May 12, 2026 • 39 mins
Despite its massive popularity, the culture of NASCAR has shifted -- from banning the Confederate flag at races to settling an antitrust lawsuit. Kal sits down with legendary NASCAR driver Bubba Wallace, who just celebrated his first "crown jewel" victory. How is the sport evolving? How has it stayed the same? And, what's next?
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Imagine it's the nineteen twenties, before the stock market crashed,
before highways cut through the South, before drinking alcohol was legal.
But people were doing it anyway. If you wanted booze
and Appalachia. It was not arriving quietly. It came barreling
down back roads in small, fast cars driven by people
(00:22):
who were always cutting corners with ingenuity. Bootleggers were a
different kind of uber eats. They were engineers, making their
cars run faster, hold heavier, and always carry an element
of surprise. Some drivers rigged their vehicles to drop oil,
nails or clouds of smoke if the police got too close,
sort of like those old cartoons. Years after prohibition ended,
(00:46):
those same drivers raced each other for pride, for money,
and for bragging rights. That's the part most people forget.
Those same bootleggers and moonshiners became some of the first
competitors of NASCAR.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
So I'm running, I'm chasing down the twenty two. I
get within a couple of carlinks from him. He has
a tire issue. I'm like, okay, so I inherit the lead.
You know, I'm thinking we got fifty sixty laps left. Freddy,
my spotter, comes over and he's like, all right, new leader,
twenty laps to go, and I'm like, oh shit, we're
(01:21):
getting down to it. I thought we had another pit stop,
and so I'm like, oh, I actually gotta wake up
and try.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Today, I'm sitting down with legendary NASCAR driver Bubba Wallace,
who just celebrated his first Crown Jewel victory that was
in July twenty twenty five at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
What I admire about Bubba is he's also been on
the forefront of changing the culture of NASCAR. He's helped
ban the Confederate flag from all NASCARS races in twenty
(01:49):
twenty and his team twenty three eleven Racing, which is
partially owned by Michael Jordan, just settled an antitrust lawsuit
against NASCAR, and he's here to help me understand how
the sport has evolved. Here we Go aon. Hey, I'm
cal Pen and this is Here we Go Again, a
(02:11):
show that takes today's trends and headlines and asks why
does history keep repeating itself?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Here Lee go, hold on, Let's try to get hello.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, Hey there, there you go.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Nice so you know this because we've known each other
for a while. But I did not grow up a
NASCAR fan. So this is also for our listeners who
might be wondering why I wanted to do a NASCAR episode.
I've been a fan for almost fifteen years. My fiance
Josh grew up a huge NASCAR fan in Mississippi, and
so when he and I started dating, that's what really
got me, yeah to the sport, and it was it
(03:02):
was the combination of like it was obviously the fast
car thing, but it was science and engineering and then
all of the drama between drivers and teams, right right, right,
So for listeners who don't know what, what's your first
memory of jumping into a car and putting your foot
in thegether? Because you were like nine?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Right, yeah, yeah, I saw the reason I was nine.
My first memory, I mean, I remember my first race.
It was the National Event. I was we're gonna do this,
We're gonna do it big. So we went to the
National Event down in Jasper, Florida. I remember getting into
a wreck and the track was raised up so like
if you ran off track, you'd go down like a
(03:40):
four foot drop, like an embankment. You know, and I've
shipped it off of turn two or turned for one
of them, and I just remember like an old Chevy
Suburban sitting there, and I thought I was gonna smoke it, right,
and I'm like, oh my god, I'm about to have
my dad's gonna have to pay for this car. And
(04:00):
so like I brace for impact and I come to
like this really really soft like impact right, Like it
just kind of a sponge and I was like, my
life right, And I realized there was a fence. I
couldn't see the fence in between myself and the car,
So yeah, that was nice. And then I remember asking
my dad if we could fix it and get back
(04:21):
out there, and he said later on like he's like, okay,
he's hooked. If I didn't get, you know, spooked by
that crash and asked to get back out there, then
we'll probably be in this for the long haul. And
here we are twenty three years later.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
So jumping from that to when your career took off,
do you have a moment or a year that you
consider like, hey, I'm like doing this, doing this, It's
starting to pay off.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I would say the story I always go to is
twenty eleven, we were running in the kN N series,
the Arkha Minards East Series. Now we were at Dover
last races season qualified on the pole. Was sitting there
on the grid and I was just like, you know,
you have that minute or two for the pace car
(05:08):
rolls and you're just you know, making sure everything's in check.
And it was just like, man, this is a pretty
cool gig. I'm having fun. You know, this would be
cool to keep doing. Not that I had conversations of
doing anything different. We went on to win the race,
so it was like, all right, that kind of solidified
my my my thoughts there, and so yeah, that was
(05:29):
what twell. No, fifteen years ago, eh, fifteen years ago,
that was that moment.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
So hold were you you were like fifteen or sixteen?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Right?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I was born in ninety three, So ninety three to
twenty eleven. I'll let you do the math.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I don't do it that way.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Holder, you know, I'm thirty two.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Okay, Yeah, so you were like sixteen ish?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Sure, Yeah, fifteen to seventeen is what I'll say. I'm
an actor for a reason. I do not do basic bad.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I mean, by the way, first of all, if you're
if you're that young, if you're like smoking older guys,
are people mad or are they kind of in all that,
like there's here's this younger guy with this talent.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
You had both sides of the fence, right, You had
the people that hated that you were winning, you know,
like there's no way that this is legal. I mean
we were protested a lot of times because we were winning,
and then you had other people that you know, just
kind of accepted it, like, man, this kid's good. And
I remember doing a late Model test. This was two
(06:28):
thousand and eight and we were on the coast of
North Carolina. But he came up to us after the
after the test was done, and he was like, if
you race how you just tested, you guys are going
to be fast. And we went back there. I think
we finished third or fourth. It was it was a
good night and for the first time being there, it
was it was a good night for us. And so, yeah,
you have people on both sides.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
So this is like not that dissimilar to like when
I was nominated for an Emmy, it was like a
kid's It was like in the kids category because I
did a Santa Claus TV show and I think there
was like one child who was also nominated, and like
that fucking kid better not win this, Emmy, this child
has her whole career.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, yeah, I don't do that.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I mean I didn't get it anybody. I think some
other adult won it. I didn't feel proud about that feeling.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
You all have that. You know, jealousy is within all
of our minds, right, and it's just a matter of
when that comes out.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, fair when you were I mean, I would say
a kid, but really, if you're like you're winning races,
you're you're a younger athlete. How much did you know
about the history of NASCAR? I get the for our
intro for this, we just did a little quick quick
thing on like the connection to like Bootleggers, which I'm fascinated.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, no, I didn't know much. I remember so in
twenty ten and we did a like a reality competition
show on BT all changing Lanes. That's kind of where
my name kind of skyrocketed was from that. We were
competitive and yeah, it was all like you know, documented
(08:02):
and stuff, and so I remember them giving us like
a NASCAR one oh one, like you know, when a
NASCAR starred, and I was like two thousand and one.
I don't know, you know now it's it's you know,
we're I think this is what seventy six was. This
last year seventy five, I think, so we're like seventy five,
seventy six, seventy seven years old now the sport it's right,
(08:23):
and it's crazy to think about. You know, I still
go to winning at Indie right last year. Yep, that's
just a massive win for us. That's a massive win
for me because I was almost three years winless. I
not in a negative way at all. I'm not downplaying
the history or the previous winners, but it doesn't matter
(08:43):
to me. I don't care. Like it's just something I've
never really paid attention to. Like the history of things
is just like all right, I appreciate it, but I
don't go out of my way to study these things
and becoming all of them. That's just not who I am.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
That makes sense. In doing that show, were there things
you learned that you were kind of like like into
the idea of Like, for example, whenever you shoot something
in the studio in La Fox, Disney, Warner Brothers, they
all have these little plaques outside of like let's say,
you're in like stage seventeen and it has every show
(09:17):
or movie that was shot on that stage since like
the late twenties. Yeah, and so you're not thinking that
when you come in. You're just like, I'm making my
dick jokes today, here's my script. But then you see
you see that, You're like, oh, wow, Mary Poppins was here.
