'Exclusion With a New Name' with Reo Eveleth and Sydney Bauer

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where Azy Fudd
and kk Arnold better start putting Gino in their tiktoks
old Man's got moves. It's Tuesday, March thirty, first Happy
trans Day of visibility. On today's show, we're joined by
a dynamic duo, Rio Eveleth, writer and creator of the
podcast Tested, and Sydney Bauer, a journalist who focuses on sports, health, culture,

(00:22):
and LGBTQ issues. We talk about the International Olympic Committee
reinstating genetic testing for female competitors, the history of gender
testing in sports, the effects of the IOC's policy on
trans athletes and athletes with differences of sex development, and more. Also,
we'll celebrate trans joy with former soccer player turned host
and speaker Phish.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Plus the Fleet are in, the Faves are down, Bad,
and two times twenty six point two.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.
Here's what you need to know today. Starting with college hoops,
we're recording this before the buzzer sounds on the final
Elite Eight games, so we'll do our recap and look

(01:09):
ahead to the final four in tomorrow. Show to hockey
and a busy weekend in the PWHL, marked.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
By the return of two superstars.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
First, on Saturday, the Minnesota Frost welcomed back captain Kendall Coinschofield,
who had been out since the Milan Courtina Olympics on
long term injury reserve. She had two assists in her
return to the ice, but her Frost fell to the
visiting Boston Fleet four to three. Friend of the Show
Aaron Frankel had the day off, so Boston relied on
rookie goaltender Amanda Teey, who stopped twenty one of twenty

(01:37):
three shots in her PWHL debut, helping the team clinch
a spot in the playoffs. On Sunday, we saw the
return of Seattle Torrent captain Hillary Knight, who had also
been on long term injury reserves since the Olympics. Her
Torrent fell to the Ottawa Charge two to one. More
PWHL Saturday saw the league's first game broadcast in the
US on national television, a three to one Montreal Victoire

(01:59):
victory the New York Sirens in front of a takeover
tour crowd of just under sixteen thousand in Detroit. But
that won't be the last time you can catch the
PWHL on TV.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Here in the States.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
The league has announced that the Walter Cup Finals will
be on national linear TV in the US for the
first time in PWHL history.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
This year.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
The agreement with Script Sports will put the best of
five series on Ion, making it accessible to one hundred
and twenty six million American households. The finals are not
till May, but never too early to get those watch
party plans going to the NWSL, where a bunch of
heavy hitters are struggling to find their footing at the
start of the season, including the Kansas City Current. They

(02:37):
lost to the Portland Thorns on Saturday to nil, marking
their third loss in four matches this season.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
The Thorns walked away not.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Only with the w but also a new record for
Olivia Moultrie, who scored in the fifty third minute and
at twenty years old, became the youngest player in NWSL
history to reach twenty career goals. Defending champions Gotham FC
are also sitting on just one win so far this season.
On Sunday, they played through a Lando Pride to a
draw on nil nil and most shocking, maybe championship runners

(03:04):
up the last two seasons. The Washington Spirit remain winless
after that nil nil draw on the Summits record breaking
home opener. Meantime, Angel CITYFC or at the top of
the NWSL table with the perfect three oh to o record,
just like we all drew it up.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Right to golf where he owed you.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Kim and Nelly Korda went one two for a second
straight week. Kim took a two shot victory in the
Ford Championship on Sunday, a week after taking the top
spot in the Founders Cup. Both players are off to
a hot start. It's the first set of back to
back wins in Kim's career, and in three starts this year,
Korda has won once and twice been runner up. To
The London Marathon, the world's largest race, may get even bigger.

(03:44):
London Marathon organizers are considering staging next year's event across
two days to enable more people to take part. According
to The Guardian, that could mean one hundred thousand runners
over the course of a weekend.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Now.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Marathons in general have seen a huge rise in popularity
since the pandemic, and the London Marathon is perhaps the
epicenter of that growth. There were a record breaking fifty six,
six hundred and forty finishers at the twenty twenty five race,
and a record one point one million people applied for
a chance to run in this year's edition. So I
mean I need to ask all these people, are y'all okay, Bianka,

(04:16):
you did this running for a very long time thing, right?

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Is it worth the trouble? Running a marathon is definitely
worth the trouble. I recommend everybody at least try out
pushing their distance, but I am not for pushing the
London Marathon into two days. We should go and run
our local races and support the local organizing that's happening
at a city near you.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, I mean, if you don't get into the final cut,
just go grab a pint instead, challenge your body in
other ways.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
I'll meet you there, all right.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
We're going to take a break when we come back
a game of Olympic Whack a Mole, with Rio Evelett
and Sydney Bauer.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Joining us for a triumphant return visit.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
They're a writer, producer and artist and the creator and
host of the fantastic audio documentary series Tested from CBC
and NPR. A Peabody Emmy and Eisder nominee co founder
of the Coyote Media Collective.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
They lift weights and make sculptures. It's Rio Evelyth.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
Hey, Rio, thanks for having me back. I wish I
was here to talk about something better.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
I know sometime we'll just have you on to shoot
the shit one day. Yeah, yeah, also with us. She's
a journalist and communication strategist who's covered topics including sports, health, culture,
and LGBTQ plus issues for outlets including Reuter's, NBC News,
ABC News, HuffPost, Cosmopolitan, and more. An Emery grad Rower
and cursed forever due to our New York Mets fandom.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
It's Sydney Bauer. Hi, Sydney.

Speaker 5 (05:43):
Hey, it's almost April. It's the best time to be
a Mets fan.

Speaker 4 (05:46):
Yes, I'm also a Mets fan. My gosh, you're like
riding high in Mets fandom right now, both of you.

Speaker 5 (05:52):
I know.

Speaker 4 (05:52):
I'm so sorry you're overwhelmed.

