October 28, 2025 • 36 mins
Thayer Lavielle, managing director of The Collective, the women’s division of Wasserman, joins Sarah to unpack how brands and consumers drive the women’s sports economy. They dig into research revealing how different demographics watch, engage with, and spend on women's sports, and how The Collective plans to shape the next era of investment. Plus, one big-name athlete sends a message to the candy corn haters out there.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're back
in beautiful Ohai, California for the espnW Summit, rebin elbows
with legendary athletes, sipin' wine with big wig execs, and
strategizing the best way to trap Alonamar in a room
for twenty minutes to chat with us before she's swept
away for another big event or red carpet. Wish us luck.
(00:22):
It's Tuesday, October twentieth, and on today's show, we'll be
skipping the need to know and getting straight to my
conversation with Thayer Lavil, managing director at the Collective, the
Women's Division of the Wasserman Talent Agency. We discuss how
research has helped accelerate investment in women's sports, the effect
of more and more brands getting into the space, and
the value of understanding the behavior and purchase power of
(00:42):
fans of women's sport. That conversation's coming up right after this.
Joining us now, she's the managing director at the Collective,
the Women's Division of the Wasserman Talent Agency. She's negotiated
over two hundred and fifty million dollars worth of talent, brand,
property and venue deals. In sports and entertainment, and at
(01:02):
the Collective, she's changing the way brands, investors, agents, athletes,
and fans see and work in the women's sports space.
We've put our heads together for the Gatorade Women's Advisory Board.
We've soaked up the sun together in Ohi, California. We've
bonded at Barclays watching the New York Liberty, and we
have a kernel of an idea for a children's book
that we can't say a single thing more about until
it races up the bestseller charts, which would require us
to actually write it and produce it. It's there, l'aveal hi.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
There, hi, Sarah, nice to be here, Thanks for having me,
Thanks for coming on. We do need to get on
that book idea.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
For sure, someone else is going to get to it
if we don't. And with all of our free time,
I don't know what we're just sitting around doing.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Would that's right? Exactly? Just trying to save the world,
one team at a time.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
That's right. So tell our listeners about the Collective, When
was it formed, what does it do?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah? So the Collective is essentially part of Wasserman's broader
group that's really focused on just advancing the power of women,
and we do that through kind of the core businesses
that we have, which one side is talent representation across sport, music,
and entertainment, and the other side is really through our
consultative and sales businesses, and our group is really just
(02:09):
looking to provide the business rational to invest in women,
and so we do that largely through advocacy, work of
research and insights. How do we just basically go convince
people to invest in women, because by the way, unfortunately
we need proof for that repeatedly, and so we do it.
We spend a lot of time trying to figure out
answers to questions that might be helpful for people to
(02:29):
actually drive investment. And then in doing that and working
through a lot of brands and rights holders, we're able
to unlock millions of dollars in kind of funding towards women,
whether that's as consumers, as fans, as artists, as athletes,
as teams, leagues, whatever that looks like. So it's a
really unique business model that we have, but it's one
that that works for us and our company and how
(02:49):
we're structured, and really we've kind of found our sweet
spot and how to do that.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, I love to ligne on the Collective page that
says credibility comes with expertise, which is from that research
that you're doing, but also the experience you have working
with female athletes. You've been working with them since two
thousand and three and then didn't start the Collective till
twenty nineteen, so you'd had all this time to understand
how brands needed to be pitched to work with those athletes,
(03:14):
how the women's leagues maybe operate differently in the sports
industrial complex. And then you know, I mentioned earlier that
Wasserman is a talent agency. How does the day in
and day out of being an agency that reps athletes
change or influence what you end up creating with the Collective.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, so it's it's a great question. And the Collective
was really born out of the credibility that the agency
and the agents that started this company alongside Casey in
two thousand and two and started representing some of the
best action sports athletes, and then into you know, women's
basketball long before it was popular, and women's soccer long
before it was popular, to be able to now kind
(03:56):
of galvanize that into a much more global business across
moultiple continents across multiple sports for women for women athletes,
and then evolving into two artists and entertainers as well
for the collective. You know, our goal is to sit
within the center of the company and actually provide the
resources that help support our agents, which then sit in
(04:19):
support of the talent. So how do we better inform
our agents to be smarter about the value of their
of their clients. How do we help them, you know,
understand different formalities around inclusion writers, or maternity clauses or
things that might work across the board, just to make
the world a better place for women. So that's what
we look to do within the talent space. We are
(04:42):
incredibly fortunate to have some of the best agents in
the business since the get go, who are out there
representing women who are really looking to make change across
the ecosystem on behalf of women. And I would say,
and I think some of our other agents would say,
you know, we've really built our own competition. We've created
at our own competition, improving that we can actually make
(05:03):
money off of this, but also and do good work
through providing our athletes with incredible opportunities to create change
for generations behind them.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, I mean there's so much work that follows once
you set a standard with the athletes with whom you work.
But there's also a lot of stuff that the collective
does that is informing everyone else in the space so
that they're not just copycatting, you're actually educating them. I
want to talk about that in a second, but you know,
I think the business argument for me is clear for
(05:34):
those in the know now, but culturally you also have
to be the place to meet that moment and be
in position to launch it and be trusted with the work.
So can you tell me some of those early things
you did, whether that's shoe deals, brand connections to athletes,
things like that, early on in the game, that sort
of when it was time to start the collective you said,
(05:54):
we're well equipped and we're the right people to do this.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, I mean yes, so long before the collective was
actually formed, early on, some of our agents were responsible
for doing, you know, the first shoe deal with a
with an openly gay athlete with Britney Griner, to creating
or putting a woman on the cover and EA sports
you know game essentially, and I think it was twenty
(06:18):
fifteen with Alex Morgan, to creating the first barbie that
wore a hit job with ifdhaj Muhammad, to you know, iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate,
Like there's just so many firsts one after another, to
having the first inclusion rider with Simone Manuel with tear swimsuits,
so like one thing after another after another, and those
(06:40):
are those are elements which are important to our clients
first and foremants, so our agents are always acting on
behalf of the client. But it's also happens to be
groundbreaking for the rest of the business, which is you know,
equally exciting, and every agent and every you know, athlete
beyond them should be grateful for that in some ways
because we were able to kind of open up the
door that may not have been opened before.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah. I think what's so interesting about like almost all
of those two is it's not as simple as just
saying the first woman to do this thing. Maybe that's
the case for Alex Morgan and the video game, but
for Britney Griner and it being an openly gay athlete,
for Simon Manuel and it being a black swimmer who
needed particular needs. For it to be Ibdhajh who needed
particular needs that relate to she is. It's the intersectionality
(07:23):
of women's sports that you have to understand in order
to serve your clients and the space. I have a friend, SJ.
Sarah Johnson, who I used to work with the ESPN
that just started this new company called Yes and Media,
and the whole goal of it is to be able
to say to people, are you using the right lighting
for black athletes? Are you introducing the right content for
(07:44):
gay and queer athletes? Are you thinking about who's on
set for the women that are going to be the
models or the spokespeople for the product that you have,
or are you setting it up like it's a shoot
for men? And so much of that is just forgotten
when people try to treat women like small men instead
of really understanding the space. And so I think it
makes sense that you would look at all those little
(08:05):
steps and then say, all right, we need a bigger
thing that addresses these needs and also informs and educates
others so that they show up in the space and
do it right. Because for me, part of the problem
in women's sports has always been people blame the product
when it's a failure of imagination or preparation from the
brand's sponsors, leagues, et cetera that are trying to operate
within it. So tell me about this collective think tank,
(08:28):
because I think that's the core of so much of
what the collective wants to do, and that is to
educate others, even if it means educating your competition.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Even if it does mean that, because ultimately, you know,
we all rise when we all are doing better. It's
not like we're going to solve gender equity tomorrow. And yeah,
the collective like it's going to take all of us
and it's probably not going to be tomorrow, so but
let's keep at it. And so yeah, we we you know,
when we first started the collective knowing that we were
already doing the work and talent, knowing that we were
(08:57):
already working alongside some of the most incredibly informed and
talented cmos and CEOs who were women on our brand side.