That's crazy, or so you know something like that, Right.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I have those moments too, like when we do you know,
shoots out there, or even like you know the you
know Today Show or Good Morning America. When you see
the people that have signed the wall and stuff, it's like, oh,
that's cool. You know they were just here before me
or whatnot. And I appreciate that stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
In the moment last July, I would I just want
to I want to ask you about the Brickyard four
hundred and for the listeners, for anyone who doesn't know
that Brickyard four hundred is one of the most prestigious
races in NASCAR.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It's up there with the Daytona five hundred. It's a
four hundred mile race. It's one hundred and sixty laps long.
Drivers can be driving for two and a half three
hours and it's a track that's known for being extremely tricky,
so to win it you can't just have raw speed.
You have to drive with a certain level of precision
and strategy. But also like in context of your team,
(10:26):
right July twenty twenty five, really tough competition in that race,
Kyle Larson, a whole bunch of others. You take the win,
and like, what goes into what do the men and
women do on your team? For somebody who doesn't know
what goes into winning a race like that? Can you
can you walk us through that specific race?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah? So Indy, for whatever reason, on this schedule is
a full weekend. And what I mean by that now
so ever, since COVID came about, right, we took a
lot of pride in being the first sport back. I
remember we were heading to Atlanta to race the second
race of the season and that's when everything went downhill
and we COVID happened, right, So two months later we
(11:11):
get the call. I was like, all right, Wednesday, whatever
the date was, racing in Darlington, no fans, no practice,
no qualifying, going straight into the race, and we did
that the rest of the season, no practice, no qualifying,
just show up and race. And so once COVID protocols
got lifted, we need some practice. You gotta have qualifying.
(11:31):
We got to bring that back, but it condensed the schedule.
Pre COVID was you fly out Thursday, you practice on Friday,
you qualify Saturday morning, you practice again Saturday afternoon. You
get three rounds of practice total, and then you go
race on Sunday. Well, now from that point to going
through COVID learning how to condense the schedule. Now all
(11:56):
but four or five races out out of thirty six
thirty eight, we have twenty minutes of practice followed by
qualifying immediately and then go into the race. So back
to the brickyard. For whatever reason, it has a full weekend.
We go back to a fifty minute practice on Friday,
and then Saturday is just qualifying only, and then we
(12:19):
go race fifty minutes. From twenty minutes is like a
lot of time. It's like, oh my god, it's and
it's completely open. You can do whatever you want to
the car. So anyways, Indy, full weekend, we feel good
about our car. Practice went really well. Qualifying, we qualified second,
super close. The race was just kind of another race.
(12:43):
We were top five to ten all day, and I
remember our pit stop the last one, and we came
out behind the twenty two car, and I was told
throughout the pit cycle like, hey, you're going to shake
out to be second here, and I'm like, oh sweet.
We think we were running maybe fifth, fifth to seventh
(13:06):
at that time. Okay, So we jumped some guys and
so I'm running. I'm chasing down the twenty two. I
get within a couple of carlinks from him and he
has a tire issue. I'm like, okay, so I inherit
the lead, right, So I'm like, cool, we got a
long way to go, you know, I'm thinking we got
(13:28):
fifty sixty laps left. Freddy, my spotter, comes over and
he's like, all right, new leader, you know, twenty laps
to go. And I'm like, oh shit, oh, like we're
getting down to it. I thought we had another pit stop,
you know, and so I'm like, oh, I actually got
to wake up and try. Okay, So at that point
(13:48):
I think we had five second lead something like that. Anyways,
we're going in Larson's coming and they're talking about rain
and I'm like, you know, people that I don't know.
My first win at Talladega in twenty twenty one was
rain shortened, and fans still love to count that as
(14:08):
not official, but that's okay. The paycheck hit like it
was official. My name's in the history books, like it's official. Anyways.
So rain came with six to go, and it was
just like, go figure. At this point, we're already past
the official distance. So if it continued rain, they could
call it. We would win again. And so part of
(14:30):
me was like, oh my god, if this happens again,
where the rain, the race gets shortened, people are going
to lose their minds. But then the other side I
was like, you know what, I wanted to stop raining
and it only rained for like five minutes. I want
to go back and earn this thing the right way,
and we were able to do that. We had two
green white checkers back to back, and we were super
(14:51):
close on fuel, like that was our biggest worry. I remember.
I remember Charles and once we got back going after
the red flag for rain, my crew chief he was like,
all right, we got enough fuel for one. We can
do one. If another caution comes out, we need to
come and pit. So we fire off the first one
and we get halfway down the backstretch, yellow comes out
(15:12):
and it's like, all right, that was our first one.
So he was like, stay out, We're staying out. We're
gambling here throughout this whole time. Right, I'm like, man,
it's too good not to happen. You know, all the
stars are aligned. I was not freaking out of a fuel,
you know. I am a If it happens, it happens.
(15:34):
If it doesn't, it doesn't, Oh well. So I was
not wasting my time wondering if we had enough fuel.
I was just gonna do the exact same thing I
did the previously start and get it again had enough fuel.
Come to find out, we had enough fuel for maybe
another lap and a half. So so yeah, it was
it was a damn good day.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
That's amazing. You kind of organically touched on something I
was going to ask you about in two different ways.
So since you've been in the sports, there have been
changes to the rules, and for people who don't know,
NASCAR isn't your I guess i'd say traditional sports league
(16:15):
in the sense that it's not like the NFL or
Major League Baseball, where teams collectively vote on major decisions.
NASCAR was created by this guy, Bill Frantz back in
nineteen forty seven, and to this day the France family
still owns it, which means that the sport can change,
and it does change its rules much more quickly and
(16:37):
maybe more often. Recently, NASCAR changed who qualified to compete
in the championship races because they wanted to attract more fans.
But one of the criticisms of that was that for
some people it backfired. Right, Instead, it created the system
that was confusing to some people. It upsets some of
the fans, and then also they felt like, well, when
(16:58):
they were going to watch a champion race, they weren't
like watching the best drivers compete like they were previously.
So all of it just to say, can you talk
about with the biggest mostly like what is the biggest
rule difference today? But then also what are the biggest
cultural differences today? So maybe both of us together, you know,
compared to like maybe five or ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, I would say, I mean the rules are always
constantly changing, right, you know, we'll be thrown a rules
package change. We could be thrown that today to figure
it out for this coming race in Phoenix, Right, they
try to give us a heads up, but like for
more safety reasons, they will implement a change if they
see need fit right, you know, immediately. But you know,
(17:41):
things evolve, so like the rules and stuff, you know.
I think the biggest one coming out of last year
to this year is probably like the way that the
championship format is now. So for the last ten years,
we've had a playoff system very similar to other sports.
We'd have the last ten races of the season. The
championship contending field was set right, you had your top
(18:03):
sixteen guys and those top sixteen would go for race
for ten races. Every three races, four drivers would get eliminated,
and then when you got to the last race, your
final four was there. There was a lot of controversy
with that because you had your playoff points and then
you had regular season points. So I was you know,
let's call it eighth in the playoff standings, but then
(18:26):
regular season points I was twelve, and so it got
confusing for a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
So fast forward to this year and where we're at now,
they've kind of revamped it and gone back to somewhat
of an older format, the chase, where again it's the
last ten races, but the top sixteen in points is
your field sounds very similar. But you had guys that
were twenty fifth, twentieth to twenty fifth in points in
(18:54):
prior years. They would win and get into the playoffs. Okay.
Now doesn't matter how many wins you have, you have
to be top sixteen points. There is no more whin
and you're locked in. Okay. So it's a little bit
easier to understand. And so that's probably the biggest rule change,
(19:14):
and that's that's very base level. You know that I
touched on it there, and so a lot of people
are on the fence about it, you know, and I
get asked it's been the hot topic since we are,
you know, just starting our season off. They're like, you know,
what do you think about it? I've always been on
the quiet side because I look at it as I
am hired to go out and raise thirty eight times
(19:36):
out of the year, whatever format it may be. I
have a job to do right and I knew that
going into it. So who am I to have an
opinion on? Well, I don't think it's fair when a
B or C driver wins, and I don't like, no,
they want they beat me and I got to be better.
