July 16, 2025 • 36 mins
USA TODAY sports columnist Nancy Armour joins Sarah to discuss WNBA All-Star Weekend, whether Caitlin Clark could be doing more (and we’re not talking about defense), and what the three new expansion teams say about the WNBA’s relationship with the MNBA. Plus, a Fire is rekindled, a footy player makes her way back to the states, and the women’s Euro 2025 soccer tournament smashes some records.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're celebrating
our birthday. That's right, our first episode went live a
calendar year ago today. Apparently that means good game. Zodiac
sinus cancer, which is six days away from being Leo.
Close enough. It's Wednesday, July sixteenth, and on today's show,
we'll be bringing you my conversation with USA Today sports
(00:21):
columnist Nancy Armor. We'll talk about the upcoming WNBA All
Star Game, whether Caitlin Clark could be doing more and
not just on defense, and what three new expansion teams
say about the WNBA's relationship with the MNBA. Plus, a
fire is rekindled, a footy player makes your way back
to the States, and the Women's Euro twenty twenty five
soccer tournament breaks some records. It's all coming up right
(00:44):
after this welcome back slices. Here's what you need to
know today in WNBA news, we said we wanted to
(01:04):
hear more from the Portland WNBA team, and they delivered,
finally giving us the good Stuff name and branding. It's official.
The squad's going to be named the Portland Fire OGWNBA
fans will remember the Fire as the name the Portland
W team had in its short lived first iteration from
two thousand to two thousand and two, and they're bringing
(01:25):
it back for another run, this time in a new
era for the W. The franchise made the announcement on
Good Morning America Tuesday morning. And while the name is
staying the same, the logo is brand new. And that
new logo flames from the sides of my face, flaming, heaving.
I oh sorry, that's from clue. No, it's literally flames.
(01:47):
It's got a rose with petals that extend and resemble flames. Anyway,
we'll link to it in our show notes and you
could see it for yourself. Over an Athletes Unlimited, the
orgs AU Pro Basketball five on five league released its
first batch of signees for the upcome twenty twenty sixth season,
and they got some big names folks like Sid Colson,
Tahina Pow Pow, and Ariel Atkins. Now you might recall
(02:08):
Atkins played in the inaugural season of Unrivaled three on
three Nafisa Kallier and Brianna Stewart's league, but she decided
to make the switch to AU. A Chicago Skyguard told
the ESPN She's got no beef with unrivaled, but after
talking to players who had competed in AU, she wanted
to give it a shot, and she's excited about the
new opportunity. The twenty twenty sixth AU Pro Hoop season
(02:28):
starts up on February fourth in Nashville, Tennessee. Even more
athletes unlimited. The inaugural season of the AU Softball League
aka the AUSL has its second trade. Just like the
first trade, the Blaze are involved. The team sent infielder
Danielle Gibson Horton to the Bandits for right handed pitcher
Devin Nets. The move comes as the Blaze have struggled
(02:49):
on the mound. They've got the worst urn run average
in the league at seven forty, and they've given up
the most home runs with twenty three. In fact, the
Blazes have struggled pretty much everywhere. They're at the bottom
of the standings, which is five wins this season. Let's
head to a sports collab we love Indiana Fever forward
Aliah Boston is making a money move, purchasing an undisclosed
(03:09):
stake in the NWSL's Boston Legacy FC, an expansion team
set to begin play in twenty twenty six. The team
confirmed Boston's investment on Monday, while she and her Fever
teammates were in Boston preparing to play the Connecticut Sun
at TD Garden on Tuesday night. The WNBA star grew
up in Massachusetts, and in a statement shared by the
Boston Club, she said, quote, this city helped raise me,
(03:31):
and the support I felt here shaped so much of
who I am. I couldn't be more excited to have
the opportunity to invest in a franchise that's building something
special for its players, for the city, and for women's
sports as a whole. End quote And I mean, her
name is Boston, y'all. It just makes sense. Plus the
investment is that the only news to come from Eliah
Boston's time in the Northeast. She was also honored as
(03:54):
a hometown Hero at the Massachusetts State House, and the
city of Boston declared July fourteenth, Aliah Boston Day. We
love to see it more w On Monday, the Atlanta
Dream announced that guard Ryan Howard is out for the
remainder of July with the left knee injury. She sustained
it during a contest against the Indiana Fever on Friday,
after being named an All Star earlier this month for
(04:14):
the third time in her career, she was drafted to
compete with Team Collier and Indy. She'll now be replaced
by Minnesota Links guard Kayla McBride. Per the Dream, she
is expected to make a full recovery and will give
you a timeline for her return when we get it.
And a little more. WNBA veteran guard Tiffany Mitchell has
found a new home. The free agent guard in her
tenth year in the league, has signed with the Seattle Storm.
(04:37):
Mitchell started the season with the Las Vegas Aces and
averaged three point seven points and one point eight rebounds
in sixteen games, but she was waived at the end
of June in the team's trade for forward Melissa Smith.
And finally, we've got a soccer player on the move.
We've told you about lots of American players heading across
the pond to play, but now we've got one crossing
on back. The Seattle Rain announced that the club has
(04:59):
signed US national team forward me Official to a multi
year deal that runs through twenty twenty nine. The twenty
four year old began her professional career with Tigris uanl
of Mexico before spending the last two years in England
with Chelsea FC, though her appearances with the club were
limited because of an ACL tear she had in February
of twenty twenty four. Per ESPNS, Jeff Casoof Official's new
NWSL contract with the Rain is worth nearly two point
(05:22):
five million dollars over four and a half years, which
makes it the most valuable cumulative deal in NWSL history.
Glad to have you backstateside, Mia. We got to take
a quick break when we come back. Friend of the Show,
Nancy Armor is back, sit tight, joining us again here
(05:49):
on the show. She's been a sports columnist for USA
Today since twenty fourteen, previously spent twenty years with the
Associated Press and has covered every Olympics since nineteen ninety six.
She went to Marquette University for heading South to Land
in Chicago, and she never left. She's an award winning
journalist who's not afraid to tackle the tough topics in sports.
But she wasn't tough enough to withstand my book's ability
to make people ugly cry. It's Nancy Armor.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Hi, Nancy, Hello, Sarah, how are you?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I'm good. I assume I'll be seeing you at All
Star Weekend.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
You will, Yes, I'm driving down on Thursday.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Okay, did oh we showed a carpoorld. I know, we relationship.
What would be the number one choice for music in
our carpool? What are you starting with?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Ooh? Well, we could do recap of podcasts, like all
of season one, because that's what I use like long
drives for is I saw a podcast and then I
listened to them on that Otherwise I have not had
a chance to listen to the.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
New Bonnie Bear Okay album all the.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Way through, and so that might be it, which is
also kind of fitting for the W given his relationship
with the Links.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So I think I would start with that. What about you?
That feels very appropriate. I think we can start with
Bonyver due to the WNBA connection, but eventually a couple
hours in, when you're a little bit more delirious, you
need some sort of singles, so then we'll turn to
the Britney spears of it all. Yeah, that sounds good. Okay,
sounds like a plan. There are so many different activations
and events and parties and fan fests. There's no way
(07:18):
I can go to all of them, or even keep
track of all of them. Can you put into words
just how different things are in the WNBA than even
just a few years ago, based solely on looking at
this All Star weekend.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Oh my god, I mean you remember the All Star
Game was here in Chicago, what three years ago? Two
years ago, three years ago, and it is it's night
and day. Somebody had actually asked me a couple of
months ago, you know, hey, I'm booking travel, when do
I need to go.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Into All Star?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
And I said, honestly, you can probably get there Thursday
night Friday morning for availabilities. They'll do something, you know,
Kathy will do something on Saturday. And now it's like,
oh no, you need to be there like Thursday morning
because there's so much stuff. I mean, it's it is
not quite at the level of an NBA All Star Game,
but it's getting darn close. And it's really cool to
(08:08):
see because it's not just the you know, traditional women's
basketball or women's sports media and no offense to any
of us, but these are big time sponsors and they
have gotten hip to the idea that this is a
major event. This is right up there with the Super Bowl,
the Men's All Star Game, Major League Baseball's All Star Game.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So yeah, it's really it's blown up. And I wonder
if the Chicago one did have any effect on choosing
cities and alerting them. I remember talking to someone from
Choose Chicago and the Chicago Sports Commission that was so
frustrated by how short the timeline was of when the
game was assigned and how long they had to prep
for it. There were some pretty big complaints levied at
(08:52):
the W for that when compared to what the city
knew they might get from an NBA because we had
hosted the NBA All Star Are not that many years before,
and they had such a long timeline. So hopefully the
league is giving cities a little bit more time to
work with now that there are so many things going on.
