June 30, 2025 • 42 mins
Look on the bright side, y’all! On this episode, Sarah joins Simone Boyce on Hello Sunshine’s “The Bright Side” podcast, and talks about why being pushed out of your “dream job” isn’t the end, what it means to be a woman who contains multitudes in a world that wants you to shrink, chasing big dreams, creating lasting change in women's sports and the power of owning every part of your story.
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Check out The Bright Side here
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Leave us a voicemail at 872-204-5070 or send us a note at goodgame@wondermedianetwork.com
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Follow Sarah on social! Bluesky: @sarahspain.com Instagram: @Spain2323
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Follow producer Misha Jones! Bluesky: @mishthejrnalist.bsky.social Instagram: @mishthejrnalist
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Follow producer Alex Azzi! Bluesky: @byalexazzi.bsky.social
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're sitting
by the pool with our feed up, enjoying the first
day of our break.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
But we couldn't leave you with that a little something
to listen to.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
It's Monday, June thirtieth, and on today's show, we're bringing
you my recent appearance on an episode of the Hello
Sunshine podcast The bright Side, hosted by Simone Voice. I
had the opportunity to hop on with Simone back in
May and talk about why being pushed out of your
quote unquote dream job isn't the end, what it means
to be a woman who contains multitudes and a world
that wants you to shrink, chasing big dreams, creating lasting
(00:30):
change in women's sports, and the power of owning every
part of your story. I really love this conversation with Simone,
and I think you all will too.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
That episode of The bright Side is coming up right
after this.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Okay, y'all, it is time to get this episode started.
We told you we put a lot of thought into
how we wanted to kick off this new season, and
we've been really intentional about who would set the time
for the kinds of conversations that we want to have
together And I told you, I told you I wanted
to go deeper with you this season, and we're doing
that today with someone who embodies main character energy. And
(01:11):
I'm not talking about the overused trendy way, No, I'm
talking about somebody who takes big swings, who wipes out
and still finds the audacity to get back up. Someone
who has stared down rejection, fear of failure, and that
relentless inner critic and chose to trust yourself anyway. Someone
who refuses to shrink or let the world put her
(01:33):
in a box. Someone like Sarah Spain. You probably know
Sarah from ESPN, from her razor sharp commentary on sports
and culture, or maybe just from being one of the
smartest voices in the media game right now. She's been
a fixture at ESPN for over a decade, across platforms
like Around the Horn, Highly Questionable, and Spain and Fits.
(01:53):
She's also an Emmy winner and a Peabody winner. Okay,
a longtime advocate for women in sports and equity and media,
which is one of the reasons why she created Good
Game with Sarah Spain, the first daily podcast dedicated to
women's sports and most recently, she's the author of the
new book Runs in the Family, which follows the real
life story of Delan McCullough, a father of four and
(02:14):
accomplished football coach whose world gets turned upside down when
he learns the truth about his family history. Y'all, I
knew going into this conversation that Sarah and I were
going to have a few things in common. I personally
know what it's like to climb through the ranks of
the media industry only to be met with constant rejection,
and also confronting the reality that there are going to
be suits and gatekeepers at every turn who want to
(02:36):
keep you in a box and make you stay in
your lane. But what I didn't expect was how candid
Sarah was about her setbacks and low points, and that
honesty was so liberating. It was so refreshing to hear,
and it really inspired me not to fear those moments,
but to embrace the freedom that comes on the other side.
(02:57):
All Right, it's time to hype up the ultimate hype woman.
Here's my conversation with Sarah Spain. Sarah Spain, Welcome to
the bright Side.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Congratulations on your book Runs in the family. You got
the most epic co sign from our very own Reese
Witherspoon on your story that this book is based on.
And here's what Rees said. Okay, she said, quote had
me in tears. It made me believe in fate, the
power of family and divine intervention. And this is the
best part. You know, this is the best part, she said.
(03:30):
It's so well written. I mean, you can't ask for
more than that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
She wrote about it on every platform.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
She posted on Instagram, Twitter, like LinkedIn, wherever, Facebook, every
single place she posted something so nice when it came out,
and it was like, honestly, like my cheeks hurt from smiling.
I was like, oh my god, did Reason and I
just become best friends. I'm still working on that part,
but yeah, and so it was such a nice boost
and like really awesome commentary from folks like that when
(03:57):
we first did the story for ESPN, where I think
a good little boost to get a book along the way.
And so now I'm really excited for everyone to read
the bigger, more full story.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Hey, she is the Queen of books, so I know
kind of endorsement does not hurt. What is your superpower
as a storyteller, And how do you think it's on
display in this book.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I would say it's two. I would say one is empathy.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I have a real desire to understand why people are
the way that they are. And I think as I've
gotten older, especially, I've become particularly interested in how people's
lives have been different from mine, the pathologies that people
get from the family systems in which they grow up,
or the interactions that they have with loved ones, friends, lovers, whoever.
(04:45):
I think it's a better way to go through life
to tell yourself a story about how people got to
be who they are instead of just being angry or judgmental.
And so, as I get older and I study more
about psychology, sociology, all the different things around just kind
of why people are who they are, it makes me
try to better understand people's choices instead of judging them.
(05:07):
And so, particularly in a book like this that has
these really complicated ideas of people who are dating, abuse
of men, or men with drug problems, people who are
struggling to pay the bills or maybe aren't making healthy choices,
you can write a book like that and be up
high on a hill and say, well, I never struggled
with that, so that was a bad choice instead of
trying to understand how they got to where they are.
(05:27):
So I think the empathy was huge for this one.
And then the other one is synthesizing ideas. I use
this across all my jobs, podcasting, radio, writing, TV. Essentially,
how do I get this thing that I want to
say or this thing someone else said and put it
into the right words to best express it.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
And for writing, I think, gosh, I should knock on wood.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
But I just never got writer's block during the book.
And I think part of that is like my brain
just naturally wants to take ideas and find a way
to make them almost fit a puzzle and get across
the themes or the stories nottes that I wanted to
make sure we're in there.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So I think those two superpowers were super helpful.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, I'll say, and you are the envy of writers
everywhere whoever probably ringing their hands experiencing writer's block right now.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
It probably jinks myself.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Speaking of synthesizing, would you just synthesize the story of
Runs in the Family for us?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So long story short.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Dylan McCullough is currently the Running Backs coach for the
Las Vegas Raiders. He grew up in Youngstown, Ohio, right
after the industrial collapse, so really tough time. There are
a lot of people without jobs. Oftentimes he was without
electricity or hot water. His family really struggled because his
adoptive dad left when he was two, so now he's
sort of doubly rejected by father. Figures growing up with
a single mom who's trying to make it work for
(06:44):
him and his brother Damon. He gets into football, ends
up getting recruited by a handful of people, including a
Youngstown fellow named Sherman Smith who had made it good
at the NFL level, who recruits him to go to
Miami of Ohio, breaks a bunch of records, tries to
go to the NFL, gets injured, eventually gets into teaching
and then coaching, and along the way starts a family.
Has four sons. Doesn't know anything about his medical history,
(07:05):
doesn't anything of his birth family, but as he gets
older with his kids, he decides he's interested, and eventually
the laws change. In Pennsylvania, where he was born, he
can find his birth certificate, finds his mom within like
a day on Facebook. She never got married, never had kids,
she's been looking for him, she's so excited to find him.
And now forty five years later, he asks, do you
(07:25):
know who my dad is? It's not on my birth certificate,
and she tells him and it's someone that's been in.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
His life for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
And the dad never knew either because he was never
told about the baby. So it's just a really incredible storied,
such a feel good story. But also I really wanted
to make sure it wasn't just about him. It was
a story anybody could find themselves in to try to
understand what's passed down via DNA versus, what's passed down
via family systems, generational trauma, language and messaging, and how
(07:54):
we get to decide what do we want to keep
with our family, even backwards to our parents. Is that
relationship serving us? Is that choice serving us? Or can
we decide to change? And how those are interwoven with
the things that were genetically handed that we can't choose.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Well, you clearly lead with empathy and curiosity, and I
think those are sister traits. They go hand in hand,
especially in the field of journalism, and in that field
you've worked across radio, television, podcasts, writing, what skill came first,
or which one feels most like you at your.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Core talking my poor parents, I just yeappen yeah, but professional? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Or since birth? Actually, it took me a little while
to start talking, and then once they did, they were like,
holy cow.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I remember literally, like nine or ten years old, asking
my parents if you can get paid to talk for
a living, and they were like, no, that's not a job.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And I'm like, found one genius.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I've been a professional yapper for many years now, and
I wish I had had the foresight to just speak
it into existence at such a young age. Apparently I
manifested it. Look at us now, I know we made
it work.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
But the curiosity aspect too, you know, I've always wanted
to do everything, try everything, do everything. I was in
band Chorus three, sports Talent show, went to college. I
was a heptathlete, which is literally the track event where
you don't pick one thing, you do all seven of them.