Speaker 5 (05:54):
Now.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
One of the few teams I can lord my Cubs
fandom over and say it's.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Still better over here. Uh, very few.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Well, thank you both for joining me for what's short
of bey not nearly enough time to dig into all
that's going on in the world of trans inclusion in sport,
Olympic sex testing, and just the general decay of humanity.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
But we're going to do our best.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
I want to start with the new International Olympic Committee policy,
which requires that every single woman who competes in the
female category in every sport at the Games will have
to undergo a one time genetic test via saliva, cheek
swab or blood sample. The test is looking for what's
called the srygene, typically on the Y chromosome.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
The IOC says that if an athlete has the.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Srygene, then they're considered to have experienced male sex development
and are therefore banned from the female category. So the
outcome of this new policy is that all trans women
will be banned from female categories, many athletes with differences
of sex development will be banned, and every single woman
who wants to compete will be subjected to a test
to determine if she is indeed, in the eyes of
the IOC, a real woman. Of course, according to medical

(06:57):
asperts and geneticis including the scientists who actually discovered the
sry gene, the existence of the gene proving that one
has experienced male sex development and enjoys its potential benefits.
Is far too simplistic of a take. So let's start there. Rio,
tell me what you know about this. Why do experts
say that.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
This sry gene alone is not a reliable tool.

Speaker 4 (07:18):
Yeah, so the srygene lives on the Y chromosome. If
it is functioning normally and everything kind of goes as average, right,
it then stimulates this cascade of genes that turn on
that develop testes that then create testosterone.

Speaker 6 (07:31):
Right.

Speaker 4 (07:31):
And so what the IOC is saying is that if
you have this gene, then therefore you definitely have all
the testosterone, and your body definitely receives it and does
stuff with it, and you become this incredibly potent potential
athlete biological male, as I like to say, which is
not really a term that experts in any other field
of medicine or science would use. It's sort of an
invented term for this conversation. The problem is that for

(07:54):
some people the srygene doesn't work. It does work, but
only kind of it works, But the testes that develop
don't develop properly. They do develop properly, but the body
can't receive or sort of process testosterone. Sometimes it can,
but only some tissues can use the testosterone and not others.
Biology is really messy. This idea that there are two categories, right,

(08:15):
male and female just does not hold up. And so
any test that tries to pin this sort of binary
down is just inherently going to fail. You just cannot
succeed at this task. And so they have moved towards
the gene thing away from testosterone, which is what we
had been talking about for the last ten to fifteen years,
in part because it feels, i think a little cleaner

(08:36):
for people and it feels a little more obvious in
terms of, oh, it's a genetic test, so it's got
to be right. But of course that's not unfortunately or
fortunately how biology works, depending on how you think about it.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, it ignores literal decades of science that have disproved
the theory that it's a simple xxxy situation. So all
it tells you is if the gene is present, not
whether it's actually doing any of the things that the
gene would do that might cause you to consider. So
someone differently abled or potentially differently abled in sport as
a result of being quote unquote a man. You know, Sidney,

(09:06):
you've covered trans athletes and the intersection of LGBTQ rits
in sport for a very long time. How did it
hit you when this new IOC policy was announced?

Speaker 6 (09:15):
It felt inevitable, like these are all political decisions, and
having covered the IOC since like London twenty twelve, you
kind of see the way political winds are going, the
way decisions are being queued up. The way that they
work essentially is there are committees that make decisions.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
They have concentric rings of decisions.

Speaker 6 (09:36):
If you know what the inner circle is doing or
what they're telegraphing, you can kind of see ahead of
time what's coming down the pipe. Yeah, and that's where
this came from.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
You know, we're going to get to later how this
will create circles around both Olympic participation and then going
out from there all the way down to youth sports.
But before we get to that, I do want to
get to sort of like the specifics of how we're
going to talk about who this affects and rio. A
lot of time when we have conversations like this, they
get muddied by a lack of.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Clarity around the words that we're using.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
So let's ensure that everyone listening really is on the
same page, starting with an explanation of the differences between DSD,
intersex and trans.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
Can you help with that?

Speaker 4 (10:14):
Yeah, it's interesting. I've seen so much of the coverage
around this IOC band be like IOC bands trans athletes,
and that is accurate but sort of incomplete. So you
have trans women and specifically trans women, right. The IOC
is sort of uninterested in transmen as a category. They
just sort of don't really address that. Trans women, people
who are maybe assigned male at birth and now live

(10:35):
as women, are women. And then you have this other,
sort of more complicated category of what the IOC and
other sporting bodies called DSD athletes differences of sex development.
This is a very sort of contested term. Some athletes
are fine with it, some athletes hate it. It sort
of medicalizes something that doesn't necessarily need to be medicalized.
Some of these women have these sort of conditions and

(10:56):
they would never know. They've lived their whole lives. They're fine,
they don't need medical treatment or help. Some of those
athletes may identify as intersex, but some of them don't.
Many of them don't. Intersex is sort of more of
an identity term like queer, where you kind of opt
into it, do you kind of choose that for yourself
more and more now, And many of these athletes who
are impacted by this are like, No, I'm a sis woman,

(11:17):
I was designed female births. I live my whole life
as a woman. I am a woman. Like all of
these labels that are being applied to me kind of
are against my will, frankly, and have nothing to do
with my lived experience, except for when the IOC shows
up and says, surprise, you don't get to be in
this category anymore.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, So I want to talk about that rio because
per the IOC, a person can have a vagina, ovaries, breasts,
has lived their entire life as a female, but who
has discovered to have the SRY gene And then they say,
is not a biological female and is in fact a
man and would compete in the male category. So can
you help me understand how science categorizes the biology of

(11:52):
folks with differences of sex development.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
Oh, it's hard to answer, because there science is this
like big morass, right, you know. One of the things
I think the IO and other governing bodies do actually
a sort of nefariously good job of is saying no, no, no,
we are listening to the science, right. We are the
ones who are you know, following the science. And the
science is very clear, right, Coventry says in her press conference,
the science is very clear. Science is not very clear.

(12:16):
Just to make sure that that's said out loud. But
if you sort of do this redefining of terms, inventing
terms like biological mail and sort of every policy you'll
see has this definition list at the very end where
they are creating their own set of definitions. That when
you talk to most medical experts, most people who study
this outside of the realm of sports, would look at

(12:37):
and be like, what, That's not a term we would
ever use. That's not a phrase we would ever use.
And I think you know, broadly, medical science recognizes that
there is a lot of variation between the sexes.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Right.