And that's so much of our leadership within Wasserman are women.
We you know, have just an incredible roster of top
executives at this company who are leading within the space.
And so how could we go out and create something
that actually really thoughtfully starts to push forward for women,
(09:19):
and part of that was just getting curious about, well
what exists, And really what it came down to at
the time was we did a lot of research and
looked at you know, well, women are at that point,
you know, almost half of a sport fan base, and
we're more than half of a music fan base, and
we're driving so much of a household purchase eighty five
percent of household purchases, And like, why are we being
marketed to the same as each other, as our dads,
(09:41):
our brothers, our husbands, our sons literally, and could we
as an industry be a little bit more informed about
what we need as fans and as athletes, et cetera.
And when you start to go down that rabbit hole,
how much fun there are to look at all these
different things. And it's everything from like, well what do
women athletes need, from like shoes that actually fit them,
to you know, looking at their menstrual cycles for better performance,
(10:05):
to they may need childcare in their CBA to then
look at you know, what do these teams needs. They
need to be up valued, they need to have a
kind of a leg up in terms of how they're
looking to commercialize their assets, and so That's where the
structure of Wasserman really comes into play from a consulting side,
because we already do a lot of these things, and
(10:25):
so we're able to then stop and say, how do
we look at that through the lens of women with
the only aim is to create more revenue and investment
in women. So how do we take the things that
we're doing, create defensible math around valuations, create defensible ways
to look at up valuing and up you know, uh, well,
I guess value on every level, not just mathematically, h
(10:48):
the ecosystem so that women come out ahead of where
they were before. And so that's truly what our goal is.
And if that entails allowing our competition to have some
of the insights that we're having, or anybody to have that,
then that's okay because ultimately they're able to run within
and do better than go team. You know, there's there's
plenty of work for everybody here.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, And I think, you know, I like the idea
of defensible math because for a long time it was
a sort of subjective argument that bordered on what you
might say to pitch someone on charity. And part of
that was that there weren't the researchers, the reporters, and
the folks getting the data that was necessary to walk
into spaces and say, here's the business decision that goes
(11:31):
behind this. So you take this think tank, twenty colleges
and universities represented from around the world, these folks who
collaborate and create this research. And what's been really cool
about it As you roll out these different reports, there's
some really great data points that every person can use
in their meetings with their boss or their clients or
folks that they want to work with. And the conclusions
(11:53):
that you've come to can really change the way people
behave within the space. So I want to hear about
some of those, and I want to start with the
research that you did on women who are fans of sports,
whether men's or women's sports. What do we know about
their spending power and how it's trending upward and yet
they aren't really being harnessed or sold to. This is
my favorite thing because I'm always saying, how come we
(12:14):
always say bitches be shopping and then we're not like, hey,
let's get them to shop with us. We just make
fun of it and don't even acknowledge it. And then
we're still like men eighteen to forty nine. That's all
we care.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
About, yeah, or we look at it from a point
of view of we're not sure. I don't think it's
a matter of rights holders or brands not being creative enough.
I think it's just a matter of time and trying
to Like it's literally feels like reinventing the wheel in
some ways. And so our goal in this latest research, which,
by the way, to answer your other questions, sorry for that.
(12:45):
The think tank is like such a gem because it
brings together some of the most we're up to I
think thirty three different schools today globally, and it brings
together some of the greatest thought leaders and researchers across
the women's ecosystem. So it's not just women's sports, like hey,
I'm interested in women in leadership, or hey, I'm interested
in women in sport romance, or hey, I'm interested in whatever,
and those people are coming together to work together on
(13:08):
research or to pollinate, you know, cross pollinate on certain ideas,
which is the point is just to bring people together
in a collective to try to learn from each other
and grow. Sometimes we produce research together sometimes, which was
this isofan study that we did which we can talk about,
and other times we are helping them to create op
eds and then pitching those to get their drum beat
(13:30):
out of their ideas out of an academic file, if
you will, an academic publication, and more to a bite
size idea than twelve thousand words that sets you know,
in the university. But this research that we just did
was really coming out of this idea of like, hey,
(13:50):
if we know that women are really the most important consumer,
we're driving you know, huge amounts of household spend eighty
five percent around the world. We're going to own seventy
five percent of discretionary spend.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Glo, wow, wow, seventy five percent. Listen to that. Women
will control seventy five percent of global discretionary spending by
twenty thirty.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
By twenty thirty, and then we will also have one
hundred trillion dollars kind of of wealth transferred to us
by twenty forty eight. So like, hello, pay attention, We've
got money. And by the way, we are super big
sports fans. Our study last year really looked at women
as just fans of sport, and seventy two percent of
US globally said, hey, we're avid fans. We're not just
(14:34):
like kind of fans. We're advance And by the way,
like a third of those came in the last three years,
so like we are all leaned in into sport. And
so this is exciting for us as an industry to
stop and go, how do we actually capitalize on her?
The challenge becomes that we are fans, and we are
you know, have the money, but what we don't have, Sarah,
is time. Whether you're married or single, kids or no kids.
(14:57):
We are just doing more unpaid work, are just doing
more of the things that need to be done that
men are not necessarily responsible for or it's just kind
of societally and culturally has not really happened. And so they're.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Thirteen percent, right, wasn't it a crazy number? Like women
have thirteen percent less free time than men.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
In the US? Yeah, in the US, that's correct. It's
like we do two point five hours a day more
than men of unpaid labor.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, So we're tired and we're overworked, and you're asking
us to fan the same way that men have fanned
for generations. And the most original ideas are like, well,
let's make it pink and badazzle it and then they'll
come or whatever that is. And I do I say
that kind of tongue in cheek because there are many
(15:50):
brands and many properties who are trying new things and
who are really trying to see her quote unquote differently
and succeeding, although I would say it's in pockets and
not in totality. And so our premise is actually these
rights holders in principle need to go from these kind
of general operators of like I just need to sell
(16:10):
tickets and put a team on the field, and like
win championships, which yes, you still need to do that
to you actually just need to see yourself as a
fan let engagement company, and that is where you need
to focus because ultimately, if you're driving her and satisfying
her both in venue and out of venue, which is
the real crux and the real kind of creative idea is,
then you'll really win her over. So in venue, you
(16:32):
could say like, hey, how do you, as a mom,
just make this seamless for me? Like we're only as
happy as our least happy child, truly, so just make
it totally easy from soup to nuts, from parking lot
to everything that we're eating where I don't feel awful
about it. They're not their bellies donate, they're not whining.
