April 30, 2026 • 43 mins
It’s Good Game’s 450th birthday – aka our 450th episode – so Big Citrus gets together to celebrate the milestone. Sarah, Alex, and Bianca discuss how the women’s sports landscape has changed since the show's launch in the summer of 2024, the highs and lows of the current women’s sports boon, and why they're worried about WNBA commissioner Cathy Engelbert’s comments about “fragility.” Plus, a stunning upset in Spain, another ACL bites the dust, and where's the real epicenter? Big Citrus asks the Slices to show them the way.
- Read Jeff Kassouf’s story on the NWSL’s decision to keep its current schedule here
- You can now WATCH Sarah’s interviews! Subscribe to @iHeartWomensSports on YouTube and check out the Good Game playlist here
- Leave us a voicemail at 872-204-5070 or send us a note at goodgame@wondermedianetwork.com
- Follow Sarah on social! Bluesky: @sarahspain.com Instagram: @Spain2323
- Follow producer Alex Azzi! Bluesky: @byalexazzi.bsky.social Instagram: @AzziArtwork
- Follow producer Bianca Hillier! Bluesky: @biancahillier.bsky.social
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain. Do you really
want to know where we were April twenty ninth.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
We were reading.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Tailor's New York Times interview, obviously, and prepping for today's celebration.
It's our four hundred and fiftieth episode, y'all. It's Thursday,
April thirtieth. The On today's show, Big Citrus gets together
to celebrate four fifty. We'll take a look back at
the Good Game archive, analyze how the women's sports landscape
has changed, even just since the show started in the
summer of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Talk about how.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
To discuss the highs and lows of the current women's
sportspoon and why we're so worried about WNBA Commissioner Katy
Engelbert's comments about quote unquote fragility. Then, of course, we
got to manifest what we want for the next four
hundred and fifty episodes, and we've got a little contest
we're cooking up too, plus a stunning upset in Spain,
another acl bites the dust, and one WNBA star says cheers.
(00:53):
It's all coming up right after this Welcome back slices.
Here's what you need to know today. Let's start with
the PWHL, where the Walter Cup playoffs get underway tonight
with number two Boston hosting number four Ottawa for Game
(01:14):
one of their best of five semi final series. That's
a seven pm Eastern puck drop. Recent history tells us
it might be a long one. During the regular season,
all four games between Boston and Ottawa went into overtime,
with the Charge ultimately winning three of the four. Ottawa's
looking at clinch a spot in the PWHL finals for
a second straight year, while Boston is looking to make
(01:35):
it back to the finals for the first time since
twenty twenty four. Meantime, Game one of the other semi
final series between number one Montreal and number three Minnesota
isn't till Saturday. In both semi final series, Boston and
Montreal will be looking to shake the PWHL's higher seed
playoff curse. During the first two years of the league,
the lower seeded team has won all four playoff semi finals.
(01:58):
To tennis, where world number the thirty Haley Baptiste continued
her stunning run at the Madrid Open on Tuesday, upsetting
world number one Arena sabaleaka two six six two, seven
to six. In the quarterfinals, the twenty four year old
American snapped Sabalaka's fifteen match win streak and she saved
six match points en route to her first ever win
over a top five opponent. She'll play in a WTA
(02:20):
one thousand semi final for the first time, taking on
world number nine Mira Andreva today at ten am Eastern.
Anastasia Potapova takes on Marte Kostyuk in the other quarterfinal
at three thirty pm Eastern to soccer. FIFA announced new
rules on Wednesday that will allow the Afghan women's refugee
team to compete as an official national team. The team,
(02:40):
called Afghan Women United, was created for Afghan women who
obtained refugee status abroad following the Taliban's return to power
in Afghanistan in twenty twenty one. Upon regaining power, the
Taliban banned women's sports across the nation and the Afghan
Football Federation stopped acknowledging the women's team. The new team
was formed after three selection camps were held across Europe
(03:01):
and Australia. US based refugees were not allowed to take
part after FIFA cited safety concerns as a reason for
not making a similar camp available. In a FIFA press release,
former Afghanistan captain Khalida Popol said, in part quote for
these players, representing Afghanistan is about identity, dignity, and hope.
This moment also shows that when we stand united, we
(03:21):
can achieve more.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Friend at the show, Hailey Carter, president of Soccer ops
for the Washington Spirit, also wrote a FIFA's decision, saying
on Instagram quote, I had the privilege of coaching the
Afghan women, and I also helped coordinate their evacuation. I've
thought about those players a lot over the last four years.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Today is a good day.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Permitted to compete in FIFA competitions isn't a ceremonial gesture.
It's a legitimate pathway. It means the next generation of
Afghan women has somewhere to play, and that matters more
than people realize to every Afghan woman, whoever put on
that kit, whether you got one cap or twenty, whether
the world was watching or no one was, you kept
the program alive by refusing to disappear.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
This victory is yours.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Sport doesn't fix geopolitics, but it can outlast them. Afghan
Women United proved it and FIFA finally caught up end quote.
FIFA will now fund a training camp for the Afghan
team this summer in New Zealand. More soccer, The NWSL
confirmed on Wednesday that the league will continue to operate
under its current spring to fall format through the twenty
(04:22):
thirty season. Now, we previously mentioned some reporting that the
league was set to vote on whether to flip its
schedule to be fall to spring, which would align with
most international leagues, but in a statement on Wednesday, the
league pointed to the strong momentum and growth they've achieved
with the current structure, noting that they'll continue to assess
the decision down the line. Per ESPN's Jeff Ksoof, the
decision to stick with the current schedule was made during
(04:43):
a board meeting on Tuesday, but a vote wasn't held
because it was clear that the proposal to flip didn't
have the required numbers to pass. We'll link to Jeff's
story in the show notes, which includes additional details on
the process to college softball, where Oklahoma softball is back
in the number one spot, at least according to a
couple of softball's many national pools. The Sooners leapfrog now
(05:04):
number two Nebraska and this week's Softball America rankings after
sweeping number fifteen Georgia last weekend, and they're also now
sitting in first in the SEC conference standings with the
regular season concluding this weekend and the conference tournament beginning
next Tuesday. Oklahoma freshman Kendall Wells also made a little
history over the weekend, hitting a first pitch home run
to break the Sooners single season home run record, her
(05:26):
thirty sixth of the season. Wells is also now just
one home run short of tying the NCAA's all time
single season home run record, a record set by Arizona's
Laura Espinoza back in nineteen ninety six. Wells could tie
or break that record as soon as tonight. Oklahoma has
a three game series against number Texas A and M
(05:46):
this weekend, with Game one getting underway tonight at nine
pm Eastern. Oh, sorry, what ranking is Texas A and M.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Twelve slash fourteen? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
There are so many conflicting college softball rankings that teams
use more than one, like number six slash eight Florida,
or even number seventeen slash fourteen Georgia. It's not confusing
at all toops. We mentioned earlier this week that some
training camp comments from the Indiana Fever's Kelsey Mitchell made
it unclear if she would actually play for International League
(06:17):
Project B this fall. The league said she would, but
Mitchell sounded like she wanted to stay stateside. The Indiana
Fever guard has now clarified her statements, telling Front Office
Sports that playing for Project B, a touring league with
seven two week long tournaments around the world, isn't the
same as her previous experience playing for pro teams based
in Egypt, Israel, Spain, and China. Mitchell said, quote, there's
(06:38):
a big difference, and I think people recognize what that
difference is. Project B gives you a chance to do both,
go in and come out, whereas with the overseas basketball
you got to be over there eight months or seven
months just to get everything you want.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Speaking of Mitchell, the five eight guard will likely take
the court tonight in the Indiana Fever's second preseason game,
this one against the Dallas Wings, and it's the King's
first preseason game with their new lineup editions, including first
round draft pick Asy Fudd and last year's co Defensive
Player of the Year Elana Smith, who came to Dallas
from the Minnesota Links. Tip Off is at seven pm
Eastern more hoops. The New York Liberty announced on Tuesday
(07:14):
they've resigned guard Marine Johannes. The French player has played
off and on for the Liberty since twenty nineteen, taking
a few seasons off for covid or to focus on
national team play and overseas commitments. She reportedly signed a
one year minimum contract worth two hundred and seventy seven
thousand dollars more w and some tough news for two players.
The Golden State Valkyrie announced Tuesday that Kate Martin has
(07:35):
been diagnosed by the team's medical staff with a Grade
two quad strain.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Now, the Valks don't have any.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
More preseason games, but their season opens next Friday, May eighth,
So depending on what the evaluation early next week says,
the twenty five year old Martin could be at risk
of missing the season opener. Will keep you posted over
At the Phoenix Mercury, forward Katherine Westbell tore her right
acl while playing overseas in Hungary. She'll miss the entire
twenty twenty sixth season. We're sending her up are best
(08:00):
wishes and fast healing. Finally some fun off court w
News Indiana Fever Guard Caitlin Clark is adding published author
to her resume. She's announced an upcoming children's book about
her life called Extraordinary, A Little Extra to Reach Big Dreams.
It'll feature a rhyming message about quote the foundation of
her success on and off the basketball court that love
(08:21):
and joy matter most end quote.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
It's set to be published by Random House.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Books for young readers on November third, and for the
adult w fans, Kelsey Plum's Got You Covered. The Los
Angeles Sparks Guard is teamed up with Makers Mark to
create a custom private selection bourbon called Yam Jam, said
to open with aromas of bright chili, spice and citrus,
followed by notes of sweet potato pie, toasted pecan, and
soft baking spices. It'll be available beginning May seventh that
(08:47):
select retailers in LA and a portion of the sales
to benefit the LA Fire Department. Now there's a bit
of a personal connection for Plum there. Her brother Daniel,
is a firefighter for the nearby Ocean Side Fire Department. Now,
if you're listening, Kelsey or Makers mark that matter. Bianca
would love to be an official Taste tester.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
We got to take a break. When we come back,
Big Citrus.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Celebrates four hundred and fifty and looks ahead to five
hundred and beyond. Stick around, Welcome back Slices, Alex Bianca,
get in here.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Hey, hi there.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Can you guys believe that in less than two years,
our little baby pod has reached four hundred and fifty episodes.