And then in ESPN and in my career podcast, national radio, writing, producing, television,
(09:26):
like all the things, and so I think the curiosity
to know how to do something and to try it,
and then to understand why people are the way they
are and get to know them. Those are a part
of wanting to be like a journalist and explore stories.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
What is it about challenging yourself in all these different
arenas that thrills you? Like why do you think you
do it? And why do you think you go after
everything so hard?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I have a lot of life fomo. But it's not envy,
if that makes a sense. Like I saw an interview
with someone the other day and it totally clicked for me,
and they said, when I see someone having success at
something I think I would.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Be great at, I have envy.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
There are plenty of times when I see people doing
great things and I'm just happy for them. But if
I'm happy for someone and there's a little bit of
envy and means it might be meant for me. And
I think that's how I felt growing up watching a
lot of stuff like oh I think I could do that,
and I think I could do it, well, let me
try it. But yeah, I mean I think also, I'm
pretty fearless. It's interesting. I feel fearless when I'm in control,
(10:29):
and the older I get, the more I recognize that
I do have issues with control. The first time I
do anything I'm nervous because I'm like, wait, okay, where
do I sit? What will the chair look like? Which
TV am I looking at? What's this question going to be?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Like? How is this?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
And then after one time that's it. Not nervous again,
totally fearless, practically naive. Won't even think about the fact
that tons of people are watching it's something terrible could
go wrong. It just doesn't phaze me. So I think
it's a naive fearlessness with like just a little twinge
of needing to, you know, settle in.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
That was a per self diagnosis that you can tell.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Reading a lot of books for this book about like therapy, trauma.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And six We've got to take a short break, but
more from Sarah after the break and we're back with
Sarah Spain. So, considering that you have this zest for
life and this life fomo, I want to hear what
(11:30):
success looked like to you when you were just starting out.
So can you take me back to that overachiever, younger
version of yourself who just graduated from Cornell where you
were co captain of the track and field team and
a HATA athlete. What was baby Sarah chasing at that
moment in time.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Well, right after Cornell, I was still chasing my first dream,
which was most of my life and still you know,
in the background even though it's not realistic at this point,
which was to be on Saturday Night Live. My dream
was to be an actress and comedian and performer. But
because I was doing all the sports and all the things,
it was always conflicting with like the school play and
other things like that. So I took some acting classes
(12:08):
at Cornell, I moved home to save up a little money,
and then I moved to La worked in a restaurant.
Like every stereotype says, did auditions, did acting classes, did
the Second City improv Conservatory. And it wasn't until I
took a TV hosting boot camp and the teacher had
us focus on something that we are an expert on
to practice and I was like, my expertise is like literature.
(12:30):
I was an English major, so that's not going to
be on a show. So I did a fake Chicago
Bears show. I just always been a sports fan and
an athlete. And the teacher said, oh, you want to
work in sports. It's like, no, there's no women in sports.
And I want to be funny and the only women
are like supermodels on the sidelines, like Aaron Andrews.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
And she said, well, it just seems natural you could
try it.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So I took a class in TV sports reporting at
Yucilie and I was like, Oh, this is so many things.
The writing, the extemporaneous thinking, the interview skills come out
of improv my knowledge base.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Having been a three sport athlete my whole life.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I always think of that when I consider the fact
that literally when they say you can see, if you
can see it, you can be it.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I never saw it.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
There were no women doing sports in Chicago growing up,
and it was just not really considered an option. I
think it's a good quality that I have that I
don't have grudges and I don't get stuck in any place.
But that also means when I look back, I'm sure
I have a much rosier view of like what it
(13:31):
was like back then. I think I really thought I
had something and I was so terrified no one else
thought that too.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But I was really insecure about what I look like.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I've never been as skinny as most of the people
on TV, despite being a heptathlete. Like my body type
is just not twig, and so I was so worried
watching who was making it and thinking, oh, they really
just care about what women look like. So my first
job was this fantasy football show that was just like
those online pop ups that used to pop up when
you would go to a sports site back in the
(14:01):
wild wild West of like very misogynist sports blogs, and
it was like, Hi, I'm your fantasy sports girl Sarah
with this week's fantasy football tips, and I had to
wear like cleavage tops, and like that was a big break.
I was in like Jim Rome's two million dollar studio
with ESPN producers, and that was the only way I
could get in, was like doing the stereotypical BS sexy stuff.
(14:25):
Meanwhile I was trying to do. I was filming my
own fake sketches for my hosting reel that were all
like comedic and silly and ridiculous, and I think that
was I think if you asked young me, I would
never dream of a single thing I've accomplished. And that's
what I tell myself every time I get an opportunity
and I'm scared to take it, is what I have said.
(14:47):
I'm gonna win it, Emmy or a Peabody, or get
to be on TV or do around the Horn, or
have my own show, or literally anything I've accomplished.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
I wish I could say I was that kind of dreamer.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I always believed I had something, but I don't think
I ever was brave enough.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I'm very afraid failure.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So if I never say the thing that I want
and put it out there, then I never have anyone
who could say, you said you wanted this and you
didn't get it, you failed.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
That's so real.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Okay, Wait, I have to rewind because there's so much
there that I want to unpact, so much that you
said I want therapy. So this show where you felt
like you were hyper sexualized when you were talking about sports.
What year was that, Uh, probably two thousand and five
because I remember also kind of becoming an on camera
(15:32):
personality around that time, and it was a different time
then that was really accepted, and that was a way
that you could get a footthold in the industry was
if you did kind of like a sexier spin on content.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
All the women in my business from that time remember that. Yeah,
we always had to be like, I'm a guys girl.
Most of my best friends are like, the only way
to be accepted in sports was essential to be like,
don't worry, I'm not actually a woman. I'm just a
hot chick who's a dude inside. And like, I talk
about that a lot when it comes to the evolution
(16:06):
of women's sports. Yeah, because we don't have to apologize
for being different. It's part of the authenticity that people enjoy.
And when we stopped having to pretend like we were
just like the guys, but you know, women, we got
to be funnier and more comfortable and villains and heroes
(16:26):
and masculine and feminine and queer and straight and all
the multi dimensional things that we let male sports athletes
and media be. And it was so restrictive and limiting
that it wasn't enjoyable. And then we open up the
door to let it be free, and it's like, oh,
this works.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
And you hinted at this. But there are even expectations
around what a funny woman looks like.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, or what whether women should be funny, whether women
are funny exactly, famous articles from Christopher Hitchins why women
aren't funny, And there's a lot of studies of if
a woman is attractive. We don't want you to make
yourself less attractive in order to be funny. Your number
one value is your looks, and you're trading on that
when you become funny. And I have found that restrictive
(17:10):
at every point in my career. So when I first
went back to Chicago, I was working for a startup
website and I brought a ton of my improv stuff
to it, and I was just having fun with player
personalities and bringing some creativity to it. And it was
very hard to make sure that like, I'm being funny,
but never in any way that could be misconstrued as sexual,
because people are already pushing all their opinions and their
(17:31):
feelings of sexuality onto you at every turn, and so
at every turn you're constantly like kind of trying to
look ahead and be like, oh, what's someone going to
say about this, or how are they going to perceive this?
And I was blindsided a million times by something I
did or said that somehow somebody made sexual when that
wasn't my intention, and it really prevents you from being
creative in so many ways.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I was also blindsided by this perception that you can't
be smart and funny at the same time, like I
experienced this in my career as a news journalist. It's
like people are just incapable of holding space for women
to be more than one thing. And this is something
that I'm saying, the drum about just embracing our multitudes.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Couldn't be more true. I used to talk about this
all the time. It was the idea of, like, we
have to put you in one box. Either you're the
hot girl, or you're the funny girl, or you're the
smart girl. And I found that early in my career too,
because I was doing like radio updates that were sort
of light and fun. And then I started working for
espnW and I was covering everything from silly stuff to
very serious stories about domestic violence and sexual assault. And
(18:35):
I knew how to be in different places as different
versions of myself and to bring the right approach and attitude.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
But not everyone else did.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And I think for women especially, there is this feeling
of we cannot view you as anything other than what
we decided you are. And your point about especially attractive women,
I think of someone like George Clooney's wife, or Michelle Obama,
or like people who are so unbelievably impressive and instead
it's like, but she looks great in that dress or
(19:04):
nice arms.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yeah, it's never ending, So I think you just have
to tune it out and do you.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, like the Nike ad says you can't win, so
just win, So just win.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Well, I want to get into the ESPN chapter of
your career, and it starts in this unexpected way because
I hear that you initially auditioned for ESPN and didn't
get the job right away. I love stories like this.
Can you tell me what happened next?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
So I was living in la at the time, flew
out for the audition, didn't get the job, and I
was wanting to take the next step in my sports career.
Got a job at Fox Sports Net this is precursor
to FS one, and was working behind the scenes, but
started doing those little fantasy show started writing for blogs
for free just to get some content up, and started
taking auditions and meetings, and I flew back to Chicago.
(19:51):
I took two weeks off to see if do I
want to try to work in Chicago where I know
the team's best because that's where I grew up. And
a friend of mine had a connection at a startup
website I ended up moving back to Chicago to work
for that place, Mouthpiece Sports, and it was from there
that I eventually got started at local ESPN radio, added
on writing for espnW, working for espnW and then national
(20:12):
radio around the Horn Sports Center. You say to all
the other stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, so just like hustling your way in there, getting
a foot in the door.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So you were there for about fifteen years, right, Yeah,
I think I'm close to fifteen ish. Yeah, and you're
still you're still working with ESPN, just in a reduced capacity.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yep, working with the espnW, so just focused on the
women's sports stuff, hosting a lot of their conferences and stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
So I'm thinking back to when you gain a foothold
inside an esteemed institution like that, there are moments that
remind you that all of your hard work was worth it.