We feel like we're cared for, like all of the things. Two,
I'm there with my friends and I want to feel
(16:52):
like I'm not just sitting side by side, but we're
hanging out in pot whatever the things are, that it
feels like a really fun night out and that it's
a good investment of my time, and then I want
to go back again, whether I'm there with my family
or my friends. The second piece of that is like
out of the venue, how can we actually reach her
where she is? And what I mean by that is, I,
(17:12):
you know, have three kids that have gone through a
soccer club that's tied to another soccer club, like a
professional club, And wouldn't it be cool And here's a
great idea if we could like be seen for the
fact that we're running our kids all over the state
six days, seven days a week, and do a deal
(17:33):
with HelloFresh and that Hello Fresh sees me every week
or every month and says, here's a free meal because
we see you. We see that you're trying to like
be all things to all people. And that for me
creates loyalty. And that's a silly idea, and maybe I'll
go help them sell that in but it's just a
single idea of like, you know, we just want to
(17:55):
feel kind of cared for. If you make fandom a chore,
we're not. It's just like you're not going to get
our money.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Well, And for such a long time there were barriers
to entry, both in terms of expectation, like if you
don't fan this way the way we see the avid
male fan, then you're not a real fan. And also
I think, you know, we dealt with this at espnW
a decade plus ago, this idea of like, yes, there
are some women served by sports as is, and that's great,
and here's a bunch of research on other women that
(18:23):
might be served differently. And instead of it feeling like
an affront to women everywhere and to super fans, when
we offer up the opportunity for a different experience, instead
say the more the merrier. If those people are not
served by the current experience they're having, let's offer up
some other ways. And I think that's getting easier now
because there's more acceptance as opposed to before when it
felt like we were forced to pink and bidazzle our
(18:44):
way into it as women, and that was the only
option because that's how everyone saw us. Now, thankfully, we're
seeing women and every single fan as this not a monolith,
but as super multifaceted. Even one single person one day
can be a mom with her kids and, like you said,
the next day want to go drink with her friends
at the game, And that's a different product that you're
trying to serve. So women fans of sport are different
(19:06):
than fans of women's sport. Those folks are male, female,
non binary. What did you learn about fans of women's
sport in that many phases of fandom report that you
put out.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
We learn that there is a real interesting nuance between
the men and women that are watching, in that they're
both equally passionate about women's sports in general, but they
are they are fanning, perhaps similarly or differently, because that's
(19:40):
what the club is serving up to them per se, Like,
here's the experience we're offering to you, and so maybe
there are other experiences based on the new study that
they could try test and learn with. But then in
addition to that, we learn that seventy two percent of
these women are avid sport fans and a huge percentage
of them are women's sports fans. They believe in that,
(20:03):
and they also believe that they will buy. They will
over index in buying. I think it was like fifty
eight percent will buy more products that are supporting women's sports.
So we are, as women fans of women's sports, more
prone to say, we see you supporting us, and so
we will over index as loyal consumers to what you're
trying to do. The men will also do that because
(20:26):
they are women's sports fans. It's an interesting moment, and
it's been an interesting journey from the kind of inception
of the collective in twenty nineteen to see how far
women's sports has come just in the past, you know,
six seven years since we've been been doing this is
really around you know, the growth of the leagues and
the teams and the fandom, but also this kind of
(20:48):
and I'd love your take on this, like the precious
original og you know, fan and like, how do we
now that we have billionaires really like okay, wait, we
see staff here, we're investing, we're leaning in, which means
that there's something here. How do we ensure that that
precious center of culture and and you know kind of
(21:11):
fandom maintains itself as we continue to go that big
money doesn't.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, the purity of what we say we love about
women's sports and how it's different could very easily go
when we end up becoming more like the men in
terms of investment and who's running things. And also we
talked about this on a previous show with Big Citrus,
is how do you make sure you're not pricing out
the people who have been there since day one and
make sure that you still have the most dedicated folks
(21:37):
and not just the ones who are there because it's
a cool place to be seen. Before we move on,
I want to say in that Understanding Fans of Women's
Sport report, you touched on something that we had another
researcher Resa on a month or so ago talking about this,
that there are so many fans of women's sport who
are watching alone and so you separated them into isofan
duo fan and social fan. Can you tell me about
(21:59):
those things and why it matters to understand the differences
in how they behave in the space.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, Reese is amazing and we love the work that
she does and that she's doing now with Parity, which
is an awesome organization. And she and another professor out
of UMass at the time did a study I think
it was in twenty nineteen that basically, you know, queried
WNBA fans for like, hey, how are you watching this?
And I don't remember all of the questions, but it
(22:25):
turned out like twenty eight percent of them were watching alone.
They had nobody to share their fandom with. And so
they came to us and said, well, as part of
the think tank, what do you think about this? And
we were like, well, the entire world has changed since
twenty nineteen for women's sports, so let's go rerun that,
and let's rerun it and also look at NWSL and PWHL.
And what turns out is that we looked at not
(22:47):
only are they isofans as we termed them, how many
are they? But how do they fan? Do they want
to be isofans? Like is this something that they're okay with?
And on average, I mean, for the WNBA got better,
it was eighteen percent. So I think the fact that
the WNBA has culturally kind of been more accepted that
more fans were like Okay, I'm feeling good about my
(23:08):
fandom and I'm okay with sharing this, but still eighteen percent,
we're like, I'm cool, I'm good on my own. That's,
you know, almost twenty percent. Same thing around NWSL I
think it was, and then PWHL was twenty one percent.
But what's interesting about this is that we looked at,
if you're ISO fanning, do you want to isofan? Do
(23:29):
you still engage in purchasing behaviors? Do you still by merch?
They still do all of those things. They just want
to be kind of lurking, if you will, and like scrolling.
They don't necessarily want to be the poster. And then
you have duo fans, and those are the people that
are like, this is my girl or this is my guy,
and we're fans and we're going together and this is
our kind of mutual experience. And then we have social fans,
(23:49):
and the social fans are ones that go in groups
and it's a whole thing. And by the way, this
is important because teams and leagues can then stop and
look at, how should we be really targeting these fans
a little bit better, Like if we're able to dissect
and dive in a little bit more to who we
are as fans, then we're able to provide that service
in a unique way, and then we're able to get
more out of us, if you will, because we feel
(24:11):
more seen, more cared for, more excited about the entire experience, which,
by the way, going back to this kind of idea
around fandom of women, like we engage in that differently,
as you know from espnW, Like we want storytelling, we
want we want the whole surround. Sound like I don't
like when people say, oh, well, she only came into
the sport because of Taylor Swift. Well who cares. Yeah,
(24:34):
she's in welcome, like she's in and like that's awesome,
and she's she might not want to know how many
yards somebody carried for, but she's all about the game,
and she's all about the fantdom and she's buying your
merch thumbs up. So yeah, I just feel like it's
a whole new day, and the more we can dissect
and you know, make it easy for brands and properties
(24:56):
to really engage in, the better.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah. There are a lot of male fans who I
just want to go to a Cubs game and drink beer,
and they kind of know what's going on, but they're
not looking at the stats the same way. And sometimes
they're asking me questions because I'm the one who can
tell them about which pitcher is doing X or Y.
And I think the judgment is there for fans of
women's sport, but not of men's I was just sitting
down with Super Slice. Actually, my friend Emma aka the
(25:19):
stitch God, and she went to the first women's sports
bar here in Chicago called Babes, and she was like,
I can't tell you what a unique and amazing experience
it was to be watching a WNBA finals game and
to turn to a table of strangers and be able
to talk to them about like Alyssa Thomas versus Asia
Wilson and what they were doing to cover, you know,
Jewel Lloyd or whatever. That is a rare experience for
so many fans of women's sports, and so the more
(25:41):
we can recognize that that's been missing and provide it,
not only will those fans that are already here be
so happy, but so many more will come in because
it's more fun when everybody somewhere is really passionately watching
something and excited about it. I always think about how,
for like decades, Americans were really wanting soccer because they
just saw that other countries had so much fun doing it.
(26:04):
We got to take a quick break more with there.
Right after this, Okay, last quick research I wanted to
point to. This is how brands are missing a major
investment opportunity when it comes to the women's sports space.
And this one's really fascinating for me because you have
so much capital with brands already, and then you have
all the athletes that you work with, So tell me
(26:24):
about the Athena pledge. I kind of love. It's like
it's like mildly like peer pressure. It's like a little
bit of shame, and we're wrapping it all up into
getting people to do something that makes sense for their business.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And as yeah, I would say it's hardly that, actually
I would, but I see where you could see that
it's actually more about And it was a great idea
that was brought about by Pete Giorgio from Deloitte. What
happened was Pete was like, hey, how do we actually
if we're spending a certain threshold of money within women's sports,
how do we actually get other people to do that?