We blew past Mary Tyler Moore and Three's Company, We
cruised past the office and friends. We gave cheers in Dallas,
the old Yusain Bolt head turn, and now we're right
up there with Gray's Anatomy, and we're chasing down Law
(09:47):
and Order and of course always the Goat Saturday Night Live,
which actually passed one thousand episodes in January.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
But I mean they had just a little little head start,
little head start.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, decades and maybe one day someday we'll catch up
to Terry Gross. She's only done, you know, somewhere between
fifteen thousand and eighteen thousand interviews during her fifty years
of posting Fresh Air. I can't decide if I actually
want to try to achieve eighteen thousand episodes, but for now.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
We'll say yes, we're enjoying it for now.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
My favorite part of that is that to not have
a set number between fifteen thousand and eighteen thousand, like
a three thousand episode.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Wiggle room is crazy to me.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Yeah, So do you think that we are anybody's comfort
show like Grey's Anatomy or Law and Order? You know,
it's hard because I feel like a comfort show is
usually a rewatch.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Ooh, that's a hot take. That's how I usually hear it.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah. I mean to think that you can have something
that you go to that's pure and enjoyable, and you
watch when you need to be in a good mood,
and even if you haven't seen the episode, you still
expect that. But I think the term comfort show usually
is like a show you've already watched that you go
back to in the need.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And I'm wondering if we are that for any anybody else. Oh,
I would love that.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I have heard people say they've gone back to listen
to episodes that they'd already heard before. So maybe that's
the case, And certainly hopefully there are many of you
that haven't emailed us that agree that we're your first
listen every morning, because we certainly get a lot of
those emails people who say that.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
That's how they start their day, which we love.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I mean, not one thousand, not eighteen thousand, but four
hundred and fifty is still impressive, to be honest. Though
more impressive is those folks who have told us that
they've listened to every single one.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
We salute you, we thank you. We frankly exist because
of you, So thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Slices Alex Bianca, any recent episodes you want to shout out, like,
obviously we've done a couple of little mini celebrations for
two hundred and two fifty and stuff, But what about
more recently.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Well, I have to be transparent.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
I've only been here for seventy eight of the four
hundred and fifty episodes.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
That is a measly seventeen percent.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
But I would say Fish's monologue about Transjoy on trans
Day of Visibility stood out to me as just such
a well done kind of a comfort show. Speaking of
comfort shows, I think that's one that I've gone back
to listen to. I listened to it in the episode.
I listened to it on social media. That is an
evergreen message for sure. Sarah, your conversation at the end
(12:21):
of the Cheryl strad episode where you were talking about
your presidential campaign absolutely killed me. And then Swin cash
Is episode back at the beginning of this year was
such a good listen. If you haven't listened to it,
I implore you to get a notebook out and a
pen and press play.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Swins Got Bars.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
For sure, I'm gonna jump in just because I want
to build on what you said about Cheryl Strad, Like,
two of my faves were definitely Cheryl Straight and Kristen Kish,
which I think tells you that as much as I
love straight up sports, I also just really like talking
to clever, interesting, smart, thoughtful people. And I also love charlie'
ledger Walker just found her so joyful.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
And then all the Olympics.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Episodes for me, like that was a bucket list thing
to get to cover and then to get to do
it with Alex and like learn so much about all
the things while we were seeing them in person.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
That to me was also really special.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
What about you, el, Yeah, obviously the Olympics were a highlight. Honestly,
the other day I was having some like Olympic nostalgia.
I was like, I wish I was back in Italy
walking up the side of the road with a suitcase
and trying not to get hit by a car.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Like it was still a little scary.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
In the moment, but like I would give a lot
to be back there right now.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
That's why they always say it's either a good day
or a good story exact.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Maybe it wasn't a good time in the moment, but
it's always a good story later exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Or attitude is the difference between an ordeal and an adventure.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
There you go, Alex that Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Love that you mentioned Charlie Sledger Walker though that was
a favorite of mine. In fact, I think all of
the college basketball ones. I love Shay Ralph and michaeleb Blakes.
You know, I have a soft spot for any time
that you have a coach coming on and talking about
how much they love the player in front of that player.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
And then also Rory Harmon Rory.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
We all loved Rory.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
As of this recording on Wednesday at three o'clock, she
is still hanging on that Mystics roster, and that's how
it's going to start.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
You had some news.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
I was like, no, not our girl.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Well, I do have an honorable mention. Let's hear it.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Honorable mention to Serving Daddy an Unhinged, unrivaled draft preview
with r fight Master and Aaron Foley that aired before
I joined the team, and I was listening to it
in public on the sidewalk and I just doubled over laughing.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
I just love that episode. Thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
That is also, by far one of my favorites. And
I like everyone in a while to take the training
wheels off and ride downhill.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
I also love hearing from people when they're like, I
was listening to your episode this morning and I started
laughing in public, and I'm like, that's all I want
in life is to make you laugh in an uncomfortable position.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
That's what we want, speaking of as we continue to evolve,
we do want to hear what makes you laugh in public,
what makes you think, what makes you cry, what makes
you happy.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
We want to tell the stories you want to hear.
We want to cover the leagues and sports that you're
interested in.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So there will be a survey coming your way soon
to help guide what the next four to fifty looks
like we did a survey way back early when the
show started, but we want to do that again and
get your feedback in the meantime before the survey goes
out as we're still sort of making it. You're always
welcome to send us your thoughts via email, so good
game at wondermedianetwork dot com if you want to chime
in on what the next few episodes look like.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
But you know, before we look ahead.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I think we should look back because the summer of
twenty twenty four isn't that long ago, and yet the
women's sports space has seen some major changes. Just a
couple of things we all brainstormed and came up with.
The PWHL had just wrapped its very first season. There
were still only twelve WNBA teams and fourteen NWSL teams.
Unrivaled was just being announced months away from first tip off.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
None of us really knew what it was going to
be or if it was going to work.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
NWSL expansion team cost was still less than one hundred
million dollars. There was no Women's Across League, no Northern
Super League, no Love Pro Volleyble, no MLV. The WPBL
wasn't even on our radar. Asy Fud was still recovering
from our acl tair. They hadn't won the title, she
hadn't graduated and gotten drafted. There's just so much growth,
and it's interesting sometimes to be in this space where
(16:13):
we know about all of it, but to be talking
to people outside of it and they'll be like, wait what,
there's going to be a baseball league, or wait what
there's a lacrosse league. Like there's still so much growth
that can happen even in those spaces that have seen
this leap in the last two years.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
So that's really exciting.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
And I also feel like we're all just kind of
in a different place from when the show started.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I mean, Bianco wasn't even with us. No, I was
still covering men's sports. That's how long ago it was, Alex.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Before I came into Brighton every moment of your life.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I mean, hey, it's sad that the first thing I
thought of was, oh, my National Parks past still had
a picture of nature on the front of it.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
But that's where we were folks.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh no, we used to put like a bison on
our National Park announcestead we put a human face, and
that has created an entire economy of like little sleeves
that you could put your pass in that cover just
part of it so that you don't have to see
I don't know a person's face when you're enjoying our
national wonders.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
What was I doing?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
I was still toiling away on my first book, trying
to finish writing it while we launched this show, which
was a good time, and now it's about to be
in paperback, so there we go. Yeah, a lot has changed,
and I have to say, like, it's been a real
delight getting to spend so much time in the women's
sports space, surrounded by people who I always say this,
but you know, I was built to swim upstream, but
(17:38):
it's been really nice the last couple of years to
swim with everyone in the same direction and follow the
flow like a little lazy river instead after many, many years.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Of having to swim upstream.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I think as we look around the space, we feel super,
super super excited about the continued growth and investment. The
NCAA space may be a little bit murkier. There's some
real fears, I think about the pipeline for Alympic Sports
and threats to Title nine.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
So we're going to continue to address that on.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
The show and cover it, and of course we'll continue
to talk about the ever evolving policies impacting trans athletes
and inclusion or lack thereof, But it does feel like
in the women's pro leagues were on steadier ground in
almost every way. Investment, engagement, awareness, coverage, all of it
is up.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Which is why it really stood out.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
To us and Alex in particular, when we were listening
to WNBA commission Kathy Engelbert to the presser on the
CBA negotiations and seem to reveal a mindset that's very antiquated.
It had us kind of worried about league leadership. Take
a listen to the part we're talking about. Kathy was
asked what she learned from the negotiations, and here's part.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Of her answer.