Speaker 4 (12:49):
I think more and more of the general public is
aware that gender is this spectrum. And in fact, even
the IOC says, of course, yes, we totally understand gender
is a spectrum. We would never ever tell somebody what
their gender is. However, we would tell someone what.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Their sex is because that is.

Speaker 4 (13:04):
Very clear and simple and scientific, and of course it's
not right. Science has this broad spectrum. There's a lot
of really interesting medical research around this and sort of
biology research around this that just human bodies come in
all sorts of configurations, and this makes sense when you
think about your experience. I'm sure each person listening to
this knows somebody who has kind of a weird medical thing,

(13:24):
a body that does something kind of funky. Right now.
We know this in all other contexts, but for some reason,
we're so locked in on sex being simple when we
all know that that can't possibly be the case. But
it's really hard to unlearn that.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
I think well, and I do think people are uncomfortable
with being told something that they thought they understood forever
is different than what it was, especially if that means
confusing gender along with sex, because we're so predisposed to
assign people to a spot in society so we can,
I don't know, paid them less or not elect them
for president for whatever reason. But I think Sidney like

(13:59):
this is a great point, Like if basic education around
these complexities and sex and gender were was a little
more common, we could move the needle. I mean It's
not simple, right, There's a lot of still new science
coming out, even this srygene was just discovered in nineteen ninety.
But I feel like even just opening up conversation could
be really helpful, right.

Speaker 5 (14:18):
I always like to say this is a political decision,
because the way they're defining new things is a political
definition for things. And ultimately you have sport, which existed
for so long as just men defined by the men
in charge can play sport that when people fought for
really hard earned rights to get the opportunity to play

(14:40):
alongside this, you know, it created this new category which
is a super important fight and one that keeps happening
and like should never be diminished. But at the end
of the day, like all it did was create two
categories for sport. And there's so many more categories of
human existing, so many more categories of just how people
fit in in life, and the IOC wants to thread

(15:02):
this needle between this is how we organize sports, This
is how people pay us a lot of money to
organize sports. This is how everyone on Earth tries to
tune in to watch how we organize sports. So we
need to fit everything into this definition because it works
because we've said it works, because you show up and
you watch and you agree it works. So we have

(15:25):
to make this work, which is why they continue to
do this the way that they are, which was when
they let trans women in two thousand and three come
to the Olympics, they said, great, you know, get your surgery,
do whatever the definition of a transsexuality was back then,
we will let you in. You fit into our rules.
You come to play, you play by our rules. Then

(15:45):
they realize their rules didn't work. So for thirteen years
they dealt with athletes asking for more rights. They dealt
with lots of it's happening behind the scenes, which is
why ahead of Rio twenty sixteen, they came up with
their new Consensus Statement, which was as it was a
consensus statement, this wasn't something that was hard fast defined

(16:05):
A versus b X versus Y, so on and so forth.
They said, this is the best we can do to
fit you guys in, and people said, great, I think
we can do a little bit better. And they try
and push that for another five years and got the
last frameworking Consensus Statement, which broadened the idea of fairness
and inclusion, which is a line created by pr officials

(16:26):
to fit into everything, and here we are. So it's
I don't even know if more education would work. It's
the IOC has a way they do things, and they
want to make everything fit into that box. Except reality
does not fit in that box.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Right, I mean we're ultimately bumping up against Sports are
usually binary and human biology is not. So how do
we do our best within the constraints of that reality?

Speaker 2 (16:50):
So real?

Speaker 1 (16:50):
We had you on back in twenty twenty four and
we talked about your fantastic show Tested. Everyone should go
listen to that episode and Torio's podcast in general. We'll
actually link both of those in the show, so people
want to check them out because I think they're both
worth listening too. So I don't want to rehash too
much of what we discussed last time, but I do
want you to explain why this so called gender testing
at the Olympics isn't new and is actually a recurring

(17:11):
sort of whack a mole nightmare that dates back a
whole century.

Speaker 4 (17:14):
Yeah, I mean, like Sydney mentioned, right, like, as soon
as women saw the Olympics really kind of becoming a thing,
they said, I want to do that, right, I want
to compete. I want to run, I want to play,
And the men were like, oh no, no, no, no, no,
we did not account for this. This was not something
they counted for. And they worked really hard and they
succeeded right at getting into the Olympics. And as soon
as women start competing in the Olympics, and in particular,

(17:36):
as soon as women start competing in sports that are
seen as masculine and at the time, right that's really
track and feel the scene sort of interestingly as the
most masculine sport at the time. As soon as women
start running on the track, you start to hear all
of these questions, is that really a woman? It can't
possibly be women, because women, real women wouldn't want to

(17:56):
do this, Real women would not compete like this, Real
women wouldn't make these gruesome faces as they are like
pushing their bodies right to the brink. And so immediately
you have questions, is that a wo Is that a woman?
Is that a woman? They of course largely center around
women who are from certain parts of the world. Right,
you have a Japanese runner who is immediately challenged, you
have an Eastern European runner who's immediately challenged, and at

(18:19):
the time, there's no real policy at the very beginning,
because it's kind of just like a little bit of backdoor.
You know, there have been these rumors we took her
to back and checked, right, which is like, what is that?
I mean, when you think about that for more than
a second, you're like, what does that even mean? In
nineteen thirty six is the first sex testing policy. And
so this has been this ongoing question of, oh, these

(18:40):
women are so masculine, they don't look right, they don't
seem right. So even as you know, we celebrate women
in sports and women's sports history and look how these
great trailblazers and now right, the IOC looks back and
celebrates these women even though at the time they were
policing them and they continue to police them to this day. Right,
And so it's just this ongoing question of trying to
find the thing that divides those two categories, and the