And I can remember jumping from local news to national
news and finally having a fancy coffee machine at the
office and being like, oh, I've really made it. Like
(20:58):
they're paying for my coffee now. This is this is
the best. What are the pinchbe moments that you still
think about from your time there.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Oh, there's a couple. So one was I just wanted
to write on my tax forms sports reporter as my
job instead of you know, like a bunch of other
things or like waitress because that's where most of the
money was coming from. Like, yeah, I was really excited
when I could just put journalists as my occupation. Another
(21:25):
one was my very first job, which now that I
think about it's really not a huge deal, but at
the time it felt like such a big deal was
the update anchor at ESPN one thousand, which is ESPN Radio,
and so every fifteen to thirty minutes, I would hop
on and be like, hello and welcome to your Sports
Center Update.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I'm Sarah Spain.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Tonight the Chicago Cubs take on the Cincinnati Reds at
seven pm Easter But the thing that made me like
go crazy was the Sports Center music would play before
I started, so it'd go.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Da da da da da.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, this is Sarah Spain with your sports and I
was like, oh, my god, it's basically like I'm on
Sports Center, which it wasn't, but it felt like it.
And to be associated with the brand of ESPN in
any way, I was like, oh, I'm doing it. And
then you know, I always called Jamel Hill my fairy
career godmother. And there were a couple great mentors that
I've had along the way, but she in particular. I
(22:13):
was at an espnW summit, which is these three day conferences.
I was a total nobody. I was not involved in
the programming hardly at all. But I had one thing
that I did on stage and Jamel said, you know,
you're really great on stage.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
You should be doing TV. Why aren't you doing TV?
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And I said, well, back at home in Chicago, I
did like a local show, but I haven't done much
for ESPN. I've done one or two sports center hits
and that's it for the Blackhawks.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And I think they're just not ready. They haven't seen
enough tape.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
And she said, well, next time i'm off with my show,
I'm going to suggest that you host. And I was like, okay, sure,
And then about a month or two later they gave
me the call. I flew out to Bristol. I hosted
a live hour show with Michael Smith. Used to be
called Numbers never Lye and then became His and Hers.
And within that one show, Keith Oberman show calls me
(22:59):
outid the lines calls me. I just had to prove myself,
and so that pinched me moment of like somebody saw
me and thought I could do this and then put
me on the air, and I did.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I did a whole live national TV show.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
I was like, I can do this, And so I
always think about Jamel and try to think about how
I can be that person for other people.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
That is really really cool. It's so great to hear that,
and clearly Jamel is a girl's girl like that. That's
very meaningful when another woman stands in the gap for
you like that. Yeah, were there moments in during those
years where you were getting closer and getting closer where
you ever questioned what you were doing and felt like
giving up.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Not in the sports world.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I did feel that way about comedy and acting, particularly
because I did not really enjoy the scene. And you
hear about the casting couch, and it's very true, and
unfortunately the sports world is not a fix for that.
I was the victim of harassment on multiple occasions in
the sports world too, But it felt like there was
a more objective way to succeed, like if you know
(24:00):
your stuff, if you get really good at it, you
can succeed in spite of those people. And so I
think with the acting in comedy, I never felt like
I really was cooking with gas. And then when I
started in the sports world, it felt so natural and
it felt like, Oh, you're good at this, this is
where you should be. And so I never really lost
(24:21):
hope or had enough of a drought in that to
think like, oh, this isn't going to work.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Okay, So you're at ESPN for a while and then
eventually it sounds like something kind of shifted within you,
and I'm curious how you decided to give yourself permission
to distance yourself from that original vision of your dream
job and dream a bit differently.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, it was. It was a little bit of choice
and a lot of a shove.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Actually.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
So I had been doing national radio and some capacity
for thirteen years, from updates to hosting, and for seven
straight years I was doing nighttime national radio, and I
took a ton of pride in being a woman who
was on the slate which didn't exist other than me
in representing for women in that way.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But it was feeling less satisfying.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It was feeling super ephemeral to get on the air
every night for two to three hours and have whatever
I said float away and usually be the biggest hits
of the day. We certainly, throughout the various iterations of
my shows, tried to talk about other things, meaningful things,
women's sports, social issues like I really tried to make
the show a lot more than just playing the hits.
But I understood that there were limitations for that medium
(25:35):
in that space, and I had other projects that when
I did them and I put my time and effort
into them, I saw a lot of success with whether
that was the E sixty and the feature reporting I
did for Runs in the Family the First Time, or
a PSA I did called More Than Mean that ended
up winning a bunch of awards, including a Peabody, And
it felt like as long as I had radio every
single night, it was really going to prevent me from
(25:57):
spending time on things and making them great.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Part of radio that's great is it is immediate.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
You get your feedback right away, there's a community, you
have time to talk. But it's an imperfect science because
it's off the top of your head. When you really
take your time with a feature, you can edit and
turn it into the piece that you want. And I
wanted a little bit more of that, so I had
been talking to the radio side about trying to get
out of radio and figure out to do more of
the other stuff, and a particular executive there decided he
(26:26):
was just going to have me be gone altogether.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
And so after thirteen years, with two weeks notice.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
After they hadn't responded to a lot of calls from
my agent, he told me they were just not going
to resign me. And after our meeting, he said he
had spoken to them and there wasn't a lot of
interest in keeping me because he said, oh, without the radio,
you don't have much.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I said, I have E.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Sixties SportsCenter, my podcast, writing espnW, all these shows that
asked me to do more, and I haven't had time
to do more. I was filling it at ESPN Daily
and some other stuff. And he said, oh yeah, I
called around. There wasn't a lot of interest, I said,
So I called my bosses.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
How is your call with him? They said, what call?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I said, That's what I thought, So just you know,
I'm not being resigned, and they were furious, and they
worked to find a position for me at the company
outside of his department, But because he oversaw so much
of what I worked on, it really limited.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
What I could do.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
So it was a shove that was completely unexpected, and
I think I was very grateful that I had been
hosting a podcast for years, talking to people at times
about their worst times or their unexpected moments much more
severe than me being pushed out of a job that
I still really liked. It was people who suffered catastrophic injuries,
(27:38):
people who lost loved ones, people who are outright fired
and had no idea what to do next. And I
remember in those moments, while interviewing them, I would ask myself,
how would you react to this? And my very honest
answer to myself was terribly. You have been through nothing.
Your life has been privileged. You have been so lucky
in every way, and a lot of that is good
(28:01):
choices you've made and working hard and being kind, but
a lot of it is just luck and the privilege
of mental health from your family and a great upbringing.
And so time to start thinking about how you will react,
because it's not going to be this perfect forever. Something
will happen. And it wasn't cynical, and I wasn't waiting
for the other shoe to drop. It just afforded me
the opportunity to think about if something were to change
(28:22):
in this idyllic life I had made, what would I
do about it? And so when that happened, I gave
myself a couple of days to be angry and sad
and feel sorry for myself and scared about what was
coming next, because ESPN is the top of the mountain.
And then not only did I fight to make sure
I got to go out a little bit more on
my own, on my own terms by working for another
(28:43):
year in a handful of capacities. And now the last
couple of year or two has been just espnW, where
I'm still working with people I love working with about
something I care about. But I also took that time
to look at what I wanted and why I was
moving away from radio, what was going to be satisfying.
I think I had always wanted to do a lot
of intersection of sports and social issues because it felt
a little absurd to make a lot of money and
(29:04):
have a job where I'm just talking about people playing games.
It made me feel guilty almost that people who do good,
meaningful work are working harder, or making less money or
living a less privileged life than someone who's just like
going on TV and being like hell of a dunk.
So I always tried to find ways to make it
feel more meaningful. And when this happened, I sat down
and thought, what do I actually want to spend my
(29:25):
time on?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And I knew it was women's sports.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
How can I use the career I built and the
influence I have on something that feels metior and more
meaningful and more genuine to something I've cared about my
whole career and tried to intersect with my whole career.
And so, yeah, I got a shove. I'm doing awesome
things ever since that shove. I would never lie and
say that I wouldn't have been perfectly happy if they'd
(29:48):
let me stay on that path. I think I would have,
But things are different at ESPN now too, and looking
at it from a farm, I'm not sure how happy
i'd be if I was there full time.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I so respect the transparency with which she told that story,
because that's that is not easy to be. It is
not a small thing to be pushed out of a
dream job, and I'm sure it was extremely painful. So
I just really appreciate your vulnerability around sharing that story.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
You've got to be honest It's not that I was
dishonest when it first happened. I just was more vague
because I was really embarrassed. Like I talked about before,
I'm like terrified of failure. It felt like a failure.
I'd never had that before. Yeah, And I was so glad.
I had talked to so many successful people who had
had failures or who had been let go or who
(30:37):
had had things that go their way, so I could
not have it be a referendum on me, And frankly,
I knew it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I was crushing my work.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
My bosses were so angry that this executive had made
this decision.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It was not about me.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And still I could figure out how to learn from
it and pivot and figure out what was next in
a positive way, and try to figure out, like, because
I'm a creature habit and I don't like change because
of the whole control thing, how can I use this
shove as an organic way to move into something new
and something like the book that I've always wanted to
do and never had time for because I had a
(31:12):
million jobs at ESPN. How do I stop procrastinating on
something I've said I always want to do and just
like do it use the time to do it, and
so that's what I did.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Well, that's actually what I wanted to ask you next.