Speaker 6 (18:41):
Ultimately, we wanted to kind of strike this great balance
between significant increases and player salaries and benefits with the
economic sustainability of the league.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Because women's sports is.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Very fragile and can be very fragile, and we wanted
to make sure we were setting this leaku up not
just for the next six seven years under the CBA,
but for the next CBA, which is why you know,
you saw some things games going up over time, housing
phasing out over time, things like that to set up
the professionalism of the league.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
So of course there's a lot of things we learned.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Okay, fragile, Alex, I'm going to give you the floor
here because when you heard that, I thought I saw
a little steam.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Coming out of your head.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Oh, one hundred percent boiling water was underneath the surface.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
No.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
I actually could not believe that she said that, and
it took me a while. Actually, I haven't watched her
press conference in full. People were talking about the comments
that she had made about her adult children and their
housing expenses, about her pulling the gender card out when
asked about the future of her job, and so I
think there were some other headlines from it. But wow,
when I tell you, I could write a book about
(19:46):
how the word fragility has been used in women's pro
sports history.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
It goes back a really long time.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
And the first story that actually came to mind is
one from Megan Burke, now the executive director of the
NWSL Players Association, and she has a story that she's
told I think maybe even on this show, but back
when she was playing in the WUSA, there was a
day when the players basically came in for a meeting
and were told that they had to take a twenty
five percent pay cut by five o'clock that day or.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Else the league was going to fold.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
And if they didn't say yes to that, then they
shouldn't even bother coming to training the next day. So
they agreed to take the pay cut, and you know
what happened. Anyway, the league folded later that year. Because
anytime that we have seen a league make that type
of proposition to the players, it is a sign of instability.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
And we saw it too with the Yates Report.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I think this is why I have such a strong
reaction to the use of the word fragility. Is just
reading through the Yates Report, which, for those folks who
are newer to the space, was the report in twenty
twenty two that Sally Yates did into the NWSL and
the allegations of abuse against coaches and other leaders in
that league. And I'm going to read a section of
(20:58):
it actually because I think it will kind of get
at the point trying to make here quote. Players were
also repeatedly enlisted in the effort to keep the league
afloat by protecting it from scandal, and were told to
be grateful that they had an opportunity to play professional
soccer at all. The threat of the team or league
failure was acute and persistent. The NWSL was the third
attempt to field a women's professional league and was established
(21:19):
with low capital requirements to ensure the league had eight teams.
Many teams seemed to be one bad season away from shuddering.
Players reported being told by federation leadership and certain team
owners that the league was not commercially successful enough to
warrant for their financial investment, and that the only way
to ensure the league's survival.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Was for players to support the league. End quote.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
And one of the themes that came out after the Yates
report was players talking about how this fear of fragility,
this fear of failure, was one of the reasons that
they didn't speak up. They didn't want to be the
one to raise their hand and say, hey, there are
major problems here, and next thing you know, the league
goes under. So to hear Kathy you the word fragility,
(22:01):
I just found it shocking because, don't get me wrong,
it's completely appropriate to have sound financial figures guiding you forward.
But if she thinks that the WNBA is fragile with
all of the MNBA owners, that she has gotten a board,
that's bad. And I don't think it's accurately depicting the reality.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
I think it's just one of the negotiation.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Tactics that we saw the league use in order to
keep players from demanding more in the latest CBA.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, I mean it feels like something we were talking about.
I remember back when we talked.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
To Alicia Clark as the negotiations were underway at the
end of last season. The conversation was, how do you,
out of one side of your mouth, tell these prospective
owners that they should be battling for expansion team rights
in the hundreds of million dollars while simultaneously saying that
the league is not a good investment and that it
is on unsteady footing.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
And that's what this feels like. Right during negotiations.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Let's tell everybody that we can't possibly afford to stay
afloat if we give the players all the demands they're
asking for. But at the same time, those billionaires who
are invested in a million spaces are seeing this space
as one where they want to put their money. They're
seeing this space as one with exponential growth, and it
is frustrating for all the reasons that you mentioned, Alex,
(23:17):
I would say you could also go back even further
the word fragility, referring obviously to our uteruses and what
will happen to them if we play sport, but specifically
when it comes to financial standing and future success. It's
something we always talk about with men's potential, investing in
what's next, investing in a belief that people will show
(23:38):
up and care about it and like it even when
proved otherwise. Whereas on the women's side, not letting the
success of say the US women's national teams selling out
major stadiums for their own friendly tour that they had
to put on for themselves after the ninety nine ers,
one like those moments didn't make you say, ooh, if
we put a little bit more into this, we'll be
(23:58):
able to keep, you know, building, instead always falling back
on antiquated ideas that there wasn't enough there to grow on.
And I do agree with you, it is really upsetting
for the person in charge to be the one putting
that narrative out there.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, for sure, And I think too.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
That's not to say that even in a successful league
that there can't be financial instability.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
That's something that we've known about men's sports for a
long time, which is that a lot of these teams
that have massive valuations, that doesn't mean that they're bringing
in a profit every year. It is expensive to operate
a team, It is expensive to operate a league. And
yet what we saw in the early years of women's
sports was that they expected people to show up to
games without any marketing budget, without any type of promotional opportunities,
(24:43):
and then when folks didn't, they blamed the players.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
And so thankfully we have seen these.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Leagues spend more money, invest more money on the things
that you need to do in order to get butts
and seats. And so I think that's also why the
fragility argument stuck with me, was because if you think
of it as fragile, than what are you not willing
to spend money on?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, And I mean I think a key point in
that is when men's leagues take a step back, or
when specific teams in a league struggle, the immediate answer
isn't blame the product.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Shut it down.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
This isn't going to work, whereas in women's leagues much
much smaller losses are pointed to as a reason not
to believe in the future of the sport, or fan
showing up or anything else. And yeah, we'll keep an
eye on whether that was just her having that stuck
in her head from months of using it in negotiations,
or whether it's something that will actually inform her behavior
(25:34):
and decision making as she continues to be at.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
The top of this league.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
It's worth noting, by the way, that we can push
back on the quote unquote fragile narrative without ignoring that
there is room for growth and a real need, as
you mentioned Alex, for the data and revenue to catch
up to investment and enthusiasm. I think we had MLV
commissioner Jamie Weston on and she had the perfect phrase
for it.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Don't confuse momentum with maturity.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's great that everything is headed in this positive direction,
but that doesn't mean that we're at a place necessarily
where we can keep up with men's leagues. And I think,
you know, Christina Ltz of the NSL Northern Super League,
Canada's league said the same thing, like we want to
do all the things our fans want us to and
also the expectation that we're already on par with leagues
that have one hundred year head start is kind of unfair, right,
(26:19):
We still need some time to build up to that.
So how do we talk about the lows during this
extremely high time? How do we talk about things like
empty seats in stadiums or ratings numbers that we wish
were higher? Super Slice Amanda Vallo, also our chief accessibility officer,
brought up this very issue in a recent email, and
she wrote, in part quote, after listening to the show
(26:40):
with Andrea Brimmer, it seems pretty clear the business of
women's sports is expanding exponentially and sponsors are showing up
thanks to greater accessibility, social media presence, values, alignment, popularity,
et cetera. I was flying high, getting in the game,
doing my slice work, tuning into the evening Love playoff match,
and then needed my crash out jar.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Lots of empty seats.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
These are elite athletes and competitors, and the arena is
only half full. I experienced something similar coming off an
amazing Denver Summit kickoff event and later tuning into an
Orlando Pride match where I was able to spot and
pick out my friend in her seat only two seasons
removed from a championship, MARTA's on the pitch and the
crowd is dead. My question is, how do I talk
(27:20):
intelligently about this? How do I reconcile what I know
to be true that women's sports are awesome and amazing,
and at times the hype or reported data doesn't pass
the eyeball test.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Amanda is our best emailer. Everyone else is amazing, but
she always comes through funny, smart, thoughtful with all the references,
and she's so spot on here, and it's something that
I think we do have to acknowledge. And in that
conversation with Andrew, I think we wanted to pivot from
just celebrating.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Their fifty to fifty to what does that look like next?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
And how will we keep fans from getting phased out
and priced out, and how will we keep investment and
revenue and profit and everything up on.
Speaker 5 (27:59):
The same level with the enthusiasm so bianco Yeah, I mean,
I think women's sports, despite being as Amanda said, looking
awesome and amazing, they're up against real world challenges of
unemployment rates and people not having funds to spend on
leisure activities and the money that people do have, they
(28:21):
are putting what they can toward women's sports. But I
think that it's just a reality of where this country
in particular is right now because of everything else going on.
Even though more teams are getting investments and we are
seeing this amazing growth, there's also this reality of you
got to have money in your pocket to be able
(28:43):
to get your button the seat.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I always think of the context here, like one, I
call it out when you see it, like I don't
think that we can be supporters of women's sports without
acknowledging the reality that sometimes they fall short, whether that's
it in how many people show up to a game.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
Or how many people are tuning in.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
For me, I always want to know the context though,
because again a lot of times in history, we've seen
people blame the product versus how much was the marketing budget?
What else is going on in this city today? What
network was it put on or is it just on streaming?
Like there are all of these other factors that can
result in awareness, and so call it out when you
(29:25):
see it, but also ask why did.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
This come to be?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Because I don't think it's inherent that only two thousand
people show up to a game, right, Like, there's a
reason only two thousand people showed up.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, the Orlando Pride are a tough one because I
think a lot of us are watching from afar.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
Like it's smarta, Like, look at all the talent that
you have. It's Barbara Banda, get out there.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
But yeah, there's so many factors to take into account, Alex,
and I'm in particular, I'm not super knowledgeable about the
stadium and the area and all the other factors that
go into play there. But one thing I'll say is
that I do have a little bit of panic when
I turn on the TV and I see empty seats
for games in a way that I don't for things
like Major League Baseball. And yet there are so many
(30:05):
Major League Baseball teams that have entire sections completely empty,
and they've had a eighty ninety year head start. So
it's not something to be ignored when somewhere doesn't have
full seats and people aren't showing up. But it is
not something to panic over. It's a part of a
larger conversation about how these leagues will continue to grow.
(30:27):
I do think Bianca's point is spot on, not just
the cost of tickets and concessions and everything else, but
gas now to get to the game that you're going
to right, And I think the facility is being owned
by the teams will help with all of this when
they can profit off parking and food and beverage and
everything else, as opposed to giving a massive cut to
(30:48):
somebody else before they can even start to make money
back off of all the fans showing up. That's going
to make it easier, I think, to not be quite
so freaked out about whether they hit a certain number
for each game, but you're leading for everything even when
it's not good.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Isn't the answer, And for a long time it felt
like it was.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
We had to counteract such toxicity in the space by
promoting all the good stuff and highlighting the great stories
and the players and everything else. Now we're in a
position where this will be more professionalized and more well
received if we're willing to acknowledge when things aren't done
right at the very highest levels, all the way down
to the marketing and the people not showing up. And
(31:27):
I think the sign of a solid foundation is when
a league will be able to start to hold teams
accountable for not reaching certain metrics. The NWSL's new deal
has in place expectations for certain things by a certain date.