(19:57):
That was always my take on it.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, that's what I feel like. Rule change grumbling is
more popular with fans because because of like, like you,
let's say you're you know, let's say you're a you're
a legacy fan family and you've been, you know, coming
races with your grandpa. You probably don't want things to
change because it reminds you a little less of what
it was like being ten years old, right. Yeah, Like,
(20:20):
as a NASCAR fan, I always feel like I'm explaining
to other like blue state lefties who live in New
York or LA, and they're like, why do you like Nascar?
Isn't it all?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
You know?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And then they fill in their stereotypes and I spend
a lot of time going no, I mean, okay, some
of the stereotypes are not untrue, but a lot of
what you said is also not true. And I fight
that battle a little bit, or at least I did
until kind of you know, twenty twenty and your role
in being vocal about this stuff, and I had a
(20:49):
lot more friends reach out to me and say, oh, okay,
I see what you were talking about in terms of
inclusion in the sport and why you've always felt that
it was inclusive, and you've been to races despite what
it might look like. So I just think it's amazing
that we're seeing this now, right, especially because NASCAR has
a cultural lineage that I think it's fair to say
(21:11):
it comes from the deep segregated South. Some of its
first races happened in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Virginia,
and fans would bring the Confederate flag because many of
the white fans back in the day saw it as
an expression of their regional identity and some still do today.
And even though NASCAR never officially adopted it, it did become,
(21:34):
you know, a culturally acceptable thing for the flag to
be there. I've certainly seen it myself. There's been this
back and forth controversy about the presence of the Confederate
flag for decades, but the point is nobody really did
anything about it until you, you know, there was no
enforcement to ban the flag. You stood up in twenty
twenty after the murder of George Floyd, you wore a
(21:55):
Black Lives Matter shirt, had it painted on the side
of your car. It was variance by to people like
me to see this part of the campaign to end
the waving of Confederate flags at races was with you,
can you walk me through that particular moment in time
and at what point you really decided to take on
that level of institutional change.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, so that was you know what a man, it's
crazy that twenty twenty was already six years ago. Well, no,
it's right, and we all of us were at such
a vulnerable place, you know, going through COVID like that
was my first pandemic, Like this is legit, do not
(22:37):
go outside, Like this is horror movie stuff, right, you know,
like twenty eight days later type stuff, you know, yeah, yeah,
and it's like okay, And so then you see all
this stuff going on social injustice and all this, and
it's just like, man, like, what's happening to the world
we live in the country we live in. And I
(23:00):
felt a role because, you know, ever since I've been
in this sport, I'm always asked, you know, the black driver.
This the black driver that I just recently deleted in
the last couple of years, because it it since twenty twenty,
the whole perception of Bubba Wallace changed, right, you know,
(23:24):
we'll call it glass half full, glass half empty, fifty
to fifty fifty percent people don't like me. Now fifty
percent support me, one hundred percent right. And it took
me so long to you know, accept that, because prior
to that, it was maybe seventy five percent people like me,
eighty percent people like me. And when I stood up
(23:47):
for what I thought was right, and I still believe
that it was right. No one's going to change my
opinion on that. It just kind of true. Colors of
people kind of came about, you know, even close you know,
friends of mine, family, you know, they were just like,
what's happening here, and it's just like, I'm human, That's
what's happening, right, And so yeah, I felt a responsibility
(24:09):
and going back ever since, you know, been thrown into
the spotlight. It's the black driver, this black driver. That night,
what I talk about deleting was a tweet that I had.
I remember doing an interview. This was twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,
and the headlines said black driver blah blah blah blah,
and not not in the derogatory way, but it just
(24:29):
labeled me as a black driver. And my eighty percent
fans that liked me were all that all just like
why is it always the black Driver, Like he's just bubblah,
And I'm like I agree. So my tweet was, hey, guys, look,
I'm the only one the top level. That's basically what
(24:50):
the media needs to write about to get their views,
Like you're not going to stop hearing in the Black Driver,
Like I'm okay with it. You should be okay with
it too. Yes, I'm tired of hearing it. I hear you.
I'm with you. But it's okay. And people loved it
when twenty twenty all that stuff happened. See, look, Bubba's
eracist himself. All he cares about is his skin color,
(25:12):
and he labels himself as a black Driver, and it's like,
holy shit, that's not what I was saying at all.
This tweet was from at this time three or four
years ago, saying like, hey, bear with us, it's going
to be a long time before you stop hearing about it,
you know, And it's okay. And so that happened, but
and it was okay, and I continue to see that
(25:34):
it just caused more more chaos and turmoil than it was.
Just like trying to let people be at peace with it.
So I removed it because I was tired of defending myself.
And yeah, I wore the Black Lives Matter Sure, because
I am biracial. A lot of people think that, you know,
(25:55):
I only care about my black side and I don't
care about my white side. That couldn't be any further
from the truth. I've gone through a lot of shit
in my life, you know, parents getting divorced, that was
probably the hardest thing I've gone through. And I've always
tried to remain middle of the road on all of that,
and I've always tried to just be a good human.
(26:19):
That's how I am with my race, right, Like, yes,
I am fifty and fifty, and so you're not going
to see me lean into one other side more so
than other and disrespect one side more, you know than another.
Like no, I love who I am. I love my parents,
and but people don't realize that, you know, I do
(26:41):
have a little bit more skin tone than let's say,
Ryan Blaney. You know, I didn't mean to pick probably
the whitest dude in the garage, but just so yeah, yeah, yeah,
but you know, we are labeled first as a black driver.
You know, media is not saying the biracial kid, they're
not saying that they're they're yeah, you know, and it's
(27:03):
like that would help maybe, but that's just that's just
how the world is.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I mean, I don't even know if that I feel
like that context would would if if somebody is obsessed
is like obsessed with your identity, They're always going to
be obsessed with your identity. The things that I found
more impressive about the departure from that is like we
live in a world where people don't really talk to
each other anymore if they disagree about something, Like I
always say, like I love you know, I love getting
(27:29):
like four beers with my very conservative friends and just
talking because nobody does that I should not have seven
beers with them because that's when you start fighting. But
but you, like I was, I think I and a
lot of people are very impressed that, like, you know,
in a world where people don't talk to each other,
you called for NASCAR to band the Confederate flag. NASCAR agreed,
(27:50):
Like what were what were those private conversations?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Like yeah, I mean it was you know that that
wasn't in a private conversation. That was business that I did. Yeah, yeah,
you know, And I'm saying like that wasn't I just
if you don't know me, and a lot of people
that probably listen to your podcasts don't know me, that
I don't really hold back. You know, if if if
it's the right day and it's the right temperature outside,
(28:14):
and you ask me the right question, You're going to
get an answer. And that just you know, I seen
a lot of tweets after the George Floyd stuff where
I stood up for what I believed in, and on
the after American side, the afric American community was like, yeah,
I don't know if I'll ever be a part of
NASCAR because you know, we ride by the racetracks and
(28:35):
there's Confederate flags. You see it in all the videos.
You know, they represent it, and that's something that that
hurts us. That's that brings a lot of hurt and
pain to our ancestors. And I'm like, you know, I've
never paid attention that go back to what we talked
about earlier, the history. Yeah, never never looked at it. Yeah,
there was hundreds of Confederate flags in the garad. I
(28:57):
did not pay attention to it. You know, that's not
me being politically correct, right, I didn't give a damn
no that.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I mean, that's fascinating for fans who maybe did know
the history because NASCAR was founded by Bill Frantz, who
supported Governor Wallace, who was pro Jim Crow. So if
you don't, if you know the history of the sport,
you've never been to a race and you're seeing Confederate
flags when you drive by, I can definitely understand why
they might be like, mister Wallace, what's the deal?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Right? And so I was asked, you know, an interview,
and I was like, you know, I think a good
move to continue to move the needle for our sport.