Do you think that you would have had the courage
to launch your podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain if
you hadn't been shoved out.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
It's certainly one of many nudges I'm getting from the
universe about taking bigger swings and being less afraid to fail.
So as far as the podcast goes, I pitched multiple
women's sports things to ESPN over the course of my
fifteen years. Sometimes they even got all the way to
looking at the budget. How many people would you need
(31:51):
on staff all that stuff. I brought sponsors to the
table that were ready to work on it, and it
just hasn't been a priority for them. And I don't
know if I would get fed up eventually and leave
to do it, or if I would have just been
happy bringing women's sports into as many spaces as I
was because it was scary and I'm still scared of
(32:12):
those leaps, So I don't know if I would have
done that. As for the book, when we did the
story for E sixty and the written piece, movie and book,
people came running when it went viral, and we thought
we'd do the movie first and then the book, and
then also the publisher that came was fine. The main
one that came was fine, but it wasn't a huge advance,
and we thought, let's do the movie first, and then
(32:32):
we'll put the stars of the movie on the book cover.
The book will be bigger, all that stuff. And then
we were pitching the movie during COVID and then during
the strike. So we've sort of been on hold with
the movie for the last four years or so, and
now we're going to re up the pitches with the book.
But I have to tell this quick story. So my
husband and I were in New York at this time.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I was just out.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
We had renegotiated an extra three months of my contract
because I was hosting an event. I was interviewing the
president of the company, like I had all these jobs
that the executive didn't even ask about before he tried
to kick me to the curb, and we were like, oh,
do you want me to stick around to host this
giant conference and interviewed the president of the company, and
or oh you do okay? Cool, Well, maybe if you'd
passed around at all, you would know, I'm sort of
(33:15):
booked and busy.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
For your company.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
But so I had this couple months that was sort
of like dead weight. I knew I was out, but
I was working. And my husband and I went to
the US Women's National Team Players Association ball in New York,
and we were walking around that day before the event,
and we walked by the New York Public Library and
everyone raves about how it's got these big, beautiful, fancy rooms.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
So we're like, oh, let's pop our heads in.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
And we looked into one room and people were diligently
working away in their computers, and I said, oh, I
really missed that, and he's like what, I'm like, I
miss like having a big project. We're just like right
in all day, sitting with your coffee, like you know.
And he's like, that's crazy. I went to the bathroom.
I checked my phone walking out of the bathroom, and
I see an email from my agent at CAA that says,
the woman who really wanted your book has left for
(33:58):
Simon and Schuster and came back around and wanted to
revisit the idea of writing it. And I said that
to my husband and he's like, there you go.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I'm like what.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
He's like, there's your project, And I was like, oh
my god, is that what manifesting is? You just like
go take a whiz and come back and the universe
gives you exactly what you said you wanted within like
five minutes.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Are you sure that's how it goes?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
And so, first of all, I did not have time
to write a book before. But also it was like, hey,
you are asking the universe for what's next. You are
asking what will feel valuable and meaningful to you. You're
asking what will be satisfying, and you have always wanted
to do this, and this is a project that's right
in your lap. And so I really couldn't even be
afraid of failing. I couldn't even be like, oh, I'm
(34:40):
not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
It was just I had to do it.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Well, let's talk a little bit about your podcast. But
first a quick break. Your podcast, Good Game with Sarah
Spain is the very first daily women's sports podcast. I mean,
that's huge. You've also you've won awards from iHeartRadio for
(35:05):
social impact for this show, and you've really taken listeners
along for the ride. As we've seen this surge of
engagement and investment in women's sports. What's one moment from
building good game that made you stop and say, yeah,
this is why we did it.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Well, that's tough. We interview so many people.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
This show has been so awesome to have the green
light and the support and the funding and the interest
to have a daily women's sports show that they've sent
me to Spain, the NWSL finals, south By Southwest, the
super Bowl, the Final four, all Star weekend, and putting
the money in interest and effort behind the details in
women's sports, because I really think that's all we've been missing,
(35:47):
is giving people enough information to care. Like we do
such a good job in men's sports of telling you
what everybody fricking ate for lunch, and then in women's sports,
it's like here's a highlight, all right, see you later.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So I knew we needed to give people the.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Stories and stakes and stats and stars that they could
know enough to want to come watch. And I think
the biggest through line across the former athletes that we've
had on the show, because we have everybody from media
to athletes, to executives to sponsors, but the athletes is
especially they're retired ones. They say I just wish there
was more of a connection between owners in front office
(36:18):
and the athletes, because the pyramid in men's sports very
clearly puts the men at the top. They are the product,
they are the value, they are the stars, they are
served and catered to, and they are the product that
makes everyone below in the pyramid money. And on the
women's side, it is still in some ways set up
where the players are somewhere in the middle and they
(36:39):
are not listened to and respected, and they aren't treated
the right way, and they aren't.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Rewarded in the right way.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
And it's not just monetarily, but in the setup of
their leagues, in the response to what they're looking for
and the way that they want to be coached and
served and led. And so I love hearing from former
players who are getting into ownership or front office roles
and helping connect those two sides.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
So we are.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Launching a new season of our show, The bright Side.
So the concept of new beginnings is on my mind.
What are three Sarah Spain truths or beliefs that have
gotten you through new beginnings?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
That's an interesting one.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Trust myself, I have always had a pretty innate surity
that I can trust myself, my gut, instinct, my beliefs,
my priorities, my principles. So I'm always thinking whatever new
thing I'm embarking on to consider and always center in
myself and just trusting that I'll do what's right. Try
(37:40):
to be kind to myself and to others, but especially
in our business. It's remarkable how someone I met twenty
five years ago is back around in some job or
some office or some whatever. And I'm grateful and thankful
that I'm always someone who's going to lead with kindness
and hype other people up and want everyone to succeed.
(38:01):
I've never been someone who wants to compete in life.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I'm the most competitive human alive when it comes to
like games or sports, but when it comes to supporting
other people, and I just want everyone to like crush
it and shine and be awesome. And I love when
other people hype me, So I hype other people. You know,
I'm very aware of what makes me feel good, and
I try to do that for other people. So be kind,
(38:26):
trust my gut, trust myself, and oh I think for
me balance. I will work twenty four hours a day
if I do not schedule fun. I am not a
good relaxer because I feel guilty sometimes when I'm relaxing
about how I could be being productive. So the best
(38:49):
thing for me is to be as ambitious about my
social life as I am about my work life. And
it comes very naturally. That's what I want to do anyway.
But if I have a dinner on the books or
concert or I throw a lot of costume parties with
my friends, like it gives me some outlet other than
work to put my energy, and I always make sure
there's that balance. Sometimes my friends like, why don't you
(39:11):
just cancel, go home and sleep, And I'm like, no,
if I cancel, I'll feel like I chose work over this,
and I don't want to make that choice.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I just want to do all of it.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Are we a little bit of a party animal, Sarah?
I'm a retired party animal myself.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
It's like not partying, it's like socializing, you know what
I mean. Like my husband and I have a lot
of friends across the country, and when we go somewhere,
we seek all of them out.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Like I just went to La for an Angel City game.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Told a bunch of my friends from when I lived there,
and friends from work that I was going to be there,
picked a place and I had like seventeen friends who
came to eat pizza and have beer with me on
a random Thursday, Like cause I keep those connections up
because it's really important to me to keep those connections up.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
That's so me.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
I so relate to this.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So it's like our version of partying is now just
like packing our day with good one on one or
group time.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
It's grown in sexy partying. For me, I can't agree
you will you will not catch me? I mean, I
don't have time to be hungover. No, so I got
to pack my battles. Yeah, totally, Okay. Finally, Sarah, what
is one area of your life where you're currently experiencing
the bright side or what's one area of your life
where you're looking for the bright side.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I would say my optimism is a gift almost all
the time. I'm incredibly grateful, naturally for everything.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
I didn't even drink till I was a junior in
college because I was like, why would I need to drink?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
We get sunsets and dolphins and music and like the
world is the best place life.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's right. And then like later in life.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
That was part of what I was talking about earlier
is starting to try to understand why the people are
the way they are and being like, oh, I get
why someone wants to escape or why someone doesn't think
every day is a gift because people have it hard,
and like, don't be judging about that. Don't pat yourself
on the back for having it so easy. Start to
try to understand other people. But right now, my optimism,
I think is is at odds with my desire to
(41:02):
be informed, and my control issues are getting in the
way because I feel helpless. Yeah, and my response to
every problem is let me fix that.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
But this is not something I can fix exactly. It's
hard to be the fix it person when you can't.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yet, And I don't want to bury my head because
I'm privileged.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
We'll just know that the work that you're doing is useful,
so don't forget that.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
There's the bright side. Is at least it feels like
I'm doing good stuff every day.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Well, Sarah Spain, thank you so
much for bringing your multitudes and your life FOMO to
the bright side. It certainly made it bright.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I really enjoyed it. Thanks. That's it. For this week.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Join the conversation with us on social media at Hello
Sunshine on ig and feel free to hit me up
at some own voice. Listen and follow The bright Side
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts, and as always, keep looking on the bright side, y'all.