The WNBA has demands to its teams that you have
to hit this level of facility and this level of
(31:48):
resources by this date, and they'll start holding teams to
account and that will eventually make a much better environment
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
But in the meantime, it'll.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Be a little sticky, especially in the places that aren't
spending on their marketing and aren't you know, telling fans
why to come and where to be. And we should
call those places out because they're letting their fan bases
down and they're letting their players down. But Amanda, in
the meantime, you asked, how do I talk intelligently about this? Well,
one way to shut up people who seem to use
a different metric for women's sports and men's is to
(32:18):
bring up some of the numbers from the men's teams
that also struggle to put butts in seats.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
You know, MLS attendants. FC Dallas, the least.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Attended team in the league last year, had an average
of eleven thousand fans. Or if you want to go
to something with a much much, much, much longer head
start the Oakland A's Now, to be fair, there's a
lot going on with Oakland and the removal of the team,
but they had the lowest total attendance at MLB last year.
They only averaged about eleven five hundred and twenty eight fans.
(32:46):
So you're looking at a team that has decades decades
to build and the Tampa Bay Rays barely beat them
out by just a couple hundred people.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And so those are mlbts.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
So I think you can point to places that are
also struggling from the same issues with getting fans, butts
and seats and the fact that no one's calling for
MLS or MLB or any of these men's leaks to
shut down. So let's wrap this up on our four
hundred and fiftieth episode. And I like to end on
a positive, So let's start with the things we are
worried about.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Let's not cheerlead.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Let's also discuss some of the realistic things to worry about.
For me, I've been talking about them, you know, the
last week or two, in particular with the Columbus expansion
team on the NWSL side, I'm a little worried about
male led ownership groups and NFL ownership groups coming into
the women's space, people who don't have that same touch
point with the women's space and women athletes, and also
with US dominance waning when it comes to global sports
(33:44):
soccer and other sports where other countries are catching up
to us. Does some of the enthusiasm that stems from
intense patriotism and love of our dominance mean that the
interest will wane if we are getting beaten in Olympic
and World Cup and World Championship level events.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
So that's something to keep an eye. I hope that's
not the case. We like to win stuff here in America,
that's true.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
I think we should also just call out that, like
waning interest is natural in a way, you know, we
saw it with a WNBA still to this day, the
high watermarks for the WNBA in terms of attendance and
viewership are from those very early seasons in the nineties,
and so do we expect that the league's current level
(34:29):
of momentum is going to hold on forever? Probably not.
And so I think like what is being done intentionally
behind the scenes to make sure that things are being
done to keep people tuning in, to keep people showing
up to games and to not kind of hit the
panic button if we see those decreases.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Worth noting, by the way, the drop in interest after
the earliers of the w was because of suppression, right,
So making sure that first of all, there isn't intentional
suppression by moving it to lesser networks or giving it,
you know, worse time slots, but also to continue to
increase and work on driving engagement and growth so that
there isn't a free gat or panic if there is
(35:07):
a wane and interest after this big boom around the CBA.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
Yeah, and should we even be looking at TV viewership
numbers and comparing them to the nineties.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I mean, if you want to.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
See three point how many people watch Survivor finalees twenty
years ago versus now and they still call that show
number one show? Why don't we get that kind of
treatment here in women's sports?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Okay, really quick? What are we most excited about?
Speaker 5 (35:29):
Well, speaking of Marta, if you're not watching her on
the field, here is an amazing opportunity to potentially end
her career watching her at the World Cup next year
in Brazil. I am so excited to see how Brazilians
South America large, the world at large react to seeing
her on the pitch.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Wow, you're really leaning into that story. I hope that's true.
I hope that's true.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Are you dadding Marta Sarah? Well, she hasn't said for
sure she's coming back.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
She just retired and then unretired to play in a
game last year.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
So listen.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
If Marta and Alison Felix aren't there respective country's flag
bearers at LA twenty twenty eight, then yeah, we're doing
something wrong.
Speaker 5 (36:11):
I feel like Lindsay Vaughn needs to start a consulting
company where she just advises all the people who watched
her and we're like, wait a minute, hold up, we
can come back.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Let's let's do it. Old Knees Incorporated. There we go. Yeah,
I mean summer games in LA.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
I'm excited about the idea of it, But every time
I think about it, I think about like an opening
ceremony with Kid Rock and like Trump and a throne,
and I'm like, ugh, like, what's our Like Olympic anthem
gonna be like an AI generated country music song about
like trucks and hot dogs.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I just it's hard to get as excited as.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I would be if if instead, you know, Madam President
was up there representing the best of.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Us, I couldn't have said it better myself, Sarah. People
keep asking me like, oh, are you guys gonna go
cover the LA Olympics, And I'm like, uh, I'm like
thinking of like riding around these like nice little waying
to Italian villages, and I'm like trying to imagine that
in LA and just not feeling the vibes quite as much.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
But we'll see, all right, Well.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
We tried to end on a positive note, and Oh,
I'm excited about the thirtieth season for the WNBA. I'm
excited about all the throwback opportunities. I'm excited about the
new rosters. I'm excited to see what happens in the
Love Volleyball MLV Professional Volleyball space. I'm really excited to
see Allison Felix's come back.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I'm really excited for.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
The PWHL playoffs and the expansion teams, hopefully one of
which is in Chicago. There is a ton I'm excited
for the first women's professional Baseball League action. So there's
just it's almost like we take it for granted because there's.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
So much good stuff.
Speaker 5 (37:42):
Alex Bianca, thank you for hopping on to talk four fifty.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
We got to take a break. When we get back,
get your soapbox ready. As if we weren't just on one,
we found another one to jump on.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Stick around. Welcome Max Slices.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
We love that you're listening, but we want you to
get in the game every day too, So here's our
good game play of the day. We know y'all make
up the bedrock of women's sports fan groups and communities
across the country. You're out at games and watch parties
every weekend, whether you're repping the team just down the
road or you're crossing state lines to go see a
particular team or star in action. You know which cities
are doing women's sports best, and you know which ones
(38:25):
are still trying to catch up.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
So as we see spots across.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
The US state claim to being the quote epicenter of
women's sports, like multiple reps for cities using that exact language.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
We started to wonder who actually deserves that title.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
So we actually discovered that friend of the show, Meg
Lenahan of The Athletic recruited the sites women's sports reporters
to deliver their list of the top women's sports cities
in America. But we want to hear from the people
in the seats, not press row. So you slices will
help us decide which US city actually is the epicenter
of women's sports. Now, we're going to put together a
(38:58):
bracket to settle this, but we need your missions first.
We need to know if your city should make the bracket.
Did you recently visit another city that totally wowed you
with its women's sports. We want to hear about the
big cities that might be obvious contenders and the smaller
towns that may still be a hidden gem.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
The place is with amazing college.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Teams and traditions, the spots with incredible history we might
not know, and the towns that are building the future
and setting the standard. This is your chance to be
the pr team, the agent that every athlete deserves. So
get out there and hustle to make sure your city
makes the cut. So send us an email good game
at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at
eight seven two two oh four fifty seventy to share
(39:38):
your thoughts and your reasons for your city or a
city you've been to and We're going to collect them
all and put them in a big old bracket. Now
we'll save the format for how the cities advance for
another show. For now, you've got your marching orders. Speaking
of marching orders, don't forget to subscribe, Rate and review.
It's real easy watch funding the potential of men while
(39:59):
ignoring the perform or of women. Rating sixty out of
one hundred cents review. Cassidy Licktmann, friend of the show,
former Team USA Volleyball player and current VP of Volleyball
and Athlete Engagement and Athletes Unlimited, recently wrote a fascinating
post on LinkedIn. She wrote about an NIL stat she
learned at a conference, and I'm going to read in
full because I think Cassidy nailed it. She wrote quote,
(40:21):
I'm at the Peak Sports Tech conference this week and
was listening to Open Door CEO Stephen Denton talk about
the state of NIL when it comes to actual NIL
deals ie money from brands, not schools. Female NCAA athletes
received sixty cents on every dollar spent. Brands are recognizing
the value of female athletes, the intention with which they
approach content creation and their platforms, and the engagement of
(40:44):
their fans over the same from male athletes, and this
tracks with data from properties like CrossFit or snow League
that had athletes of both genders from the start and
saw the female athletes garner larger followings.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Here's the other side of it, though.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
The money coming from the schools through revenue share is
obviously going overwhelmingly to male athletes who play in revenue
generating sports, and you might say that's fair.
Speaker 5 (41:06):
But this brings me to two thoughts. Why do women
have to work for money but men just have to
play for it.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
If female athletes are more marketable than male athletes, and
yet men's sports are bringing in more revenue than women's sports,
maybe the problem is we're just not marketing women's sports.
Maybe if we put the same kind of resources behind
women's sports as men's, they'd actually be more popular. The
question now, though, is if we'll even be allowed to
test that theory in the NIL and revenue share era,
(41:33):
As schools triple down on revenue sports, the growth of
most women's sports and men's Olympic sports is more likely
to be stunted due to lack of investment. It's great
that NIL money is coming from brands to female athletes.
But how much more money might be coming to female
athletes and in revenue to schools if we invested in
women's sports like men's end quote. Now, this is the
(41:55):
story we've been telling for decades. Men got a century
plus head start and continue to be invested in, covered,
and promoted based on that, while women aren't even given
the chance to prove that they can compete for eyeballs
and interest and revenue. And on the occasions where they
succeed in spite of industry forces like I don't know,
the US women's national team or Caitlin Clark versus angel
Rees and the ncaattorney, it's often seen as a fluke,
(42:18):
not a sign that more marketing, investment and attention could
produce more of the same. So good on you, Cassidy
for calling out just the latest iteration of a decade's
old problem. Now it's your turn, slics, rate and review.
Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good game, Alex and Bianca,
Good game, Amanda Valo. You anyone who says four point
(42:40):
fifty is kind of a random number to celebrate. We
missed four hundred because we were at the Olympics and
we don't feel like waiting for five hundred. Good Game
with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in
partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple, or wherever you get
(43:01):
your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Azzi and Bianca Hillier.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan
and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Lucy Jones,
Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer. Production assistant from Avery Loftus
and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain. Do you really
want to know where we were April twenty ninth.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
We were reading.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Tailor's New York Times interview, obviously, and prepping for today's celebration.
It's our four hundred and fiftieth episode, y'all. It's Thursday,
April thirtieth. The On today's show, Big Citrus gets together
to celebrate four fifty. We'll take a look back at
the Good Game archive, analyze how the women's sports landscape
has changed, even just since the show started in the
summer of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Talk about how.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
To discuss the highs and lows of the current women's
sportspoon and why we're so worried about WNBA Commissioner Katy
Engelbert's comments about quote unquote fragility. Then, of course, we
got to manifest what we want for the next four
hundred and fifty episodes, and we've got a little contest
we're cooking up too, plus a stunning upset in Spain,
another acl bites the dust, and one WNBA star says cheers.
(00:53):
It's all coming up right after this Welcome back slices.
Here's what you need to know today. Let's start with
the PWHL, where the Walter Cup playoffs get underway tonight
with number two Boston hosting number four Ottawa for Game
(01:14):
one of their best of five semi final series. That's
a seven pm Eastern puck drop. Recent history tells us
it might be a long one. During the regular season,
all four games between Boston and Ottawa went into overtime,
with the Charge ultimately winning three of the four. Ottawa's
looking at clinch a spot in the PWHL finals for
a second straight year, while Boston is looking to make
(01:35):
it back to the finals for the first time since
twenty twenty four. Meantime, Game one of the other semi
final series between number one Montreal and number three Minnesota
isn't till Saturday. In both semi final series, Boston and
Montreal will be looking to shake the PWHL's higher seed
playoff curse. During the first two years of the league,
the lower seeded team has won all four playoff semi finals.
(01:58):
To tennis, where world number the thirty Haley Baptiste continued
her stunning run at the Madrid Open on Tuesday, upsetting
world number one Arena sabaleaka two six six two, seven
to six. In the quarterfinals, the twenty four year old
American snapped Sabalaka's fifteen match win streak and she saved
six match points en route to her first ever win
over a top five opponent. She'll play in a WTA
(02:20):
one thousand semi final for the first time, taking on
world number nine Mira Andreva today at ten am Eastern.
Anastasia Potapova takes on Marte Kostyuk in the other quarterfinal
at three thirty pm Eastern to soccer. FIFA announced new
rules on Wednesday that will allow the Afghan women's refugee
team to compete as an official national team. The team,
(02:40):
called Afghan Women United, was created for Afghan women who
obtained refugee status abroad following the Taliban's return to power
in Afghanistan in twenty twenty one. Upon regaining power, the
Taliban banned women's sports across the nation and the Afghan
Football Federation stopped acknowledging the women's team. The new team
was formed after three selection camps were held across Europe
(03:01):
and Australia. US based refugees were not allowed to take
part after FIFA cited safety concerns as a reason for
not making a similar camp available. In a FIFA press release,
former Afghanistan captain Khalida Popol said, in part quote for
these players, representing Afghanistan is about identity, dignity, and hope.
This moment also shows that when we stand united, we
(03:21):
can achieve more.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Friend at the show, Hailey Carter, president of Soccer ops
for the Washington Spirit, also wrote a FIFA's decision, saying
on Instagram quote, I had the privilege of coaching the
Afghan women, and I also helped coordinate their evacuation. I've
thought about those players a lot over the last four years.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Today is a good day.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Permitted to compete in FIFA competitions isn't a ceremonial gesture.
It's a legitimate pathway. It means the next generation of
Afghan women has somewhere to play, and that matters more
than people realize to every Afghan woman, whoever put on
that kit, whether you got one cap or twenty, whether
the world was watching or no one was, you kept
the program alive by refusing to disappear.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
This victory is yours.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Sport doesn't fix geopolitics, but it can outlast them. Afghan
Women United proved it and FIFA finally caught up end quote.
FIFA will now fund a training camp for the Afghan
team this summer in New Zealand. More soccer, The NWSL
confirmed on Wednesday that the league will continue to operate
under its current spring to fall format through the twenty
(04:22):
thirty season. Now, we previously mentioned some reporting that the
league was set to vote on whether to flip its
schedule to be fall to spring, which would align with
most international leagues, but in a statement on Wednesday, the
league pointed to the strong momentum and growth they've achieved
with the current structure, noting that they'll continue to assess
the decision down the line. Per ESPN's Jeff Ksoof, the
decision to stick with the current schedule was made during
(04:43):
a board meeting on Tuesday, but a vote wasn't held
because it was clear that the proposal to flip didn't
have the required numbers to pass. We'll link to Jeff's
story in the show notes, which includes additional details on
the process to college softball, where Oklahoma softball is back
in the number one spot, at least according to a
couple of softball's many national pools. The Sooners leapfrog now
(05:04):
number two Nebraska and this week's Softball America rankings after
sweeping number fifteen Georgia last weekend, and they're also now
sitting in first in the SEC conference standings with the
regular season concluding this weekend and the conference tournament beginning
next Tuesday. Oklahoma freshman Kendall Wells also made a little
history over the weekend, hitting a first pitch home run
to break the Sooners single season home run record, her
(05:26):
thirty sixth of the season. Wells is also now just
one home run short of tying the NCAA's all time
single season home run record, a record set by Arizona's
Laura Espinoza back in nineteen ninety six. Wells could tie
or break that record as soon as tonight. Oklahoma has
a three game series against number Texas A and M
(05:46):
this weekend, with Game one getting underway tonight at nine
pm Eastern. Oh, sorry, what ranking is Texas A and M.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Twelve slash fourteen? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
There are so many conflicting college softball rankings that teams
use more than one, like number six slash eight Florida,
or even number seventeen slash fourteen Georgia. It's not confusing
at all toops. We mentioned earlier this week that some
training camp comments from the Indiana Fever's Kelsey Mitchell made
it unclear if she would actually play for International League
(06:17):
Project B this fall. The league said she would, but
Mitchell sounded like she wanted to stay stateside. The Indiana
Fever guard has now clarified her statements, telling Front Office
Sports that playing for Project B, a touring league with
seven two week long tournaments around the world, isn't the
same as her previous experience playing for pro teams based
in Egypt, Israel, Spain, and China. Mitchell said, quote, there's
(06:38):
a big difference, and I think people recognize what that
difference is. Project B gives you a chance to do both,
go in and come out, whereas with the overseas basketball
you got to be over there eight months or seven
months just to get everything you want.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Speaking of Mitchell, the five eight guard will likely take
the court tonight in the Indiana Fever's second preseason game,
this one against the Dallas Wings, and it's the King's
first preseason game with their new lineup editions, including first
round draft pick Asy Fudd and last year's co Defensive
Player of the Year Elana Smith, who came to Dallas
from the Minnesota Links. Tip Off is at seven pm
Eastern more hoops. The New York Liberty announced on Tuesday
(07:14):
they've resigned guard Marine Johannes. The French player has played
off and on for the Liberty since twenty nineteen, taking
a few seasons off for covid or to focus on
national team play and overseas commitments. She reportedly signed a
one year minimum contract worth two hundred and seventy seven
thousand dollars more w and some tough news for two players.
The Golden State Valkyrie announced Tuesday that Kate Martin has
(07:35):
been diagnosed by the team's medical staff with a Grade
two quad strain.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Now, the Valks don't have any.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
More preseason games, but their season opens next Friday, May eighth,
So depending on what the evaluation early next week says,
the twenty five year old Martin could be at risk
of missing the season opener. Will keep you posted over
At the Phoenix Mercury, forward Katherine Westbell tore her right
acl while playing overseas in Hungary. She'll miss the entire
twenty twenty sixth season. We're sending her up are best
(08:00):
wishes and fast healing. Finally some fun off court w
News Indiana Fever Guard Caitlin Clark is adding published author
to her resume. She's announced an upcoming children's book about
her life called Extraordinary, A Little Extra to Reach Big Dreams.
It'll feature a rhyming message about quote the foundation of
her success on and off the basketball court that love
(08:21):
and joy matter most end quote.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
It's set to be published by Random House.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Books for young readers on November third, and for the
adult w fans, Kelsey Plum's Got You Covered. The Los
Angeles Sparks Guard is teamed up with Makers Mark to
create a custom private selection bourbon called Yam Jam, said
to open with aromas of bright chili, spice and citrus,
followed by notes of sweet potato pie, toasted pecan, and
soft baking spices. It'll be available beginning May seventh that
(08:47):
select retailers in LA and a portion of the sales
to benefit the LA Fire Department. Now there's a bit
of a personal connection for Plum there. Her brother Daniel,
is a firefighter for the nearby Ocean Side Fire Department. Now,
if you're listening, Kelsey or Makers mark that matter. Bianca
would love to be an official Taste tester.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
We got to take a break. When we come back,
Big Citrus.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Celebrates four hundred and fifty and looks ahead to five
hundred and beyond. Stick around, Welcome back Slices, Alex Bianca,
get in here.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Hey, hi there.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Can you guys believe that in less than two years,
our little baby pod has reached four hundred and fifty episodes.