Speaking of that, what do you think the biggest challenge
for the W is in the next few years. We've
(09:14):
got three more expansion teams named. That's five new teams
in the next five years. Is the league ready for
this expansion both in terms of talent and front office readiness?
Is it ready for rosters to be full in all
those places? Like? What do you see as the next
big thing for the W?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Well, I think talent wise, there definitely is. In fact,
the links we're just in town and I asked Cheryl
read about this because they had to waive Llissa Pilly
and I said, I asked Cheryl, I said, you know
you're getting these you know, these five new teams, but
it's not going to be all fully scaled until twenty thirty.
Do rosters need to be expanded? And she said absolutely
(09:51):
yes that there are plenty of people. As she said,
you know, the first week of the season, there were
already teams getting you know, doing hardship contracts because of injuries. Uh,
just you know you've got national team duty. Is Camilla
Cardoso has just gone from the sky for a couple
of weeks for that. So yeah, I think the talent
level is there. I think it's time for if nothing else,
(10:14):
you know, creating a pot of practice players that you
could have even that. So I think that's the big thing,
one of the big things. But the biggest thing is
obviously the CBA. You know, this is that's the thing
that's hanging over this entire season. It's going to be
hanging over all Star week. This is a pivotal for
the w and I think everybody knows that. I think,
(10:38):
you know, the players you don't want what they're worth
and deserve to be paid. And well, the w says
that they recognize that. I'm not sure if they actually do,
so that to me is the biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
It's that's that.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Has got to get resolved before there's a lockout.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, you mentioned the practice players, and I will point
out you know, in the past, obviously they weren't allowing
for players women players to be practice players because they
worried that teams might hoard someone that could be available
to another team. I think potentially there could be some
sort of rule wherein at any point a team can
steal a practice player for their roster in order to
(11:16):
allow for more of those players to stick around and
be around the league and playing in those places. But
you know, there's also some folks who have gone to
play in three x three leagues and other spots to
keep their games strong, and maybe that's a better opportunity
than feeling like you need to be on a practice
squad to be part of the pool for consideration and
suffering in terms of pay and everything else. So lots
(11:36):
for them to figure out when it comes to filling
out rosters and everything else. Yes, yes, you mentioned the CBA.
Negotiations for the CBA are underway and the players rejected
the league's first proposal. Didn't sound great, so too, soably
called it quote a slap in the face. You actually
penned a story about how the WNBA and its NBA
co owners won't be able to employ their usual tactics
(11:59):
of crying poor. For this, you wrote, the Golden State
Valkyries lead the league with a five hundred million dollar valuation,
which is a whopping ten times what owners Joe Lacup
and Peter Gruber paid to get the expansion team just
two years ago. The average valuation is two hundred and
sixty nine million, and six teams are worth two hundred
and fifty million or more. To put it simply, the
w is a growth stock, a rocket fueled one, and
(12:20):
the players know it. End quote. So I think if
you combine that with the public pressure that Shure decide
with the players, plus statistics showing that the W players
should be making a third to a quarter of NBA
player salaries but instead get about an eightieth of NBA
player salaries based on revenue sharing, that feels like a
pretty tough fight to win, at least publicly for the
w So, as you mentioned, they seem to get that
(12:43):
the players want more, but you're not sure they really
understand the battle that they're fighting here.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, and I've said this to a couple of people
in the last week or so that this actually reminds
me a lot of the US women's national team in
twenty nineteen that for so many years the women had
you know, they knew that they weren't getting their full value,
but there were things that they absolutely needed, like healthcare benefits,
maternity care, you know, childcare provisions, and so they took
(13:13):
I don't want to say that they took what they
could get, but they picked, you know, they had to
pick their battles. But in twenty nineteen they'd had it.
You know, they knew they could see from the crowds,
they could see from ratings, they could see from people
asking about merch, they could see from the NWSL there's
a market here and we're being undervalued. And so that
(13:35):
that contract fight in twenty nineteen it was really the
players saying we've had enough. You know, you're going to
give us what we deserve and if not, you're going
to pay the consequences for it in terms of a
negative public perception. And I really feel like that's where
the W is right now. The players, and I think
that they've you know, they've known their value, but they're
(13:57):
really dug in. I don't want to say dug in,
but they're they're really in knowing that they have been
short changed and need better. And I don't know that
the W appreciates how much the players realize that and
how significantly the public is going to be on their side.
You know, if they have a walkout and you can't
(14:18):
see Kitlin Clark or Angel Reese or Pagebackers play, I mean,
there's gonna be like a riot from some you know,
W fans, And I don't, like I said, I don't
think that the W fully appreciates.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
That right well. And also it's so hard to say
I'm sorry, we can't afford that while acknowledging that m
NBA ownership groups are the ones that are getting these teams.
So when we look at the league's history, we know
that the WNBA might not have made it through some
of the lean years without the MNBA, obviously, but it
also often feels like the MNBA is holding the WNBA
(14:51):
back right now, especially because we have leagues like the
NWSL and the PWATL that succeed on their own without
needing ownership to be combined with a pro league. So
what message does it send about the crying poor of
it all? When three MNBA ownership groups were chosen to
lead the three new expansion teams, it's very clear that
(15:12):
the MNBA folks know that the WNBA is a meteoric
stock and they want in on it. So they can't
simultaneously argue that it's not a good business to be
in and they don't have the money to pay the
players more right.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And also too, I mean, if you look at their negotiations,
it's a tale as old as time. Anytime there's a
CBA negotiation, all of a sudden, the league is, oh,
we're not making money, or we've got X number of
franchises who aren't making money. I mean, we're still hearing
that from from Adam Silver, and we heard it from
David Strm before that. So don't tell me that, especially
(15:43):
when you've got this big TV contract coming in, you
have all these sponsors and we're seeing the valuations like,
you can't tell me that you don't have the money,
or that the league is not making money. That's just
it's and we've never expected that of men's leagues, whether
it's the NBA to NFL, Major League Baseball. Nobody cares.
Nobody ever asked that question. So why, I mean, I
(16:04):
know why we do it with the w.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
But that's what I was going to say, is when
we say it in the women's side that the league
is losing money, it means the product sucks and get
rid of it. When we say it on the men's side,
we know it's a negotiating tool, so we don't say
the same things. You know, some some have argued pretty
well that the WNBA undervalued its most recent TV rights deal.
It's under to make claims when there's so little transparency
(16:27):
from the WNBA and the NBA about their books. But
how do you see the way Kathy Engelbert and Adam
Silver and company have handled the league's recent rise, whether
it comes to that TV deal negotiation or beyond.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I am one of the people who thinks that TV
deal is undervalued by how much? I don't know, but
we're seeing it with you know, we've seen it with
the ratings. We're seeing it in attendance. I mean, there
is a market there, and I think and I think
it's the same thing with the NC double A contract.
There are people who are doing these negotiations who still
don't buy it, or you know, it seems like they
(17:03):
think that, oh, this is still a brief moment in time.