The bright Side is a production of Hello Sunshine and
iHeart Podcasts and is executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and
(42:07):
me Simone Boyce. Production is by Acast Creative Studios. Our
producers are Taylor Williamson, Adrian Bain, and Darby Masters. Our
production assistant is Joya putnoy A. Cast Executive producers are
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon
are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine. Ali Perry is
(42:28):
the executive producer for iHeart Podcasts. Tim Pealazola is our showrunner.
Our theme song is by Anna Stump and Hamilton Lighthouser.
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're sitting
by the pool with our feed up, enjoying the first
day of our break.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
But we couldn't leave you with that a little something
to listen to.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
It's Monday, June thirtieth, and on today's show, we're bringing
you my recent appearance on an episode of the Hello
Sunshine podcast The bright Side, hosted by Simone Voice. I
had the opportunity to hop on with Simone back in
May and talk about why being pushed out of your
quote unquote dream job isn't the end, what it means
to be a woman who contains multitudes and a world
that wants you to shrink, chasing big dreams, creating lasting
(00:30):
change in women's sports, and the power of owning every
part of your story. I really love this conversation with Simone,
and I think you all will too.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
That episode of The bright Side is coming up right
after this.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Okay, y'all, it is time to get this episode started.
We told you we put a lot of thought into
how we wanted to kick off this new season, and
we've been really intentional about who would set the time
for the kinds of conversations that we want to have
together And I told you, I told you I wanted
to go deeper with you this season, and we're doing
that today with someone who embodies main character energy. And
(01:11):
I'm not talking about the overused trendy way, No, I'm
talking about somebody who takes big swings, who wipes out
and still finds the audacity to get back up. Someone
who has stared down rejection, fear of failure, and that
relentless inner critic and chose to trust yourself anyway. Someone
who refuses to shrink or let the world put her
(01:33):
in a box. Someone like Sarah Spain. You probably know
Sarah from ESPN, from her razor sharp commentary on sports
and culture, or maybe just from being one of the
smartest voices in the media game right now. She's been
a fixture at ESPN for over a decade, across platforms
like Around the Horn, Highly Questionable, and Spain and Fits.
(01:53):
She's also an Emmy winner and a Peabody winner. Okay,
a longtime advocate for women in sports and equity and media,
which is one of the reasons why she created Good
Game with Sarah Spain, the first daily podcast dedicated to
women's sports and most recently, she's the author of the
new book Runs in the Family, which follows the real
life story of Delan McCullough, a father of four and
(02:14):
accomplished football coach whose world gets turned upside down when
he learns the truth about his family history. Y'all, I
knew going into this conversation that Sarah and I were
going to have a few things in common. I personally
know what it's like to climb through the ranks of
the media industry only to be met with constant rejection,
and also confronting the reality that there are going to
be suits and gatekeepers at every turn who want to
(02:36):
keep you in a box and make you stay in
your lane. But what I didn't expect was how candid
Sarah was about her setbacks and low points, and that
honesty was so liberating. It was so refreshing to hear,
and it really inspired me not to fear those moments,
but to embrace the freedom that comes on the other side.
(02:57):
All Right, it's time to hype up the ultimate hype woman.
Here's my conversation with Sarah Spain. Sarah Spain, Welcome to
the bright Side.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Congratulations on your book Runs in the family. You got
the most epic co sign from our very own Reese
Witherspoon on your story that this book is based on.
And here's what Rees said. Okay, she said, quote had
me in tears. It made me believe in fate, the
power of family and divine intervention. And this is the
best part. You know, this is the best part, she said.
(03:30):
It's so well written. I mean, you can't ask for
more than that.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
She wrote about it on every platform.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
She posted on Instagram, Twitter, like LinkedIn, wherever, Facebook, every
single place she posted something so nice when it came out,
and it was like, honestly, like my cheeks hurt from smiling.
I was like, oh my god, did Reason and I
just become best friends. I'm still working on that part,
but yeah, and so it was such a nice boost
and like really awesome commentary from folks like that when
(03:57):
we first did the story for ESPN, where I think
a good little boost to get a book along the way.
And so now I'm really excited for everyone to read
the bigger, more full story.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Hey, she is the Queen of books, so I know
kind of endorsement does not hurt. What is your superpower
as a storyteller, And how do you think it's on
display in this book.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I would say it's two. I would say one is empathy.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
I have a real desire to understand why people are
the way that they are. And I think as I've
gotten older, especially, I've become particularly interested in how people's
lives have been different from mine, the pathologies that people
get from the family systems in which they grow up,
or the interactions that they have with loved ones, friends, lovers, whoever.
(04:45):
I think it's a better way to go through life
to tell yourself a story about how people got to
be who they are instead of just being angry or judgmental.
And so, as I get older and I study more
about psychology, sociology, all the different things around just kind
of why people are who they are, it makes me
try to better understand people's choices instead of judging them.
(05:07):
And so, particularly in a book like this that has
these really complicated ideas of people who are dating, abuse
of men, or men with drug problems, people who are
struggling to pay the bills or maybe aren't making healthy choices,
you can write a book like that and be up
high on a hill and say, well, I never struggled
with that, so that was a bad choice instead of
trying to understand how they got to where they are.
(05:27):
So I think the empathy was huge for this one.
And then the other one is synthesizing ideas. I use
this across all my jobs, podcasting, radio, writing, TV. Essentially,
how do I get this thing that I want to
say or this thing someone else said and put it
into the right words to best express it.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
And for writing, I think, gosh, I should knock on wood.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
But I just never got writer's block during the book.
And I think part of that is like my brain
just naturally wants to take ideas and find a way
to make them almost fit a puzzle and get across
the themes or the stories nottes that I wanted to
make sure we're in there.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So I think those two superpowers were super helpful.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, I'll say, and you are the envy of writers
everywhere whoever probably ringing their hands experiencing writer's block right now.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
It probably jinks myself.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Speaking of synthesizing, would you just synthesize the story of
Runs in the Family for us?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
So long story short.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Dylan McCullough is currently the Running Backs coach for the
Las Vegas Raiders. He grew up in Youngstown, Ohio, right
after the industrial collapse, so really tough time. There are
a lot of people without jobs. Oftentimes he was without
electricity or hot water. His family really struggled because his
adoptive dad left when he was two, so now he's
sort of doubly rejected by father. Figures growing up with
a single mom who's trying to make it work for
(06:44):
him and his brother Damon. He gets into football, ends
up getting recruited by a handful of people, including a
Youngstown fellow named Sherman Smith who had made it good
at the NFL level, who recruits him to go to
Miami of Ohio, breaks a bunch of records, tries to
go to the NFL, gets injured, eventually gets into teaching
and then coaching, and along the way starts a family.
Has four sons. Doesn't know anything about his medical history,
(07:05):
doesn't anything of his birth family, but as he gets
older with his kids, he decides he's interested, and eventually
the laws change. In Pennsylvania, where he was born, he
can find his birth certificate, finds his mom within like
a day on Facebook. She never got married, never had kids,
she's been looking for him, she's so excited to find him.
And now forty five years later, he asks, do you
(07:25):
know who my dad is? It's not on my birth certificate,
and she tells him and it's someone that's been in.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
His life for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
And the dad never knew either because he was never
told about the baby. So it's just a really incredible storied,
such a feel good story. But also I really wanted
to make sure it wasn't just about him. It was
a story anybody could find themselves in to try to
understand what's passed down via DNA versus, what's passed down
via family systems, generational trauma, language and messaging, and how
(07:54):
we get to decide what do we want to keep
with our family, even backwards to our parents. Is that
relationship serving us? Is that choice serving us? Or can
we decide to change? And how those are interwoven with
the things that were genetically handed that we can't choose.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Well, you clearly lead with empathy and curiosity, and I
think those are sister traits. They go hand in hand,
especially in the field of journalism, and in that field
you've worked across radio, television, podcasts, writing, what skill came first,
or which one feels most like you at your.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Core talking my poor parents, I just yeappen yeah, but professional? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Or since birth? Actually, it took me a little while
to start talking, and then once they did, they were like,
holy cow.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I remember literally, like nine or ten years old, asking
my parents if you can get paid to talk for
a living, and they were like, no, that's not a job.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And I'm like, found one genius.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I've been a professional yapper for many years now, and
I wish I had had the foresight to just speak
it into existence at such a young age. Apparently I
manifested it. Look at us now, I know we made
it work.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
But the curiosity aspect too, you know, I've always wanted
to do everything, try everything, do everything. I was in
band Chorus three, sports Talent show, went to college. I
was a heptathlete, which is literally the track event where
you don't pick one thing, you do all seven of them.
And then in ESPN and in my career podcast, national radio, writing, producing, television,
(09:26):
like all the things, and so I think the curiosity
to know how to do something and to try it,
and then to understand why people are the way they
are and get to know them. Those are a part
of wanting to be like a journalist and explore stories.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
What is it about challenging yourself in all these different
arenas that thrills you? Like why do you think you
do it? And why do you think you go after
everything so hard?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
I have a lot of life fomo. But it's not envy,
if that makes a sense. Like I saw an interview
with someone the other day and it totally clicked for me,
and they said, when I see someone having success at
something I think I would.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Be great at, I have envy.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
There are plenty of times when I see people doing
great things and I'm just happy for them. But if
I'm happy for someone and there's a little bit of
envy and means it might be meant for me. And
I think that's how I felt growing up watching a
lot of stuff like oh I think I could do that,
and I think I could do it, well, let me
try it. But yeah, I mean I think also, I'm
pretty fearless. It's interesting. I feel fearless when I'm in control,
(10:29):
and the older I get, the more I recognize that
I do have issues with control. The first time I
do anything I'm nervous because I'm like, wait, okay, where
do I sit? What will the chair look like? Which
TV am I looking at? What's this question going to be?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Like? How is this?
