Zeka a little less. But both are longtime friends and partners.
But when you started innovid, the concept of connected TV
(06:51):
or the acronym now CTV barely existed. What was it
that you saw that others didn't. There must have been
a nugget or something that you went boom wow.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, you're sending back seventeen eighteen years ago. And clearly
most of my time now is investing for the last
two years definitely now is around AI. So it's almost
like I almost forgot about that, But I actually think
it's connected, you know, in terms of what I believe
what I saw then and what I see now or
a year ago with AI is kind of similar. In
(07:22):
terms of technology that transforms an industry, and back then
people said they were early or it's not goin now
some people may say that the same. So in terms
of CTV, he was actually natural. I think it was.
When YouTube got acquired by Google, it was seven or
six whooping one billion dollars.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I was gonna say for I think one point six,
but I could be wrong.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
A lot of money. Now it's fubbly the best acquisition
in history maybe. And the size of the video was
the size of a matchbox.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
It was tiny.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
It was us of generator for me. When I look
into the future, it's about you know, pattern recognition of
connecting the dots and saying, okay, so it's just a
matter of bandwidth that this, you know, the size of
a tiny user generated video, the technology, it's just a
matter of time that we'll be able to do a
full age d I'm not even sure if back then
we had the you know, definitely not four K. But
(08:12):
it was like, let's just assume the bandwidth will be
there eventually. What does it mean? And then the idea
was like to play and they said, okay, it means
that all television will be on digital, right, So if
you look at double click, you look at the display world, right,
basically performance you just stop branding and performance we need
a branding is television, the performance is digital twenty years
ago and me saying, so let's look at the digital
(08:36):
advertising world pros and cons and saying, we have an
industry that's you know, two hundred billion, one eighty billion
on a global scale that's going to be digitized, whether
it's a matter of three years or five years or
ten years whatever. And then it's basically looking and what
from that historical technology applies here on what will be needed?
(08:56):
Like what will be the difference? And I think the
key thing was we're probably not gonna have millions or
hundreds of millions of destination sites. We'll have so the
reasons CTV and I think also AI will get to it.
I guess in this conversation I kind of think about it.
That's basically will meet. You have ten to fifteen mega
houses like Disney, NBC, you know Roku, Amazon, of course,
(09:19):
you know Netflix. So you have few very powerful publishers
and high end content. You also have not millions of advertisers.
You have you know, a couple of hundreds Let's say
did that one thousand. So you're saying it's not like
display or pure performance, which is everything like there's a
smaller number or very heavy spenders. So we focus and
(09:39):
say those are always going to have different needs than
the ones of this display.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
It's going to be a different set of thoughts exact,
and I.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Think AI will create also a very different set of
dynamics that will force the industry into a revolution.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Well, speaking of revolution, I want to go back, guys.
I set the table by talking about the industry. What
I'd like to do is go back in your guys
respective careers. Bill, as I said in my opening, you
began in accounting kind of like me. I began as
a tax lawyer. I mean, you know, go figure, how
the hell did we end up in this crazy business?
But accounting, like tax law, is a very structured, you know, profession,
(10:22):
and yet you ended up building technology companies in one
of the more chaotic industries, not structured at all, and
certainly in the wild West. You were there in the
early earliest days of digital advertising. You know, I kud
around when I used to say Wenda Wende Millard. Obviously
you worked with Wenda and my partner the early days.
(10:44):
In every industry, pioneers get arrows and settlers get land.
You were both a pioneer who probably took a lot
of arrows, but you ended up getting some land. So
you know, what did people get wrong about that era
of the wild West? The early days, the early double
click days, the early you know, and you.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Were there built Yeah. So I say, thank god I
wasn't a good accountant, which is the only reason why
I landed in this industry. But the only company stupid
enough to hire a twenty six year old to help
take them public was an internet advertising company nineteen ninety
six that ended up being Double Click Right. And after
(11:24):
one year Kevin and Kevin came to me and say,
we got good news and bad news, and I was like,
just give me the bad news. They're like, you're not
really qualified to do anything in accounting. I was like
I never was, And I was like, what's the good news?
And they were like, you know, we're going to take
you under our wing. Go learn M and A and
go work here, Go learn and technology and go work
for Dave Rosenblat, and so I kind of did all
(11:47):
these tours of duties and then eventually they said Hey,
we want to we want to launch a direct marketing
media business under a separate brand from double Click as
a way to capture more market share. They asked me
to kind of run that. And that's when like the
dot com bubble burst and double Click had all these
divisions and the single only one that was profitable was
(12:10):
the one that was run by an accountant. So what
people got wrong is the people who spent you know,
ten twenty years in advertising came from either TV or print,
and the economics of TV and print were very different
than the economics that turned out for digital. And you
can't run you know, these businesses. It's kind of like
(12:31):
AI is changing the cost structure of a lot of companies.
You can't run them the same. And I think a
lot of internet advertising companies ran the businesses like you know,
print or broadcast, and it just couldn't sustain the same
cost structure. And then what you saw was kind of
like the next version of companies come out. And so
(12:54):
some of the large ones you know, were able to prevail.
There was there was one time Jeff Efstein, when he
became CFO, did a one billion dollar convertible debt offering.
Has he not done, that double click would have been
out of business. That was the wild West. But so
many entrepreneurs, executives, next generation leaders came out of that
(13:18):
first generation of Adteck.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Good Company will be right back after the break. I'll
tell a little story and then I'm going to ask
Ka a similar question. But my very first meeting with Wenda.
Interestingly enough, she was joining a panel for the Los
(13:45):
Angeles AD Club in nineteen ninety six or seven. I
was running Western Media and they asked me to be
on the panel, not moderate back in those days. I
was on the panel and there was a woman sitting
next to me and her name card said Wenda Harris
Millard double click. I said two things to her, which
was our first meeting. I said, what's a double click?
(14:07):
And what's when? To Ara's Millard? And that's true, and
that was my first meeting with Wende. But I looked
at the name take and said wend aras Millard double click,
and I thought, what's a double click?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I didn't quite know, Speka, this isn't your first rodeo
at inn of it, and many of your early companies
were building tools for collaboration long before the world worked
remotely long before we thought collaboration was a thing. Well
we always thought collaboration was a thing, but yes, yeah,
not digitally. What was the first real stress test for
(14:40):
your respective businesses as to you know when to hold them,
when to fold them? You know that gut that we
all fortunately have, you know, to some degree or another.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
First of all, it's something you learned with time. You know,
I started my first company in nineteen ninety three and
it was always text. So the end of it is
my fifth company, and definitely, you know, I had one
one nice exit before inn of it, and I think
when interview, I had two or three exits, and I
hopefully tind to have another one for all of us.
So it's definitely something you experience, you know when the
dot combers, you know, nine to eleven COVID ohay. Like
(15:14):
everything else in life, you gain experience and learn what
decisions you may want to make ahead of time or
before it's too late. And then even more importantly, to
do scenario planning. I usually when I create budgets or
based with the situation, it's like best case, worst case,
some scenarios then discussed with the board and saying if
this then that so once crisis hits, you're mentally prepared
(15:38):
to what now needs to happen, because usually when you're younger,
you know, we're programmed to believe that everything's going to
be fine. It's gonna be fine. You know, we're gonna
get the money. They said they will. They signed the contract. Well,
if they signed the term sheet means.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
The famous famous last words, yes, speaker, I'm older. So
one of ours was my checks in the mail, but
I'll leave that.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
My dad was a one man you know business. So
you eat what you kill, You eat what you kill.