And how do we galvanize together to convince each other
(26:59):
of our best practice in best learnings, to continue to
iterate around spend, but also get more people in. So
it's like, hey, we're doing it. The water's warm, come
on in. And what that's really turned into with Deloitte
and Cisco and AT and T and cap one is
we've been able to actually create different learning summits and
(27:21):
monthly meetings where these brands are able to hear from
different properties, or they're able to hear from other brands,
are able to hear from athletes around what needs to change,
what is working, what are some of their best case studies.
Because ultimately, you know, these brands are invested heavily and
they want to they want to see change. They're not
(27:43):
just in it because they're I mean, these are some
of the most you know, OG brands that are in
women's sports, and so they really want to continue to
push and get other brands invested in it. And so
the collective kind of sits in the center of that
group as an operating partner, if you will. That helps
to create the content for those meetings, that helps to
create some of the ideas around how we organize and
(28:06):
it's such an honor, candidly and a privilege to be
able to sit in that spot and to be able
to work with other brands to try to convince them
to join up.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Can I ask what their impetus is for wanting other
brands to either compete in the space or fight them
for some of the contracts and deals.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I wouldn't even say it's fighting for. I think it's
more trying to demystify this idea around women's sports. So
it's I don't think it's so much, Hey, let's get
into a bidding war together, as much as it is.
Do you have questions about why you should be investing
in women's sports? We are a council of brands that
are here to be able to bring an ear and
a place and a resource for you to understand how
(28:45):
we've done it and why we're investing and the types
we're saying.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
And I guess they want that so the brands and
leagues they already are invested in get even more financial support,
so they're more sustainable, more successful, seen on a bigger platform.
It serves their investment to have other people also bring
their money. Yeah, you know, one of the things that
so many of us love and appreciate about women's sports
is the intersectionality, the fact that fans and athletes are
(29:11):
able to show up as their authentic selves. It feels
like more than just sports a lot of the time.
But this is a really polarized environment. A lot of
brands and sponsors have sort of stepped back from previous
DEI commitments or have felt like they don't want to
put themselves out in a way that takes aside. Have
you seen any ripple effects in how brands are willing
to lean into women's sports as a results of the
(29:32):
fact that it sort of sometimes feels politicized, even if
they're not making any statements.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Not really. I think what where we have where we
the collective have really settled in on in which we
would also talk to our brands and rights older clients,
is like, it's actually more about the investment than it
is about the right thing, you know for because it's
a d and I it's not it's about good business
and let's talk about the business piece of it. And
(30:00):
I think in this current climate and environment, you're seeing
that even more brands and more investors are coming in,
so they're seeing the potential in the investment. And I mean,
I feel like every single week it's like new club launched,
new billionaire coming in, new thing happening, you know. So
this is all exciting, So I don't necessarily think it's
(30:23):
affecting it as much as one would think in the
investment of what's happening within the space.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah. I want to close with a quote from your
Collective colleague, Elizabeth Lindsay, who is brilliant and hilarious. I
finally got the chance to hear a bunch from her
at a summit out in Portland, and I was like, Okay,
I want to hang with this lady, so you need
to bring her along to some of our adventures that
we've been on. She was awesome, but she told Variety
(30:50):
Magazine in the article about the five years of the
Collective quote, Casey Wasserman made a commitment to equal resources
for our group, and I'll tell you that the revenue
did not justify that commitment on that day. It was
an investment. And it was always an example of certainly vision,
but you can do good and also do great business.
And this was the perfect example of when those things
are really one and the same. It was never charity.
(31:11):
We're not the Wasserman Foundation. This was a commitment to
growing a business. And I think now we're seeing proof
that that was a really smart bet end quote, and
that sounds like the historical path of women's sports, the
idea of like, this isn't a charity. And yet also
you can't expect it to pay off day one. If
you're not willing to put in the time and you're
not willing to see the vision, this isn't going to work.
(31:33):
So I just love that it feels like this is
in part the same kind of bet these other leagues
and brands are making, but also it's taking on this
incredible role of educating all those other people so that
they make sure that their bet works. I just want
to ask you as we close, like what your next
big idea is, because if this is kind of mirroring
(31:54):
the path of women's sports, how do you see the
rocketship of the collective or of your role in the space.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, And I will just say that Elizabeth is amazing
and I learned from literally learn from her every single day.
She's incredible. But you know, the collective, that journey that
we have been on is very similar to women's sport,
and we've been fortunate to be able to ride alongside
that and have a key role in that where we
(32:22):
because of how Wasserman is structured and where we continue
to grow, we the collective are able to now serve
much more broadly in terms of regions. So we're doing
a lot of work in other regions, whether that's in Europe,
the UK, Middle East, Asia, Australia, and so that is
essentially taking the ways of working that we've established and
(32:44):
being able to iterate those out so that we're able
to unlock new revenue across an investment across the women's
sports space, particularly in these other regions, which is exciting.
You know, when the collective is working on a new business,
whether that's particularly from the consulting side, sure there's revenue
coming into to the business, but ultimately we are actually
(33:06):
judging ourselves on what is the revenue we are unlocking
in the investment we are unlocking fork teams and for
athletes and for clubs through these brand particularly brand spends,
and that for us is the barometer by which we
really measure ourselves and so you know, we won't rest
until it's many, many hundreds of millions of dollars, and
so that's a huge focus for us. I would say,
(33:27):
you know, look out for us and other verticals of
where our business is. So we're you know, looking into
you know, we're launching a music and a couple other
areas of content and creator stuff. So it's going to
be it's going to be busy.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Going to be busy, and we of course still have
to find time to write that book, so you know,
keep your schedule open.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
The more teams though, the more there are to WORRT
it with.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Don't be given away ideas what are you doing? No details,
no details. They are so great to have you, and
I assume we'll be up to some more adventures sometime soon.
So I'll see you wherever I see you.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
I look forward to it.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Thank you, thanks again to they are for joining us.
We got to take another break when we return. Halloween
Hughes for the win, Welcome back slices. We always love
that you're listening, but we want you to get in
the game every day too, So here's our good game
play of the day. You can check out all the
research they are talked about by visiting the collective website,
(34:28):
where you can download the various reports. Use them to
inform your investments, pitch business, or just to talk shit
to jag offs who don't know their ass from their elbow.
When it comes to women's sports data, we'll link to
the site in our show notes. We always love to
hear from you. Hit us up on email, good game
at wondermedianetwork dot com, or leave us a voicemail at
eight seven two two four fifty seventy and don't forget
(34:50):
to subscribe, rate and review. Do it, Do it right now,
scroll down, click five stars. Tell us you'll love us.
It's really easy. Watch a time tinted trainer, a seasonally
shaded shoe, a haul Hugh Ween high top rating ten
out of ten. Clapbacks at the Haters review. As if
(35:10):
there weren't already enough reasons to love Asia, Wilson add
to the list that the Queen of Hoops is shining
a spotlight on delicious, delightful candy corn. Uh huh, I
said it. One of the many colorways for the A
one Nikes is called the Candy Corn Queen. The shoe
fades from white to orange to yellow with a little
gold swoosh. Put them on your feet, carry around a
(35:31):
bag of the sweets. Let the world know what's up. Now,
it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, See
you tomorrow. Good game There, Good game. Fans of women's
sport no matter how you watch you, people who talk
shit about candy corn let my chewy little triangle weirdos live.