Speaker 1 (10:41):
And then after one time that's it. Not nervous again,
totally fearless, practically naive. Won't even think about the fact
that tons of people are watching it's something terrible could
go wrong. It just doesn't phaze me. So I think
it's a naive fearlessness with like just a little twinge
of needing to, you know, settle in.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
That was a per self diagnosis that you can tell.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Reading a lot of books for this book about like therapy, trauma.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And six We've got to take a short break, but
more from Sarah after the break and we're back with
Sarah Spain. So, considering that you have this zest for
life and this life fomo, I want to hear what
(11:30):
success looked like to you when you were just starting out.
So can you take me back to that overachiever, younger
version of yourself who just graduated from Cornell where you
were co captain of the track and field team and
a HATA athlete. What was baby Sarah chasing at that
moment in time.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Well, right after Cornell, I was still chasing my first dream,
which was most of my life and still you know,
in the background even though it's not realistic at this point,
which was to be on Saturday Night Live. My dream
was to be an actress and comedian and performer. But
because I was doing all the sports and all the things,
it was always conflicting with like the school play and
other things like that. So I took some acting classes
(12:08):
at Cornell, I moved home to save up a little money,
and then I moved to La worked in a restaurant.
Like every stereotype says, did auditions, did acting classes, did
the Second City improv Conservatory. And it wasn't until I
took a TV hosting boot camp and the teacher had
us focus on something that we are an expert on
to practice and I was like, my expertise is like literature.
(12:30):
I was an English major, so that's not going to
be on a show. So I did a fake Chicago
Bears show. I just always been a sports fan and
an athlete. And the teacher said, oh, you want to
work in sports. It's like, no, there's no women in sports.
And I want to be funny and the only women
are like supermodels on the sidelines, like Aaron Andrews.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
And she said, well, it just seems natural you could
try it.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So I took a class in TV sports reporting at
Yucilie and I was like, Oh, this is so many things.
The writing, the extemporaneous thinking, the interview skills come out
of improv my knowledge base.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Having been a three sport athlete my whole life.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I always think of that when I consider the fact
that literally when they say you can see, if you
can see it, you can be it.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I never saw it.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
There were no women doing sports in Chicago growing up,
and it was just not really considered an option. I
think it's a good quality that I have that I
don't have grudges and I don't get stuck in any place.
But that also means when I look back, I'm sure
I have a much rosier view of like what it
(13:31):
was like back then. I think I really thought I
had something and I was so terrified no one else
thought that too.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But I was really insecure about what I look like.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
I've never been as skinny as most of the people
on TV, despite being a heptathlete. Like my body type
is just not twig, and so I was so worried
watching who was making it and thinking, oh, they really
just care about what women look like. So my first
job was this fantasy football show that was just like
those online pop ups that used to pop up when
you would go to a sports site back in the
(14:01):
wild wild West of like very misogynist sports blogs, and
it was like, Hi, I'm your fantasy sports girl Sarah
with this week's fantasy football tips, and I had to
wear like cleavage tops, and like that was a big break.
I was in like Jim Rome's two million dollar studio
with ESPN producers, and that was the only way I
could get in, was like doing the stereotypical BS sexy stuff.
(14:25):
Meanwhile I was trying to do. I was filming my
own fake sketches for my hosting reel that were all
like comedic and silly and ridiculous, and I think that
was I think if you asked young me, I would
never dream of a single thing I've accomplished. And that's
what I tell myself every time I get an opportunity
and I'm scared to take it, is what I have said.
(14:47):
I'm gonna win it, Emmy or a Peabody, or get
to be on TV or do around the Horn, or
have my own show, or literally anything I've accomplished.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
I wish I could say I was that kind of dreamer.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
I always believed I had something, but I don't think
I ever was brave enough.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I'm very afraid failure.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So if I never say the thing that I want
and put it out there, then I never have anyone
who could say, you said you wanted this and you
didn't get it, you failed.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
That's so real.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Okay, Wait, I have to rewind because there's so much
there that I want to unpact, so much that you
said I want therapy. So this show where you felt
like you were hyper sexualized when you were talking about sports.
What year was that, Uh, probably two thousand and five
because I remember also kind of becoming an on camera
(15:32):
personality around that time, and it was a different time
then that was really accepted, and that was a way
that you could get a footthold in the industry was
if you did kind of like a sexier spin on content.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
All the women in my business from that time remember that. Yeah,
we always had to be like, I'm a guys girl.
Most of my best friends are like, the only way
to be accepted in sports was essential to be like,
don't worry, I'm not actually a woman. I'm just a
hot chick who's a dude inside. And like, I talk
about that a lot when it comes to the evolution
(16:06):
of women's sports. Yeah, because we don't have to apologize
for being different. It's part of the authenticity that people enjoy.
And when we stopped having to pretend like we were
just like the guys, but you know, women, we got
to be funnier and more comfortable and villains and heroes
(16:26):
and masculine and feminine and queer and straight and all
the multi dimensional things that we let male sports athletes
and media be. And it was so restrictive and limiting
that it wasn't enjoyable. And then we open up the
door to let it be free, and it's like, oh,
this works.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
And you hinted at this. But there are even expectations
around what a funny woman looks like.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, or what whether women should be funny, whether women
are funny exactly, famous articles from Christopher Hitchins why women
aren't funny, And there's a lot of studies of if
a woman is attractive. We don't want you to make
yourself less attractive in order to be funny. Your number
one value is your looks, and you're trading on that
when you become funny. And I have found that restrictive
(17:10):
at every point in my career. So when I first
went back to Chicago, I was working for a startup
website and I brought a ton of my improv stuff
to it, and I was just having fun with player
personalities and bringing some creativity to it. And it was
very hard to make sure that like, I'm being funny,
but never in any way that could be misconstrued as sexual,
because people are already pushing all their opinions and their
(17:31):
feelings of sexuality onto you at every turn, and so
at every turn you're constantly like kind of trying to
look ahead and be like, oh, what's someone going to
say about this, or how are they going to perceive this?
And I was blindsided a million times by something I
did or said that somehow somebody made sexual when that
wasn't my intention, and it really prevents you from being
creative in so many ways.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I was also blindsided by this perception that you can't
be smart and funny at the same time, like I
experienced this in my career as a news journalist. It's
like people are just incapable of holding space for women
to be more than one thing. And this is something
that I'm saying, the drum about just embracing our multitudes.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Couldn't be more true. I used to talk about this
all the time. It was the idea of, like, we
have to put you in one box. Either you're the
hot girl, or you're the funny girl, or you're the
smart girl. And I found that early in my career too,
because I was doing like radio updates that were sort
of light and fun. And then I started working for
espnW and I was covering everything from silly stuff to
very serious stories about domestic violence and sexual assault. And
(18:35):
I knew how to be in different places as different
versions of myself and to bring the right approach and attitude.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
But not everyone else did.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And I think for women especially, there is this feeling
of we cannot view you as anything other than what
we decided you are. And your point about especially attractive women,
I think of someone like George Clooney's wife, or Michelle Obama,
or like people who are so unbelievably impressive and instead
it's like, but she looks great in that dress or
(19:04):
nice arms.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yeah, it's never ending, So I think you just have
to tune it out and do you.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, like the Nike ad says you can't win, so
just win, So just win.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Well, I want to get into the ESPN chapter of
your career, and it starts in this unexpected way because
I hear that you initially auditioned for ESPN and didn't
get the job right away. I love stories like this.
Can you tell me what happened next?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
So I was living in la at the time, flew
out for the audition, didn't get the job, and I
was wanting to take the next step in my sports career.
Got a job at Fox Sports Net this is precursor
to FS one, and was working behind the scenes, but
started doing those little fantasy show started writing for blogs
for free just to get some content up, and started
taking auditions and meetings, and I flew back to Chicago.
(19:51):
I took two weeks off to see if do I
want to try to work in Chicago where I know
the team's best because that's where I grew up. And
a friend of mine had a connection at a startup
website I ended up moving back to Chicago to work
for that place, Mouthpiece Sports, and it was from there
that I eventually got started at local ESPN radio, added
on writing for espnW, working for espnW and then national
(20:12):
radio around the Horn Sports Center. You say to all
the other stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, so just like hustling your way in there, getting
a foot in the door.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So you were there for about fifteen years, right, Yeah,
I think I'm close to fifteen ish. Yeah, and you're
still you're still working with ESPN, just in a reduced capacity.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yep, working with the espnW, so just focused on the
women's sports stuff, hosting a lot of their conferences and stuff.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
So I'm thinking back to when you gain a foothold
inside an esteemed institution like that, there are moments that
remind you that all of your hard work was worth it.