I believe that that to see things ahead when you
get that first signals even just the theory of having
something coming towards you, which could be competition, could be
a financial crisis, changes in industry again, you know, so
(16:22):
either harp on it ai also as I, you know,
I need to say, okay, what does it mean. Let's
have a plan or start acting, but not take the
entire organization left or right, but always, you know, have
like a small team and get the board on board.
So when things happen, you're prepared and you don't let
the other side of the brain that says the check
(16:43):
is in the mail, Like you said, no, if we
see these signs, we are taking action. I think that
really helped, you know, innovative COVID or other crisises, we
do actions very very.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Fast, absolutely and well known that you did. I would
add something else to that. Having been now, I guess
this would be the time for full disclosure. As vice
chairman of the board of Media Ocean, you're doing a
good job of keeping the board up to date. So
that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Sorry too, but you know, to spice it up a bit.
And since you mentioned the board, because in my head
I wanted to say also, in terms of what you learn,
you need to learn when to listen and when not
to listen.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
For example, AI was like this this thing coming, but
not everybody sees it, you know, so sometimes to your point,
you need to communicate. But if you treat AI like
yet another thing or a business opportunity or something, Oh yeah,
it's technology or it's going to affect E be done,
you don't fully understand. And it sometimes takes time to
get the board on board, you know, in this case,
not really worked. I can say that you can also
(17:40):
say okay, fine and just go do it like again,
we didn't spend more money except but if we did
not start hardcore building towards AI somewhere in June last year,
it wasn't so clear about agentic et cetera, we wouldn't
be now in market with agents working speaker.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
The word we're looking for is a nuanced It's a
nuanced situation.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Just add I think the beauty of the partnership that
Zeka and I have is our nuances compliment each other
and are different. We both see around corners. I see
around corners in terms of where markets are moving. He
sees around corners in terms of where technology is moving.
Like if it wasn't for Zka, we wouldn't have agents
in market today, right, And so that's the beauty of
(18:22):
you know, I mean, the name of the podcast is
good Company. That's the that's the beauty of having good company.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
You know. Well, by the way, you're right, and let's
talk about good company, and let's talk about big bets.
When Media Ocean and in of It came together back
at the end of twenty four, you know, M and
A is always announced with a lot of hyperbole and
you know, kind of grandiose language about synergy and scale
(18:47):
and transformation. But the truth is usually you begin with
a simpler realization, we can't do this alone. When did
it become a parent built from your perspective and Zvika
from yours, that Media Ocean and Innavid were destined to,
you know, be on a trajectory with a similar future.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I chased Vika around the globe for the better part
of a year and a half, so I had conviction,
you know, back in twenty three.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Zeka, I can tell you that's true because it's the
first time he and I discussed it. So I can
tell you that's true.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That what was the only time in my life that
somebody courted me so much? I wish it was so
successful in other areas.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
But yes, now everyone knows that in this part in
the and serving market that you know, Google through its
Double Hook acquisition ironically, you know, kind of is the
eight r pound guerrilla. And so we acquired Flash Shocking,
which which was a great acquisition, and Flashtalking was the
number three player. And the heritage or Media Ocean has
(19:47):
always been television, right, and so as we think about
next generation television, you know, I actually told Zvika we
probably did the first acquisition wrongly. Like you know, the
first acquisition probably should have been edited. But the idea
and the industrial logic of putting number two and number
three together to create a holistic omni channel competitor to
(20:11):
Google just made absolute sense. And it's also the hardest
acquisition to do, because most integrations is, yeah, you integrate businesses,
figure out where the synergies are, figure out where the
corporate stuff is. This was two competing products that we
needed to merge, the single hardest integration to do, but
(20:33):
the industrial logic was just way too good to ignore.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Let me ask you a question, guys. You know every
merger has skeptics. What do you think the market either
understood well or didn't understand well about this A and
B Five years from now? What will prove that this
wasn't just consolidation but was actually transformative.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I have never on a deal where the market reception
or perception was so positive. I mean, we were asked
Zeke and I were asked to do interview after interview.
It just everyone got it and everyone appreciated it. And
unlike display and mobile CTV, the buyside and cell side
(21:19):
have to come together because it's more of a walled
garden hedge garden scenario. And so I think even more
so not just about Innovid and Flashard come together, but
now New Innovid and Media Ocean coming together. We can
provide a solution, independent and neutral solution that the market
(21:41):
needs to compete with big tech and that level of
scale and independence and us being an industry solution, it's
not just you know, hey, we provide a solution and
we take a couple of points of margin or in
some cases a tech company's taking, you know, dimes of margin.
You know, we provide an industry solution that if we win,
the industry wins, and that is just a wonderful position
(22:03):
to be in.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
And everyone acknowledged it, well, no doubt about that, and
let's talk about that acknowledgment. There was certainly a signal
from the industry a year ago as well, when IPG,
Omnicom and WPP and just for our listeners recollection, that's
when IPG and Omnicom had not yet come together as company.
In fact, a little known fact I think, which is
(22:25):
fun to share, a fun fact while we were negotiating
that at the same time, Hats off to the teams
at IPG and Omnicom. They were negotiating their deal with
the same, very same people we were talking to and
never did a loose lip sink a ship, and they
didn't have any loose lips, And it was quite extraordinary.
But when you get three competitive companies now too, but
(22:48):
three competitive companies like that to agree on anything, let
alone jointly investing, what did that moment mean to you,
Bill ends Vika because Vika was just becoming part of
the media family. Then it was happening simultaneously. Yeah, I mean,
so for me, it served two verpas.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
One. You know, we are the system of record for
the major holding companies and the large ad agencies, and
that level of infrastructure is mission critical. And so having
you know, three of your top four customers, you know,
acknowledge that and say we want to invest comp sit
on your cap table and become shareholders, you know, just
(23:28):
support kind of that system of record. It was just
a good thing for the industry and a good thing
for us. And then and at the same time we
had to go back to them and say, hey, the
source of proceeds for this is we're going to go
out and acquire in of it. And so they also
had to do their diligence on being comfortable that any
(23:49):
of it is the right acquisition to do, which they
also said, yes, like this makes a ton of sense
for our business. And so, you know, a very complicated deal.
But again when you take a step back and you
look at it, it goes, oh, it makes sense, you know.
And they didn't invest millions, right, they did a proper investment.
They now are shareholders, they have a board seat, and
(24:13):
you know, when you're neutral and independent like we are,
this is a good thing. It's an ecosystem play.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And from that perspective, speak, how does the conversation change
or does it when some of the biggest agency groups
in the world and some of your biggest clients are
also your shareholders. And it's a strategy that I certainly
agree with in a competitive circumstances. Bill Well knows I
put it out there when we were competitors many years
(24:43):
ago in a similar way. But you know, now you're
not just customers now your partners. Does it change it
from your perspective?
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Look, for me, this is more of a build thing.