(19:03):
sort of target is always slightly moving, But the underlying
question is the same as you say, we have organized
sports in a binary way. Human bodies do not fit that.
There's always going to be somebody stuck in the middle,
and those people always suffer.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
And we've seen plenty of examples of people who do
fit in the binary and are still accused of not
fitting because of societal expectations for women what they should
look like, how they should behave, and how they should perform.
And we are constantly capping female excellence while marveling at
male excellence as we continue to expand the record books
for them, which is obviously always a part of this
conversation too. So after thirty years of folks in science

(19:39):
and medicine pushing back, pushing back, pushing back, finally, in
nineteen ninety nine, sex testing ends at the Olympics, we
get about a decade of peace. Ish, it wasn't perfect,
but it wasn't this bad. Along comes Castor Samanya, South
African middle distance runner who wins the two thousand and
nine World Championships and reignites these conversations about regulating women's
bodies and pointing and saying that's not a woman. This

(20:01):
time it comes about in the form of testosterone testing.
So rio, this new sex testing is intended to ensure that,
as the policy says, quote, eligibility for any female category
is limited to biological females.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
They used to say that was based on testosterone.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
Now they're telling us it's the sry gene. Goodness, how
did we get back to this after years of deciding
this wasn't it?

Speaker 5 (20:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (20:24):
I mean I think there's a couple of things. One,
testosterone was always going to be a really difficult moving target, Right,
what is the upper cap? How much testosterone is someone
allowed to have?

Speaker 5 (20:33):
Right?

Speaker 4 (20:34):
You have these women like Christine Boma, like you know
Caster Semenya, who have naturally higher levels of testosterone. But
then you end up backing yourself into a corner if
you are the IOC or World Athletics or any of
these governing bodies where you have to define like how
much testosterone a woman is allowed to have, And that's
just like a really tricky position to put yourself in.
And it also means that if you do that, which

(20:54):
some places did, like World Athletics, you then say to athletes, Okay,
if you want to compete in the women's category, you
have to take medication to change your biology, right and
to suppress the testosterone. And some athletes did, right, Christine
Bouma did that. There are other athletes who did that.
They said, look, I want to compete if this is
what I have to do to compete. I will take
these drugs, I will suffer the side effects, I will

(21:16):
do it. And so that opens I think up a
real big question around medical ethics and asking these women
to medicate themselves, take medicine they do not need, and
that it's medically dangerous for them just because they need
want to compete in the Olympics, not because they have
gender dysphoria, not because they have any medical reason to
do so, purely to compete, and that is a legally

(21:37):
precarious and ethically precarious place to be. And so I
think that one of the reasons they've moved to genetic
screening is that it takes away some of that murkiness. Again,
it just feels clean to people. Yes, xx x Y,
I learned that in high school biology. Bang bang boom,
We're done here. I don't have to think more about it.
Let's move on.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, And you've been in contact with the athletes that
you talked about for tested several DSD athletes in particular,
who not only had life altering and health altering hormone
therapies but also invasive surgeries, one of whom didn't know
when she said yes that she would be getting actual
surgery in order to comply with those testosterone tests. Now
all for naught, right, none of them will be able

(22:17):
to compete.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah, yeah, it's over for them.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
This is it after all that saving up the money
for it, going through the physical and mental challenges of
doing that, and then now they've just changed the rule
and they're not able to compete because they have a
gene that, according to the guy who discovered it, doesn't
necessarily mean anything about how they're competing. And what's fascinating
is how many other athletes, as to this point, might

(22:41):
have also had that gene but just been an average competitor,
not good enough for anyone to point to or notice.
Who might now test with this new policy and discover
and be eliminated? And won't that be interesting when they
discover that it's not the very very best who are
getting an advantage, it's just everyone across all parts of sport,

(23:02):
just like women can be good and not so good.
And ah, it's so messy.

Speaker 4 (23:07):
And we know this happens, right, We know this happens
because from the sixties through the nineties they did a
test like this and every Olympic Games about eight ish
six to ten women would show up to the Games,
get tested and be told surprised, you have Y chromosomal
material in yourselves. You have to leave, you cannot compete.
I mean, we don't know all of them. A lot

(23:28):
of the time it was quiet. They were told to
fake an injury. Some of them literally put on a
fake cast to try to like not make it clear,
because otherwise, why else are you leaving? Right, So we
don't know all of them, but we do know some
of their names, and we know that they were not
dominant in their field like they I mean, they made
it to the Olympics, right, they are incredible athletes, but
these are not people who are sweeping the podium, right.
It is not always the case. And even in the

(23:49):
case of Castor and others, there is no woman in
this sort of DSD category right now who holds a
world record at all. Castor does not have the world record.
People speak about her as if she's this like credible,
unbeatable athlete. She doesn't even have the world record for
distances like you know, I don't know. It makes me insane.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
We got to take a quick break more with Sydney
and Rio after this, speaking of Castor, you know, Castor
took medication for years.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
And one thing that she.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Writes about in her book, The Race to Be Myself,
is that she learned that she was born with DSD
in the media at the same time as the public did,
and critics of raceed privacy concerns about the IOC's new policy.
You know, I just said there are plenty of women
across plenty of sports who have spent their entire lives
and will take this test and be told something that
is life altering, not just for their participation, but also

(24:45):
publicly socially in terms of many countries where it's actually
dangerous to be told this, Sidney, What could the consequences
and the impacts be if an athlete finds out about
personal information via this test and if it then becomes public.

Speaker 6 (24:57):
The idea that none of this is going to get
leaked is it's absolutely a farce and terrifying. I mean,
if you think about the type of presses that do
investigate reporting into this type of stuff, like the one
that comes to mind is the British press to me,
and they are ruthless with what they will dig up,
and they are ruthless in they have very strict libel laws,

(25:22):
so if they get things through into print, they are
sure they're not going to get any legal backlash. Athletes
who have been talking about this forever had their personal
information leaked to the media reporters who they're covering this
in the mindset of, well, there's rule breaking going on,
you know, ethically, it's newsworthy. Sometimes I wonder, like what

(25:44):
I would have done if someone handed me a Manila
folder and said, the biggest eight hundred meter runner in
the world is going to be caught up in legal
drama over her status. Like, I don't know what I
would do now. I think I would handle it very
differently than I would in twenty eleven when I was
twenty years old. It's horrifying to think about, you know,

(26:04):
like that is the scoop of a lifetime for a journalist.
But also these are people's livelihoods, and it's going to
extend beyond sports.