We talk about how do we change the demographic. I've
been asked that question for so many years. Yeah, and
that seemed like low hanging fruit. It's like, hey, we
have a whole demographic here that is eager to come
out to a race, but a symbol, a flag is
(29:47):
keeping them back, a symbol of hatred. And we're going
to go, you know, to the end of time arguing
that it's heritage over eight. But you have to put
yourself in everybody else's shoes. I have no problem doing that,
but some people don't, and they hang on to the
heritage and It's tough because you know, you can't please everybody,
(30:13):
but I thought that was a massive moment for us
in our sport too, officially get rid of it. And
what's crazy is Dale Junior called four years prior, you know, man,
that was not a big deal when he asked for it.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I think you're right. I think the majority of people
listening would not have had exposure to NASCAR before, and
so even just hearing this would floor a lot of people.
What do you mean even the heritage over hate conversation
that they might not even be exposed to, Like I
can say as a fan of the sport, even when
the flag was there, it was very surreal because if
(30:55):
you grow up outside of New York City, like to me,
the most racist place I've ever lived was Los Angeles,
and part of that's probably because I was just one
of the few people of color in the film industry
twenty years ago. But there hasn't been a more welcome place.
Let me rephrase that the top ten most welcome places.
I would put a NASCAR track in that list in
terms of what it feels like, but then you the
(31:16):
visual dichotomy of that is not at all that right.
If I took a picture of this place that I
feel welcome. Yeah, yeah, it'd be like, oh, yes, there's
no way that you So I feel like you're right
about and you know, Dale obviously was right. But if
these symbols are are restricting people from this, it's got
(31:37):
to go. One thing I want to ask you about
is this lawsuit that you and your team just came
out of with NASCAR. So back in twenty twenty four,
your team twenty three eleven Racing, which is owned by
Michael Jordan, Denny Hamlin, and Curtis Poke, and another team
for Remoter Sports, filed an antitrust lawsuit against NASCAR, which
(31:58):
is of course owned by the original France family, and
the lawsuit accused NASCAR of a couple of things, maintaining
a monopoly over premier stock car racing and abusing that
power using a non transparent revenue sharing model that kept
teams dependent and unprofitable, retaliating against twenty three to eleven
and front Row Motorsports for refusing to sign an agreement
(32:21):
between the teams and NASCAR called the New Charter Deal. Now,
this lawsuit was a huge deal because it was the
first serious challenge to the France family's control over NASCAR,
and it put them at risk of losing hundreds of
millions of dollars. I texted you after the verdict or
after the settlement because I knew. I'm like, I know,
(32:43):
I can't text you in the middle being like I
hope you guys win, like, because then you can't even
like heart that text. You're like not a lot, right.
But so for people who don't know, what can you
tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah? So it's funny now, like every time we were
asked this throughout the season last year, our PR people
were just like, don't say a word, you know, rightfully,
so because whatever we could say, could you know, uh,
you know, damage our reputation and whatnot, and heard our
chances in court, and so man, it was so easy
(33:15):
for me to not give a damn about it. Again
goes back to if it's meant to be, it's meant
to be. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. If
it doesn't, okay, I'll go find a new job, okay.
And so I don't know all of the details because
again I did not give a damn. Yes, it affected
(33:37):
my livelihood. How can someone not give a damn if
it affects I don't. That's ask how I am. I
am programmed. It's weird. I'm I'm a one of one.
I'm sorry, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
It's actually very jealous of this trait thing you have.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
But they they being MJ and Curtis polk And and
Denny Hamlin, they seen things that the work continue to
do that I would say that didn't allow growth, and
they wanted change. They wanted change when they came into
(34:11):
the sport and it was time for new charter agreements
and they seen an opportunity to create said change, and
they were going to do whatever it takes to get
that change. And if it meant suing the sanctioning body,
then so be it. But they're going to stand up
and put everything on the line for their people, our
partners and the other teams, right, I mean, it's crazy
(34:35):
to think that, you know it, Two of us twenty
three eleven in front Row Motorsports were the only two
teams to stand up to NASCAR, and the other teams
were just like, hey, we don't want to be a
part of this. We love where everything's at. And then
when when the settlement happened. They're like, oh man, this
is great. It's like, yeah, yeah, I didn't do yeah right, yeah,
(34:56):
you know, thanks for the handout. And so going back
to when the team started, you know, we wanted to
be different, we wanted to bring in a change of culture.
And you know, you say those things for me, I
say those things, and you know I have some thoughts
on you know, you know what I think. I have
no idea what charter agreements are. I have no idea
(35:19):
all that stuff that the business owners see, right, And
it makes me proud and brings me a lot of
joy that I will risk anything to create change, you
know when I see it need fit and you have
leadership and ownership that will do the same thing in
a much higher magnitude, and it, you know, makes that
(35:40):
relationship I feel more solidified than anything. I remember being
in Mexico in the off seasons, Amanda and I and
my give a damn meter ramped up a little bit
because I wasn't racing. It was the off season, so
all we had to pay attention to was the hearing.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
So I was tuning in and we were going through
day four, Day five, and I was on the golf
course and my spotter, Freddy, he had texted me like, well,
it looks like we got a job for the next
couple of years. And I was like, what are you
talking about? And he was like, they just settled. And
I got chills as soon as I seen that text.
And I didn't even know it's confirmed or not. I
(36:19):
was so pumped for our leadership. Obviously, MJ is a
massive fan of the sport Denny. Everybody knows Denny h
Curtis Polk though is Is is MJ's right hand man,
and just seeing the amount of satisfaction and joy that
Curtis Polk had was just incredible to see and it
(36:41):
brought me a lot of joy, and you know, I
text him that and he just says it. It's nice
to feel vindicated, right, you know, to you know, to
know that you risk everything for something positive and to
see it come out on the right end as just
a win for everybody. So I don't know all the
details of after the fact, yeah, of what's exactly going
to change, but I've seen an interview with O'Donnell, the
(37:05):
president of NASCAR, and he talked about MJ after you know,
winning Atlanta, and he was like, you know, the tough
conversations you know have to happen sometimes, right, but the
impact that MJ brings to our sport. You know, the
things that our team is doing. You know Tyler Redick
is at this time. I know this will be aired later,
but you know he's three for three to start the season.
(37:27):
It's crazy, you know, the things that we are doing
to bring in a new face officially to our sport.
I couldn't be more proud of just being able to
play a small part or as some people say, riding
the coattails.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
More than riding the coat tails.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Literally drive, driving, driving.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Well, you got a you got a lot of love
for the team and obviously for for for you guys.
And if you're listening to this you've've never been to
a race, highly recommend it. I'm all biased here, but
it'll be a great weekend. I very much recommend it
wherever you are in the cunt. These guys have like
the long aren't you the longest season eventing sport?
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah? Yes, Valentine's Day through the first weekend of November.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
It's crazy. Bubba Wallace, thank you for joining me, man,
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Nice to see you absolutely nice to see you. Appreciate you, guys.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
That was my guest, Bubba Wallace. He's a professional NASCAR
driver and the winner of three races in the NASCAR
Cup Series. Here we Go Again as a production of
iHeart Podcasts and Snaffoo Media in association with New Metric Media.
Our executive producers are me Kal Penn, Ed Helms, Mike Falbo,
Alissa Martino, Andy Kim, Pat Kelly, Chris Kelly, and Dylan Fagan.
(38:40):
Meghan tan is our producer and writer. Dave Shumka is
our producer and editor. Our consulting producer is Romin Borsolino.
Tory Smith is our associate producer. Theme music by Chris Kelly,
logo by Matt Gosson, Legal review from Daniel Welsh, Caroline
Johnson and Megan Halson. Special thanks to Glenn Basner, Isaac Dunham,
Adam Horn, Lane Kline and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but
(39:03):
especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman and Nikki Etor. Thanks for listening. Everybody,
tell your friends write a review. All of this helps.