It's you know, one of those those blips, and in
a year or two we're going to come back down
to earth. There's been sustained growth since twenty nineteen, So
don't tell me that you need a little more time
to figure it out. Now. Kudos to ESPN for going
(17:23):
all in on all of women's sports, but the w
in particular. But I think there was a way to
get more money. And I think maybe you know, whether
it was the NBA wanting, you know, having to deal
with its own negotiations for its contract too, I don't know.
I just I think anytime you bundle contracts together, I
(17:43):
don't think it's a good Somebody ends up coming out
the poor for it. And it was never going to
be the NBA, right, you.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Know, There's been so much talk in the last couple
of years about players of color and queer players not
getting the same marketing opportunities, sponsorship deals. I mean that
conversation has been going on longer than in the last
couple of years, but it's really been elevated in the
last couple of years. We have seen some good progress
on that front. Is it naive to expect a problem
that exists in society as a whole to be eradicated
(18:11):
in full in sports? Or should and can we demand
more from a women's professional sports league, especially one that
is so predominantly made up of women of color.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I mean, I don't think you ever give anybody a
pass on these on discrimination and erasure. You know it
wrong is wrong. I don't care what scenario you're talking
about here. And I think you know, the players themselves
talk about how important representation is, and they recognize that
(18:42):
anything that they are doing, or any benefits that they're
reaping right now are because of the Dawn Staley's, the
Tamika catchings, the Cynthia Coopers that you know, Asia was
wearing Cynthia Cooper's jersey the other day. They recognize that
this league was built on the shoulders in the backs
of women of and queer women, and they're telling people
(19:03):
anytime they've got the opportunity. Hey, we recognize that. You know,
we're carrying it forward. We are an inclusive league, and
shame on the fans who aren't recognizing that and who
are refusing to see quite frankly, the beauty of this
league that you know, it shows what's possible when you
don't put restrictions and labels on people just because of
(19:25):
what they look like or who they love.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Right, as I mentioned earlier, All Star Weekend is coming up.
You actually wrote a column arguing that Caitlin Clark could
quiet some of the worst of her fan base, some
of those people you were just referring to by selecting
Angel Rees to her All Star team, acknowledging that there
will be some who will still send all those horrific
racist messages to Reese and other players who are deemed
(19:48):
quote unquote enemies of Clark. But you wrote, quote Clark
and Reese being on the same All Star team, connecting
on the court, laughing together and high fiving one another
could show the still persuadable folks this animosity is the
stuff off of their own imaginations and it's time to
move on. And wouldn't it be nice if this All
Star Game was the catalyst for defanging the WNBA's worst
fans and making the league once again a place to
(20:09):
simply enjoy basketball. End quote. That did not happen. So
now missed opportunity in your mind that Clark didn't do that.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I think a missed opportunity. You know, it's an All
Star game. You know, nobody takes these things seriously anyway,
So yeah, I think it would have been a good opportunity.
I Angel and Caitlin can say all they want, We
are fine, we don't have beef. You know, Are they
the best of friends? Of course not. They're in different teams,
(20:41):
different cities, they grow up different places, whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
But I think it could have.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Quieted some people or made them rethink the animosity that
they have toward Angel and other players. But you know,
maybe the same thing could happen if they have a
nice moment during the game, or if there's something beforehand.
You know, I'm sure it's going to come up, It's
going to get asked. But yeah, I think it would have.
It would have been helpful if they would have been
(21:09):
on the same team.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, we saw that with Diana Tarassi. You remember she
made a completely innocuous and normal comment about Kaitlyn coming
into the league and like get ready for the different level.
Brook and certain folks blew that up as some sort
of you know, trash talking or being rude or mean.
But then when we saw them on the court together,
laughing and having fun, it sort of shut down that
whole narrative. So we could get the same thing even
(21:31):
if they're on opposing sides, which would be nice. But
not only did Kaitlin Clark not select Reese for her team,
thereby allowing that fire to continue raging for many folks,
she fanned the flames of another alleged rivalry with Cheryl
Reeve by trading coaches for this game instead of just
playing for the Minnesota Link's head coach. Now if Yousa Khalier,
(21:52):
I think later said it was her idea, but what
we saw on the broadcast was Caitlin Clark saying, we
don't really care what the rules are. We're trading coaches now.
I like Caitlin Clark. I like watching her play, I
like her fire. I like that she's a red ass.
That's how I played basketball. I don't expect her to
be nice to everyone, and I don't expect her to
answer to everyone who has created these insane narratives around
(22:14):
and about her. But I will also say I've given
Clark a lot of patients and grace coming into this league,
being a young woman under a microscope, trying to manage
an unmanageable amount of attention, being put into situations that
many young people would not be able to handle well.
But I have to ask, is it time to ask
whether she's really interested in tackling some of these narratives
(22:37):
or might she in fact agree with some of them?
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, and you know, that's a difficult question, and it's
one I've asked. I wrote that actually last year that
you know, was she meeting the moment? Was she doing
enough herself? I mean, and again let's start off by
saying she did not ask to be put in this situation.
And we are asking a lot of a twenty two
now twenty three year old to shut down some of
(23:01):
the worst, you know, some of these awful narratives. At
the same time, you know, what's the old saying to
whom much is given much as expected? People are using
her for their narratives, and they're using her for some
really awful things. I mean, if you all you have
to do is go through somebody's social media if they've
had delivered a hard follow on Clark and it's it's awful.
(23:24):
I think she has tried to do it. You know,
she has answered it when people have asked her directly.
I think the strongest statement that she made was in
the Time Athlete of the Year article when she said, no,
you don't speak for me. You know that is not
those are not my beliefs. I think she's going to
have to and I think it would be helpful if
she would come out stronger, and if she would do
it on her, you know, of her own volition, as
(23:46):
opposed to doing it in response to a question. You know,
this is going to come up at All Star Week.
Somebody's going to ask her about why she was willing
to trade share all or where were their ulterior motives
for it. I don't believe that there were. I think
it was just you know, for you wanting her own
coach and why wouldn't you? But yeah, she's got If
she doesn't know that this is fanning the flames, she's
(24:08):
naive and she's past the point of being able to be.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Naive, right, And that's how I feel it's that, Yeah,
it's a lot to ask of someone, but also, there
are so many tiny little things she could do if
it mattered to her that it feels like she doesn't
do so. Just saying once or twice when directly responding
to something, yeah, those people don't speak for me. That's
not who I am isn't the same as any million
(24:33):
other things she could do. If she really didn't like
seeing all of this associated with her. It would kill
me to see all these people using me to represent
something like that. And as much as she says she
just wants to be about basketball and everything else, like,
let's take this other part of it. So your colleague
Christine Brennan was on this show last season talking about
several alleged grievances that Clark should have with those around her,
(24:57):
not just Cheryl Reeve and Angel Reese, but also the
players who didn't anoint her as the Second Coming before
she'd ever played a game, or the WNBA itself for
not properly preparing for her arrival. Now, there's a real
argument to be made on that last one, So let's
start with that. How do you think the league did
last year taking advantage of or not taking advantage of
the superpower that Clark brought with her, from the way
(25:19):
they handled airline travel to marketing to everything else.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, they were woefully unprepared. And you know that I
think was shown when you know Cathy's comments at the
end of the season when she went I think it
was on CNBC when she somebody asked her about the
toxicity and she was like, oh, rivalries are great, and
then you know, pivoted to Magic Johnson and Larry Bird,
which was completely ignorant of the fact that, yes, rivalries
(25:44):
are great, but not when they are steeped in racism
and misogyny like this one has been. And so if
you had the commissioner of the league who doesn't understand it,
how can you expect anybody else to be dealing with it?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So, yes, the league was.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Woefully prepared from charter flight underprepared, underprepared. Yes, they just were,
and they shouldn't have been because they had a two
year run up or a year and a half run
up of seeing you know, this this phenomenon, this frenzy
around around Clark and also around Angel Reese, you know,
(26:19):
at the title game. They should not have been caught
unaware and yet it was like all of a sudden,
you know, Clark just dropped in from out of the sky,
and that's that's that's my professional to.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Me, and I think having that conversation is completely fair.