Speaker 5 (26:11):
You google someone that's going to.

Speaker 6 (26:13):
Be in their headline they look for employment after they're
an athlete. Who knows what any employment officer is going
to do with this information, being like, oh, you know,
they're a woman in name only, But also I know
way too much about their medical information now, like that
is something that just scares the daylights out of me
because of it. Another thing that the IOC said in
its information was it wants to encourage national Olympic committees

(26:36):
and federations to test younger and younger people so that
they know early in life so they don't get put
into embarrassing, compromising situations later and on. So when I
read that, the headline I immediately saw was Britain leads
out fifty young imposter girls from youth sports, never mentioning
any of them. But if you're one of those people

(26:57):
that knew it, like that's in the back of your
mind the rest of your life.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Also, it's the problem with us prioritizing competition over humanity
at every level of sport. And there are a lot
of people whose parents have decided and whose doctors have
advised at a very young age it is not necessary.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
To mention this.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
This will never impact them in any meaningful way in life,
and the stigmas of it will be much more deleterious
to them than having this conversation. So this is their gender.
This is how they're going to live their lives, and
that's great. There is no reason to test for that
on the off chance that that kid someday becomes an Olympian, right,
I mean the mess that that could cause. And we've
talked about this on our show before, but the idea

(27:36):
that we're placing faith in, particularly male coaches or administrators
at the youth level to properly handle quote unquote gender
investigations is insane to me. And it also encourages what
we're already seeing far too much across sport, which is
the pointing and the I don't think that kid's a girl,
that girl's too fast like Rio. The IOC's policy says, quote,

(28:00):
unless there is reason to believe that a negative reading
is an error, this will be a once in.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
A lifetime test end quote.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Which, by the way, once in a lifetime sounds like,
you know, a trip to Disneyland with no one else there.
That's not my personal high but like that's the way
you'd hear that language. Not you get to take a
gender test. But I'm really focused on the unless there's
a reason to believe part because throughout history, so many
athletes have had their gender and appearance scrutinized by the
media and the public, and some of the earliest recorded
gender tests at the Olympics were due to people just saying, hey,

(28:28):
that's a man.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Go look at them.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
Are you concerned that that clause could open up women
to further testing? Anytime someone says they quote have a
reason to believe the first one was inaccurate.

Speaker 4 (28:37):
I think it's in both directions, right, So yes, as
you say, but also, let's say that you are an
athlete and you suddenly learn this via this test, you
might say, well, wait a minute, I don't have an
advantage because they open up for okay, if they have
one of the quote unquote rare DSDs right where you
are conferred no advantage, right, they kind of open it up.

Speaker 7 (28:54):
Right.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
It's androgen insensitive, is that right? Where basically it rejects
the ability for the end androgen. The test is the
testosterone everything to react in your body the way it
would and demand. So you have the gene, it doesn't
do anything. They can tell that by the specific kind
of DSD, and they are allowing those people to compete, yes,
sort of.

Speaker 4 (29:13):
Right, so they say, you know, okay, if the athlete
has complete energen insensitivity, right, or in the words of
what they say is quote another rare xy DSD that
precludes testosterones, anabolic and our performance enhancing effects. They do
not give a list of what those DSDs are. DSD
is a very broad category of lots of different things.
And so basically what this means is that if you

(29:35):
are an athlete and you think, well, I don't think
I have an advantage, it is on you to find doctors,
pay for tests, go through this whole invasive process. It's
very hard to prove that you have complete androgen insensitivity.
But then where's the line. Okay, ten percent of my
cells can respond to testosterone? Is that actually an advantage
that we are going to really talk about and care about.

(29:56):
How do we tell? It's really hard actually to pin
these kinds of things down. And there will be athletes
who chase that because this is their dream, this is
what they've worked their whole lives for, and they're going
to spend a ton of money on experts and doctors
that they probably cannot afford with no support. I'm going
to guess from their you know, national Olympic committees and
sort of teams and stuff to try and chase this
impossible sort of always moving target around. No, No, I

(30:20):
should be allowed to compete.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Which is just what happened with so many of the
folks in your tested podcast who spent time and money
to chase something that has now been changed. You know,
we know that the IOC will have sensitive medical data
about every single woman that wants to compete.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
That feels very scary.

Speaker 4 (30:35):
Not just the IOC International Federation, right, every little international
federation that has a podunk budget and two guys working
there now is going to have this information.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
In certain countries where they literally will be unsafe because
there are some countries that associate being DSD with your sexuality,
even though they're unrelated with being trans.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Which is a completely different thing.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
We saw what happened to a mon Khalif in boxing
at the Olympic, people falsely accusing her of being trands
because they don't understand the difference between gender testing and
identity and everything else. Like Also worth noting the guy
who discovered srygene, Professor Sinclair said that these tests are
really sensitive, so a man lab technician could conduct the test,
accidentally contaminate it with just one skin cell, produce a

(31:19):
false positive SROY and if that's your one and done,
don't worry. It's a once in a lifetime that's it.
Congress again to your point, Now you're spending money to
fight it and to argue against it. And you know, Sidney,
there are countries that do not allow this type of testing,
so the IOC has to put in their policy. Don't worry,
We'll bring these athletes to another country where they are

(31:39):
allowed to do this, ignoring the fact that the country
that they lived and probably had a ban on this
for a very good reason. What do you make of
just all the complications to the cost of it, and
how they're regulating who's running the tests and how accurate
they are.

Speaker 6 (31:52):
I mean, it really just goes to show that they
are trying to fit this like round peg in a
square hole, because they really do believe the Olympics or
this autonomous system completely on its own and deserves to
be policed by themselves without governments overseeing it. Essentially, it
needs to be completely separate for it to work, and

(32:15):
like you said, there needs to be legal clauses to
protect themselves to do this.