We blew past Mary Tyler Moore and Three's Company, We
cruised past the office and friends. We gave cheers in Dallas,
the old Yusain Bolt head turn, and now we're right
up there with Gray's Anatomy, and we're chasing down Law
(09:47):
and Order and of course always the Goat Saturday Night Live,
which actually passed one thousand episodes in January.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
But I mean they had just a little little head start,
little head start.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, decades and maybe one day someday we'll catch up
to Terry Gross. She's only done, you know, somewhere between
fifteen thousand and eighteen thousand interviews during her fifty years
of posting Fresh Air. I can't decide if I actually
want to try to achieve eighteen thousand episodes, but for now.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
We'll say yes, we're enjoying it for now.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
My favorite part of that is that to not have
a set number between fifteen thousand and eighteen thousand, like
a three thousand episode.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Wiggle room is crazy to me.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Yeah, So do you think that we are anybody's comfort
show like Grey's Anatomy or Law and Order? You know,
it's hard because I feel like a comfort show is
usually a rewatch.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Ooh, that's a hot take. That's how I usually hear it.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah. I mean to think that you can have something
that you go to that's pure and enjoyable, and you
watch when you need to be in a good mood,
and even if you haven't seen the episode, you still
expect that. But I think the term comfort show usually
is like a show you've already watched that you go
back to in the need.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And I'm wondering if we are that for any anybody else. Oh,
I would love that.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I have heard people say they've gone back to listen
to episodes that they'd already heard before. So maybe that's
the case, And certainly hopefully there are many of you
that haven't emailed us that agree that we're your first
listen every morning, because we certainly get a lot of
those emails people who say that.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
That's how they start their day, which we love.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
I mean, not one thousand, not eighteen thousand, but four
hundred and fifty is still impressive, to be honest. Though
more impressive is those folks who have told us that
they've listened to every single one.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
We salute you, we thank you. We frankly exist because
of you, So thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Slices Alex Bianca, any recent episodes you want to shout out, like,
obviously we've done a couple of little mini celebrations for
two hundred and two fifty and stuff, But what about
more recently.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Well, I have to be transparent.
Speaker 5 (11:50):
I've only been here for seventy eight of the four
hundred and fifty episodes.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
That is a measly seventeen percent.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
But I would say Fish's monologue about Transjoy on trans
Day of Visibility stood out to me as just such
a well done kind of a comfort show. Speaking of
comfort shows, I think that's one that I've gone back
to listen to. I listened to it in the episode.
I listened to it on social media. That is an
evergreen message for sure. Sarah, your conversation at the end
(12:21):
of the Cheryl strad episode where you were talking about
your presidential campaign absolutely killed me. And then Swin cash
Is episode back at the beginning of this year was
such a good listen. If you haven't listened to it,
I implore you to get a notebook out and a
pen and press play.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Swins Got Bars.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
For sure, I'm gonna jump in just because I want
to build on what you said about Cheryl Strad, Like,
two of my faves were definitely Cheryl Straight and Kristen Kish,
which I think tells you that as much as I
love straight up sports, I also just really like talking
to clever, interesting, smart, thoughtful people. And I also love charlie'
ledger Walker just found her so joyful.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
And then all the Olympics.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Episodes for me, like that was a bucket list thing
to get to cover and then to get to do
it with Alex and like learn so much about all
the things while we were seeing them in person.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
That to me was also really special.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
What about you, el, Yeah, obviously the Olympics were a highlight. Honestly,
the other day I was having some like Olympic nostalgia.
I was like, I wish I was back in Italy
walking up the side of the road with a suitcase
and trying not to get hit by a car.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Like it was still a little scary.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
In the moment, but like I would give a lot
to be back there right now.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
That's why they always say it's either a good day
or a good story exact.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Maybe it wasn't a good time in the moment, but
it's always a good story later exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Or attitude is the difference between an ordeal and an adventure.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
There you go, Alex that Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Love that you mentioned Charlie Sledger Walker though that was
a favorite of mine. In fact, I think all of
the college basketball ones. I love Shay Ralph and michaeleb Blakes.
You know, I have a soft spot for any time
that you have a coach coming on and talking about
how much they love the player in front of that player.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
And then also Rory Harmon Rory.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
We all loved Rory.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
As of this recording on Wednesday at three o'clock, she
is still hanging on that Mystics roster, and that's how
it's going to start.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
You had some news.
Speaker 4 (14:12):
I was like, no, not our girl.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Well, I do have an honorable mention. Let's hear it.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
Honorable mention to Serving Daddy an Unhinged, unrivaled draft preview
with r fight Master and Aaron Foley that aired before
I joined the team, and I was listening to it
in public on the sidewalk and I just doubled over laughing.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
I just love that episode. Thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
That is also, by far one of my favorites. And
I like everyone in a while to take the training
wheels off and ride downhill.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
I also love hearing from people when they're like, I
was listening to your episode this morning and I started
laughing in public, and I'm like, that's all I want
in life is to make you laugh in an uncomfortable position.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
That's what we want, speaking of as we continue to evolve,
we do want to hear what makes you laugh in public,
what makes you think, what makes you cry, what makes
you happy.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
We want to tell the stories you want to hear.
We want to cover the leagues and sports that you're
interested in.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
So there will be a survey coming your way soon
to help guide what the next four to fifty looks
like we did a survey way back early when the
show started, but we want to do that again and
get your feedback in the meantime before the survey goes
out as we're still sort of making it. You're always
welcome to send us your thoughts via email, so good
game at wondermedianetwork dot com if you want to chime
in on what the next few episodes look like.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
But you know, before we look ahead.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
I think we should look back because the summer of
twenty twenty four isn't that long ago, and yet the
women's sports space has seen some major changes. Just a
couple of things we all brainstormed and came up with.
The PWHL had just wrapped its very first season. There
were still only twelve WNBA teams and fourteen NWSL teams.
Unrivaled was just being announced months away from first tip off.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
None of us really knew what it was going to
be or if it was going to work.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
NWSL expansion team cost was still less than one hundred
million dollars. There was no Women's Across League, no Northern
Super League, no Love Pro Volleyble, no MLV. The WPBL
wasn't even on our radar. Asy Fud was still recovering
from our acl tair. They hadn't won the title, she
hadn't graduated and gotten drafted. There's just so much growth,
and it's interesting sometimes to be in this space where
(16:13):
we know about all of it, but to be talking
to people outside of it and they'll be like, wait what,
there's going to be a baseball league, or wait what
there's a lacrosse league. Like there's still so much growth
that can happen even in those spaces that have seen
this leap in the last two years.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
So that's really exciting.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
And I also feel like we're all just kind of
in a different place from when the show started.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
I mean, Bianco wasn't even with us. No, I was
still covering men's sports. That's how long ago it was, Alex.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Before I came into Brighton every moment of your life.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I mean, hey, it's sad that the first thing I
thought of was, oh, my National Parks past still had
a picture of nature on the front of it.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
But that's where we were folks.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Oh no, we used to put like a bison on
our National Park announcestead we put a human face, and
that has created an entire economy of like little sleeves
that you could put your pass in that cover just
part of it so that you don't have to see
I don't know a person's face when you're enjoying our
national wonders.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
What was I doing?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
I was still toiling away on my first book, trying
to finish writing it while we launched this show, which
was a good time, and now it's about to be
in paperback, so there we go. Yeah, a lot has changed,
and I have to say, like, it's been a real
delight getting to spend so much time in the women's
sports space, surrounded by people who I always say this,
but you know, I was built to swim upstream, but
(17:38):
it's been really nice the last couple of years to
swim with everyone in the same direction and follow the
flow like a little lazy river instead after many, many years.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Of having to swim upstream.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I think as we look around the space, we feel super,
super super excited about the continued growth and investment. The
NCAA space may be a little bit murkier. There's some
real fears, I think about the pipeline for Alympic Sports
and threats to Title nine.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
So we're going to continue to address that on.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
The show and cover it, and of course we'll continue
to talk about the ever evolving policies impacting trans athletes
and inclusion or lack thereof, But it does feel like
in the women's pro leagues were on steadier ground in
almost every way. Investment, engagement, awareness, coverage, all of it
is up.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Which is why it really stood out.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
To us and Alex in particular, when we were listening
to WNBA commission Kathy Engelbert to the presser on the
CBA negotiations and seem to reveal a mindset that's very antiquated.
It had us kind of worried about league leadership. Take
a listen to the part we're talking about. Kathy was
asked what she learned from the negotiations, and here's part.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Of her answer.
Speaker 6 (18:41):
Ultimately, we wanted to kind of strike this great balance
between significant increases and player salaries and benefits with the
economic sustainability of the league.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Because women's sports is.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
Very fragile and can be very fragile, and we wanted
to make sure we were setting this leaku up not
just for the next six seven years under the CBA,
but for the next CBA, which is why you know,
you saw some things games going up over time, housing
phasing out over time, things like that to set up
the professionalism of the league.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
So of course there's a lot of things we learned.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Okay, fragile, Alex, I'm going to give you the floor
here because when you heard that, I thought I saw
a little steam.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Coming out of your head.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Oh, one hundred percent boiling water was underneath the surface.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
No.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
I actually could not believe that she said that, and
it took me a while. Actually, I haven't watched her
press conference in full. People were talking about the comments
that she had made about her adult children and their
housing expenses, about her pulling the gender card out when
asked about the future of her job, and so I
think there were some other headlines from it. But wow,
when I tell you, I could write a book about
(19:46):
how the word fragility has been used in women's pro
sports history.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
It goes back a really long time.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
And the first story that actually came to mind is
one from Megan Burke, now the executive director of the
NWSL Players Association, and she has a story that she's
told I think maybe even on this show, but back
when she was playing in the WUSA, there was a
day when the players basically came in for a meeting
and were told that they had to take a twenty
five percent pay cut by five o'clock that day or.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Else the league was going to fold.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
And if they didn't say yes to that, then they
shouldn't even bother coming to training the next day. So
they agreed to take the pay cut, and you know
what happened. Anyway, the league folded later that year. Because
anytime that we have seen a league make that type
of proposition to the players, it is a sign of instability.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
And we saw it too with the Yates Report.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I think this is why I have such a strong
reaction to the use of the word fragility. Is just
reading through the Yates Report, which, for those folks who
are newer to the space, was the report in twenty
twenty two that Sally Yates did into the NWSL and
the allegations of abuse against coaches and other leaders in
that league. And I'm going to read a section of
(20:58):
it actually because I think it will kind of get
at the point trying to make here quote. Players were
also repeatedly enlisted in the effort to keep the league
afloat by protecting it from scandal, and were told to
be grateful that they had an opportunity to play professional
soccer at all. The threat of the team or league
failure was acute and persistent. The NWSL was the third
attempt to field a women's professional league and was established
(21:19):
with low capital requirements to ensure the league had eight teams.