I think it gets muddied by creating all the other grievances. So,
you know, Christine Brennan suggests the n WNBA has done
such a bad job that Clark and Nike could start
their own league to compete with the w NBA, amongst
other things. I feel like this constant hitting of Clark
(26:53):
against the league and against other players must be very
difficult for her. Like I know she probably loves the
public acknowledgment that she's in the league of her own
when it comes to popularity, which is true, but it
also feels so isolating and to isolate her from the
rest of the players in her league and from the
rest of the sport, to me, that feels like it's
gonna be hard for her. Do you think that ultimately matters,
(27:16):
both for her experience as a player and the impact
it might have on the w to keep trying to
create this fissure between her and everybody else.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Well, I think the larger issue is why the f
are we always pitting women against each other? Why? Like
it is It's maddening to me because is she gonna
like every single player in the league?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Now?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Is every player in the league gonna like her?
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Do we care when that is the same case in
the NBA or the NFL. No, we get a kick
out of it, you know, we like.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You know, when.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Lebron talks trash or you know, trying to decide if
he and Steph are buddies or not, or.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Like this, this need to.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Have women be cat fighting or this this narrative that
women are incapable of doing anything but cat fighting is
is so tired. It's like, these are unbelievable athletes and
they got where they are because they are insanely talented.
(28:29):
They're also competitive as hell, and that's a good thing.
Like that's if you are an elite athlete, that is
that's that's part of your DNA. And to pretend that
that's not the case, pretend or you know, try and
make it into something that it's not. It's like, again, why,
why why, why why do we always have to have
(28:50):
somebody sniping at each other. Why is not it enough
to just compare their games? And talk about you know,
how the discussion is is fee you know, is she
the MVP this year or is it still going to
be Asia? Or you know, why can't we just have
those discussions.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah. Well, and I think there's something to be said
for a little bit of the conversation and argument you
can have at the bar, right. We need that in sports.
There needs to be a little bit of tension. But
I think part of the reason that this bothers me
so much, and I've sort of moved past spending too
much time digesting or being critical of certain people covering
the league with whom I just completely fundamentally disagree and
(29:32):
with whom I think have lost the plot entirely. And
I've moved on to the impact of that, the impact
of which voices break through and end up causing everyone
else to have the conversations that they're having about the league.
It's already hard enough when the top search results are
AI generated garbage and slop with headlines that are like
this player breaks her silence on and it's like she
(29:54):
said she didn't follow her and like that's the article.
It's just a waste of time and people who don't
have great digital literacy, don't don't know who they should
be reading and where they should be going. So instead,
the WNBA landscape in terms of content sucks. There's some
really great people doing really great coverage, and a lot
of it is not getting down past the TikTokers and
the loud voices that are creating controversy, and to me,
(30:16):
it takes some of the fun out of it. And
I think right now you can argue, oh, it's making
people interested, but eventually it will, I think, dim the
light of the league and its players, take away from
the fun and the greatness and the excitement of sports
in favor of the fighting, and it will ultimately make
the product less valuable. And Caitlin too. I think when
(30:37):
I was coming up watching Michael Jordan be this superstar
and later in his career, my favorite thing was watching
my DVDs and VHS's because I'm old of other players,
opponents of Michael talking about how great he was to
see these guys who were as competitive as all get
out putting that down for a second to say, man,
(30:59):
that guy could fly. There were clips of opposing team
benches who had to catch themselves reacting to something Michael
Jordan did, and stopping themselves from like being too demonstrative
about how amazing it was. Because they were playing against him,
they won't worth be enjoying whatever he was doing. Imagine
if we had that instead. Imagine if when Caitlin was
doing the things she does and shooting from half court,
(31:20):
we could have the kind of atmosphere that allowed for
other players to say, man, I wanted to beat that
ass today. But did you see that like we saw
with Brianna Stewart and Caitlin in that one game a
couple weeks ago where Brianna tried her best a garter,
Caitlyn had a step back interface they kind of had
a laugh on the way down. That's more fun for me.
That's what I would like this to be. And I
think the more we isolated, the less fund she'll have,
(31:42):
the less fun will have watching, and eventually it will
take a toll on the league.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, I don't disagree with that, and I think, you know,
I have noticed there to be more discussions or more
people willing to come out and say I'm not a
Lark fan or I'm not a Fever fan because of
her fan base, not because of her. Yeah, it is
and I think two things. I think, you know, Clark, hopefully,
(32:09):
as she gets older and more comfortable, she will you know,
do her part to tamp that down. But I also think,
you know the fact that we have Page coming in
this year, We're gonna have Juju in a couple of years.
The level of talent we're seeing it with Kiki Rif
and Sonya Cetron, the level of talent is getting so
high that I think that's you know, it's not going
(32:33):
to be and it isn't right now, but it's not
going to be just this one player that everybody is watching.
I think you're you know, you're going to have people
who are Caitlin fans, You're going to have people who
are Juju fans. You're gonna have people who are Page fans.
And I think that is going to do a lot
to reset the narrative. At least that's my hope.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, and Asy Fudd coming in, there's Yeah, there's just
a lot of talent that's going to be in the
league that's going to make it hopefully just simmer on
this stuff. And for those listening who are like, if
you hate it so much, why keep talking about it?
Good point? Agreed, I have been trying my best not
to engage too much in these conversations, but I do
think it's very hard when so many people who are
(33:15):
not in the media space, or who are not super
super diehards, keep coming to me with repeated narratives that
are coming from some of these voices, and it reminds
me how much of a high percentage of the people
watching are getting caught up in all this BS and
it's hard. It's frustrating to watch. But a lot of
folks are doing a great job of telling the right
(33:36):
stories and covering the league in a really cool and
interesting and fascinating way. And I think as we continue
to give those people more of the mic and more resources,
hopefully we can offset some of the other stuff. And
one of those people doing that great work is you, Nancy,
So we always appreciate you coming out and chatting with us.
I'll get the Britney spears ready and I'll see you
in Indy.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
All right, sounds good, Take care, we have.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
To take another break when we return. I'll tell you
where you can find me at WNBA All Star Weekend.
Welcome back Slices. We always love to hear from you.
Hit us up on email good game at wondermedianetwork dot
com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two
(34:22):
two oh four fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe
a rate and review, y'all. It's easy watch the Women's
Euro twenty twenty five tournament set in records, rating, Hella
goals and Hella butts in seats review. Okay, this is
pretty cool, y'all. YUWEIFA confirmed that the group stage of
Women's Euro twenty twenty five in Switzerland absolutely smashed the
(34:45):
highest attendance record in the history of the tournament over
the last two weeks. Now the previous show, we told
you that the group stage attendance record was already broken
through the first two match days. Well, four hundred and
sixty one thousand, five hundred and eighty two people attended
the twenty four game. That's over one hundred thousand more
than the crowds who watched in England in twenty twenty two.
(35:05):
That's not all. The group stage also saw eighty nine goals,
the highest number ever scored in the group stage. The
previous record, also set in twenty twenty two, was seventy eight.
I think UEFA women's football director Nadine Kestler said it
best quote. If it was not clear before, it is undeniable.
Now women's football is unstoppable and here to stay. End quote.
(35:27):
Now it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, y'all.
We'll see you tomorrow when the Woman, the Myth, the Legend.
Megan Rapino joins us for a belated birthday celebration. Good Game, Nancy,
Good Game, Boston and Boston, Hugh Spain, No Sarah Spain Day,
Get on It. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an
(35:49):
iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by
Wonder Median Aptwork, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones.
Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan
and Emily Rutterer. Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez,
(36:11):
Grace Lynch, and Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones.
Production assistance from Avery Loftis and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're celebrating
our birthday. That's right, our first episode went live a
calendar year ago today. Apparently that means good game. Zodiac
sinus cancer, which is six days away from being Leo.
Close enough. It's Wednesday, July sixteenth, and on today's show,
we'll be bringing you my conversation with USA Today sports
(00:21):
columnist Nancy Armor. We'll talk about the upcoming WNBA All
Star Game, whether Caitlin Clark could be doing more and
not just on defense, and what three new expansion teams
say about the WNBA's relationship with the MNBA. Plus, a
fire is rekindled, a footy player makes your way back
to the States, and the Women's Euro twenty twenty five
soccer tournament breaks some records. It's all coming up right
(00:44):
after this welcome back slices. Here's what you need to
know today in WNBA news, we said we wanted to
(01:04):
hear more from the Portland WNBA team, and they delivered,
finally giving us the good Stuff name and branding. It's official.
The squad's going to be named the Portland Fire OGWNBA
fans will remember the Fire as the name the Portland
W team had in its short lived first iteration from
two thousand to two thousand and two, and they're bringing
(01:25):
it back for another run, this time in a new
era for the W. The franchise made the announcement on
Good Morning America Tuesday morning. And while the name is
staying the same, the logo is brand new. And that
new logo flames from the sides of my face, flaming, heaving.
I oh sorry, that's from clue. No, it's literally flames.
(01:47):
It's got a rose with petals that extend and resemble flames. Anyway,
we'll link to it in our show notes and you
could see it for yourself. Over an Athletes Unlimited, the
orgs AU Pro Basketball five on five league released its
first batch of signees for the upcome twenty twenty sixth season,
and they got some big names folks like Sid Colson,
Tahina Pow Pow, and Ariel Atkins. Now you might recall
(02:08):
Atkins played in the inaugural season of Unrivaled three on
three Nafisa Kallier and Brianna Stewart's league, but she decided
to make the switch to AU. A Chicago Skyguard told
the ESPN She's got no beef with unrivaled, but after
talking to players who had competed in AU, she wanted
to give it a shot, and she's excited about the
new opportunity. The twenty twenty sixth AU Pro Hoop season
(02:28):
starts up on February fourth in Nashville, Tennessee. Even more
athletes unlimited. The inaugural season of the AU Softball League
aka the AUSL has its second trade. Just like the
first trade, the Blaze are involved. The team sent infielder
Danielle Gibson Horton to the Bandits for right handed pitcher
Devin Nets. The move comes as the Blaze have struggled
(02:49):
on the mound. They've got the worst urn run average
in the league at seven forty, and they've given up
the most home runs with twenty three. In fact, the
Blazes have struggled pretty much everywhere. They're at the bottom
of the standings, which is five wins this season. Let's
head to a sports collab we love Indiana Fever forward
Aliah Boston is making a money move, purchasing an undisclosed
(03:09):
stake in the NWSL's Boston Legacy FC, an expansion team
set to begin play in twenty twenty six. The team
confirmed Boston's investment on Monday, while she and her Fever
teammates were in Boston preparing to play the Connecticut Sun
at TD Garden on Tuesday night. The WNBA star grew
up in Massachusetts, and in a statement shared by the
Boston Club, she said, quote, this city helped raise me,
(03:31):
and the support I felt here shaped so much of
who I am. I couldn't be more excited to have
the opportunity to invest in a franchise that's building something
special for its players, for the city, and for women's
sports as a whole. End quote And I mean, her
name is Boston, y'all. It just makes sense. Plus the
investment is that the only news to come from Eliah
Boston's time in the Northeast. She was also honored as
(03:54):
a hometown Hero at the Massachusetts State House, and the
city of Boston declared July fourteenth, Aliah Boston Day. We
love to see it more w On Monday, the Atlanta
Dream announced that guard Ryan Howard is out for the
remainder of July with the left knee injury. She sustained
it during a contest against the Indiana Fever on Friday,
after being named an All Star earlier this month for
(04:14):
the third time in her career, she was drafted to
compete with Team Collier and Indy. She'll now be replaced
by Minnesota Links guard Kayla McBride. Per the Dream, she
is expected to make a full recovery and will give
you a timeline for her return when we get it.
And a little more. WNBA veteran guard Tiffany Mitchell has
found a new home. The free agent guard in her
tenth year in the league, has signed with the Seattle Storm.
(04:37):
Mitchell started the season with the Las Vegas Aces and
averaged three point seven points and one point eight rebounds
in sixteen games, but she was waived at the end
of June in the team's trade for forward Melissa Smith.
And finally, we've got a soccer player on the move.
We've told you about lots of American players heading across
the pond to play, but now we've got one crossing
on back. The Seattle Rain announced that the club has
(04:59):
signed US national team forward me Official to a multi
year deal that runs through twenty twenty nine. The twenty
four year old began her professional career with Tigris uanl
of Mexico before spending the last two years in England
with Chelsea FC, though her appearances with the club were
limited because of an ACL tear she had in February
of twenty twenty four. Per ESPNS, Jeff Casoof Official's new
NWSL contract with the Rain is worth nearly two point
(05:22):
five million dollars over four and a half years, which
makes it the most valuable cumulative deal in NWSL history.
Glad to have you backstateside, Mia. We got to take
a quick break when we come back. Friend of the Show,
Nancy Armor is back, sit tight, joining us again here
(05:49):
on the show. She's been a sports columnist for USA
Today since twenty fourteen, previously spent twenty years with the
Associated Press and has covered every Olympics since nineteen ninety six.
She went to Marquette University for heading South to Land
in Chicago, and she never left. She's an award winning
journalist who's not afraid to tackle the tough topics in sports.
But she wasn't tough enough to withstand my book's ability
to make people ugly cry. It's Nancy Armor.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Hi, Nancy, Hello, Sarah, how are you?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I'm good. I assume I'll be seeing you at All
Star Weekend.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
You will, Yes, I'm driving down on Thursday.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Okay, did oh we showed a carpoorld. I know, we relationship.
What would be the number one choice for music in
our carpool? What are you starting with?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Ooh? Well, we could do recap of podcasts, like all
of season one, because that's what I use like long
drives for is I saw a podcast and then I
listened to them on that Otherwise I have not had
a chance to listen to the.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
New Bonnie Bear Okay album all the.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Way through, and so that might be it, which is
also kind of fitting for the W given his relationship
with the Links.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So I think I would start with that. What about you?
That feels very appropriate. I think we can start with
Bonyver due to the WNBA connection, but eventually a couple
hours in, when you're a little bit more delirious, you
need some sort of singles, so then we'll turn to
the Britney spears of it all. Yeah, that sounds good. Okay,
sounds like a plan. There are so many different activations
and events and parties and fan fests. There's no way
(07:18):
I can go to all of them, or even keep
track of all of them. Can you put into words
just how different things are in the WNBA than even
just a few years ago, based solely on looking at
this All Star weekend.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Oh my god, I mean you remember the All Star
Game was here in Chicago, what three years ago? Two
years ago, three years ago, and it is it's night
and day. Somebody had actually asked me a couple of
months ago, you know, hey, I'm booking travel, when do
I need to go.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Into All Star?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
And I said, honestly, you can probably get there Thursday
night Friday morning for availabilities. They'll do something, you know,
Kathy will do something on Saturday. And now it's like,
oh no, you need to be there like Thursday morning
because there's so much stuff. I mean, it's it is
not quite at the level of an NBA All Star Game,
but it's getting darn close. And it's really cool to
(08:08):
see because it's not just the you know, traditional women's
basketball or women's sports media and no offense to any
of us, but these are big time sponsors and they
have gotten hip to the idea that this is a
major event. This is right up there with the Super Bowl,
the Men's All Star Game, Major League Baseball's All Star Game.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So yeah, it's really it's blown up. And I wonder
if the Chicago one did have any effect on choosing
cities and alerting them. I remember talking to someone from
Choose Chicago and the Chicago Sports Commission that was so
frustrated by how short the timeline was of when the
game was assigned and how long they had to prep
for it. There were some pretty big complaints levied at
(08:52):
the W for that when compared to what the city
knew they might get from an NBA because we had
hosted the NBA All Star Are not that many years before,
and they had such a long timeline. So hopefully the
league is giving cities a little bit more time to
work with now that there are so many things going on.