I mean for me, as you said, I kind of
inherited this, and I believe there's definitely an opportunity because
there's such a huge change happening in the industry now
that understanding technology connecting with technology companies with large you know,
holding companies make a ton of sense and you can
(25:12):
see them making acquisition and investments. I think this makes
sense from their perspective. Clearly, it's a relatively small investment
given the size of the business, et cetera. So it's
more keeping communication line open and it's not something that
dramatically impacts the business, either theirs or ours. It's definitely
gives an opportunity to further discuss I think definitely from
(25:35):
my perspective, AI is going to dramatically change the dynamics
in the industry in terms of what the agencies are doing.
Like if you think about you know, data and technology
and how the transformation or you know, revolution or not.
Clearly the technology is getting more and more stronger and stronger.
What agencies can build quote unquote themselves or rely on vendors.
(25:59):
It's a question of position. I think that the lines
between the tech company and sofa company and a services organization.
Bill talked about collapsing the marketing funnel, you can talk
about collapsing the supply chain. In at tech or in
advertising right which the agencies, buyers, the sellers are also
that the sspis were witnessing in the hot codes are
seeing it potentially very dramatic transformations for this industry. So
(26:23):
I think everybody, you know you want to head your bets.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
It begs the question, and I'll begin with the AI
word and say it AI and sort of next phase
of advertising. Every decade or so, at least in my experience,
now approaching forty years in the business, the industry declares
a new revolution digital programmatic mobile AI. Obviously, what actually
(26:49):
changes this time? And kind of a compound question, are
we entering a world where creativity and maybe that word
doesn't matter anymore, but I think it does becomes the
only remaining competitive advantage. You know, Is AI going to
level the playing field? And then creativity becomes our advantage?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Look, I am you know you asked me about CTV.
I'm known for sometimes seeing the future. But when I think,
you know, what happen in a year can take three
or four years, can take longer, the chances that I'll
be mistaken again in terms of timing, I think what
the difference is, It's not new technology it's a new tool.
It's a new it's like a superpower. It's not even
(27:32):
a tool like it's superpower. It used to be the technology,
and you know all these things where you know, the
access and the ability to master was limited to a few, right,
And I'm putting creativity aside. I mean, from my perspective,
it's not there. I'm not saying it's yes or no.
I'm saying pitch pansumitation. Like it's very easy to see
AI in creative and creative agencies because it's in our face.
(27:55):
But the real transformation is the fact that it gives
any person on the planet that access superpowers that were
not available. So I think it's really a change in
kind of world order. Definitely in our industry. I think
in many other industries that a smaller team of people
can do something that takes you know, massive undertaking, and
then some organization prevented the self from doing that. So
(28:17):
I believe it will absolutely change the agency model, will
absolutely change the media in terms of how media it's
being bought and sold. I believe the at the margins
will compress, at least the media margins will probably compressed.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Good Company will be right back after the break. So, guys,
I want to switch to something which really harkens back
to where I got involved in the early aughts relative
(28:55):
to the anti trust conversations. And Bill will remember this well.
When I was brought in by Microsoft in the context
of Helmet and Friedman selling double Click in two thousand
and six to Google at the same time as Microsoft,
as you will recall, Bill made an identical offer of
three point two billion dollars for double Click. Yeah, and
then Atlas you know the flip side of that. But
(29:19):
you know, independence versus big tech, let's talk about that
for a moment. The most powerful companies in advertising today
clearly both buy and sell media, and they control much
of the technology that measures it. It's an extraordinary concentration
of power, something I don't think we've seen in you know,
(29:39):
since the days of you know, standard oil and the
early days of that period of time in our economic growth.
Why does independence matter more now than ever? Bill, And
it's beyond just the grading of one's own homework. It
matters for a whole host of reasons. Can you shed
a little light on that from the perspective of you know,
the constant we spoke of a duopoly. It's much more
(30:02):
than a duopoly. It's a three horse race at some level.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
And maybe four we're TikTok. But listen, when you say
you can't be the prosecution, the defense and the jury,
I think people you know, just nod and say obviously,
but yeah, you know, the largest players in our industry
are just that. And so what we've seen is the
largest marketers have leaned in as of late. And this
(30:28):
has not been a thirty year thing. This has been
like a last five year thing, and they say, yes,
we need to grab back control that we've lost, right,
especially in the world of all gardens, where you know,
you know, now you have to use their data on
top of everything else. Right, And so the world's largest
marketers are trusting media, ocean and in of it to
(30:49):
kind of bring that independence back because it's desperately needed. Right.
And listen, the walls of kind of the demand side
and the supply side are blurring emerging, But you need
to have an independent technology company at scale to kind
of call balls and strikes. And that's kind of our purpose,
(31:10):
you know. And what I love, you know, is that
we can go to CS and CAN and all these
other industry events possible coming up, and we can go
into any room and have a meaningful conversation about how
we solve problems together. So other than the largest you know,
tech companies in the world and Google specifically, we don't
compete with anyone. We enable everyone, and that is needed.
(31:33):
And if you look at other industries, there's always kind
of an infrastructure play that plumbing, electricity that we talked
about earlier, there's that company and that's US.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
I love that and that's the right approach to it,
for sure. And you know you've stated the obvious, but
I think it's true that genuinely advertisers are understanding this
and they want it now. Zvieka. You started in avid
as a company to solve a very specific problem. Today
it sits inside a much larger platform shaping how advertising
(32:05):
really works. Has your role as a builder evolved along
the way.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Not really. I've been fortunate. I started the first company
ninety three a week after I finished my army service, right,
So I've been fortunate financially to have several exits so
I don't have to do this. So I think the
combination of a The only thing I know is to
be a builder, not just the builder of technology and companies,
but also cultures and executive teams and visions, you know.
(32:33):
So it's not just technology. It's a given't organizer. Right,
So what I know about myself if what I'm doing
now did not check, you know, not all the boxes.
You know, we are adults. You know, it's not perfect.
Nothing is perfect.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
As I try to tell my family, I'm Mary Poppins,
I'm practically perfect.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yes, So you know that type of creativity and innovation
and drive has to be otherwise I won't be here, right, So,
by definition, I've been fortunate, you know, as Bill mentioned,
to be part of a business and platform and a
partnership that is allowing or at least recognizing it. It's
the end of the day, it's a business, right, So
(33:13):
what you're doing, it's just satisfying your own needs of
building and stuff, but it's not creating value. You're out
the door. You know, we're all by a pe at
the end of the day. So I believe that for
me again, And you ask it before about the reason
for the merger. From my perspective, it wasn't about the competition.
That makes financial sense, it's a no brainer. But the
key was the AI. So when I pushed the board
(33:35):
the in board, did you want to sell? When I
pushed the board to sell, I said, look, there's this
huge thingcoming, massive opportunity, right, we need to be stronger
and bigger and have more data. So in what I'm
doing now executing on that vision. You know, we did
the merger, we merge organization. It's going great, you know,
but the key thing is creating a platform to really
(33:57):
leverage AI with the data that we have, not just
that new in of it, but also between Prismaine in
of it. So I think twenty twenty six is going
to be a year where people will go more than yes,
it's a murger that makes sense. It will be like,
oh my god, they'll start seeing what's coming out and
the one plus one will be eleven, not two or
two and a half. You know, the math makes sense financially,
(34:18):
But the real innovation is something that's starting to come
out now. And I think, but I think I know
that the speed of it and the magnitude of it
will be something I believe the industry is going to
say we didn't see that coming.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
We say internally that twenty twenty five was about and
Witten Flashardn't Coming Together twenty twenty six is about New
INNOVID and Prisma coming together at a media ocean level.