I appreciate you listening, and until we Go Again, I'm
Kel Penn
Imagine it's the nineteen twenties, before the stock market crashed,
before highways cut through the South, before drinking alcohol was legal.
But people were doing it anyway. If you wanted booze
and Appalachia. It was not arriving quietly. It came barreling
down back roads in small, fast cars driven by people
(00:22):
who were always cutting corners with ingenuity. Bootleggers were a
different kind of uber eats. They were engineers, making their
cars run faster, hold heavier, and always carry an element
of surprise. Some drivers rigged their vehicles to drop oil,
nails or clouds of smoke if the police got too close,
sort of like those old cartoons. Years after prohibition ended,
(00:46):
those same drivers raced each other for pride, for money,
and for bragging rights. That's the part most people forget.
Those same bootleggers and moonshiners became some of the first
competitors of NASCAR.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
So I'm running, I'm chasing down the twenty two. I
get within a couple of carlinks from him. He has
a tire issue. I'm like, okay, so I inherit the lead.
You know, I'm thinking we got fifty sixty laps left. Freddy,
my spotter, comes over and he's like, all right, new leader,
twenty laps to go, and I'm like, oh shit, we're
(01:21):
getting down to it. I thought we had another pit stop,
and so I'm like, oh, I actually gotta wake up
and try.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Today, I'm sitting down with legendary NASCAR driver Bubba Wallace,
who just celebrated his first Crown Jewel victory that was
in July twenty twenty five at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
What I admire about Bubba is he's also been on
the forefront of changing the culture of NASCAR. He's helped
ban the Confederate flag from all NASCARS races in twenty
(01:49):
twenty and his team twenty three eleven Racing, which is
partially owned by Michael Jordan, just settled an antitrust lawsuit
against NASCAR, and he's here to help me understand how
the sport has evolved. Here we Go aon. Hey, I'm
cal Pen and this is Here we Go Again, a
(02:11):
show that takes today's trends and headlines and asks why
does history keep repeating itself?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Here Lee go, hold on, Let's try to get hello.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, Hey there, there you go.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Nice so you know this because we've known each other
for a while. But I did not grow up a
NASCAR fan. So this is also for our listeners who
might be wondering why I wanted to do a NASCAR episode.
I've been a fan for almost fifteen years. My fiance
Josh grew up a huge NASCAR fan in Mississippi, and
so when he and I started dating, that's what really
got me, yeah to the sport, and it was it
(03:02):
was the combination of like it was obviously the fast
car thing, but it was science and engineering and then
all of the drama between drivers and teams, right right, right,
So for listeners who don't know what, what's your first
memory of jumping into a car and putting your foot
in thegether? Because you were like nine?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Right, yeah, yeah, I saw the reason I was nine.
My first memory, I mean, I remember my first race.
It was the National Event. I was we're gonna do this,
We're gonna do it big. So we went to the
National Event down in Jasper, Florida. I remember getting into
a wreck and the track was raised up so like
if you ran off track, you'd go down like a
(03:40):
four foot drop, like an embankment. You know, and I've
shipped it off of turn two or turned for one
of them, and I just remember like an old Chevy
Suburban sitting there, and I thought I was gonna smoke it, right,
and I'm like, oh my god, I'm about to have
my dad's gonna have to pay for this car. And
(04:00):
so like I brace for impact and I come to
like this really really soft like impact right, Like it
just kind of a sponge and I was like, my
life right, And I realized there was a fence. I
couldn't see the fence in between myself and the car,
So yeah, that was nice. And then I remember asking
my dad if we could fix it and get back
(04:21):
out there, and he said later on like he's like, okay,
he's hooked. If I didn't get, you know, spooked by
that crash and asked to get back out there, then
we'll probably be in this for the long haul. And
here we are twenty three years later.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
So jumping from that to when your career took off,
do you have a moment or a year that you
consider like, hey, I'm like doing this, doing this, It's
starting to pay off.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I would say the story I always go to is
twenty eleven, we were running in the kN N series,
the Arkha Minards East Series. Now we were at Dover
last races season qualified on the pole. Was sitting there
on the grid and I was just like, you know,
you have that minute or two for the pace car
(05:08):
rolls and you're just you know, making sure everything's in check.
And it was just like, man, this is a pretty
cool gig. I'm having fun. You know, this would be
cool to keep doing. Not that I had conversations of
doing anything different. We went on to win the race,
so it was like, all right, that kind of solidified
my my my thoughts there, and so yeah, that was
(05:29):
what twell. No, fifteen years ago, eh, fifteen years ago,
that was that moment.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
So hold were you you were like fifteen or sixteen?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Right?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I was born in ninety three, So ninety three to
twenty eleven. I'll let you do the math.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I don't do it that way.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Holder, you know, I'm thirty two.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Okay, Yeah, so you were like sixteen ish?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Sure, Yeah, fifteen to seventeen is what I'll say. I'm
an actor for a reason. I do not do basic bad.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I mean, by the way, first of all, if you're
if you're that young, if you're like smoking older guys,
are people mad or are they kind of in all that,
like there's here's this younger guy with this talent.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
You had both sides of the fence, right, You had
the people that hated that you were winning, you know,
like there's no way that this is legal. I mean
we were protested a lot of times because we were winning,
and then you had other people that you know, just
kind of accepted it, like, man, this kid's good. And
I remember doing a late Model test. This was two
(06:28):
thousand and eight and we were on the coast of
North Carolina. But he came up to us after the
after the test was done, and he was like, if
you race how you just tested, you guys are going
to be fast. And we went back there. I think
we finished third or fourth. It was it was a
good night and for the first time being there, it
was it was a good night for us. And so, yeah,
you have people on both sides.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
So this is like not that dissimilar to like when
I was nominated for an Emmy, it was like a
kid's It was like in the kids category because I
did a Santa Claus TV show and I think there
was like one child who was also nominated, and like
that fucking kid better not win this, Emmy, this child
has her whole career.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Yeah, yeah, I don't do that.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I mean I didn't get it anybody. I think some
other adult won it. I didn't feel proud about that feeling.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
You all have that. You know, jealousy is within all
of our minds, right, and it's just a matter of
when that comes out.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, fair when you were I mean, I would say
a kid, but really, if you're like you're winning races,
you're you're a younger athlete. How much did you know
about the history of NASCAR? I get the for our
intro for this, we just did a little quick quick
thing on like the connection to like Bootleggers, which I'm fascinated.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah, no, I didn't know much. I remember so in
twenty ten and we did a like a reality competition
show on BT all changing Lanes. That's kind of where
my name kind of skyrocketed was from that. We were
competitive and yeah, it was all like you know, documented
(08:02):
and stuff, and so I remember them giving us like
a NASCAR one oh one, like you know, when a
NASCAR starred, and I was like two thousand and one.
I don't know, you know now it's it's you know,
we're I think this is what seventy six was. This
last year seventy five, I think, so we're like seventy five,
seventy six, seventy seven years old now the sport it's right,
(08:23):
and it's crazy to think about. You know, I still
go to winning at Indie right last year. Yep, that's
just a massive win for us. That's a massive win
for me because I was almost three years winless. I
not in a negative way at all. I'm not downplaying
the history or the previous winners, but it doesn't matter
(08:43):
to me. I don't care. Like it's just something I've
never really paid attention to. Like the history of things
is just like all right, I appreciate it, but I
don't go out of my way to study these things
and becoming all of them. That's just not who I am.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
That makes sense. In doing that show, were there things
you learned that you were kind of like like into
the idea of Like, for example, whenever you shoot something
in the studio in La Fox, Disney, Warner Brothers, they
all have these little plaques outside of like let's say,
you're in like stage seventeen and it has every show
(09:17):
or movie that was shot on that stage since like
the late twenties. Yeah, and so you're not thinking that
when you come in. You're just like, I'm making my
dick jokes today, here's my script. But then you see
you see that, You're like, oh, wow, Mary Poppins was here.