Speaking of that, what do you think the biggest challenge
for the W is in the next few years. We've
(09:14):
got three more expansion teams named. That's five new teams
in the next five years. Is the league ready for
this expansion both in terms of talent and front office readiness?
Is it ready for rosters to be full in all
those places? Like? What do you see as the next
big thing for the W?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Well, I think talent wise, there definitely is. In fact,
the links we're just in town and I asked Cheryl
read about this because they had to waive Llissa Pilly
and I said, I asked Cheryl, I said, you know
you're getting these you know, these five new teams, but
it's not going to be all fully scaled until twenty thirty.
Do rosters need to be expanded? And she said absolutely
(09:51):
yes that there are plenty of people. As she said,
you know, the first week of the season, there were
already teams getting you know, doing hardship contracts because of injuries. Uh,
just you know you've got national team duty. Is Camilla
Cardoso has just gone from the sky for a couple
of weeks for that. So yeah, I think the talent
level is there. I think it's time for if nothing else,
(10:14):
you know, creating a pot of practice players that you
could have even that. So I think that's the big thing,
one of the big things. But the biggest thing is
obviously the CBA. You know, this is that's the thing
that's hanging over this entire season. It's going to be
hanging over all Star week. This is a pivotal for
the w and I think everybody knows that. I think,
(10:38):
you know, the players you don't want what they're worth
and deserve to be paid. And well, the w says
that they recognize that. I'm not sure if they actually do,
so that to me is the biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
It's that's that.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Has got to get resolved before there's a lockout.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, you mentioned the practice players, and I will point
out you know, in the past, obviously they weren't allowing
for players women players to be practice players because they
worried that teams might hoard someone that could be available
to another team. I think potentially there could be some
sort of rule wherein at any point a team can
steal a practice player for their roster in order to
(11:16):
allow for more of those players to stick around and
be around the league and playing in those places. But
you know, there's also some folks who have gone to
play in three x three leagues and other spots to
keep their games strong, and maybe that's a better opportunity
than feeling like you need to be on a practice
squad to be part of the pool for consideration and
suffering in terms of pay and everything else. So lots
(11:36):
for them to figure out when it comes to filling
out rosters and everything else. Yes, yes, you mentioned the CBA.
Negotiations for the CBA are underway and the players rejected
the league's first proposal. Didn't sound great, so too, soably
called it quote a slap in the face. You actually
penned a story about how the WNBA and its NBA
co owners won't be able to employ their usual tactics
(11:59):
of crying poor. For this, you wrote, the Golden State
Valkyries lead the league with a five hundred million dollar valuation,
which is a whopping ten times what owners Joe Lacup
and Peter Gruber paid to get the expansion team just
two years ago. The average valuation is two hundred and
sixty nine million, and six teams are worth two hundred
and fifty million or more. To put it simply, the
w is a growth stock, a rocket fueled one, and
(12:20):
the players know it. End quote. So I think if
you combine that with the public pressure that Shure decide
with the players, plus statistics showing that the W players
should be making a third to a quarter of NBA
player salaries but instead get about an eightieth of NBA
player salaries based on revenue sharing, that feels like a
pretty tough fight to win, at least publicly for the
w So, as you mentioned, they seem to get that
(12:43):
the players want more, but you're not sure they really
understand the battle that they're fighting here.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, and I've said this to a couple of people
in the last week or so that this actually reminds
me a lot of the US women's national team in
twenty nineteen that for so many years the women had
you know, they knew that they weren't getting their full value,
but there were things that they absolutely needed, like healthcare benefits,
maternity care, you know, childcare provisions, and so they took
(13:13):
I don't want to say that they took what they
could get, but they picked, you know, they had to
pick their battles. But in twenty nineteen they'd had it.
You know, they knew they could see from the crowds,
they could see from ratings, they could see from people
asking about merch, they could see from the NWSL there's
a market here and we're being undervalued. And so that
(13:35):
that contract fight in twenty nineteen it was really the
players saying we've had enough. You know, you're going to
give us what we deserve and if not, you're going
to pay the consequences for it in terms of a
negative public perception. And I really feel like that's where
the W is right now. The players, and I think
that they've you know, they've known their value, but they're
(13:57):
really dug in. I don't want to say dug in,
but they're they're really in knowing that they have been
short changed and need better. And I don't know that
the W appreciates how much the players realize that and
how significantly the public is going to be on their side.
You know, if they have a walkout and you can't
(14:18):
see Kitlin Clark or Angel Reese or Pagebackers play, I mean,
there's gonna be like a riot from some you know,
W fans, And I don't, like I said, I don't
think that the W fully appreciates.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
That right well. And also it's so hard to say
I'm sorry, we can't afford that while acknowledging that m
NBA ownership groups are the ones that are getting these teams.
So when we look at the league's history, we know
that the WNBA might not have made it through some
of the lean years without the MNBA, obviously, but it
also often feels like the MNBA is holding the WNBA
(14:51):
back right now, especially because we have leagues like the
NWSL and the PWATL that succeed on their own without
needing ownership to be combined with a pro league. So
what message does it send about the crying poor of
it all? When three MNBA ownership groups were chosen to
lead the three new expansion teams, it's very clear that
(15:12):
the MNBA folks know that the WNBA is a meteoric
stock and they want in on it. So they can't
simultaneously argue that it's not a good business to be
in and they don't have the money to pay the
players more right.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
And also too, I mean, if you look at their negotiations,
it's a tale as old as time. Anytime there's a
CBA negotiation, all of a sudden, the league is, oh,
we're not making money, or we've got X number of
franchises who aren't making money. I mean, we're still hearing
that from from Adam Silver, and we heard it from
David Strm before that. So don't tell me that, especially
(15:43):
when you've got this big TV contract coming in, you
have all these sponsors and we're seeing the valuations like,
you can't tell me that you don't have the money,
or that the league is not making money. That's just
it's and we've never expected that of men's leagues, whether
it's the NBA to NFL, Major League Baseball. Nobody cares.
Nobody ever asked that question. So why, I mean, I
(16:04):
know why we do it with the w.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
But that's what I was going to say, is when
we say it in the women's side that the league
is losing money, it means the product sucks and get
rid of it. When we say it on the men's side,
we know it's a negotiating tool, so we don't say
the same things. You know, some some have argued pretty
well that the WNBA undervalued its most recent TV rights deal.
It's under to make claims when there's so little transparency
(16:27):
from the WNBA and the NBA about their books. But
how do you see the way Kathy Engelbert and Adam
Silver and company have handled the league's recent rise, whether
it comes to that TV deal negotiation or beyond.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I am one of the people who thinks that TV
deal is undervalued by how much? I don't know, but
we're seeing it with you know, we've seen it with
the ratings. We're seeing it in attendance. I mean, there
is a market there, and I think and I think
it's the same thing with the NC double A contract.
There are people who are doing these negotiations who still
don't buy it, or you know, it seems like they
(17:03):
think that, oh, this is still a brief moment in time.
It's you know, one of those those blips, and in
a year or two we're going to come back down
to earth. There's been sustained growth since twenty nineteen, So
don't tell me that you need a little more time
to figure it out. Now. Kudos to ESPN for going
(17:23):
all in on all of women's sports, but the w
in particular. But I think there was a way to
get more money. And I think maybe you know, whether
it was the NBA wanting, you know, having to deal
with its own negotiations for its contract too, I don't know.