Speaker 5 (32:20):
At some point you have to go is this even
worth it? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Well, I want to get back to why folks might
think it's worth it, But really quickly.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
Rio.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
I know we talked last time about the Court of
Arbitration for Sport actually demanded that the IOC do a
study into DSD versus CIS women athletes. And now they
have plenty of samples, maybe not a giant study, but enough,
and they haven't done it. How have they evaded that command?
And why do you think instead of being able to
provide proof that being DSD is inherently a benefit, they

(32:51):
instead are just creating rules to ban it.

Speaker 4 (32:53):
This sounds going to sound terrible, but it's like almost
impressive the way they've managed to kind of twist this
idea of evidence around because I know, no, we have evidence, right,
because you know, I come from a science background, and
if you look at this from just totally science brain
blinders on for everything else, it's actually a fairly simple study. Right.
You take all your athletes who you say have this
sroygene and you know that, as the case of World

(33:14):
athletics for example, in general, that's a unknown question.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Because they started last year with this testing.

Speaker 4 (33:19):
Yeah yeah, And then you compare their performance with those
who don't, and if your supposition here that they have
this advantage holds, you should be able to see that
very clearly, and World Athletics has the data to do this.
They've had the data to do this for a while,
they have never produced that study. And so that raises
questions for me. Now when you ask them about this,
if you say, hey, like, why have you not done this?

(33:42):
Why again, this is a fairly trivial, frankly study to do,
they will say, oh, athlete privacy, which I suddenly care about.
She hasn't been the case of the past. But then
they also say, and this is the bit of Nefario
sort of redefining the terms and kind of constantly twisting,
which is they say, oh, no, no, no, we don't need
to do that study. We have plenty of evidence already

(34:04):
because all of these women who have the sroygene are
functionally equivalent to CIS men. And all we have to
do is look at the data on CIS men compared
to SIS women and say, tatah thirteen ish percent, we
don't need to do the study because we are basically
redefining what these words mean. Now, if you ask anybody
who is an expert in the fields of intersex conditions, DSD,

(34:26):
et cetera, they would tell you that of course these
are not These bodies are not the same. We know
that if they were, they would just be sis. Me like,
this doesn't make any sense, but it is the way
they're doing it. And so they're saying, look at this
giant citation list. We have all of these sources that
show that the science says there is this unfair advantage,
but they're not actually comparing the populations that they are

(34:46):
then regulating.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
Right, And the same goes for trans participation, because what
they do is they take elite CIS men and they
compare them to trans women who are not the same.
And in fact, so many studies are revealing that the
hormones and measures taken en route to becoming a transwoman
actually sometimes are a disadvantage by the time it's all

(35:09):
said and done. And yet again we're doing studies that
are not comparing the actual thing we're regulating, which is
so problematic. You know, Sidney, you mentioned whether it's worth it,
and I wonder do you think this policy from the
IOC is at its core, whether subconsciously or consciously, about
preventing trans women from participating and it just happens to
impact all women, or do you think this is with

(35:31):
intention a larger aim to police all women.

Speaker 6 (35:34):
It's tough to say. I don't know if I could say,
because I'm not in the IOC. I think there are
people with vastly different politics at different levels of this.
I think there are a large people that day to
day really do believe in the mission of what they're doing,
and that's the mindset in which they approach this. I
think the IOC at the highest levels is about protecting

(35:56):
its brand and it wants there to be no challenge
to the idea that the Olympic Games are the greatest
sporting event in the world with the best athletes from
all over the world. Now it's not just the best athletes.
They truly believe that sports should be happening in every
single country at every single level, and they want to
pour money into that, redistribute what they get to allow

(36:19):
that to happen. That's why you have continental allocation spots
at the Olympics. It's like the World Cup. It's not
the best forty eight teams in soccer going there. It's
the best forty eight teams waited by continent that are
going to be there.

Speaker 5 (36:32):
So that's their mission.

Speaker 6 (36:34):
That's what they want to uphold, and I think on
some level they do believe this is probably the way
to politically approach this, which is how do we distribute
these resources in the most effective way and get the
people that we want to be there?

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Well, So that's what I want to ask you, because
you mentioned political and the people we want to be there,
And that's the difference here, right, Like what does it
say about the general state of the world. The IOC
is introducing these policies now going back in time, reintroducing
policies that were already deemed dangerous, and doing it at
a time when persecution of trans people is a political

(37:11):
cudgel as opposed to because of a problem that is
emerging that they're trying to have an answer to. It feels,
as with most trans policy, a solution looking for a problem.
So that's why I ask, is the intention policing trans
people because that's the conversation that is drawing attention and
messing with their pr or are we back to probably

(37:32):
what was happening one hundred years ago when that was
just about like we don't want women to be manly.

Speaker 5 (37:37):
I think it's a mix of both.

Speaker 6 (37:39):
You look at the athletes that were most vocal against
castor Semena. Where were they all from? If you think
about it for a few seconds, you don't want to say,
all global North athletes, we're launching this crusade. But it's
curious that most of the people that were upset with
the RIO twenty sixteen final were from certain areas of
the world where the metal podiums were women who worked

(38:01):
really hard from a different area of the world, you know.
I mean, I think this is something that the IOC
is an incredibly reactive body. I don't think they're being
proactive on this. I think that's not controversial to say
in any regard. I think it was not controversial to
say they were being reactive in twenty fifteen when they
came up with their consensive statement, because they were being
sued in Human rights court at the time, and I

(38:23):
think there was a government body that said, hey, you
don't have the autonomy you think you do, and your
own quasi legal setup is we have some jurisdiction over
it turns out, and that led to a lot of changes,
and then that led to a lot of people mad
about those changes, which then led to a lot of
crusading and people working to get into positions in different
bodies to come up with new policy, which is how

(38:45):
politics work. Like this is just politics. It's people trying
to control who gets to go to the starting line
because they want the opportunities to do so.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
I want to dig down that because it will affect
policy going down to collejia high school youth probably turkey trots.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
And fun runs.