Many teams seemed to be one bad season away from shuddering.
Players reported being told by federation leadership and certain team
owners that the league was not commercially successful enough to
warrant for their financial investment, and that the only way
to ensure the league's survival.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Was for players to support the league. End quote.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
And one of the themes that came out after the Yates
report was players talking about how this fear of fragility,
this fear of failure, was one of the reasons that
they didn't speak up. They didn't want to be the
one to raise their hand and say, hey, there are
major problems here, and next thing you know, the league
goes under. So to hear Kathy you the word fragility,
(22:01):
I just found it shocking because, don't get me wrong,
it's completely appropriate to have sound financial figures guiding you forward.
But if she thinks that the WNBA is fragile with
all of the MNBA owners, that she has gotten a board,
that's bad. And I don't think it's accurately depicting the reality.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
I think it's just one of the negotiation.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Tactics that we saw the league use in order to
keep players from demanding more in the latest CBA.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, I mean it feels like something we were talking about.
I remember back when we talked.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
To Alicia Clark as the negotiations were underway at the
end of last season. The conversation was, how do you,
out of one side of your mouth, tell these prospective
owners that they should be battling for expansion team rights
in the hundreds of million dollars while simultaneously saying that
the league is not a good investment and that it
is on unsteady footing.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
And that's what this feels like. Right during negotiations.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Let's tell everybody that we can't possibly afford to stay
afloat if we give the players all the demands they're
asking for. But at the same time, those billionaires who
are invested in a million spaces are seeing this space
as one where they want to put their money. They're
seeing this space as one with exponential growth, and it
is frustrating for all the reasons that you mentioned, Alex,
(23:17):
I would say you could also go back even further
the word fragility, referring obviously to our uteruses and what
will happen to them if we play sport, but specifically
when it comes to financial standing and future success. It's
something we always talk about with men's potential, investing in
what's next, investing in a belief that people will show
(23:38):
up and care about it and like it even when
proved otherwise. Whereas on the women's side, not letting the
success of say the US women's national teams selling out
major stadiums for their own friendly tour that they had
to put on for themselves after the ninety nine ers,
one like those moments didn't make you say, ooh, if
we put a little bit more into this, we'll be
(23:58):
able to keep, you know, building, instead always falling back
on antiquated ideas that there wasn't enough there to grow on.
And I do agree with you, it is really upsetting
for the person in charge to be the one putting
that narrative out there.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, for sure, And I think too.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
That's not to say that even in a successful league
that there can't be financial instability.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
That's something that we've known about men's sports for a
long time, which is that a lot of these teams
that have massive valuations, that doesn't mean that they're bringing
in a profit every year. It is expensive to operate
a team, It is expensive to operate a league. And
yet what we saw in the early years of women's
sports was that they expected people to show up to
games without any marketing budget, without any type of promotional opportunities,
(24:43):
and then when folks didn't, they blamed the players.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
And so thankfully we have seen these.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Leagues spend more money, invest more money on the things
that you need to do in order to get butts
and seats. And so I think that's also why the
fragility argument stuck with me, was because if you think
of it as fragile, than what are you not willing
to spend money on?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, And I mean I think a key point in
that is when men's leagues take a step back, or
when specific teams in a league struggle, the immediate answer
isn't blame the product.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Shut it down.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
This isn't going to work, whereas in women's leagues much
much smaller losses are pointed to as a reason not
to believe in the future of the sport, or fan
showing up or anything else. And yeah, we'll keep an
eye on whether that was just her having that stuck
in her head from months of using it in negotiations,
or whether it's something that will actually inform her behavior
(25:34):
and decision making as she continues to be at.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
The top of this league.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
It's worth noting, by the way, that we can push
back on the quote unquote fragile narrative without ignoring that
there is room for growth and a real need, as
you mentioned Alex, for the data and revenue to catch
up to investment and enthusiasm. I think we had MLV
commissioner Jamie Weston on and she had the perfect phrase
for it.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Don't confuse momentum with maturity.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's great that everything is headed in this positive direction,
but that doesn't mean that we're at a place necessarily
where we can keep up with men's leagues. And I think,
you know, Christina Ltz of the NSL Northern Super League,
Canada's league said the same thing, like we want to
do all the things our fans want us to and
also the expectation that we're already on par with leagues
that have one hundred year head start is kind of unfair, right,
(26:19):
We still need some time to build up to that.
So how do we talk about the lows during this
extremely high time? How do we talk about things like
empty seats in stadiums or ratings numbers that we wish
were higher? Super Slice Amanda Vallo, also our chief accessibility officer,
brought up this very issue in a recent email, and
she wrote, in part quote, after listening to the show
(26:40):
with Andrea Brimmer, it seems pretty clear the business of
women's sports is expanding exponentially and sponsors are showing up
thanks to greater accessibility, social media presence, values, alignment, popularity,
et cetera. I was flying high, getting in the game,
doing my slice work, tuning into the evening Love playoff match,
and then needed my crash out jar.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Lots of empty seats.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
These are elite athletes and competitors, and the arena is
only half full. I experienced something similar coming off an
amazing Denver Summit kickoff event and later tuning into an
Orlando Pride match where I was able to spot and
pick out my friend in her seat only two seasons
removed from a championship, MARTA's on the pitch and the
crowd is dead. My question is, how do I talk
(27:20):
intelligently about this? How do I reconcile what I know
to be true that women's sports are awesome and amazing,
and at times the hype or reported data doesn't pass
the eyeball test.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Amanda is our best emailer. Everyone else is amazing, but
she always comes through funny, smart, thoughtful with all the references,
and she's so spot on here, and it's something that
I think we do have to acknowledge. And in that
conversation with Andrew, I think we wanted to pivot from
just celebrating.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Their fifty to fifty to what does that look like next?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
And how will we keep fans from getting phased out
and priced out, and how will we keep investment and
revenue and profit and everything up on.
Speaker 5 (27:59):
The same level with the enthusiasm so bianco Yeah, I mean,
I think women's sports, despite being as Amanda said, looking
awesome and amazing, they're up against real world challenges of
unemployment rates and people not having funds to spend on
leisure activities and the money that people do have, they
(28:21):
are putting what they can toward women's sports. But I
think that it's just a reality of where this country
in particular is right now because of everything else going on.
Even though more teams are getting investments and we are
seeing this amazing growth, there's also this reality of you
got to have money in your pocket to be able
(28:43):
to get your button the seat.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I always think of the context here, like one, I
call it out when you see it, like I don't
think that we can be supporters of women's sports without
acknowledging the reality that sometimes they fall short, whether that's
it in how many people show up to a game.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
Or how many people are tuning in.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
For me, I always want to know the context though,
because again a lot of times in history, we've seen
people blame the product versus how much was the marketing budget?
What else is going on in this city today? What
network was it put on or is it just on streaming?
Like there are all of these other factors that can
result in awareness, and so call it out when you
(29:25):
see it, but also ask why did.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
This come to be?
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Because I don't think it's inherent that only two thousand
people show up to a game, right, Like, there's a
reason only two thousand people showed up.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, the Orlando Pride are a tough one because I
think a lot of us are watching from afar.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
Like it's smarta, Like, look at all the talent that
you have. It's Barbara Banda, get out there.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
But yeah, there's so many factors to take into account, Alex,
and I'm in particular, I'm not super knowledgeable about the
stadium and the area and all the other factors that
go into play there. But one thing I'll say is
that I do have a little bit of panic when
I turn on the TV and I see empty seats
for games in a way that I don't for things
like Major League Baseball. And yet there are so many
(30:05):
Major League Baseball teams that have entire sections completely empty,
and they've had a eighty ninety year head start. So
it's not something to be ignored when somewhere doesn't have
full seats and people aren't showing up. But it is
not something to panic over. It's a part of a
larger conversation about how these leagues will continue to grow.
(30:27):
I do think Bianca's point is spot on, not just
the cost of tickets and concessions and everything else, but
gas now to get to the game that you're going
to right, And I think the facility is being owned
by the teams will help with all of this when
they can profit off parking and food and beverage and
everything else, as opposed to giving a massive cut to
(30:48):
somebody else before they can even start to make money
back off of all the fans showing up. That's going
to make it easier, I think, to not be quite
so freaked out about whether they hit a certain number
for each game, but you're leading for everything even when
it's not good.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Isn't the answer, And for a long time it felt
like it was.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
We had to counteract such toxicity in the space by
promoting all the good stuff and highlighting the great stories
and the players and everything else. Now we're in a
position where this will be more professionalized and more well
received if we're willing to acknowledge when things aren't done
right at the very highest levels, all the way down
to the marketing and the people not showing up. And
(31:27):
I think the sign of a solid foundation is when
a league will be able to start to hold teams
accountable for not reaching certain metrics. The NWSL's new deal
has in place expectations for certain things by a certain date.