I just I think anytime you bundle contracts together, I
(17:43):
don't think it's a good Somebody ends up coming out
the poor for it. And it was never going to
be the NBA, right, you.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Know, There's been so much talk in the last couple
of years about players of color and queer players not
getting the same marketing opportunities, sponsorship deals. I mean that
conversation has been going on longer than in the last
couple of years, but it's really been elevated in the
last couple of years. We have seen some good progress
on that front. Is it naive to expect a problem
that exists in society as a whole to be eradicated
(18:11):
in full in sports? Or should and can we demand
more from a women's professional sports league, especially one that
is so predominantly made up of women of color.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I mean, I don't think you ever give anybody a
pass on these on discrimination and erasure. You know it
wrong is wrong. I don't care what scenario you're talking
about here. And I think you know, the players themselves
talk about how important representation is, and they recognize that
(18:42):
anything that they are doing, or any benefits that they're
reaping right now are because of the Dawn Staley's, the
Tamika catchings, the Cynthia Coopers that you know, Asia was
wearing Cynthia Cooper's jersey the other day. They recognize that
this league was built on the shoulders in the backs
of women of and queer women, and they're telling people
(19:03):
anytime they've got the opportunity. Hey, we recognize that. You know,
we're carrying it forward. We are an inclusive league, and
shame on the fans who aren't recognizing that and who
are refusing to see quite frankly, the beauty of this
league that you know, it shows what's possible when you
don't put restrictions and labels on people just because of
(19:25):
what they look like or who they love.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Right, as I mentioned earlier, All Star Weekend is coming up.
You actually wrote a column arguing that Caitlin Clark could
quiet some of the worst of her fan base, some
of those people you were just referring to by selecting
Angel Rees to her All Star team, acknowledging that there
will be some who will still send all those horrific
racist messages to Reese and other players who are deemed
(19:48):
quote unquote enemies of Clark. But you wrote, quote Clark
and Reese being on the same All Star team, connecting
on the court, laughing together and high fiving one another
could show the still persuadable folks this animosity is the
stuff off of their own imaginations and it's time to
move on. And wouldn't it be nice if this All
Star Game was the catalyst for defanging the WNBA's worst
fans and making the league once again a place to
(20:09):
simply enjoy basketball. End quote. That did not happen. So
now missed opportunity in your mind that Clark didn't do that.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
I think a missed opportunity. You know, it's an All
Star game. You know, nobody takes these things seriously anyway,
So yeah, I think it would have been a good opportunity.
I Angel and Caitlin can say all they want, We
are fine, we don't have beef. You know, Are they
the best of friends? Of course not. They're in different teams,
(20:41):
different cities, they grow up different places, whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
But I think it could have.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Quieted some people or made them rethink the animosity that
they have toward Angel and other players. But you know,
maybe the same thing could happen if they have a
nice moment during the game, or if there's something beforehand.
You know, I'm sure it's going to come up, It's
going to get asked. But yeah, I think it would have.
It would have been helpful if they would have been
(21:09):
on the same team.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, we saw that with Diana Tarassi. You remember she
made a completely innocuous and normal comment about Kaitlyn coming
into the league and like get ready for the different level.
Brook and certain folks blew that up as some sort
of you know, trash talking or being rude or mean.
But then when we saw them on the court together,
laughing and having fun, it sort of shut down that
whole narrative. So we could get the same thing even
(21:31):
if they're on opposing sides, which would be nice. But
not only did Kaitlin Clark not select Reese for her team,
thereby allowing that fire to continue raging for many folks,
she fanned the flames of another alleged rivalry with Cheryl
Reeve by trading coaches for this game instead of just
playing for the Minnesota Link's head coach. Now if Yousa Khalier,
(21:52):
I think later said it was her idea, but what
we saw on the broadcast was Caitlin Clark saying, we
don't really care what the rules are. We're trading coaches now.
I like Caitlin Clark. I like watching her play, I
like her fire. I like that she's a red ass.
That's how I played basketball. I don't expect her to
be nice to everyone, and I don't expect her to
answer to everyone who has created these insane narratives around
(22:14):
and about her. But I will also say I've given
Clark a lot of patients and grace coming into this league,
being a young woman under a microscope, trying to manage
an unmanageable amount of attention, being put into situations that
many young people would not be able to handle well.
But I have to ask, is it time to ask
whether she's really interested in tackling some of these narratives
(22:37):
or might she in fact agree with some of them?
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, and you know, that's a difficult question, and it's
one I've asked. I wrote that actually last year that
you know, was she meeting the moment? Was she doing
enough herself? I mean, and again let's start off by
saying she did not ask to be put in this situation.
And we are asking a lot of a twenty two
now twenty three year old to shut down some of
(23:01):
the worst, you know, some of these awful narratives. At
the same time, you know, what's the old saying to
whom much is given much as expected? People are using
her for their narratives, and they're using her for some
really awful things. I mean, if you all you have
to do is go through somebody's social media if they've
had delivered a hard follow on Clark and it's it's awful.
(23:24):
I think she has tried to do it. You know,
she has answered it when people have asked her directly.
I think the strongest statement that she made was in
the Time Athlete of the Year article when she said, no,
you don't speak for me. You know that is not
those are not my beliefs. I think she's going to
have to and I think it would be helpful if
she would come out stronger, and if she would do
it on her, you know, of her own volition, as
(23:46):
opposed to doing it in response to a question. You know,
this is going to come up at All Star Week.
Somebody's going to ask her about why she was willing
to trade share all or where were their ulterior motives
for it. I don't believe that there were. I think
it was just you know, for you wanting her own
coach and why wouldn't you? But yeah, she's got If
she doesn't know that this is fanning the flames, she's
(24:08):
naive and she's past the point of being able to be.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Naive, right, And that's how I feel it's that, Yeah,
it's a lot to ask of someone, but also, there
are so many tiny little things she could do if
it mattered to her that it feels like she doesn't
do so. Just saying once or twice when directly responding
to something, yeah, those people don't speak for me. That's
not who I am isn't the same as any million
(24:33):
other things she could do. If she really didn't like
seeing all of this associated with her. It would kill
me to see all these people using me to represent
something like that. And as much as she says she
just wants to be about basketball and everything else, like,
let's take this other part of it. So your colleague
Christine Brennan was on this show last season talking about
several alleged grievances that Clark should have with those around her,
(24:57):
not just Cheryl Reeve and Angel Reese, but also the
players who didn't anoint her as the Second Coming before
she'd ever played a game, or the WNBA itself for
not properly preparing for her arrival. Now, there's a real
argument to be made on that last one, So let's
start with that. How do you think the league did
last year taking advantage of or not taking advantage of
the superpower that Clark brought with her, from the way
(25:19):
they handled airline travel to marketing to everything else.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, they were woefully unprepared. And you know that I
think was shown when you know Cathy's comments at the
end of the season when she went I think it
was on CNBC when she somebody asked her about the
toxicity and she was like, oh, rivalries are great, and
then you know, pivoted to Magic Johnson and Larry Bird,
which was completely ignorant of the fact that, yes, rivalries
(25:44):
are great, but not when they are steeped in racism
and misogyny like this one has been. And so if
you had the commissioner of the league who doesn't understand it,
how can you expect anybody else to be dealing with it?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So, yes, the league was.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Woefully prepared from charter flight underprepared, underprepared. Yes, they just were,
and they shouldn't have been because they had a two
year run up or a year and a half run
up of seeing you know, this this phenomenon, this frenzy
around around Clark and also around Angel Reese, you know,
(26:19):
at the title game. They should not have been caught
unaware and yet it was like all of a sudden,
you know, Clark just dropped in from out of the sky,
and that's that's that's my professional to.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Me, and I think having that conversation is completely fair.