Speaker 5 (39:04):
Yeah, I mean it affects me.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, yeah, just everyday folks who just want to participate.
And we had Chris Mosron to talk about the new
book Fair Game. According to that book, there are thirteen
times more proposed anti trans bills than out trans athletes.
That number goes up to eighty five times as many
bills when you're just talking about trans girls and women.
This is such a tiny percentage of the population that

(39:26):
is being targeted. And when you look at this policy
and how it will get down to the way that
it informs both what you mentioned earlier. Let's start testing
young girls at a younger age because they may one
day want to go at the Olympics to even who
gets to play. I want to know where we are
right now, Sydney in America when it comes to trans participation,
in sport because we've done this topic on our show

(39:47):
many times. But with Trump's executive order, with multiple recent
laws being passed, the landscape has changed significantly. So can
you give us sort of a broad view of what opportunity,
if there is any, looks like for trans athletes right now.

Speaker 6 (40:00):
Depends on two things. It depends where you go to school,
and it depends are you an adult or are you
a child. Honestly, like in some Blue states, young trans
athletes have no barriers to playing, whether it be on
club teams or in their school teams. They can go
after school and join their local track team, which was
something that helped me so much in high school and

(40:21):
helped me so much in college when I got the
opportunity to keep pursuing sports and you know, help me
as an adult. But now I row like I get
up at five o'clock in the morning and I go
out on a lake when I have a chance to, Like,
I don't just coach it. I go out and I race.
It's fun because it gives me something to do and
keeps me motivated just in life and keeps going. I

(40:44):
told my local club, I don't know what the hell
I'm going to do this summer because the new policy
from the USOPC basically says I have to race in
what's known as an open division or in the men's division.
And I have raced with seven other women and eight
the last two summers, and I can't in good conscience

(41:04):
tell them, Hey, we have to switch divisions because of me. Yeah,
doesn't matter how good I am, doesn't matter how many
times I show up to practice.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
What is the level of this competition that they have
now trickled down to regulate.

Speaker 6 (41:17):
Any Masters competition. I go to regatta's all the time.
I go to like five or six a year.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
You know.

Speaker 5 (41:22):
I race against people who like me, raced in college.
Are keeping to do this? You know?

Speaker 6 (41:27):
Are you know some of them don't have many opportunities,
so this is when they race with their club for fun.
And there are others who are like me where I
track my you know, six k times in my two
k times, trying to regain some past glory and you know,
feel like as close as I was when I was
like at club nationals. But it's fun because there are

(41:48):
people that take it very seriously at lower levels in
the United States as ospors. Yes, you can show up
and everyone's drinking beers in the parking lot after. But
at the same time, like I could race at a
level against people still training to be at the national
time level if I wanted to.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
That's the point of sport is to find the part
of it that brings you joy, that keeps you moving,
that makes you healthy mentally and physically, that gives you
a community, that gives you goals that you can reach
for and try to compete at. And this, unfortunately, is
going to impact folks at every single level, whether they
want to show up and drink beer. We know somebody

(42:22):
who can't play in a beer league hockey because once
USA Hockey became the regulator of all hockey and that
allowed them some nice funding, they then also get to
regulate who gets to participate. And I think, unfortunately, this
policy is going to have way more wide reaching impacts
than anybody even knows yet.

Speaker 6 (42:38):
Yeah, And I mean, like the US is a case
that is kind of worse off than other countries.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Es because Trump congratulated Kirsty Coventry on her fine job
of leading the IOC.

Speaker 5 (42:48):
And he basically pressured the USOPC to do it. They
didn't have to do this. This isn't a law.

Speaker 6 (42:53):
It's not the law of the land, and it's not
like the USOPC takes government money. We are the one
national Olympic committee that is much more disentangled from our
government than any other place on earth.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, it's interesting too that the last policy from the
IOC said we can't tell any federations exactly what to do,
and then this policy is like, we will tell them,
and we are telling them. So somehow in the span
of the last policy and this one, they've changed their
mind about what they're capable and allowed to do when
it comes to regulating the federations of other countries.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
It's such a mess.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
We're so grateful that y'all came on to help us
try to sort of unpack a little bit off. I'm
sure there will be so many more conversations about this,
But the goal is to keep finding trans non binary
DSD athletes of every single kind and type coming together
to play sports, finding joy and taking up the space
they deserve as often and as many places as they can.

(43:46):
And the fight is just to continue allowing for that.
And it's a fight at the highest level now with
the IOC. Thank you both so much.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
We could keep talking, but unfortunately I have kept you
far too long already.

Speaker 4 (43:57):
Thank you, thank you. I want to just one I
may Yeah, I just feel like it is worth reading
a little bit of Castor's statement about this. There's a
longer statement that I encourage everybody to go read because
I think it's actually incredibly good and very cutting, especially
in regards to Coventry being a woman from Africa and
Caster being a one from Africa. So go see that out.
I just would like to potentially read the bit she said,

(44:19):
I have carried this weight, so have other women of
color who deserved better from sport. Reintroducing genetic screening is
not progress. It is walking backwards. This is just exclusion
with a new name. And I think that's like just
really spot on, and I wanted to give that context.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
Yeah, exactly right. It's just exclusion with the new name.
It was testosterone. Now it saysrhy and next time we'll
find something else as soon as we fight our way
back to the science and the medicine telling them this
ain't it. Well, thank you for that. I appreciate it.
Thanks again to Rio and Sydney for the smart conversation.
We have to take another break. When we return a

(44:56):
moment of joy and a triathlon team for the Ages.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
Welcome back slices.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
On this trans day of visibility, we of course want
to talk about policy and inclusion, but also how necessary
it is to shine a spotlight on the joy of
the trans experience and in the trans community.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
So I reached out to my friend to Uncle Fish.
What's up, friends?