That's crazy, or so you know something like that, Right.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I have those moments too, like when we do you know,
shoots out there, or even like you know the you
know Today Show or Good Morning America. When you see
the people that have signed the wall and stuff, it's like, oh,
that's cool. You know they were just here before me
or whatnot. And I appreciate that stuff.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
In the moment last July, I would I just want
to I want to ask you about the Brickyard four
hundred and for the listeners, for anyone who doesn't know
that Brickyard four hundred is one of the most prestigious
races in NASCAR.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It's up there with the Daytona five hundred. It's a
four hundred mile race. It's one hundred and sixty laps long.
Drivers can be driving for two and a half three
hours and it's a track that's known for being extremely tricky,
so to win it you can't just have raw speed.
You have to drive with a certain level of precision
and strategy. But also like in context of your team,
(10:26):
right July twenty twenty five, really tough competition in that race,
Kyle Larson, a whole bunch of others. You take the win,
and like, what goes into what do the men and
women do on your team? For somebody who doesn't know
what goes into winning a race like that? Can you
can you walk us through that specific race?
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah? So Indy, for whatever reason, on this schedule is
a full weekend. And what I mean by that now
so ever, since COVID came about, right, we took a
lot of pride in being the first sport back. I
remember we were heading to Atlanta to race the second
race of the season and that's when everything went downhill
and we COVID happened, right, So two months later we
(11:11):
get the call. I was like, all right, Wednesday, whatever
the date was, racing in Darlington, no fans, no practice,
no qualifying, going straight into the race, and we did
that the rest of the season, no practice, no qualifying,
just show up and race. And so once COVID protocols
got lifted, we need some practice. You gotta have qualifying.
(11:31):
We got to bring that back, but it condensed the schedule.
Pre COVID was you fly out Thursday, you practice on Friday,
you qualify Saturday morning, you practice again Saturday afternoon. You
get three rounds of practice total, and then you go
race on Sunday. Well, now from that point to going
through COVID learning how to condense the schedule. Now all
(11:56):
but four or five races out out of thirty six
thirty eight, we have twenty minutes of practice followed by
qualifying immediately and then go into the race. So back
to the brickyard. For whatever reason, it has a full weekend.
We go back to a fifty minute practice on Friday,
and then Saturday is just qualifying only, and then we
(12:19):
go race fifty minutes. From twenty minutes is like a
lot of time. It's like, oh my god, it's and
it's completely open. You can do whatever you want to
the car. So anyways, Indy, full weekend, we feel good
about our car. Practice went really well. Qualifying, we qualified second,
super close. The race was just kind of another race.
(12:43):
We were top five to ten all day, and I
remember our pit stop the last one, and we came
out behind the twenty two car, and I was told
throughout the pit cycle like, hey, you're going to shake
out to be second here, and I'm like, oh sweet.
We think we were running maybe fifth, fifth to seventh
(13:06):
at that time. Okay, So we jumped some guys and
so I'm running. I'm chasing down the twenty two. I
get within a couple of carlinks from him and he
has a tire issue. I'm like, okay, so I inherit
the lead, right, So I'm like, cool, we got a
long way to go, you know, I'm thinking we got
(13:28):
fifty sixty laps left. Freddy, my spotter, comes over and
he's like, all right, new leader, you know, twenty laps
to go. And I'm like, oh shit, oh, like we're
getting down to it. I thought we had another pit stop,
you know, and so I'm like, oh, I actually got
to wake up and try. Okay, So at that point
(13:48):
I think we had five second lead something like that. Anyways,
we're going in Larson's coming and they're talking about rain
and I'm like, you know, people that I don't know.
My first win at Talladega in twenty twenty one was
rain shortened, and fans still love to count that as
(14:08):
not official, but that's okay. The paycheck hit like it
was official. My name's in the history books, like it's official. Anyways.
So rain came with six to go, and it was
just like, go figure. At this point, we're already past
the official distance. So if it continued rain, they could
call it. We would win again. And so part of
(14:30):
me was like, oh my god, if this happens again,
where the rain, the race gets shortened, people are going
to lose their minds. But then the other side I
was like, you know what, I wanted to stop raining
and it only rained for like five minutes. I want
to go back and earn this thing the right way,
and we were able to do that. We had two
green white checkers back to back, and we were super
(14:51):
close on fuel, like that was our biggest worry. I remember.
I remember Charles and once we got back going after
the red flag for rain, my crew chief he was like,
all right, we got enough fuel for one. We can
do one. If another caution comes out, we need to
come and pit. So we fire off the first one
and we get halfway down the backstretch, yellow comes out
(15:12):
and it's like, all right, that was our first one.
So he was like, stay out, We're staying out. We're
gambling here throughout this whole time. Right, I'm like, man,
it's too good not to happen. You know, all the
stars are aligned. I was not freaking out of a fuel,
you know. I am a If it happens, it happens.
(15:34):
If it doesn't, it doesn't, Oh well. So I was
not wasting my time wondering if we had enough fuel.
I was just gonna do the exact same thing I
did the previously start and get it again had enough fuel.
Come to find out, we had enough fuel for maybe
another lap and a half. So so yeah, it was
it was a damn good day.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
That's amazing. You kind of organically touched on something I
was going to ask you about in two different ways.
So since you've been in the sports, there have been
changes to the rules, and for people who don't know,
NASCAR isn't your I guess i'd say traditional sports league
(16:15):
in the sense that it's not like the NFL or
Major League Baseball, where teams collectively vote on major decisions.
NASCAR was created by this guy, Bill Frantz back in
nineteen forty seven, and to this day the France family
still owns it, which means that the sport can change,
and it does change its rules much more quickly and
(16:37):
maybe more often. Recently, NASCAR changed who qualified to compete
in the championship races because they wanted to attract more fans.
But one of the criticisms of that was that for
some people it backfired. Right, Instead, it created the system
that was confusing to some people. It upsets some of
the fans, and then also they felt like, well, when
(16:58):
they were going to watch a champion race, they weren't
like watching the best drivers compete like they were previously.
So all of it just to say, can you talk
about with the biggest mostly like what is the biggest
rule difference today? But then also what are the biggest
cultural differences today? So maybe both of us together, you know,
compared to like maybe five or ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, I would say, I mean the rules are always
constantly changing, right, you know, we'll be thrown a rules
package change. We could be thrown that today to figure
it out for this coming race in Phoenix, Right, they
try to give us a heads up, but like for
more safety reasons, they will implement a change if they
see need fit right, you know, immediately. But you know,
(17:41):
things evolve, so like the rules and stuff, you know.
I think the biggest one coming out of last year
to this year is probably like the way that the
championship format is now. So for the last ten years,
we've had a playoff system very similar to other sports.
We'd have the last ten races of the season. The
championship contending field was set right, you had your top
(18:03):
sixteen guys and those top sixteen would go for race
for ten races. Every three races, four drivers would get eliminated,
and then when you got to the last race, your
final four was there. There was a lot of controversy
with that because you had your playoff points and then
you had regular season points. So I was you know,
let's call it eighth in the playoff standings, but then
(18:26):
regular season points I was twelve, and so it got
confusing for a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
So fast forward to this year and where we're at now,
they've kind of revamped it and gone back to somewhat
of an older format, the chase, where again it's the
last ten races, but the top sixteen in points is
your field sounds very similar. But you had guys that
were twenty fifth, twentieth to twenty fifth in points in
(18:54):
prior years. They would win and get into the playoffs. Okay.
Now doesn't matter how many wins you have, you have
to be top sixteen points. There is no more whin
and you're locked in. Okay. So it's a little bit
easier to understand. And so that's probably the biggest rule change,
(19:14):
and that's that's very base level. You know that I
touched on it there, and so a lot of people
are on the fence about it, you know, and I
get asked it's been the hot topic since we are,
you know, just starting our season off. They're like, you know,
what do you think about it? I've always been on
the quiet side because I look at it as I
am hired to go out and raise thirty eight times
(19:36):
out of the year, whatever format it may be. I
have a job to do right and I knew that
going into it. So who am I to have an
opinion on? Well, I don't think it's fair when a
B or C driver wins, and I don't like, no,
they want they beat me and I got to be better.