(35:55):
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,
our producers are alex Azzie Grace, Lynch, Taylor Williamson, and
Lucy Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jennie Kaplan and Emily Rutterer. Our editors are Emily Rutter,
(36:17):
Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer. Production assistants from Avery Loftus
and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're back
in beautiful Ohai, California for the espnW Summit, rebin elbows
with legendary athletes, sipin' wine with big wig execs, and
strategizing the best way to trap Alonamar in a room
for twenty minutes to chat with us before she's swept
away for another big event or red carpet. Wish us luck.
(00:22):
It's Tuesday, October twentieth, and on today's show, we'll be
skipping the need to know and getting straight to my
conversation with Thayer Lavil, managing director at the Collective, the
Women's Division of the Wasserman Talent Agency. We discuss how
research has helped accelerate investment in women's sports, the effect
of more and more brands getting into the space, and
the value of understanding the behavior and purchase power of
(00:42):
fans of women's sport. That conversation's coming up right after this.
Joining us now, she's the managing director at the Collective,
the Women's Division of the Wasserman Talent Agency. She's negotiated
over two hundred and fifty million dollars worth of talent, brand,
property and venue deals. In sports and entertainment, and at
(01:02):
the Collective, she's changing the way brands, investors, agents, athletes,
and fans see and work in the women's sports space.
We've put our heads together for the Gatorade Women's Advisory Board.
We've soaked up the sun together in Ohi, California. We've
bonded at Barclays watching the New York Liberty, and we
have a kernel of an idea for a children's book
that we can't say a single thing more about until
it races up the bestseller charts, which would require us
to actually write it and produce it. It's there, l'aveal hi.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
There, hi, Sarah, nice to be here, Thanks for having me,
Thanks for coming on. We do need to get on
that book idea.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
For sure, someone else is going to get to it
if we don't. And with all of our free time,
I don't know what we're just sitting around doing.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Would that's right? Exactly? Just trying to save the world,
one team at a time.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
That's right. So tell our listeners about the Collective, When
was it formed, what does it do?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah? So the Collective is essentially part of Wasserman's broader
group that's really focused on just advancing the power of women,
and we do that through kind of the core businesses
that we have, which one side is talent representation across sport, music,
and entertainment, and the other side is really through our
consultative and sales businesses, and our group is really just
(02:09):
looking to provide the business rational to invest in women,
and so we do that largely through advocacy, work of
research and insights. How do we just basically go convince
people to invest in women, because by the way, unfortunately
we need proof for that repeatedly, and so we do it.
We spend a lot of time trying to figure out
answers to questions that might be helpful for people to
(02:29):
actually drive investment. And then in doing that and working
through a lot of brands and rights holders, we're able
to unlock millions of dollars in kind of funding towards women,
whether that's as consumers, as fans, as artists, as athletes,
as teams, leagues, whatever that looks like. So it's a
really unique business model that we have, but it's one
that that works for us and our company and how
(02:49):
we're structured, and really we've kind of found our sweet
spot and how to do that.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, I love to ligne on the Collective page that
says credibility comes with expertise, which is from that research
that you're doing, but also the experience you have working
with female athletes. You've been working with them since two
thousand and three and then didn't start the Collective till
twenty nineteen, so you'd had all this time to understand
how brands needed to be pitched to work with those athletes,
(03:14):
how the women's leagues maybe operate differently in the sports
industrial complex. And then you know, I mentioned earlier that
Wasserman is a talent agency. How does the day in
and day out of being an agency that reps athletes
change or influence what you end up creating with the Collective.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, so it's it's a great question. And the Collective
was really born out of the credibility that the agency
and the agents that started this company alongside Casey in
two thousand and two and started representing some of the
best action sports athletes, and then into you know, women's
basketball long before it was popular, and women's soccer long
before it was popular, to be able to now kind
(03:56):
of galvanize that into a much more global business across
moultiple continents across multiple sports for women for women athletes,
and then evolving into two artists and entertainers as well
for the collective. You know, our goal is to sit
within the center of the company and actually provide the
resources that help support our agents, which then sit in
(04:19):
support of the talent. So how do we better inform
our agents to be smarter about the value of their
of their clients. How do we help them, you know,
understand different formalities around inclusion writers, or maternity clauses or
things that might work across the board, just to make
the world a better place for women. So that's what
we look to do within the talent space. We are
(04:42):
incredibly fortunate to have some of the best agents in
the business since the get go, who are out there
representing women who are really looking to make change across
the ecosystem on behalf of women. And I would say,
and I think some of our other agents would say,
you know, we've really built our own competition. We've created
at our own competition, improving that we can actually make
(05:03):
money off of this, but also and do good work
through providing our athletes with incredible opportunities to create change
for generations behind them.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, I mean there's so much work that follows once
you set a standard with the athletes with whom you work.
But there's also a lot of stuff that the collective
does that is informing everyone else in the space so
that they're not just copycatting, you're actually educating them. I
want to talk about that in a second, but you know,
I think the business argument for me is clear for
(05:34):
those in the know now, but culturally you also have
to be the place to meet that moment and be
in position to launch it and be trusted with the work.
So can you tell me some of those early things
you did, whether that's shoe deals, brand connections to athletes,
things like that, early on in the game, that sort
of when it was time to start the collective you said,
(05:54):
we're well equipped and we're the right people to do this.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, I mean yes, so long before the collective was
actually formed, early on, some of our agents were responsible
for doing, you know, the first shoe deal with a
with an openly gay athlete with Britney Griner, to creating
or putting a woman on the cover and EA sports
you know game essentially, and I think it was twenty
(06:18):
fifteen with Alex Morgan, to creating the first barbie that
wore a hit job with ifdhaj Muhammad, to you know, iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate,
Like there's just so many firsts one after another, to
having the first inclusion rider with Simone Manuel with tear swimsuits,
so like one thing after another after another, and those
(06:40):
are those are elements which are important to our clients
first and foremants, so our agents are always acting on
behalf of the client. But it's also happens to be
groundbreaking for the rest of the business, which is you know,
equally exciting, and every agent and every you know, athlete
beyond them should be grateful for that in some ways
because we were able to kind of open up the
door that may not have been opened before.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah. I think what's so interesting about like almost all
of those two is it's not as simple as just
saying the first woman to do this thing. Maybe that's
the case for Alex Morgan and the video game, but
for Britney Griner and it being an openly gay athlete,
for Simon Manuel and it being a black swimmer who
needed particular needs. For it to be Ibdhajh who needed
particular needs that relate to she is. It's the intersectionality
(07:23):
of women's sports that you have to understand in order
to serve your clients and the space. I have a friend, SJ.
Sarah Johnson, who I used to work with the ESPN
that just started this new company called Yes and Media,
and the whole goal of it is to be able
to say to people, are you using the right lighting
for black athletes? Are you introducing the right content for
(07:44):
gay and queer athletes? Are you thinking about who's on
set for the women that are going to be the
models or the spokespeople for the product that you have,
or are you setting it up like it's a shoot
for men? And so much of that is just forgotten
when people try to treat women like small men instead
of really understanding the space. And so I think it
makes sense that you would look at all those little
(08:05):
steps and then say, all right, we need a bigger
thing that addresses these needs and also informs and educates
others so that they show up in the space and
do it right. Because for me, part of the problem
in women's sports has always been people blame the product
when it's a failure of imagination or preparation from the
brand's sponsors, leagues, et cetera that are trying to operate
within it. So tell me about this collective think tank,
(08:28):
because I think that's the core of so much of
what the collective wants to do, and that is to
educate others, even if it means educating your competition.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Even if it does mean that, because ultimately, you know,
we all rise when we all are doing better. It's
not like we're going to solve gender equity tomorrow. And yeah,
the collective like it's going to take all of us
and it's probably not going to be tomorrow, so but
let's keep at it. And so yeah, we we you know,
when we first started the collective knowing that we were
already doing the work and talent, knowing that we were
(08:57):
already working alongside some of the most incredibly informed and
talented cmos and CEOs who were women on our brand side.