Speaker 7 (45:22):
This is Uncle Fish, a former professional footballer, current storyteller,
community coach and organizer. And also I'm trans and right now,
when people talk about trans people in sports, it almost
always centers conflict, policy, debate, fear, and other people's opinions
about who should and shouldn't belong. But when I think

(45:42):
about my experience of being trans and women's sports, that's
not where my mind goes. I think about joy, trans
joy not as an idea, not as a headline, but
as something I get to live, and I keep returning
to something. Adrian Murray Brown, one of my favorite visionaries,
writes about that we are in an imagination battle. I

(46:03):
feel that deeply because so much of how people I
talk to see bodies as shaped by fear, fear of difference,
fear of what doesn't fit. Neatly into a box fear
of losing power, certainty, or control, and women's sports has
been one of the loudest places where that fear gets projected.
But what I've experienced in women's sports is something else Entirely.
I've experienced a different imagination, one rooted in love and

(46:27):
for me, transjoy looks like going out to coach every
Friday night with football for her, and knowing that her
is expansive, that it holds all girls, welcoming all gender
expansive youth.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
It's looking out at.

Speaker 7 (46:38):
A field full of youth ballers and realizing I get
to be someone who believes in them. I get to
be a part of what shapes their idea of what
the world can be. Transjoy feels like stepping onto fields
and into community multiple nights a week as I am
a pickup soccer attic and I play in inclusive communities
that welcome all bodies, all genders, all backgrounds, and yes

(46:58):
that includes his dudes. And when I change into whatever
jersey I'm repping that night, the scars across my chest
are not the focal point. No one's questioning me, no
one's dissecting me. I'm just a baller who gets high
fives because my team is stoked that I'm playing with them.
I experienced trans joy every time I'm watching an individu
Cell game and see those big, beautiful, trans people belonged

(47:20):
banners held up by the supporter groups. I feel the
love in them, and I always found myself wondering who
else is feeling that with me? What kid is watching
and all of a sudden doesn't feel so alone? What
adult is experiencing that same quiet exhale, that same soul
hug and this transjoy that I experience as a part
of women's sports is why I'm so passionate about growing

(47:42):
and protecting it. Women's sports at its best has always
been about more than a game. It's been about creating
space where there wasn't any, building culture, where there was
an infrastructure, making room for fuller expression, fuller humanity.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
It's been about love.

Speaker 7 (47:57):
Even when it wasn't always named that way. That's that's
why I keep coming back to another line from Adrian
Mariy Brown, who writes, pleasure activism is the work we
do to reclaim our whole, happy, and satisfiable selves from
the impacts, delusions, and limitations of oppression and or supremacy.
To me, that's what women's sports can be at its best,
a reclamation and when trans people get to experience joy,

(48:21):
belonging in a liveness in sport that doesn't just impact
trans people, it expands what all of us believe is
possible in our bodies, in our communities, and in the
world we're imagining and building together. So if you're listening
to this, my invitation isn't just to hear about my
experience of transjoy.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
It's to feel it within yourself.

Speaker 7 (48:40):
To notice where joy shows up in your body, to
notice where you feel most like yourself, To notice where
love is already present, even in the small ways, because
that's where it all starts. Transjoy is a part of
the blueprint, and it's something I hope all of us
get to feel.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
That was absolutely beautiful. Fish. Thank you. Go get fish to.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
Follow at True Underscore fish Tails on Instagram.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
We love that you're.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Listening, but we want you to get in the game
every day too, So here's our good game play of
the day. Send us a note. We love when you
reach out, just like super Slice and good game. Chief
Accessibility Officer Amanda Vaalo Amanda went to the record breaking
Denver Summitt FC home opener and sent us her report,
writing in part quote, the guest Services stadium staff was
uber competent and pulled off a flawless limited mobility to

(49:29):
wheelchair accessible with companion seat seat exchange.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Good news.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
The accessibility seating was elevated high enough to allow for
mostly unobstructed views.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Bad news. This was not always reflected in my camera work.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Good Game, Gary from Guest Services Good Game Supporter section
FU wheelchair accessibility allowing only one companion seat. What if,
like Sarah, I had twenty friends end quote. You know
I don't always travel in packs of twenty, but I
often do.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Spain gang is deep, y'all.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Thanks for the report, Amanda, can't wait to get out
to Denver. We always love to hear from you, so
hit us up on email. Good Game at wondermediaetwork dot com,
or you can leave us a voicemail at eight seven two,
two oh four, fifty seventy and slices. Don't forget to subscribe,
rate and review. It's so easy. Watch Bianca do it.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Team Iron trans Mask rating three out of three people
who belong in Sports Review over the weekend. Three of
your favorite trans guys swam, biked, and ran their way
through an iconic triathlon. The tri team was made of
Skyler Baylor, the first trans men's athlete in NCAA D
one sports, multidisciplinary artists, Cellaman, and marathon or Calikalamia. Skyler,

(50:42):
who swam in college, took on the swimming leg. Cella
was on the bike after getting seriously into cycling in
the past couple of years, and non binary marathon champion
Cal finished it out with the run. And the race
was technically a half iron Man seventy point three miles
in total in Oceanside, California, but instead of iron Man,
they called their team Iron trans Mask, which is absolute perfection.

(51:07):
In a group caption on Instagram, the three of them wrote,
in part quote, when it dawned on us that each
of us specialize in one of the three sports of
the triathlon, we knew it to do. In a world
that's increasingly hostile toward trans people with an undue emphasis
on athletics, we came together to showcase trans excellence, trans collaboration,

(51:27):
and trans joy. Surrounded by queer and deaf community. We
earned our spot on the men's podium. We hope this
moment will make more space for non binary athletes like
Cella and Cal to compete beyond binary categories, and just
as importantly, we grew closer to ourselves and each other.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
End quote.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
We'll put a link to the Instagram post in the
show notes. The photos are full of joy and all
three of those athletes are well worth a follow.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Thanks Bianca. All right, Slice is now It's your turn,
rate and review.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Thanks for listening Tomorrow, Good Game, Rio, Good Game, Sydney.
You orgs making policies that are directly in opposition to
the guidance of science and medicine. Good Game with Sarah
Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on

(52:21):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzi
and Bianca Hillier. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer,
Lucy Jones, Britney Martinez, and Gianna Palmer. Production assistants from
Avery Loftus and I'm your host, Sarah Spain

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