And I can remember jumping from local news to national
news and finally having a fancy coffee machine at the
office and being like, oh, I've really made it. Like
(20:58):
they're paying for my coffee now. This is this is
the best. What are the pinchbe moments that you still
think about from your time there.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Oh, there's a couple. So one was I just wanted
to write on my tax forms sports reporter as my
job instead of you know, like a bunch of other
things or like waitress because that's where most of the
money was coming from. Like, yeah, I was really excited
when I could just put journalists as my occupation. Another
(21:25):
one was my very first job, which now that I
think about it's really not a huge deal, but at
the time it felt like such a big deal was
the update anchor at ESPN one thousand, which is ESPN Radio,
and so every fifteen to thirty minutes, I would hop
on and be like, hello and welcome to your Sports
Center Update.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I'm Sarah Spain.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Tonight the Chicago Cubs take on the Cincinnati Reds at
seven pm Easter But the thing that made me like
go crazy was the Sports Center music would play before
I started, so it'd go.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Da da da da da.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, this is Sarah Spain with your sports and I
was like, oh, my god, it's basically like I'm on
Sports Center, which it wasn't, but it felt like it.
And to be associated with the brand of ESPN in
any way, I was like, oh, I'm doing it. And
then you know, I always called Jamel Hill my fairy
career godmother. And there were a couple great mentors that
I've had along the way, but she in particular. I
(22:13):
was at an espnW summit, which is these three day conferences.
I was a total nobody. I was not involved in
the programming hardly at all. But I had one thing
that I did on stage and Jamel said, you know,
you're really great on stage.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
You should be doing TV. Why aren't you doing TV?
Speaker 1 (22:29):
And I said, well, back at home in Chicago, I
did like a local show, but I haven't done much
for ESPN. I've done one or two sports center hits
and that's it for the Blackhawks.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And I think they're just not ready. They haven't seen
enough tape.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
And she said, well, next time i'm off with my show,
I'm going to suggest that you host. And I was like, okay, sure,
And then about a month or two later they gave
me the call. I flew out to Bristol. I hosted
a live hour show with Michael Smith. Used to be
called Numbers never Lye and then became His and Hers.
And within that one show, Keith Oberman show calls me
(22:59):
outid the lines calls me. I just had to prove myself,
and so that pinched me moment of like somebody saw
me and thought I could do this and then put
me on the air, and I did.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I did a whole live national TV show.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
I was like, I can do this, And so I
always think about Jamel and try to think about how
I can be that person for other people.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
That is really really cool. It's so great to hear that,
and clearly Jamel is a girl's girl like that. That's
very meaningful when another woman stands in the gap for
you like that. Yeah, were there moments in during those
years where you were getting closer and getting closer where
you ever questioned what you were doing and felt like
giving up.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Not in the sports world.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I did feel that way about comedy and acting, particularly
because I did not really enjoy the scene. And you
hear about the casting couch, and it's very true, and
unfortunately the sports world is not a fix for that.
I was the victim of harassment on multiple occasions in
the sports world too, But it felt like there was
a more objective way to succeed, like if you know
(24:00):
your stuff, if you get really good at it, you
can succeed in spite of those people. And so I
think with the acting in comedy, I never felt like
I really was cooking with gas. And then when I
started in the sports world, it felt so natural and
it felt like, Oh, you're good at this, this is
where you should be. And so I never really lost
(24:21):
hope or had enough of a drought in that to
think like, oh, this isn't going to work.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Okay, So you're at ESPN for a while and then
eventually it sounds like something kind of shifted within you,
and I'm curious how you decided to give yourself permission
to distance yourself from that original vision of your dream
job and dream a bit differently.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, it was. It was a little bit of choice
and a lot of a shove.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Actually.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
So I had been doing national radio and some capacity
for thirteen years, from updates to hosting, and for seven
straight years I was doing nighttime national radio, and I
took a ton of pride in being a woman who
was on the slate which didn't exist other than me
in representing for women in that way.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But it was feeling less satisfying.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It was feeling super ephemeral to get on the air
every night for two to three hours and have whatever
I said float away and usually be the biggest hits
of the day. We certainly, throughout the various iterations of
my shows, tried to talk about other things, meaningful things,
women's sports, social issues like I really tried to make
the show a lot more than just playing the hits.
But I understood that there were limitations for that medium
(25:35):
in that space, and I had other projects that when
I did them and I put my time and effort
into them, I saw a lot of success with whether
that was the E sixty and the feature reporting I
did for Runs in the Family the First Time, or
a PSA I did called More Than Mean that ended
up winning a bunch of awards, including a Peabody, And
it felt like as long as I had radio every
single night, it was really going to prevent me from
(25:57):
spending time on things and making them great.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Part of radio that's great is it is immediate.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
You get your feedback right away, there's a community, you
have time to talk. But it's an imperfect science because
it's off the top of your head. When you really
take your time with a feature, you can edit and
turn it into the piece that you want. And I
wanted a little bit more of that, so I had
been talking to the radio side about trying to get
out of radio and figure out to do more of
the other stuff, and a particular executive there decided he
(26:26):
was just going to have me be gone altogether.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
And so after thirteen years, with two weeks notice.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
After they hadn't responded to a lot of calls from
my agent, he told me they were just not going
to resign me. And after our meeting, he said he
had spoken to them and there wasn't a lot of
interest in keeping me because he said, oh, without the radio,
you don't have much.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I said, I have E.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Sixties SportsCenter, my podcast, writing espnW, all these shows that
asked me to do more, and I haven't had time
to do more. I was filling it at ESPN Daily
and some other stuff. And he said, oh yeah, I
called around. There wasn't a lot of interest, I said,
So I called my bosses.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
How is your call with him? They said, what call?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I said, That's what I thought, So just you know,
I'm not being resigned, and they were furious, and they
worked to find a position for me at the company
outside of his department, But because he oversaw so much
of what I worked on, it really limited.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
What I could do.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
So it was a shove that was completely unexpected, and
I think I was very grateful that I had been
hosting a podcast for years, talking to people at times
about their worst times or their unexpected moments much more
severe than me being pushed out of a job that
I still really liked. It was people who suffered catastrophic injuries,
(27:38):
people who lost loved ones, people who are outright fired
and had no idea what to do next. And I
remember in those moments, while interviewing them, I would ask myself,
how would you react to this? And my very honest
answer to myself was terribly. You have been through nothing.
Your life has been privileged. You have been so lucky
in every way, and a lot of that is good
(28:01):
choices you've made and working hard and being kind, but
a lot of it is just luck and the privilege
of mental health from your family and a great upbringing.
And so time to start thinking about how you will react,
because it's not going to be this perfect forever. Something
will happen. And it wasn't cynical, and I wasn't waiting
for the other shoe to drop. It just afforded me
the opportunity to think about if something were to change
(28:22):
in this idyllic life I had made, what would I
do about it? And so when that happened, I gave
myself a couple of days to be angry and sad
and feel sorry for myself and scared about what was
coming next, because ESPN is the top of the mountain.
And then not only did I fight to make sure
I got to go out a little bit more on
my own, on my own terms by working for another
(28:43):
year in a handful of capacities. And now the last
couple of year or two has been just espnW, where
I'm still working with people I love working with about
something I care about. But I also took that time
to look at what I wanted and why I was
moving away from radio, what was going to be satisfying.
I think I had always wanted to do a lot
of intersection of sports and social issues because it felt
a little absurd to make a lot of money and
(29:04):
have a job where I'm just talking about people playing games.
It made me feel guilty almost that people who do good,
meaningful work are working harder, or making less money or
living a less privileged life than someone who's just like
going on TV and being like hell of a dunk.
So I always tried to find ways to make it
feel more meaningful. And when this happened, I sat down
and thought, what do I actually want to spend my
(29:25):
time on?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And I knew it was women's sports.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
How can I use the career I built and the
influence I have on something that feels metior and more
meaningful and more genuine to something I've cared about my
whole career and tried to intersect with my whole career.
And so, yeah, I got a shove. I'm doing awesome
things ever since that shove. I would never lie and
say that I wouldn't have been perfectly happy if they'd
(29:48):
let me stay on that path. I think I would have,
But things are different at ESPN now too, and looking
at it from a farm, I'm not sure how happy
i'd be if I was there full time.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I so respect the transparency with which she told that story,
because that's that is not easy to be. It is
not a small thing to be pushed out of a
dream job, and I'm sure it was extremely painful. So
I just really appreciate your vulnerability around sharing that story.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
You've got to be honest It's not that I was
dishonest when it first happened. I just was more vague
because I was really embarrassed. Like I talked about before,
I'm like terrified of failure. It felt like a failure.
I'd never had that before. Yeah, And I was so glad.
I had talked to so many successful people who had
had failures or who had been let go or who
(30:37):
had had things that go their way, so I could
not have it be a referendum on me, And frankly,
I knew it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I was crushing my work.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
My bosses were so angry that this executive had made
this decision.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It was not about me.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And still I could figure out how to learn from
it and pivot and figure out what was next in
a positive way, and try to figure out, like, because
I'm a creature habit and I don't like change because
of the whole control thing, how can I use this
shove as an organic way to move into something new
and something like the book that I've always wanted to
do and never had time for because I had a
(31:12):
million jobs at ESPN. How do I stop procrastinating on
something I've said I always want to do and just
like do it use the time to do it, and
so that's what I did.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Well, that's actually what I wanted to ask you next.
Do you think that you would have had the courage
to launch your podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain if
you hadn't been shoved out.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
It's certainly one of many nudges I'm getting from the
universe about taking bigger swings and being less afraid to fail.