(19:57):
That was always my take on it.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, that's what I feel like. Rule change grumbling is
more popular with fans because because of like, like you,
let's say you're you know, let's say you're a you're
a legacy fan family and you've been, you know, coming
races with your grandpa. You probably don't want things to
change because it reminds you a little less of what
it was like being ten years old, right. Yeah, Like,
(20:20):
as a NASCAR fan, I always feel like I'm explaining
to other like blue state lefties who live in New
York or LA, and they're like, why do you like Nascar?
Isn't it all?
Speaker 3 (20:28):
You know?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And then they fill in their stereotypes and I spend
a lot of time going no, I mean, okay, some
of the stereotypes are not untrue, but a lot of
what you said is also not true. And I fight
that battle a little bit, or at least I did
until kind of you know, twenty twenty and your role
in being vocal about this stuff, and I had a
(20:49):
lot more friends reach out to me and say, oh, okay,
I see what you were talking about in terms of
inclusion in the sport and why you've always felt that
it was inclusive, and you've been to races despite what
it might look like. So I just think it's amazing
that we're seeing this now, right, especially because NASCAR has
a cultural lineage that I think it's fair to say
(21:11):
it comes from the deep segregated South. Some of its
first races happened in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Virginia,
and fans would bring the Confederate flag because many of
the white fans back in the day saw it as
an expression of their regional identity and some still do today.
And even though NASCAR never officially adopted it, it did become,
(21:34):
you know, a culturally acceptable thing for the flag to
be there. I've certainly seen it myself. There's been this
back and forth controversy about the presence of the Confederate
flag for decades, but the point is nobody really did
anything about it until you, you know, there was no
enforcement to ban the flag. You stood up in twenty
twenty after the murder of George Floyd, you wore a
(21:55):
Black Lives Matter shirt, had it painted on the side
of your car. It was variance by to people like
me to see this part of the campaign to end
the waving of Confederate flags at races was with you,
can you walk me through that particular moment in time
and at what point you really decided to take on
that level of institutional change.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yeah, so that was you know what a man, it's
crazy that twenty twenty was already six years ago. Well, no,
it's right, and we all of us were at such
a vulnerable place, you know, going through COVID like that
was my first pandemic, Like this is legit, do not
(22:37):
go outside, Like this is horror movie stuff, right, you know,
like twenty eight days later type stuff, you know, yeah, yeah,
and it's like okay, And so then you see all
this stuff going on social injustice and all this, and
it's just like, man, like, what's happening to the world
we live in the country we live in. And I
(23:00):
felt a role because, you know, ever since I've been
in this sport, I'm always asked, you know, the black driver.
This the black driver that I just recently deleted in
the last couple of years, because it it since twenty twenty,
the whole perception of Bubba Wallace changed, right, you know,
(23:24):
we'll call it glass half full, glass half empty, fifty
to fifty fifty percent people don't like me. Now fifty
percent support me, one hundred percent right. And it took
me so long to you know, accept that, because prior
to that, it was maybe seventy five percent people like me,
eighty percent people like me. And when I stood up
(23:47):
for what I thought was right, and I still believe
that it was right. No one's going to change my
opinion on that. It just kind of true. Colors of
people kind of came about, you know, even close you know,
friends of mine, family, you know, they were just like,
what's happening here, and it's just like, I'm human, That's
what's happening, right, And so yeah, I felt a responsibility
(24:09):
and going back ever since, you know, been thrown into
the spotlight. It's the black driver, this black driver. That night,
what I talk about deleting was a tweet that I had.
I remember doing an interview. This was twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen,
and the headlines said black driver blah blah blah blah,
and not not in the derogatory way, but it just
(24:29):
labeled me as a black driver. And my eighty percent
fans that liked me were all that all just like
why is it always the black Driver, Like he's just bubblah,
And I'm like I agree. So my tweet was, hey, guys, look,
I'm the only one the top level. That's basically what
(24:50):
the media needs to write about to get their views,
Like you're not going to stop hearing in the Black Driver,
Like I'm okay with it. You should be okay with
it too. Yes, I'm tired of hearing it. I hear you.
I'm with you. But it's okay. And people loved it
when twenty twenty all that stuff happened. See, look, Bubba's
eracist himself. All he cares about is his skin color,
(25:12):
and he labels himself as a black Driver, and it's like,
holy shit, that's not what I was saying at all.
This tweet was from at this time three or four
years ago, saying like, hey, bear with us, it's going
to be a long time before you stop hearing about it,
you know, And it's okay. And so that happened, but
and it was okay, and I continue to see that
(25:34):
it just caused more more chaos and turmoil than it was.
Just like trying to let people be at peace with it.
So I removed it because I was tired of defending myself.
And yeah, I wore the Black Lives Matter Sure, because
I am biracial. A lot of people think that, you know,
(25:55):
I only care about my black side and I don't
care about my white side. That couldn't be any further
from the truth. I've gone through a lot of shit
in my life, you know, parents getting divorced, that was
probably the hardest thing I've gone through. And I've always
tried to remain middle of the road on all of that,
and I've always tried to just be a good human.
(26:19):
That's how I am with my race, right, Like, yes,
I am fifty and fifty, and so you're not going
to see me lean into one other side more so
than other and disrespect one side more, you know than another.
Like no, I love who I am. I love my parents,
and but people don't realize that, you know, I do
(26:41):
have a little bit more skin tone than let's say,
Ryan Blaney. You know, I didn't mean to pick probably
the whitest dude in the garage, but just so yeah, yeah, yeah,
but you know, we are labeled first as a black driver.
You know, media is not saying the biracial kid, they're
not saying that they're they're yeah, you know, and it's
(27:03):
like that would help maybe, but that's just that's just
how the world is.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I mean, I don't even know if that I feel
like that context would would if if somebody is obsessed
is like obsessed with your identity, They're always going to
be obsessed with your identity. The things that I found
more impressive about the departure from that is like we
live in a world where people don't really talk to
each other anymore if they disagree about something, Like I
always say, like I love you know, I love getting
(27:29):
like four beers with my very conservative friends and just
talking because nobody does that I should not have seven
beers with them because that's when you start fighting. But
but you, like I was, I think I and a
lot of people are very impressed that, like, you know,
in a world where people don't talk to each other,
you called for NASCAR to band the Confederate flag. NASCAR agreed,
(27:50):
Like what were what were those private conversations?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Like yeah, I mean it was you know that that
wasn't in a private conversation. That was business that I did. Yeah, yeah,
you know, And I'm saying like that wasn't I just
if you don't know me, and a lot of people
that probably listen to your podcasts don't know me, that
I don't really hold back. You know, if if if
it's the right day and it's the right temperature outside,
(28:14):
and you ask me the right question, You're going to
get an answer. And that just you know, I seen
a lot of tweets after the George Floyd stuff where
I stood up for what I believed in, and on
the after American side, the afric American community was like, yeah,
I don't know if I'll ever be a part of
NASCAR because you know, we ride by the racetracks and
(28:35):
there's Confederate flags. You see it in all the videos.
You know, they represent it, and that's something that that
hurts us. That's that brings a lot of hurt and
pain to our ancestors. And I'm like, you know, I've
never paid attention that go back to what we talked
about earlier, the history. Yeah, never never looked at it. Yeah,
there was hundreds of Confederate flags in the garad. I
(28:57):
did not pay attention to it. You know, that's not
me being politically correct, right, I didn't give a damn
no that.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I mean, that's fascinating for fans who maybe did know
the history because NASCAR was founded by Bill Frantz, who
supported Governor Wallace, who was pro Jim Crow. So if
you don't, if you know the history of the sport,
you've never been to a race and you're seeing Confederate
flags when you drive by, I can definitely understand why
they might be like, mister Wallace, what's the deal?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Right? And so I was asked, you know, an interview,
and I was like, you know, I think a good
move to continue to move the needle for our sport.