So a few months ago or late last year, I
asked Zweka to kind of take on an additional new
role of chief Innovation officer of the whole thing. And
(34:52):
he got in front of the company and said, this
is the first promotion I've ever received in my career
because he's only been founder and CEO of four five companies.
So I now am the proud owner of giving Zeka
is first and only promotion on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
The one that gets the most likes is when you
get promotion, and I never got Bletherspion since Sun and
see that I got like seven hundred mikes and I said,
oh my.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
God, I like that. So, guys, I get to switch
to my favorite part of a good company now, which
is our lightning round. And I want to first of
all say I could have kept talking about the tech
side of this all day, and for me, this is
a personal journey and I won't bore our listeners with why,
but watching the success of the two of you come
(35:36):
together and look at this from the twenty plus years
of friendship and competitive friendship sometimes with Bill, and you know,
just watching it come together and getting to be part
of it is a very special moment for me. So
I add that in in full disclosure. Guys, the Lightning Round.
You've not heard these, but Bill, you're hosting a dinner party,
(35:57):
three people living or dead.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Who at the table with you? I'm going to invite
my grandfather. I grew up with a with a single mom,
so he was kind of my de facto dad, and
he just popped into my head. And I would say,
Steve Jobs because they'll probably fight and well, and then
I would I every dinner, I would just want my
whole family with me, so I'll, you know, we'll fit
(36:20):
them into one seaton. It's a great answer. Great answer.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Starting with Grandpa was a good one.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Bill.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
You got me, You had me Shaka, how about you now?
I yeah, So my grandpa version is you know, my father,
because he just passed thirty days ago. So I'm not
going to get everybody crying. But if he will get
an option, clearly that's a that's a fresh, very fresh
I'm thinking about you know, you mentioned this Steve Jobs
(36:45):
like people or I need to think about it. But
like very creative people I don't know, like Kurt Cobaine,
I don't know, it comes to mind without I don't
know why. Like kind of people that kick asked, and
unfortunately I'm not longer with us. Oh you said people
that are around. Maybe I don't know if we all
need to be in the same place. But Elon Musk
is definitely somebody that I cannot say I don't admire him,
(37:07):
but it's like I'm blown away, but it would be interesting,
like he's so smart and the execution is like I
you know, so I probably that would be very interesting conversation.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
I would say Steve Jobs would make my table, but
I would add a sports figure. I'd have to add
Mickey Mantle, even though I was a Dodger fan. I'd
have to add Mickey Mantle speaker. You get this one first.
Who was your mentor or was there a particular mentor
early in your career and was there a particular piece
of advice that mentor gave you?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah? I can think of three, actually, I mean I
said the earliest one is there's a saying you know,
every child needs one adult that sees them, and for
me was my middle school teacher, math teacher, I have
very strong add though it doesn't come across on discoll
because I think Bill is a competitive like he's got
even a stronger ADD. So I'm shutting up here. You know,
(37:57):
my math teacher, So she was the first one that
saw while I'm failing everything, there's something in there. And
we're still in touch. By the way, the only person
in the world before we iPod interview I called to
say thank you. It was to my math teacher and
I think eighth ninth grade and my first company. He
was a CEO of a startup, you know, like applied
(38:20):
materials in Israel. So he said there are three things
important in business. I was twenty one, twenty two and
he said that's focus, focus, focused. Right over the years
I realized how differently with add like the key thing
you focus on thing and the latest the interview it
was the David Rosenblatt, which I'm sure you both know.
He was the CEO of Double Click, and it was
just somebody I look up to and we're still in touch.
(38:43):
And I think some BC brought him in for du
diligence on investing in the Invidia ARAM, but we stayed
in touch. You know, always impressed by his style and
how he thinks and how you know organized he seems
about life and business and how he's got plans for
everything and ideas for everything. So yeah, he's on this three.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
I think my last question, Bill is for you. When's
the last time you saw somebody do something or say
something in the industry or create something and you looked
at it and said, damn, I wish I did that.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Never Never, There you go, bill Wise.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
I couldn't think of a better way to end Good
Company than on that note, z VI, Good natter, bill Wise.
This has been a great pleasure for me. I really
appreciate you making the time being as candid as you were.
And here's what I'll say.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
LFG Media Ocean, Let's go, let's go. Thank you, Michael,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Good Company is brought to you by Greasy Ventures and
iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to Alexis Borgero Pudeo, our executive
producer and head of Content and Talent, and to Carl Catle,
executive producer at iHeart Podcasts. Episodes are produced and edited
by Mary Doo.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.
Good Company is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
It's like a superpower. It used to be the technology
and you know all these things where the access and
the ability to master was limited to a few. It's
very easy to see AI in creative and creative agencies
because it's in our face. But the real transformation is
the fact that it gives any person on the planet
it would access superpowers that were not available. So I
(00:23):
think it's really a change in kind of world order.
Definitely in our industry, I think in many other industries.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I'm Michael Casson and this is Good Company. Together we'll
explore the dynamic intersection of media, marketing, entertainment, sports and technologies.
I'll be joined by visionaries, pioneers, and yes, even a
couple of disruptors for candid conversations as we break down
how these masters of ingenuities are shaping the future of
business and culture and everything in between. My bet is
(00:57):
you'll pick up a listen or two along the way.
I like to say it's all good, Welcome back to
Good Company. Advertising has always been an industry that runs
on relationships, who you know, who you trust, and who
controls the pipes. But right now, something more fundamental is
(01:19):
shifting the question of who actually owns the infrastructure, the
rails that carry billions of dollars in media investments every
single day, has never mattered more. That's why today's conversation
is so timely. I'm joined by two people who have
spent their careers building the kind of systems most people
never see but absolutely cannot live without. Bill Wise is
(01:41):
the co founder and CEO of Media Ocean, the global
operating system for advertising processing over one hundred and fifty
billion in annual spend across eighty countries. Bill started in accounting,
made a sharp left turn into the earliest days of
digital media, and has spent two plus decades making decisions
that shape the plumbing of this entire industry. He thinks
(02:03):
in decades, not quarters, and he has the scar tissue
to back it up. Svika Netter is the co founder
and CEO of Innovid and newly appointed Chief Innovation Officer
of Media Ocean. He has a builder's instinct and a
contrarian's timing, a combination that's more rare than people think.
And he saw something happening in connected television long before
(02:25):
CTV became the most valuable real estate, and media. Together,
they completed one of the most significant deals in ad
tech in recent memory, creating an independent omnichannel platform built
to give advertisers something the big platforms simply won't control,
transparency and a seat at their own table. Bill Zvika,
(02:46):
Welcome to good company. I'm thrilled to have you with me.
Let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Wow. Can you introduce me in every meeting? I'm going
to play that at the start of every meeting. There
you go, Bill, I think that's part of my up.
I think that's part of my job. Mister Wise, I
want to begin by kind of setting the stage for
our listeners. Advertising has always been a messy business, but
(03:11):
right now it feels like something deeper is happening. Technology
is consolidating, media is fragmenting, money and investments are shifting,
and suddenly the question of who actually controls the system
feels very real again. Are we watching the advertising industry
reinvent itself or just rearranging the furniture? Bill take a
(03:33):
shot at that one. Yeah. So it's a loaded question.