I think it gets muddied by creating all the other grievances. So,
you know, Christine Brennan suggests the n WNBA has done
such a bad job that Clark and Nike could start
their own league to compete with the w NBA, amongst
other things. I feel like this constant hitting of Clark
(26:53):
against the league and against other players must be very
difficult for her. Like I know she probably loves the
public acknowledgment that she's in the league of her own
when it comes to popularity, which is true, but it
also feels so isolating and to isolate her from the
rest of the players in her league and from the
rest of the sport, to me, that feels like it's
gonna be hard for her. Do you think that ultimately matters,
(27:16):
both for her experience as a player and the impact
it might have on the w to keep trying to
create this fissure between her and everybody else.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Well, I think the larger issue is why the f
are we always pitting women against each other? Why? Like
it is It's maddening to me because is she gonna
like every single player in the league?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Now?
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Is every player in the league gonna like her?
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Do we care when that is the same case in
the NBA or the NFL. No, we get a kick
out of it, you know, we like.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You know, when.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Lebron talks trash or you know, trying to decide if
he and Steph are buddies or not, or.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Like this, this need to.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Have women be cat fighting or this this narrative that
women are incapable of doing anything but cat fighting is
is so tired. It's like, these are unbelievable athletes and
they got where they are because they are insanely talented.
(28:29):
They're also competitive as hell, and that's a good thing.
Like that's if you are an elite athlete, that is
that's that's part of your DNA. And to pretend that
that's not the case, pretend or you know, try and
make it into something that it's not. It's like, again, why,
why why, why why do we always have to have
(28:50):
somebody sniping at each other. Why is not it enough
to just compare their games? And talk about you know,
how the discussion is is fee you know, is she
the MVP this year or is it still going to
be Asia? Or you know, why can't we just have
those discussions.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah. Well, and I think there's something to be said
for a little bit of the conversation and argument you
can have at the bar, right. We need that in sports.
There needs to be a little bit of tension. But
I think part of the reason that this bothers me
so much, and I've sort of moved past spending too
much time digesting or being critical of certain people covering
the league with whom I just completely fundamentally disagree and
(29:32):
with whom I think have lost the plot entirely. And
I've moved on to the impact of that, the impact
of which voices break through and end up causing everyone
else to have the conversations that they're having about the league.
It's already hard enough when the top search results are
AI generated garbage and slop with headlines that are like
this player breaks her silence on and it's like she
(29:54):
said she didn't follow her and like that's the article.
It's just a waste of time and people who don't
have great digital literacy, don't don't know who they should
be reading and where they should be going. So instead,
the WNBA landscape in terms of content sucks. There's some
really great people doing really great coverage, and a lot
of it is not getting down past the TikTokers and
the loud voices that are creating controversy, and to me,
(30:16):
it takes some of the fun out of it. And
I think right now you can argue, oh, it's making
people interested, but eventually it will, I think, dim the
light of the league and its players, take away from
the fun and the greatness and the excitement of sports
in favor of the fighting, and it will ultimately make
the product less valuable. And Caitlin too. I think when
(30:37):
I was coming up watching Michael Jordan be this superstar
and later in his career, my favorite thing was watching
my DVDs and VHS's because I'm old of other players,
opponents of Michael talking about how great he was to
see these guys who were as competitive as all get
out putting that down for a second to say, man,
(30:59):
that guy could fly. There were clips of opposing team
benches who had to catch themselves reacting to something Michael
Jordan did, and stopping themselves from like being too demonstrative
about how amazing it was. Because they were playing against him,
they won't worth be enjoying whatever he was doing. Imagine
if we had that instead. Imagine if when Caitlin was
doing the things she does and shooting from half court,
(31:20):
we could have the kind of atmosphere that allowed for
other players to say, man, I wanted to beat that
ass today. But did you see that like we saw
with Brianna Stewart and Caitlin in that one game a
couple weeks ago where Brianna tried her best a garter,
Caitlyn had a step back interface they kind of had
a laugh on the way down. That's more fun for me.
That's what I would like this to be. And I
think the more we isolated, the less fund she'll have,
(31:42):
the less fun will have watching, and eventually it will
take a toll on the league.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, I don't disagree with that, and I think, you know,
I have noticed there to be more discussions or more
people willing to come out and say I'm not a
Lark fan or I'm not a Fever fan because of
her fan base, not because of her. Yeah, it is
and I think two things. I think, you know, Clark, hopefully,
(32:09):
as she gets older and more comfortable, she will you know,
do her part to tamp that down. But I also think,
you know the fact that we have Page coming in
this year, We're gonna have Juju in a couple of years.
The level of talent we're seeing it with Kiki Rif
and Sonya Cetron, the level of talent is getting so
high that I think that's you know, it's not going
(32:33):
to be and it isn't right now, but it's not
going to be just this one player that everybody is watching.
I think you're you know, you're going to have people
who are Caitlin fans, You're going to have people who
are Juju fans. You're gonna have people who are Page fans.
And I think that is going to do a lot
to reset the narrative. At least that's my hope.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, and Asy Fudd coming in, there's Yeah, there's just
a lot of talent that's going to be in the
league that's going to make it hopefully just simmer on
this stuff. And for those listening who are like, if
you hate it so much, why keep talking about it?
Good point? Agreed, I have been trying my best not
to engage too much in these conversations, but I do
think it's very hard when so many people who are
(33:15):
not in the media space, or who are not super
super diehards, keep coming to me with repeated narratives that
are coming from some of these voices, and it reminds
me how much of a high percentage of the people
watching are getting caught up in all this BS and
it's hard. It's frustrating to watch. But a lot of
folks are doing a great job of telling the right
(33:36):
stories and covering the league in a really cool and
interesting and fascinating way. And I think as we continue
to give those people more of the mic and more resources,
hopefully we can offset some of the other stuff. And
one of those people doing that great work is you, Nancy,
So we always appreciate you coming out and chatting with us.
I'll get the Britney spears ready and I'll see you
in Indy.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
All right, sounds good, Take care, we have.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
To take another break when we return. I'll tell you
where you can find me at WNBA All Star Weekend.
Welcome back Slices. We always love to hear from you.
Hit us up on email good game at wondermedianetwork dot
com or leave us a voicemail at eight seven two
(34:22):
two oh four fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe
a rate and review, y'all. It's easy watch the Women's
Euro twenty twenty five tournament set in records, rating, Hella
goals and Hella butts in seats review. Okay, this is
pretty cool, y'all. YUWEIFA confirmed that the group stage of
Women's Euro twenty twenty five in Switzerland absolutely smashed the
(34:45):
highest attendance record in the history of the tournament over
the last two weeks. Now the previous show, we told
you that the group stage attendance record was already broken
through the first two match days. Well, four hundred and
sixty one thousand, five hundred and eighty two people attended
the twenty four game. That's over one hundred thousand more
than the crowds who watched in England in twenty twenty two.
(35:05):
That's not all. The group stage also saw eighty nine goals,
the highest number ever scored in the group stage. The
previous record, also set in twenty twenty two, was seventy eight.
I think UEFA women's football director Nadine Kestler said it
best quote. If it was not clear before, it is undeniable.
Now women's football is unstoppable and here to stay. End quote.
(35:27):
Now it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, y'all.
We'll see you tomorrow when the Woman, the Myth, the Legend.
Megan Rapino joins us for a belated birthday celebration. Good Game, Nancy,
Good Game, Boston and Boston, Hugh Spain, No Sarah Spain Day,
Get on It. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an
(35:49):
iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports
and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by
Wonder Median Aptwork, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones.
Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan
and Emily Rutterer. Our editors are Emily Rutter, Britney Martinez,
(36:11):
Grace Lynch, and Gianna Palmer. Our associate producer is Lucy Jones.
Production assistance from Avery Loftis and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain
Host
Sarah Spain
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