And that's so much of our leadership within Wasserman are women.
We you know, have just an incredible roster of top
executives at this company who are leading within the space.
And so how could we go out and create something
that actually really thoughtfully starts to push forward for women,
(09:19):
and part of that was just getting curious about, well
what exists, And really what it came down to at
the time was we did a lot of research and
looked at you know, well, women are at that point,
you know, almost half of a sport fan base, and
we're more than half of a music fan base, and
we're driving so much of a household purchase eighty five
percent of household purchases, And like, why are we being
marketed to the same as each other, as our dads,
(09:41):
our brothers, our husbands, our sons literally, and could we
as an industry be a little bit more informed about
what we need as fans and as athletes, et cetera.
And when you start to go down that rabbit hole,
how much fun there are to look at all these
different things. And it's everything from like, well what do
women athletes need, from like shoes that actually fit them,
to you know, looking at their menstrual cycles for better performance,
(10:05):
to they may need childcare in their CBA to then
look at you know, what do these teams needs. They
need to be up valued, they need to have a
kind of a leg up in terms of how they're
looking to commercialize their assets, and so That's where the
structure of Wasserman really comes into play from a consulting side,
because we already do a lot of these things, and
(10:25):
so we're able to then stop and say, how do
we look at that through the lens of women with
the only aim is to create more revenue and investment
in women. So how do we take the things that
we're doing, create defensible math around valuations, create defensible ways
to look at up valuing and up you know, uh, well,
I guess value on every level, not just mathematically, h
(10:48):
the ecosystem so that women come out ahead of where
they were before. And so that's truly what our goal is.
And if that entails allowing our competition to have some
of the insights that we're having, or anybody to have that,
then that's okay because ultimately they're able to run within
and do better than go team. You know, there's there's
plenty of work for everybody here.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, And I think, you know, I like the idea
of defensible math because for a long time it was
a sort of subjective argument that bordered on what you
might say to pitch someone on charity. And part of
that was that there weren't the researchers, the reporters, and
the folks getting the data that was necessary to walk
into spaces and say, here's the business decision that goes
(11:31):
behind this. So you take this think tank, twenty colleges
and universities represented from around the world, these folks who
collaborate and create this research. And what's been really cool
about it As you roll out these different reports, there's
some really great data points that every person can use
in their meetings with their boss or their clients or
folks that they want to work with. And the conclusions
(11:53):
that you've come to can really change the way people
behave within the space. So I want to hear about
some of those, and I want to start with the
research that you did on women who are fans of sports,
whether men's or women's sports. What do we know about
their spending power and how it's trending upward and yet
they aren't really being harnessed or sold to. This is
my favorite thing because I'm always saying, how come we
(12:14):
always say bitches be shopping and then we're not like, hey,
let's get them to shop with us. We just make
fun of it and don't even acknowledge it. And then
we're still like men eighteen to forty nine. That's all
we care.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
About, yeah, or we look at it from a point
of view of we're not sure. I don't think it's
a matter of rights holders or brands not being creative enough.
I think it's just a matter of time and trying
to Like it's literally feels like reinventing the wheel in
some ways. And so our goal in this latest research, which,
by the way, to answer your other questions, sorry for that.
(12:45):
The think tank is like such a gem because it
brings together some of the most we're up to I
think thirty three different schools today globally, and it brings
together some of the greatest thought leaders and researchers across
the women's ecosystem. So it's not just women's sports, like hey,
I'm interested in women in leadership, or hey, I'm interested
in women in sport romance, or hey, I'm interested in whatever,
and those people are coming together to work together on
(13:08):
research or to pollinate, you know, cross pollinate on certain ideas,
which is the point is just to bring people together
in a collective to try to learn from each other
and grow. Sometimes we produce research together sometimes, which was
this isofan study that we did which we can talk about,
and other times we are helping them to create op
eds and then pitching those to get their drum beat
(13:30):
out of their ideas out of an academic file, if
you will, an academic publication, and more to a bite
size idea than twelve thousand words that sets you know,
in the university. But this research that we just did
was really coming out of this idea of like, hey,
(13:50):
if we know that women are really the most important consumer,
we're driving you know, huge amounts of household spend eighty
five percent around the world. We're going to own seventy
five percent of discretionary spend.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Glo, wow, wow, seventy five percent. Listen to that. Women
will control seventy five percent of global discretionary spending by
twenty thirty.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
By twenty thirty, and then we will also have one
hundred trillion dollars kind of of wealth transferred to us
by twenty forty eight. So like, hello, pay attention, We've
got money. And by the way, we are super big
sports fans. Our study last year really looked at women
as just fans of sport, and seventy two percent of
US globally said, hey, we're avid fans. We're not just
(14:34):
like kind of fans. We're advance And by the way,
like a third of those came in the last three years,
so like we are all leaned in into sport. And
so this is exciting for us as an industry to
stop and go, how do we actually capitalize on her?
The challenge becomes that we are fans, and we are
you know, have the money, but what we don't have, Sarah,
is time. Whether you're married or single, kids or no kids.
(14:57):
We are just doing more unpaid work, are just doing
more of the things that need to be done that
men are not necessarily responsible for or it's just kind
of societally and culturally has not really happened. And so they're.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Thirteen percent, right, wasn't it a crazy number? Like women
have thirteen percent less free time than men.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
In the US? Yeah, in the US, that's correct. It's
like we do two point five hours a day more
than men of unpaid labor.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, So we're tired and we're overworked, and you're asking
us to fan the same way that men have fanned
for generations. And the most original ideas are like, well,
let's make it pink and badazzle it and then they'll
come or whatever that is. And I do I say
that kind of tongue in cheek because there are many
(15:50):
brands and many properties who are trying new things and
who are really trying to see her quote unquote differently
and succeeding, although I would say it's in pockets and
not in totality. And so our premise is actually these
rights holders in principle need to go from these kind
of general operators of like I just need to sell
(16:10):
tickets and put a team on the field, and like
win championships, which yes, you still need to do that
to you actually just need to see yourself as a
fan let engagement company, and that is where you need
to focus because ultimately, if you're driving her and satisfying
her both in venue and out of venue, which is
the real crux and the real kind of creative idea is,
then you'll really win her over. So in venue, you
(16:32):
could say like, hey, how do you, as a mom,
just make this seamless for me? Like we're only as
happy as our least happy child, truly, so just make
it totally easy from soup to nuts, from parking lot
to everything that we're eating where I don't feel awful
about it. They're not their bellies donate, they're not whining.