And I think the advertising industry does move in decades.
It seems like every ten to twelve years something massive happens, right,
the advent of digital than the advent of mobile, then
the advent of social than the advent of now AI.
And I think we as an industry adapt kind of
(03:56):
the quickest of almost any other vertical to new technologies.
And that's what we're seeing right now with AI. And
then as more things are different, some things are the same, right,
And so we take a very as you said, we
think about the plumbing and electricity, We think about the
infrastructure and what the industry needs to kind of move
(04:20):
forward as technologies evolve. And so we've kind of taken
that approach and then from a perspective of you can
build it, you can partner with it, or you can
acquire it. We are honest with ourselves on the speed
at which the market moves and how fast we can
keep up. And so a big part of our strategy
(04:41):
has always been to evolve through acquisition, the most material
of which was the acquisition of Zvika's business in of
it and it was something that you know, we were competitors,
you know, on the flashhoging side, but you know they
had an expertise around TV and CT and online video
(05:02):
that you know, we said we want to buy number one.
So yes, you know everything's evolving. It's not just shifting
the furniture this time. This is a revolution, not evolution.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
So, Bill, you've said in wise words and other places,
I've heard you say this that the traditional marketing funnel
is collapsing. That's a very big statement. And by the way,
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but in your view,
what replaces it?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
We I mean, you no longer need these proxies. We
have first party data. We have the data to actually
measure outcomes. And so you know, upper funnel and lower funnel,
everything's mid funnel and everything is performance. And brand marketers
are acting like direct marketers. Direct marketers need to compete
(05:49):
in the same supply chain. Bill, You're going into something
that I have close and near and dear to my heart.
Eight years ago I was in a conversation and a
particular client it said to me, Michael, why do we
have a brand marketing unit over here and a performance
marketing unit over here? I said, well, you don't need to.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
You could put them together. She says, what do you mean.
I said, well, you could put together brand and performance.
It could become brandformance. And she looked at me and said,
is that a word? I said, it is now, and
I've been using that word since twenty eighteen, So if
my mouth is right, that's eight years and it's coming
true more and more every day. SPEAKA when you started
(06:28):
in Avid, and I'm happy to share with our listeners
that you and I met all the way back then
or pretty close to the beginning. I should have said
that at the beginning. I've had the pleasure of knowing
Bill for the better part of the last twenty plus years,
Zeka a little less. But both are longtime friends and partners.
But when you started innovid, the concept of connected TV
(06:51):
or the acronym now CTV barely existed. What was it
that you saw that others didn't. There must have been
a nugget or something that you went boom wow.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, you're sending back seventeen eighteen years ago. And clearly
most of my time now is investing for the last
two years definitely now is around AI. So it's almost
like I almost forgot about that, But I actually think
it's connected, you know, in terms of what I believe
what I saw then and what I see now or
a year ago with AI is kind of similar. In
(07:22):
terms of technology that transforms an industry, and back then
people said they were early or it's not goin now
some people may say that the same. So in terms
of CTV, he was actually natural. I think it was.
When YouTube got acquired by Google, it was seven or
six whooping one billion dollars.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I was gonna say for I think one point six,
but I could be wrong.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
A lot of money. Now it's fubbly the best acquisition
in history maybe. And the size of the video was
the size of a matchbox.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
It was tiny.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
It was us of generator for me. When I look
into the future, it's about you know, pattern recognition of
connecting the dots and saying, okay, so it's just a
matter of bandwidth that this, you know, the size of
a tiny user generated video, the technology, it's just a
matter of time that we'll be able to do a
full age d I'm not even sure if back then
we had the you know, definitely not four K. But
(08:12):
it was like, let's just assume the bandwidth will be
there eventually. What does it mean? And then the idea
was like to play and they said, okay, it means
that all television will be on digital, right, So if
you look at double click, you look at the display world, right,
basically performance you just stop branding and performance we need
a branding is television, the performance is digital twenty years
ago and me saying, so let's look at the digital
(08:36):
advertising world pros and cons and saying, we have an
industry that's you know, two hundred billion, one eighty billion
on a global scale that's going to be digitized, whether
it's a matter of three years or five years or
ten years whatever. And then it's basically looking and what
from that historical technology applies here on what will be needed?
(08:56):
Like what will be the difference? And I think the
key thing was we're probably not gonna have millions or
hundreds of millions of destination sites. We'll have so the
reasons CTV and I think also AI will get to it.
I guess in this conversation I kind of think about it.
That's basically will meet. You have ten to fifteen mega
houses like Disney, NBC, you know Roku, Amazon, of course,
(09:19):
you know Netflix. So you have few very powerful publishers
and high end content. You also have not millions of advertisers.
You have you know, a couple of hundreds Let's say
did that one thousand. So you're saying it's not like
display or pure performance, which is everything like there's a
smaller number or very heavy spenders. So we focus and
(09:39):
say those are always going to have different needs than
the ones of this display.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
It's going to be a different set of thoughts exact,
and I.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Think AI will create also a very different set of
dynamics that will force the industry into a revolution.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Well, speaking of revolution, I want to go back, guys.
I set the table by talking about the industry. What
I'd like to do is go back in your guys
respective careers. Bill, as I said in my opening, you
began in accounting kind of like me. I began as
a tax lawyer. I mean, you know, go figure, how
the hell did we end up in this crazy business?
But accounting, like tax law, is a very structured, you know, profession,
(10:22):
and yet you ended up building technology companies in one
of the more chaotic industries, not structured at all, and
certainly in the wild West. You were there in the
early earliest days of digital advertising. You know, I kud
around when I used to say Wenda Wende Millard. Obviously
you worked with Wenda and my partner the early days.
(10:44):
In every industry, pioneers get arrows and settlers get land.
You were both a pioneer who probably took a lot
of arrows, but you ended up getting some land. So
you know, what did people get wrong about that era
of the wild West? The early days, the early double
click days, the early you know, and you.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Were there built Yeah. So I say, thank god I
wasn't a good accountant, which is the only reason why
I landed in this industry. But the only company stupid
enough to hire a twenty six year old to help
take them public was an internet advertising company nineteen ninety
six that ended up being Double Click Right. And after
(11:24):
one year Kevin and Kevin came to me and say,
we got good news and bad news, and I was like,
just give me the bad news. They're like, you're not
really qualified to do anything in accounting. I was like
I never was, And I was like, what's the good news?
And they were like, you know, we're going to take
you under our wing. Go learn M and A and
go work here, Go learn and technology and go work
for Dave Rosenblat, and so I kind of did all
(11:47):
these tours of duties and then eventually they said Hey,
we want to we want to launch a direct marketing
media business under a separate brand from double Click as
a way to capture more market share. They asked me
to kind of run that. And that's when like the
dot com bubble burst and double Click had all these
divisions and the single only one that was profitable was
(12:10):
the one that was run by an accountant. So what
people got wrong is the people who spent you know,
ten twenty years in advertising came from either TV or print,
and the economics of TV and print were very different
than the economics that turned out for digital. And you
can't run you know, these businesses. It's kind of like
(12:31):
AI is changing the cost structure of a lot of companies.