We talk about how do we change the demographic. I've
been asked that question for so many years. Yeah, and
that seemed like low hanging fruit. It's like, hey, we
have a whole demographic here that is eager to come
out to a race, but a symbol, a flag is
(29:47):
keeping them back, a symbol of hatred. And we're going
to go, you know, to the end of time arguing
that it's heritage over eight. But you have to put
yourself in everybody else's shoes. I have no problem doing that,
but some people don't, and they hang on to the
heritage and It's tough because you know, you can't please everybody,
(30:13):
but I thought that was a massive moment for us
in our sport too, officially get rid of it. And
what's crazy is Dale Junior called four years prior, you know, man,
that was not a big deal when he asked for it.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I think you're right. I think the majority of people
listening would not have had exposure to NASCAR before, and
so even just hearing this would floor a lot of people.
What do you mean even the heritage over hate conversation
that they might not even be exposed to, Like I
can say as a fan of the sport, even when
the flag was there, it was very surreal because if
(30:55):
you grow up outside of New York City, like to me,
the most racist place I've ever lived was Los Angeles,
and part of that's probably because I was just one
of the few people of color in the film industry
twenty years ago. But there hasn't been a more welcome place.
Let me rephrase that the top ten most welcome places.
I would put a NASCAR track in that list in
terms of what it feels like, but then you the
(31:16):
visual dichotomy of that is not at all that right.
If I took a picture of this place that I
feel welcome. Yeah, yeah, it'd be like, oh, yes, there's
no way that you So I feel like you're right
about and you know, Dale obviously was right. But if
these symbols are are restricting people from this, it's got
(31:37):
to go. One thing I want to ask you about
is this lawsuit that you and your team just came
out of with NASCAR. So back in twenty twenty four,
your team twenty three eleven Racing, which is owned by
Michael Jordan, Denny Hamlin, and Curtis Poke, and another team
for Remoter Sports, filed an antitrust lawsuit against NASCAR, which
(31:58):
is of course owned by the original France family, and
the lawsuit accused NASCAR of a couple of things, maintaining
a monopoly over premier stock car racing and abusing that
power using a non transparent revenue sharing model that kept
teams dependent and unprofitable, retaliating against twenty three to eleven
and front Row Motorsports for refusing to sign an agreement
(32:21):
between the teams and NASCAR called the New Charter Deal. Now,
this lawsuit was a huge deal because it was the
first serious challenge to the France family's control over NASCAR,
and it put them at risk of losing hundreds of
millions of dollars. I texted you after the verdict or
after the settlement because I knew. I'm like, I know,
(32:43):
I can't text you in the middle being like I
hope you guys win, like, because then you can't even
like heart that text. You're like not a lot, right.
But so for people who don't know, what can you
tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah? So it's funny now, like every time we were
asked this throughout the season last year, our PR people
were just like, don't say a word, you know, rightfully,
so because whatever we could say, could you know, uh,
you know, damage our reputation and whatnot, and heard our
chances in court, and so man, it was so easy
(33:15):
for me to not give a damn about it. Again
goes back to if it's meant to be, it's meant
to be. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. If
it doesn't, okay, I'll go find a new job, okay.
And so I don't know all of the details because
again I did not give a damn. Yes, it affected
(33:37):
my livelihood. How can someone not give a damn if
it affects I don't. That's ask how I am. I
am programmed. It's weird. I'm I'm a one of one.
I'm sorry, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
It's actually very jealous of this trait thing you have.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
But they they being MJ and Curtis polk And and
Denny Hamlin, they seen things that the work continue to
do that I would say that didn't allow growth, and
they wanted change. They wanted change when they came into
(34:11):
the sport and it was time for new charter agreements
and they seen an opportunity to create said change, and
they were going to do whatever it takes to get
that change. And if it meant suing the sanctioning body,
then so be it. But they're going to stand up
and put everything on the line for their people, our
partners and the other teams, right, I mean, it's crazy
(34:35):
to think that, you know it, Two of us twenty
three eleven in front Row Motorsports were the only two
teams to stand up to NASCAR, and the other teams
were just like, hey, we don't want to be a
part of this. We love where everything's at. And then
when when the settlement happened. They're like, oh man, this
is great. It's like, yeah, yeah, I didn't do yeah right, yeah,
(34:56):
you know, thanks for the handout. And so going back
to when the team started, you know, we wanted to
be different, we wanted to bring in a change of culture.
And you know, you say those things for me, I
say those things, and you know I have some thoughts
on you know, you know what I think. I have
no idea what charter agreements are. I have no idea
(35:19):
all that stuff that the business owners see, right, And
it makes me proud and brings me a lot of
joy that I will risk anything to create change, you
know when I see it need fit and you have
leadership and ownership that will do the same thing in
a much higher magnitude, and it, you know, makes that
(35:40):
relationship I feel more solidified than anything. I remember being
in Mexico in the off seasons, Amanda and I and
my give a damn meter ramped up a little bit
because I wasn't racing. It was the off season, so
all we had to pay attention to was the hearing.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
So I was tuning in and we were going through
day four, Day five, and I was on the golf
course and my spotter, Freddy, he had texted me like, well,
it looks like we got a job for the next
couple of years. And I was like, what are you
talking about? And he was like, they just settled. And
I got chills as soon as I seen that text.
And I didn't even know it's confirmed or not. I
(36:19):
was so pumped for our leadership. Obviously, MJ is a
massive fan of the sport Denny. Everybody knows Denny h
Curtis Polk though is Is is MJ's right hand man,
and just seeing the amount of satisfaction and joy that
Curtis Polk had was just incredible to see and it
(36:41):
brought me a lot of joy, and you know, I
text him that and he just says it. It's nice
to feel vindicated, right, you know, to you know, to
know that you risk everything for something positive and to
see it come out on the right end as just
a win for everybody. So I don't know all the
details of after the fact, yeah, of what's exactly going
to change, but I've seen an interview with O'Donnell, the
(37:05):
president of NASCAR, and he talked about MJ after you know,
winning Atlanta, and he was like, you know, the tough
conversations you know have to happen sometimes, right, but the
impact that MJ brings to our sport. You know, the
things that our team is doing. You know Tyler Redick
is at this time. I know this will be aired later,
but you know he's three for three to start the season.
(37:27):
It's crazy, you know, the things that we are doing
to bring in a new face officially to our sport.
I couldn't be more proud of just being able to
play a small part or as some people say, riding
the coattails.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
More than riding the coat tails.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Literally drive, driving, driving.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Well, you got a you got a lot of love
for the team and obviously for for for you guys.
And if you're listening to this you've've never been to
a race, highly recommend it. I'm all biased here, but
it'll be a great weekend. I very much recommend it
wherever you are in the cunt. These guys have like
the long aren't you the longest season eventing sport?
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah? Yes, Valentine's Day through the first weekend of November.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
It's crazy. Bubba Wallace, thank you for joining me, man,
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Nice to see you absolutely nice to see you. Appreciate you, guys.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
That was my guest, Bubba Wallace. He's a professional NASCAR
driver and the winner of three races in the NASCAR
Cup Series. Here we Go Again as a production of
iHeart Podcasts and Snaffoo Media in association with New Metric Media.
Our executive producers are me Kal Penn, Ed Helms, Mike Falbo,
Alissa Martino, Andy Kim, Pat Kelly, Chris Kelly, and Dylan Fagan.
(38:40):
Meghan tan is our producer and writer. Dave Shumka is
our producer and editor. Our consulting producer is Romin Borsolino.
Tory Smith is our associate producer. Theme music by Chris Kelly,
logo by Matt Gosson, Legal review from Daniel Welsh, Caroline
Johnson and Megan Halson. Special thanks to Glenn Basner, Isaac Dunham,
Adam Horn, Lane Kline and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but
(39:03):
especially Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman and Nikki Etor. Thanks for listening. Everybody,
tell your friends write a review. All of this helps.
I appreciate you listening, and until we Go Again, I'm
Kel Penn
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