The WNBA has demands to its teams that you have
to hit this level of facility and this level of
(31:48):
resources by this date, and they'll start holding teams to
account and that will eventually make a much better environment
for everyone.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
But in the meantime, it'll.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Be a little sticky, especially in the places that aren't
spending on their marketing and aren't you know, telling fans
why to come and where to be. And we should
call those places out because they're letting their fan bases
down and they're letting their players down. But Amanda, in
the meantime, you asked, how do I talk intelligently about this? Well,
one way to shut up people who seem to use
a different metric for women's sports and men's is to
(32:18):
bring up some of the numbers from the men's teams
that also struggle to put butts in seats.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
You know, MLS attendants. FC Dallas, the least.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Attended team in the league last year, had an average
of eleven thousand fans. Or if you want to go
to something with a much much, much, much longer head
start the Oakland A's Now, to be fair, there's a
lot going on with Oakland and the removal of the team,
but they had the lowest total attendance at MLB last year.
They only averaged about eleven five hundred and twenty eight fans.
(32:46):
So you're looking at a team that has decades decades
to build and the Tampa Bay Rays barely beat them
out by just a couple hundred people.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
And so those are mlbts.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
So I think you can point to places that are
also struggling from the same issues with getting fans, butts
and seats and the fact that no one's calling for
MLS or MLB or any of these men's leaks to
shut down. So let's wrap this up on our four
hundred and fiftieth episode. And I like to end on
a positive, So let's start with the things we are
worried about.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Let's not cheerlead.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Let's also discuss some of the realistic things to worry about.
For me, I've been talking about them, you know, the
last week or two, in particular with the Columbus expansion
team on the NWSL side, I'm a little worried about
male led ownership groups and NFL ownership groups coming into
the women's space, people who don't have that same touch
point with the women's space and women athletes, and also
with US dominance waning when it comes to global sports
(33:44):
soccer and other sports where other countries are catching up
to us. Does some of the enthusiasm that stems from
intense patriotism and love of our dominance mean that the
interest will wane if we are getting beaten in Olympic
and World Cup and World Championship level events.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
So that's something to keep an eye. I hope that's
not the case. We like to win stuff here in America,
that's true.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
I think we should also just call out that, like
waning interest is natural in a way, you know, we
saw it with a WNBA still to this day, the
high watermarks for the WNBA in terms of attendance and
viewership are from those very early seasons in the nineties,
and so do we expect that the league's current level
(34:29):
of momentum is going to hold on forever? Probably not.
And so I think like what is being done intentionally
behind the scenes to make sure that things are being
done to keep people tuning in, to keep people showing
up to games and to not kind of hit the
panic button if we see those decreases.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Worth noting, by the way, the drop in interest after
the earliers of the w was because of suppression, right,
So making sure that first of all, there isn't intentional
suppression by moving it to lesser networks or giving it,
you know, worse time slots, but also to continue to
increase and work on driving engagement and growth so that
there isn't a free gat or panic if there is
(35:07):
a wane and interest after this big boom around the CBA.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
Yeah, and should we even be looking at TV viewership
numbers and comparing them to the nineties.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I mean, if you want to.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
See three point how many people watch Survivor finalees twenty
years ago versus now and they still call that show
number one show? Why don't we get that kind of
treatment here in women's sports?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Okay, really quick? What are we most excited about?
Speaker 5 (35:29):
Well, speaking of Marta, if you're not watching her on
the field, here is an amazing opportunity to potentially end
her career watching her at the World Cup next year
in Brazil. I am so excited to see how Brazilians
South America large, the world at large react to seeing
her on the pitch.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Wow, you're really leaning into that story. I hope that's true.
I hope that's true.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Are you dadding Marta Sarah? Well, she hasn't said for
sure she's coming back.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
She just retired and then unretired to play in a
game last year.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
So listen.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
If Marta and Alison Felix aren't there respective country's flag
bearers at LA twenty twenty eight, then yeah, we're doing
something wrong.
Speaker 5 (36:11):
I feel like Lindsay Vaughn needs to start a consulting
company where she just advises all the people who watched
her and we're like, wait a minute, hold up, we
can come back.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Let's let's do it. Old Knees Incorporated. There we go. Yeah,
I mean summer games in LA.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
I'm excited about the idea of it, But every time
I think about it, I think about like an opening
ceremony with Kid Rock and like Trump and a throne,
and I'm like, ugh, like, what's our Like Olympic anthem
gonna be like an AI generated country music song about
like trucks and hot dogs.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I just it's hard to get as excited as.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
I would be if if instead, you know, Madam President
was up there representing the best of.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Us, I couldn't have said it better myself, Sarah. People
keep asking me like, oh, are you guys gonna go
cover the LA Olympics, And I'm like, uh, I'm like
thinking of like riding around these like nice little waying
to Italian villages, and I'm like trying to imagine that
in LA and just not feeling the vibes quite as much.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
But we'll see, all right, Well.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
We tried to end on a positive note, and Oh,
I'm excited about the thirtieth season for the WNBA. I'm
excited about all the throwback opportunities. I'm excited about the
new rosters. I'm excited to see what happens in the
Love Volleyball MLV Professional Volleyball space. I'm really excited to
see Allison Felix's come back.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
I'm really excited for.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
The PWHL playoffs and the expansion teams, hopefully one of
which is in Chicago. There is a ton I'm excited
for the first women's professional Baseball League action. So there's
just it's almost like we take it for granted because there's.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
So much good stuff.
Speaker 5 (37:42):
Alex Bianca, thank you for hopping on to talk four fifty.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
We got to take a break. When we get back,
get your soapbox ready. As if we weren't just on one,
we found another one to jump on.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Stick around. Welcome Max Slices.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
We love that you're listening, but we want you to
get in the game every day too, So here's our
good game play of the day. We know y'all make
up the bedrock of women's sports fan groups and communities
across the country. You're out at games and watch parties
every weekend, whether you're repping the team just down the
road or you're crossing state lines to go see a
particular team or star in action. You know which cities
are doing women's sports best, and you know which ones
(38:25):
are still trying to catch up.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
So as we see spots across.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
The US state claim to being the quote epicenter of
women's sports, like multiple reps for cities using that exact language.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
We started to wonder who actually deserves that title.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
So we actually discovered that friend of the show, Meg
Lenahan of The Athletic recruited the sites women's sports reporters
to deliver their list of the top women's sports cities
in America. But we want to hear from the people
in the seats, not press row. So you slices will
help us decide which US city actually is the epicenter
of women's sports. Now, we're going to put together a
(38:58):
bracket to settle this, but we need your missions first.
We need to know if your city should make the bracket.
Did you recently visit another city that totally wowed you
with its women's sports. We want to hear about the
big cities that might be obvious contenders and the smaller
towns that may still be a hidden gem.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
The place is with amazing college.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
Teams and traditions, the spots with incredible history we might
not know, and the towns that are building the future
and setting the standard. This is your chance to be
the pr team, the agent that every athlete deserves. So
get out there and hustle to make sure your city
makes the cut. So send us an email good game
at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at
eight seven two two oh four fifty seventy to share
(39:38):
your thoughts and your reasons for your city or a
city you've been to and We're going to collect them
all and put them in a big old bracket. Now
we'll save the format for how the cities advance for
another show. For now, you've got your marching orders. Speaking
of marching orders, don't forget to subscribe, Rate and review.
It's real easy watch funding the potential of men while
(39:59):
ignoring the perform or of women. Rating sixty out of
one hundred cents review. Cassidy Licktmann, friend of the show,
former Team USA Volleyball player and current VP of Volleyball
and Athlete Engagement and Athletes Unlimited, recently wrote a fascinating
post on LinkedIn. She wrote about an NIL stat she
learned at a conference, and I'm going to read in
full because I think Cassidy nailed it. She wrote quote,
(40:21):
I'm at the Peak Sports Tech conference this week and
was listening to Open Door CEO Stephen Denton talk about
the state of NIL when it comes to actual NIL
deals ie money from brands, not schools. Female NCAA athletes
received sixty cents on every dollar spent. Brands are recognizing
the value of female athletes, the intention with which they
approach content creation and their platforms, and the engagement of
(40:44):
their fans over the same from male athletes, and this
tracks with data from properties like CrossFit or snow League
that had athletes of both genders from the start and
saw the female athletes garner larger followings.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Here's the other side of it, though.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
The money coming from the schools through revenue share is
obviously going overwhelmingly to male athletes who play in revenue
generating sports, and you might say that's fair.
Speaker 5 (41:06):
But this brings me to two thoughts. Why do women
have to work for money but men just have to
play for it.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
If female athletes are more marketable than male athletes, and
yet men's sports are bringing in more revenue than women's sports,
maybe the problem is we're just not marketing women's sports.
Maybe if we put the same kind of resources behind
women's sports as men's, they'd actually be more popular. The
question now, though, is if we'll even be allowed to
test that theory in the NIL and revenue share era,
(41:33):
As schools triple down on revenue sports, the growth of
most women's sports and men's Olympic sports is more likely
to be stunted due to lack of investment. It's great
that NIL money is coming from brands to female athletes.
But how much more money might be coming to female
athletes and in revenue to schools if we invested in
women's sports like men's end quote. Now, this is the
(41:55):
story we've been telling for decades. Men got a century
plus head start and continue to be invested in, covered,
and promoted based on that, while women aren't even given
the chance to prove that they can compete for eyeballs
and interest and revenue. And on the occasions where they
succeed in spite of industry forces like I don't know,
the US women's national team or Caitlin Clark versus angel
Rees and the ncaattorney, it's often seen as a fluke,
(42:18):
not a sign that more marketing, investment and attention could
produce more of the same. So good on you, Cassidy
for calling out just the latest iteration of a decade's
old problem. Now it's your turn, slics, rate and review.
Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good game, Alex and Bianca,
Good game, Amanda Valo. You anyone who says four point
(42:40):
fifty is kind of a random number to celebrate. We
missed four hundred because we were at the Olympics and
we don't feel like waiting for five hundred. Good Game
with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in
partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find
us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple, or wherever you get
(43:01):
your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Azzi and Bianca Hillier.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan
and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Lucy Jones,
Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer. Production assistant from Avery Loftus
and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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