You can't run them the same. And I think a
lot of internet advertising companies ran the businesses like you know,
print or broadcast, and it just couldn't sustain the same
cost structure. And then what you saw was kind of
like the next version of companies come out. And so
(12:54):
some of the large ones you know, were able to prevail.
There was there was one time Jeff Efstein, when he
became CFO, did a one billion dollar convertible debt offering.
Has he not done, that double click would have been
out of business. That was the wild West. But so
many entrepreneurs, executives, next generation leaders came out of that
(13:18):
first generation of Adteck.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Good Company will be right back after the break. I'll
tell a little story and then I'm going to ask
Ka a similar question. But my very first meeting with Wenda.
Interestingly enough, she was joining a panel for the Los
(13:45):
Angeles AD Club in nineteen ninety six or seven. I
was running Western Media and they asked me to be
on the panel, not moderate back in those days. I
was on the panel and there was a woman sitting
next to me and her name card said Wenda Harris
Millard double click. I said two things to her, which
was our first meeting. I said, what's a double click?
(14:07):
And what's when? To Ara's Millard? And that's true, and
that was my first meeting with Wende. But I looked
at the name take and said wend aras Millard double click,
and I thought, what's a double click?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
I didn't quite know, Speka, this isn't your first rodeo
at inn of it, and many of your early companies
were building tools for collaboration long before the world worked
remotely long before we thought collaboration was a thing. Well
we always thought collaboration was a thing, but yes, yeah,
not digitally. What was the first real stress test for
(14:40):
your respective businesses as to you know when to hold them,
when to fold them? You know that gut that we
all fortunately have, you know, to some degree or another.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
First of all, it's something you learned with time. You know,
I started my first company in nineteen ninety three and
it was always text. So the end of it is
my fifth company, and definitely, you know, I had one
one nice exit before inn of it, and I think
when interview, I had two or three exits, and I
hopefully tind to have another one for all of us.
So it's definitely something you experience, you know when the
dot combers, you know, nine to eleven COVID ohay. Like
(15:14):
everything else in life, you gain experience and learn what
decisions you may want to make ahead of time or
before it's too late. And then even more importantly, to
do scenario planning. I usually when I create budgets or
based with the situation, it's like best case, worst case,
some scenarios then discussed with the board and saying if
this then that so once crisis hits, you're mentally prepared
(15:38):
to what now needs to happen, because usually when you're younger,
you know, we're programmed to believe that everything's going to
be fine. It's gonna be fine. You know, we're gonna
get the money. They said they will. They signed the contract. Well,
if they signed the term sheet means.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
The famous famous last words, yes, speaker, I'm older. So
one of ours was my checks in the mail, but
I'll leave that.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
My dad was a one man you know business. So
you eat what you kill, You eat what you kill.
I believe that that to see things ahead when you
get that first signals even just the theory of having
something coming towards you, which could be competition, could be
a financial crisis, changes in industry again, you know, so
(16:22):
either harp on it ai also as I, you know,
I need to say, okay, what does it mean. Let's
have a plan or start acting, but not take the
entire organization left or right, but always, you know, have
like a small team and get the board on board.
So when things happen, you're prepared and you don't let
the other side of the brain that says the check
(16:43):
is in the mail, Like you said, no, if we
see these signs, we are taking action. I think that
really helped, you know, innovative COVID or other crisises, we
do actions very very.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Fast, absolutely and well known that you did. I would
add something else to that. Having been now, I guess
this would be the time for full disclosure. As vice
chairman of the board of Media Ocean, you're doing a
good job of keeping the board up to date. So
that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Sorry too, but you know, to spice it up a bit.
And since you mentioned the board, because in my head
I wanted to say also, in terms of what you learn,
you need to learn when to listen and when not
to listen.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
You know.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
For example, AI was like this this thing coming, but
not everybody sees it, you know, so sometimes to your point,
you need to communicate. But if you treat AI like
yet another thing or a business opportunity or something, Oh yeah,
it's technology or it's going to affect E be done,
you don't fully understand. And it sometimes takes time to
get the board on board, you know, in this case,
not really worked. I can say that you can also
(17:40):
say okay, fine and just go do it like again,
we didn't spend more money except but if we did
not start hardcore building towards AI somewhere in June last year,
it wasn't so clear about agentic et cetera, we wouldn't
be now in market with agents working speaker.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
The word we're looking for is a nuanced It's a
nuanced situation.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Just add I think the beauty of the partnership that
Zeka and I have is our nuances compliment each other
and are different. We both see around corners. I see
around corners in terms of where markets are moving. He
sees around corners in terms of where technology is moving.
Like if it wasn't for Zka, we wouldn't have agents
in market today, right, And so that's the beauty of
(18:22):
you know, I mean, the name of the podcast is
good Company. That's the that's the beauty of having good company.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
You know. Well, by the way, you're right, and let's
talk about good company, and let's talk about big bets.
When Media Ocean and in of It came together back
at the end of twenty four, you know, M and
A is always announced with a lot of hyperbole and
you know, kind of grandiose language about synergy and scale
(18:47):
and transformation. But the truth is usually you begin with
a simpler realization, we can't do this alone. When did
it become a parent built from your perspective and Zvika
from yours, that Media Ocean and Innavid were destined to,
you know, be on a trajectory with a similar future.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I chased Vika around the globe for the better part
of a year and a half, so I had conviction,
you know, back in twenty three.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Zeka, I can tell you that's true because it's the
first time he and I discussed it. So I can
tell you that's true.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
That what was the only time in my life that
somebody courted me so much? I wish it was so
successful in other areas.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
But yes, now everyone knows that in this part in
the and serving market that you know, Google through its
Double Hook acquisition ironically, you know, kind of is the
eight r pound guerrilla. And so we acquired Flash Shocking,
which which was a great acquisition, and Flashtalking was the
number three player. And the heritage or Media Ocean has
(19:47):
always been television, right, and so as we think about
next generation television, you know, I actually told Zvika we
probably did the first acquisition wrongly. Like you know, the
first acquisition probably should have been edited. But the idea
and the industrial logic of putting number two and number
three together to create a holistic omni channel competitor to
(20:11):
Google just made absolute sense. And it's also the hardest
acquisition to do, because most integrations is, yeah, you integrate businesses,
figure out where the synergies are, figure out where the
corporate stuff is. This was two competing products that we
needed to merge, the single hardest integration to do, but
(20:33):
the industrial logic was just way too good to ignore.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Let me ask you a question, guys. You know every
merger has skeptics. What do you think the market either
understood well or didn't understand well about this A and
B Five years from now? What will prove that this
wasn't just consolidation but was actually transformative.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I have never on a deal where the market reception
or perception was so positive. I mean, we were asked
Zeke and I were asked to do interview after interview.
It just everyone got it and everyone appreciated it. And
unlike display and mobile CTV, the buyside and cell side
(21:19):
have to come together because it's more of a walled
garden hedge garden scenario. And so I think even more
so not just about Innovid and Flashard come together, but
now New Innovid and Media Ocean coming together. We can
provide a solution, independent and neutral solution that the market
(21:41):
needs to compete with big tech and that level of
scale and independence and us being an industry solution, it's
not just you know, hey, we provide a solution and
we take a couple of points of margin or in
some cases a tech company's taking, you know, dimes of margin.