So as far as the podcast goes, I pitched multiple
women's sports things to ESPN over the course of my
fifteen years. Sometimes they even got all the way to
looking at the budget. How many people would you need
(31:51):
on staff all that stuff. I brought sponsors to the
table that were ready to work on it, and it
just hasn't been a priority for them. And I don't
know if I would get fed up eventually and leave
to do it, or if I would have just been
happy bringing women's sports into as many spaces as I
was because it was scary and I'm still scared of
(32:12):
those leaps, So I don't know if I would have
done that. As for the book, when we did the
story for E sixty and the written piece, movie and book,
people came running when it went viral, and we thought
we'd do the movie first and then the book, and
then also the publisher that came was fine. The main
one that came was fine, but it wasn't a huge advance,
and we thought, let's do the movie first, and then
(32:32):
we'll put the stars of the movie on the book cover.
The book will be bigger, all that stuff. And then
we were pitching the movie during COVID and then during
the strike. So we've sort of been on hold with
the movie for the last four years or so, and
now we're going to re up the pitches with the book.
But I have to tell this quick story. So my
husband and I were in New York at this time.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I was just out.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
We had renegotiated an extra three months of my contract
because I was hosting an event. I was interviewing the
president of the company, like I had all these jobs
that the executive didn't even ask about before he tried
to kick me to the curb, and we were like, oh,
do you want me to stick around to host this
giant conference and interviewed the president of the company, and
or oh you do okay? Cool, Well, maybe if you'd
passed around at all, you would know, I'm sort of
(33:15):
booked and busy.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
For your company.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
But so I had this couple months that was sort
of like dead weight. I knew I was out, but
I was working. And my husband and I went to
the US Women's National Team Players Association ball in New York,
and we were walking around that day before the event,
and we walked by the New York Public Library and
everyone raves about how it's got these big, beautiful, fancy rooms.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
So we're like, oh, let's pop our heads in.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
And we looked into one room and people were diligently
working away in their computers, and I said, oh, I
really missed that, and he's like what, I'm like, I
miss like having a big project. We're just like right
in all day, sitting with your coffee, like you know.
And he's like, that's crazy. I went to the bathroom.
I checked my phone walking out of the bathroom, and
I see an email from my agent at CAA that says,
the woman who really wanted your book has left for
(33:58):
Simon and Schuster and came back around and wanted to
revisit the idea of writing it. And I said that
to my husband and he's like, there you go.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
I'm like what.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
He's like, there's your project, And I was like, oh
my god, is that what manifesting is? You just like
go take a whiz and come back and the universe
gives you exactly what you said you wanted within like
five minutes.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Are you sure that's how it goes?
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
And so, first of all, I did not have time
to write a book before. But also it was like, hey,
you are asking the universe for what's next. You are
asking what will feel valuable and meaningful to you. You're
asking what will be satisfying, and you have always wanted
to do this, and this is a project that's right
in your lap. And so I really couldn't even be
afraid of failing. I couldn't even be like, oh, I'm
(34:40):
not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
It was just I had to do it.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Well, let's talk a little bit about your podcast. But
first a quick break. Your podcast, Good Game with Sarah
Spain is the very first daily women's sports podcast. I mean,
that's huge. You've also you've won awards from iHeartRadio for
(35:05):
social impact for this show, and you've really taken listeners
along for the ride. As we've seen this surge of
engagement and investment in women's sports. What's one moment from
building good game that made you stop and say, yeah,
this is why we did it.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Well, that's tough. We interview so many people.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
This show has been so awesome to have the green
light and the support and the funding and the interest
to have a daily women's sports show that they've sent
me to Spain, the NWSL finals, south By Southwest, the
super Bowl, the Final four, all Star weekend, and putting
the money in interest and effort behind the details in
women's sports, because I really think that's all we've been missing,
(35:47):
is giving people enough information to care. Like we do
such a good job in men's sports of telling you
what everybody fricking ate for lunch, and then in women's sports,
it's like here's a highlight, all right, see you later.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So I knew we needed to give people the.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Stories and stakes and stats and stars that they could
know enough to want to come watch. And I think
the biggest through line across the former athletes that we've
had on the show, because we have everybody from media
to athletes, to executives to sponsors, but the athletes is
especially they're retired ones. They say I just wish there
was more of a connection between owners in front office
(36:18):
and the athletes, because the pyramid in men's sports very
clearly puts the men at the top. They are the product,
they are the value, they are the stars, they are
served and catered to, and they are the product that
makes everyone below in the pyramid money. And on the
women's side, it is still in some ways set up
where the players are somewhere in the middle and they
(36:39):
are not listened to and respected, and they aren't treated
the right way, and they aren't.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Rewarded in the right way.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
And it's not just monetarily, but in the setup of
their leagues, in the response to what they're looking for
and the way that they want to be coached and
served and led. And so I love hearing from former
players who are getting into ownership or front office roles
and helping connect those two sides.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
So we are.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Launching a new season of our show, The bright Side.
So the concept of new beginnings is on my mind.
What are three Sarah Spain truths or beliefs that have
gotten you through new beginnings?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
That's an interesting one.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Trust myself, I have always had a pretty innate surity
that I can trust myself, my gut, instinct, my beliefs,
my priorities, my principles. So I'm always thinking whatever new
thing I'm embarking on to consider and always center in
myself and just trusting that I'll do what's right. Try
(37:40):
to be kind to myself and to others, but especially
in our business. It's remarkable how someone I met twenty
five years ago is back around in some job or
some office or some whatever. And I'm grateful and thankful
that I'm always someone who's going to lead with kindness
and hype other people up and want everyone to succeed.
(38:01):
I've never been someone who wants to compete in life.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I'm the most competitive human alive when it comes to
like games or sports, but when it comes to supporting
other people, and I just want everyone to like crush
it and shine and be awesome. And I love when
other people hype me, So I hype other people. You know,
I'm very aware of what makes me feel good, and
I try to do that for other people. So be kind,
(38:26):
trust my gut, trust myself, and oh I think for
me balance. I will work twenty four hours a day
if I do not schedule fun. I am not a
good relaxer because I feel guilty sometimes when I'm relaxing
about how I could be being productive. So the best
(38:49):
thing for me is to be as ambitious about my
social life as I am about my work life. And
it comes very naturally. That's what I want to do anyway.
But if I have a dinner on the books or
concert or I throw a lot of costume parties with
my friends, like it gives me some outlet other than
work to put my energy, and I always make sure
there's that balance. Sometimes my friends like, why don't you
(39:11):
just cancel, go home and sleep, And I'm like, no,
if I cancel, I'll feel like I chose work over this,
and I don't want to make that choice.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
I just want to do all of it.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Are we a little bit of a party animal, Sarah?
I'm a retired party animal myself.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
It's like not partying, it's like socializing, you know what
I mean. Like my husband and I have a lot
of friends across the country, and when we go somewhere,
we seek all of them out.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Like I just went to La for an Angel City game.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Told a bunch of my friends from when I lived there,
and friends from work that I was going to be there,
picked a place and I had like seventeen friends who
came to eat pizza and have beer with me on
a random Thursday, Like cause I keep those connections up
because it's really important to me to keep those connections up.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
That's so me.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
I so relate to this.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So it's like our version of partying is now just
like packing our day with good one on one or
group time.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
It's grown in sexy partying. For me, I can't agree
you will you will not catch me? I mean, I
don't have time to be hungover. No, so I got
to pack my battles. Yeah, totally, Okay. Finally, Sarah, what
is one area of your life where you're currently experiencing
the bright side or what's one area of your life
where you're looking for the bright side.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I would say my optimism is a gift almost all
the time. I'm incredibly grateful, naturally for everything.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
I didn't even drink till I was a junior in
college because I was like, why would I need to drink?
Speaker 1 (40:34):
We get sunsets and dolphins and music and like the
world is the best place life.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
That's right. And then like later in life.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
That was part of what I was talking about earlier
is starting to try to understand why the people are
the way they are and being like, oh, I get
why someone wants to escape or why someone doesn't think
every day is a gift because people have it hard,
and like, don't be judging about that. Don't pat yourself
on the back for having it so easy. Start to
try to understand other people. But right now, my optimism,
I think is is at odds with my desire to
(41:02):
be informed, and my control issues are getting in the
way because I feel helpless. Yeah, and my response to
every problem is let me fix that.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
But this is not something I can fix exactly. It's
hard to be the fix it person when you can't.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yet, And I don't want to bury my head because
I'm privileged.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
We'll just know that the work that you're doing is useful,
so don't forget that.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
There's the bright side. Is at least it feels like
I'm doing good stuff every day.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Well, Sarah Spain, thank you so
much for bringing your multitudes and your life FOMO to
the bright side. It certainly made it bright.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I really enjoyed it. Thanks. That's it. For this week.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Join the conversation with us on social media at Hello
Sunshine on ig and feel free to hit me up
at some own voice. Listen and follow The bright Side
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts, and as always, keep looking on the bright side, y'all.
The bright Side is a production of Hello Sunshine and
iHeart Podcasts and is executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and
(42:07):
me Simone Boyce. Production is by Acast Creative Studios. Our
producers are Taylor Williamson, Adrian Bain, and Darby Masters. Our
production assistant is Joya putnoy A. Cast Executive producers are
Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon
are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine. Ali Perry is
(42:28):
the executive producer for iHeart Podcasts. Tim Pealazola is our showrunner.
Our theme song is by Anna Stump and Hamilton Lighthouser.
Host
Sarah Spain
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