We feel like we're cared for, like all of the things. Two,
I'm there with my friends and I want to feel
(16:52):
like I'm not just sitting side by side, but we're
hanging out in pot whatever the things are, that it
feels like a really fun night out and that it's
a good investment of my time, and then I want
to go back again, whether I'm there with my family
or my friends. The second piece of that is like
out of the venue, how can we actually reach her
where she is? And what I mean by that is, I,
(17:12):
you know, have three kids that have gone through a
soccer club that's tied to another soccer club, like a
professional club, And wouldn't it be cool And here's a
great idea if we could like be seen for the
fact that we're running our kids all over the state
six days, seven days a week, and do a deal
(17:33):
with HelloFresh and that Hello Fresh sees me every week
or every month and says, here's a free meal because
we see you. We see that you're trying to like
be all things to all people. And that for me
creates loyalty. And that's a silly idea, and maybe I'll
go help them sell that in but it's just a
single idea of like, you know, we just want to
(17:55):
feel kind of cared for. If you make fandom a chore,
we're not. It's just like you're not going to get
our money.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Well, And for such a long time there were barriers
to entry, both in terms of expectation, like if you
don't fan this way the way we see the avid
male fan, then you're not a real fan. And also
I think, you know, we dealt with this at espnW
a decade plus ago, this idea of like, yes, there
are some women served by sports as is, and that's great,
and here's a bunch of research on other women that
(18:23):
might be served differently. And instead of it feeling like
an affront to women everywhere and to super fans, when
we offer up the opportunity for a different experience, instead
say the more the merrier. If those people are not
served by the current experience they're having, let's offer up
some other ways. And I think that's getting easier now
because there's more acceptance as opposed to before when it
felt like we were forced to pink and bidazzle our
(18:44):
way into it as women, and that was the only
option because that's how everyone saw us. Now, thankfully, we're
seeing women and every single fan as this not a monolith,
but as super multifaceted. Even one single person one day
can be a mom with her kids and, like you said,
the next day want to go drink with her friends
at the game, And that's a different product that you're
trying to serve. So women fans of sport are different
(19:06):
than fans of women's sport. Those folks are male, female,
non binary. What did you learn about fans of women's
sport in that many phases of fandom report that you
put out.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
We learn that there is a real interesting nuance between
the men and women that are watching, in that they're
both equally passionate about women's sports in general, but they
are they are fanning, perhaps similarly or differently, because that's
(19:40):
what the club is serving up to them per se, Like,
here's the experience we're offering to you, and so maybe
there are other experiences based on the new study that
they could try test and learn with. But then in
addition to that, we learn that seventy two percent of
these women are avid sport fans and a huge percentage
of them are women's sports fans. They believe in that,
(20:03):
and they also believe that they will buy. They will
over index in buying. I think it was like fifty
eight percent will buy more products that are supporting women's sports.
So we are, as women fans of women's sports, more
prone to say, we see you supporting us, and so
we will over index as loyal consumers to what you're
trying to do. The men will also do that because
(20:26):
they are women's sports fans. It's an interesting moment, and
it's been an interesting journey from the kind of inception
of the collective in twenty nineteen to see how far
women's sports has come just in the past, you know,
six seven years since we've been been doing this is
really around you know, the growth of the leagues and
the teams and the fandom, but also this kind of
(20:48):
and I'd love your take on this, like the precious
original og you know, fan and like, how do we
now that we have billionaires really like okay, wait, we
see staff here, we're investing, we're leaning in, which means
that there's something here. How do we ensure that that
precious center of culture and and you know kind of
(21:11):
fandom maintains itself as we continue to go that big
money doesn't.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, the purity of what we say we love about
women's sports and how it's different could very easily go
when we end up becoming more like the men in
terms of investment and who's running things. And also we
talked about this on a previous show with Big Citrus,
is how do you make sure you're not pricing out
the people who have been there since day one and
make sure that you still have the most dedicated folks
(21:37):
and not just the ones who are there because it's
a cool place to be seen. Before we move on,
I want to say in that Understanding Fans of Women's
Sport report, you touched on something that we had another
researcher Resa on a month or so ago talking about this,
that there are so many fans of women's sport who
are watching alone and so you separated them into isofan
duo fan and social fan. Can you tell me about
(21:59):
those things and why it matters to understand the differences
in how they behave in the space.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, Reese is amazing and we love the work that
she does and that she's doing now with Parity, which
is an awesome organization. And she and another professor out
of UMass at the time did a study I think
it was in twenty nineteen that basically, you know, queried
WNBA fans for like, hey, how are you watching this?
And I don't remember all of the questions, but it
(22:25):
turned out like twenty eight percent of them were watching alone.
They had nobody to share their fandom with. And so
they came to us and said, well, as part of
the think tank, what do you think about this? And
we were like, well, the entire world has changed since
twenty nineteen for women's sports, so let's go rerun that,
and let's rerun it and also look at NWSL and PWHL.
And what turns out is that we looked at not
(22:47):
only are they isofans as we termed them, how many
are they? But how do they fan? Do they want
to be isofans? Like is this something that they're okay with?
And on average, I mean, for the WNBA got better,
it was eighteen percent. So I think the fact that
the WNBA has culturally kind of been more accepted that
more fans were like Okay, I'm feeling good about my
(23:08):
fandom and I'm okay with sharing this, but still eighteen percent,
we're like, I'm cool, I'm good on my own. That's,
you know, almost twenty percent. Same thing around NWSL I
think it was, and then PWHL was twenty one percent.
But what's interesting about this is that we looked at,
if you're ISO fanning, do you want to isofan? Do
(23:29):
you still engage in purchasing behaviors? Do you still by merch?
They still do all of those things. They just want
to be kind of lurking, if you will, and like scrolling.
They don't necessarily want to be the poster. And then
you have duo fans, and those are the people that
are like, this is my girl or this is my guy,
and we're fans and we're going together and this is
our kind of mutual experience. And then we have social fans,
(23:49):
and the social fans are ones that go in groups
and it's a whole thing. And by the way, this
is important because teams and leagues can then stop and
look at, how should we be really targeting these fans
a little bit better, Like if we're able to dissect
and dive in a little bit more to who we
are as fans, then we're able to provide that service
in a unique way, and then we're able to get
more out of us, if you will, because we feel
(24:11):
more seen, more cared for, more excited about the entire experience, which,
by the way, going back to this kind of idea
around fandom of women, like we engage in that differently,
as you know from espnW, Like we want storytelling, we
want we want the whole surround. Sound like I don't
like when people say, oh, well, she only came into
the sport because of Taylor Swift. Well who cares. Yeah,
(24:34):
she's in welcome, like she's in and like that's awesome,
and she's she might not want to know how many
yards somebody carried for, but she's all about the game,
and she's all about the fantdom and she's buying your
merch thumbs up. So yeah, I just feel like it's
a whole new day, and the more we can dissect
and you know, make it easy for brands and properties
(24:56):
to really engage in, the better.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah. There are a lot of male fans who I
just want to go to a Cubs game and drink beer,
and they kind of know what's going on, but they're
not looking at the stats the same way. And sometimes
they're asking me questions because I'm the one who can
tell them about which pitcher is doing X or Y.
And I think the judgment is there for fans of
women's sport, but not of men's I was just sitting
down with Super Slice. Actually, my friend Emma aka the
(25:19):
stitch God, and she went to the first women's sports
bar here in Chicago called Babes, and she was like,
I can't tell you what a unique and amazing experience
it was to be watching a WNBA finals game and
to turn to a table of strangers and be able
to talk to them about like Alyssa Thomas versus Asia
Wilson and what they were doing to cover, you know,
Jewel Lloyd or whatever. That is a rare experience for
so many fans of women's sports, and so the more
(25:41):
we can recognize that that's been missing and provide it,
not only will those fans that are already here be
so happy, but so many more will come in because
it's more fun when everybody somewhere is really passionately watching
something and excited about it. I always think about how,
for like decades, Americans were really wanting soccer because they
just saw that other countries had so much fun doing it.
(26:04):
We got to take a quick break more with there.
Right after this, Okay, last quick research I wanted to
point to. This is how brands are missing a major
investment opportunity when it comes to the women's sports space.
And this one's really fascinating for me because you have
so much capital with brands already, and then you have
all the athletes that you work with, So tell me
(26:24):
about the Athena pledge. I kind of love. It's like
it's like mildly like peer pressure. It's like a little
bit of shame, and we're wrapping it all up into
getting people to do something that makes sense for their business.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And as yeah, I would say it's hardly that, actually
I would, but I see where you could see that
it's actually more about And it was a great idea
that was brought about by Pete Giorgio from Deloitte. What
happened was Pete was like, hey, how do we actually
if we're spending a certain threshold of money within women's sports,
how do we actually get other people to do that?