You know, we provide an industry solution that if we win,
the industry wins, and that is just a wonderful position
(22:03):
to be in.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
And everyone acknowledged it, well, no doubt about that, and
let's talk about that acknowledgment. There was certainly a signal
from the industry a year ago as well, when IPG,
Omnicom and WPP and just for our listeners recollection, that's
when IPG and Omnicom had not yet come together as company.
In fact, a little known fact I think, which is
(22:25):
fun to share, a fun fact while we were negotiating
that at the same time, Hats off to the teams
at IPG and Omnicom. They were negotiating their deal with
the same, very same people we were talking to and
never did a loose lip sink a ship, and they
didn't have any loose lips, And it was quite extraordinary.
But when you get three competitive companies now too, but
(22:48):
three competitive companies like that to agree on anything, let
alone jointly investing, what did that moment mean to you,
Bill ends Vika because Vika was just becoming part of
the media family. Then it was happening simultaneously. Yeah, I mean,
so for me, it served two verpas.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
One. You know, we are the system of record for
the major holding companies and the large ad agencies, and
that level of infrastructure is mission critical. And so having
you know, three of your top four customers, you know,
acknowledge that and say we want to invest comp sit
on your cap table and become shareholders, you know, just
(23:28):
support kind of that system of record. It was just
a good thing for the industry and a good thing
for us. And then and at the same time we
had to go back to them and say, hey, the
source of proceeds for this is we're going to go
out and acquire in of it. And so they also
had to do their diligence on being comfortable that any
(23:49):
of it is the right acquisition to do, which they
also said, yes, like this makes a ton of sense
for our business. And so, you know, a very complicated deal.
But again when you take a step back and you
look at it, it goes, oh, it makes sense, you know.
And they didn't invest millions, right, they did a proper investment.
They now are shareholders, they have a board seat, and
(24:13):
you know, when you're neutral and independent like we are,
this is a good thing. It's an ecosystem play.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And from that perspective, speak, how does the conversation change
or does it when some of the biggest agency groups
in the world and some of your biggest clients are
also your shareholders. And it's a strategy that I certainly
agree with in a competitive circumstances. Bill Well knows I
put it out there when we were competitors many years
(24:43):
ago in a similar way. But you know, now you're
not just customers now your partners. Does it change it
from your perspective?
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Look, for me, this is more of a build thing.
I mean for me, as you said, I kind of
inherited this, and I believe there's definitely an opportunity because
there's such a huge change happening in the industry now
that understanding technology connecting with technology companies with large you know,
holding companies make a ton of sense and you can
(25:12):
see them making acquisition and investments. I think this makes
sense from their perspective. Clearly, it's a relatively small investment
given the size of the business, et cetera. So it's
more keeping communication line open and it's not something that
dramatically impacts the business, either theirs or ours. It's definitely
gives an opportunity to further discuss I think definitely from
(25:35):
my perspective, AI is going to dramatically change the dynamics
in the industry in terms of what the agencies are doing.
Like if you think about you know, data and technology
and how the transformation or you know, revolution or not.
Clearly the technology is getting more and more stronger and stronger.
What agencies can build quote unquote themselves or rely on vendors.
(25:59):
It's a question of position. I think that the lines
between the tech company and sofa company and a services organization.
Bill talked about collapsing the marketing funnel, you can talk
about collapsing the supply chain. In at tech or in
advertising right which the agencies, buyers, the sellers are also
that the sspis were witnessing in the hot codes are
seeing it potentially very dramatic transformations for this industry. So
(26:23):
I think everybody, you know you want to head your bets.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
It begs the question, and I'll begin with the AI
word and say it AI and sort of next phase
of advertising. Every decade or so, at least in my experience,
now approaching forty years in the business, the industry declares
a new revolution digital programmatic mobile AI. Obviously, what actually
(26:49):
changes this time? And kind of a compound question, are
we entering a world where creativity and maybe that word
doesn't matter anymore, but I think it does becomes the
only remaining competitive advantage. You know, Is AI going to
level the playing field? And then creativity becomes our advantage?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Look, I am you know you asked me about CTV.
I'm known for sometimes seeing the future. But when I think,
you know, what happen in a year can take three
or four years, can take longer, the chances that I'll
be mistaken again in terms of timing, I think what
the difference is, It's not new technology it's a new tool.
It's a new it's like a superpower. It's not even
(27:32):
a tool like it's superpower. It used to be the technology,
and you know all these things where you know, the
access and the ability to master was limited to a few, right,
And I'm putting creativity aside. I mean, from my perspective,
it's not there. I'm not saying it's yes or no.
I'm saying pitch pansumitation. Like it's very easy to see
AI in creative and creative agencies because it's in our face.
(27:55):
But the real transformation is the fact that it gives
any person on the planet that access superpowers that were
not available. So I think it's really a change in
kind of world order. Definitely in our industry. I think
in many other industries that a smaller team of people
can do something that takes you know, massive undertaking, and
then some organization prevented the self from doing that. So
(28:17):
I believe it will absolutely change the agency model, will
absolutely change the media in terms of how media it's
being bought and sold. I believe the at the margins
will compress, at least the media margins will probably compressed.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Good Company will be right back after the break. So, guys,
I want to switch to something which really harkens back
to where I got involved in the early aughts relative
(28:55):
to the anti trust conversations. And Bill will remember this well.
When I was brought in by Microsoft in the context
of Helmet and Friedman selling double Click in two thousand
and six to Google at the same time as Microsoft,
as you will recall, Bill made an identical offer of
three point two billion dollars for double Click. Yeah, and
then Atlas you know the flip side of that. But
(29:19):
you know, independence versus big tech, let's talk about that
for a moment. The most powerful companies in advertising today
clearly both buy and sell media, and they control much
of the technology that measures it. It's an extraordinary concentration
of power, something I don't think we've seen in you know,
(29:39):
since the days of you know, standard oil and the
early days of that period of time in our economic growth.
Why does independence matter more now than ever? Bill, And
it's beyond just the grading of one's own homework. It
matters for a whole host of reasons. Can you shed
a little light on that from the perspective of you know,
the constant we spoke of a duopoly. It's much more
(30:02):
than a duopoly. It's a three horse race at some level.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
And maybe four we're TikTok. But listen, when you say
you can't be the prosecution, the defense and the jury,
I think people you know, just nod and say obviously,
but yeah, you know, the largest players in our industry
are just that. And so what we've seen is the
largest marketers have leaned in as of late. And this
(30:28):
has not been a thirty year thing. This has been
like a last five year thing, and they say, yes,
we need to grab back control that we've lost, right,
especially in the world of all gardens, where you know,
you know, now you have to use their data on
top of everything else. Right, And so the world's largest
marketers are trusting media, ocean and in of it to
(30:49):
kind of bring that independence back because it's desperately needed. Right.
And listen, the walls of kind of the demand side
and the supply side are blurring emerging, But you need
to have an independent technology company at scale to kind
of call balls and strikes. And that's kind of our purpose,
(31:10):
you know. And what I love, you know, is that
we can go to CS and CAN and all these
other industry events possible coming up, and we can go
into any room and have a meaningful conversation about how
we solve problems together. So other than the largest you know,
tech companies in the world and Google specifically, we don't
compete with anyone. We enable everyone, and that is needed.
(31:33):
And if you look at other industries, there's always kind
of an infrastructure play that plumbing, electricity that we talked
about earlier, there's that company and that's US.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
I love that and that's the right approach to it,
for sure. And you know you've stated the obvious, but
I think it's true that genuinely advertisers are understanding this
and they want it now. Zvieka. You started in avid
as a company to solve a very specific problem. Today
it sits inside a much larger platform shaping how advertising
(32:05):
really works. Has your role as a builder evolved along
the way.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Not really. I've been fortunate. I started the first company
ninety three a week after I finished my army service, right,
So I've been fortunate financially to have several exits so
I don't have to do this. So I think the
combination of a The only thing I know is to
be a builder, not just the builder of technology and companies,
but also cultures and executive teams and visions, you know.
(32:33):
So it's not just technology. It's a given't organizer. Right,
So what I know about myself if what I'm doing
now did not check, you know, not all the boxes.
You know, we are adults. You know, it's not perfect.
Nothing is perfect.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
As I try to tell my family, I'm Mary Poppins,
I'm practically perfect.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yes, So you know that type of creativity and innovation
and drive has to be otherwise I won't be here, right, So,
by definition, I've been fortunate, you know, as Bill mentioned,
to be part of a business and platform and a
partnership that is allowing or at least recognizing it. It's
the end of the day, it's a business, right, So
(33:13):
what you're doing, it's just satisfying your own needs of
building and stuff, but it's not creating value. You're out
the door. You know, we're all by a pe at
the end of the day. So I believe that for
me again, And you ask it before about the reason
for the merger. From my perspective, it wasn't about the competition.
That makes financial sense, it's a no brainer. But the
key was the AI. So when I pushed the board
(33:35):
the in board, did you want to sell? When I
pushed the board to sell, I said, look, there's this
huge thingcoming, massive opportunity, right, we need to be stronger
and bigger and have more data. So in what I'm
doing now executing on that vision. You know, we did
the merger, we merge organization. It's going great, you know,
but the key thing is creating a platform to really
(33:57):
leverage AI with the data that we have, not just
that new in of it, but also between Prismaine in
of it. So I think twenty twenty six is going
to be a year where people will go more than yes,
it's a murger that makes sense. It will be like,
oh my god, they'll start seeing what's coming out and
the one plus one will be eleven, not two or
two and a half. You know, the math makes sense financially,
(34:18):
But the real innovation is something that's starting to come
out now. And I think, but I think I know
that the speed of it and the magnitude of it
will be something I believe the industry is going to
say we didn't see that coming.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
We say internally that twenty twenty five was about and
Witten Flashardn't Coming Together twenty twenty six is about New
INNOVID and Prisma coming together at a media ocean level.
So a few months ago or late last year, I
asked Zweka to kind of take on an additional new
role of chief Innovation officer of the whole thing. And
(34:52):
he got in front of the company and said, this
is the first promotion I've ever received in my career
because he's only been founder and CEO of four five companies.
So I now am the proud owner of giving Zeka
is first and only promotion on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
The one that gets the most likes is when you
get promotion, and I never got Bletherspion since Sun and
see that I got like seven hundred mikes and I said,
oh my.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
God, I like that. So, guys, I get to switch
to my favorite part of a good company now, which
is our lightning round. And I want to first of
all say I could have kept talking about the tech
side of this all day, and for me, this is
a personal journey and I won't bore our listeners with why,
but watching the success of the two of you come
(35:36):
together and look at this from the twenty plus years
of friendship and competitive friendship sometimes with Bill, and you know,
just watching it come together and getting to be part
of it is a very special moment for me. So
I add that in in full disclosure. Guys, the Lightning Round.
You've not heard these, but Bill, you're hosting a dinner party,
(35:57):
three people living or dead.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Who at the table with you? I'm going to invite
my grandfather. I grew up with a with a single mom,
so he was kind of my de facto dad, and
he just popped into my head. And I would say,
Steve Jobs because they'll probably fight and well, and then
I would I every dinner, I would just want my
whole family with me, so I'll, you know, we'll fit
(36:20):
them into one seaton. It's a great answer. Great answer.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Starting with Grandpa was a good one.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Bill.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
You got me, You had me Shaka, how about you now?
I yeah, So my grandpa version is you know, my father,
because he just passed thirty days ago. So I'm not
going to get everybody crying. But if he will get
an option, clearly that's a that's a fresh, very fresh
I'm thinking about you know, you mentioned this Steve Jobs
(36:45):
like people or I need to think about it. But
like very creative people I don't know, like Kurt Cobaine,
I don't know, it comes to mind without I don't
know why. Like kind of people that kick asked, and
unfortunately I'm not longer with us. Oh you said people
that are around. Maybe I don't know if we all
need to be in the same place. But Elon Musk
is definitely somebody that I cannot say I don't admire him,
(37:07):
but it's like I'm blown away, but it would be interesting,
like he's so smart and the execution is like I
you know, so I probably that would be very interesting conversation.
Speaker 3 (37:17):
I would say Steve Jobs would make my table, but
I would add a sports figure. I'd have to add
Mickey Mantle, even though I was a Dodger fan. I'd
have to add Mickey Mantle speaker. You get this one first.
Who was your mentor or was there a particular mentor
early in your career and was there a particular piece
of advice that mentor gave you?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah? I can think of three, actually, I mean I
said the earliest one is there's a saying you know,
every child needs one adult that sees them, and for
me was my middle school teacher, math teacher, I have
very strong add though it doesn't come across on discoll
because I think Bill is a competitive like he's got
even a stronger ADD. So I'm shutting up here. You know,
(37:57):
my math teacher, So she was the first one that
saw while I'm failing everything, there's something in there. And
we're still in touch. By the way, the only person
in the world before we iPod interview I called to
say thank you. It was to my math teacher and
I think eighth ninth grade and my first company. He
was a CEO of a startup, you know, like applied
(38:20):
materials in Israel. So he said there are three things
important in business. I was twenty one, twenty two and
he said that's focus, focus, focused. Right over the years
I realized how differently with add like the key thing
you focus on thing and the latest the interview it
was the David Rosenblatt, which I'm sure you both know.
He was the CEO of Double Click, and it was
just somebody I look up to and we're still in touch.
(38:43):
And I think some BC brought him in for du
diligence on investing in the Invidia ARAM, but we stayed
in touch. You know, always impressed by his style and
how he thinks and how you know organized he seems
about life and business and how he's got plans for
everything and ideas for everything. So yeah, he's on this three.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
I think my last question, Bill is for you. When's
the last time you saw somebody do something or say
something in the industry or create something and you looked
at it and said, damn, I wish I did that.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Never Never, There you go, bill Wise.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
I couldn't think of a better way to end Good
Company than on that note, z VI, Good natter, bill Wise.
This has been a great pleasure for me. I really
appreciate you making the time being as candid as you were.
And here's what I'll say.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
LFG Media Ocean, Let's go, let's go. Thank you, Michael,
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Good Company is brought to you by Greasy Ventures and
iHeart Podcasts. Special thanks to Alexis Borgero Pudeo, our executive
producer and head of Content and Talent, and to Carl Catle,
executive producer at iHeart Podcasts. Episodes are produced and edited
by Mary Doo.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time.
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