And how do we galvanize together to convince each other
(26:59):
of our best practice in best learnings, to continue to
iterate around spend, but also get more people in. So
it's like, hey, we're doing it. The water's warm, come
on in. And what that's really turned into with Deloitte
and Cisco and AT and T and cap one is
we've been able to actually create different learning summits and
(27:21):
monthly meetings where these brands are able to hear from
different properties, or they're able to hear from other brands,
are able to hear from athletes around what needs to change,
what is working, what are some of their best case studies.
Because ultimately, you know, these brands are invested heavily and
they want to they want to see change. They're not
(27:43):
just in it because they're I mean, these are some
of the most you know, OG brands that are in
women's sports, and so they really want to continue to
push and get other brands invested in it. And so
the collective kind of sits in the center of that
group as an operating partner, if you will. That helps
to create the content for those meetings, that helps to
create some of the ideas around how we organize and
(28:06):
it's such an honor, candidly and a privilege to be
able to sit in that spot and to be able
to work with other brands to try to convince them
to join up.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Can I ask what their impetus is for wanting other
brands to either compete in the space or fight them
for some of the contracts and deals.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I wouldn't even say it's fighting for. I think it's
more trying to demystify this idea around women's sports. So
it's I don't think it's so much, Hey, let's get
into a bidding war together, as much as it is.
Do you have questions about why you should be investing
in women's sports? We are a council of brands that
are here to be able to bring an ear and
a place and a resource for you to understand how
(28:45):
we've done it and why we're investing and the types
we're saying.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
And I guess they want that so the brands and
leagues they already are invested in get even more financial support,
so they're more sustainable, more successful, seen on a bigger platform.
It serves their investment to have other people also bring
their money. Yeah, you know, one of the things that
so many of us love and appreciate about women's sports
is the intersectionality, the fact that fans and athletes are
(29:11):
able to show up as their authentic selves. It feels
like more than just sports a lot of the time.
But this is a really polarized environment. A lot of
brands and sponsors have sort of stepped back from previous
DEI commitments or have felt like they don't want to
put themselves out in a way that takes aside. Have
you seen any ripple effects in how brands are willing
to lean into women's sports as a results of the
(29:32):
fact that it sort of sometimes feels politicized, even if
they're not making any statements.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Not really. I think what where we have where we
the collective have really settled in on in which we
would also talk to our brands and rights older clients,
is like, it's actually more about the investment than it
is about the right thing, you know for because it's
a d and I it's not it's about good business
and let's talk about the business piece of it. And
(30:00):
I think in this current climate and environment, you're seeing
that even more brands and more investors are coming in,
so they're seeing the potential in the investment. And I mean,
I feel like every single week it's like new club launched,
new billionaire coming in, new thing happening, you know. So
this is all exciting, So I don't necessarily think it's
(30:23):
affecting it as much as one would think in the
investment of what's happening within the space.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah. I want to close with a quote from your
Collective colleague, Elizabeth Lindsay, who is brilliant and hilarious. I
finally got the chance to hear a bunch from her
at a summit out in Portland, and I was like, Okay,
I want to hang with this lady, so you need
to bring her along to some of our adventures that
we've been on. She was awesome, but she told Variety
(30:50):
Magazine in the article about the five years of the
Collective quote, Casey Wasserman made a commitment to equal resources
for our group, and I'll tell you that the revenue
did not justify that commitment on that day. It was
an investment. And it was always an example of certainly vision,
but you can do good and also do great business.
And this was the perfect example of when those things
are really one and the same. It was never charity.
(31:11):
We're not the Wasserman Foundation. This was a commitment to
growing a business. And I think now we're seeing proof
that that was a really smart bet end quote, and
that sounds like the historical path of women's sports, the
idea of like, this isn't a charity. And yet also
you can't expect it to pay off day one. If
you're not willing to put in the time and you're
not willing to see the vision, this isn't going to work.
(31:33):
So I just love that it feels like this is
in part the same kind of bet these other leagues
and brands are making, but also it's taking on this
incredible role of educating all those other people so that
they make sure that their bet works. I just want
to ask you as we close, like what your next
big idea is, because if this is kind of mirroring
(31:54):
the path of women's sports, how do you see the
rocketship of the collective or of your role in the space.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, And I will just say that Elizabeth is amazing
and I learned from literally learn from her every single day.
She's incredible. But you know, the collective, that journey that
we have been on is very similar to women's sport,
and we've been fortunate to be able to ride alongside
that and have a key role in that where we
(32:22):
because of how Wasserman is structured and where we continue
to grow, we the collective are able to now serve
much more broadly in terms of regions. So we're doing
a lot of work in other regions, whether that's in Europe,
the UK, Middle East, Asia, Australia, and so that is
essentially taking the ways of working that we've established and
(32:44):
being able to iterate those out so that we're able
to unlock new revenue across an investment across the women's
sports space, particularly in these other regions, which is exciting.
You know, when the collective is working on a new business,
whether that's particularly from the consulting side, sure there's revenue
coming into to the business, but ultimately we are actually
(33:06):
judging ourselves on what is the revenue we are unlocking
in the investment we are unlocking fork teams and for
athletes and for clubs through these brand particularly brand spends,
and that for us is the barometer by which we
really measure ourselves and so you know, we won't rest
until it's many, many hundreds of millions of dollars, and
so that's a huge focus for us. I would say,
(33:27):
you know, look out for us and other verticals of
where our business is. So we're you know, looking into
you know, we're launching a music and a couple other
areas of content and creator stuff. So it's going to
be it's going to be busy.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Going to be busy, and we of course still have
to find time to write that book, so you know,
keep your schedule open.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
The more teams though, the more there are to WORRT
it with.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Don't be given away ideas what are you doing? No details,
no details. They are so great to have you, and
I assume we'll be up to some more adventures sometime soon.
So I'll see you wherever I see you.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
I look forward to it.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Thank you, thanks again to they are for joining us.
We got to take another break when we return. Halloween
Hughes for the win, Welcome back slices. We always love
that you're listening, but we want you to get in
the game every day too, So here's our good game
play of the day. You can check out all the
research they are talked about by visiting the collective website,
(34:28):
where you can download the various reports. Use them to
inform your investments, pitch business, or just to talk shit
to jag offs who don't know their ass from their elbow.
When it comes to women's sports data, we'll link to
the site in our show notes. We always love to
hear from you. Hit us up on email, good game
at wondermedianetwork dot com, or leave us a voicemail at
eight seven two two four fifty seventy and don't forget
(34:50):
to subscribe, rate and review. Do it, Do it right now,
scroll down, click five stars. Tell us you'll love us.
It's really easy. Watch a time tinted trainer, a seasonally
shaded shoe, a haul Hugh Ween high top rating ten
out of ten. Clapbacks at the Haters review. As if
(35:10):
there weren't already enough reasons to love Asia, Wilson add
to the list that the Queen of Hoops is shining
a spotlight on delicious, delightful candy corn. Uh huh, I
said it. One of the many colorways for the A
one Nikes is called the Candy Corn Queen. The shoe
fades from white to orange to yellow with a little
gold swoosh. Put them on your feet, carry around a
(35:31):
bag of the sweets. Let the world know what's up. Now,
it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening, See
you tomorrow. Good game There, Good game. Fans of women's
sport no matter how you watch you, people who talk
shit about candy corn let my chewy little triangle weirdos live.
(35:55):
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,
our producers are alex Azzie Grace, Lynch, Taylor Williamson, and
Lucy Jones. Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,
Jennie Kaplan and Emily Rutterer. Our editors are Emily Rutter,
(36:17):
Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer. Production assistants from Avery Loftus
and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain
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